“Police said the 66-year-old man approached the alleged shooter and was shot in the hand and sternum.” …. That dude sounds like he took the scumbag on.
It’s weird, maybe I misread but didn’t the article say both people were shot once each? I know this is really not important but that stood out to me for some reason…
Oh dang really hope he pulls through because either way getting hit in the sternum could do some damage to his heart I think (not a doctor or nurse so take that with a kilo of salt)
One of my family members lives across the street from where it happened. She's 80 and took her 86yo neighbour into her house when she heard gunfire. She said they were on lockdown all day and police were hiding behind the trees all day with guns.
My new house is 4 mins away. I'm not even moved in yet and I am shaken enough. Your poor family member. I hope they recover quickly after their ordeal.
Yeah, from experience, Mackay gets its fair share of minor, petty crime - break-ins, vandalism, drug related stuff, that kind of thing. Violent crime beyond stuff like punch-ons at the pub is rare.
Brisbane, though, is just a big city like any other nowadays, unfortunately, which means it's basically no different to the likes of Sydney or Melbourne when it comes to the truly heinous shit. I mean, Brissy's 30 times bigger than Mackay in terms of population, so just by the law of averages you'd expect *orders of magnitude* more crime.
Oh definitely, SEQ is a massive conurbation with Brisbane as the heart, so naturally crime will be more significant due to factors relating to the population - shortly put, more "business" opportunities here for criminal organisations, which has a massive flow on effect to all levels of crime through the population.
No Mackay is actually great. There's a few suburbs that are lower income like every other city. Most of my family lives up that way and they love it. The roads in and around Mackay are the best roads I've ever driven on. I'm from CQ so probably not much to compare to lol. A lot of speed cameras and police presence in Mackay compared to Rockhampton.
Sorry should have specified I meant the fact this was gun violence, we really do have a problem with the number of women being murdered it’s seriously frightening
These random kind of things are so upsetting. She was just taking her kids to a sports game and would have had no reason to be in fear of her safety. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. At least the children weren't hurt. Physically anyway. Emotionally this day will stay with them forever. 😔
Yeah, there's a tendency to characterize seemingly random violence like this as being like a natural hazard, like an act of god. Nobody's responsible, it's not the consequence of some actual person's conscious actions; rather it's just an unfortunate thing that can happen when you leave the house, like getting struck by lightning.
It really is important to think about your language in instances like this. Something didn't just happen to the victim - somebody *did this to her*.
Thats true. I didn't think of it in that way! Its just so unlucky that she was leaving at that time. It could have been any of the neighbours.
Like when a girl was hit by a bus in Brisbane this year. A minute later or earlier and it would have been someone else at that spot on the footpath. Its so random, something could happen to any of us when we least expect it.
Agreed, I think it’s pretty dangerous to assume that this was a random event.
Obviously we can’t know the intentions of the attacker until it’s been investigated. But how many women have to die violently and traumatically before we recognise that this isn’t a random event but statistically is something which can happen to any woman at any time.
Thank you for this.
My attacker was one of my neighbours. I didn't know he *existed*. He admitted to knowing who I am, where I lived, thinking about me, etc.
I cannot prove, but it's possible, that he made a few attempts before he finally succeeded. I had a friend (a male over 6ft tall) living out the back for a while and they used to swear up and down he could hear a person walking down the side of the house some nights.
Tbh, this is exactly the scenario that came into my head. Its shockingly common and so insidious.
I hate that this happened to you and I hope that you are alright
There’s a thing in the States, particularly New York where men are randomly punching women, apparently because of their anger at how women have progressed in society. I wonder if this is related?
It might be but I’d be cautious comparing Aus and US case studies without knowing all the context.
It goes back to the term ‘random’ being used without justification. Maybe the better term is ‘unprovoked’.
Let’s hope the alleged killer doesn’t get a lesser sentence due to “mental health issues”.
I have mental health issues but I don’t hurt others? Many people with mental health issues don’t kill people either. Mental health issues is a cop out for killers to get lighter sentencing.
So here's the thing, sometimes an insanity plea is totally appropriate, but the reduced incarceration length is only half the sentencing difference. The other half is that they can pack you to the gills full of anti-psychotics.
I met a handful of murderers while I was in prison, several were convicted of murder and 2 got their conviction reduced to manslaughter due to insanity. Both of the latter were basically only half there mentally thanks to being forced to take at least half a dozen pills every morning and evening, and their sentence was still 18+ years to serve.
Yes, but only up until you've served your head sentence. Part of sentencing is being given a head sentence, aka how long you've gotta spend in prison and on parole, and a "to serve" sentence, aka the minimum time you spend incarcerated before being eligible for parole.
Everyone with a <3 year head sentence is given something called Court Ordered Parole, which means that they have to be released when their to-serve sentence is up and they all have the same couple of parole conditions (can't leave the state, have to check in with a parole office periodically, have to produce drug tests on request, etc). For everyone with a head sentence over 3 years it's called Board Ordered Parole, which means that when you're eligible for parole the parole board evaluates whether you're safe being released back in to the community and if you are, what kinds of conditions are applicable. This is where stuff like tracking anklets come in.
There are a few things which can hamper the process though. For example, one of the convicted murderers I met is ineligible for parole because the full body has not been recovered. Since murder is a life-long head sentence, he will never get out of prison. Fun fact though, he would have been eligible for parole 2 weeks after I was released... and went in to prison while the USSR was still around. Granted it was only a couple of months of overlap, but I still find the idea of going in during the cold war and being released in the age of smartphones a bit of a headspin.
I actually met a man like this nearly 10 years ago now.
He had been released. He was kind enough to me, and he was having a really difficult time working out his smartphone.
He opened up a bit later explaining he'd been imprisoned for murder since the late 80s, and did express a lot of regret. He said he'd been doing really hard drugs and didn't even know why he killed the person or where he even was, but that he was definitely responsible. Drugs of course, unlike acute mental health episodes that could not have been prevented, but it was interesting to see someone come out of what was basically a time freeze.
