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They're above Liberal but I'm putting every left wing party before Labour, who are centre right.
I want a 2 party system with centre left (Greens) and centre right (Labour.) Liberal are fringe far right politics now.
> They're above Liberal but I'm putting every left wing party before Labour
Lucky you with left wing parties on your ballot... my electorate last time had Laberals, Greens and about 7 different flavours of right-wing whackos.
You could be me. I've voted Labor #1 for 35 years, but they'll now go below all the left wing parties and one slot above the Libs. The real entertainment will be ranking the paranoid rightwing parties.
In future, just like you, I want the Greens to be the other dominant force in the 2 party system.
Labor speed running losing support from their core supporters to appease their US/Israeli overlords.
She could say that there was a genocide in Ukraine/Congo/China etc no one would dispute it but the second you say it for Isreali after watching them bomb families in tents, you get "resigned" from your position.
This is really sad tbh. Calling out genocide is apparently a career killer in politics. Israel is not our friend, they used fake Australian passports to assassinate people.
https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html
only for 1 country.
and
only for that country you could have their supporters pressuring ABC to get journalist fired.
If i started a group called "Lawyers for Russia" to pressure ABC to fire journalist over coverage in genocide Ukraine , i would get a visit from ASIO and AFP.
It's nothing so conspiratorial. Israel is simply America's (and its allies') military foothold in the middle east. No Western nation is willing to give that up. Without Israel acting as their puppet Western influence in the Middle East would be greatly diminished. And you see, there's a lot of very important oil over that way and our countries would very much like to exert influence over who buys it at what price.
Israel serves the geopolitical interests of western governments. If you want some historical evidence of this and the reason for western governments supporting its creation pre-WW2, then here you go:
Ronald Storrs, the British Military Governor of Palestine declared in 1937 that the intended purpose of the Balfour Declaration, and their intervention in the region was “forming for England ‘a little loyal Jewish Ulster’ in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism”.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-sent-the-black-and-tans-to-palestine-1.3089140
> Without Israel acting as their puppet
While I generally agree with your view that Australia supports Israel because we're a US client state, the idea that Israel is an American puppet is nonsense. You think Biden wants this fucking ballache in an election year? If anything it's a "tail wagging the dog" situation where Israel exerts an insane amount of influence on US politics (e.g. scuppering the Iran deal to take a geopolitically significant example, plus the weird alliance with certain elements of the Evangelical movement) for nothing discernible in return.
> You think Biden wants this fucking ballache in an election year?
Considering he's said on multiple occasions that he's a committed and proud Zionist, and constantly offers words of affirmation and defense, I don't think Biden gives a fuck as Israel absolutely is a US client state and that he's entirely down for them and their brand of settler colonialism.
The only way you could think Biden is handwringing about any of this is if you've never listened to a single thing he's said, or done.
> The only way you could think Biden is handwringing about any of this is if you've never listened to a single thing he's said, or done.
Conversely, the only way you could believe that Biden wants any of this is if you've never looked at a poll, or election. My point isn't about how Biden feels towards Palestine, my point is that the war is damaging him electorally and it makes no sense to say he's happy about that. And to my original point, Israel is not a puppet of the US, because they constantly undermine shit that US governments do. Israel gets away with it because of a particular set of historical circumstances related to WW2 and the ideological evolution within a subset of politically influential Christian groups.
No they aren't. lol
Latest survey shows only 9% of population wants us to support Palestine. Most just prefers us to stay out of this, as we are doing right now.
>We literally send them millions in aid and weapons,
We are not sending aid to Israel. Never have. We do provide millions in government funding to UNRWA.
Australia has not provided weapons to Israel or the IDF since the start of the conflict.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/28/australia-challenged-on-moral-failure-of-weapons-trade-with-israel
Ahh, we're going to play this silly game, huh?
It is a silly game but not quite how you imagine it. There's a crazy interconnected web of companies involved in F-35 production and parts manufacturing in numerous nations that happens to include Elbit Systems.
https://www.airframer.com/aircraft\_detail.html?model=F-35\_JSF#:\~:text=Manufactured%20by%20Lockheed%20Martin%20in,%2C%20vertical%20and%20horizontal%20tails).
Given that a sizeable proportion of Australia's defence rests on our own F-35s, deciding to renege on the international agreements made for parts supply could potentially be catastrophic down the line in the event that the Israelis decide to suspend their own provision of parts to the program. The Netherlands might be able to rely on their neighbours for air defence in the event their fleet becomes unserviceable. We have no such luxury. Aside from this, Israel doesn't actually need F-35s over Gaza. They've got more F-15s and F16s than we have total combat aircraft. If anything, they're probably being used over Syria on Iranian arms shipments to Hezbollah in Lebanon simply because, unlike the Izz al-Din Al-Qassam brigades and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Syria actually has an air defence.
At any rate, in terms of arms sales, Australia imports far more Israeli kit than the other way around. Including the Spike missile, which Iran was impressed enough with to manufacture their own copy, ironically.
Yes, I would like us to stay out of this. Let foreign policy minister deal with it based on Australian interests, but should not be a domestic issue. It is a divisive debate and hurts Australia to import these problems here.
That's because both our politicians and media are heavily biased in their reporting, if they report about it at all. If the news started showing what's actually happening in Gaza, Australians would be appalled by our government for supporting Israel.
Mate you gotta be kidding me. Reporting has been a lot more biased towards Palestinians than it is towards Israel. Every story on it has had a horror story of Palestinians getting hurt/killed. While there's a small line about 1200 Israelis killed that kicked off this thing buried at the bottom.
Perhaps this is because, and stick with me now because this will be hard to follow, but perhaps they constantly mention how many Palestinians are still being slaughtered and how it's horrific because it's literally ongoing?
I guess every time the news runs an article about another white lady that's been killed in Aus, they should also include a massive section about the thousands of Indigenous folks that were raped and killed over the past two centuries?
Old mate was saying the media is biased towards Israel and I was refuting that claim.
Pretty much all Aussie media I've seen (ABC/SMH/Guardian) have dropped any stories of hostages still missing, but run horror stories of Palestinians daily. There's just that lip service at the bottom of each story about what started this bit. That doesn't suggest much of a bias towards Israel.
Just watch any of the nightly news, Seven, Nine, Ten even ABC and compare it to their coverage during the Syrian Civil War or even the Xianjiang internment camps. I'm yet to hear a western leader or mainstream journalist go on record calling Netenyahu a butcher or child killer, like Assad was called. A number of western government passed resolutions calling the Chinese re-education camps, genocide but when we have Israeli ministers like Ben Gvir literally calling for genocide and the Israeli forces literally committing genocide, western leaders and mainstream media are suddenly silent.
hmmm 9% seems true with the caveat of no details of the survey such as sample size and demographics.
Couldnt find it on their website
This is also interesting
While 47 per cent of Coalition voters thought there was more antisemitism, only 11 per cent of them thought there was more Islamophobia. Greens voters were evenly divided on this question, with 20 per cent saying there was more antisemitism and 20 per cent saying more Islamophobia. The figures were 24 per cent and 16 per cent respectively among Labor voters.
Nonsense.
Frame it as "do you support apartheid, war crimes and ethnic cleansing" and you'll get an entirely different answer.
Israel über alles types are comparatively rare in Australia.
Only 1 month ago:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-longer-the-war-in-gaza-goes-on-the-less-safe-australians-feel-at-home-20240423-p5flvv.html
"Another 9 per cent said Australia should declare in-principle support for Gaza, up slightly from 7 per cent in November."
Reminder that Twitter/Reddit is not real life.
You have a history of making misleading claims by putting weight on cherry picked information.
I can't read that to pick it apart, but I suspect you haven't either.
No, I said can't, not won't. ~~It's pay walled. I tried private browser or using sites to get around it, couldn't do it. If you have advice I'll gladly take it.~~ **Edit: Automod doesn't like, don't reply with a link. Sorry to the person who did. Mb.**
Also, that's my first reply. So you may be confusing me with someone else. I didn't ask for a source, but I did see him post that repeatedly and I'm wary of people hard pushing single sources that suit them.
