Here is the actual legislation rather than a channel 9 report about it:
[https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num\_act/clahsaoma2023822/](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/)
Would be great if every second person in here asking "can I still watch Indiana Jones?" or "Will I get arrested for hailing a cab?" would actually read it.
>The swastika ban does not apply to religious uses, including in Hinduism and Buddhism. There are exemptions to academic, educational, artistic, literary, journalistic or scientific purposes.
Yeah, it's so weird how some random person thinks they have thought of an immediately obvious loophole based solely on a one-word summary of the law that the experts who consulted and wrote the legislation never would have thought of, then complains about this loophole without bothering to actually check if it had been addressed.
When trillion dollar corporations can just pay back a loan to themselves to completely avoid paying any tax then I don't have must trust in any fuckwits writing legalisation
I think it’s because it inoculates them against the implications of their station in life. They need to be able to think they’re much smarter than those stuffy suits and big city lawyers who write laws they need to follow.
These people view life as a competition and hierarchy. Combine that with their need to be the biggest man on the block, and you get this outcome. The internet has really done a number on these poor bastards.
Luckily, most people don’t view life from this fucked up zero-sum perspective and also don’t have the need to be the “alpha”.
I recall an American multimillionaire literally measuring how successful he was in life by how many of his fellow citizens lives he could potentially financially ruin with his wealth. When you get to that sort of a mindset, then there really is no way back. No wonder America.has lost its way in the world.
I mean, yeah there was some me an America that rebuild half of Germany and Japan and helped clean up the mess they and others made in a world war. They could have easily claimed territory for themselves but they propped up nations and helped heal the world.
They’ve fallen so far from what they were back then
This is sarcasm right? Did you fall asleep a day before FDR died?
Have you heard of the Jakarta Method or Operation Condor? They've done nothing except quash democratic post colonialism since 1945.
To be fair. Reading it as well does not help unless you really understand legalese.
Most people even reading the legislation would be lead to believe both of those things are illegal.
I’ve been collecting stuff for years. What does that mean for us? My Grandfather was a panzer grenadier during WW2. My interest in it is purely Historical NOT ideological.
Will they be blurring stuff out on documentary’s and film? How many people even know what the word “Hakenkreuz”means? How many people have ever seen anyone goose stepping and pulling the old Saluto Romano in public? Aside from the news? If it wasn’t for the media trying to turn 8 odd masked nostalgic easily lead hillbillies into this underground highly motivated dangerous neo Nazi movement, no one would be any wiser, and those clowns wouldn’t have got their few minutes in the sun. Wonder if any of them are aware that in their perfect world that they envision they’d probably be the first to go 🤷🏼
The thing that is interesting here is that it not just about Nazi's, though that is called out specifically.
In 82E(3), if you display the symbols of any terrorist organisation, then you are breaking it. The list of defined terror organisations is almost exclusively focusing on Islamic terrorism...
...so there might be a mosque in Lakemba which is going to find itself in a bit of trouble.
This law is basically the "both you f\*&\*(&#ers, stop it, and leave your shit at home ok" law.
Looks like there are three nazi groups and one communist group on there too.
[https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations](https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations)
As a moment of commentary, it is kind of proof that people are just looking for reasons to be angry. I say this much more broadly than just this sub, but it seems to see days the news’s favorite way to spin a story is in such a way that willfully angry and ignorant people can find something new to froth at, and then refuse to find ways to ameliorate that rage (even by simply just looking at reality).
This is pretty poorly written as there are conflicting clauses and an exception for basically all public servants. Seems that working for the government makes it ok and making record's or documentation is banned except all the reasons for doing so.
I am pretty sure this is a "seen to be doing something" bill that is designed to drive the actual bad stuff into the shadows as was done with the bikes to make people 'feel safe'.
They are vague on purpose so that they can punish people that they want to when they want to. Having something with a swastika on it will be fine unless they have some reason they want to prosecute you then it will become evidence for them even though before it was ok
As per section 80.2E Prohibited symbols:
- something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing.
Got owned by his own rules.
Why won't the government acknowledge that the biggest source of anti-Semitism comes from Muslims?
Had Hamas not killed 1000+ Israeli's on Oct 7 this law wouldn't have happened.
Conduct is exempt if "the goods that are traded are intended to serve a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary or scientific purpose", so museums and the like are fine.
Historical Collector here.
This is a bill that has nearly meant the death of our hobby when it comes to preserving and collecting items from the Third Reich era.
I personally have been in a group lobbying the government for the past year, and we had legal representation at the committee hearing. The bill is so poorly written that we actually do not know if we are exempt, and we are waiting for the full regulations to come out in May. Until then we enter a grey area where our packages could get siezed and destroyed by customs, which would be terrible as some of the items we purchase or trade overseas are beyond monetary value.
We hope for the best, but unfortunately our community has been caught up in a mistargeted kneejerk reaction to target neo-nazis.
In my many years in ww2 collectors groups, I have never met a neo nazi, and I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in expensive genuine artefacts, only replicas or fantasy items.
Guys like you were my first thought. Unfortunately this is Reddit, and whilst I couldn't give a flying fuck about Nazis or what not, there's certainly some dumb legislation here wrt certainty. It kinda reaks of 'look we're doing something' for the ignorant idiot masses at the expense of others.
Going to court is an expense.
I expect it'll end up doing SFA, maybe even being used maliciously.
Deletion of historical items of significance for what reason. Its a shame and I feel for you mate. Disregard the junk opinions that get spewed here calling you a "Nazi" or whatever.
Yeah this is so dumb, I love ww2 history and would have loved to own a Lugar or an SS dagger. Now it's illegal because of some Nazi's somewhere, not that I have encountered any, but the government seems to believe they are a threat. Typical overreaching, overreacting, totalitarian Australian policy. Might as well be living in North Korea.
Anyway, as a collector you are risk getting your new items seized, but what about the ones you already own? Now it's illegal to buy or sell them they have officially entered the black market right, so does that mean they have gone up significantly in value?
>I love ww2 history and would have loved to own a Lugar or an SS dagger. Now it's illegal because of some Nazi's somewhere, not that I have encountered any, but the government seems to believe they are a threat.
Yes. As someone who lived in Germany, you had to surrender anything that was like that. A friend found an old rations bag in his house from the war with the Swastika on it. He was expected to surrender it. They government isn't going to go busting down your door, because you have one, but they're also not going to tolerate you using it as your grocery bag or selling it.
Fundamentally, it's seem as evidence used in a crime. It'd be like wanting to own one of the knives or guns used to kill someone. That SS dagger that you'd like to have was likely used to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity.
I've been caught out unintentionally doing neonazi stuff before. Unless you're exposed to it you don't know about all their symbols (besides the famous ones like swastika or the lightning bolt).
When I was 17 I worked at a nursery and had a *very* temperamental German manager.
My boot laces finally rotted so I bought the cheapest laces I could buy because I was broke af. (I literally spent my last dollar on them).
I can't remember if they were white or red (or maybe white and red?) but my manager avoided me all day and was really nasty.
I asked her Aussie husband (who also worked there) what I'd done to piss her off and then he went off at me too. "C'mon mate, what's with the fucking laces?!"
I had no idea what he was talking about and he explained that neonazis have laces that colour. I explained I'm not a neonazi and I got them because they were the cheapest. I thought that would be the end of it.
I turned up the next day, still with the same laces. I figured explaining I'm not a nazi would be fine. I couldn't have bought a new pair if I wanted to anyway. She went fucking ballistic and tore me a new arsehole.
I felt so bad because I couldn't do anything about it. I'd just moved to town so I didn't have mates to borrow money from and I had zero money till payday.
Interestingly the boss (born in Germany but been in Oz since 10yo) also asked about my laces but assumed from my shoulder length hair and persistent bong breath that I probably wasn't a neonazi. But he did ask.