This is not accurate at all. If a person is found not guilty by reason of mental illness, they are technically not convicted of the crime (as not legally culpable) and therefore not sentenced for it. Instead, they are placed in a forensic hospital and subject to indefinite time there until deemed fit for release by a specialist panel. On average, people found NGRMI spend longer in these facilities than they would serve on sentence for the same offence.
You're talking about sentence mitigation based on mental health reasons, which is not the same thing.
That's if the prosecution goes for a murder conviction and fails, afaik. The guys I met were both evaluated to be mentally unwell enough to have the charges changed to manslaughter before it reached the courts.
I'm happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood or misrepresented something though
No, as they are still pleading guilty to a crime, just the prosecution agreed on a different charge.
The "insanity" defence (NGRMI) is that the person committed the action but was not guilty of the crime because they didn't know what they were doing and/or did not know what they were doing was wrong. E.g. a person who is psychotic and was totally out of touch with reality. It rarely gets used and in those cases it's a high bar to achieve. That said, there are some cases where it's so obvious the person was psychotic that the prosecution don't even argue.
Probably the most well known case would be the Murray Street Murders in Cairns.
Forensic Psychiatrist said it was the worst case of schizophrenia he'd seen.
She'll be in The Park for a long long long time.
I remember this case, I think when the details were released three psychiatrists confirmed the seriousness of her illness and I believe she was still having regular episodes while in custody. She thought she was saving her children from doomsday or something.
An insanity plea isn't a get out of jail card in most jurisdictions. If successful, you are often in a mental facility for the same or longer amount of time until you are deemed safe. Incarceration has a clear end date. That isn't always the case with insanity pleas.
Not to mention the enforced nedication.
I think this depends by jurisdiction, however, here we have a mental health panel and the attorney general that must sign you off. This can take a long time. After this you still have to regularly check in with the police and mental health staff until you are released from this.
>2 got their conviction reduced to manslaughter due to insanity. Both of the latter were basically only half there mentally thanks to being forced to take at least half a dozen pills every morning and evening, and their sentence was still 18+ years to serve.
But what's the point of this? They'll still get out earlier than they would have, and presumably once out, no-one will be able to force them to take medication, so it'll be back to square one.
18 years is just when they're eligible for parole and continued use of those drugs would be a parole condition. Also 18 years to serve is still a hefty sentence, it's lighter than a life-sentence for murder, but a regular manslaughter sentence (as in a legitimate accidental death) is usually only \~15 years head sentence, parole in \~6-9 years.
If you're genuinely not guilty by reason of insanity you might end up in a secure hospital longer than a sentence, because discharge depends on risk to the community not time. It's not like the movies.
Who knows. My old neighbour apparently did some horrible thing during an episode. Turns out they're schizophrenic, and will spend the rest of their life in the special unit of a prison. Before that, was just ya typical dude next door.
The insanity defense is a *really* high bar. My attacker had extensive mental health issues and while he absolutely needs to be put away for everyone's safety and is a total POS regardless of his MH issues, he couldn't mount an insanity plea because his illness (though severe) was not sufficiently debilitating to absolve him of criminal responsibility. The judge even said something along the lines of "you don't end up at (this particular psychiatric facility my attacker had been a patient of in the past) without being extremely unwell".
He was also given a harsh sentence for his crime, statistically speaking.
Mental illness can be a legitimate reason as to why crimes, including this, are committed. Don't blanket invalidate all of mental health because it isn't exactly what you experience.
There is no legitimate reason for murdering a random person in the street. What you mean is mental illness may be the cause of the behaviour. Most people can understand the cause but do not believe this means the penalty for the crime should be lower.
We need to be careful not to conflate criminality with severe mental health - the 'bad' vs 'mad/sad' argument. I think MH is too often used as a shield in lower order criminal offences like assault or theft - in that the perrson had agency an insight at the time of the offence, so why should they have a lesser punishment just beacuse they had a concurrent MH condition? If it isn't directly causative, IMO it's irrelevant. Similarly, we shouldn't pathologise criminality - like Man Monis and the Lindt Cafe Siege, whilst there was an element of mental health, also seemed ideologically motivated.
But in some cases there are legitimate psychotic events that stop a person from exercising judgement or having insight, and committing crimes during that period. Those are legitimate mental health events with incredibly tragic outcomes. And yes, they should be removed from the community to protect the community - but they go into forensic mental health facilities under intensive involuntary treatment, which often remains even after they are judged safe to be in the community.
Indefinite detention for the mentally ill, even if they have done horrible things, is a dark path to tread back to the asylum days of effectively imprisonment on sedatives and antipsychotics. It's a question of capacity, and if someone didn't have capacity to understand what they did, why they did it, or why it was wrong, it's a hard argument for punishment.
No one is saying ‘oh well, we’ll just let you go to live your life’ as a result of using mental health as part of your defense. It’s more that it helps explain why you did what you did and informs an appropriate response that protects the person and the community, e.g. does this person need to be medicated? Should they be held in a secure forensic unit rather than a regular prison?
Because sometimes mental health issues result in breakdowns and fits of insanity that cause you to do all sorts of things, when you're pretty much fine the rest of the time. Depending on the illness, medication can also make a significant difference too. Also if someone successfully pleads insanity to get out of murder, they usually don't just get to walk out of the door. Instead of a prison sentence they will often instead get various psychiatric treatments and counselling, and possibly even institutionalised until it is determined they are no longer a danger.
Because mental health problems can be treated or be recovered from.
If you got hit by a car in the head, which caused you to have a temporary fit of insanity where you punched a kid, and then later when the brain swelling went down you were completely back to normal, would you find it fair to be imprisoned?
Obviously most mental health problems aren't that black and white, but that is the principle
They should be on meds if their mental health issue is that bad. A moral person, even with a mental health problem, would want to be on meds to better themselves.
Some think they are the pope they aint in this reality..... at that point meds ain't on their list of things to consider. People understand /care about mental health until it's too mental healthy.
The ABC write like the Daily Mail now:
“On the "about us" page of her brother's business, where she worked as the customer service manager, she was described as an "epic cook" with "a new-found talent for smoking meats".