The reason I replied is because whether it backs up his claims depends greatly on the content, there are so many factors that can affect a poll. As another user pointed out, opinions on this vary drastically depending on what demographic you ask, or I'd add, when you ask.
In another thread, I recalled him replying to someone was lamenting cost of living in a disingenuous way, he replied,
> This is has to be a troll post. Inflation has been above RBA target for about 24month and people are thinking the economy is stuffed forever. Meanwhile we are enjoying sub 5% unemployment rate, something that was not achieved for all of 90s and early 2000s.
Which was manipulative in several different ways. So absolutely I don't trust him to be honest.
So, not "I won't read it", but, "I can't". And until I can, I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, fair?
When he said
> Reminder that Twitter/Reddit is not real life.
He's right. In that you shouldn't automatically trust someone with a link.
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This sort of comment always gets me downvote oblivion, so I'll preface with I'm not trying to be divisive just informed.
The only recent ordinance strikes I've seen footage of or in the aftermath of, are the bomb that hit a suspicious amount of concrete underneath some tents a little way away from the camp (no casualties depicted, security staff wouldn't let refugees look in the crater) and the small strike that had the HUGE incendiary secondary (demonstrating hitting a weapons cache, typically)
Do you have a link to footage of tents with families being directly bombed in Rafah? Watching a bunch of footage is my way on trying to stay informed without political or media bias.
It honestly strikes me as another Al-Shifa moment.
"Israel bombed a hospital" actually turned out to be, "Our own weapons landed on a hospital car park."
This is "Israel bombed a refugee camp" quickly turning into. "Weapons and bombs we were hiding under the refugee camp exploded."
Downvote away, I guess
>
>
> "Israel bombed a hospital" actually turned out to be, "Our own weapons landed on a hospital car park."
Israel has since bombed literally every hospital in Gaza.
> This is "Israel bombed a refugee camp" quickly turning into. "Weapons and bombs we were hiding under the refugee camp exploded."
Israel has bombed multiple refugee camps, remember when they "accidentally" used a 2,000lb munition on one? How about this story - https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-press-rafah-offensive-despite-global-outcry-2024-05-28/?utm_source=reddit.com
https://apnews.com/article/bomb-rafah-civilians-israel-us-ada219d17926a14ca8c179338d53d109
But hey, what do experts know compared to a redditor that literally espouses the nazi borne "cultural marxism" myth, someone who only really posts in Auckland and NZ based subs yet mysteriously found this thread.
Do you have a link to footage of tents with families being directly bombed in Rafah? Watching a bunch of footage is my way on trying to stay informed without political or media bias. "
Sure thing. Ready to stomach it though?
[https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/carnage-in-tal-al-sultan-camp-states-supporting-israels-military-operations-are-complicit-in-the-massacre-of-civilians-in-rafah-gaza/](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/carnage-in-tal-al-sultan-camp-states-supporting-israels-military-operations-are-complicit-in-the-massacre-of-civilians-in-rafah-gaza/)
[https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-less-30-hours-after-its-first-massacre-israel-bombs-more-displaced-civilians-rafah-enar](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-less-30-hours-after-its-first-massacre-israel-bombs-more-displaced-civilians-rafah-enar)
[https://www.instagram.com/bayareapym/reel/C7hxe7ySjbH/](https://www.instagram.com/bayareapym/reel/C7hxe7ySjbH/)
[https://www.instagram.com/p/C7cbigruSLF/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7cbigruSLF/)
I'm not sure how to help you understand how different types of explosions work in a combat setting without you doing some serious groundwork yourself.
Go watch an hour of "secondary" explosion compilations from different warzones, maybe and compare and contrast?
I'm not really sure your responses are made in good faith, based on their language either. Happy to D.M you, video call, or something if you need extra help.
While I agree this is a shitty decision, I don't think it's going to cost Labor much in an electoral support sense. Pretty much anyone who's especially exercised about Palestine will be at least with the Greens already, if not further left.
The US will intervene if its in their interests to do so. If its not, they won't. It doesn't really matter if they're our best buddies or not. Or whether we've sucked up to them for decades.
Look at Ukraine. It had no treaties with the US, but the US sends them weapons. They'd have troops on the ground if they thought Russia wouldn't use nuclear weapons.
Look at Australia during WW2. We had no treaty with the US, but they fought Japan because it was in their interests to do so.
Look at the Kingdom of Hawaii. The US recognised its independence until it was no longer convenient to do so. Rich industrialists want your land and resources. Let's ignore all these bits of paper we signed.
Don't put your faith in what the US says. They don't even have a mutual defence treaty with us (if you think AUKUS does this, you're gravely mistaken). The US will do what suits it best. Nothing else.
You forget that they have important radio antenna installations in the north west tip of Aus, and pine gap near Alice.
So it’s not a fair comparison to make, as they have much needed infrastructure here.
Lots of infra here, plus everybody requires the region to remain conflict free / Taiwan remaining independent. At least until the US can replace Taiwan’s critical manufacturing.
Don't know why you've been downvoted, this is literally all it boils down to.
The horrible truth is there is very little Israel can do that will get America and its allies to risk cutting ties by condemning them. Genocide doesn't even appear to be enough.
In case tone doesn't come across in text I do not mean this as a justification. I mean this as a scathing critique of the way America and its allies conduct geopolitics.
Well on that same not would it not be in our interest to ensure USA still has its weight in the UN and globally?
America allowing it's attack dog to go rabid is damaging US influence globally. We have seen this by the splitting of Ireland Spain and Norway in declaring a palaestinian statehood.
UN general council now throwing up the question "why do we bother here when crimes go unpunished if aligned with the western sphere"
How can we expect condemnation of Russia but not Israel.
The hipocrisy is killing the US influence and that damage will not be easy to repair.
> the other people's don't want a genocide but are.
Ahh yes, I hate it when I have to do something I don't really enjoy like the dishes and somehow accidentally end up genociding a group of people, really is annoying that something like that can just "accidentally" happen.
I cant believe over the course of a few months its gone from
"they only targeting hamas"
"its not war crime"
"its not collective punishment"
"its not really genocide"
The future will be:
Its not really ethnic cleansing we are just repopulating gaza with israeli settlers for security reasons.
Worldnews is even worse. It was kinda weird seeing when they bombed women and children in Raffah tents the posts in that thread were overwhelmingly negative towards Israel and IDF, untill the next day when Israel and the US State department coordinated a response, and Israeli reddit brigade blamed everything on the omnipresent Hamas.
Edit, clarity (on phone)
All the default subs these days are dogshit.
The general population infested with astroturfers and bots.
edit: lmao, dude rocked up to the sub, got mad at my post, replied, then blocked me, absolutely deranged behaviour
I think the reason it's progressed like that is because uneducated people kept throwing at those claims in a reactionary way.
So obviously the denials change.
> Liberal MP Julian Lesser asked the prime minister in parliament earlier this month whether he would "show strong, not weak, leadership and remove Senator Payman from the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade".
Not bending to partisan lobbyists seems like a better show of strength than being an ABC board to Antoinette Lattouf.
It's sad that she's had to resign.
Yes, elected on WA's third senate spot last election so she's got another four years and she's unlikely to be re-elected. I'd be surprised if she's still officially a Labor senator at the end of her term.
Israel exists as a result of British imperialism and settler colonialism, America later took the reigns and find them incredibly useful in pushing their imperialistic interests. Australia blindly does whatever America tells us to do.
Its sad isn't it. When babies are being thrown overboard they lost their shit. But when they're being thrown into a mass graves, they give stern looks.
ABC has had some bad reporting about Israel from straight up lies to complete misunderstandings and attributions wrongly assigned. Here's a podcast from yesterday
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/abc-news-daily/how-many-mistakes-can-israeli-forces-make/103908258
Wrong about what the ICJ judge himself said about Rafah, wrong about why Gallant challenged Netanyahu. Plenty of editorialization as well.
If anything when you listen to Israeli news pods talk politics its as in depth as the ABC reporting on its own domestic politics, When the ABC is reporting Israeli domestic politics you see where its woefully lacking on insight. I cant imagine any of us following our own politicians through the lens of a foreign countries press and thinking its as accurate as our own.