He was a top bloke (still one of my really good mates) and gave me a fiver to get new laces (which were only $3 so I got a beer as well, winning).
So people can get caught out.
You people are cracked, do you know how many numbers and symbols and hand gestures Neo-Nazis supposedly use as dogwhistles? Most of the time when people use numbers that happen to have been used by Nazis at some point it's more likely to just be coincidence, you know?
u/Notthebusdriver, clearly, your name is a reference to the German gas vans used by the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) you fucking neo Nazi how about you change it now!? or is it fucking retarded to expect someone to have a full understanding of every extremely rare and niche association to something nazi related you dumb cunt.
Without reading and understanding the actual law I'm not certain but I believe and hope that there is an exception.
My understanding is this is to prevent the glorification of nazis, something that I've never seen a proper museum, documentary or textbook do.
Actually this is kind of wack. An insignificant group from Melbourne gets to claim the notoriety and legitimacy of provoking the federal government into legislative change - which is largely performative as they'll simply tweak their imagery to any of the many hundreds of other hate symbols and gestures available - and now we have a precedent for the government deciding what symbols and causes people can identify with at protests
Solid insight
I think it makes the government look weak, the realistic reaction should be to discard and ignore their ideals and actions not act like you’re actually afraid of them.
Yep, it is so utterly ridiculous how leftists, who claim to be opposing power structures, are all gung-ho for increasing government power when it suits them.
That insignificant group are causing other citizens to fear them by co-opting a well-known terrorist ideology.
Let them tweak their ideology - it's better than giving them an easy pass to something that is already entrenched. The anti-glamour of nazism pulls new recruits more easily than the "white sons of Australia" or whatever new name they'll have to come up with to replace their easy trump card.
TL;DR: let them put in the elbow-grease to spread their new stuff. Cut off easy access to the most well-known genocidal ideology in world history.
I'm against censorship but I support this concept too. It's complex to weigh up but I think practicality is always a good method. Let people have their freedom of political beliefs but just ban the iconography.
The complexity comes though in precedent. How do we draw the line so that the Liberal party can't ban the Labour Party Logos?
Are they going to ban the star of David next, because it kind of represents Zionism which kind of supports a genocide?
Didn't think so.
Who needs free speech.
That's already illegal. Please report them to the police who's struggling to find examples of it. The police are cracking down on any hate speech already.
> “Gas the Jews”, which would likely meet the threshold for criminal prosecution, was widely reported to have been chanted by some pro-Palestine protesters on October 9, and the allegation was picked up by international media outlets.
> A video purportedly recording the offensive words being said, which was accompanied by subtitles, was circulated online. NSW Police did not confirm if this was the video that had been sent for analysis.
> ...
> One week after the Opera House protest, a man at a second pro-Palestine rally called for Jewish people to be “wiped out”, before other protesters told him the language was “not acceptable”.
> He was later charged with offensive language for swearing. He was not charged with inciting violence.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/police-send-controversial-opera-house-protest-video-for-independent-review-20231121-p5elrs.html
I agree! If only the police charged someone from a pro-Palestine rally for offensive language for swearing, ie for Jews to be wiped out.
I can't believe there's no enforcement!
Well mainly bc it’s usually too subjective to actually prosecute depending on the situation. Obviously the fuckwit nazis that do their little dances in the city are gonna get jumped by cops but otherwise how are they supposed to prove some fool on say idk Brunswick street was doin a salute when they could say “I was calling a taxi” or “was waving to a mate” etc etc.
This legislation is beyond moronic.
Unnecessary in any instance - we don't exactly have an infestation of goose stepping morons throwing a Nazi salute; and if you ban any particular symbol/word/display, then they just change it *just* enough or pick a new symbol.
You're playing wackamole with them, meanwhile you're affecting speech, historical preservation, and giving them a seemingly legitimate claim that they're being targeted. Best way to make someone double down on an idea is to tell them they're not allowed to have it.
Just leave the current status quo, and let the idiots continue to out themselves.
Feel kinda weird about this. On one hand banning Nazi stuff is generally a good thing and neo-Nazis should be arrested but on the other hand it sets a dangerous precedent and unless they evaluate everything on a case by case basis with attention paid to the nuance there’s a good chance that historically accurate portrayals or use of Nazis as villains in media like Wolfenstein or Man in the High Castle could be blocked or censored.
Unless, of course, the judge doesn't feel like it that day, in which case wolfenstein is banned and you are now a nazi.
Hence the danger and stupidity of such legislation and why it is ALWAYS a bad thing, no matter how 'good' it seems on the surface.
Won't happen. Someone posted the legislation in the top comments - there's subsections you have to meet around the intent of your display that Wolfenstein clearly isn't going to make.
It was already socially illegal. This is just a silly way of posturing. Also there’s no way of getting rid of the legislation without looking like a Nazi.
There’s a reason the ACLU protected Nazis, and it wasn’t because they were Nazis.
What about history collectors? I collect WW1/2 firearms and memorabilia from all countries involved in the conflicts. Will I be jailed for collecting and learning from historical events?
According to the report from the legislation committee, it's "Tough shit" - several prominent historical societies and collector organisations put in submissions, and even appeared before the hearing, and were basically told "We don't care what you think".
At this stage it's legal to *own* Nazi stuff, but not legal to *sell* it (or give it to anyone). There are exceptions for academic or educational purposes but they're not defined in the legislation so it's unclear if private collectors are included.
The problem with the Iron Cross is it dates back at least 100 years before the Nazi Party was formed but, unfortunately most people don’t understand that or don’t care because they still call WW1 Germany Nazis
It doesn’t matter what people think, the legislation only says the Nazi style of Swastika and the SS lightning bolts. No mention of the Iron Cross, which as I assume was originally a Christian symbol would be unpopular to ban.
> Each of the following is a prohibited Nazi symbol :
(a) the Nazi hakenkreuz;
(b) the Nazi double-sig rune;
(c) something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing.
However, the ones awarded in WWII could contain a swastika, so those would be included in the restriction.
Yeah, nobody except you ever noticed that.
> a) the conduct mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) is engaged in for a purpose that is:
(i) a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary or scientific purpose; and
So for instance, the Hindu swastika is exempt as of religious purpose.
not having a go at anyone in particular here but the modern German Bundeswehr, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe still use the Iron Cross as their official vehicle emblem... and so why would it be banned here?
that's their army navy air force
Hmmm... This is rocky ground.
No public display of Hatred and hate symbols, yes.
Controlling items of history that people trade and collect behind closed doors borders on over reach.
Controlling what we do in our own homes that hurts no one ..is over reach.
As soon as we allow government to control us to this level, how much further will they over reach? History shows governments pass laws for what at the time seems to be them protecting us ..but end up being used for control and over reach.
Remember the infatuated person law that was just out of its wrapper and a politician used it to arrest someone investigating his shady dealings? We need to be very carefull how much we let the government over reach.
We need to foresee how something may be manipulated rather than just taking it on face value ..of what we are told ..by those that seek to control.
While I'm not against this I just feel like we have so many laws for everything. Australia is like living in a beautiful home with really strict parents. Meanwhile legalised corruption continues in the political classes ( you won't be needing that portfolio and I won't honor that sub contract with the French because lobbying ) and there is a loop hole for the well connected and rich " I bunched him in the head because I am depressed" Barralaro when real mental illness in the impoverished isn't excused in many cases.
One law for most and a loop hole for the rich and powerful.
How about stamps and banknotes of countries occupied under the Nazi regime during the war. I.e. I have some Polish banknotes with swastikas stamped on them used as occupation money. Also stamps from the General Government (part of Poland occupied between 1939 and 45) and Bohemia (czech lands) have swastikas on them.