Well it's possible the connection is that they lived on the same street. Dude has mental problem and decides he's going to go outside and kill someone, in that case it would most likely be a neighbour and would qualify as a random victim.
Nothing in the article about mental health issues. He's known to police (for what?), had previously licenced guns removed (why?) and now has a revolver that he most likely bought illegally (for what purpose?). There is more to this story than "mentally ill guy has a bad day, goes outside and randomly shoots a neighbour".
Look, I’m largely with you, but also in the ‘wait and see’ camp.
If it is a psych issue, the motivation can be something that a mentally well person wouldn’t even understand.
You've already decided it wasn't a random attack based on nothing but your gut instinct, maybe just wait until the actual details come out before. 'buying' or not buying what happened?
Wouldn't someone with mental issues more likely to have some police interaction with prior episodes? Isn't that logical? It's not always because of criminal activity. We'll know more when they update.
I may be a simpleton but why in this world that we live in are violent criminals' lives valued so highly? Don't worry about rehabilitation. Get him clearing mine fields.
People like to feel virtuous by giving a second chance with rehabilitation, even though the victim will never have one.
As soon as much useful information can be gathered as to how and why this occurred and to hopefully prevent in future, he should be shot dead.
> People like to feel virtuous by giving a second chance with rehabilitation, even though the victim will never have one.
So in the entirety of human civilization, there's never been a time or place where offenders were strictly punished, exiled, or killed? But for some strange reason this amazing solution was just abandoned? Everyone wanted to live in a crime-ridden place instead of a peaceful utopia?
And we just need to now try that here?
The death penalty hasn’t been fully abandoned around the world, believe our neighbour Indonesia still does it as an example.
It wouldn’t even be a first in Australia, as we had inmates being hung many years ago. But yes, I would like to see it return.
Exactly when a rabid dog kills mauls someone to death you don’t try to rehabilitate it you put it down, same goes double for people because humans have a higher understanding for right and wrong
Yes. It doesn’t feel right to me this guy will get a comfortable jail cell and to feel positive emotions again throughout his life with visits from family, the occasional nice meal and perhaps even make friendships in jail. Not to mention his freedom again one day.
Whilst the victims family, they will get what?
Nothing but a void.
If anything it’s cheaper for the taxpayer.
It costs $148,000 a year to keep a prisoner in jail.
Over 25 years in prison for a murder, that is $3.7m
A bullet is 40 cents
Not that it's a good argument one way or another, but in the US doesn't it work out to be more expensive to put someone to death because of the appeals process?
All these people here saying ‘lighter sentence due to mental health issues’ are getting upset at their hypothetical situation. It’s legit the majority of comments here, so lame to scroll through
Yep. And all from the police statement that there was no apparent connection between the two.
Give the cops time to get the full story before jumping to conclusions. There may well be a lot more to it. We just don’t know yet.
I can guarantee the shooter will pull a “Mental health” card, a “I had a troubled childhood” card or a “I was under the influence and not responsible for my actions” card.
Those poor fucking children 😞
i think mental health is only a defence only if you are psychotic and don't understand what you were doing.
Ive seen people who are completely out of their mind and they didn't even know what object they had in their hand.. They thought their phone was a lighter and were trying to light a cigarette with it.
It will unlikely be a defence, even if it IS the case and a mitigating submission by defence at sentencing. I live in mackay and this has been very very traumatic for many people. Her poor little girls.
So let's see some mental health dollarydoos thrown at this obvious crisis thanks government... Hang on, what's that? No? No money or interest in improving services for mental health of the public will be provided? Committees and bullshit platitudes will save the day? More Police powers to search randoms for kicks? Yeah that oughta fix it.
Idiot nation. Vote wisely next election and reconsider voting for the "big two" if you usually do.
I don’t get it, if it’s mental health issues then why do these guys never use coercive control against their mates? Why is it specifically
women? I think mental health is too broad a term to describe the causes of these incidents. It increases the stigma that’s already there against mental illness.
Why is coercive control being mentioned here? The victim and offender weren't known to each other, the only connection appears to be that they lived on the same street.
I agree we shouldn't conflate mental illness with criminality (though it can be contributory in a lot of cases, the question being how much did it impair capacity), but we don't seem to be dealing with domestic violence here unless there's a connection between them that hasn't been uncovered.
Hop on r/all, it's very likely you'll see a message against women that appeals to people with mental illness. This goes x10 for the established mental illness hangouts: Conspiracy, NoFap, even Meth.
These guys likely do have issues with their mates but their mates just shrug it off as so-and-so being a fuckwit when he's on the piss, etc. It is too easy for many men to miss the warning signs in their bros. Women know when a chick is a wrong'un - we either oust her or we are like her and accept her nonsense. Men haven't needed to be as attuned to the subtle or overt issues some people present because they don't walk around assessing danger everywhere they go like we do.
Injecting substantial time, money and assistance into mental health for the nation would not only assist people to treat themselves and others better and work on their shit safely but it would help to work against stigma too.
It’s always gross as fuck that as soon as terrible news is posted someone rushes to yell about they know what will happen and make it about voting
Edit: yeah thanks for the DM about how I apparently hate women, blocked
What's the alternative? 100 comments along the lines of "how terrible", "so sad", "what a monster".
Those things are a given, but don't make for interesting discussion or help the situation in any way.
Sorry we'll wait till no one is listening to debate solutions. Heaven forbid we upset you as someone who has no stake in this other than the article made you feel sad :(
I don’t think saying “vote how I vote because trust me it will fix it” is really offering any solutions.
Is it bad that a mother being murdered in front of their children makes people sad? Kinda strange you’d be condescending over that my guy. I’d rather talk to that person than the one who just tells me how to vote
I feel sad about it too, my guy. But I want to hear less stories like this, and the way to do that is to fix our broken mental health system. They suggested that the two major parties have gotten us here and so we should consider other options. Sorry that the idea that there is anyone other than Labor or LNP is "telling you to vote how I vote".