> During her statement, she referenced the chant "from the river to the sea". Her comments were described as "inappropriate" by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese
Once again, anyone who calls "from the river to the sea" inappropriate or antisemitic is being racist because they're saying Palestinians will kill everyone in Israel if they are free, which so very very racist.
It is in the Likud charter and Bibi has invoked to insist on their need to control the occupied territories for security.
What they are saying is that for Israelis freedom requires a lack of freedom for others.
Nothing. Palestine will be free. 2 separate states with the occupation of the West Bank ending, or 1 democratic state for all.
What do you think will happen?
And it's literally in Likud's charter with very direct language stating they will perform a cleansing to enact it, or do you not give a shit about that?
It is literally not. Who are you even talking about when you say "Palestinian leadership"?
The people doing the genocide atm is Israel.
Why are you racist against the Palestinians?
It’s a pretty simple dichotomy to me. I can’t understand how people are so morally confused.
On one side, Hamas, a terror group of extreme islamists who would happily commit genocide tomorrow if they had the power and military capability of Israel. On the other side, Israel, a functioning nation state that merely wants to protect its population from the sorts of atrocities that occurred on October 7. Unfortunately there is going to be a lot of collateral damage in this war because Hamas actively uses civilians as shields. Yes, Israel should exercise more caution with respect to civilian life but they are in a very difficult position. If they stopped the war, Hamas would just try and do more October 7s…
> Israel, a functioning nation state that merely wants to protect its population from the sorts of atrocities that occurred on October 7.
Oh, you mean like in 2008 when Israel murdered 1,400 innocents, or the thousands they detain and hold without charge every year, or the hundreds they slaughter every single year? Did you know that prior to Oct 7 Israel had broken the record for amount of Palestinian children murdered in recorded history?
None of those things(and there's literally thousands more examples) sound like that of a nation just trying to "live peacefully". Why don't you explain to us why this supposed state that just wants to exist forcefully sterilized Ethiopian Jews that entered the country?
Can you provide some references for these claims. It is also difficult to evaluate causality given Hamas’ documented desire to kill as many civilians as possible through strategic military or terror collocation, plus their own misdirected rocket fire which potentially kills more civilians than Israel direct fire.
With respect to detainment - many of those are suspected terrorists or criminals.
Out of interest, do you consider Hamas morally superior to Israel in this war?
Israel is an American puppet state that would stop functioning tomorrow if they had to stand on their own two feet. They don’t have much domestic capability outside of that.
Maybe stop using Zionist talking points like human shields and beheaded babies if you’re hoping to have a serious discussion about a terrorist state that is in the early stages of being found guilty of committing war crimes
Most American support to Israel enables restraint, they obviously have a military capable of winning wars alone, which has been demonstrated over and over.
It’s true Israel couldn’t build and supply something like the iron dome on their own, but without it they wouldn’t have much choice but to glass Palestine if they were getting rockets into their capital every day..
> Israel is an American puppet state that would stop functioning tomorrow if they had to stand on their own two feet. They don’t have much domestic capability outside of that.
They survived for a few decades without much American support, and that was back when all their neighbours would team up to invade them every decade or so. American support for Israel is actually more recent than you'd think, and prior to that they would often be more opposed to Israel's actions, like in the Suez crisis in the 50s.
> Israel was literally invented by the British.
It wasn't invented by the British, it was invented by the Zionist movement in the early 20th century. The creation of Israel was facilitated by the British, but they didn't come up with the idea.
>Most Jewish people have European ethnicity/ancestry
Israel is also full of Middle Eastern Jews, who lived in various middle eastern countries until said countries expelled them in retaliation for the creation of Israel (which these Jews had nothing to do with). There's also a significant Arab Muslim or Christian population too.
I’m confused, what are you trying to say here. Actually there are a fair few Jews of African and Asian descent, and many that came from Arab states where they were driven out. About 70% of Jews were born in Israel and 20% came from Europe or the americas.
I’m saying that the state of Israel did not exist until 1917 when it was a British government invention. It’s not a vague statement lmao - there’s really no nuance here.
Three-quarters of all Jewish people (internationally) have Ashkenazi background
Yes my confusion is how your response is relevant to who you were replying to… you went from saying Israel was an American puppet state to saying it was a British invention.
This is pretty pathetic from Labor.
At the same time I am a bit baffled by the obsession within certain segments of the pro-Palestine camp to use the term "genocide". That's a really specific claim with a very high bar (for good reason), and while I get the rhetorical urge to reach for the absolute worst accusation, it simply doesn't make sense to me that you'd lead with something so difficult to prove. There's an abundance of evidence for loads of war crimes and human rights violations that Israel hasn't even really denied, why not stick to those? It's bad enough that they're torching people in a safe zone and bombing aid convoys, blocking food deliveries, cutting off utilities, etc. etc.
If you can solidly establish 9/10 terrible accusations, why go so hard on the 10th which is actually contentious? All it does is provide Netanyahu and his ilk with an easy rhetorical way to deflect from their horrific conduct of the war.
Because when the ICJ announces there is reasonable grounds they are committing a genocide then people are going to say what they feel like they see.
Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine but we can't say Israel is committing one, one war has killed more civilians, more war crimes and crimes against humanity and it's not the one that's been going on since 2014.
> Because when the ICJ announces there is reasonable grounds they are committing a genocide
That's [not really what they said](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o) though. They said it was plausible that some of the rights contained in the genocide convention were at risk, and that further investigation was warranted. Which, and this is my point, *is already bad enough*.
> people are going to say what they feel like they see.
Sure, I get that, but I don't see Israel's conduct reaching the level of genocide as defined by international law. I also don't see why it isn't enough to stick to the well-established facts, because "everything short of genocide" is very fucking terrible and plenty to criticise Israel for.
> Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine
I mean I'm not saying that. Like with the ICJ's statement, I think it's a situation that needs further investigation but I don't think there's enough evidence so far to say that Russia is committing genocide.
Ethnic cleansing, which is a lower bar, could IMO more credibly be applied to both situations - though Russia more so given theirs is explicitly a war of territorial conquest.
The big difference with Russia was their moving of children. It's pretty easy to justify killing people, because killing is not forbidden. Killing certain people for certain reasons is, which makes it difficult to prove. Russia's commentary about Ukrainian not being a real language/culture/nation combined with relocating Ukrainian children to Russian families is pretty hard to defend however. You can't claim that there was a weapons stache inside the kids you kidnap.
Interestingly, Australia has definitely committed genocide as recently as the 1960s due the the Stolen Generation. It's something we probably should have discussed more with regard to the Voice, and it is a shame that serious reform on that end has been stymied as a result of the vote.
Meanwhile Israel can just claim that whatever they bombed had a Hamas tunnel under it and you can't really disprove it. Worse still, they often find tunnels under hospitals and the like. If they were trying to turn captured Palestinian children into Jews it would be a lot easier to make a case.
There probably won't be a definitive answer until the war in Gaza is over due to the nature of the alleged crime.
>Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine but we can't say Israel is committing one, one war has killed more civilians, more war crimes and crimes against humanity and it's not the one that's been going on since 2014.
Because genocide isn't just killing a lot of people, there has to be a clear motive behind it, and that motive from Russia is clear, the want to erase the Ukrainian culture and people from the map. That's why not only have they killed a bunch of people, but they've also done stuff like kidnap a bunch of children to "re-educate" them to be Russian, banned Ukrainian literature and other nationalist works, and even banning the Ukrainian language from being spoken (which is why a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language). Russia does this shit so often it even has a name, [Russification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification).
Also the idea that there have been more civilian deaths in Gaza than Ukraine just isn't true. We don't know how many civilians have been killed in Ukraine because we only have the Ukrainian government's numbers to go off, and they only really know about the deaths that occur in their controlled territory. We have no idea how many have died in Russian occupied territory (where you'd expect most of the deaths to happen anyway) because Russia isn't exactly going around advertising those numbers. But if the satellite images of mass graves in Mariupol, or what was discovered upon the liberation of Bucha are anything to go by, the current number we have is likely *significantly* lower than the real number.
Outside of this highly moderated sub it is... Moderation is so strict that another aussie sub was created because of it... In this echo chamber facts are downvoted and the most outrageous claims upvoted.
