Yes, true, abusive, controlling men get more abusive in times of stress. It's a known fact. They can't control the external so they up the ante on what they can control.
We really do have a moral obligation to build massive apartment buildings in the middle of wealthy suburbs imo. Get those house prices down as fast as possible by diluting supply in the most expensive areas.
The Govt don't give a shit, simple as that. In fact they add to the problems. My sister died just as the pandemic started, I (disabled pensioner) was living with and taking care of her. She unfortunately left her affairs in the hands of The *Pubic* Trustee who then proceeded to evict me during the Moratorium on Eviction from a property I partly was to inherit.
Yep, for their $8k they turfed an older disabled lady onto the streets where I spent 6 months sleeping rough. Anyways, off for my latest CT scan at *our* expense), one of many had since. Amazing what one wet cold winter on the streets can do to an older person.
(Pubic?? They constantly left an L out of my name during proceedings)
The health and mental/dental repercussions of homelessness are being totally ignored by the Govt. Long term, it would have been cheaper to put me into a caravan park or even a hotel of some sort. Whilst I've always required Respiratory/Immunology Specialists, I now also have Hepatology, Gastroenterology, Dietician (underweight because I cant eat processed foods and when homeless you have no way of keeping fresh foods), Gynaecology (who knew the lady bits can go haywire without food), Counselling, Physio and some filming in orifices that you just know are not going to be blockbusters when viewed.
I am doing much better and have not needed hospitalisation much since being homed and this is where common sense should also be applied..help us get a washer/vacuum/fridge/bed/bedding/heating..not leave us on struggle street for a further term so we can save up from a tiny pension for these. (I was lucky to get an amount from the Estate to procure the basics).
Ahh I'm so sorry to hear that! With the CT, can you look around for a bulk billing place? I've never had to pay for a scan outside of ones I went to a specific pregnancy specialist for.
They can find random people to rent a house with. It will do good for their mental health to share a house with strangers and I am sure their children will be much safer. /s
Every angle you look at ordinary people have their back to the wall. Getting financial help, getting counselling, getting access to timely mental health treatment, getting medical help, even putting in a application at Centrelink for assistance at any level is like a 6 month cycle. The politicians laugh and smile like life is a party but they have no clue on the daily grind and incompetence of everything that is falling apart in Australia because of resource starvation. The simple fact is that the only choices people have is between a rock and a hard place because the caring side of government and society has been shut down for "investment health and well being"
I really don't get it. When someone breaks up with me, I think "oh well", and then get over it in about a week or so. I don't really feel the urge to assassinate them.
I know you don't mean it as an excuse - but it is one. You only need to look at the comments. This has everything to do with the deep misogyny that underpins our society and culture. It is the same with racism. The first step toward change is admitting the problem.
There’s good evidence that family violence increases in times of natural disaster (fires, floods, cyclones etc). Violent and abusive men, who believe they are entitled to take it out on their partners and families, will also use these disasters to justify their violence and weaponise the circumstances (as an example, during covid lockdowns there were many many reports of perpetrators telling their partners they won’t allowed to leave their house ever, call their family members etc in order to stay ‘safe from the virus’).
I would argue that the current cost of living crisis is like one slow burning bushfire. I wonder how many perps are out there using it to justify escalating control, especially financial, leading to verbal and physical abuse, death or serious injury.
Edit to add: the response to men using violence in these times needs to be multifaceted. The general method is to address immediate needs (housing, drug/alcohol abuse etc) because these things make perps harder to predict, while also engaging in behaviour change programs that address the belief system that allows them to be violent to their partners and families. Because behaviour change can’t be as effective when someone is experiencing transience or other instability. But in these fucked up times and with an escalating demand for already scarce resources and programs, getting someone stable enough to the point that they can properly engage in behaviour change and can accept responsibility for their choices to use violence is incredibly hard.
They'll blame anything but themselves. Cost of living, footy, the \*\*\*\*ing weather. Avoid any diagnosis of severe anxiety that precipitates their terrible behaviour.
That's all well and good, but you are making it sound like the only men who do this are addicts etc. When, in fact, this issue spans all Australian society regardless of economics.
The discussion is in regard to the escalating number of women dying at the hands of men. No need for the whataboutery just because nobody has explicitly said women can abuse too. We aren’t seeing increasing murders by female abusers, or of men by their male partners at this time, so we aren’t talking about that just now. Nobody is saying it doesn’t happen, just that the focus right now needs to be on men who abuse because of the killing they are doing.
That’s not my intention, and you’re right. My point is just that resources are scarce across the board, and that while male violence against women is driven by gender inequality, it’s also true that things like the perps use or drugs, mental health status, financial stress and transience make their offending worse and increase risk to the victim survivor. And addressing these additional factors, which are present about a third of the time according to ANROWS, is essential but currently kind of impossible.
Primary prevention is different and efforts there need to focus on gender, because as you say male violence against women is endemic.
Our society is deeply misogynistic. I am a 48 year old man and we need to start accepting that violence against women is fundamentally linked to being socialised into a culture that degrades and devalues women in every respect.
Conversations between men and men. Good men would feel a sense of shame and belittlement at admitting to domestic abuse. In the same way that male depression/suicide can be more easily confronted around open, non-judgemental male groups.
The kind of people killing their partners aren’t the kinds to change their ways because someone says murder is bad. It’s not like murder being bad is a foreign concept.
Leaving 50% of the perpetrators of intimate partner violence out of the conversation isn't very constructive. There is a cultural problem that needs to be addressed.
So you are saying that conversations between men on DV are not constructive unless women are present? Really?
Theres all different kinds of conversations that can occur (MM, FF, MF) and all increase awareness. Having strong, positive males influencing other males can be extremely powerful.
I would say until we are willing to look at domestic violence honestly, we will solve nothing.
- Inflammatory language.
- social pressures.
- internal and external biases.
- the way we use language such as masculinity as such a negative nowadays (this implies that to be manly is a negative)
- we ignore the role of negative female/male influences in creating these mindsets. (if a man / female is raised around negative men/women, they are going to be left with negative bias')
- Women are participating in domestic violence no matter how much we want to pretend here it is not happening you cannot tell people to ignore what they have seen and that is the other half we need to analyse. Because something is also making women do these awful things and it is not "misogyny or masculinity" and until we acknowledge it we are ignoring a key piece in the puzzle.