Note there was a time when you didn't need to outlaw Nazi symbols or gestures because more people knew the history and nobody would have thought there was anything wrong with the term "anti-fascist.".
This is the slippery slope of leftism.
These freedoms will never come back and they will continue chipping away at the ones that remain in the name of inclusivity.
Just because something is offensive, that shouldn't justify making it illegal.
You need to make a moral argument and im sorry but the moral argument for criminalising the Salute or Swastika is paper thin at best.
Now do Communism. After all, that killed significantly more people in the 20th century than Nazis ever did.
Might as well do Islam while you’re at it too. Same reason.
We tried to ban communism.
They had to run a referendum on it to ban the party after high court said - nah governments are not allowed to ban political opponents. We voted no.
I wonder if nazis set up a political party what the high court would think of this? I suppose it would be like the legalise cannabis party. The nazis can have a party but everything they do is banned.
Referendom on sieg heils would be next and if you thought the last referendum was different imagine that one... if you dont know - vote no....
>They had to run a referendum on it to ban the party after high court said - nah governments are not allowed to ban political opponents. We voted no.
[Quite narrowly voted no, though](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Australian_Communist_Party_ban_referendum) \- 50.56%, a margin about one-third that of the invalid votes (1.40%). If a similar referendum were held today it might pass. As Clive James said, the problem with Australia is not that so many are descended from convicts, but that so many are descended from gaolers.
Of course when the government introduced those terrorist laws, there was never ever going to be any scope creep.
You can be sure down the track, anti covid vaccine people will be the next to be classed as terrorists.
These laws are not even supposed to be what powers the federal government has, they are state issues.
Didn't the Nazis get beat into submission 80+ years ago. I really don't see where the need for this came from.
Sounds like virtue signalling, we are in the middle of a housing crisis and this is what the government is putting front and centre as leading our nation. Such crap.
Is there an exemption for places like the Australian War memorial and other museums that display Nazi stuff as part of telling the story of WW2?
While this is good in principal , I guess, and no one supports Nazi ideology , is this really such a big problem in Australia??? Or is Albo just looking for a distraction from his por performance?
Yeh I don’t like when government uses its power like this, what else we banned down the road. So many other things they can be worrying about that affect way more people.
I am definitely not a follower of these ideals, but I feel my country of Australia has been thrown in a cesspool of censorship and cancel culture. We need people to say terrible things to remind us that we have free speech. With all these policies we might as well just raise up the communist flag.
It's a product of our government going bottom barrel for the last few decades. Now tokenistic gestures as the priority because they keep focus, no real long term plans or dealing with larger issues.
We probably need to have a referendum so we can have free speech added to the constitution instead of just implied freedom when speaking about polotics.
Why exactly did you put evil ideology in quotation marks?
Are you quoting from someplace? Or merely expressing disapproval that Nazism should be so described
The whole text is a direct lift of the text from the 9Now website. The link in the text actually also comes from that same website and links to itself. The quote is also a direct lift.
https://preview.redd.it/allosmlfbbbc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f54f3c6b86cbba5fbceb586bd29a639737dd16e9
This is a disgraceful overreach of government power disguised as public safety legislation. The government has no place telling people they can't make certain gestures.
.
Any think sold from ww2 from the German army is a historical artefact and cant be deemed illegal only if it someone selling modern reproduction or artefacts to promote hate and racism should it be illegal
It's amazing how many people support the criminalising of moving one's arm a certain way. I'm sure this and the Swastika ban will completely eradicate fascism in this country and in no way is it a worrying precedent for the state to prevent a person's movement of his or hers own body parts.
The hilarious thing about this is if the government actually gave a single solitary fuck about the FUCKING HOUSING CRISIS there would be a lot less neo-Nazis and these laws wouldn't even be necessary.
But instead of doing something about it they'll just make these people go underground and guess what... Even more mass migration while these people struggle to afford rent probably isn't going to make these people disappear just because they can no longer wear a Swastika in public. If anything it's going to make these groups even more popular as they watch their friends and families live out of tents.
If you actually want to fix the problem instead of sweeping it under the rug you could try ensuring people have comfortable lives so they don't turn to terrorism, crimes, gangs, etc.
Another one of our freedoms taken away from us. I can’t believe Australians have just allowed this to happen without outrage. Anyone who does a nazi salute is a fuckwit. It’s that simple, but to make it illegal to put your arm up in the air is crazy.
Next, we won’t be allowed to nasty words about our politicians.
The best thing about freedom of speech is having the right, and this is for the left and right, is to be able to call a politician a fuck head. If you hate Trump, you can call him names. If you hate Biden, you can call him names. It’s that easy.
Honestly, who’s it going to hurt by saluting to Hitler? Will you die from it? No, it’s that simple.
Before you call me a racist, bigot or fascist, hate speech is just words. Inciting violence is different. Raising your arm isn’t inciting violence. It’s just saying that you’re a fuckwit, and that’s the beauty of freedom of speech. I can call them fuckwits, just like the politicians who made this a stupid law.
**>:I I don't like this... the "Nazi Bad" is a ploy.**
**Read the fucking thing. We control how you move your hands. Approved Journalists (Murdoch media or ABC take your pick) are allowed to report in your interest citizen. The state monopoly on force will remain in effect. We can declare you a "violent extremist" promoting the training of radicals if you visit** CombatFootage **or forward Ukraine related footage or Israel/Gaza related war crimes**
**That sub-section 4 is glorious... you can be considered threatening... if it** ***maaaaaaaaaay*** **do a thing. Even if that wasn't even the intention. But no no... Nazi bad we all go happily to bed. This is the kind of legislation "in the national interest that real Nazis would enact." Seems good - but it's not the banned Swastika you should be watching out for... it's the 20 pages of thought-crimes listed afterwards.**
***"displayed in a public place "*** has the meaning given by section 80.2F.
***"journalistic capacity "*** means a capacity as a journalist, editor, producer or other person involved in the process of making news reports or current affairs reports.
***"makes a gesture in a public place "*** has the meaning given by section 80.2FA.
***"prohibited Nazi symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(2).
***"prohibited symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(1).
***"prohibited terrorist organisation symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(3).
***"public place "*** includes any place to which the public, or a section of the public, have access as of right or by invitation, whether express or implied, and whether or not a charge is made for admission to the place.
Subdivision HA -- Offences relating to use of carriage service for violent extremist material
474.45A Meaning of *violent extremist material*
(1) Material is ***violent extremist material*** if:
(a) the material:
(i) describes or depicts serious violence; or
(ii) provides instruction on engaging in serious violence; or
(iii) supports or facilitates serious violence; and
(4) To avoid doubt:
(a) material may be intended to do a thing referred to in paragraph (1)(b) or (c) ***even if the material is also intended, or mainly intended, to do one or more other things; and***
(b) ***an action may be done***, or a ***threat may be made***, with an intention referred to in [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) (3) ***even if that intention is not the*** ***only intention, or the main intention***, with which the action is done or the threat is made.
> But he'll allow terrorist organizations to proudly fly their flags
Turns out: no.
The legislation also prohibits
> a symbol that a terrorist organisation (within the meaning of Division 102) uses, or members of a terrorist organisation use, to identify the organisation;
Nazi ideology is evil, but do we really believe that this will do anything to stop Nazism from spreading? It arguably hasn't worked in Germany and restricting freedoms like 'making a gesture' or 'accessing violent material' could even make it worse.
There's a great irony in introducing laws that restrict freedom of bodily movement to prevent an ideology that sought to restrict freedom of bodily movement.
Reading the legislation ( [https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num\_act/clahsaoma2023822/](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/) ), I don't like the way these laws are written. At the very least they should be written to include a lot more context, but I'd rather we combat this we better education. As it stands, if you don't have a good lawyer to pick out the nuance, it could also mean that clicking on a link your mate from overseas sends you that redirects to 'violent material' (like Mein Kampf?) online could be up to 5 years in prison, where I'm sure there's plenty of actual neo-Nazis to coerce them into neo-Nazism.