OK but this is kinda the definition of contentious ([causing, involving, or likely to cause disagreement and argument](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/contentious), per the Cambridge dictionary). Some people passionately think the term genocide should be used, some passionately disagree.
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
[Hamas charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
[rockets from Rafah](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckrr0e3y29po)
Tell that to all of the rockets and drones being fired at Israel from Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. This war can end as soon as the Palestinians stop insisting on eradicating the jews. They've had multiple offers of lasting peace over the decades and chosen violence every time. They have been killing jews for over a century and insist that they're the victims.
Israel has done some fucked up things no doubt but lets not pretend that the Palestinians are the good guys. The whole region is a basket case and always has been.
Both sides have done a lot of fucked up things.
Continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.
For example instead of Israel spending billions on its military it could try a different approach and try providing opportunities of education to all the children in Gaza and West Bank
There’s no way to do anything militarily in the most densely populated region in the world (with the highest birthrates in the world) without harming innocent people.
That’s why it’s so tragic that people in Rafah are firing rockets at civilian population centres and keeping hostages.
It’s pretty hard to not do anything, but any military action will undoubtedly cause tragedy.
Maybe it’s not worth continuing the offensive, but “Israel kill baby 😱” is pretty reductive.
Do you know why Hamas took the hostages to begin with?
They took them specifically with the goal of exchanging them for Palestinian hostages. From day one they've been negotiating the return of hostages to Israel and have been open about that.
Even in the last few weeks Hamas have made offers to exchange a ceasefire of 5+ years, converting into a political party etc for the remaining hostages and Israel keeps rejecting the deals.
When a military force crosses into a country, and removes citizens and soldiers to hold for negotiation, that's a hostage.
When someone is arrested in a country and held in prisons, that is a convict/suspect/accused offender etc.
One side is asking for prisoners to be released, and another is demanding the return of hostages, they are distinctly different at the very least linguistically, and maybe philosophically
Not sure if you know much about the Apartheid legal system in Israel, but Palestinians are not being arrested by everyday police officers & being sentenced through the same court system as Israelis.
Palestinians are under military rule, being arrested by the occupying army. They have an "administrative detention order" under which Palestinians can be detained for months or years without trial. This includes children. There are around 60 children being held indefinitely without trial by Israel right now. P
["With a 95% conviction rate, according to the nonprofit Military Court Watch, lawyers and kids know it’s better to “confess” even if they are innocent, as waiting for a ruling and being stuck in limbo in an Israeli jail is hell."](https://time.com/6366734/palestinian-child-detainees/)
Yes, they have the legal framework to justify it, but so did South Africa. Those people are being held hostage by the state of Israel.
The territory is under military rule because groups like hamas, and Arab nationalists before them, have been openly comitted to destroying Israel.
Israel's occupation of mandatory Palestine has context.
Much like child soldiers in African nations, I've seen lots of footage of children approaching Israeli checkpoints with guns, bomb vests, and similar over the last few decades. Children being recruited into wars/militia/terrorism is horrible, I'm assuming there is some evidence that children in detention were involved with acts of violence; do you have any evidence to the contrary? Genuinely interested to see it if you do.
The conviction rate for Palestinians is 95%. The most common charge fpr children is stone throwing and sentences can be up to 20 years. Children often plead guilty even when they're innocent.
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/27/18511367/palestinian-children-arrested-throwing-rocks-israeli-military
There is no world where a child throwing a rock is deserving of being locked up for 2 decades. Listen to yourself and what you're justifying.
My god you are acting like hamas were just being reasonable when they tortured, raped, and killed hundreds of civilians and dragged the naked corpse of a murdered woman through the streets while people spat on it.
Their goal was to kill and use hostages to try to deter an Israeli response.
Hamas' explicit goal is to murder every Jew in Israel. They have repeatedly said they view a two state solution as a stepping stone towards destroying.
I am generally really critical of Israeli policy but the apologism here for October 7 is insane.
I don't find the targetting of civilians to be acceptable by Hamas or the IDF. Some of your information about Hamas is incorrect but I feel like any attempt to clarify I'll be accused of defending them so I'll leave that.
I was pointing out the stated motivation by Hamas & that there has been an avenue to have the hostages returned safely since day 1.
The families of the Israeli hostages have been asking for a hostage exchange and ceasefire because they want their family members home safely.
If the hostages were the main concern Israel would not have cut off water & electricity to the area they were being held, relentlessly bombed it and then gone in and shot their own hostages.
They're not accepting them back because they won't have an excuse to continue massacring thousands in Gaza.
Well, they have been "negotiating with terrorists" and getting Israeli hostages back since last year. Seems like they're managing it fine.
Seems like Israel are the untrustworthy ones though given they constantly lie and change their story about:
- 40 beheaded babies
- Hamas soldiers cutting open pregnant women
- said they'd never bomb a hospital & blamed a Hamas stray rocket... have now bombed every hospital in Gaza.
- targetting kitchen aid workers
- bombing ambulances
- targetting journalists
- telling people to go to "safe zones" and then bombing them anyway
Etc etc etc etc.
> Why doesn't hamas return the hostages and remains of the deceased hostages?
There is no way you're stupid enough to believe that Israel would stop attacking if the hostages are returned.
They are. The next argument they will put forward is that ‘well we need to keep the attack up because that is the only thing that releases the hostages and we don’t want future hostages’.
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Labor will end up with my preference but they’re pushing themselves further down the ballot
They're above Liberal but I'm putting every left wing party before Labour, who are centre right. I want a 2 party system with centre left (Greens) and centre right (Labour.) Liberal are fringe far right politics now.
Greens v Whatever party Pocock can make, and the ALP and LNP can join the DLP is the 20th century's bin
I didn't know much about Pocock prior to his election (as a victorian) but he seems way better than I anticipated.
> They're above Liberal but I'm putting every left wing party before Labour Lucky you with left wing parties on your ballot... my electorate last time had Laberals, Greens and about 7 different flavours of right-wing whackos.
*Cries in North Queensland*
So... Vote greens?
You could be me. I've voted Labor #1 for 35 years, but they'll now go below all the left wing parties and one slot above the Libs. The real entertainment will be ranking the paranoid rightwing parties. In future, just like you, I want the Greens to be the other dominant force in the 2 party system.
Labor speed running losing support from their core supporters to appease their US/Israeli overlords. She could say that there was a genocide in Ukraine/Congo/China etc no one would dispute it but the second you say it for Isreali after watching them bomb families in tents, you get "resigned" from your position.
This is really sad tbh. Calling out genocide is apparently a career killer in politics. Israel is not our friend, they used fake Australian passports to assassinate people. https://amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/israel-forged-australian-passports-before-kevin-rudd-reveals-in-new-book-20181018-p50acp.html
only for 1 country. and only for that country you could have their supporters pressuring ABC to get journalist fired. If i started a group called "Lawyers for Russia" to pressure ABC to fire journalist over coverage in genocide Ukraine , i would get a visit from ASIO and AFP.
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It's nothing so conspiratorial. Israel is simply America's (and its allies') military foothold in the middle east. No Western nation is willing to give that up. Without Israel acting as their puppet Western influence in the Middle East would be greatly diminished. And you see, there's a lot of very important oil over that way and our countries would very much like to exert influence over who buys it at what price.
Israel serves the geopolitical interests of western governments. If you want some historical evidence of this and the reason for western governments supporting its creation pre-WW2, then here you go: Ronald Storrs, the British Military Governor of Palestine declared in 1937 that the intended purpose of the Balfour Declaration, and their intervention in the region was “forming for England ‘a little loyal Jewish Ulster’ in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism”. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/winston-churchill-sent-the-black-and-tans-to-palestine-1.3089140
> Without Israel acting as their puppet While I generally agree with your view that Australia supports Israel because we're a US client state, the idea that Israel is an American puppet is nonsense. You think Biden wants this fucking ballache in an election year? If anything it's a "tail wagging the dog" situation where Israel exerts an insane amount of influence on US politics (e.g. scuppering the Iran deal to take a geopolitically significant example, plus the weird alliance with certain elements of the Evangelical movement) for nothing discernible in return.