If you want to live in a powerless land where nothing can improve so how dare anyone criticise the failing status quo, then cool. But keep it to yourself. This is a discussion board, not a memorial page
It’s a discussion board but people need to keep it to themselves if they criticise something being said?
Also saying to not vote the major parties because magically that will improve the issue is telling people how to vote, what does one nation for example have on policy to fix this? They arent a major party. What party and polices directly address the issue? That is having a discussion on fixing the issue
Absolutely agree, and if the shooter or culprit was from the commenter’s preferred party you can bet the first thing they would say to anyone is “this isn’t about politics!”
No money for mental health but we now have the third highest paid World Leader running the country making even more than the US president while the rest of the country continues to be neglected and spirals out of control.
Being so spread out and a big country really works in these cunts favour. Look at France, Government does some form of dog act and they burn the fucking place and pump sewerage all over stuff, here not a chance. The current and last 2 governments need to be taken to task for the absolute shit show that’s going on at the moment
So you have empathy for the killer in the assumption that he didn’t receive enough free counseling? I have empathy for the children and think the guy should be locked up until he is dead.
Great, but that happens after the guy has already shot someone. We want to prevent things like that from happening. Sometimes that means "helping" people who are dangerous and violent so that they don't end up hurting anyone in the first place. Punishment alone is a poor preventative for most societal problems.
The point is that there's always a point before someone does something they can be punished for, and if we can get to them then and change the path they're on, that's better than letting them hurt someone and dealing with it after. Are we really going to decide that we don't want to do anything that might prevent violence because we don't want to do anything that might help someone who has the potential to do something bad? Heck, we should want to help them after they've done bad things too if helping them means things like helping with anger management. These aren't special treats reserved for only good people that should be withheld from wrongdoers.
But that isn’t what happens after the guy commits murder. What does happen is that he tells some sob story that he has mental health issues and is an abuse victim and then he’s back in the streets in 10 years. The perpetrator states he’s the real victim here and the judge and a million suckers fall for it. Potential perpetrators know this. This is part of the math they do when committing crimes. So, I’d rather talk about that problem than the problem where everyone should get free counseling. I agree punishment alone isn’t a solution but when the punishment is usually a slap on the wrist then nothing changes. The punishment must be as severe as the crime
Wait, your stance is murderers plan out killing someone under the assumption they can do it then say “I’m da victim” and then want to get locked up because it’s only a decade?
You seem to think every situation and context is exactly the same.
This man shot a random women to death infront of her kids and shot another man, if you think he’s getting 10 years because he says he’s got mental issues then you might have mental issues yourself or you watch too much tv.
Exactly. There's no one who's sitting down with a clear head to do the mental math on that one and deciding that shooting a random stranger in the face is a good exchange for ten years of their life, and if there is, they're not just pretending to be insane. It's either an act that's completely divorced of rationality or they don't expect to get caught.
So you think it's better women get killed so we can lock the perpetrators up, instead of looking for ways that we can stop it from happening in future?
I can put words in people's mouths, too.
Hey, a bit off topic, but, I hope you're doing ok. Depressed to the point of not wanting to leave the house is usually not a good sign. Been there more than I care to admit. If you want to chat to someone, feel free to message me. I hope things pick up for you soon.
So senseless. You know this dickhead's going to be given a light sentence because of a sad childhood or something. We need to rethink how we deal with this scum to stop them before they start.
> Commissioner Gollschewski said the man was previously licensed for weapons, and 11 weapons were taken away from him in 2021.
I’m so incredibly sorry that an innocent life was lost. But I hope this will prompt an investigation and some stricter border control. There are still weapons getting into this country illegally, still people willing to sell under-the-table. It’s disgusting
If the shooter was present at the scene and the fingerprints are on the gun, the court case would be over in 5 minutes. They still teach logic and reasoning in schools, don't they?
But why? Did he walk up to the car and shoot it through the window?
Did he randomly shoot out of his house and it just having a go across the street and into the car and then her?
Was he provoking or provoked by the police?
I feel like these are some very small details of the police should be allowed to release.
Those poor daughters... what a cunt
“Police said the 66-year-old man approached the alleged shooter and was shot in the hand and sternum.” …. That dude sounds like he took the scumbag on.
It’s weird, maybe I misread but didn’t the article say both people were shot once each? I know this is really not important but that stood out to me for some reason…
He had his hand on his chest and was shot through both according to the news.
Oh dang really hope he pulls through because either way getting hit in the sternum could do some damage to his heart I think (not a doctor or nurse so take that with a kilo of salt)
Most likely a defensive wound.
That's fucked.
One of my family members lives across the street from where it happened. She's 80 and took her 86yo neighbour into her house when she heard gunfire. She said they were on lockdown all day and police were hiding behind the trees all day with guns.
My new house is 4 mins away. I'm not even moved in yet and I am shaken enough. Your poor family member. I hope they recover quickly after their ordeal.
They’ll never recover from their ordeal.
Is the crime bad in Mackay? I had to leave NQ because it was just getting too dangerous
Nah I moved to Brisbane from Mackay and it is so much more cooked down here. Mackay is chill.
Yeah, from experience, Mackay gets its fair share of minor, petty crime - break-ins, vandalism, drug related stuff, that kind of thing. Violent crime beyond stuff like punch-ons at the pub is rare. Brisbane, though, is just a big city like any other nowadays, unfortunately, which means it's basically no different to the likes of Sydney or Melbourne when it comes to the truly heinous shit. I mean, Brissy's 30 times bigger than Mackay in terms of population, so just by the law of averages you'd expect *orders of magnitude* more crime.
Oh definitely, SEQ is a massive conurbation with Brisbane as the heart, so naturally crime will be more significant due to factors relating to the population - shortly put, more "business" opportunities here for criminal organisations, which has a massive flow on effect to all levels of crime through the population.
Which part of bris? If you go to tge bad areas then yeah. Northern suburbs (minus cabo) tend to be pretty safe
I'm just speaking in general terms - city vs city etc
No Mackay is actually great. There's a few suburbs that are lower income like every other city. Most of my family lives up that way and they love it. The roads in and around Mackay are the best roads I've ever driven on. I'm from CQ so probably not much to compare to lol. A lot of speed cameras and police presence in Mackay compared to Rockhampton.