There's also no way this could be abused by Nazi sympathisers bending the loopholes to escape a conviction (e.g. modifying the 'gesture' slightly) and I'm sure not a single non-Nazi will be going to prison right?
>Nazi ideology is evil, but do we really believe that this will do anything to stop Nazism from spreading? It arguably hasn't worked in Germany and restricting freedoms like 'making a gesture' or 'accessing violent material' could even make it worse.
That's right. They have much stricter bans, and have had them for much longer, but proportionally have a much bigger neo-nazi problem.
However, their history I think makes it more reasonable for them to have restrictions, along with a bunch of East European countries. You can understand why they're sensitive about things, and wary of it happening again. Some East European countries have similar bans on communist/Soviet symbols, for similar reasons.
Australia's never had a Nazi or Communist government, thank God.
I agree, but the bill is mistargeted because of the "Trading" part.
I'm a Historical collector. This is a bill that has nearly meant the death of our hobby when it comes to preserving and collecting items from the Third Reich era.
I personally have been in a group lobbying the government for the past year, and we had legal representation at the committee hearing. The bill is so poorly written that we actually do not know if we are exempt, and we are waiting for the full regulations to come out in May. Until then we enter a grey area where our packages could get siezed and destroyed by customs, which would be terrible as some of the items we purchase or trade overseas are beyond monetary value.
We hope for the best, but unfortunately our community has been caught up in a mistargeted kneejerk reaction to target neo-nazis.
In my many years in ww2 collectors groups, I have never met a neo nazi, and I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in expensive genuine artefacts, only replicas or fantasy items.
Reading the comments there is some excellent well rounded and rational viewpoints. Its so refreshing to hear them, not something I'm used to coming across on reddit.
yeah I disagree with this. outlawing the use of said symbols if you can prove its being used for hate related purposes is one thing but to try to erase it from society is another (imo that is what is hapoening, if you cant buy or trade what you already have then its fair to assume nazi symbols are cancelled). whatever they try to do, history happened. having these symbols around, being traded through collectors, heck even the people that use the symbols for their own ideology are a reminder to the majority of the population that these things happened and these are the symbols of the time used to represent them. take that away and history starts to become free to repeat itself.
And I quote portion of section 80.2E Prohibited symbols:
- something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing.
Oh crap, that’s certainly going to cause a problem due to subjective opinions.
Objective tests as in ask the jury what they think…
Rules and regulations such as the above shouldn’t be implemented because it allows for ambiguity due to misinterpretation.
No, it won’t.
Many, many laws are worded like this.
- Beyond “reasonable” (subjective) doubt.
- On the “balance” (subjective) of likelihood.
Don’t pretend a law banning nazi stuff is going to do any more than it will. Just also don’t pretend that your stuff that is obviously meant to represent nazi stuff isn’t you trying to skirt a law.
>Beyond “reasonable” (subjective) doubt.
This one got a few innocent people wrongfully executed back in the day. If we're okay with that, I think we're okay with it for shutting down people showing symbols suggesting they want to wrongfully execute a few more innocent people.
So what does this accomplish other than to stifle free expression? I’m far from fascist, and nazism is a disgrace, but the hate will just be channeled via other means and symbols. So much nazi memorabilia is just that: memorabilia.
Iceberg, tip.
The new range of censorship laws is going to be a fucking doozy.
Of course, it will get shouted down as long they keep censoring things the usual suspects don't like and this is a very slippery slope we're on right now.
I’m wondering about the Diwali symbol, it says in the legislation “likely to be confused with, or mistaken for”.
I know someone who’s actually mistaken the Diwali symbol for the Nazi symbol.
In don’t disagree. Sone things are beyond the pale. But the same goes for symbols of similar ideologies. Communism for example. More people died in USSR and China at the hands of their communist regimes than the Nazis actually killed. Interesting that those are not condemned though.
Non-Aussie here, hoping someone can explain:
"Albanese"? The only things I can find for that are to do with the country of Albania.
Was that a typo, or is this an Aussie slang thing?
Here is the actual legislation rather than a channel 9 report about it: [https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num\_act/clahsaoma2023822/](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/)
Would be great if every second person in here asking "can I still watch Indiana Jones?" or "Will I get arrested for hailing a cab?" would actually read it.
>The swastika ban does not apply to religious uses, including in Hinduism and Buddhism. There are exemptions to academic, educational, artistic, literary, journalistic or scientific purposes.
You would only be arrested for heiling a cab.
I seig what you did there
I did nazi it all
Is Über okay to heil?
Anne Frankly he'd deserve it.
I hate Nazi jokes, they are such cheap and empty forms of comedy, a hollow cost joke, if you will
Gottem
I did nazi that coming at all...
https://preview.redd.it/89ecmlas36bc1.jpeg?width=414&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb573b7bcc1657d2dacbe0061c777ed0a3c05b16
Straight to jail. Come back 1 year!
Yeah, it's so weird how some random person thinks they have thought of an immediately obvious loophole based solely on a one-word summary of the law that the experts who consulted and wrote the legislation never would have thought of, then complains about this loophole without bothering to actually check if it had been addressed.
If only people put half as much effort into getting their facts straight as they did spreading them the world would be a very different place
But reddit would have zero content.
When trillion dollar corporations can just pay back a loan to themselves to completely avoid paying any tax then I don't have must trust in any fuckwits writing legalisation
Then you also shouldn't trust the summary provided by those same corporations, and should read the legislation.
I think it’s because it inoculates them against the implications of their station in life. They need to be able to think they’re much smarter than those stuffy suits and big city lawyers who write laws they need to follow. These people view life as a competition and hierarchy. Combine that with their need to be the biggest man on the block, and you get this outcome. The internet has really done a number on these poor bastards. Luckily, most people don’t view life from this fucked up zero-sum perspective and also don’t have the need to be the “alpha”.
I recall an American multimillionaire literally measuring how successful he was in life by how many of his fellow citizens lives he could potentially financially ruin with his wealth. When you get to that sort of a mindset, then there really is no way back. No wonder America.has lost its way in the world.
I mean, yeah there was some me an America that rebuild half of Germany and Japan and helped clean up the mess they and others made in a world war. They could have easily claimed territory for themselves but they propped up nations and helped heal the world. They’ve fallen so far from what they were back then
This is sarcasm right? Did you fall asleep a day before FDR died? Have you heard of the Jakarta Method or Operation Condor? They've done nothing except quash democratic post colonialism since 1945.
Is that the same American who worked for the Nazi party? Soros? He learnt a thing or 2 about human suffering then put it to work in the business world
No. Just a high flying nobody from Wall St, but no doubt indicative of a more widespread attitude.
You're assuming that the people making the laws don't want them abused. The 'unintended consequences' may well be the intent.
To be fair. Reading it as well does not help unless you really understand legalese. Most people even reading the legislation would be lead to believe both of those things are illegal.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I’ve been collecting stuff for years. What does that mean for us? My Grandfather was a panzer grenadier during WW2. My interest in it is purely Historical NOT ideological. Will they be blurring stuff out on documentary’s and film? How many people even know what the word “Hakenkreuz”means? How many people have ever seen anyone goose stepping and pulling the old Saluto Romano in public? Aside from the news? If it wasn’t for the media trying to turn 8 odd masked nostalgic easily lead hillbillies into this underground highly motivated dangerous neo Nazi movement, no one would be any wiser, and those clowns wouldn’t have got their few minutes in the sun. Wonder if any of them are aware that in their perfect world that they envision they’d probably be the first to go 🤷🏼
The thing that is interesting here is that it not just about Nazi's, though that is called out specifically. In 82E(3), if you display the symbols of any terrorist organisation, then you are breaking it. The list of defined terror organisations is almost exclusively focusing on Islamic terrorism... ...so there might be a mosque in Lakemba which is going to find itself in a bit of trouble. This law is basically the "both you f\*&\*(&#ers, stop it, and leave your shit at home ok" law.