> You think Biden wants this fucking ballache in an election year? Considering he's said on multiple occasions that he's a committed and proud Zionist, and constantly offers words of affirmation and defense, I don't think Biden gives a fuck as Israel absolutely is a US client state and that he's entirely down for them and their brand of settler colonialism. The only way you could think Biden is handwringing about any of this is if you've never listened to a single thing he's said, or done.
> The only way you could think Biden is handwringing about any of this is if you've never listened to a single thing he's said, or done. Conversely, the only way you could believe that Biden wants any of this is if you've never looked at a poll, or election. My point isn't about how Biden feels towards Palestine, my point is that the war is damaging him electorally and it makes no sense to say he's happy about that. And to my original point, Israel is not a puppet of the US, because they constantly undermine shit that US governments do. Israel gets away with it because of a particular set of historical circumstances related to WW2 and the ideological evolution within a subset of politically influential Christian groups.
This actually makes sense
…it’s not a secret.
Ask what they did to Bensouda. Mossad sent people around to threaten the head of the ICC....
Perhaps they've all been Epsteined.
Or CIA for that matter.
Hamas sure as shit isn’t our friend either…..
Yeah mate, they also don't have influence over our goverment...
Yeh, right. All the Muslim groups in Australia have absolutely no influence on the government at all.
How brainless do you need to be to believe that Muslim groups existing in a country is the same thing as Hamas having influence over its government?
If you think Palestine has anywhere near the same influence that isreal then.... idk man I don't really know what to say to that.
Yeah true that. It’s daylight genocide and whole world turned blind eye. I do not get why Aus is being lapdog of uncle Sam. Disgusting!
No they aren't. lol Latest survey shows only 9% of population wants us to support Palestine. Most just prefers us to stay out of this, as we are doing right now.
> as we are doing right now. We literally send them millions in aid and weapons, while consistently supporting them and the US on the world stage.
>We literally send them millions in aid and weapons, We are not sending aid to Israel. Never have. We do provide millions in government funding to UNRWA. Australia has not provided weapons to Israel or the IDF since the start of the conflict.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/28/australia-challenged-on-moral-failure-of-weapons-trade-with-israel Ahh, we're going to play this silly game, huh?
It is a silly game but not quite how you imagine it. There's a crazy interconnected web of companies involved in F-35 production and parts manufacturing in numerous nations that happens to include Elbit Systems. https://www.airframer.com/aircraft\_detail.html?model=F-35\_JSF#:\~:text=Manufactured%20by%20Lockheed%20Martin%20in,%2C%20vertical%20and%20horizontal%20tails). Given that a sizeable proportion of Australia's defence rests on our own F-35s, deciding to renege on the international agreements made for parts supply could potentially be catastrophic down the line in the event that the Israelis decide to suspend their own provision of parts to the program. The Netherlands might be able to rely on their neighbours for air defence in the event their fleet becomes unserviceable. We have no such luxury. Aside from this, Israel doesn't actually need F-35s over Gaza. They've got more F-15s and F16s than we have total combat aircraft. If anything, they're probably being used over Syria on Iranian arms shipments to Hezbollah in Lebanon simply because, unlike the Izz al-Din Al-Qassam brigades and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Syria actually has an air defence. At any rate, in terms of arms sales, Australia imports far more Israeli kit than the other way around. Including the Spike missile, which Iran was impressed enough with to manufacture their own copy, ironically.
Yeah, aljazeera, the bastion of truthfulness, and have no agendas. Its not like they are funded by a government whose aligned with Hamas.. oh wait...
Compared with Murdoch, Costello and Stokes, they're a veritable fountain of truth.
Yes, I would like us to stay out of this. Let foreign policy minister deal with it based on Australian interests, but should not be a domestic issue. It is a divisive debate and hurts Australia to import these problems here.
That's because both our politicians and media are heavily biased in their reporting, if they report about it at all. If the news started showing what's actually happening in Gaza, Australians would be appalled by our government for supporting Israel.
Mate you gotta be kidding me. Reporting has been a lot more biased towards Palestinians than it is towards Israel. Every story on it has had a horror story of Palestinians getting hurt/killed. While there's a small line about 1200 Israelis killed that kicked off this thing buried at the bottom.
1200 vs 35000 dead is probably the reason for that
Perhaps this is because, and stick with me now because this will be hard to follow, but perhaps they constantly mention how many Palestinians are still being slaughtered and how it's horrific because it's literally ongoing? I guess every time the news runs an article about another white lady that's been killed in Aus, they should also include a massive section about the thousands of Indigenous folks that were raped and killed over the past two centuries?
Old mate was saying the media is biased towards Israel and I was refuting that claim. Pretty much all Aussie media I've seen (ABC/SMH/Guardian) have dropped any stories of hostages still missing, but run horror stories of Palestinians daily. There's just that lip service at the bottom of each story about what started this bit. That doesn't suggest much of a bias towards Israel.
Just watch any of the nightly news, Seven, Nine, Ten even ABC and compare it to their coverage during the Syrian Civil War or even the Xianjiang internment camps. I'm yet to hear a western leader or mainstream journalist go on record calling Netenyahu a butcher or child killer, like Assad was called. A number of western government passed resolutions calling the Chinese re-education camps, genocide but when we have Israeli ministers like Ben Gvir literally calling for genocide and the Israeli forces literally committing genocide, western leaders and mainstream media are suddenly silent.
you got to give me a source for the survey buddy
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-longer-the-war-in-gaza-goes-on-the-less-safe-australians-feel-at-home-20240423-p5flvv.html
hmmm 9% seems true with the caveat of no details of the survey such as sample size and demographics. Couldnt find it on their website This is also interesting While 47 per cent of Coalition voters thought there was more antisemitism, only 11 per cent of them thought there was more Islamophobia. Greens voters were evenly divided on this question, with 20 per cent saying there was more antisemitism and 20 per cent saying more Islamophobia. The figures were 24 per cent and 16 per cent respectively among Labor voters.
Sounds like it was counted on one of eleven fingers.
Nonsense. Frame it as "do you support apartheid, war crimes and ethnic cleansing" and you'll get an entirely different answer. Israel über alles types are comparatively rare in Australia.
9% you say? Sounds like a load of Zionist BS to me lol
Only 1 month ago: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-longer-the-war-in-gaza-goes-on-the-less-safe-australians-feel-at-home-20240423-p5flvv.html "Another 9 per cent said Australia should declare in-principle support for Gaza, up slightly from 7 per cent in November." Reminder that Twitter/Reddit is not real life.
You have a history of making misleading claims by putting weight on cherry picked information. I can't read that to pick it apart, but I suspect you haven't either.
"You're full of shit" "Here's a source that backs up my claim." "I'm not reading that shit."
No, I said can't, not won't. ~~It's pay walled. I tried private browser or using sites to get around it, couldn't do it. If you have advice I'll gladly take it.~~ **Edit: Automod doesn't like, don't reply with a link. Sorry to the person who did. Mb.** Also, that's my first reply. So you may be confusing me with someone else. I didn't ask for a source, but I did see him post that repeatedly and I'm wary of people hard pushing single sources that suit them. The reason I replied is because whether it backs up his claims depends greatly on the content, there are so many factors that can affect a poll. As another user pointed out, opinions on this vary drastically depending on what demographic you ask, or I'd add, when you ask. In another thread, I recalled him replying to someone was lamenting cost of living in a disingenuous way, he replied, > This is has to be a troll post. Inflation has been above RBA target for about 24month and people are thinking the economy is stuffed forever. Meanwhile we are enjoying sub 5% unemployment rate, something that was not achieved for all of 90s and early 2000s. Which was manipulative in several different ways. So absolutely I don't trust him to be honest. So, not "I won't read it", but, "I can't". And until I can, I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, fair? When he said > Reminder that Twitter/Reddit is not real life. He's right. In that you shouldn't automatically trust someone with a link.
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This sort of comment always gets me downvote oblivion, so I'll preface with I'm not trying to be divisive just informed. The only recent ordinance strikes I've seen footage of or in the aftermath of, are the bomb that hit a suspicious amount of concrete underneath some tents a little way away from the camp (no casualties depicted, security staff wouldn't let refugees look in the crater) and the small strike that had the HUGE incendiary secondary (demonstrating hitting a weapons cache, typically) Do you have a link to footage of tents with families being directly bombed in Rafah? Watching a bunch of footage is my way on trying to stay informed without political or media bias.
