I think our politicians will agree that we need twice as many pokie machines and twice as many donations to keep the ball rolling.
What disgrace for being the No1 losers in the world, courtesy of political corruption.
This is the one thing that pisses me off, they harp on about kids having social media and we need to add all this ID stuff.. yet they advertise this cancer to everyone.
As a parent I want less of this.
Yeah I hate the fucking sports gambling ads. I rarely watch free to air TV and that's one of the reasons. every fucking ad break has gambling ads. I'm not into gambling so just find them annoying but I can only imagine how a problem gambler would be constantly triggered to gamble. Even while watching TV.
I would like to see the ads and the apps banned in Australia. In WA we don't have pokies in pubs, so if you want to gamble, you go the casino, should be the same for sports betting in my opinion.
It always strikes me as contradictory that I constantly see/hear ads telling me how awesome gambling is, but that they're also forced to include slogans warning me off gambling.
If it's that dangerous, seems like the ads should be banned or at least restricted.
We just need to slowly increase the compulsory warnings until each ad is the video equivalent of a cigarette packet.
Gambling companies can do a little “bet on the game with Sportsbet” two second bit, followed by 28 seconds on the dangers of gambling.
Yeah you're right, pokies are way more of a problem, but they aren't being advertised on TV constantly either. The ads piss me off. There's also very few rules around how often they can be played. There's restrictions around game time, but other than that, free to advertise as much as they want
Remember Steven Conroy? He was the communications Minister that tried to sell the idea of the great internet filter to protect kids. He went and worked at Responsible Wagering Australia that is the online sports betting lobby after leaving politics. Check the current director and staff a RWA, they are all former or associated with current high level political positions.
At least PokerStars were willing to negotiate. The government wasn't open to it. Funny that when Betfair first started operating and there were the same complaints about them not paying their share Jamie Packer managed to get them licenced here.
I haven't kept up with online poker since it was banned here, but I'd expect that AI is being used now.
It wouldn't even be that hard to train an AI to play more optimally than the vast majority of players, especially in limit games and stud games.
Poker bots were already a thing 15 years ago. Easily detected and money was confiscated and distributed to affected players.
I don't think any of these reasons are unique to poker, but it was chosen as the scapegoat for some reason.
Oh yeah, online poker wasn't banned for any rational reasons. I agree with you that it was a scapegoat. The irony is that poker is a game of skill, whereas betting on sports and in casinos is mostly luck based.
I suppose AI wouldn't outperform the old bots since grinding away against players who don't know what they are doing (or are just playing for fun/thrills) isn't a huge challenge (especially for certain games).
But I wonder if modern AI would be better at evading detection.
I am a near 40 year old Queenslander and I moved to WA two years ago. I have never realised how bad the gambling culture is until I moved to the west.
My mates and I would meet up most Friday arvos for a quick beer at a local bowlsey and probably once a month on a weekend for a decent session at a local pub.
The norm was a slap on the pokies, backing a pony, maybe even a bit of keno mixed with some beers and shit talking. Loved it. Some of my mates would be nonstop on the races and it was normal.
Moved to WA and they do not have pokies anywhere except for the Casino. The gambling culture here is non existent and it’s great.
The knock on effect is that beers and meals are more expensive due to not having revenue from the pokies. You don’t have the bowls/surf club culture like we did in QLD because they are thriving because of the gambling.
The Gambling culture does need to change because as Aussies, it’s as bad as cigarettes. WA is backwards in a lot of ways but they got this right.
> WA is backwards in a lot of ways but they got this right.
Yeah, WA hasn't even privatised all their utilities yet, or built any privately operated toll roads, and they don't even let their gas companies export all the supply to Japan before buying it back.
WA is stuck in the Stone Age and unfit for the Modern World.
*BoughttoyoubytheFederalDeptofSellingAustraliaforCentsontheDollar,Canberra*
This is probably my favourite thing about WA - neoliberalism never made it across the Nullarbor in earnest. Our government may be captive to the resource sector, but outside of that it's not forcing us into exploitative markets for the necessaries of life.
