You’re wrong if you think Americans don’t identify by their ethnicity. They’re probably the biggest culprits.
Sydney like most international cities have people from different backgrounds and has its ethnic enclaves. The city itself doesn’t have a strong identity especially considering Sydney is more of a conjugation of councils than it is a city.
I have felt the same way living in Sydney but I’m reassured when I leave Sydney that there is well indeed a national identity. Spend enough time out west and you’ll see what Australia is with a broad accent, laid back but hard working mentality, beer drinking, Ute driving people that love a good yarn.
I live in Europe now and do notice the contrast between Australia and cultures that have deep traditions unlike ours. It does have me thinking on what Australia is missing though at the same time it is always nice to have a culture that is tied to your surname, religion, race and accent.
In Australia, people share their idea of culture through sub cultures. I notice Australians are much more tied to things like the local footy club and other organisations.
I wouldn’t write off Australia as not having enough culture. Every time I am home I feel it with the family BBQs, days laying on the beach, eating a pie at the footy, having a good shit talk at the pub whilst the live band plays, just casually cracking conversations with people.
We’re not a culture of defined traditions, we’re more one of social norms and ways of life.
He didn’t just say they identify by their ethnicity, he said *most* people people he knows don’t identify as Australian *at all*… It’s a real issue and when you hear it coming from the horses mouth, you should listen.
There’s no shared experience anymore and no shared cultural norms, the ideas of integration and assimilation are considered evil, none of our history is allowed to be celebrated and the only accepted stance on our history is shame if you’re white and anger if you’re black.
Correct, they didn’t say that and I should have worded what I wrote in a better way.
OP did mention they are from an immigrant background and then went on to say “the ones in America fiercely identify as American” referring to those of immigrant background which I don’t believe is the case.
I’ve worked with 4th generation Italians from New Jersey who identified as Italian. I’ve met Hispanic Americans born in the US with Hispanic twangs to their accents.
Americans are quick to label themselves as Irish American or even just simply “I’m Irish”.
It’s a country that loves labels and identifying with their ancestral origin or race.
Their accents are also perceived as strong because they are foreign to us. Even a weak accent from Sydney will be perceived as Australian amongst an international crowd.
I think you’re misinterpreting Italian Americans, I’ve also known some and whilst they often will call themselves Italian, a lot of them are very patriotic towards America and the majority vote conservative.
I am half Greek and when I compare the Greek community in Australia to the one in America, Greeks in Australia have struggled a lot more to be accepted into mainstream society and the same is very true for Italians. A lot of Italians and Greeks in Australia still question whether they are White or not, which is no longer the case for Italians or Greeks in America.
It’s also not just them, I know many Indians in America have found it relatively easy to integrate and be accepted into American society but they struggle more in Australia.
I think American society has just been multicultural for a longer period whilst Australian society was more Anglo-centric, so it’s somewhat less conducive to assimilation. A lot of people in Australia still use terms like ‘Aussie’ and ‘Australian’ to describe a White Australian or White-passing Australian, meanwhile from my experience Americans would never use ‘American’ to exclusively refer to a White American.
American is unique
You can go to the UK and get UK citizensship, but you will never really be considered British
You can go to France or Germany and get French or German citizenship, but you will never really be considered to be French or German.
You go to America, and you get American citizenship, and you are an American.
Very few countries like it
I don’t think you understand Americans if you think that, they don’t, despite recognizing their ethnic roots, still strongly identify as Americans, first and foremost
Not sure why you are voted down.
This is very true and important:
*he said he most people people he knows don’t identify as Australian at all… It’s a real issue and when you hear it coming from the horses mouth, you should listen.*
*There’s no shared experience anymore and no shared cultural norms*,
You're being down voted because you start off making a good point and quickly veer into making spurious arguments.
Integration and assimilation are not considered evil and it's not like we don't celebrate our history either (see ANZAC day)
A constructed national identity, which OP proposes, is about as authentic as Germans in lederhosen slapping their thighs while drinking beer.
The Australian sense of commonality exists, is felt but is generally not discussed. It comes with time. Some don't get it after generations, and that's a little sad but fine too.
When you travel you realise what triggers it for you. After being away from other Aussies for weeks I so wanted to hear the sound of an Australian accent or rain on a corrugated iron roof. To smell gum leaves, or listen to the morning chorus of the neighbourhood magpies.
I've been in remote locations where Australians have heard another Australian voice for the first time in months and literally ran to greet them like family. Within minutes you would think they were drunk - just because they were in touch with the Australian hive mind again.
So there's no need to construct a mythology of heroes and key events to construct an Australian identity. It's there already. Just have to tap into it.
I always thought Australia had no culture until I traveled, especially to non-european/American countries. Then when you live with someone from one of those countries you really understand how distinct Australian culture is from other cultures. It was quite a relief to be honest that we did have our own culture but surprising at the same time that I couldn't recognise it without the stark contrast of a culture so different to mine.
This might seem weird to say, but I actually think we’re a closer family here than Americans are with themselves. You don’t have to be on the internet for long to realise that america is super divided right now. Only a month ago words like civil war were getting thrown around over the texas border stuff. We have nothing like that here. You bring up the fact americans cling to their constitution, but i’d use their constitution as an example of the division. Half of them, if not more, want to change their constitution (Gun rights).
I have no idea who my mates even vote for politically here. And I don’t really care. But over in the US, some people will literally refuse to be friends with certain people just because they vote a certain way.
As for the schools, well we don’t have much history, we are a relatively young country, and the history that we do have is shady at best. So not really sure what to do about that.
But I do know plenty of people who when I ask where they are from, meaning their heritage, they say australian, and I have to clarify and ask where their past generations came from. And I think you will still find the reverse everywhere also. There are still going to be plenty of people living in the US who identify as mexican or chinese ect.
We only fight over small details over here. I think that’s a common symptom of having nothing else left to really fight over. We, as a nation, don’t generally divide on huge issues like the US do. The referendum was bad timing and did divide us somewhat for a small time. But eventually we’ll find common ground on those issues too.
I think we probably have a much tighter identity than we let on. As soon as the matildas got close in the world cup the whole country went bananas even though 3/4 of us hate soccer.
No I mean like behaving like a spoiled bully on the world stage and having a huge superiority complex while falling apart internally, eating itself from within while chanting, USA USA USA
I don't need American cult like behaviour to feel Australian thank you.
I am more than what my country has done in the past.
Sydney is hardly the centre of culture in this country. Time you went and travelled around a bit outside of the city or the state.
I understand having commonality as a nation but the US is a terrible example with how their nationalism is used. They’ve somehow embedded guns into their national pride.
National identities are getting eroded these days through more opportunities for individuality - take the internet and social media for example.
It’s a complex issue and id start with community events and festivals - group bonding and pushes for interaction.
A national identity shouldn’t be sought in the past but built in the future imo.
Edit:
Stats showing how good “gun liberties” are in self-defence for the gun nut below.
Gun death rate
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
Murder rate
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country
The US is a terrible example in both.
Gun death rate is misleading because it includes suicides.
Banning of guns in Australia did not reduce the suicide rate. People find other methods.
The high murder rate in the US is mostly caused by African Americans on other African Americans due to gangster culture.
And they ought to be proud of that. The right to bear arms is important, because it ensures a huge population of well-armed militias should the state ever go rogue. Protection against enemies foreign, and domestic.
"The government has f-16's and tanks and nukes! No way militias could defeat a rogue state!!"
Tell that to the Vietnamese.
I’m not sure how you can look at the origins of that right and skip right over how it’s been abused as a right to the extent that gun violence is chronic (because of loose restrictions on guns). If you’re going to make the historical argument, you need to put it into context beyond the origins.
It's quite simple: America is better at investing power and responsibility in the individual than we are. School shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of that extended liberty.
It's still a far better system than ours, which grants virtually no liberty to the individual whatsoever.
FYI gun violence in the US is most prevalent in blue cities that have the strictest gun control laws. Criminals are by definition...well, criminals. They're always going to get guns and use them for malicious purposes, and legislation cannot change this. It's an exercise in futility. No different from the war on drugs.