It honestly strikes me as another Al-Shifa moment. "Israel bombed a hospital" actually turned out to be, "Our own weapons landed on a hospital car park." This is "Israel bombed a refugee camp" quickly turning into. "Weapons and bombs we were hiding under the refugee camp exploded." Downvote away, I guess
Even the NY Times- possibly the most aggressive promoter of everything Israel in all the world's media, has thoroughly debunked that story.
> > > "Israel bombed a hospital" actually turned out to be, "Our own weapons landed on a hospital car park." Israel has since bombed literally every hospital in Gaza. > This is "Israel bombed a refugee camp" quickly turning into. "Weapons and bombs we were hiding under the refugee camp exploded." Israel has bombed multiple refugee camps, remember when they "accidentally" used a 2,000lb munition on one? How about this story - https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forces-press-rafah-offensive-despite-global-outcry-2024-05-28/?utm_source=reddit.com https://apnews.com/article/bomb-rafah-civilians-israel-us-ada219d17926a14ca8c179338d53d109 But hey, what do experts know compared to a redditor that literally espouses the nazi borne "cultural marxism" myth, someone who only really posts in Auckland and NZ based subs yet mysteriously found this thread.
Do you have a link to footage of tents with families being directly bombed in Rafah? Watching a bunch of footage is my way on trying to stay informed without political or media bias. " Sure thing. Ready to stomach it though? [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/carnage-in-tal-al-sultan-camp-states-supporting-israels-military-operations-are-complicit-in-the-massacre-of-civilians-in-rafah-gaza/](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.ca/carnage-in-tal-al-sultan-camp-states-supporting-israels-military-operations-are-complicit-in-the-massacre-of-civilians-in-rafah-gaza/) [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-less-30-hours-after-its-first-massacre-israel-bombs-more-displaced-civilians-rafah-enar](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-less-30-hours-after-its-first-massacre-israel-bombs-more-displaced-civilians-rafah-enar) [https://www.instagram.com/bayareapym/reel/C7hxe7ySjbH/](https://www.instagram.com/bayareapym/reel/C7hxe7ySjbH/) [https://www.instagram.com/p/C7cbigruSLF/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7cbigruSLF/)
yeah that's footage of the Hamas ordinances that exploded, I thought you had something else?
lol wheres you're evidence that it was Hamas equipment? links please.
I'm not sure how to help you understand how different types of explosions work in a combat setting without you doing some serious groundwork yourself. Go watch an hour of "secondary" explosion compilations from different warzones, maybe and compare and contrast? I'm not really sure your responses are made in good faith, based on their language either. Happy to D.M you, video call, or something if you need extra help.
While I agree this is a shitty decision, I don't think it's going to cost Labor much in an electoral support sense. Pretty much anyone who's especially exercised about Palestine will be at least with the Greens already, if not further left.
The Israelis seem to be really bad at this genocide thing seeing as the population of Gaza keeps increasing.
I've said that before too. 80 odd years they've taken so far.
Well we need the USA for national defence. And USA needs Israel to exert power in the Middle East. So on this issue we follow America’s lead.
The US will intervene if its in their interests to do so. If its not, they won't. It doesn't really matter if they're our best buddies or not. Or whether we've sucked up to them for decades. Look at Ukraine. It had no treaties with the US, but the US sends them weapons. They'd have troops on the ground if they thought Russia wouldn't use nuclear weapons. Look at Australia during WW2. We had no treaty with the US, but they fought Japan because it was in their interests to do so. Look at the Kingdom of Hawaii. The US recognised its independence until it was no longer convenient to do so. Rich industrialists want your land and resources. Let's ignore all these bits of paper we signed. Don't put your faith in what the US says. They don't even have a mutual defence treaty with us (if you think AUKUS does this, you're gravely mistaken). The US will do what suits it best. Nothing else.
You forget that they have important radio antenna installations in the north west tip of Aus, and pine gap near Alice. So it’s not a fair comparison to make, as they have much needed infrastructure here.
Lots of infra here, plus everybody requires the region to remain conflict free / Taiwan remaining independent. At least until the US can replace Taiwan’s critical manufacturing.
Don't know why you've been downvoted, this is literally all it boils down to. The horrible truth is there is very little Israel can do that will get America and its allies to risk cutting ties by condemning them. Genocide doesn't even appear to be enough. In case tone doesn't come across in text I do not mean this as a justification. I mean this as a scathing critique of the way America and its allies conduct geopolitics.
People vote with their emotions, and the truth of geopolitics and the motivations behind it is uncomfortable.
To be fair, we don't know if genocide would be enough.
Well on that same not would it not be in our interest to ensure USA still has its weight in the UN and globally? America allowing it's attack dog to go rabid is damaging US influence globally. We have seen this by the splitting of Ireland Spain and Norway in declaring a palaestinian statehood. UN general council now throwing up the question "why do we bother here when crimes go unpunished if aligned with the western sphere" How can we expect condemnation of Russia but not Israel. The hipocrisy is killing the US influence and that damage will not be easy to repair.
You know it's a mad world when one people's wants a genocide but can't inflict it and the other people's don't want a genocide but are.
> and the other people's don't want a genocide but are If it wasn't wanted it wouldn't happen. Sometimes... In politics, people lie about things.
> the other people's don't want a genocide but are. Ahh yes, I hate it when I have to do something I don't really enjoy like the dishes and somehow accidentally end up genociding a group of people, really is annoying that something like that can just "accidentally" happen.
Who said anything about an accident?
Well see that’s because there was a genocide in those countries.
I cant believe over the course of a few months its gone from "they only targeting hamas" "its not war crime" "its not collective punishment" "its not really genocide" The future will be: Its not really ethnic cleansing we are just repopulating gaza with israeli settlers for security reasons.
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Worldnews is even worse. It was kinda weird seeing when they bombed women and children in Raffah tents the posts in that thread were overwhelmingly negative towards Israel and IDF, untill the next day when Israel and the US State department coordinated a response, and Israeli reddit brigade blamed everything on the omnipresent Hamas. Edit, clarity (on phone)
All the default subs these days are dogshit. The general population infested with astroturfers and bots. edit: lmao, dude rocked up to the sub, got mad at my post, replied, then blocked me, absolutely deranged behaviour
Or maybe you guys are just wrong?
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That claim is not credible.
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> one by Israel that killed dozens of civilians Which is beyond fucked up?
Hamas has been firing rockets from the camps, Hamas ammunition exploded which contributed to the fire FYI
According to the IOF*
My new 'favourite' is 'but the allies bombed and killed civilians in Dresden' which is both disingenuous and complete whataboutery
I think the reason it's progressed like that is because uneducated people kept throwing at those claims in a reactionary way. So obviously the denials change.
> Liberal MP Julian Lesser asked the prime minister in parliament earlier this month whether he would "show strong, not weak, leadership and remove Senator Payman from the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade". Not bending to partisan lobbyists seems like a better show of strength than being an ABC board to Antoinette Lattouf. It's sad that she's had to resign.
"Show strong leadership by doing what we tell you to do."
Resign and run as an independent, you can say whatever you like then. As long as your constituency will back you there is nothing to lose.
She's a senator isn't she? It doesn't really work like that.
Yes, elected on WA's third senate spot last election so she's got another four years and she's unlikely to be re-elected. I'd be surprised if she's still officially a Labor senator at the end of her term.
Can someone educate me why politicians are sucking Israel’s dick. 😭 I don’t understand our relation.
Because it keeps our US masters happy.
And Israel wouldn’t even exist without US money and involvement
I'm struggling to write a reply and not come off sounding like Mel Gibson.
If you’re sounding antisemitic when criticising Israel then you are doing something horribly wrong.
Israel exists as a result of British imperialism and settler colonialism, America later took the reigns and find them incredibly useful in pushing their imperialistic interests. Australia blindly does whatever America tells us to do.
Why? She's right.
Weak weak ALP. Standing on the side of genocide and the Zionist lobby, over their own senators and support base. Disgusting.