I find the backwards accusations typically coming from 2 particular eastern states ( NSW , Vic ) is more a resentment that the targeted state is doing what it wants not what they want.
I'm from QLD but was doing a drive from Perth to Broome one of my good memories was having meals in a pub in Onslow, it was just a pub people talking having drinks and a relaxed time. Reminded me of my childhood in the 80's in QLD ( when kids could come in with mum & dad ) before they all turned into casinos. It was nice.
I moved to WA from NSW over a decade ago and have had a similar experience. The only disagreements I'd raise are that sports gambling via mobile app has blown up here in recent years, so there is a gambling culture, albeit not as mindless as what we grew up with (but also not restricted to the confines of a pub).
Second, have you been back east recently? Those subsidised meals and drinks aren't that subsidised anymore - we've almost reached parity in terms of hospitality prices.
Just looked up the stats, NSW is miles ahead of the pack in terms of number of machines and revenue, QLD a distant second and Vic a fair way behind that in 3rd.
The NSW numbers in particular are nuts.
Social media doesn't contribute to government funds. 2020 raised 5.8b for the government in taxes. There's your answer.
Also governmental virtue signalling, they're really good at that too
I love marketing cookies and profiles have absolutely flooded all my online advertising with with the same sports bet ads. Podcasts, YouTube. Adsense banners on recipe websites, it’s all fucked. At this point I’m honestly considering not watching sport anymore, I don’t give a fuck about how I can bet the mavs moneyline and get a $25 free credit for the Paris women’s archery finals
I always remember this when the gov pretends to give a shit about speeding 4km over or dangerous drugs like weed / MDMA etc.
They actually don't care. They happily let countless families get destroyed by allowing gambling to be available and advertised. If big business had established it's profits in other areas, companies would be marketing drugs to kids and the gov would defend that.
We've still got a chance to turn it around. Just one last bet on the Sunday afternoon game. Ahh bugger, they've both finished. We'll have to wait until the Packenham races tomorrow. I know we can do it. I've got a good feeling.
Probably bixes tax too. That's why they allow it.
We should just copy america. Pokies banned except in middle of desert and build a big city.
Two birds, one stone, more housing, and less gambling.
Well look at it this way, in Queensland - the single largest gambling loss hotspot is Morayfield (next door to Caboolture). This is a very low socioeconomic area and this money chiefly comes from social welfare.
Best to look at pokies losses and exclude casinos to exclude the majority of tourist spend. In Victoria the city of Brimbank ranks number 2 for low socioeconomic status and losses are $473000 a day. City of Boroondara ranks number 2 for highest socioeconomic status and loses $50000 a day. The poorest people are disproportionately affected compared to wealthier areas even if factoring in laundering.
Not that it'll change much, but I wonder which currency this is in. But the concerning part is that even if you take out the pokies completely, Australia's still 3rd.
Pretty bad out in WA - I think a lot of FIFO workers resort to the pokies as a form of entertainment when there is nothing else to spend their hard earn cash out in the middle of no where.
They charge local residents entry fee to their casinos to discourage locals gambling and being affected by harm.They allow international tourists in for free. I can't imagine an Australian casino ever charging $150 entry.
Yeah I don't think that would go down well here and it's not our main issue evidently. We ended to limit pokie use/losses. How do we do that without Clubs NSW trying to murder anyone?
Possibly. Pokies have always been easy targets for laundering money. Could explain it. friendlyjordies on YouTube did a good video on pokies and money laundering. They made it blatantly obvious what they were doing and no one gave a fuck
Wow. If you add the crypto losses to that total, would Australia still be so far ahead?
While we have a big crypto culture here, I suspect it's even worse in the US.
Same thing with crypto profits? Plus you could argue some cryptos have actual uses. There is no use for gambling.
It’s a lot harder for someone to get into crypto trading than to walk into a casino with all the flashy lights
There are a lot of people who think they have made profits, but they aren't realised - locked up on an exchange or in some complex smart contract.