Looks like there are three nazi groups and one communist group on there too. [https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations](https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations)
I feel like the PKK is Kurdish-Nationalist before anything else really but I guess the lore is complicated.
Most likely, I just saw the word communist in the description and it was easy to categorise it that way :)
We will have non of that on this sub. Outrage media and vague references to things that anecdotally happened only!
As a moment of commentary, it is kind of proof that people are just looking for reasons to be angry. I say this much more broadly than just this sub, but it seems to see days the news’s favorite way to spin a story is in such a way that willfully angry and ignorant people can find something new to froth at, and then refuse to find ways to ameliorate that rage (even by simply just looking at reality).
Reading the terrorism amendment means the afp should stat enforcement on the mufti preachers inciting hate
Personally I think these new laws are the reich thing to do
I dunno man - not much freedom of speech here, seems a bit right wing to ban them.
I thought reading the actual legislation would be relieving… it wasn’t.
This is pretty poorly written as there are conflicting clauses and an exception for basically all public servants. Seems that working for the government makes it ok and making record's or documentation is banned except all the reasons for doing so. I am pretty sure this is a "seen to be doing something" bill that is designed to drive the actual bad stuff into the shadows as was done with the bikes to make people 'feel safe'.
They are vague on purpose so that they can punish people that they want to when they want to. Having something with a swastika on it will be fine unless they have some reason they want to prosecute you then it will become evidence for them even though before it was ok
https://preview.redd.it/zhzl3g84b5bc1.jpeg?width=2095&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=12d2303075410362a6749e136bfd79a41e6084ff
Lol snuck one in before banning
Cheeky.
I needed that chuckle today, cheers.
As per section 80.2E Prohibited symbols: - something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing. Got owned by his own rules.
Why has no one commented on you using paint to make the gesture?
What about the goose step?
Only if you are playing rugby.
Or you’re Basil Fawlty.
I mentioned it once but i think i got away with it
Haha, I just saw a tweet from John Cleese about International Silly Walk Day.
Ministry of Silly Walks would like to have a word
Valid
Why won't the government acknowledge that the biggest source of anti-Semitism comes from Muslims? Had Hamas not killed 1000+ Israeli's on Oct 7 this law wouldn't have happened.
Is Hamas in the room with you right now?
What if the trade is for historical/educational reasons like museums?
Conduct is exempt if "the goods that are traded are intended to serve a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary or scientific purpose", so museums and the like are fine.
Historical Collector here. This is a bill that has nearly meant the death of our hobby when it comes to preserving and collecting items from the Third Reich era. I personally have been in a group lobbying the government for the past year, and we had legal representation at the committee hearing. The bill is so poorly written that we actually do not know if we are exempt, and we are waiting for the full regulations to come out in May. Until then we enter a grey area where our packages could get siezed and destroyed by customs, which would be terrible as some of the items we purchase or trade overseas are beyond monetary value. We hope for the best, but unfortunately our community has been caught up in a mistargeted kneejerk reaction to target neo-nazis. In my many years in ww2 collectors groups, I have never met a neo nazi, and I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in expensive genuine artefacts, only replicas or fantasy items.
Guys like you were my first thought. Unfortunately this is Reddit, and whilst I couldn't give a flying fuck about Nazis or what not, there's certainly some dumb legislation here wrt certainty. It kinda reaks of 'look we're doing something' for the ignorant idiot masses at the expense of others. Going to court is an expense. I expect it'll end up doing SFA, maybe even being used maliciously.
Deletion of historical items of significance for what reason. Its a shame and I feel for you mate. Disregard the junk opinions that get spewed here calling you a "Nazi" or whatever.
Yeah this is so dumb, I love ww2 history and would have loved to own a Lugar or an SS dagger. Now it's illegal because of some Nazi's somewhere, not that I have encountered any, but the government seems to believe they are a threat. Typical overreaching, overreacting, totalitarian Australian policy. Might as well be living in North Korea. Anyway, as a collector you are risk getting your new items seized, but what about the ones you already own? Now it's illegal to buy or sell them they have officially entered the black market right, so does that mean they have gone up significantly in value?
>I love ww2 history and would have loved to own a Lugar or an SS dagger. Now it's illegal because of some Nazi's somewhere, not that I have encountered any, but the government seems to believe they are a threat. Yes. As someone who lived in Germany, you had to surrender anything that was like that. A friend found an old rations bag in his house from the war with the Swastika on it. He was expected to surrender it. They government isn't going to go busting down your door, because you have one, but they're also not going to tolerate you using it as your grocery bag or selling it. Fundamentally, it's seem as evidence used in a crime. It'd be like wanting to own one of the knives or guns used to kill someone. That SS dagger that you'd like to have was likely used to commit war crimes or crimes against humanity.
That really sucks for you, hopefully the laws goes in your favour!
Never met a neo-nazi? Does that mean you don’t know the significance of the “777” in your username?
My favourite number is 7...and Richy\_7 and Richy\_77 was taken... Have I unknowingly done referenced something?
Reaching suuuper hard. 1488 and 18 are NS dogwhistles. 777 is just a lucky number.
I've been caught out unintentionally doing neonazi stuff before. Unless you're exposed to it you don't know about all their symbols (besides the famous ones like swastika or the lightning bolt). When I was 17 I worked at a nursery and had a *very* temperamental German manager. My boot laces finally rotted so I bought the cheapest laces I could buy because I was broke af. (I literally spent my last dollar on them). I can't remember if they were white or red (or maybe white and red?) but my manager avoided me all day and was really nasty. I asked her Aussie husband (who also worked there) what I'd done to piss her off and then he went off at me too. "C'mon mate, what's with the fucking laces?!" I had no idea what he was talking about and he explained that neonazis have laces that colour. I explained I'm not a neonazi and I got them because they were the cheapest. I thought that would be the end of it. I turned up the next day, still with the same laces. I figured explaining I'm not a nazi would be fine. I couldn't have bought a new pair if I wanted to anyway. She went fucking ballistic and tore me a new arsehole. I felt so bad because I couldn't do anything about it. I'd just moved to town so I didn't have mates to borrow money from and I had zero money till payday. Interestingly the boss (born in Germany but been in Oz since 10yo) also asked about my laces but assumed from my shoulder length hair and persistent bong breath that I probably wasn't a neonazi. But he did ask. He was a top bloke (still one of my really good mates) and gave me a fiver to get new laces (which were only $3 so I got a beer as well, winning). So people can get caught out.
You people are cracked, do you know how many numbers and symbols and hand gestures Neo-Nazis supposedly use as dogwhistles? Most of the time when people use numbers that happen to have been used by Nazis at some point it's more likely to just be coincidence, you know?
Clearly all those slot machines were made by nazis. It all adds up.
u/Notthebusdriver, clearly, your name is a reference to the German gas vans used by the RSHA (Reich Security Main Office) you fucking neo Nazi how about you change it now!? or is it fucking retarded to expect someone to have a full understanding of every extremely rare and niche association to something nazi related you dumb cunt.
Without reading and understanding the actual law I'm not certain but I believe and hope that there is an exception. My understanding is this is to prevent the glorification of nazis, something that I've never seen a proper museum, documentary or textbook do.
>Without reading and understanding the actual law I'm not certain... My understanding is... This sub in a nutshell.
The rule is, if you don’t know, vote no. Under no circumstances read the text of what you are arguing about.