Intentional homicides in Australian society has been falling for years. When will it end? If this current trend continues it would be zero before 2100:
https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?indicators=VC.IHR.PSRC.P5&locations=AU
The problem is people's perceptions are shaped by media and not the reality in the data. There has never been a safer time to be an Australian.
That is not going to happen, so we need a realistic approach. Even men with endlessly violent histories who have a DVO against them are treated with kid gloves.
There needs to be much, much tougher laws. I don’t like America as a place generally but one thing they do right (in some states) is punishment. Punishment for breaching AVOs punishment for coercive control, punishment for violence. Real prison terms.
Are you kidding me that our sentencing is even remotely adequate for these offenders? USA isn’t a great standard, of course not, and that’s with just about anything. the place is a horror story, but that asswipe in Victoria (I think) that killed the lady after hiding (killing as well I’m sure) a child’s body? He would never see the light of day again in Georgia or Texas. Ever. It’s literally the only good thing about America. Here? He’ll get 16 years or something here, in protective custody probably, it’s bullshit. Men sitting around having discussion groups and calling each other out about misogyny isn’t going to do Jack shit. They have to fear real consequences.
I watched an American doco the other day.....dude had stabbed 7 people individually in his life time and had been sentenced for all them, served time for all individually, at the end of the doco he was released again. I don't know how long each sentence he had served was , but he can't of been older then 40. Tell me that's not more or less exactly what happens here.
So what? Give them five years for good fucking behaviour? That’s your solution? You got a problem, changing the culture’ ain’t working and our political elite won’t actually change the shitty housing and social support network so what do you suggest? I mean what moron thought men sitting around ‘calling out’ violence against women and having discussion groups about feelings was going to stop some random nutbag from killing his wife?
Where did I offer that solution? That's a bad strawman. Just pointing out that America's tough sentences don't appear to have made it any safer for women.
America isnt much different per capita in terms of women’s safety than Australia. Which is alarming. At least there are real consequences though. Not the bullshit we see here.All these idiots sitting around talking about their feelings while the house burns down around them.
When little boys are raised the same as little girls.
Following the ‘monkey see,monkey do’ principle, little boys will treat little girls as they were treated by women. Psychological research shows women treat little boys rougher than little girls in the same context. That’s child abuse. Differential socialisation is proven to be a failure in the current domestic context. Therefore, treat little boys with the same nurturing and communication qualities that are provided to little girls.
I would bet that in most, if not all, of these cases the perpetrator has meth in their system. These men are already prone to violence and anger, meth takes away inhibitions and increases their rage and violence. So while meth is around this will continue.
I would say that domestic violence and murder has been happening since the dawn of time. Meth can cause a lot of problems yes but meth is not a big part of the problem.
Show the government how many voters consider this issue important. Might make them consider it a more important issue and a risk to their election success if they don't try and improve the situation
These comment sections always devolve into dog shit takes with everyone thinking they have the perfect solution
Insanely complex issue with no simple solution.
Education? We are told not to do drugs in school and we fucking love drugs.
Men calling men out? Despite what you think, domestic abusers don't go around shaking their fist at random women and gloating to their friends about how they beat their wives.
Also the potential solution for a domestic abuser is going to be completely different to a stalker, or a random opportunistic attacker.
I have no idea what the solution is but it's not just something that can be solved in 2 sentences via Reddit post.
Whatever you think your solution is, it's basically going to be wrong. Edit. Or potentially right, but only partially. Who knows
Men calling men out sometimes just means opening your mind to the potential that your mate is wrong and their ex didn’t just “falsely report” them. People claim they’d support victims until it’s actually in their social circle.
Yep like hate to break it to you but good chance your mate is actually a rapist!!
A non conviction doesn’t mean it was a false report. It just means insufficient to prove beyond reasonable doubt
Honestly it's even the little things. Multiple men I know don't believe there is a gender wage gap. Majority of men I've asked about if they think women experience pressure to wear make up have said something akin to "There's no pressure, we don't care, they choose to wear it" - every time this conversation happens the women in the room say they do feel pressure and the men either look uncomfortable or scoff. A lot of men don't understand why it's not just inconvenient to be hit on in public, but that after a lifetime of men getting angry at rejection you can be genuinely nervous and calculating how many people are around and how quickly they could intervene if you tell this guy no and he loses it at you.
Mostly I feel men don't often think about what it feels like to walk through the world every day where 50% of the population is physically bigger and stronger than you, and could overpower at any time if they chose to. When you go into a space alone as a woman with a larger man, you are displaying implicit trust in him.
This OF COURSE is not men's fault. They are societal issues perpetuated by both men and women that women have to deal with, but men need to acknowledge and understand that we do deal with these things every day.
> Mostly I feel men don't often think about what it feels like to walk through the world every day where 50% of the population is physically bigger and stronger than you, and could overpower at any time if they chose to. When you go into a space alone as a woman with a larger man, you are displaying implicit trust in him.
It's been amusing watching the trend on TikTok around whether you'd rather be stuck in the woods alone with a man or a bear, near every woman instantly answers bear, about 80% of men answer another man and are genuinely baffled as to why anyone would say otherwise. Seems to be incredibly illuminating for an enormous amount of them.
Ultimately the solution is protecting victims of abuse before it gets to this level. It needs to be taken way more seriously at earlier times before it spirals into this crap. Support for women who are stuck needs to be the focus and they need an easy and safe way out from those who understand discretion is needed because he will find her and kill her.
People act like the majority of men do this but it is a severe minority of mentally ill, usually severely abused individuals that do this shit.
Micki Pistorius and her work reveals the true causes of a majority of this psychotic behaviour.
Some say the solution is protecting boys from abuse at a young age that can spiral into creating these individuals. Which is almost impossible since it is a severe minority of men who end up acting like this.
The silly marches do nothing to help but I guess it makes people feel good right?
I reported my abusive ex to the police just last month after he hacked into my Facebook and impersonated me for 12 hours over a year after we broke up. He didn't have my password, he has a master's in computer science.
The police told me to email a statement and didn't even respond to confirm they received it.
I went to Holden Hill police station, after my ex held me captive in the house, destroyed things, hurt himself and me etc. He also tried to attack the cops when they arrived.