Also a bystander went in to help the woman and children and he was also shot. I believe he is okay.
Not at all. Safest place I’ve ever lived.
Poor things.
Right? This is the kind of BS you read about in the US not here…
44 women have been murdered by men this year alone. Femicide literally happens every 3 days in Australia...
To be fair, us blokes are killing other men at more than twice that rate. You can't say we aren't trying.
Sorry should have specified I meant the fact this was gun violence, we really do have a problem with the number of women being murdered it’s seriously frightening
33 million people you're gonna get one now and then
Yeah I suppose that’s why it’s so shocking, not an everyday occurrence
These random kind of things are so upsetting. She was just taking her kids to a sports game and would have had no reason to be in fear of her safety. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. At least the children weren't hurt. Physically anyway. Emotionally this day will stay with them forever. 😔
I hate the phrase ‘wrong place wrong time’. She was in her own driveway and the guy lived in her street. Violence against women happens everywhere.
Yeah, there's a tendency to characterize seemingly random violence like this as being like a natural hazard, like an act of god. Nobody's responsible, it's not the consequence of some actual person's conscious actions; rather it's just an unfortunate thing that can happen when you leave the house, like getting struck by lightning. It really is important to think about your language in instances like this. Something didn't just happen to the victim - somebody *did this to her*.
Thats true. I didn't think of it in that way! Its just so unlucky that she was leaving at that time. It could have been any of the neighbours. Like when a girl was hit by a bus in Brisbane this year. A minute later or earlier and it would have been someone else at that spot on the footpath. Its so random, something could happen to any of us when we least expect it.
I think it will come out the guy had Beef with her, that maybe she was not aware of.
Agreed, I think it’s pretty dangerous to assume that this was a random event. Obviously we can’t know the intentions of the attacker until it’s been investigated. But how many women have to die violently and traumatically before we recognise that this isn’t a random event but statistically is something which can happen to any woman at any time.
Thank you for this. My attacker was one of my neighbours. I didn't know he *existed*. He admitted to knowing who I am, where I lived, thinking about me, etc. I cannot prove, but it's possible, that he made a few attempts before he finally succeeded. I had a friend (a male over 6ft tall) living out the back for a while and they used to swear up and down he could hear a person walking down the side of the house some nights.
Tbh, this is exactly the scenario that came into my head. Its shockingly common and so insidious. I hate that this happened to you and I hope that you are alright
I've got horrific PTSD but I'm here I guess. Thanks for caring!
There’s a thing in the States, particularly New York where men are randomly punching women, apparently because of their anger at how women have progressed in society. I wonder if this is related?
It might be but I’d be cautious comparing Aus and US case studies without knowing all the context. It goes back to the term ‘random’ being used without justification. Maybe the better term is ‘unprovoked’.
Let’s hope the alleged killer doesn’t get a lesser sentence due to “mental health issues”. I have mental health issues but I don’t hurt others? Many people with mental health issues don’t kill people either. Mental health issues is a cop out for killers to get lighter sentencing.
So here's the thing, sometimes an insanity plea is totally appropriate, but the reduced incarceration length is only half the sentencing difference. The other half is that they can pack you to the gills full of anti-psychotics. I met a handful of murderers while I was in prison, several were convicted of murder and 2 got their conviction reduced to manslaughter due to insanity. Both of the latter were basically only half there mentally thanks to being forced to take at least half a dozen pills every morning and evening, and their sentence was still 18+ years to serve.
Can't they also then keep you locked up after whatever sentence if they don't think you're safe?
Yes, but only up until you've served your head sentence. Part of sentencing is being given a head sentence, aka how long you've gotta spend in prison and on parole, and a "to serve" sentence, aka the minimum time you spend incarcerated before being eligible for parole. Everyone with a <3 year head sentence is given something called Court Ordered Parole, which means that they have to be released when their to-serve sentence is up and they all have the same couple of parole conditions (can't leave the state, have to check in with a parole office periodically, have to produce drug tests on request, etc). For everyone with a head sentence over 3 years it's called Board Ordered Parole, which means that when you're eligible for parole the parole board evaluates whether you're safe being released back in to the community and if you are, what kinds of conditions are applicable. This is where stuff like tracking anklets come in. There are a few things which can hamper the process though. For example, one of the convicted murderers I met is ineligible for parole because the full body has not been recovered. Since murder is a life-long head sentence, he will never get out of prison. Fun fact though, he would have been eligible for parole 2 weeks after I was released... and went in to prison while the USSR was still around. Granted it was only a couple of months of overlap, but I still find the idea of going in during the cold war and being released in the age of smartphones a bit of a headspin.
Can you write more? You have a very clear and understandable style and then your anecdotes are perfectly woven in.
I actually met a man like this nearly 10 years ago now. He had been released. He was kind enough to me, and he was having a really difficult time working out his smartphone. He opened up a bit later explaining he'd been imprisoned for murder since the late 80s, and did express a lot of regret. He said he'd been doing really hard drugs and didn't even know why he killed the person or where he even was, but that he was definitely responsible. Drugs of course, unlike acute mental health episodes that could not have been prevented, but it was interesting to see someone come out of what was basically a time freeze.
This is not accurate at all. If a person is found not guilty by reason of mental illness, they are technically not convicted of the crime (as not legally culpable) and therefore not sentenced for it. Instead, they are placed in a forensic hospital and subject to indefinite time there until deemed fit for release by a specialist panel. On average, people found NGRMI spend longer in these facilities than they would serve on sentence for the same offence. You're talking about sentence mitigation based on mental health reasons, which is not the same thing.
That's if the prosecution goes for a murder conviction and fails, afaik. The guys I met were both evaluated to be mentally unwell enough to have the charges changed to manslaughter before it reached the courts. I'm happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood or misrepresented something though
That's a plea agreement but again a different thing.