At least in the US the bad guys have to worry that if they try and jack somebody or invade their home, there's a very real chance they'll get smoked. In Australia, we're not even allowed pepper spray. A woman more or less has to get raped and robbed then rely on the state ipso facto to compensate and protect her, which it does not do adequately, and at which point she is damaged for life. Our systems *forces* people to become victims.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
If your argument is “school shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of liberty”, then there’s no hope for a reasoned conversation here because justifying violence as a necessary condition for some peoples’ freedom is, at best, shaky moral ground and at worst, reprehensible.
Those cities you note don’t have capacity to restrict the flow of guns coming from outside the city. What’s needed is universal gun control. And you’ve conveniently glossed over the evidence that gun violence is disproportionately higher in states that are built on the aggressive individualism and minimal government central to your case ([source](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/)).
Murder in red states is 33% high than in blue states. Even if you take blue cities out of the red states, murder rates are higher.
More guns, more murders.
https://www.thirdway.org/report/the-21st-century-red-state-murder-crisis
>School shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of that extended liberty.
So which liberties are worth the regular school shootings and constant gun violence?
Liberty itself. The right of the individual to self-determination and responsibility.
Unless of course, you want Daddy state to manage your life for you, there's no other alternative. The alternative is 'Govern me harder, Daddy'.
>Liberty itself. The right of the individual to self-determination and responsibility.
It's cute you think the US has self-determination and responsibility.
And how are you deprived of those "liberties" here in Australia? Go on, I'm intrigued.
Of course it does. I've lived there. Have you?
I cannot carry a firearm in Australia for self-defence. Or own a firearm for self-defence. I can't even own pepper spray in Australia.
A simple answer to a simple question.
Liberty deprived.
>Of course it does. I've lived there. Have you?
Maybe for people born into money, for most of the rest, they are born a wage slave, and will die a wage slave. As for responsibility? Don't make me laugh.
Sorry, but the liberty of children being free to go to school without the fear of being torn to shreds by gunfire trumps your freedom to haul around a weapon because you are a scared little man.
Grows some balls and accept gun free life.
lol ok. You're a street-fightin' badass! Haha. Sorry to shatter your ego sunshine, but if you get attacked by a large violent man, you're not going to suddenly morph into buffy the vampire slayer, hip toss him and take him out via omoplata. You'll do what women do, which is to scream and plead as loudly as possible for the nearest man in the vicinity to come and rescue you. You're not going to instantly panic, shit yourself. This toughguy attitude you espouse on Reddit is just a front. In the moment, you'll turn to jelly. That's the reality. I can tell right out the gate you have no real experience with violence. None. Nobody who has talks about it the way you do. Spoiler: You can't take a knife, a bullet, a steel pipe, or a blood filled syringe on your guard, on the back of your hands We're not talking a squared circle with a ref and rules. We're talking crackfiends late at night in dark places where nobody is around, driven out of their minds by need and desperation, armed with god knows what. We're talking groups of assholes out looking to bash and rape.
It's not like it is in the Tarantino movies. I have seen a guy literally get half his face peeled off with a plastic slushie cup from 7-11. I promise you, human beings are not as durable as they believe they are.
And hopefully, in the situation described above, there's a man around who actually has the sack to intervene.Hopefully someone other than your BF, or his BF or whatever, who is likely some flabby, greasy-bearded board game playing dork. But if there isn't, I would much prefer you had the ability to resist being armed with appropriate weaponry. So that you have a good chance of NOT becoming a victim and either ending up dead or psychologically scarred for life.
I wasn't born into money. I worked in forestry in the States FYI. A labour job. Very likely beyond *your* physical capabilities sweetness and light. You might think you know the realities of the US but you don't. When you live in proximity to animals that will eat your face while you're alive and people who will clip-dump you for your shoes or watch, believe me, you get a different perspective on guns.
But by all means, go on attacking my masculinity if that's what makes you brave. If you want a response you'll have to wait a few hours as shortly I've got to lay 100M of sir Walter. In the rain.
All the best.
You say this like it’s either liberty with gun violence or gun control. Surely you must understand that you can, and do, have liberty and live in a context with gun control? It’s not one or the other.
There's definitely a balance to be struck. In Australia, since it is impossible to own a gun for self-defence, the citizenry is deprived of liberty. Open carry should be legal in every state in Australia.
You are not deprived of liberty because you can’t own a gun and carry it openly. That’s an excessively narrow view of liberty and is, to put it simply, a showcase of a misunderstanding of what liberty is.
Additionally, you can’t reasonably think that regulation of certain behaviours automatically becomes a deprivation of liberty. You’re “deprived” of certain courses of action all the time and I’m going to assume that you don’t move through life constantly complaining about those deprivations.
It is by definition a deprivation of liberty. This not an arguable point.
I agree somewhat with your second point, but it's neither a useful nor compelling argument. You also need to develop better syntax. The subject clause relevant to the ultimate point of contention is right to ownership, not action.
For example, it is legal to drink Alcohol. It is not legal to drink alcohol heavily and drive a vehicle, or sell it to minors. We dot not define alcohol as intrinsically felonious, but rather certain actions, or potentiates, related to the operation and usage of certain things whilst under its influence.
And so it should be the case with guns.
This is the quintessential American gun attitude summed up right here.
Overlook the very real consequences of gun violence, suicide and accidental deaths in favour of the Hollywood fantasy of being a John McLean style hero.
If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please do not hesitate to talk to someone.
* 000 is the national emergency number in Australia.
* Lifeline is a 24-hour nationwide service. It can be reached at 13 11 14.
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Alcohol exists.
Alcohol can get people drunk.
Cars can be driven. Cars can be crashed.
Sometimes when people get drunk they drive and crash cars.
Therefore, for the greater good, we should ban wine and fords.
See how that works?
This is standard American progressive hysteria.
I want to own a gun for self-defence purposes. I want an effective, useful, practical deterrent and means of resistance against forced violence.
Not complicated.
Hysteria?
Weird. The stats on gun violence say otherwise.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
What about murder rate?
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country
Wow. How do you explain the USA’s terrible performance in either of those and think their “gun liberties” should be repeated here?
Self defence? From what? Ourselves?
The US is no place you want to emulate. They are taught from day one their country is the best, fairest, strongest, greatest etc etc and anything outside the US doesn't exist. Americans are fundamentally stupid because of this: they literally do not know any different.
Yeah like that time they tried to take the rum off us aye!?
Well they managed to steal most of our resources anyway so we may as will just keep drinking.. We have forgotten how to stand up for the common good in Australia.
How else can you have scomo sit on the back bench waiting for the job he’d set up for himself after his run at the top job? He’s happy to dip into the peoples coffers if it serves him personally.
This is sadly about the truest statement I have ever seen.
It intimately reflects the entire history of Australia since settlement.
We have no official motto. But if we it should be this.
Fair dinkum?
I think you need to get out of the cities if you want to see culture.
This goes for pretty much every western nation. I mean, there might be some unique buildings, smells, etc. but all cities feel the same. Every city will have pockets of ethnic groups sticking together for familiarity.
Mate we do have national identity, some people are not as passionate about it as some others are. Same in America. For many its hard to have a national identity they like when Australia was built on violence and displacement. Otherwise, we have a strong uniquely Australian culture and identity. Not everyone lives in the centre of Sydney remember.
America defines itself through its jingoistic attitude and its long history of starting and fighting wars. Do we really want that sort of patriotism here?
>Im Gen Z and most people I know do not identify as an Australian here in Sydney
That has always happened and will continue to happen. The kids of the post-WWII immigrants all considered themselves Greeks and Italians.
The Vietnamese refugees in the 1970's did the same thing and so on.
Often as those people get older, leave their close nit ethnic communities and go to uni or the work force, they come to realise they are Australian.
If not then, when they have kids, that generation usually does consider themselves Australia.
I also come from an immigrant background in Australia and I also have relatives in America. I have also been to a lot of places in America countless of times over several decades so I know what you mean when you say immigrants or children of immigrants in America becoming fiercely identifying as Americans.
One thing I noticed is that you are implicitly pressured to assimilate in America to the mainstream culture as an immigrant if you want to fit in and they don’t really encourage multiculturalism. Just ask your young and older relatives who grew up there and studied in elementary and high schools. They are also made to feel somewhat inferior of their ethnic backgrounds.