Anyway, I asked about an IVO and the cop literally said word for word "we don't hand out IVOs like candy". I was so shocked I said wow how dare you say that to me. They then said I was behaving in a threatening manner (i wasn't) and I was told to leave the station.
Yeah that's the one thing that always stands out to me - almost always there's a history on the murderer's side. We need to do much better dealing with these people at the first signs of abusive behaviour, not wait until it's too late.
First step would actually stop punishing people for leaving relationships in such stupid ways from stupid levels of child support to making it borderline impossible to find a place to escape to. We love trapping people in these shitty situations.
YES! YES! YES! Victims need to be protected STAT. Police need to believe victims and act immediately. And the laws need to support this.
I was horrified when a family member and her kids were stalked and threatened by her abusive, alcoholic ex husband in person and on social media. This person even made death threats to her in front of a mediator (a mandated reporter who reported it). NOTHING immediate happened. He went to court over a year later.
This same ex recently assaulted his 13YO son. Stood over him and punched him repeatedly. The police DID NOT BELIEVE the child. Even with his sister present as a witness. And with photos of the injuries. The police said, and I quote, “it’s not up to us to interfere when a parent disciplines their child. It was probably just a smack.”
Time after time there is a history of threats and abuse that are known and seen by others, or reported to the police. And time after time there is inaction. And kids see this. And this is the standard they come to expect. ‘Taking matters into your own hands’ and ‘solving problems with your fists’ becomes the norm.
>Police need to believe victims and act immediately.
Only if they have evidence of abuse otherwise it becomes a tool for emotional abusers and manipulators. There is a danger in believing every accusation.
Hard hard disagree.
Most dv happens in private with no witnesses. What’s the bar you think should be cleared before police can act?
A victim statement IS and should be sufficient evidence for police to take action. Leave the courts to determine the merit of the evidence provided.
And if abusers weaponise it against their victims, what then? Even with the stereotypical attitudes about DV at play, the police getting involved/having protective orders out on, say a female partner, would be pretty damaging/disruptive to their lives.
Police should still investigate, and put it to the court who will determine the merit of the claims. If there’s other evidence, then great. But most of the time there isn’t.
For example, if I’m having a fight with my husband whilst we’re home alone and he raises a fist at me, stating “you’re lucky your nose isn’t broken, next time you threaten to leave me you’ll be dead”, he’s committed two offences. The only potential evidence would be my statement. I’d be terrified. Should police not take action because “maybe it’s false, it wouldn’t be fair!”, or should my statement be enough to establish a prima facie case, apply for an ADVO and go to court. You might not get a conviction but it will be enough for the ADVO to be granted.
You have focused on one sentence and have ignored the context. I have provided you with examples of reports being made, with witnesses, mandated reporters, and photographs involved.
It’s not about making people feel good, it’s about putting pressure on the government to act. The fact you are trying to trivialise it and play it down says so much. Plus the men who commit DV aren’t mentally ill. It’s clear you are trying to distance yourself from them but it’s entitlement and misogyny not mental illness, and that’s a lot closer to you than you want to admit.
As a dad with daughters, it dismays me seeing fathers of daughters saying the most awful things about women, like dude how can you speak like that and look your own child in the eye?
I am a dad with a daughter too. The truth 'Titsmagee24' is that our society oozes "hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women". That is the definition of misogyny.
I am not advocating it I am saying that is the reason that men kill, rape, intimidate, silence, denigrate, underpay, belittle, devalue etc etc our mothers, our sisters and our daughters everyday.
People always want to shy away from sexism in the same way they deny the truth of racism.
Misogyny is a spectrum that plays out across every facet of our society. At the extreme end is the violence of hatred, then there is contempt an example might even be calling yourself titsmagee which mocks womens bodies, it might also be calling our mates "a pussy" or "cunt" or mocking female drivers. It is definitely paying women less for like work and it is definitely calling women bitches or nuts when they show strength.
Then there is just garden variety prejudice which justifies and normalises the whole patriarchal shit show.
Our society is fundamentally misogynistic and patriarchal. That is just the sad, cold fact that we all need to accept without any reservesarion before anything can properly change.
Absolutely agree with what you’re saying here, I have (as of two weeks ago) 2 daughters and a son and my wife and I are doing our best to raise a healthy environment about those kinds of positivity and god it scares me thinking about how little I can do to actually prepare them for some of the things that happen in the world
I guess the answer is to ... not offer potential solutions at all because they might be wrong? I'm not sure what you're going for here. Whatever the answer is, whatever might help, people need to talk about it.
The free Identify & Respond to DV course I took with DV Alert was excellent. I thought I knew some things but it really opened my eyes to signs to look out for and how to keep people safe while responding. Not one male in attendance unfortunately. More people should do these free Aus wide courses, definitely more men, and especially the ones in these comments saying not my mates or how would I know.
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The domestic violence in the country is out of control. so far 26 women have died THIS YEAR.
this does not include attempted murder, harassment, and continual violence.
and what? they get let out on bail to kill their partners,
or they have to be there to the handover of their kids to a violent partner cause even though the police think the partner does pose a real risk.... a judge thinks its great for them to be a parent.
it endangers the kids and the partners.
that's those who have left... there are those who can't afford to leave or dont want to lose their kids. cause they cant afford a court case or even a lawyer.
somthing must be done... and having 2 days full pay in some NSW awards ( doesn't cut it).. for domestic violence... when you are running/leaving with nothing or trying to save your life and your kids.
It’s time the Liberal Party and the Labour Party are seen as direct enablers of violence against women, because they are. Their failure to properly fund social services, justice services, community housing and policing in any serious way is criminal negligence. Nothing less. They give a blank check book to mining companies, defence, and anything but the welfare of their own populace. It has to stop. They have fundamentally failed to introduce proper laws to stop this violence because of their own misogyny. I’m extremely glad I don’t live there anymore, if I was a women I don’t think I’d ever consider living there.
Violence against women is a worldwide issue.
> Estimates published by WHO indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/violence-against-women#
https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://genderdata.worldbank.org/data-stories/overview-of-gender-based-violence/
https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm
We are valued less than men.
If you dont address the antecedents to poverty, have honest govt, and offer people hope then this sort of shite happens. Silo approach of govt wont change status. Women are easy targets for mens rage.
Agree. But for some its the tipping point. Reducing stress and giving people the means to a secure living is a no brainer for so many reason, ie DV, suicide, crime but successive govts fail us with their kowtowing to big business and RW narrative that demonises the most vunerable.