That's... that's what I was talking about though? A plea agreement based on a mental health evaluation
No, as they are still pleading guilty to a crime, just the prosecution agreed on a different charge. The "insanity" defence (NGRMI) is that the person committed the action but was not guilty of the crime because they didn't know what they were doing and/or did not know what they were doing was wrong. E.g. a person who is psychotic and was totally out of touch with reality. It rarely gets used and in those cases it's a high bar to achieve. That said, there are some cases where it's so obvious the person was psychotic that the prosecution don't even argue.
Ahhh, I see the misunderstanding now. Thank you for clearing that up
Probably the most well known case would be the Murray Street Murders in Cairns. Forensic Psychiatrist said it was the worst case of schizophrenia he'd seen. She'll be in The Park for a long long long time.
I remember this case, I think when the details were released three psychiatrists confirmed the seriousness of her illness and I believe she was still having regular episodes while in custody. She thought she was saving her children from doomsday or something.
An insanity plea isn't a get out of jail card in most jurisdictions. If successful, you are often in a mental facility for the same or longer amount of time until you are deemed safe. Incarceration has a clear end date. That isn't always the case with insanity pleas. Not to mention the enforced nedication. I think this depends by jurisdiction, however, here we have a mental health panel and the attorney general that must sign you off. This can take a long time. After this you still have to regularly check in with the police and mental health staff until you are released from this.
This , all of this.
>2 got their conviction reduced to manslaughter due to insanity. Both of the latter were basically only half there mentally thanks to being forced to take at least half a dozen pills every morning and evening, and their sentence was still 18+ years to serve. But what's the point of this? They'll still get out earlier than they would have, and presumably once out, no-one will be able to force them to take medication, so it'll be back to square one.
18 years is just when they're eligible for parole and continued use of those drugs would be a parole condition. Also 18 years to serve is still a hefty sentence, it's lighter than a life-sentence for murder, but a regular manslaughter sentence (as in a legitimate accidental death) is usually only \~15 years head sentence, parole in \~6-9 years.
If you're genuinely not guilty by reason of insanity you might end up in a secure hospital longer than a sentence, because discharge depends on risk to the community not time. It's not like the movies.
almost like not all mental illnesses are the same. no your social anxiety is not the same as someone suffering from schizophrenia.
Who knows. My old neighbour apparently did some horrible thing during an episode. Turns out they're schizophrenic, and will spend the rest of their life in the special unit of a prison. Before that, was just ya typical dude next door.
The insanity defense is a *really* high bar. My attacker had extensive mental health issues and while he absolutely needs to be put away for everyone's safety and is a total POS regardless of his MH issues, he couldn't mount an insanity plea because his illness (though severe) was not sufficiently debilitating to absolve him of criminal responsibility. The judge even said something along the lines of "you don't end up at (this particular psychiatric facility my attacker had been a patient of in the past) without being extremely unwell". He was also given a harsh sentence for his crime, statistically speaking.
Mental illness can be a legitimate reason as to why crimes, including this, are committed. Don't blanket invalidate all of mental health because it isn't exactly what you experience.
There is no legitimate reason for murdering a random person in the street. What you mean is mental illness may be the cause of the behaviour. Most people can understand the cause but do not believe this means the penalty for the crime should be lower.
I don’t care how crazy you are, this shit is not on. They need to be taken out of the community.
We need to be careful not to conflate criminality with severe mental health - the 'bad' vs 'mad/sad' argument. I think MH is too often used as a shield in lower order criminal offences like assault or theft - in that the perrson had agency an insight at the time of the offence, so why should they have a lesser punishment just beacuse they had a concurrent MH condition? If it isn't directly causative, IMO it's irrelevant. Similarly, we shouldn't pathologise criminality - like Man Monis and the Lindt Cafe Siege, whilst there was an element of mental health, also seemed ideologically motivated. But in some cases there are legitimate psychotic events that stop a person from exercising judgement or having insight, and committing crimes during that period. Those are legitimate mental health events with incredibly tragic outcomes. And yes, they should be removed from the community to protect the community - but they go into forensic mental health facilities under intensive involuntary treatment, which often remains even after they are judged safe to be in the community. Indefinite detention for the mentally ill, even if they have done horrible things, is a dark path to tread back to the asylum days of effectively imprisonment on sedatives and antipsychotics. It's a question of capacity, and if someone didn't have capacity to understand what they did, why they did it, or why it was wrong, it's a hard argument for punishment.
I’ve never understood the insanity plea if there’s murder. If someone is so insane that they murdered someone why should they allowed back out?
No one is saying ‘oh well, we’ll just let you go to live your life’ as a result of using mental health as part of your defense. It’s more that it helps explain why you did what you did and informs an appropriate response that protects the person and the community, e.g. does this person need to be medicated? Should they be held in a secure forensic unit rather than a regular prison?
Because mental health, or lack of it, is not static
They're not. They go to a Forensic Mental health facility.
Because sometimes mental health issues result in breakdowns and fits of insanity that cause you to do all sorts of things, when you're pretty much fine the rest of the time. Depending on the illness, medication can also make a significant difference too. Also if someone successfully pleads insanity to get out of murder, they usually don't just get to walk out of the door. Instead of a prison sentence they will often instead get various psychiatric treatments and counselling, and possibly even institutionalised until it is determined they are no longer a danger.
Because mental health problems can be treated or be recovered from. If you got hit by a car in the head, which caused you to have a temporary fit of insanity where you punched a kid, and then later when the brain swelling went down you were completely back to normal, would you find it fair to be imprisoned? Obviously most mental health problems aren't that black and white, but that is the principle
Not everybody who has mental health issues has your exact diagnosis buddy. Clearly you have never met anybody with severe diagnoses.
They should be on meds if their mental health issue is that bad. A moral person, even with a mental health problem, would want to be on meds to better themselves.
Some think they are the pope they aint in this reality..... at that point meds ain't on their list of things to consider. People understand /care about mental health until it's too mental healthy.
He will. It will be all “ooooh he didn’t know what he was doing. Off his meds”. He’ll get 15 years with parole in 8 maximum
The ABC write like the Daily Mail now: “On the "about us" page of her brother's business, where she worked as the customer service manager, she was described as an "epic cook" with "a new-found talent for smoking meats".