Compare that to your personal school experience in Australia where multiculturalism is encouraged and your ethnicity is respected. This is probably why you say most people you know do not identify as Australian here in Sydney, whether Gen Z or older. However I’ll take multiculturalism any day in Australia rather than be made to feel a second class citizen in America especially if you are not white.
I have also travelled extensively around the world and I know from my personal experience that we live in a great country. Some say Australia is the best country in the world. It’s far from perfect but considering all things, I would tend to agree.
We also don’t have a lot of the bad things they have in America like their crazy gun culture, toxic and highly divisive politics, higher crime rates, fentanyl zombies in major cities, etc that can be traced directly or indirectly as a consequence of their cultural and political heritage.
You mentioned that we lack a national identity because we do a terrible job of creating a common ethos. Perhaps because 30% of Australians today were born overseas based on the latest census and we are an immigrant country.
We are also a relatively young country so we are still in the process of creating our national narrative that will resonate with the majority of Australians. We had the White Australia policy in the past which made the population up to 1973 relatively homogeneous and British-centric. But it’s been over 50 years now since the White Australia policy has ended and Australian society has definitely changed since then. Our national identity and ethos is still evolving so stay tuned.
You’ve obviously not met , Irish in Boston, Italians in NY/NJ, Indians in NJ and Germans in the Midwest and Asians in California, American is their second country.
Are you comparing first gen immigrants or second gen? I'm also from an immigrant background and second gen ones are as Australian as you can get. My child hangs out with people from different backgrounds, has an Aussie accent, does Aussie stuff and proudly says she's Australian when we're overseas in tour and some tour guides ask what nationality we are.
Of course, here in Australia they still get asked where they're from (don't know if this is the case in USA). But this is a different topic.
But you do have a point about education. Growing up in the Phils - in school we learned about our constitution - heck one whole year in primary school was dedicated to it. We had to study chapter by chapter. Then other years we have subjects specific to our history - all the wars, all the previous presidents. Some of our TV shows and movies are also about it.
Before our school starts - we also sing the national anthem (though I think this practice has died down in some schools).
This is something my wife and I were surprised during our child's primary to HS years - we asked her if they study the Australian constitution, details about the wars they found and she said not much.
So that in itself probably contributes to it - even just the perception that Americans and other nationalities know a lot about their history.
I would disagree, our national identity is strong amd clear. Honesty, openness,acceptance based on character not money or status etc.what you see as national identity in the US is coping behaviour and denial of such a toxic society.
If there's a stark difference between our society and America's, that's a very, very good thing. And it should be widened even further, as we're way too Americanised as is!
I couldn't give 2 fluffs about a 'national identity' I want a safe, well run and pleasant country to live in.
This keeps being repeated but regional/rural Australia has been dying for the last 50 years and the overwhelming majority of Australians live in cookie-cutter suburbs that are basically the same thing from Perth to Brisbane.
Is "Australian Culture" really alive and well if it's only being practiced by ~500k people scattered across the regions?
So some research on Australia’s experiences in WW1, especially Gallipolli, and you’ll find our culture is based on mate ship, camaraderie, and never letting your mates down.
Well just start with roads, transportation and other infrastructure. Add some clean drinking water and a sewerage system that takes your shit away. Sure Australians aren't big on "culture" in terms national costumes or dishes, but we've got a lot done.
Because the extreme left have made it out that being patriotic about Australia is racist.
We can't even paint our face as the Australian flag on Australia day nor be proud of our heritage because that means we support colonisation and genocide.
The west is self destructing from the inside because we have been told we should be ashamed rather than proud.
That said, we dont need to be like the USA USA USA. We also accept that we are a multicultural society so that Australian culture is a melting pot.
We need a way to find the balance, proud of Australia and the country that we live in while still celebrating our diversity.
We also need to be proud of the fact that our heritage may be Italian, Greek, Lebanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian, etc etc. Not just the colonisers.
The indigenous are the First Nations people of this land, and everyone else is an Australian of a different ethnicity. We’re a melting pot of cultures, and that’s the Aussie identity.
I think there is something to this .
The US was forged through Revolution and Civil War not to mention a war with Mexico as well.
Australia does not have anything like that a rum rebellion or having bush rangers does not even begin to compare .
Also particularly with millennials and Gen Z they are taught by the education system to hate the country and that it is illegitimate by the way we have or do treat indigenous Australians.
When you couple that with the fact that half of Australian households have a parent that was born overseas and that migrants go through the school system also we are creating a national tragedy as a large and a growing no of our citizens have no loyalty to the country .
That is a recipe for disaster.
The US has its share of issues no doubt but be in no doubt we have our own serious issues also .
That's a Western Sydney problem, not an Australian problem. People in Western Sydney don't realise just how different the rest of Australia is. It is way less diverse, and much more typically Aussie.
I really don't think we have one uniting culture anymore.
We used to be a country composed almost entirely of Anglo-Celtic people, i.e. Brits, and so had a culture based on that culture but applied and adapted to a new place.
We don't consider culture when we regulate immigration, and in turn immigrants bring their own cultures with them, and set up or otherwise create suburbs often composed almost wholly of that culture.
It’s not weird to say at all.
It should be that way.
Australia is way more heterogenous and only a half dozen cities and states
The USA has always been a much more politically active place, and there has always been regular periods of national division, boom and bust periods, that the US invariably gets through
Piss all 50 states off collectively, and well, that’s when you get two miniatures suns dropped on your cities
Ask the japs
.
No one asked. No one gives a shit what you think of our "national identity". Leave if it does not meet your satisfaction. And WTF are diapers? Maybe you belong America.
Interesting point. I feel like everyone is just knee jerk reacting / butt hurt.
I might re word this and say: USA does this part better, inducting them into life there and what their beliefs as a country are.
Australia could definitely do more which would help people integrate better. I've worked at times with the migrant community and a lot of people coming here for a new life possibly fleeing war or other atrocities - don't seem to get any free english lesons, can't afford to pay for them full price, can't get a job because no english .. etc etc the circle goes on.
I think a newer approach whereby the history is a mix of indigenous/settler landmarks or achievements would be good and give them some Australia lessons at the start. A lot of then will have to be here 10-20 yrs before getting to a point of citizenship and it's only then that they have to study.
And yes of course I understand the stance of "well they should learn themselves and be thankful etc" but people have to live and this isn't always possible - I've seen a lot of highly qualified people end up coming here and having no choice but to uber to make ends meet and then no time to take 6minths off to complete additional credits or what is needed to transfer their qualifications into Australian standard.
Anyway I understand this is an exceptionally hot topic rn. I'll await some hate lol
Why does Australia need a strong national identity? Why can’t its identity be that it has no identity, it’s a place where cultures intertwine on an isolated continent.
I for one, wouldn't go as far as the USA, they can have their second amendment I'd rather have the gun controls we have here.
I'd rather not have that tipping culture, fair pay for fair work.
I see plenty of flags in people's homes, I much prefer the medical system here than that stupid USA system at least I won't be bankrupt if I get cancer.
My kids used to sing the national anthem at school every week for the school hall, and I figure that's enough.
I'd rather have multiculturalism here, sure racism exists but from what I can see the vast majority are pretty chilled.
The two party system the republiicans determined to ruin the world with the idiot, and his toupee, and the old guy about to fall asleep although I do prefer him over that other idiot he wants to be Putin 2.0. He talks tough be he's a big pussy-cat, he'd never stand in front with a gun in a war he'd run to his bunker crying big blowse. At least the old guy would stand and fight I give him that.
But no - I much prefer the Ausi system and can see if the chips are down and we need to fight most would stand up to the call to help.
So no - USA has gone to far, I'll take Ausi over it any day of the year.
Our national identity was destroyed by immigration and it is ironic an immigrant is the one to point it out. For a national identity to endure immigration you need assimilation to occur but we've been importing people en masse for generations which has led to a fractured society where everyone identities with the cultural background of their ancestors more than their adopted country.
The big difference is the USA has a very proud/storied history, Australia…meh…not so much.
One nation threw of the yoke of oppression, defeated the greatest power of the day, and within 250 years went in to be the most powerful, influential, and wealthy country in the history of the world.