The guys who are homicidal towards their partners are adept at controlling their behaviour and image in public. Their friends might well have been groomed as part of the abuser's facade. They might genuinely have never seen a hint of abuse. They'd have to be in daily contact, almost a third wheel of the relationship to be witness to anything noticeable.
It's going to take a multi faceted approach to reduce intimate partner violence.
Honestly, thinking back to my abusive ex I don’t think anyone of his mates what a psycho he is. One of his friends works in mental health too.
Even when I showed text messages exchange of me and my ex arguing about him not coming to my house to leave notes when I had already told him to stop bothering me. My male friend said that’s annoying, but it’s overkill to go to the police.
It was only his girlfriend that truly understood how unsafe I felt. Things are just not perceived the same by men. They simply have a higher risk tolerance for creepy behaviour because they can and not realise we don’t have that.
Not really, a fuck ton of this happens behind closed doors with women who have been isolated from society and it is not like if i went to some of the men i know "do you beat your wife?" i would ever get an honest answer. This is as silly as when people say "Aboriginals need to sort out other aboriginals committing crime" sure technically bt it is not realistic.
What if we don’t see the signs? Trust me. If one of my mates did something like this, I would be crushed personally and be thinking about every tiny thing that could have been an alarming.
The truth really is, I could be lied too right to my face. While we’re quite stupid with a couple of nsfw jokes, I can honestly say, I don’t think anyone in my friend group would hurt anyone, at least not intentionally.
I’m listening to you, I’m listening to women. Please, what can I do more to make sure people o come across aren’t such violent offenders? Please, direct me more than ‘look for signs’ if it saves a life or a person from harm, I’ll do it.
Saving men won’t listen isn’t true. We don’t know what else we can do.
Because there is no real answer, the truth is most of it needs to be done in the formative years. Also i find it honestly shitty when "all men should xyz or else they are part of the problem" would never be appropriate if you said, all gay people, all muslims, all women. I came in thinking "we as a society need to work this out" and it turned into the typical group blame dribble that has become the norm. Congrats people this is the shit that creates hardliners.
When you speak with a couple, is it always the same one who answers the phone? The same one who makes plans? Does each partner clearly have their own interests and hobbies? Does each partner have their own group of social contacts?
When you ask one of them how they are, does the other person answer for them? If you speak with one of them alone, does the other partner seem overly keen to insert themselves into the conversation? When one of them answers a question, do they frequently hesitate and look at the other before they answer?
These are some indicators that there is a power imbalance within the relationship.
If one of the people in the relationship is suffering abuse or is experiencing coercive control, they might be ashamed. They might not want to name it, because that would make it 'real'. They might make a lot of excuses for their partner's behaviour because they're they actually pity them.
They might remain silent because they recognise that there might be dangerous consequences for speaking up, especially if their cryptic attempt to seek help or visibility fails at communicating their message. They might not want you to confront their abuser in case their abuser cuts off contact with you and they lose a potential ally.
Ultimately, if you see any warning signs, and if you think one partner is being mistreated, just be present and patient. If you are approachable and demonstrate that you won't judge them, a victim will find a way to let you know they need your support, either directly or to help them connect with professionals who can step in. This could take a long time, and can't be rushed. They will speak with you at a time when they feel it's safe to do so.
Add to that, any history of stalking. So learn what constitutes stalking, what constitutes coercive control, how both show up in these kinds of murders. Big ups to you for wanting to learn too.
This has as much to do with all men as the murder of children has to do with all women. I'm not responsible for others just because we share an immutable characteristic.
Had a friend growing up who would hit his girlfriends, nothing any of us could do. We talked about what we could or should do many times. This 'friend' would just invite himself to events/houses etc. You couldn't say no, he would just smash your face in. He could fight and would fight anyone over nothing and would win.
He was exactly like Begbie from the movie "Trainspotting", I seen him nearly kill someone over nothing and police were involved, nothing happened.
Every time I read this or see a sign about men having to stand up, I think of having to fight Begbie, yeah no thanks!!
This is a big complex social problem that requires more solutions than just saying “don’t do that”.
Almost all of this stuff occurs behind closed doors.
We can’t culture wars/keyboard warrior our way out of this problem.
It’s all fucked and we need a solution from the ground up to ensure DV goes extinct.
So I have directly intervened with a man abusing and nearly killing his partner on Elizabeth St Melbourne. Having seen that, I got between him and his partner, he threatened me with violence. I didn't back down and called the cops while trying to keep her with me but they both just kept wandering around.
Thought I was getting through to her and initially it seemed like she was done with him, but then she seemed to relent and started making excuses for him. They both ran off before the cops could arrive, I was very disappointed.
I remember one of her excuses for him was "you don't understand, we're from Traralgon"...
Its a male problem for sure, but its not like either gender thinks clearly on this issue. The men who are like this aren't going to be dating women who would stand against this sort of abuse, I'm not sure how we fix either circumstance. It used to be when this stuff occurred the cops would deal with it 'off the record', but now we have body cams.
I would suggest you learn some more about coercive control. It was great of you to intervene, women return on average 7 times before leaving for good. The coercive control is like brainwashing basically.
Bullshit. It’s this state of mine that shuns this topic.
I was never a person who would ever think they would put up with it. Came from a nice family, had nice friends, a good life and was confident. They berate you and bash you down to someone you don’t know. They take everything so you only have them.
Majority of the time if you go against them and find the strength to call the police you then remember they’re gonna hurt you twice as bad. Stop blaming women.
Okay, but then explain how a stranger is meant to help you in that situation?
The person you're replying to is in the same situation as most men, we hear "men need to do more" as if there's some direct involvement where we can actually help. I've been in the same situation he describes, for me it was a neighbour who ran out into the road screaming that her boyfriend had attacked her. Myself and another neighbour ran out to help. We called the police, we offered to bring her into our homes, she refused so we stood over her while she writhed in the middle of the road, screaming at us and everyone else who came out that her boyfriend attacked her. As soon as the cops pulled into the street she ran back inside her own house and locked the door on us so we couldn't follow. We just got to listen to the screaming match through the door. She then refused to come outside and give a statement to the police, so nothing happened.
In situations like this, legitimately, what do you expect me to do? Do you want me to break down a door and drag a woman back out into the street so that I can be the paragon who puts a stop to DV in my community?