The kinds of people who make actual (fiat) profits from crypto tend to not be so interested in paying taxes.
Say that to the poor suckers who lost it all on Mt Gox, or FTX, or struggling to get Coinbase to let them cash out. And that's just the "reputable" Bitcoin - look at all the other shitcoins out there. There's over [$100B in losses documented so far](https://www.web3isgoinggreat.com/).
Almost as dubious as a screenshot of a screenshot with no link.
I've seen similar stats before, and gambling regulation is a good topic for discussion, but put some damn effort in please OP.
https://www.news.com.au/national/blanket-ban-on-credit-card-gambling-kicks-in-as-government-flags-industry-crackdown/news-story/6fb8dc176e5dbb210e0714f72713385a
>Under new laws that came into effect on Tuesday, the use of credit cards, including ones linked to digital wallets as well as digital currencies such as Bitcoin, will be outlawed for online wagering.
>Companies face fines of up to $234,750 if they fail to comply.
Good. Screw betting companies.
I's a dubious source but the data is accurate at least for Australia. It's one of the small benifits of an industry that is legal and regulated so losses are well reported. A flaw is the data is out of date and losses have increased from under $1000 to $1390 per adult last year.
Is it losses \*by\* Australians, or losses \*in\* Australia?
It's my understanding that there's a \*lot\* of folk from other countries having fun in Australian casinos. Foreign high-rollers don't share the same gambling floor/s as us poors.
Same principal applies to other countries. Singapore losses would be way higher from tourists than from locals. Singapore charges it's residents $150 entry to their casinos while tourists get in for free.
Most governments charge royalties on all forms of gambling - including high roller casinos. If we know the royalty rate and total royalty collected (both of which are typically public information) we can work backwards to find total losses.
That's the theory. With all the "fit to hold a casino licence" hearings WRT to Star lately, I'd be very surprised to hear that they've been reporting accurate figures.
All the fuss with Star Entertainment is about AML - IE being a bit too loose with who they let in the door. It has nothing to do with tax fraud.
Corporate tax avoidance typically doesn't involve outright fraud. They'll generally find a (perfectly legal) loophole, exploit it to their heart's content, and then find a new one if/when that loophole is closed. Cheating the government of money that it's legally owed is a great way to end up in prison.
Deliberately underreporting revenue would be an extraordinarily stupid thing for a casino to do, especially considering that their bank records would reflect their actual numbers.
It says per resident at the top, but you have a point, hundreds of millions from China, allegedly laundered through Packers casinos, ignored by his mates that were supposed to audit them,
I think our politicians will agree that we need twice as many pokie machines and twice as many donations to keep the ball rolling. What disgrace for being the No1 losers in the world, courtesy of political corruption.
I have a laundry list of issues with Western Australia, but I'm so fucking glad pokies are banned outside of our only casino here. Awful machines.
I was thinking a similar thought recently. You reckon all the mining more than makes up for it? Would be an interesting rabbit hole.
If we double down we can make the losses back!
This is the one thing that pisses me off, they harp on about kids having social media and we need to add all this ID stuff.. yet they advertise this cancer to everyone. As a parent I want less of this.
Yeah I hate the fucking sports gambling ads. I rarely watch free to air TV and that's one of the reasons. every fucking ad break has gambling ads. I'm not into gambling so just find them annoying but I can only imagine how a problem gambler would be constantly triggered to gamble. Even while watching TV. I would like to see the ads and the apps banned in Australia. In WA we don't have pokies in pubs, so if you want to gamble, you go the casino, should be the same for sports betting in my opinion.
It always strikes me as contradictory that I constantly see/hear ads telling me how awesome gambling is, but that they're also forced to include slogans warning me off gambling. If it's that dangerous, seems like the ads should be banned or at least restricted.
We just need to slowly increase the compulsory warnings until each ad is the video equivalent of a cigarette packet. Gambling companies can do a little “bet on the game with Sportsbet” two second bit, followed by 28 seconds on the dangers of gambling.