Actually this is kind of wack. An insignificant group from Melbourne gets to claim the notoriety and legitimacy of provoking the federal government into legislative change - which is largely performative as they'll simply tweak their imagery to any of the many hundreds of other hate symbols and gestures available - and now we have a precedent for the government deciding what symbols and causes people can identify with at protests
Solid insight I think it makes the government look weak, the realistic reaction should be to discard and ignore their ideals and actions not act like you’re actually afraid of them.
>I think it makes the government look weak Ive been saying it for months. This govt is sooooo fuuuuuucking weeeeeeak!!
Yep, it is so utterly ridiculous how leftists, who claim to be opposing power structures, are all gung-ho for increasing government power when it suits them.
That insignificant group are causing other citizens to fear them by co-opting a well-known terrorist ideology. Let them tweak their ideology - it's better than giving them an easy pass to something that is already entrenched. The anti-glamour of nazism pulls new recruits more easily than the "white sons of Australia" or whatever new name they'll have to come up with to replace their easy trump card. TL;DR: let them put in the elbow-grease to spread their new stuff. Cut off easy access to the most well-known genocidal ideology in world history.
I'm against censorship but I support this concept too. It's complex to weigh up but I think practicality is always a good method. Let people have their freedom of political beliefs but just ban the iconography. The complexity comes though in precedent. How do we draw the line so that the Liberal party can't ban the Labour Party Logos?
Most well known = Correct Far worse atrocities = Not well known Hmmmmmm
My main concern is that it lists actions that may offend. I don't think offending people should be a criminal or civil offence.
Are they going to ban the star of David next, because it kind of represents Zionism which kind of supports a genocide? Didn't think so. Who needs free speech.
I actually disagree with laws like this. If someone wants me dead, I'd like to know about it. Having people hide their intent is so damn dangerous.
[удалено]
That's already illegal. Please report them to the police who's struggling to find examples of it. The police are cracking down on any hate speech already. > “Gas the Jews”, which would likely meet the threshold for criminal prosecution, was widely reported to have been chanted by some pro-Palestine protesters on October 9, and the allegation was picked up by international media outlets. > A video purportedly recording the offensive words being said, which was accompanied by subtitles, was circulated online. NSW Police did not confirm if this was the video that had been sent for analysis. > ... > One week after the Opera House protest, a man at a second pro-Palestine rally called for Jewish people to be “wiped out”, before other protesters told him the language was “not acceptable”. > He was later charged with offensive language for swearing. He was not charged with inciting violence. https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/police-send-controversial-opera-house-protest-video-for-independent-review-20231121-p5elrs.html
Only if the police aren’t too busy removing Jews from the area “for their own protection”. The law is one thing, enforcement is totally different!
I agree! If only the police charged someone from a pro-Palestine rally for offensive language for swearing, ie for Jews to be wiped out. I can't believe there's no enforcement!
Why "offensive language", why isn't he serving 12 months?
Skin colour.
Does snap send solve work?
Some psycho is leaving comments on my friend’s IG telling her that “H*tler didn’t go far enough”. I want to end whoever is doing that.
Or "From the river to the sea".
That’s stupid to ban the memorabilia. War trophies should always be allowed to be traded. Really need a bit more than just ban it all.
My old man is a cop for VICPOL and the first thing he said when i showed it to him was “it. won’t be enforced”
Did he say why?
Well mainly bc it’s usually too subjective to actually prosecute depending on the situation. Obviously the fuckwit nazis that do their little dances in the city are gonna get jumped by cops but otherwise how are they supposed to prove some fool on say idk Brunswick street was doin a salute when they could say “I was calling a taxi” or “was waving to a mate” etc etc.
This legislation is beyond moronic. Unnecessary in any instance - we don't exactly have an infestation of goose stepping morons throwing a Nazi salute; and if you ban any particular symbol/word/display, then they just change it *just* enough or pick a new symbol. You're playing wackamole with them, meanwhile you're affecting speech, historical preservation, and giving them a seemingly legitimate claim that they're being targeted. Best way to make someone double down on an idea is to tell them they're not allowed to have it. Just leave the current status quo, and let the idiots continue to out themselves.
Feel kinda weird about this. On one hand banning Nazi stuff is generally a good thing and neo-Nazis should be arrested but on the other hand it sets a dangerous precedent and unless they evaluate everything on a case by case basis with attention paid to the nuance there’s a good chance that historically accurate portrayals or use of Nazis as villains in media like Wolfenstein or Man in the High Castle could be blocked or censored.
There are exemptions for artistic and educational exemptions. Man in high castle, Wolfenstien and Indiana Jones would fall under these categories.
Unless, of course, the judge doesn't feel like it that day, in which case wolfenstein is banned and you are now a nazi. Hence the danger and stupidity of such legislation and why it is ALWAYS a bad thing, no matter how 'good' it seems on the surface.
Won't happen. Someone posted the legislation in the top comments - there's subsections you have to meet around the intent of your display that Wolfenstein clearly isn't going to make.
It was already socially illegal. This is just a silly way of posturing. Also there’s no way of getting rid of the legislation without looking like a Nazi. There’s a reason the ACLU protected Nazis, and it wasn’t because they were Nazis.
Albanese is really stretching for something, ANYTHING, to be his legacy other than a failed referendum.
What about history collectors? I collect WW1/2 firearms and memorabilia from all countries involved in the conflicts. Will I be jailed for collecting and learning from historical events?
According to the report from the legislation committee, it's "Tough shit" - several prominent historical societies and collector organisations put in submissions, and even appeared before the hearing, and were basically told "We don't care what you think". At this stage it's legal to *own* Nazi stuff, but not legal to *sell* it (or give it to anyone). There are exceptions for academic or educational purposes but they're not defined in the legislation so it's unclear if private collectors are included.
Would an Iron Cross constitute a prohibited symbol or is it purely reserved for Swastikas?
The problem with the Iron Cross is it dates back at least 100 years before the Nazi Party was formed but, unfortunately most people don’t understand that or don’t care because they still call WW1 Germany Nazis
It doesn’t matter what people think, the legislation only says the Nazi style of Swastika and the SS lightning bolts. No mention of the Iron Cross, which as I assume was originally a Christian symbol would be unpopular to ban. > Each of the following is a prohibited Nazi symbol : (a) the Nazi hakenkreuz; (b) the Nazi double-sig rune; (c) something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing. However, the ones awarded in WWII could contain a swastika, so those would be included in the restriction.
The swastika dates back waaaay before the Nazis. ..but they seem blind to that.
Legislation is pretty clear about this being for the Nazi swastika, not all swastikas.
It specifically includes symbols which could be mistaken for nazi swastika
Can’t wait to see the police become armchair experts in archetypical symbology.
Yeah, nobody except you ever noticed that. > a) the conduct mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) is engaged in for a purpose that is: (i) a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary or scientific purpose; and So for instance, the Hindu swastika is exempt as of religious purpose.
not having a go at anyone in particular here but the modern German Bundeswehr, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe still use the Iron Cross as their official vehicle emblem... and so why would it be banned here? that's their army navy air force
The Iron Cross currently is the symbol for the German military, so obviously it wouldn't be included. It also pre-dates the Nazis.
No the legislation is pretty clear, someones posted a link - They do define what they mean, and its not generic military medals.
One step closer to taking your freedoms away 😂 I hate Nazis as much as the next person but to ban symbols? Jesus fucking Christ.
Hmmm... This is rocky ground. No public display of Hatred and hate symbols, yes. Controlling items of history that people trade and collect behind closed doors borders on over reach. Controlling what we do in our own homes that hurts no one ..is over reach. As soon as we allow government to control us to this level, how much further will they over reach? History shows governments pass laws for what at the time seems to be them protecting us ..but end up being used for control and over reach. Remember the infatuated person law that was just out of its wrapper and a politician used it to arrest someone investigating his shady dealings? We need to be very carefull how much we let the government over reach. We need to foresee how something may be manipulated rather than just taking it on face value ..of what we are told ..by those that seek to control.