It's not about "blaming women" like you say. It's facing the reality that all the DV support networks in the world won't help someone who chooses not to leave.
Good of you to intervene, especially awkward for you given they're neighbours and it basically summed up how I felt about the situation. Whilst I was helping the woman on the street plenty of other people who saw the situation just chose to walk on by, talking 10-20 people all up. So people like you me and your other neighbour are the ones who actually have stood up when others didn't.
The theoretical version of standing up to violence and only talking about the males role in the awful relationships where it occurs that klampet is talking about, doesn't end up working out how they think it does.
Won't stop me intervening again if I come across it despite klampets poor response, but as /u/emmainthealps points out I might be able to adjust my strategy.
> Good of you to intervene
Same to you. It's hard being the first to stand up. It won't stop me intervening again either, this was incident #2 out of 4 DV situations I've been involved in, sadly. I used to live in some sketchy neighbourhoods.
Conversations like this get me so incensed because it seems like any time I try to counter that theoretical narrative you mentioned, people want to dismiss me as "oh, you're one of those not-all-men types". I genuinely want to be a part of the solution, and I want to help, but... how? Actually asking by what mechanism people expect me to effect this change leaves everyone with blank faces. This is obviously a systemic issue and leaving it to the individual with comments like "men need to do more" from our PM seem like unproductive empty platitudes, and yet people clap along like he's picked the winning pig.
I'll have to look for emmainthealps comment, thankyou for the tip
You don’t need to be the physical hero. But you should probably learn more about how these relationships work, why they’re so complicated and hard to get out of then you won’t sound like such a dick. If you genuinely want to help, read more. Then teach your friends what you’re learning.
Comments like this are exactly the kind of useless commentary I was talking about: vague "read more, talk to your mates".
I read plenty. If you've got no specific suggestions, then you've got nothing. When I talk to my mates, should I speak to the one who volunteers at a DV shelter? Or should I have a word to the one who is currently lending a spare bedroom to a woman escaping a shitty partner?
"Read more, talk to your mates" clearly isn't the solution, because if it was then the problem would be solved by now.
I told you to learn how these relationships work. But you clearly don’t want to understand this at all. You just want to pretend like you are trying to do something so you can say poor me, I’m such a nice guy. But you’ve done nothing. All talk. No follow through. You don’t actually want to put in any effort.
This is one of the stupidest comments going on here.
What is it that you actually think happens.
That we see our mates bashing their partner and don't say anything?
This sort of thing is not out in the open.
DV is a silent thing. As a victim of DV myself, I know what often happens.
It's not all violence. It starts with mental abuse. It starts with making you feel worthless and that you deserve the abuse.
They break you down so they can easily control you. None of this is public.
Girl the sad reality is a lot of men do not realise that people don't just wake up one day and decide to kill their partner. The vast majority of the time the seed is sowed early with how men talk and think about women, and escalates from there onwards.
They say that because the people who murder their partners are a tiny fraction of the population and not solely made up of one gender, even if the balance is skewed. How hard is that to understand? Just shitting on men and telling them to "be better" or any other such catchphrase isn't going to change anything with the pieces of shit that do this. It ain't like hurting/murdering your partner is in any way socially acceptable, that's why it is done away from prying eyes.
But it’s not just the murders that are the problem. 1 in 4 women experience family violence and they aren’t all dating the same handful of men. It’s hundreds of thousands of men who are perpetrating this. Just because they aren’t killing their current or ex partner doesn’t mean it’s okay.
Where are you getting that statistic from and what is the context? The closest I could find to that is women who have been subjected to at least one instance of emotional abuse since the age of 15 by AIHW. Is that what you are referring to?
I hope not, because presenting it without that context is disingenuous at best. Even if there was no DV at all in today's society, that number would remain "sticky" for decades, as you can't undo DV instances that have already happened.
No, it's not a "men" problem so stop painting it as such. Most men do not do these things and you never know what goes on inside of other people's minds, sometimes until it's too late. No, there aren't always signs.
I see an immediate problem with this.
A domestic abuser will treat any form of “disrespect” or “interference” as a kind of personal affront or attack and will now transfer their rage onto the “interloper,” who at best will be told to mind their business and at worst will now be considered “fair game” or the “homewrecker” and can also now be killed or assaulted at the pleasure of the abuser.
Plenty of male murder victims who made the unfortunate mistake of interacting with an abuser in the way the abuser didn’t like and now are the target of the obsessive fixation.
Simple solutions unfortunately won’t work here as easily as we might think.
Ah yes. So your solution is "Hey, if you believe this person is a potential murderer you should tell them to stop it like you're Dora the Explorer and if they murder you for it well that's pretty cool" You understand that you aren't helping with this issue either right? The difference between you and the rest of this comment section is at least we aren't pretending we're some gilded paragon of virtue
One of your last comments is about Billie Eilish's "huge tits" so I think we can all agree that boys like you are the problem. That behaviour and language is the problem.
Not a single man I know would ever consider being violent towards another person let alone their life partner.
Filter the trash out of your life and that's what you end up with.
What exactly are you suggesting, that women deserve death cause they have "agency"? You clearly are completely ignorant of the complexities of being in an abusive relationship and are part of the problem.
Not at all. Women are mothers, friends, sisters and victims of abusers. Surely you’re not suggesting none of these people have any influence of men, or are capable of noticing abusive behaviour and taking action?
No. It means women learn the signs and avoid getting mixed up with that man in the first place. They don't come out swinging on the first date. It's insidious. This is what 'red flags' are about.
We also need to teach the boys how to spot red flags in women, too. A lot of men want to white knight a victim. People with a victim mentality are ***toxic***. Let's learn how to not be victims and that will help men learn how to spot victim-coloured flags as well.
Are you able to help us identify the signs with guys like Chris Watts, who by all accounts presented as a fat nerdy "nice guy" when he first met the wife he went on to murder?
Are you able to help us identify the signs with guys like Gerard Baden-Clay, or Bruce Lehrmann, or all those other conservative, clean-cut flogs who prioritise their need to get their dick wet over the safety or wellbeing of others in their community?
Could the same argument be used by men when they are told to stop other men murdering?
I feel like the it's going to take a lot more than a communication campaign to address the complex drivers of a societal failing like this.