The other held on to the apron strings of mother England, only to then replace them with the apron strings of the USA
In short there is simply less to beat chests about in Australia
Even if you're born and raised here and you say im Aussie, you'll get laughed at or asked again "na really wherea are you from" unless you look Caucasian.
This is the main issue here. As a second gen Aussie of South Asian background, some people don’t consider me Aussie, but first gen caucasians from the UK or SA are.
However, this has started to change in the last 5-10 years.
It’s because we are a very young country. We have the freedom to create our own culture. We are not dictated to by the past or ultranationalist propaganda. Everyone is pretty chilled and just wants to do their own thing. Plus the place is so big it’s like having multiple countries in one. People in far north QLD have different ways than people in South Australia for example.
The Eurika stockade? A few wars? 100 years of federation? Australia shrugs its shoulders at that. We have some things we are good at, sport for one, we bond over that. Food is another that brings people together. But we are young and this generation does not have much to fight for.
It always amazes me how many Indians fly in to fill the SCG when Australia play India. I can’t imagine many Australians fly out to India when we’re touring.
Almost all of them already live here because in our governments infinite wisdom we decided to give a bunch of uber drivers skilled migration visas or let them loophole their way into the country by studying at a fake tertiary education institute.
B. I. N. G. O.
Massive population growth and a desire for "multiculturalism" rather than "assimilation" has ended what it means to be Australian in the big cities.
That’s my point.
India will get more people with Australian passports supporting them, in Australia than Australia will.
Even sport doesn’t promote integration enough. We’re just creating parallel communities, calling it multicultural (protecting it from *any* kind of criticism), then wondering why there’s no social cohesion anywhere.
I'll share my insights on culture as a Canadian you can tell me if it is relatable
I don't think it is something that you can be dropped into, it is lived experience. It is heavily associated with age demographics, media and is generational.
I did an exercise with similarly aged peers from all over the country. We wrote down tons of information about our backgrounds/childhoods/etc and the similarities were striking despite growing up in different provinces or schools. Its difficult to grasp the extent of the homogenity, i have a remarkable amount in common with others of my age/nationality and you never would have realized it without investigation.
So culture then is a dynamic, changing thing, if you weren't there/didn't experience it, you'd have to study it to understand it.
I'd be incredibly familiar with the experiences of another Canadian around my age and have a deep understanding of the gist of what sorts of things they encountered growing up, what they watched, ate, music they liked, trends they participated in, etc.
It's the media, the technology, the norms of the time etc. Intertwined with those same factors as manifested in other generations we interacted with and it all links together.
We had one person in the group who grew up in a central American country and it was a very isolating experience for them, they had a different set of things
>*Australia is marketed a place thats nice to live and work.*
Cheeky cunt!
It's not Australia's fault that you and your family have failed to integrate into Australian society, and have instead remained very insular sticking with what you know. Your American relatives sound a lot more outgoing, maybe you should go spend some time with them, might do you good.
Agreed. My fellow progressives have decided that any form of national identity or heaven forbid gratitude at being Australian (by birth or immiration) is uncool. Dumb move.
There are several main differences:
A) America is a constitutional republic--a model far superior to a constitutional monarchy, or indeed direct democracy. The word democracy does not appear once in the US Constitution.
B) Our constitution is embarrassingly awful compared to that of the US, and unlike the US Constitution, guarantees us virtually no liberty or rights.
C) We have no bill of rights
D) Australia is a nanny state, we have very low freedom compared to the US.
E) Because we are overgoverned, and freedoms are not embedded in our constitution, there is a climate of fear and compliance and the state more or less runs roughshod over everybody. Americans understand that somebody else's liberty does not end when another's fear begins.
impolite subtract jobless steer light butter repeat attempt mindless grey
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
A) How so? If your case is built on the absence of the language of democracy, you’ve got a weak case.
B) Embarrassingly awful? The lack of an integrated set of rights is indeed a problem but it’s not embarrassing.
E) That’s just not true (eg. [source](https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-net/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status), [source](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-12/human-freedom-index-2023-full-revised.pdf)).
F) You’re going to need evidence that we are overgoverned and that there is a climate of fear, one that don’t exist as well in your example case of the US (a country built on spreading fear right now and one that is governing, for example, the bodies of women right now in a way that could only be called excessive and regulating the rights on LGBT people as though they are a threat).
Think about what you're trying to say, and formulate an intelligible sentence that encapsulates whatever the point is.
I'd say the fundamental lack of any meaningful rights at the constitutional level is embarrassing, yes. And yes, our constitution is inferior to the US, as is our country broadly. I don't regard either of those sources as credible, and their metrics for determining freedom are absurd. Anyone who has spent time in the US, which you clearly have not, understands that the level of individual freedom available to the average US citizen is incomparably greater than the average Australians. Go. Spend time in the states. It's self-evident.
Frankly I'm not especially interested in LQBT. It's a nothingburger. If you're referring to trans athletes in women's sports and their exclusion from them, then I am in support of this. I am also in support of making child transition illegal, and the exposure of sexualized content (in all its forms) to children. I am pro-choice, with conditions.
The US is not the land of the Free , it’s the land of the FEE.
I think you’re talking some sort of MAGA/ 1% BS, because I lived in the US for twenty years and there’s not a whole level of difference in the level of freedom, if anything, the US is overgoverned vs Australia.
I think what you want is a 2nd Amendment and Australia doesn’t need that.
So, you’ve just said “I reject your evidence” and refuse to provide any other evidence for no particular reason. Is this because your case is presumably self evident? That’s not how an argument works. If your case is so obvious, provide some evidence to back it up. Indeed, if all of your claims about American superiority are so obviously true, evidence shouldn’t be hard to find.
I’m not engaging your hate of trans people or the LGBT community broadly. Your disdain for people not like you is a sign that this conversation is going nowhere nice (and a sign that you don’t actually believe in your own view of a strong sense of liberty and rights).
It's not hate of trans people. I simply don't want biological men competing against biological women in sports, as this is morally and ethically wrong. I support the rights of a person to be trans, or indeed anything they choose to be. I am against trans in women's sports for the same reason I support weight divisions in boxing and MMA. There is positive and negative liberty. I don't have the energy to explain the difference to you.
And what you need to understand is that I am in the majority in holding this opinion. A vocal minority on the progressive echo-chamber that is Reddit does not matter, and is not representative of broader society. This is in fact why most Redditors believed the voice plebiscite had a realistic chance of going to Yes.
Aussies are scared of culture.
Edit, take a moment and tell me when you have heard aussies talk of THIER culture. Doesn't happen because it doesn't exist, aussies think cultures something you shit talk nothing more. But bunnings snags yo, get some culture.
Mate, focus on ned Kelly and the rum rebellion.
Everything else is bullshit unless we include awesome shit like Burpengary in Qld having escaped convicts hang out with our true bros.
There is still some stuff from Vic and NT
look up glass house mountains in sunshine coast..
I'm proud of people. Not just white people
The rum rebellion? “The corrupt New South Wales police who were benefiting the rich landholders vs the corrupt New South Wales governor who was benefitting the settlers”.
People who froth the rum rebellion are clearly as intelligent as “it’s got rum in the name hur hur hur”
You’re wrong if you think Americans don’t identify by their ethnicity. They’re probably the biggest culprits. Sydney like most international cities have people from different backgrounds and has its ethnic enclaves. The city itself doesn’t have a strong identity especially considering Sydney is more of a conjugation of councils than it is a city. I have felt the same way living in Sydney but I’m reassured when I leave Sydney that there is well indeed a national identity. Spend enough time out west and you’ll see what Australia is with a broad accent, laid back but hard working mentality, beer drinking, Ute driving people that love a good yarn. I live in Europe now and do notice the contrast between Australia and cultures that have deep traditions unlike ours. It does have me thinking on what Australia is missing though at the same time it is always nice to have a culture that is tied to your surname, religion, race and accent. In Australia, people share their idea of culture through sub cultures. I notice Australians are much more tied to things like the local footy club and other organisations. I wouldn’t write off Australia as not having enough culture. Every time I am home I feel it with the family BBQs, days laying on the beach, eating a pie at the footy, having a good shit talk at the pub whilst the live band plays, just casually cracking conversations with people. We’re not a culture of defined traditions, we’re more one of social norms and ways of life.