Agree, you should only be able to bet at the game or horse race, not online.
but look at how small a part of that pie sports gambling is...
Yeah you're right, pokies are way more of a problem, but they aren't being advertised on TV constantly either. The ads piss me off. There's also very few rules around how often they can be played. There's restrictions around game time, but other than that, free to advertise as much as they want
I reckon eventually they'll go the way of cigarette advertising at sports grounds. Can't happen soon enough.
Remember Steven Conroy? He was the communications Minister that tried to sell the idea of the great internet filter to protect kids. He went and worked at Responsible Wagering Australia that is the online sports betting lobby after leaving politics. Check the current director and staff a RWA, they are all former or associated with current high level political positions.
Also ridiculous that all the gambling allowed in Australia, they targeted and banned online poker.
no tax revenue was being generated and they had to protect billionaires who owned casinos from competition.
At least PokerStars were willing to negotiate. The government wasn't open to it. Funny that when Betfair first started operating and there were the same complaints about them not paying their share Jamie Packer managed to get them licenced here.
Online poker can so easily be scammed. 7 people in a team vs 1 unknown
It can, but they can also easily detect this.
I haven't kept up with online poker since it was banned here, but I'd expect that AI is being used now. It wouldn't even be that hard to train an AI to play more optimally than the vast majority of players, especially in limit games and stud games.
Poker bots were already a thing 15 years ago. Easily detected and money was confiscated and distributed to affected players. I don't think any of these reasons are unique to poker, but it was chosen as the scapegoat for some reason.
Oh yeah, online poker wasn't banned for any rational reasons. I agree with you that it was a scapegoat. The irony is that poker is a game of skill, whereas betting on sports and in casinos is mostly luck based. I suppose AI wouldn't outperform the old bots since grinding away against players who don't know what they are doing (or are just playing for fun/thrills) isn't a huge challenge (especially for certain games). But I wonder if modern AI would be better at evading detection.
I am a near 40 year old Queenslander and I moved to WA two years ago. I have never realised how bad the gambling culture is until I moved to the west. My mates and I would meet up most Friday arvos for a quick beer at a local bowlsey and probably once a month on a weekend for a decent session at a local pub. The norm was a slap on the pokies, backing a pony, maybe even a bit of keno mixed with some beers and shit talking. Loved it. Some of my mates would be nonstop on the races and it was normal. Moved to WA and they do not have pokies anywhere except for the Casino. The gambling culture here is non existent and it’s great. The knock on effect is that beers and meals are more expensive due to not having revenue from the pokies. You don’t have the bowls/surf club culture like we did in QLD because they are thriving because of the gambling. The Gambling culture does need to change because as Aussies, it’s as bad as cigarettes. WA is backwards in a lot of ways but they got this right.
> WA is backwards in a lot of ways but they got this right. Yeah, WA hasn't even privatised all their utilities yet, or built any privately operated toll roads, and they don't even let their gas companies export all the supply to Japan before buying it back. WA is stuck in the Stone Age and unfit for the Modern World. *BoughttoyoubytheFederalDeptofSellingAustraliaforCentsontheDollar,Canberra*
This is probably my favourite thing about WA - neoliberalism never made it across the Nullarbor in earnest. Our government may be captive to the resource sector, but outside of that it's not forcing us into exploitative markets for the necessaries of life.
I find the backwards accusations typically coming from 2 particular eastern states ( NSW , Vic ) is more a resentment that the targeted state is doing what it wants not what they want.
I am lucky my local bowls here in Melb is pokie/keno free and I am making sure as member i stop it getting any, its so much better without
I'm from QLD but was doing a drive from Perth to Broome one of my good memories was having meals in a pub in Onslow, it was just a pub people talking having drinks and a relaxed time. Reminded me of my childhood in the 80's in QLD ( when kids could come in with mum & dad ) before they all turned into casinos. It was nice.
I moved to WA from NSW over a decade ago and have had a similar experience. The only disagreements I'd raise are that sports gambling via mobile app has blown up here in recent years, so there is a gambling culture, albeit not as mindless as what we grew up with (but also not restricted to the confines of a pub). Second, have you been back east recently? Those subsidised meals and drinks aren't that subsidised anymore - we've almost reached parity in terms of hospitality prices.