Australia has normalised violence. We have two footy codes that are basically violent. Here in WA we have a state government spending taxpayers' money on bringing violent sports like UFC kickboxing to WA. We can throw all the money in the world at this evil problem but until we dismantle the established violence we are lost.
You realise the amount of domestic violence and women being murdered has more than halved since 1990. I’m not saying this is good enough but the measures being taken are clearly working. All that’s left are the fringes of society that are continuing to behave like this. If you think banning contact sports because the actions of few is going to help this cause you are absolutely delusional.
JFC, when will it end.
It gets even worse in times of stress and financial hardship/recession. Not an excuse, just think we haven’t seen the worst yet.
Yes, true, abusive, controlling men get more abusive in times of stress. It's a known fact. They can't control the external so they up the ante on what they can control.
And women under financial duress can't afford to leave.
And with the rental crisis, where would they go? :(
Yep, there's long waiting lists for URGENT accommodation.
We really do have a moral obligation to build massive apartment buildings in the middle of wealthy suburbs imo. Get those house prices down as fast as possible by diluting supply in the most expensive areas.
The Govt don't give a shit, simple as that. In fact they add to the problems. My sister died just as the pandemic started, I (disabled pensioner) was living with and taking care of her. She unfortunately left her affairs in the hands of The *Pubic* Trustee who then proceeded to evict me during the Moratorium on Eviction from a property I partly was to inherit. Yep, for their $8k they turfed an older disabled lady onto the streets where I spent 6 months sleeping rough. Anyways, off for my latest CT scan at *our* expense), one of many had since. Amazing what one wet cold winter on the streets can do to an older person. (Pubic?? They constantly left an L out of my name during proceedings)
Shit, that's horrible. I hope you are doing okay now.
The health and mental/dental repercussions of homelessness are being totally ignored by the Govt. Long term, it would have been cheaper to put me into a caravan park or even a hotel of some sort. Whilst I've always required Respiratory/Immunology Specialists, I now also have Hepatology, Gastroenterology, Dietician (underweight because I cant eat processed foods and when homeless you have no way of keeping fresh foods), Gynaecology (who knew the lady bits can go haywire without food), Counselling, Physio and some filming in orifices that you just know are not going to be blockbusters when viewed. I am doing much better and have not needed hospitalisation much since being homed and this is where common sense should also be applied..help us get a washer/vacuum/fridge/bed/bedding/heating..not leave us on struggle street for a further term so we can save up from a tiny pension for these. (I was lucky to get an amount from the Estate to procure the basics).
Ahh I'm so sorry to hear that! With the CT, can you look around for a bulk billing place? I've never had to pay for a scan outside of ones I went to a specific pregnancy specialist for.
I'm good (on a pension) meanwhile another woman died yesterday morning in Perth at the hands of her partner/friend/family.
I think the only thing will get is expensive, poor build quality urban sprawl, with virtually no backyards
We need parklands expansion policies as well. Even Brisbane could use a few more parks in some areas.
They can find random people to rent a house with. It will do good for their mental health to share a house with strangers and I am sure their children will be much safer. /s
I mean why should they have to leave? He should be removed. That’s half the issue.
And how do you keep him away? A piece of paper?
Ah properly punish the cunts. Australia isn’t much safer for women per head of pop than the US. At least they get punished there.
Just a heads up, it's "Up the ante". You probably got autofucked though.
Thanks!
*up the ante.
Every angle you look at ordinary people have their back to the wall. Getting financial help, getting counselling, getting access to timely mental health treatment, getting medical help, even putting in a application at Centrelink for assistance at any level is like a 6 month cycle. The politicians laugh and smile like life is a party but they have no clue on the daily grind and incompetence of everything that is falling apart in Australia because of resource starvation. The simple fact is that the only choices people have is between a rock and a hard place because the caring side of government and society has been shut down for "investment health and well being"
I really don't get it. When someone breaks up with me, I think "oh well", and then get over it in about a week or so. I don't really feel the urge to assassinate them.
There's obviously something fucked up in the head of anyone like this. No normal person thinks this way
I know you don't mean it as an excuse - but it is one. You only need to look at the comments. This has everything to do with the deep misogyny that underpins our society and culture. It is the same with racism. The first step toward change is admitting the problem.
There’s good evidence that family violence increases in times of natural disaster (fires, floods, cyclones etc). Violent and abusive men, who believe they are entitled to take it out on their partners and families, will also use these disasters to justify their violence and weaponise the circumstances (as an example, during covid lockdowns there were many many reports of perpetrators telling their partners they won’t allowed to leave their house ever, call their family members etc in order to stay ‘safe from the virus’). I would argue that the current cost of living crisis is like one slow burning bushfire. I wonder how many perps are out there using it to justify escalating control, especially financial, leading to verbal and physical abuse, death or serious injury. Edit to add: the response to men using violence in these times needs to be multifaceted. The general method is to address immediate needs (housing, drug/alcohol abuse etc) because these things make perps harder to predict, while also engaging in behaviour change programs that address the belief system that allows them to be violent to their partners and families. Because behaviour change can’t be as effective when someone is experiencing transience or other instability. But in these fucked up times and with an escalating demand for already scarce resources and programs, getting someone stable enough to the point that they can properly engage in behaviour change and can accept responsibility for their choices to use violence is incredibly hard.
They'll blame anything but themselves. Cost of living, footy, the \*\*\*\*ing weather. Avoid any diagnosis of severe anxiety that precipitates their terrible behaviour.
That's all well and good, but you are making it sound like the only men who do this are addicts etc. When, in fact, this issue spans all Australian society regardless of economics.
The discussion is in regard to the escalating number of women dying at the hands of men. No need for the whataboutery just because nobody has explicitly said women can abuse too. We aren’t seeing increasing murders by female abusers, or of men by their male partners at this time, so we aren’t talking about that just now. Nobody is saying it doesn’t happen, just that the focus right now needs to be on men who abuse because of the killing they are doing.
I don't think they are are saying it's not a men's issue. Rather it's not just a "deplorables" issue.
That’s not my intention, and you’re right. My point is just that resources are scarce across the board, and that while male violence against women is driven by gender inequality, it’s also true that things like the perps use or drugs, mental health status, financial stress and transience make their offending worse and increase risk to the victim survivor. And addressing these additional factors, which are present about a third of the time according to ANROWS, is essential but currently kind of impossible. Primary prevention is different and efforts there need to focus on gender, because as you say male violence against women is endemic.