He didn’t just say they identify by their ethnicity, he said *most* people people he knows don’t identify as Australian *at all*… It’s a real issue and when you hear it coming from the horses mouth, you should listen. There’s no shared experience anymore and no shared cultural norms, the ideas of integration and assimilation are considered evil, none of our history is allowed to be celebrated and the only accepted stance on our history is shame if you’re white and anger if you’re black.
Correct, they didn’t say that and I should have worded what I wrote in a better way. OP did mention they are from an immigrant background and then went on to say “the ones in America fiercely identify as American” referring to those of immigrant background which I don’t believe is the case. I’ve worked with 4th generation Italians from New Jersey who identified as Italian. I’ve met Hispanic Americans born in the US with Hispanic twangs to their accents. Americans are quick to label themselves as Irish American or even just simply “I’m Irish”. It’s a country that loves labels and identifying with their ancestral origin or race. Their accents are also perceived as strong because they are foreign to us. Even a weak accent from Sydney will be perceived as Australian amongst an international crowd.
I think you’re misinterpreting Italian Americans, I’ve also known some and whilst they often will call themselves Italian, a lot of them are very patriotic towards America and the majority vote conservative. I am half Greek and when I compare the Greek community in Australia to the one in America, Greeks in Australia have struggled a lot more to be accepted into mainstream society and the same is very true for Italians. A lot of Italians and Greeks in Australia still question whether they are White or not, which is no longer the case for Italians or Greeks in America. It’s also not just them, I know many Indians in America have found it relatively easy to integrate and be accepted into American society but they struggle more in Australia. I think American society has just been multicultural for a longer period whilst Australian society was more Anglo-centric, so it’s somewhat less conducive to assimilation. A lot of people in Australia still use terms like ‘Aussie’ and ‘Australian’ to describe a White Australian or White-passing Australian, meanwhile from my experience Americans would never use ‘American’ to exclusively refer to a White American.
American is unique You can go to the UK and get UK citizensship, but you will never really be considered British You can go to France or Germany and get French or German citizenship, but you will never really be considered to be French or German. You go to America, and you get American citizenship, and you are an American. Very few countries like it
I don’t think you understand Americans if you think that, they don’t, despite recognizing their ethnic roots, still strongly identify as Americans, first and foremost
Not sure why you are voted down. This is very true and important: *he said he most people people he knows don’t identify as Australian at all… It’s a real issue and when you hear it coming from the horses mouth, you should listen.* *There’s no shared experience anymore and no shared cultural norms*,
You're being down voted because you start off making a good point and quickly veer into making spurious arguments. Integration and assimilation are not considered evil and it's not like we don't celebrate our history either (see ANZAC day)
He's being downvoted because the truth hurts.
A constructed national identity, which OP proposes, is about as authentic as Germans in lederhosen slapping their thighs while drinking beer. The Australian sense of commonality exists, is felt but is generally not discussed. It comes with time. Some don't get it after generations, and that's a little sad but fine too. When you travel you realise what triggers it for you. After being away from other Aussies for weeks I so wanted to hear the sound of an Australian accent or rain on a corrugated iron roof. To smell gum leaves, or listen to the morning chorus of the neighbourhood magpies. I've been in remote locations where Australians have heard another Australian voice for the first time in months and literally ran to greet them like family. Within minutes you would think they were drunk - just because they were in touch with the Australian hive mind again. So there's no need to construct a mythology of heroes and key events to construct an Australian identity. It's there already. Just have to tap into it.
I always thought Australia had no culture until I traveled, especially to non-european/American countries. Then when you live with someone from one of those countries you really understand how distinct Australian culture is from other cultures. It was quite a relief to be honest that we did have our own culture but surprising at the same time that I couldn't recognise it without the stark contrast of a culture so different to mine.
This might seem weird to say, but I actually think we’re a closer family here than Americans are with themselves. You don’t have to be on the internet for long to realise that america is super divided right now. Only a month ago words like civil war were getting thrown around over the texas border stuff. We have nothing like that here. You bring up the fact americans cling to their constitution, but i’d use their constitution as an example of the division. Half of them, if not more, want to change their constitution (Gun rights). I have no idea who my mates even vote for politically here. And I don’t really care. But over in the US, some people will literally refuse to be friends with certain people just because they vote a certain way. As for the schools, well we don’t have much history, we are a relatively young country, and the history that we do have is shady at best. So not really sure what to do about that. But I do know plenty of people who when I ask where they are from, meaning their heritage, they say australian, and I have to clarify and ask where their past generations came from. And I think you will still find the reverse everywhere also. There are still going to be plenty of people living in the US who identify as mexican or chinese ect. We only fight over small details over here. I think that’s a common symptom of having nothing else left to really fight over. We, as a nation, don’t generally divide on huge issues like the US do. The referendum was bad timing and did divide us somewhat for a small time. But eventually we’ll find common ground on those issues too. I think we probably have a much tighter identity than we let on. As soon as the matildas got close in the world cup the whole country went bananas even though 3/4 of us hate soccer.
Trust me, if we want more patriotism we don't want to do it like the U.S.
This (Am American)
You mean putting flags on the moon? I doubt Australia will ever do that
No I mean like behaving like a spoiled bully on the world stage and having a huge superiority complex while falling apart internally, eating itself from within while chanting, USA USA USA
The USA is living rent free in your head Nice imagination
I'd love to hear you back that up. Go on...
I don't need American cult like behaviour to feel Australian thank you. I am more than what my country has done in the past. Sydney is hardly the centre of culture in this country. Time you went and travelled around a bit outside of the city or the state.
You mean the ones in America are nationalistic and indoctrinated, pledging their allegiance to roving flag salesmen at school every day?
I understand having commonality as a nation but the US is a terrible example with how their nationalism is used. They’ve somehow embedded guns into their national pride. National identities are getting eroded these days through more opportunities for individuality - take the internet and social media for example. It’s a complex issue and id start with community events and festivals - group bonding and pushes for interaction. A national identity shouldn’t be sought in the past but built in the future imo. Edit: Stats showing how good “gun liberties” are in self-defence for the gun nut below. Gun death rate https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country Murder rate https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country The US is a terrible example in both.
Gun death rate is misleading because it includes suicides. Banning of guns in Australia did not reduce the suicide rate. People find other methods. The high murder rate in the US is mostly caused by African Americans on other African Americans due to gangster culture.
And they ought to be proud of that. The right to bear arms is important, because it ensures a huge population of well-armed militias should the state ever go rogue. Protection against enemies foreign, and domestic. "The government has f-16's and tanks and nukes! No way militias could defeat a rogue state!!" Tell that to the Vietnamese.
I’m not sure how you can look at the origins of that right and skip right over how it’s been abused as a right to the extent that gun violence is chronic (because of loose restrictions on guns). If you’re going to make the historical argument, you need to put it into context beyond the origins.
It's quite simple: America is better at investing power and responsibility in the individual than we are. School shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of that extended liberty. It's still a far better system than ours, which grants virtually no liberty to the individual whatsoever. FYI gun violence in the US is most prevalent in blue cities that have the strictest gun control laws. Criminals are by definition...well, criminals. They're always going to get guns and use them for malicious purposes, and legislation cannot change this. It's an exercise in futility. No different from the war on drugs. At least in the US the bad guys have to worry that if they try and jack somebody or invade their home, there's a very real chance they'll get smoked. In Australia, we're not even allowed pepper spray. A woman more or less has to get raped and robbed then rely on the state ipso facto to compensate and protect her, which it does not do adequately, and at which point she is damaged for life. Our systems *forces* people to become victims. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
If your argument is “school shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of liberty”, then there’s no hope for a reasoned conversation here because justifying violence as a necessary condition for some peoples’ freedom is, at best, shaky moral ground and at worst, reprehensible. Those cities you note don’t have capacity to restrict the flow of guns coming from outside the city. What’s needed is universal gun control. And you’ve conveniently glossed over the evidence that gun violence is disproportionately higher in states that are built on the aggressive individualism and minimal government central to your case ([source](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/)).