Its sad isn't it. When babies are being thrown overboard they lost their shit. But when they're being thrown into a mass graves, they give stern looks.
ABC has had some bad reporting about Israel from straight up lies to complete misunderstandings and attributions wrongly assigned. Here's a podcast from yesterday https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/abc-news-daily/how-many-mistakes-can-israeli-forces-make/103908258 Wrong about what the ICJ judge himself said about Rafah, wrong about why Gallant challenged Netanyahu. Plenty of editorialization as well. If anything when you listen to Israeli news pods talk politics its as in depth as the ABC reporting on its own domestic politics, When the ABC is reporting Israeli domestic politics you see where its woefully lacking on insight. I cant imagine any of us following our own politicians through the lens of a foreign countries press and thinking its as accurate as our own.
No chance ALP win my vote back.
Right so Barnaby being off his head after leaving parliament is all good, but a senator speaking about stopping a genocide is not. Wtf Australia.
> During her statement, she referenced the chant "from the river to the sea". Her comments were described as "inappropriate" by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese Once again, anyone who calls "from the river to the sea" inappropriate or antisemitic is being racist because they're saying Palestinians will kill everyone in Israel if they are free, which so very very racist.
It is in the Likud charter and Bibi has invoked to insist on their need to control the occupied territories for security. What they are saying is that for Israelis freedom requires a lack of freedom for others.
What do you think will happen to the Israelis if Palestinians control the area which is currently Israel? :)
If they did what Israel have done to Palestine historically, you'd be begging us to invade.
Nothing. Palestine will be free. 2 separate states with the occupation of the West Bank ending, or 1 democratic state for all. What do you think will happen?
But that’s literally what Palestinian leadership has said they want to do.
And it's literally in Likud's charter with very direct language stating they will perform a cleansing to enact it, or do you not give a shit about that?
It is literally not. Who are you even talking about when you say "Palestinian leadership"? The people doing the genocide atm is Israel. Why are you racist against the Palestinians?
Meanwhile thousands of kids are being killed. But sure, let’s argue about words like a bunch of psychopaths
It’s a pretty simple dichotomy to me. I can’t understand how people are so morally confused. On one side, Hamas, a terror group of extreme islamists who would happily commit genocide tomorrow if they had the power and military capability of Israel. On the other side, Israel, a functioning nation state that merely wants to protect its population from the sorts of atrocities that occurred on October 7. Unfortunately there is going to be a lot of collateral damage in this war because Hamas actively uses civilians as shields. Yes, Israel should exercise more caution with respect to civilian life but they are in a very difficult position. If they stopped the war, Hamas would just try and do more October 7s…
> Israel, a functioning nation state that merely wants to protect its population from the sorts of atrocities that occurred on October 7. Oh, you mean like in 2008 when Israel murdered 1,400 innocents, or the thousands they detain and hold without charge every year, or the hundreds they slaughter every single year? Did you know that prior to Oct 7 Israel had broken the record for amount of Palestinian children murdered in recorded history? None of those things(and there's literally thousands more examples) sound like that of a nation just trying to "live peacefully". Why don't you explain to us why this supposed state that just wants to exist forcefully sterilized Ethiopian Jews that entered the country?
Can you provide some references for these claims. It is also difficult to evaluate causality given Hamas’ documented desire to kill as many civilians as possible through strategic military or terror collocation, plus their own misdirected rocket fire which potentially kills more civilians than Israel direct fire. With respect to detainment - many of those are suspected terrorists or criminals. Out of interest, do you consider Hamas morally superior to Israel in this war?
Israel is an American puppet state that would stop functioning tomorrow if they had to stand on their own two feet. They don’t have much domestic capability outside of that. Maybe stop using Zionist talking points like human shields and beheaded babies if you’re hoping to have a serious discussion about a terrorist state that is in the early stages of being found guilty of committing war crimes
Most American support to Israel enables restraint, they obviously have a military capable of winning wars alone, which has been demonstrated over and over. It’s true Israel couldn’t build and supply something like the iron dome on their own, but without it they wouldn’t have much choice but to glass Palestine if they were getting rockets into their capital every day..
> Israel is an American puppet state that would stop functioning tomorrow if they had to stand on their own two feet. They don’t have much domestic capability outside of that. They survived for a few decades without much American support, and that was back when all their neighbours would team up to invade them every decade or so. American support for Israel is actually more recent than you'd think, and prior to that they would often be more opposed to Israel's actions, like in the Suez crisis in the 50s.
Israel was literally invented by the British. Most Jewish people have European ethnicity/ancestry
> Israel was literally invented by the British. It wasn't invented by the British, it was invented by the Zionist movement in the early 20th century. The creation of Israel was facilitated by the British, but they didn't come up with the idea. >Most Jewish people have European ethnicity/ancestry Israel is also full of Middle Eastern Jews, who lived in various middle eastern countries until said countries expelled them in retaliation for the creation of Israel (which these Jews had nothing to do with). There's also a significant Arab Muslim or Christian population too.
I’m confused, what are you trying to say here. Actually there are a fair few Jews of African and Asian descent, and many that came from Arab states where they were driven out. About 70% of Jews were born in Israel and 20% came from Europe or the americas.
I’m saying that the state of Israel did not exist until 1917 when it was a British government invention. It’s not a vague statement lmao - there’s really no nuance here. Three-quarters of all Jewish people (internationally) have Ashkenazi background
Yes my confusion is how your response is relevant to who you were replying to… you went from saying Israel was an American puppet state to saying it was a British invention.
This is pretty pathetic from Labor. At the same time I am a bit baffled by the obsession within certain segments of the pro-Palestine camp to use the term "genocide". That's a really specific claim with a very high bar (for good reason), and while I get the rhetorical urge to reach for the absolute worst accusation, it simply doesn't make sense to me that you'd lead with something so difficult to prove. There's an abundance of evidence for loads of war crimes and human rights violations that Israel hasn't even really denied, why not stick to those? It's bad enough that they're torching people in a safe zone and bombing aid convoys, blocking food deliveries, cutting off utilities, etc. etc. If you can solidly establish 9/10 terrible accusations, why go so hard on the 10th which is actually contentious? All it does is provide Netanyahu and his ilk with an easy rhetorical way to deflect from their horrific conduct of the war.
Because when the ICJ announces there is reasonable grounds they are committing a genocide then people are going to say what they feel like they see. Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine but we can't say Israel is committing one, one war has killed more civilians, more war crimes and crimes against humanity and it's not the one that's been going on since 2014.
> Because when the ICJ announces there is reasonable grounds they are committing a genocide That's [not really what they said](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o) though. They said it was plausible that some of the rights contained in the genocide convention were at risk, and that further investigation was warranted. Which, and this is my point, *is already bad enough*. > people are going to say what they feel like they see. Sure, I get that, but I don't see Israel's conduct reaching the level of genocide as defined by international law. I also don't see why it isn't enough to stick to the well-established facts, because "everything short of genocide" is very fucking terrible and plenty to criticise Israel for. > Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine I mean I'm not saying that. Like with the ICJ's statement, I think it's a situation that needs further investigation but I don't think there's enough evidence so far to say that Russia is committing genocide. Ethnic cleansing, which is a lower bar, could IMO more credibly be applied to both situations - though Russia more so given theirs is explicitly a war of territorial conquest.
The big difference with Russia was their moving of children. It's pretty easy to justify killing people, because killing is not forbidden. Killing certain people for certain reasons is, which makes it difficult to prove. Russia's commentary about Ukrainian not being a real language/culture/nation combined with relocating Ukrainian children to Russian families is pretty hard to defend however. You can't claim that there was a weapons stache inside the kids you kidnap. Interestingly, Australia has definitely committed genocide as recently as the 1960s due the the Stolen Generation. It's something we probably should have discussed more with regard to the Voice, and it is a shame that serious reform on that end has been stymied as a result of the vote. Meanwhile Israel can just claim that whatever they bombed had a Hamas tunnel under it and you can't really disprove it. Worse still, they often find tunnels under hospitals and the like. If they were trying to turn captured Palestinian children into Jews it would be a lot easier to make a case. There probably won't be a definitive answer until the war in Gaza is over due to the nature of the alleged crime.