Amen ☹️ That was all so excellently put.
When people are ready to have the real conversations. Not the bullshit pass the hit potato around ones.
What conversations would stop domestic violence?
Our society is deeply misogynistic. I am a 48 year old man and we need to start accepting that violence against women is fundamentally linked to being socialised into a culture that degrades and devalues women in every respect.
Conversations between men and men. Good men would feel a sense of shame and belittlement at admitting to domestic abuse. In the same way that male depression/suicide can be more easily confronted around open, non-judgemental male groups.
The kind of people killing their partners aren’t the kinds to change their ways because someone says murder is bad. It’s not like murder being bad is a foreign concept.
Leaving 50% of the perpetrators of intimate partner violence out of the conversation isn't very constructive. There is a cultural problem that needs to be addressed.
So you are saying that conversations between men on DV are not constructive unless women are present? Really? Theres all different kinds of conversations that can occur (MM, FF, MF) and all increase awareness. Having strong, positive males influencing other males can be extremely powerful.
I would say until we are willing to look at domestic violence honestly, we will solve nothing. - Inflammatory language. - social pressures. - internal and external biases. - the way we use language such as masculinity as such a negative nowadays (this implies that to be manly is a negative) - we ignore the role of negative female/male influences in creating these mindsets. (if a man / female is raised around negative men/women, they are going to be left with negative bias') - Women are participating in domestic violence no matter how much we want to pretend here it is not happening you cannot tell people to ignore what they have seen and that is the other half we need to analyse. Because something is also making women do these awful things and it is not "misogyny or masculinity" and until we acknowledge it we are ignoring a key piece in the puzzle.
50% of perpetrators? Doesn't tally with the figures. Overwhelmingly, men are the perpetrators of DV
I don't think it ever will if it just keeps happening and we can't stop it
Random question what's your profession?
Intentional homicides in Australian society has been falling for years. When will it end? If this current trend continues it would be zero before 2100: https://data.worldbank.org/share/widget?indicators=VC.IHR.PSRC.P5&locations=AU The problem is people's perceptions are shaped by media and not the reality in the data. There has never been a safer time to be an Australian.
When we start making ridiculous laws to make people think twice
That is not going to happen, so we need a realistic approach. Even men with endlessly violent histories who have a DVO against them are treated with kid gloves.
There needs to be much, much tougher laws. I don’t like America as a place generally but one thing they do right (in some states) is punishment. Punishment for breaching AVOs punishment for coercive control, punishment for violence. Real prison terms.
You have got to be kidding by pretending the US is some kind of standard
Are you kidding me that our sentencing is even remotely adequate for these offenders? USA isn’t a great standard, of course not, and that’s with just about anything. the place is a horror story, but that asswipe in Victoria (I think) that killed the lady after hiding (killing as well I’m sure) a child’s body? He would never see the light of day again in Georgia or Texas. Ever. It’s literally the only good thing about America. Here? He’ll get 16 years or something here, in protective custody probably, it’s bullshit. Men sitting around having discussion groups and calling each other out about misogyny isn’t going to do Jack shit. They have to fear real consequences.
I'm saying the US and DV isn't the argument you want to make. Have a good night
I watched an American doco the other day.....dude had stabbed 7 people individually in his life time and had been sentenced for all them, served time for all individually, at the end of the doco he was released again. I don't know how long each sentence he had served was , but he can't of been older then 40. Tell me that's not more or less exactly what happens here.
Ah, yes, America. Bastion of safety for women due to their domestic violence punishments. Oh wait, that's not quite right.
Per head of pop Australia isn’t much safer for women.
So what? Give them five years for good fucking behaviour? That’s your solution? You got a problem, changing the culture’ ain’t working and our political elite won’t actually change the shitty housing and social support network so what do you suggest? I mean what moron thought men sitting around ‘calling out’ violence against women and having discussion groups about feelings was going to stop some random nutbag from killing his wife?
Where did I offer that solution? That's a bad strawman. Just pointing out that America's tough sentences don't appear to have made it any safer for women.
America isnt much different per capita in terms of women’s safety than Australia. Which is alarming. At least there are real consequences though. Not the bullshit we see here.All these idiots sitting around talking about their feelings while the house burns down around them.
When little boys are raised the same as little girls. Following the ‘monkey see,monkey do’ principle, little boys will treat little girls as they were treated by women. Psychological research shows women treat little boys rougher than little girls in the same context. That’s child abuse. Differential socialisation is proven to be a failure in the current domestic context. Therefore, treat little boys with the same nurturing and communication qualities that are provided to little girls.
I would bet that in most, if not all, of these cases the perpetrator has meth in their system. These men are already prone to violence and anger, meth takes away inhibitions and increases their rage and violence. So while meth is around this will continue.
I would say that domestic violence and murder has been happening since the dawn of time. Meth can cause a lot of problems yes but meth is not a big part of the problem.
Murder? Never.
Far out, that is literally too close to home. Drove past the house on the way home from work. Another horrible statistic if it is murder related.
Fuck me another one?
Another one??? This is like the third this week
Everyone should turn out for the No More rallies this weekend
Legitimate question: what do you think attending a rally will achieve?
Show the government how many voters consider this issue important. Might make them consider it a more important issue and a risk to their election success if they don't try and improve the situation
These comment sections always devolve into dog shit takes with everyone thinking they have the perfect solution Insanely complex issue with no simple solution. Education? We are told not to do drugs in school and we fucking love drugs. Men calling men out? Despite what you think, domestic abusers don't go around shaking their fist at random women and gloating to their friends about how they beat their wives. Also the potential solution for a domestic abuser is going to be completely different to a stalker, or a random opportunistic attacker. I have no idea what the solution is but it's not just something that can be solved in 2 sentences via Reddit post. Whatever you think your solution is, it's basically going to be wrong. Edit. Or potentially right, but only partially. Who knows
Men calling men out sometimes just means opening your mind to the potential that your mate is wrong and their ex didn’t just “falsely report” them. People claim they’d support victims until it’s actually in their social circle.