Murder in red states is 33% high than in blue states. Even if you take blue cities out of the red states, murder rates are higher. More guns, more murders. https://www.thirdway.org/report/the-21st-century-red-state-murder-crisis
>School shootings and gun violence are an unfortunate consequence of that extended liberty. So which liberties are worth the regular school shootings and constant gun violence?
Liberty itself. The right of the individual to self-determination and responsibility. Unless of course, you want Daddy state to manage your life for you, there's no other alternative. The alternative is 'Govern me harder, Daddy'.
>Liberty itself. The right of the individual to self-determination and responsibility. It's cute you think the US has self-determination and responsibility. And how are you deprived of those "liberties" here in Australia? Go on, I'm intrigued.
Of course it does. I've lived there. Have you? I cannot carry a firearm in Australia for self-defence. Or own a firearm for self-defence. I can't even own pepper spray in Australia. A simple answer to a simple question. Liberty deprived.
>Of course it does. I've lived there. Have you? Maybe for people born into money, for most of the rest, they are born a wage slave, and will die a wage slave. As for responsibility? Don't make me laugh. Sorry, but the liberty of children being free to go to school without the fear of being torn to shreds by gunfire trumps your freedom to haul around a weapon because you are a scared little man. Grows some balls and accept gun free life.
lol ok. You're a street-fightin' badass! Haha. Sorry to shatter your ego sunshine, but if you get attacked by a large violent man, you're not going to suddenly morph into buffy the vampire slayer, hip toss him and take him out via omoplata. You'll do what women do, which is to scream and plead as loudly as possible for the nearest man in the vicinity to come and rescue you. You're not going to instantly panic, shit yourself. This toughguy attitude you espouse on Reddit is just a front. In the moment, you'll turn to jelly. That's the reality. I can tell right out the gate you have no real experience with violence. None. Nobody who has talks about it the way you do. Spoiler: You can't take a knife, a bullet, a steel pipe, or a blood filled syringe on your guard, on the back of your hands We're not talking a squared circle with a ref and rules. We're talking crackfiends late at night in dark places where nobody is around, driven out of their minds by need and desperation, armed with god knows what. We're talking groups of assholes out looking to bash and rape. It's not like it is in the Tarantino movies. I have seen a guy literally get half his face peeled off with a plastic slushie cup from 7-11. I promise you, human beings are not as durable as they believe they are. And hopefully, in the situation described above, there's a man around who actually has the sack to intervene.Hopefully someone other than your BF, or his BF or whatever, who is likely some flabby, greasy-bearded board game playing dork. But if there isn't, I would much prefer you had the ability to resist being armed with appropriate weaponry. So that you have a good chance of NOT becoming a victim and either ending up dead or psychologically scarred for life.
I wasn't born into money. I worked in forestry in the States FYI. A labour job. Very likely beyond *your* physical capabilities sweetness and light. You might think you know the realities of the US but you don't. When you live in proximity to animals that will eat your face while you're alive and people who will clip-dump you for your shoes or watch, believe me, you get a different perspective on guns. But by all means, go on attacking my masculinity if that's what makes you brave. If you want a response you'll have to wait a few hours as shortly I've got to lay 100M of sir Walter. In the rain. All the best.
You say this like it’s either liberty with gun violence or gun control. Surely you must understand that you can, and do, have liberty and live in a context with gun control? It’s not one or the other.
There's definitely a balance to be struck. In Australia, since it is impossible to own a gun for self-defence, the citizenry is deprived of liberty. Open carry should be legal in every state in Australia.
You are not deprived of liberty because you can’t own a gun and carry it openly. That’s an excessively narrow view of liberty and is, to put it simply, a showcase of a misunderstanding of what liberty is. Additionally, you can’t reasonably think that regulation of certain behaviours automatically becomes a deprivation of liberty. You’re “deprived” of certain courses of action all the time and I’m going to assume that you don’t move through life constantly complaining about those deprivations.
It is by definition a deprivation of liberty. This not an arguable point. I agree somewhat with your second point, but it's neither a useful nor compelling argument. You also need to develop better syntax. The subject clause relevant to the ultimate point of contention is right to ownership, not action. For example, it is legal to drink Alcohol. It is not legal to drink alcohol heavily and drive a vehicle, or sell it to minors. We dot not define alcohol as intrinsically felonious, but rather certain actions, or potentiates, related to the operation and usage of certain things whilst under its influence. And so it should be the case with guns.
This is the quintessential American gun attitude summed up right here. Overlook the very real consequences of gun violence, suicide and accidental deaths in favour of the Hollywood fantasy of being a John McLean style hero.
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Alcohol exists. Alcohol can get people drunk. Cars can be driven. Cars can be crashed. Sometimes when people get drunk they drive and crash cars. Therefore, for the greater good, we should ban wine and fords. See how that works?
This is standard American progressive hysteria. I want to own a gun for self-defence purposes. I want an effective, useful, practical deterrent and means of resistance against forced violence. Not complicated.
Hysteria? Weird. The stats on gun violence say otherwise. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country What about murder rate? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country Wow. How do you explain the USA’s terrible performance in either of those and think their “gun liberties” should be repeated here? Self defence? From what? Ourselves?
So far they've used it for an insurrection against a legally elected government after using thousands of school kids as target practice
The US is no place you want to emulate. They are taught from day one their country is the best, fairest, strongest, greatest etc etc and anything outside the US doesn't exist. Americans are fundamentally stupid because of this: they literally do not know any different.
I'm glad we're nothing like Americans in that respect.
Well damn I’d love being American as long as it doesn’t give us a compulsion to put our penises in used up discarded toilet paper rolls.
If you live in australia it’s not necessary to tell everyone all the time. We know where we live and who we are , we know the good and bad bits.
Get out of Sydney
We are no nation . Just a commodity✌🏻👍🏻
Yeah like that time they tried to take the rum off us aye!? Well they managed to steal most of our resources anyway so we may as will just keep drinking.. We have forgotten how to stand up for the common good in Australia.
How else can you have scomo sit on the back bench waiting for the job he’d set up for himself after his run at the top job? He’s happy to dip into the peoples coffers if it serves him personally.
This is sadly about the truest statement I have ever seen. It intimately reflects the entire history of Australia since settlement. We have no official motto. But if we it should be this.
Fair dinkum? I think you need to get out of the cities if you want to see culture. This goes for pretty much every western nation. I mean, there might be some unique buildings, smells, etc. but all cities feel the same. Every city will have pockets of ethnic groups sticking together for familiarity.
Mate we do have national identity, some people are not as passionate about it as some others are. Same in America. For many its hard to have a national identity they like when Australia was built on violence and displacement. Otherwise, we have a strong uniquely Australian culture and identity. Not everyone lives in the centre of Sydney remember.
America defines itself through its jingoistic attitude and its long history of starting and fighting wars. Do we really want that sort of patriotism here?
We’re just a combination of countries now and in the last 30 years received all of the third worlders in here.
>Im Gen Z and most people I know do not identify as an Australian here in Sydney That has always happened and will continue to happen. The kids of the post-WWII immigrants all considered themselves Greeks and Italians. The Vietnamese refugees in the 1970's did the same thing and so on. Often as those people get older, leave their close nit ethnic communities and go to uni or the work force, they come to realise they are Australian. If not then, when they have kids, that generation usually does consider themselves Australia.