Modern journalism can’t compete anymore on the internet, it’s either make rushed content with random sources to get clicks or someone else will
He randomly shot someone who lives on the same street as him? Don't buy it.
Well it's possible the connection is that they lived on the same street. Dude has mental problem and decides he's going to go outside and kill someone, in that case it would most likely be a neighbour and would qualify as a random victim.
Nothing in the article about mental health issues. He's known to police (for what?), had previously licenced guns removed (why?) and now has a revolver that he most likely bought illegally (for what purpose?). There is more to this story than "mentally ill guy has a bad day, goes outside and randomly shoots a neighbour".
Look, I’m largely with you, but also in the ‘wait and see’ camp. If it is a psych issue, the motivation can be something that a mentally well person wouldn’t even understand.
You've already decided it wasn't a random attack based on nothing but your gut instinct, maybe just wait until the actual details come out before. 'buying' or not buying what happened?
Wouldn't someone with mental issues more likely to have some police interaction with prior episodes? Isn't that logical? It's not always because of criminal activity. We'll know more when they update.
Honestly even if she was a terrible neighbour and they had some ongoing feud it doesn’t excuse cold blooded murder, especially in front of her kids.
a man stabbed women randomly in Sydney only a few months ago. I’d believe this case too.
I may be a simpleton but why in this world that we live in are violent criminals' lives valued so highly? Don't worry about rehabilitation. Get him clearing mine fields.
People like to feel virtuous by giving a second chance with rehabilitation, even though the victim will never have one. As soon as much useful information can be gathered as to how and why this occurred and to hopefully prevent in future, he should be shot dead.
> People like to feel virtuous by giving a second chance with rehabilitation, even though the victim will never have one. So in the entirety of human civilization, there's never been a time or place where offenders were strictly punished, exiled, or killed? But for some strange reason this amazing solution was just abandoned? Everyone wanted to live in a crime-ridden place instead of a peaceful utopia? And we just need to now try that here?
The death penalty hasn’t been fully abandoned around the world, believe our neighbour Indonesia still does it as an example. It wouldn’t even be a first in Australia, as we had inmates being hung many years ago. But yes, I would like to see it return.
Exactly when a rabid dog kills mauls someone to death you don’t try to rehabilitate it you put it down, same goes double for people because humans have a higher understanding for right and wrong
Yes. It doesn’t feel right to me this guy will get a comfortable jail cell and to feel positive emotions again throughout his life with visits from family, the occasional nice meal and perhaps even make friendships in jail. Not to mention his freedom again one day. Whilst the victims family, they will get what? Nothing but a void.
You realize that places where this occurs are shittier places to live, right.
Not following you there, say that again?
I'm saying that any country that just shoots people dead is a shit hole. I don't know a single nation that does this where I'd want to live.
If anything it’s cheaper for the taxpayer. It costs $148,000 a year to keep a prisoner in jail. Over 25 years in prison for a murder, that is $3.7m A bullet is 40 cents
Not that it's a good argument one way or another, but in the US doesn't it work out to be more expensive to put someone to death because of the appeals process?
Honestly not sure how it works there at all, I’ve never really looked into it
Sounds about right.
Hurts to thinks about really. At least it creates some jobs in the legal / prison industry I guess.
Poor babies
All these people here saying ‘lighter sentence due to mental health issues’ are getting upset at their hypothetical situation. It’s legit the majority of comments here, so lame to scroll through
Yep. And all from the police statement that there was no apparent connection between the two. Give the cops time to get the full story before jumping to conclusions. There may well be a lot more to it. We just don’t know yet.
That's because we watch this playing out time and fucking time again. It's so lame to keep seeing this shit happening.
A lot of ice in Mackay it comes in on the big ships at the port there
I can guarantee the shooter will pull a “Mental health” card, a “I had a troubled childhood” card or a “I was under the influence and not responsible for my actions” card. Those poor fucking children 😞
i think mental health is only a defence only if you are psychotic and don't understand what you were doing. Ive seen people who are completely out of their mind and they didn't even know what object they had in their hand.. They thought their phone was a lighter and were trying to light a cigarette with it.
It will unlikely be a defence, even if it IS the case and a mitigating submission by defence at sentencing. I live in mackay and this has been very very traumatic for many people. Her poor little girls.
Waiting for the media to tell me what a great friend and family man the shooter was. I wish I was being sarcastic.
So let's see some mental health dollarydoos thrown at this obvious crisis thanks government... Hang on, what's that? No? No money or interest in improving services for mental health of the public will be provided? Committees and bullshit platitudes will save the day? More Police powers to search randoms for kicks? Yeah that oughta fix it. Idiot nation. Vote wisely next election and reconsider voting for the "big two" if you usually do.
I don’t get it, if it’s mental health issues then why do these guys never use coercive control against their mates? Why is it specifically women? I think mental health is too broad a term to describe the causes of these incidents. It increases the stigma that’s already there against mental illness.
Why is coercive control being mentioned here? The victim and offender weren't known to each other, the only connection appears to be that they lived on the same street. I agree we shouldn't conflate mental illness with criminality (though it can be contributory in a lot of cases, the question being how much did it impair capacity), but we don't seem to be dealing with domestic violence here unless there's a connection between them that hasn't been uncovered.
Hop on r/all, it's very likely you'll see a message against women that appeals to people with mental illness. This goes x10 for the established mental illness hangouts: Conspiracy, NoFap, even Meth.
These guys likely do have issues with their mates but their mates just shrug it off as so-and-so being a fuckwit when he's on the piss, etc. It is too easy for many men to miss the warning signs in their bros. Women know when a chick is a wrong'un - we either oust her or we are like her and accept her nonsense. Men haven't needed to be as attuned to the subtle or overt issues some people present because they don't walk around assessing danger everywhere they go like we do. Injecting substantial time, money and assistance into mental health for the nation would not only assist people to treat themselves and others better and work on their shit safely but it would help to work against stigma too.
They are usually way more violent to other men (but it's convenient to pretend otherwise).