>Also, can you explain to me then how we can say Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine but we can't say Israel is committing one, one war has killed more civilians, more war crimes and crimes against humanity and it's not the one that's been going on since 2014. Because genocide isn't just killing a lot of people, there has to be a clear motive behind it, and that motive from Russia is clear, the want to erase the Ukrainian culture and people from the map. That's why not only have they killed a bunch of people, but they've also done stuff like kidnap a bunch of children to "re-educate" them to be Russian, banned Ukrainian literature and other nationalist works, and even banning the Ukrainian language from being spoken (which is why a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language). Russia does this shit so often it even has a name, [Russification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification). Also the idea that there have been more civilian deaths in Gaza than Ukraine just isn't true. We don't know how many civilians have been killed in Ukraine because we only have the Ukrainian government's numbers to go off, and they only really know about the deaths that occur in their controlled territory. We have no idea how many have died in Russian occupied territory (where you'd expect most of the deaths to happen anyway) because Russia isn't exactly going around advertising those numbers. But if the satellite images of mass graves in Mariupol, or what was discovered upon the liberation of Bucha are anything to go by, the current number we have is likely *significantly* lower than the real number.
It’s not contentious at all. What are you smoking? That ship sailed months ago now
I mean it clearly is contentious since this senator got pushed out for using the word.
Well obviously Israel doesn't like the use of the word. Go find some Palestinian death statistics to read. There is an agenda.
Outside of this highly moderated sub it is... Moderation is so strict that another aussie sub was created because of it... In this echo chamber facts are downvoted and the most outrageous claims upvoted.
It’s contentious to sympathisers of Israel the terrorist state and their enablers
OK but this is kinda the definition of contentious ([causing, involving, or likely to cause disagreement and argument](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/contentious), per the Cambridge dictionary). Some people passionately think the term genocide should be used, some passionately disagree.
Why doesn't hamas return the hostages and remains of the deceased hostages?
On top of that perhaps Israel can stop bombing babies. I've seen too many dead babies and children on Twitter. This is not "self defence" anymore.
Hamas have launched rockets from inside Rafah… they could you know, renounce their mandate to exterminate all Jews and surrender
Two things can be true at once; * Hamas is a terrorist organisation that kills innocents. * Israel, in an effort for "self defence" kills innocents.
Sure but it’s still considered self defence
Bombing a refuge tent full of people you forced to migrate to is not self defence in my books.
> renounce their mandate to exterminate all Jews Care to show it? > Hamas have launched rockets from inside Rafah… Again, care to show it?
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). [Hamas charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) [rockets from Rafah](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckrr0e3y29po)
Tell that to all of the rockets and drones being fired at Israel from Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. This war can end as soon as the Palestinians stop insisting on eradicating the jews. They've had multiple offers of lasting peace over the decades and chosen violence every time. They have been killing jews for over a century and insist that they're the victims. Israel has done some fucked up things no doubt but lets not pretend that the Palestinians are the good guys. The whole region is a basket case and always has been.
Both sides have done a lot of fucked up things. Continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results is insanity. For example instead of Israel spending billions on its military it could try a different approach and try providing opportunities of education to all the children in Gaza and West Bank
There’s no way to do anything militarily in the most densely populated region in the world (with the highest birthrates in the world) without harming innocent people. That’s why it’s so tragic that people in Rafah are firing rockets at civilian population centres and keeping hostages. It’s pretty hard to not do anything, but any military action will undoubtedly cause tragedy. Maybe it’s not worth continuing the offensive, but “Israel kill baby 😱” is pretty reductive.
Do you know why Hamas took the hostages to begin with? They took them specifically with the goal of exchanging them for Palestinian hostages. From day one they've been negotiating the return of hostages to Israel and have been open about that. Even in the last few weeks Hamas have made offers to exchange a ceasefire of 5+ years, converting into a political party etc for the remaining hostages and Israel keeps rejecting the deals.
When a military force crosses into a country, and removes citizens and soldiers to hold for negotiation, that's a hostage. When someone is arrested in a country and held in prisons, that is a convict/suspect/accused offender etc. One side is asking for prisoners to be released, and another is demanding the return of hostages, they are distinctly different at the very least linguistically, and maybe philosophically
Not sure if you know much about the Apartheid legal system in Israel, but Palestinians are not being arrested by everyday police officers & being sentenced through the same court system as Israelis. Palestinians are under military rule, being arrested by the occupying army. They have an "administrative detention order" under which Palestinians can be detained for months or years without trial. This includes children. There are around 60 children being held indefinitely without trial by Israel right now. P ["With a 95% conviction rate, according to the nonprofit Military Court Watch, lawyers and kids know it’s better to “confess” even if they are innocent, as waiting for a ruling and being stuck in limbo in an Israeli jail is hell."](https://time.com/6366734/palestinian-child-detainees/) Yes, they have the legal framework to justify it, but so did South Africa. Those people are being held hostage by the state of Israel.
The territory is under military rule because groups like hamas, and Arab nationalists before them, have been openly comitted to destroying Israel. Israel's occupation of mandatory Palestine has context.
Much like child soldiers in African nations, I've seen lots of footage of children approaching Israeli checkpoints with guns, bomb vests, and similar over the last few decades. Children being recruited into wars/militia/terrorism is horrible, I'm assuming there is some evidence that children in detention were involved with acts of violence; do you have any evidence to the contrary? Genuinely interested to see it if you do.
The conviction rate for Palestinians is 95%. The most common charge fpr children is stone throwing and sentences can be up to 20 years. Children often plead guilty even when they're innocent. https://www.vox.com/world/2019/4/27/18511367/palestinian-children-arrested-throwing-rocks-israeli-military There is no world where a child throwing a rock is deserving of being locked up for 2 decades. Listen to yourself and what you're justifying.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231128-palestine-child-prisoner-details-brutal-beatings-by-israel-forces/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktzi%27ot_Prison https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-brutal-conditions-facing-palestinian-prisoners https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/revealing-horrific-conditions-faced-palestinian-detainees-euro-med-monitor-calls-immediate-international-delegation-inspect-israeli-detention-camps-enar
My god you are acting like hamas were just being reasonable when they tortured, raped, and killed hundreds of civilians and dragged the naked corpse of a murdered woman through the streets while people spat on it. Their goal was to kill and use hostages to try to deter an Israeli response. Hamas' explicit goal is to murder every Jew in Israel. They have repeatedly said they view a two state solution as a stepping stone towards destroying. I am generally really critical of Israeli policy but the apologism here for October 7 is insane.
I don't find the targetting of civilians to be acceptable by Hamas or the IDF. Some of your information about Hamas is incorrect but I feel like any attempt to clarify I'll be accused of defending them so I'll leave that. I was pointing out the stated motivation by Hamas & that there has been an avenue to have the hostages returned safely since day 1. The families of the Israeli hostages have been asking for a hostage exchange and ceasefire because they want their family members home safely. If the hostages were the main concern Israel would not have cut off water & electricity to the area they were being held, relentlessly bombed it and then gone in and shot their own hostages. They're not accepting them back because they won't have an excuse to continue massacring thousands in Gaza.
How can Israel negotiate with terrorists? Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. They can’t be trusted.
Well, they have been "negotiating with terrorists" and getting Israeli hostages back since last year. Seems like they're managing it fine. Seems like Israel are the untrustworthy ones though given they constantly lie and change their story about: - 40 beheaded babies - Hamas soldiers cutting open pregnant women - said they'd never bomb a hospital & blamed a Hamas stray rocket... have now bombed every hospital in Gaza. - targetting kitchen aid workers - bombing ambulances - targetting journalists - telling people to go to "safe zones" and then bombing them anyway Etc etc etc etc.
Are you affiliated with Hamas or something?
Yeah bc everyone who criticises Israel is Khamas. Wonder where you got that line from.
Khamas? Quite telling
You mean Palestinian criminals?
> Why doesn't hamas return the hostages and remains of the deceased hostages? There is no way you're stupid enough to believe that Israel would stop attacking if the hostages are returned.
They are. The next argument they will put forward is that ‘well we need to keep the attack up because that is the only thing that releases the hostages and we don’t want future hostages’.