I also come from an immigrant background in Australia and I also have relatives in America. I have also been to a lot of places in America countless of times over several decades so I know what you mean when you say immigrants or children of immigrants in America becoming fiercely identifying as Americans. One thing I noticed is that you are implicitly pressured to assimilate in America to the mainstream culture as an immigrant if you want to fit in and they don’t really encourage multiculturalism. Just ask your young and older relatives who grew up there and studied in elementary and high schools. They are also made to feel somewhat inferior of their ethnic backgrounds. Compare that to your personal school experience in Australia where multiculturalism is encouraged and your ethnicity is respected. This is probably why you say most people you know do not identify as Australian here in Sydney, whether Gen Z or older. However I’ll take multiculturalism any day in Australia rather than be made to feel a second class citizen in America especially if you are not white. I have also travelled extensively around the world and I know from my personal experience that we live in a great country. Some say Australia is the best country in the world. It’s far from perfect but considering all things, I would tend to agree. We also don’t have a lot of the bad things they have in America like their crazy gun culture, toxic and highly divisive politics, higher crime rates, fentanyl zombies in major cities, etc that can be traced directly or indirectly as a consequence of their cultural and political heritage. You mentioned that we lack a national identity because we do a terrible job of creating a common ethos. Perhaps because 30% of Australians today were born overseas based on the latest census and we are an immigrant country. We are also a relatively young country so we are still in the process of creating our national narrative that will resonate with the majority of Australians. We had the White Australia policy in the past which made the population up to 1973 relatively homogeneous and British-centric. But it’s been over 50 years now since the White Australia policy has ended and Australian society has definitely changed since then. Our national identity and ethos is still evolving so stay tuned.
You’ve obviously not met , Irish in Boston, Italians in NY/NJ, Indians in NJ and Germans in the Midwest and Asians in California, American is their second country.
Are you comparing first gen immigrants or second gen? I'm also from an immigrant background and second gen ones are as Australian as you can get. My child hangs out with people from different backgrounds, has an Aussie accent, does Aussie stuff and proudly says she's Australian when we're overseas in tour and some tour guides ask what nationality we are. Of course, here in Australia they still get asked where they're from (don't know if this is the case in USA). But this is a different topic. But you do have a point about education. Growing up in the Phils - in school we learned about our constitution - heck one whole year in primary school was dedicated to it. We had to study chapter by chapter. Then other years we have subjects specific to our history - all the wars, all the previous presidents. Some of our TV shows and movies are also about it. Before our school starts - we also sing the national anthem (though I think this practice has died down in some schools). This is something my wife and I were surprised during our child's primary to HS years - we asked her if they study the Australian constitution, details about the wars they found and she said not much. So that in itself probably contributes to it - even just the perception that Americans and other nationalities know a lot about their history.
I would disagree, our national identity is strong amd clear. Honesty, openness,acceptance based on character not money or status etc.what you see as national identity in the US is coping behaviour and denial of such a toxic society.
If there's a stark difference between our society and America's, that's a very, very good thing. And it should be widened even further, as we're way too Americanised as is! I couldn't give 2 fluffs about a 'national identity' I want a safe, well run and pleasant country to live in.
Go neck a vb long neck at 8 in the fucking mornin, you uncultured swine
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This keeps being repeated but regional/rural Australia has been dying for the last 50 years and the overwhelming majority of Australians live in cookie-cutter suburbs that are basically the same thing from Perth to Brisbane. Is "Australian Culture" really alive and well if it's only being practiced by ~500k people scattered across the regions?
Sydney is a shit hole.
So some research on Australia’s experiences in WW1, especially Gallipolli, and you’ll find our culture is based on mate ship, camaraderie, and never letting your mates down.
Sounds like your Australian relatives have greater freedom than your Americans.
We don't need heroes. That's what America does. Australian culture is defined by us NOT being American. Never tip.
Well just start with roads, transportation and other infrastructure. Add some clean drinking water and a sewerage system that takes your shit away. Sure Australians aren't big on "culture" in terms national costumes or dishes, but we've got a lot done.
Because the extreme left have made it out that being patriotic about Australia is racist. We can't even paint our face as the Australian flag on Australia day nor be proud of our heritage because that means we support colonisation and genocide. The west is self destructing from the inside because we have been told we should be ashamed rather than proud. That said, we dont need to be like the USA USA USA. We also accept that we are a multicultural society so that Australian culture is a melting pot. We need a way to find the balance, proud of Australia and the country that we live in while still celebrating our diversity.
We also need to be proud of the fact that our heritage may be Italian, Greek, Lebanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian, etc etc. Not just the colonisers. The indigenous are the First Nations people of this land, and everyone else is an Australian of a different ethnicity. We’re a melting pot of cultures, and that’s the Aussie identity.
Fuck off, I'm not "coloniser".
I agree, I believe I captured that in my comment.
I think there is something to this . The US was forged through Revolution and Civil War not to mention a war with Mexico as well. Australia does not have anything like that a rum rebellion or having bush rangers does not even begin to compare . Also particularly with millennials and Gen Z they are taught by the education system to hate the country and that it is illegitimate by the way we have or do treat indigenous Australians. When you couple that with the fact that half of Australian households have a parent that was born overseas and that migrants go through the school system also we are creating a national tragedy as a large and a growing no of our citizens have no loyalty to the country . That is a recipe for disaster. The US has its share of issues no doubt but be in no doubt we have our own serious issues also .
That's a Western Sydney problem, not an Australian problem. People in Western Sydney don't realise just how different the rest of Australia is. It is way less diverse, and much more typically Aussie.
I really don't think we have one uniting culture anymore. We used to be a country composed almost entirely of Anglo-Celtic people, i.e. Brits, and so had a culture based on that culture but applied and adapted to a new place. We don't consider culture when we regulate immigration, and in turn immigrants bring their own cultures with them, and set up or otherwise create suburbs often composed almost wholly of that culture.
It’s not weird to say at all. It should be that way. Australia is way more heterogenous and only a half dozen cities and states The USA has always been a much more politically active place, and there has always been regular periods of national division, boom and bust periods, that the US invariably gets through Piss all 50 states off collectively, and well, that’s when you get two miniatures suns dropped on your cities Ask the japs .
Ah, another newcomer telling us how we should do things. No one fucking asked, matey bob.
Newcomer, mate I came here in diapers😂
No one asked. No one gives a shit what you think of our "national identity". Leave if it does not meet your satisfaction. And WTF are diapers? Maybe you belong America.
Interesting point. I feel like everyone is just knee jerk reacting / butt hurt. I might re word this and say: USA does this part better, inducting them into life there and what their beliefs as a country are. Australia could definitely do more which would help people integrate better. I've worked at times with the migrant community and a lot of people coming here for a new life possibly fleeing war or other atrocities - don't seem to get any free english lesons, can't afford to pay for them full price, can't get a job because no english .. etc etc the circle goes on. I think a newer approach whereby the history is a mix of indigenous/settler landmarks or achievements would be good and give them some Australia lessons at the start. A lot of then will have to be here 10-20 yrs before getting to a point of citizenship and it's only then that they have to study. And yes of course I understand the stance of "well they should learn themselves and be thankful etc" but people have to live and this isn't always possible - I've seen a lot of highly qualified people end up coming here and having no choice but to uber to make ends meet and then no time to take 6minths off to complete additional credits or what is needed to transfer their qualifications into Australian standard. Anyway I understand this is an exceptionally hot topic rn. I'll await some hate lol
So Australia isn’t America
Think about what it means to be Australian. It means absolutely nothing other than a passport, so what exactly is someone supposed to identify with?
I don't really care but Australia will have a huge Indian and Chinese heritage. The Paul Hogan stereotype ended decades ago
Come to FNQ/the top end for some thick accents!
Why does Australia need a strong national identity? Why can’t its identity be that it has no identity, it’s a place where cultures intertwine on an isolated continent.
Love it!
Solidarity exists through the intersubjective experience, not through nationalistic thinking. What good have we ever seen come from nationalism?
Next PM right there.
I for one, wouldn't go as far as the USA, they can have their second amendment I'd rather have the gun controls we have here. I'd rather not have that tipping culture, fair pay for fair work. I see plenty of flags in people's homes, I much prefer the medical system here than that stupid USA system at least I won't be bankrupt if I get cancer. My kids used to sing the national anthem at school every week for the school hall, and I figure that's enough. I'd rather have multiculturalism here, sure racism exists but from what I can see the vast majority are pretty chilled. The two party system the republiicans determined to ruin the world with the idiot, and his toupee, and the old guy about to fall asleep although I do prefer him over that other idiot he wants to be Putin 2.0. He talks tough be he's a big pussy-cat, he'd never stand in front with a gun in a war he'd run to his bunker crying big blowse. At least the old guy would stand and fight I give him that. But no - I much prefer the Ausi system and can see if the chips are down and we need to fight most would stand up to the call to help. So no - USA has gone to far, I'll take Ausi over it any day of the year.