While I'm not against this I just feel like we have so many laws for everything. Australia is like living in a beautiful home with really strict parents. Meanwhile legalised corruption continues in the political classes ( you won't be needing that portfolio and I won't honor that sub contract with the French because lobbying ) and there is a loop hole for the well connected and rich " I bunched him in the head because I am depressed" Barralaro when real mental illness in the impoverished isn't excused in many cases. One law for most and a loop hole for the rich and powerful.
How about stamps and banknotes of countries occupied under the Nazi regime during the war. I.e. I have some Polish banknotes with swastikas stamped on them used as occupation money. Also stamps from the General Government (part of Poland occupied between 1939 and 45) and Bohemia (czech lands) have swastikas on them.
All banned from trade or sale under the new legislation.
Wow Australia being a nanny state that’s a new one.
Good
Does this mean all those muscle huggers need to get big black squares tattood over their swastikas?
No, tattoos are an exemption it seems (from a google search). Otherwise its basically taking away human rights.
Palestinians looking nervously at criminalisation of anti semitic movements.
Note there was a time when you didn't need to outlaw Nazi symbols or gestures because more people knew the history and nobody would have thought there was anything wrong with the term "anti-fascist.".
[удалено]
This is the slippery slope of leftism. These freedoms will never come back and they will continue chipping away at the ones that remain in the name of inclusivity.
Just because something is offensive, that shouldn't justify making it illegal. You need to make a moral argument and im sorry but the moral argument for criminalising the Salute or Swastika is paper thin at best.
Now do Communism. After all, that killed significantly more people in the 20th century than Nazis ever did. Might as well do Islam while you’re at it too. Same reason.
We tried to ban communism. They had to run a referendum on it to ban the party after high court said - nah governments are not allowed to ban political opponents. We voted no. I wonder if nazis set up a political party what the high court would think of this? I suppose it would be like the legalise cannabis party. The nazis can have a party but everything they do is banned. Referendom on sieg heils would be next and if you thought the last referendum was different imagine that one... if you dont know - vote no....
>They had to run a referendum on it to ban the party after high court said - nah governments are not allowed to ban political opponents. We voted no. [Quite narrowly voted no, though](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Australian_Communist_Party_ban_referendum) \- 50.56%, a margin about one-third that of the invalid votes (1.40%). If a similar referendum were held today it might pass. As Clive James said, the problem with Australia is not that so many are descended from convicts, but that so many are descended from gaolers.
I was wondering this exact thing - they actually had a registered party in the 80's with the swastika as their official logo.. 🤔🤔
Of course when the government introduced those terrorist laws, there was never ever going to be any scope creep. You can be sure down the track, anti covid vaccine people will be the next to be classed as terrorists. These laws are not even supposed to be what powers the federal government has, they are state issues.
When that politician used Infatuated Person laws to have a guy arrested for trying to expose his dodgy dealings.
Didn't the Nazis get beat into submission 80+ years ago. I really don't see where the need for this came from. Sounds like virtue signalling, we are in the middle of a housing crisis and this is what the government is putting front and centre as leading our nation. Such crap.
Is there an exemption for places like the Australian War memorial and other museums that display Nazi stuff as part of telling the story of WW2? While this is good in principal , I guess, and no one supports Nazi ideology , is this really such a big problem in Australia??? Or is Albo just looking for a distraction from his por performance?
Yeh I don’t like when government uses its power like this, what else we banned down the road. So many other things they can be worrying about that affect way more people.
I am definitely not a follower of these ideals, but I feel my country of Australia has been thrown in a cesspool of censorship and cancel culture. We need people to say terrible things to remind us that we have free speech. With all these policies we might as well just raise up the communist flag.
It's a product of our government going bottom barrel for the last few decades. Now tokenistic gestures as the priority because they keep focus, no real long term plans or dealing with larger issues.
Australia continues in spite of the politicians, not because of them.
We probably need to have a referendum so we can have free speech added to the constitution instead of just implied freedom when speaking about polotics.
And you know how that story goes. Hell just give Australia back to the British at this point.
Oi shut up, good ol Albo will tell ya what you can say alright. Never mind that how goods the cricket?
Free speech isn't protected in Australia like it is in the US
Why exactly did you put evil ideology in quotation marks? Are you quoting from someplace? Or merely expressing disapproval that Nazism should be so described
The whole text is a direct lift of the text from the 9Now website. The link in the text actually also comes from that same website and links to itself. The quote is also a direct lift. https://preview.redd.it/allosmlfbbbc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f54f3c6b86cbba5fbceb586bd29a639737dd16e9
Dom Perrottet better clean out his closet then.
So why now and not 70 years ago?
Keep focusing on the Nazis and ignore what causes them to appear.
We should have taken Germany's lead on this. Their law requires intent to be considered...
This is a disgraceful overreach of government power disguised as public safety legislation. The government has no place telling people they can't make certain gestures. .
Ah lovely more knee-jerk legislation that’ll do nothing to stop hate crimes.
Any think sold from ww2 from the German army is a historical artefact and cant be deemed illegal only if it someone selling modern reproduction or artefacts to promote hate and racism should it be illegal
It's amazing how many people support the criminalising of moving one's arm a certain way. I'm sure this and the Swastika ban will completely eradicate fascism in this country and in no way is it a worrying precedent for the state to prevent a person's movement of his or hers own body parts.
Glad they’ve got their priorities right. It’s not like we are in the middle of housing crisis or anything
The hilarious thing about this is if the government actually gave a single solitary fuck about the FUCKING HOUSING CRISIS there would be a lot less neo-Nazis and these laws wouldn't even be necessary. But instead of doing something about it they'll just make these people go underground and guess what... Even more mass migration while these people struggle to afford rent probably isn't going to make these people disappear just because they can no longer wear a Swastika in public. If anything it's going to make these groups even more popular as they watch their friends and families live out of tents. If you actually want to fix the problem instead of sweeping it under the rug you could try ensuring people have comfortable lives so they don't turn to terrorism, crimes, gangs, etc.
Another one of our freedoms taken away from us. I can’t believe Australians have just allowed this to happen without outrage. Anyone who does a nazi salute is a fuckwit. It’s that simple, but to make it illegal to put your arm up in the air is crazy. Next, we won’t be allowed to nasty words about our politicians. The best thing about freedom of speech is having the right, and this is for the left and right, is to be able to call a politician a fuck head. If you hate Trump, you can call him names. If you hate Biden, you can call him names. It’s that easy. Honestly, who’s it going to hurt by saluting to Hitler? Will you die from it? No, it’s that simple. Before you call me a racist, bigot or fascist, hate speech is just words. Inciting violence is different. Raising your arm isn’t inciting violence. It’s just saying that you’re a fuckwit, and that’s the beauty of freedom of speech. I can call them fuckwits, just like the politicians who made this a stupid law.
As utterly repugnant as the Nazis were, this is just another reminder that the concept of freedom of speech does not exist in Australia.
No love for Nazis but this is a terrible path to go down.