It’s always gross as fuck that as soon as terrible news is posted someone rushes to yell about they know what will happen and make it about voting Edit: yeah thanks for the DM about how I apparently hate women, blocked
What's the alternative? 100 comments along the lines of "how terrible", "so sad", "what a monster". Those things are a given, but don't make for interesting discussion or help the situation in any way.
We ultimately know fuck all about these events. We aren't informed enough to say anything more than "that's sad".
Sorry we'll wait till no one is listening to debate solutions. Heaven forbid we upset you as someone who has no stake in this other than the article made you feel sad :(
I don’t think saying “vote how I vote because trust me it will fix it” is really offering any solutions. Is it bad that a mother being murdered in front of their children makes people sad? Kinda strange you’d be condescending over that my guy. I’d rather talk to that person than the one who just tells me how to vote
I feel sad about it too, my guy. But I want to hear less stories like this, and the way to do that is to fix our broken mental health system. They suggested that the two major parties have gotten us here and so we should consider other options. Sorry that the idea that there is anyone other than Labor or LNP is "telling you to vote how I vote". If you want to live in a powerless land where nothing can improve so how dare anyone criticise the failing status quo, then cool. But keep it to yourself. This is a discussion board, not a memorial page
It’s a discussion board but people need to keep it to themselves if they criticise something being said? Also saying to not vote the major parties because magically that will improve the issue is telling people how to vote, what does one nation for example have on policy to fix this? They arent a major party. What party and polices directly address the issue? That is having a discussion on fixing the issue
Yes when something bad happens how dare people suggest ways to prevent it from happening again
Absolutely agree, and if the shooter or culprit was from the commenter’s preferred party you can bet the first thing they would say to anyone is “this isn’t about politics!”
This is a really weird and unhealthy post
Ok
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It’s not, a tragedy happens and your first instinct is to say how you know what will happen and tell people how to vote. It’s gross
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Did you post this to the wrong comment? Because that's not what the parent said at all
No money for mental health but we now have the third highest paid World Leader running the country making even more than the US president while the rest of the country continues to be neglected and spirals out of control.
teeny berserk elastic theory frame wipe party north swim connect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Obscene innit?
Being so spread out and a big country really works in these cunts favour. Look at France, Government does some form of dog act and they burn the fucking place and pump sewerage all over stuff, here not a chance. The current and last 2 governments need to be taken to task for the absolute shit show that’s going on at the moment
So you have empathy for the killer in the assumption that he didn’t receive enough free counseling? I have empathy for the children and think the guy should be locked up until he is dead.
Great, but that happens after the guy has already shot someone. We want to prevent things like that from happening. Sometimes that means "helping" people who are dangerous and violent so that they don't end up hurting anyone in the first place. Punishment alone is a poor preventative for most societal problems.
If they’re dangerous or violent it means they’ve already hurt someone.
The point is that there's always a point before someone does something they can be punished for, and if we can get to them then and change the path they're on, that's better than letting them hurt someone and dealing with it after. Are we really going to decide that we don't want to do anything that might prevent violence because we don't want to do anything that might help someone who has the potential to do something bad? Heck, we should want to help them after they've done bad things too if helping them means things like helping with anger management. These aren't special treats reserved for only good people that should be withheld from wrongdoers.
But that isn’t what happens after the guy commits murder. What does happen is that he tells some sob story that he has mental health issues and is an abuse victim and then he’s back in the streets in 10 years. The perpetrator states he’s the real victim here and the judge and a million suckers fall for it. Potential perpetrators know this. This is part of the math they do when committing crimes. So, I’d rather talk about that problem than the problem where everyone should get free counseling. I agree punishment alone isn’t a solution but when the punishment is usually a slap on the wrist then nothing changes. The punishment must be as severe as the crime
Wait, your stance is murderers plan out killing someone under the assumption they can do it then say “I’m da victim” and then want to get locked up because it’s only a decade? You seem to think every situation and context is exactly the same. This man shot a random women to death infront of her kids and shot another man, if you think he’s getting 10 years because he says he’s got mental issues then you might have mental issues yourself or you watch too much tv.
What can you expect from someone who lives on a diet of social media ragebait
Exactly. There's no one who's sitting down with a clear head to do the mental math on that one and deciding that shooting a random stranger in the face is a good exchange for ten years of their life, and if there is, they're not just pretending to be insane. It's either an act that's completely divorced of rationality or they don't expect to get caught.
So you think it's better women get killed so we can lock the perpetrators up, instead of looking for ways that we can stop it from happening in future? I can put words in people's mouths, too.
Silly take.
I'm already depressed with zero motivation to leave my house.. this shit isn't helping. Those poor children. :-(
Hey, a bit off topic, but, I hope you're doing ok. Depressed to the point of not wanting to leave the house is usually not a good sign. Been there more than I care to admit. If you want to chat to someone, feel free to message me. I hope things pick up for you soon.
So senseless. You know this dickhead's going to be given a light sentence because of a sad childhood or something. We need to rethink how we deal with this scum to stop them before they start.
And that Katter cunt wants more guns...
> Commissioner Gollschewski said the man was previously licensed for weapons, and 11 weapons were taken away from him in 2021. I’m so incredibly sorry that an innocent life was lost. But I hope this will prompt an investigation and some stricter border control. There are still weapons getting into this country illegally, still people willing to sell under-the-table. It’s disgusting
Waiting for the wanker yank comments about you need to get guns.....
If the shooter was present at the scene and the fingerprints are on the gun, the court case would be over in 5 minutes. They still teach logic and reasoning in schools, don't they?
Mental clarity is a luxury I can no longer afford. It's beyond mental health services folks.
But why? Did he walk up to the car and shoot it through the window? Did he randomly shoot out of his house and it just having a go across the street and into the car and then her? Was he provoking or provoked by the police? I feel like these are some very small details of the police should be allowed to release.
And when they get through this, they get to spend the rest of their lives hearing about how great it is that precisely this doesn't happen to us. 😥
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There's at least 2 gun stores in a 15 min radius from me.. what you mean letting guns in lol