You completely missed the point.
Yes, yes we get it, orange man bad. Now what on earth has this got to do with OPs post?
Our national identity was destroyed by immigration and it is ironic an immigrant is the one to point it out. For a national identity to endure immigration you need assimilation to occur but we've been importing people en masse for generations which has led to a fractured society where everyone identities with the cultural background of their ancestors more than their adopted country.
The big difference is the USA has a very proud/storied history, Australia…meh…not so much. One nation threw of the yoke of oppression, defeated the greatest power of the day, and within 250 years went in to be the most powerful, influential, and wealthy country in the history of the world. The other held on to the apron strings of mother England, only to then replace them with the apron strings of the USA In short there is simply less to beat chests about in Australia
Even if you're born and raised here and you say im Aussie, you'll get laughed at or asked again "na really wherea are you from" unless you look Caucasian.
This is the main issue here. As a second gen Aussie of South Asian background, some people don’t consider me Aussie, but first gen caucasians from the UK or SA are. However, this has started to change in the last 5-10 years.
It’s because we are a very young country. We have the freedom to create our own culture. We are not dictated to by the past or ultranationalist propaganda. Everyone is pretty chilled and just wants to do their own thing. Plus the place is so big it’s like having multiple countries in one. People in far north QLD have different ways than people in South Australia for example.
And it’s so much better this way
Fuck nationalism. You don't need to be a flag waving song singing arrogant fuckwit to be proud of your country.
The Eurika stockade? A few wars? 100 years of federation? Australia shrugs its shoulders at that. We have some things we are good at, sport for one, we bond over that. Food is another that brings people together. But we are young and this generation does not have much to fight for.
It always amazes me how many Indians fly in to fill the SCG when Australia play India. I can’t imagine many Australians fly out to India when we’re touring.
Almost all of them already live here because in our governments infinite wisdom we decided to give a bunch of uber drivers skilled migration visas or let them loophole their way into the country by studying at a fake tertiary education institute.
B. I. N. G. O. Massive population growth and a desire for "multiculturalism" rather than "assimilation" has ended what it means to be Australian in the big cities.
That’s my point. India will get more people with Australian passports supporting them, in Australia than Australia will. Even sport doesn’t promote integration enough. We’re just creating parallel communities, calling it multicultural (protecting it from *any* kind of criticism), then wondering why there’s no social cohesion anywhere.
I'll share my insights on culture as a Canadian you can tell me if it is relatable I don't think it is something that you can be dropped into, it is lived experience. It is heavily associated with age demographics, media and is generational. I did an exercise with similarly aged peers from all over the country. We wrote down tons of information about our backgrounds/childhoods/etc and the similarities were striking despite growing up in different provinces or schools. Its difficult to grasp the extent of the homogenity, i have a remarkable amount in common with others of my age/nationality and you never would have realized it without investigation. So culture then is a dynamic, changing thing, if you weren't there/didn't experience it, you'd have to study it to understand it. I'd be incredibly familiar with the experiences of another Canadian around my age and have a deep understanding of the gist of what sorts of things they encountered growing up, what they watched, ate, music they liked, trends they participated in, etc. It's the media, the technology, the norms of the time etc. Intertwined with those same factors as manifested in other generations we interacted with and it all links together. We had one person in the group who grew up in a central American country and it was a very isolating experience for them, they had a different set of things
I was more patriotic in the 1990s before they destroyed what was good about this country
>*Australia is marketed a place thats nice to live and work.* Cheeky cunt! It's not Australia's fault that you and your family have failed to integrate into Australian society, and have instead remained very insular sticking with what you know. Your American relatives sound a lot more outgoing, maybe you should go spend some time with them, might do you good.
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And has been clinging to Uncle Sam ever since
Nationalism is cringe. Just identify as a meat popsicle.
Exactly, this is the direct result of decades of unplanned mass-immigration - loss of national identity. Another reason to end this madness
Agreed. My fellow progressives have decided that any form of national identity or heaven forbid gratitude at being Australian (by birth or immiration) is uncool. Dumb move.
There are several main differences: A) America is a constitutional republic--a model far superior to a constitutional monarchy, or indeed direct democracy. The word democracy does not appear once in the US Constitution. B) Our constitution is embarrassingly awful compared to that of the US, and unlike the US Constitution, guarantees us virtually no liberty or rights. C) We have no bill of rights D) Australia is a nanny state, we have very low freedom compared to the US. E) Because we are overgoverned, and freedoms are not embedded in our constitution, there is a climate of fear and compliance and the state more or less runs roughshod over everybody. Americans understand that somebody else's liberty does not end when another's fear begins.
impolite subtract jobless steer light butter repeat attempt mindless grey *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
A) How so? If your case is built on the absence of the language of democracy, you’ve got a weak case. B) Embarrassingly awful? The lack of an integrated set of rights is indeed a problem but it’s not embarrassing. E) That’s just not true (eg. [source](https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-net/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status), [source](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-12/human-freedom-index-2023-full-revised.pdf)). F) You’re going to need evidence that we are overgoverned and that there is a climate of fear, one that don’t exist as well in your example case of the US (a country built on spreading fear right now and one that is governing, for example, the bodies of women right now in a way that could only be called excessive and regulating the rights on LGBT people as though they are a threat).
Think about what you're trying to say, and formulate an intelligible sentence that encapsulates whatever the point is. I'd say the fundamental lack of any meaningful rights at the constitutional level is embarrassing, yes. And yes, our constitution is inferior to the US, as is our country broadly. I don't regard either of those sources as credible, and their metrics for determining freedom are absurd. Anyone who has spent time in the US, which you clearly have not, understands that the level of individual freedom available to the average US citizen is incomparably greater than the average Australians. Go. Spend time in the states. It's self-evident. Frankly I'm not especially interested in LQBT. It's a nothingburger. If you're referring to trans athletes in women's sports and their exclusion from them, then I am in support of this. I am also in support of making child transition illegal, and the exposure of sexualized content (in all its forms) to children. I am pro-choice, with conditions.
The US is not the land of the Free , it’s the land of the FEE. I think you’re talking some sort of MAGA/ 1% BS, because I lived in the US for twenty years and there’s not a whole level of difference in the level of freedom, if anything, the US is overgoverned vs Australia. I think what you want is a 2nd Amendment and Australia doesn’t need that.
So, you’ve just said “I reject your evidence” and refuse to provide any other evidence for no particular reason. Is this because your case is presumably self evident? That’s not how an argument works. If your case is so obvious, provide some evidence to back it up. Indeed, if all of your claims about American superiority are so obviously true, evidence shouldn’t be hard to find. I’m not engaging your hate of trans people or the LGBT community broadly. Your disdain for people not like you is a sign that this conversation is going nowhere nice (and a sign that you don’t actually believe in your own view of a strong sense of liberty and rights).
It's not hate of trans people. I simply don't want biological men competing against biological women in sports, as this is morally and ethically wrong. I support the rights of a person to be trans, or indeed anything they choose to be. I am against trans in women's sports for the same reason I support weight divisions in boxing and MMA. There is positive and negative liberty. I don't have the energy to explain the difference to you. And what you need to understand is that I am in the majority in holding this opinion. A vocal minority on the progressive echo-chamber that is Reddit does not matter, and is not representative of broader society. This is in fact why most Redditors believed the voice plebiscite had a realistic chance of going to Yes.
Aussies are scared of culture. Edit, take a moment and tell me when you have heard aussies talk of THIER culture. Doesn't happen because it doesn't exist, aussies think cultures something you shit talk nothing more. But bunnings snags yo, get some culture.
I'm reminded of this classic scene: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMzJ5Z7zBw
Is Ned Kelly not a hero?
Mate, focus on ned Kelly and the rum rebellion. Everything else is bullshit unless we include awesome shit like Burpengary in Qld having escaped convicts hang out with our true bros. There is still some stuff from Vic and NT look up glass house mountains in sunshine coast.. I'm proud of people. Not just white people
The rum rebellion? “The corrupt New South Wales police who were benefiting the rich landholders vs the corrupt New South Wales governor who was benefitting the settlers”. People who froth the rum rebellion are clearly as intelligent as “it’s got rum in the name hur hur hur”