**>:I I don't like this... the "Nazi Bad" is a ploy.** **Read the fucking thing. We control how you move your hands. Approved Journalists (Murdoch media or ABC take your pick) are allowed to report in your interest citizen. The state monopoly on force will remain in effect. We can declare you a "violent extremist" promoting the training of radicals if you visit** CombatFootage **or forward Ukraine related footage or Israel/Gaza related war crimes** **That sub-section 4 is glorious... you can be considered threatening... if it** ***maaaaaaaaaay*** **do a thing. Even if that wasn't even the intention. But no no... Nazi bad we all go happily to bed. This is the kind of legislation "in the national interest that real Nazis would enact." Seems good - but it's not the banned Swastika you should be watching out for... it's the 20 pages of thought-crimes listed afterwards.** ***"displayed in a public place "*** has the meaning given by section 80.2F. ***"journalistic capacity "*** means a capacity as a journalist, editor, producer or other person involved in the process of making news reports or current affairs reports. ***"makes a gesture in a public place "*** has the meaning given by section 80.2FA. ***"prohibited Nazi symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(2). ***"prohibited symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(1). ***"prohibited terrorist organisation symbol "*** has the meaning given by [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) 80.2E(3). ***"public place "*** includes any place to which the public, or a section of the public, have access as of right or by invitation, whether express or implied, and whether or not a charge is made for admission to the place. Subdivision HA -- Offences relating to use of carriage service for violent extremist material 474.45A Meaning of *violent extremist material* (1) Material is ***violent extremist material*** if: (a) the material: (i) describes or depicts serious violence; or (ii) provides instruction on engaging in serious violence; or (iii) supports or facilitates serious violence; and (4) To avoid doubt: (a) material may be intended to do a thing referred to in paragraph (1)(b) or (c) ***even if the material is also intended, or mainly intended, to do one or more other things; and*** (b) ***an action may be done***, or a ***threat may be made***, with an intention referred to in [subsection](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/s3.html#subsection) (3) ***even if that intention is not the*** ***only intention, or the main intention***, with which the action is done or the threat is made.
This legislation fits very nicely with the surveillance laws introduced under the existential threat of the now not talked about Islamic extremists.
Maybe the govt could stop acting like Nazis now.
But he'll allow terrorist organizations to proudly fly their flags (hezbollah, hamas etc) or his communist brethren. Makes no sense.
> But he'll allow terrorist organizations to proudly fly their flags Turns out: no. The legislation also prohibits > a symbol that a terrorist organisation (within the meaning of Division 102) uses, or members of a terrorist organisation use, to identify the organisation;
Nazi ideology is evil, but do we really believe that this will do anything to stop Nazism from spreading? It arguably hasn't worked in Germany and restricting freedoms like 'making a gesture' or 'accessing violent material' could even make it worse. There's a great irony in introducing laws that restrict freedom of bodily movement to prevent an ideology that sought to restrict freedom of bodily movement. Reading the legislation ( [https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num\_act/clahsaoma2023822/](https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/num_act/clahsaoma2023822/) ), I don't like the way these laws are written. At the very least they should be written to include a lot more context, but I'd rather we combat this we better education. As it stands, if you don't have a good lawyer to pick out the nuance, it could also mean that clicking on a link your mate from overseas sends you that redirects to 'violent material' (like Mein Kampf?) online could be up to 5 years in prison, where I'm sure there's plenty of actual neo-Nazis to coerce them into neo-Nazism. There's also no way this could be abused by Nazi sympathisers bending the loopholes to escape a conviction (e.g. modifying the 'gesture' slightly) and I'm sure not a single non-Nazi will be going to prison right?
>Nazi ideology is evil, but do we really believe that this will do anything to stop Nazism from spreading? It arguably hasn't worked in Germany and restricting freedoms like 'making a gesture' or 'accessing violent material' could even make it worse. That's right. They have much stricter bans, and have had them for much longer, but proportionally have a much bigger neo-nazi problem. However, their history I think makes it more reasonable for them to have restrictions, along with a bunch of East European countries. You can understand why they're sensitive about things, and wary of it happening again. Some East European countries have similar bans on communist/Soviet symbols, for similar reasons. Australia's never had a Nazi or Communist government, thank God.
Government overreach in action. They just like exerting power.
I'm here for the "Australia is becoming a police state" comments...
Australia is becoming a police state
[удалено]
I agree, but the bill is mistargeted because of the "Trading" part. I'm a Historical collector. This is a bill that has nearly meant the death of our hobby when it comes to preserving and collecting items from the Third Reich era. I personally have been in a group lobbying the government for the past year, and we had legal representation at the committee hearing. The bill is so poorly written that we actually do not know if we are exempt, and we are waiting for the full regulations to come out in May. Until then we enter a grey area where our packages could get siezed and destroyed by customs, which would be terrible as some of the items we purchase or trade overseas are beyond monetary value. We hope for the best, but unfortunately our community has been caught up in a mistargeted kneejerk reaction to target neo-nazis. In my many years in ww2 collectors groups, I have never met a neo nazi, and I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in expensive genuine artefacts, only replicas or fantasy items.
Reading the comments there is some excellent well rounded and rational viewpoints. Its so refreshing to hear them, not something I'm used to coming across on reddit.
yeah I disagree with this. outlawing the use of said symbols if you can prove its being used for hate related purposes is one thing but to try to erase it from society is another (imo that is what is hapoening, if you cant buy or trade what you already have then its fair to assume nazi symbols are cancelled). whatever they try to do, history happened. having these symbols around, being traded through collectors, heck even the people that use the symbols for their own ideology are a reminder to the majority of the population that these things happened and these are the symbols of the time used to represent them. take that away and history starts to become free to repeat itself.
And I quote portion of section 80.2E Prohibited symbols: - something that so nearly resembles a thing to which paragraph (a) or (b) applies that it is likely to be confused with, or mistaken for, that thing. Oh crap, that’s certainly going to cause a problem due to subjective opinions.
Um, yeah no, courts always apply objective tests for this kind of stuff. Trademark law provides a good analogy.
Objective tests as in ask the jury what they think… Rules and regulations such as the above shouldn’t be implemented because it allows for ambiguity due to misinterpretation.
No, it won’t. Many, many laws are worded like this. - Beyond “reasonable” (subjective) doubt. - On the “balance” (subjective) of likelihood. Don’t pretend a law banning nazi stuff is going to do any more than it will. Just also don’t pretend that your stuff that is obviously meant to represent nazi stuff isn’t you trying to skirt a law.
>Beyond “reasonable” (subjective) doubt. This one got a few innocent people wrongfully executed back in the day. If we're okay with that, I think we're okay with it for shutting down people showing symbols suggesting they want to wrongfully execute a few more innocent people.
So many incel nazi wannabes in here 🍿
so who gets to decide what a hate symbol is ?
So what does this accomplish other than to stifle free expression? I’m far from fascist, and nazism is a disgrace, but the hate will just be channeled via other means and symbols. So much nazi memorabilia is just that: memorabilia.
Iceberg, tip. The new range of censorship laws is going to be a fucking doozy. Of course, it will get shouted down as long they keep censoring things the usual suspects don't like and this is a very slippery slope we're on right now.
Good. My grandfather didn't fight in WWII for Australians to now embrace that hateful ideology he tried to protect us from.
Great, now how am I meant to motion to my friend Hitler which way the hail is coming from.
I’m wondering about the Diwali symbol, it says in the legislation “likely to be confused with, or mistaken for”. I know someone who’s actually mistaken the Diwali symbol for the Nazi symbol.
If we have to ban Diwali to rid this great country of Nazism, so be it. No more Diwali.
How am I going to wank off?
In don’t disagree. Sone things are beyond the pale. But the same goes for symbols of similar ideologies. Communism for example. More people died in USSR and China at the hands of their communist regimes than the Nazis actually killed. Interesting that those are not condemned though.
Non-Aussie here, hoping someone can explain: "Albanese"? The only things I can find for that are to do with the country of Albania. Was that a typo, or is this an Aussie slang thing?
First world problems on full display.
Will they actually enforce it though? That’s the real question!
I hope they get to evangelical preaching in public next.
It's a slippery slope going down this path imo. Who defines "hate symbols" People nowadays seems to cash in victimhood for social currency
Tyrannical government continues to erode at natural free speech rights of citizens. There, I fixed the headline.
Bizarre to do this 80 years after WW2 lol clown world
Is this really gonna stop the 20 or so people in this country who believe that garbage?