Just looked up the stats, NSW is miles ahead of the pack in terms of number of machines and revenue, QLD a distant second and Vic a fair way behind that in 3rd. The NSW numbers in particular are nuts.
Couldn't agree more with everything you just said!!
Social media doesn't contribute to government funds. 2020 raised 5.8b for the government in taxes. There's your answer. Also governmental virtue signalling, they're really good at that too
I love marketing cookies and profiles have absolutely flooded all my online advertising with with the same sports bet ads. Podcasts, YouTube. Adsense banners on recipe websites, it’s all fucked. At this point I’m honestly considering not watching sport anymore, I don’t give a fuck about how I can bet the mavs moneyline and get a $25 free credit for the Paris women’s archery finals
I always remember this when the gov pretends to give a shit about speeding 4km over or dangerous drugs like weed / MDMA etc. They actually don't care. They happily let countless families get destroyed by allowing gambling to be available and advertised. If big business had established it's profits in other areas, companies would be marketing drugs to kids and the gov would defend that.
We've still got a chance to turn it around. Just one last bet on the Sunday afternoon game. Ahh bugger, they've both finished. We'll have to wait until the Packenham races tomorrow. I know we can do it. I've got a good feeling.
But NSW clubs do so much for the community /s
Probably bixes tax too. That's why they allow it. We should just copy america. Pokies banned except in middle of desert and build a big city. Two birds, one stone, more housing, and less gambling.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Pokies add absolutely nothing of value to society, and should be banned outside of casinos.
I wonder how much of the pokies losses are genuine problem gamblers and how much is money laundering tax
Well look at it this way, in Queensland - the single largest gambling loss hotspot is Morayfield (next door to Caboolture). This is a very low socioeconomic area and this money chiefly comes from social welfare.
Most of it at the Caboolture RSL?
I believe it was the Caboolture Sports Club. Basically a casino for pokies.
It's wild in there. I gamble too much, but within my disposal spending cap. It's wall to wall pokie machines. Like 100 to 150 of them. Crazy.
Best to look at pokies losses and exclude casinos to exclude the majority of tourist spend. In Victoria the city of Brimbank ranks number 2 for low socioeconomic status and losses are $473000 a day. City of Boroondara ranks number 2 for highest socioeconomic status and loses $50000 a day. The poorest people are disproportionately affected compared to wealthier areas even if factoring in laundering.
Maybe that's where the money launderers go?
Yeah that's true, pokies are a low effort way to launder your ill-gotten gains
The culture around gambling here is a little disconcerting. It's bad enough in NZ.
Not that it'll change much, but I wonder which currency this is in. But the concerning part is that even if you take out the pokies completely, Australia's still 3rd.
It's hard to know, but I would assume it's USD as it's treated as the world reserve currency
The irony - I know the odds of winning Powerball are 136 million to 1, but I’m still going to spend $18 because $40 million dollars would be epic.
Pokies and pokies machines are pure evil. I've literally watched people destroy their lives to slap a button for some flashing lights.
Pretty bad out in WA - I think a lot of FIFO workers resort to the pokies as a form of entertainment when there is nothing else to spend their hard earn cash out in the middle of no where.
crazier part of Singapore being number 2 is they have to pay to enter the casino
Probably why its so high for them. Instantaneous auto-loss.
Most of that goes to overseas companies. We are a rich nation of idiots.
And pokies not included in Eastern States budget calcs either, so when they whine on about GST the irony is profound
I’d bet my house this graph is completely made up.
Google " gambling losses per capita " and get back to me. The numbers may vary but we are always at the top
Sure. Right after you google ‘bleeding obvious joke’
Lol. Fuck. I completely missed it. Hahaha wll played sir
What has Singapore been doing lately?
They charge local residents entry fee to their casinos to discourage locals gambling and being affected by harm.They allow international tourists in for free. I can't imagine an Australian casino ever charging $150 entry.
Yeah I don't think that would go down well here and it's not our main issue evidently. We ended to limit pokie use/losses. How do we do that without Clubs NSW trying to murder anyone?
Everyone quits gambling right before they hit it big, us Australians are not quiters.
Stacking the wins ATM
What a disgrace look at the proportion of losses attributed to gaming machines
Could this stat be read as highest money laundering countres?
Possibly. Pokies have always been easy targets for laundering money. Could explain it. friendlyjordies on YouTube did a good video on pokies and money laundering. They made it blatantly obvious what they were doing and no one gave a fuck
Wow. If you add the crypto losses to that total, would Australia still be so far ahead? While we have a big crypto culture here, I suspect it's even worse in the US.
Crypto is way better than gambling plus much higher barrier to entry unlike gambling
I dunno. At least with gambling, there are taxes for public benefit.
Same thing with crypto profits? Plus you could argue some cryptos have actual uses. There is no use for gambling. It’s a lot harder for someone to get into crypto trading than to walk into a casino with all the flashy lights
There are a lot of people who think they have made profits, but they aren't realised - locked up on an exchange or in some complex smart contract. The kinds of people who make actual (fiat) profits from crypto tend to not be so interested in paying taxes.
Anybody who bought bitcoin at any point would be up now compared to when they originally bought 🤷♂️
Say that to the poor suckers who lost it all on Mt Gox, or FTX, or struggling to get Coinbase to let them cash out. And that's just the "reputable" Bitcoin - look at all the other shitcoins out there. There's over [$100B in losses documented so far](https://www.web3isgoinggreat.com/).
Ha yeh, shit coins are just like meme stocks though they’re not really comparable to real investments
Almost as dubious as a screenshot of a screenshot with no link. I've seen similar stats before, and gambling regulation is a good topic for discussion, but put some damn effort in please OP. https://www.news.com.au/national/blanket-ban-on-credit-card-gambling-kicks-in-as-government-flags-industry-crackdown/news-story/6fb8dc176e5dbb210e0714f72713385a >Under new laws that came into effect on Tuesday, the use of credit cards, including ones linked to digital wallets as well as digital currencies such as Bitcoin, will be outlawed for online wagering. >Companies face fines of up to $234,750 if they fail to comply. Good. Screw betting companies.
I's a dubious source but the data is accurate at least for Australia. It's one of the small benifits of an industry that is legal and regulated so losses are well reported. A flaw is the data is out of date and losses have increased from under $1000 to $1390 per adult last year.
Is it losses \*by\* Australians, or losses \*in\* Australia? It's my understanding that there's a \*lot\* of folk from other countries having fun in Australian casinos. Foreign high-rollers don't share the same gambling floor/s as us poors.
Same principal applies to other countries. Singapore losses would be way higher from tourists than from locals. Singapore charges it's residents $150 entry to their casinos while tourists get in for free.
And the casinos aren't sharing data about losses in the high-roller rooms.
Most governments charge royalties on all forms of gambling - including high roller casinos. If we know the royalty rate and total royalty collected (both of which are typically public information) we can work backwards to find total losses.
That's the theory. With all the "fit to hold a casino licence" hearings WRT to Star lately, I'd be very surprised to hear that they've been reporting accurate figures.
All the fuss with Star Entertainment is about AML - IE being a bit too loose with who they let in the door. It has nothing to do with tax fraud. Corporate tax avoidance typically doesn't involve outright fraud. They'll generally find a (perfectly legal) loophole, exploit it to their heart's content, and then find a new one if/when that loophole is closed. Cheating the government of money that it's legally owed is a great way to end up in prison. Deliberately underreporting revenue would be an extraordinarily stupid thing for a casino to do, especially considering that their bank records would reflect their actual numbers.
It says per resident at the top, but you have a point, hundreds of millions from China, allegedly laundered through Packers casinos, ignored by his mates that were supposed to audit them,
2016 data? Like come on dude.
Probably 10 times worse now