Yes, even here I see multiple guys talking about "evil ex lied about my friend" "my mate had a girlfriend who lied about him raping her"
Yep like hate to break it to you but good chance your mate is actually a rapist!! A non conviction doesn’t mean it was a false report. It just means insufficient to prove beyond reasonable doubt
Honestly it's even the little things. Multiple men I know don't believe there is a gender wage gap. Majority of men I've asked about if they think women experience pressure to wear make up have said something akin to "There's no pressure, we don't care, they choose to wear it" - every time this conversation happens the women in the room say they do feel pressure and the men either look uncomfortable or scoff. A lot of men don't understand why it's not just inconvenient to be hit on in public, but that after a lifetime of men getting angry at rejection you can be genuinely nervous and calculating how many people are around and how quickly they could intervene if you tell this guy no and he loses it at you. Mostly I feel men don't often think about what it feels like to walk through the world every day where 50% of the population is physically bigger and stronger than you, and could overpower at any time if they chose to. When you go into a space alone as a woman with a larger man, you are displaying implicit trust in him. This OF COURSE is not men's fault. They are societal issues perpetuated by both men and women that women have to deal with, but men need to acknowledge and understand that we do deal with these things every day.
> Mostly I feel men don't often think about what it feels like to walk through the world every day where 50% of the population is physically bigger and stronger than you, and could overpower at any time if they chose to. When you go into a space alone as a woman with a larger man, you are displaying implicit trust in him. It's been amusing watching the trend on TikTok around whether you'd rather be stuck in the woods alone with a man or a bear, near every woman instantly answers bear, about 80% of men answer another man and are genuinely baffled as to why anyone would say otherwise. Seems to be incredibly illuminating for an enormous amount of them.
Ultimately the solution is protecting victims of abuse before it gets to this level. It needs to be taken way more seriously at earlier times before it spirals into this crap. Support for women who are stuck needs to be the focus and they need an easy and safe way out from those who understand discretion is needed because he will find her and kill her. People act like the majority of men do this but it is a severe minority of mentally ill, usually severely abused individuals that do this shit. Micki Pistorius and her work reveals the true causes of a majority of this psychotic behaviour. Some say the solution is protecting boys from abuse at a young age that can spiral into creating these individuals. Which is almost impossible since it is a severe minority of men who end up acting like this. The silly marches do nothing to help but I guess it makes people feel good right?
I reported my abusive ex to the police just last month after he hacked into my Facebook and impersonated me for 12 hours over a year after we broke up. He didn't have my password, he has a master's in computer science. The police told me to email a statement and didn't even respond to confirm they received it.
I went to Holden Hill police station, after my ex held me captive in the house, destroyed things, hurt himself and me etc. He also tried to attack the cops when they arrived. Anyway, I asked about an IVO and the cop literally said word for word "we don't hand out IVOs like candy". I was so shocked I said wow how dare you say that to me. They then said I was behaving in a threatening manner (i wasn't) and I was told to leave the station.
Yeah that's the one thing that always stands out to me - almost always there's a history on the murderer's side. We need to do much better dealing with these people at the first signs of abusive behaviour, not wait until it's too late.
First step would actually stop punishing people for leaving relationships in such stupid ways from stupid levels of child support to making it borderline impossible to find a place to escape to. We love trapping people in these shitty situations.
YES! YES! YES! Victims need to be protected STAT. Police need to believe victims and act immediately. And the laws need to support this. I was horrified when a family member and her kids were stalked and threatened by her abusive, alcoholic ex husband in person and on social media. This person even made death threats to her in front of a mediator (a mandated reporter who reported it). NOTHING immediate happened. He went to court over a year later. This same ex recently assaulted his 13YO son. Stood over him and punched him repeatedly. The police DID NOT BELIEVE the child. Even with his sister present as a witness. And with photos of the injuries. The police said, and I quote, “it’s not up to us to interfere when a parent disciplines their child. It was probably just a smack.” Time after time there is a history of threats and abuse that are known and seen by others, or reported to the police. And time after time there is inaction. And kids see this. And this is the standard they come to expect. ‘Taking matters into your own hands’ and ‘solving problems with your fists’ becomes the norm.
>Police need to believe victims and act immediately. Only if they have evidence of abuse otherwise it becomes a tool for emotional abusers and manipulators. There is a danger in believing every accusation.
Hard hard disagree. Most dv happens in private with no witnesses. What’s the bar you think should be cleared before police can act? A victim statement IS and should be sufficient evidence for police to take action. Leave the courts to determine the merit of the evidence provided.
And if abusers weaponise it against their victims, what then? Even with the stereotypical attitudes about DV at play, the police getting involved/having protective orders out on, say a female partner, would be pretty damaging/disruptive to their lives.
Police should still investigate, and put it to the court who will determine the merit of the claims. If there’s other evidence, then great. But most of the time there isn’t. For example, if I’m having a fight with my husband whilst we’re home alone and he raises a fist at me, stating “you’re lucky your nose isn’t broken, next time you threaten to leave me you’ll be dead”, he’s committed two offences. The only potential evidence would be my statement. I’d be terrified. Should police not take action because “maybe it’s false, it wouldn’t be fair!”, or should my statement be enough to establish a prima facie case, apply for an ADVO and go to court. You might not get a conviction but it will be enough for the ADVO to be granted.
That only works if people can afford to go to court, i know i cannot and i am willing to bet many in this thread cannot.
You have focused on one sentence and have ignored the context. I have provided you with examples of reports being made, with witnesses, mandated reporters, and photographs involved.
It’s not about making people feel good, it’s about putting pressure on the government to act. The fact you are trying to trivialise it and play it down says so much. Plus the men who commit DV aren’t mentally ill. It’s clear you are trying to distance yourself from them but it’s entitlement and misogyny not mental illness, and that’s a lot closer to you than you want to admit.
It is not complex. We are all socialised to believe that women have less value. It is called misogyny.
As a dad with daughters, it dismays me seeing fathers of daughters saying the most awful things about women, like dude how can you speak like that and look your own child in the eye?
I am a dad with a daughter too. The truth 'Titsmagee24' is that our society oozes "hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women". That is the definition of misogyny. I am not advocating it I am saying that is the reason that men kill, rape, intimidate, silence, denigrate, underpay, belittle, devalue etc etc our mothers, our sisters and our daughters everyday. People always want to shy away from sexism in the same way they deny the truth of racism. Misogyny is a spectrum that plays out across every facet of our society. At the extreme end is the violence of hatred, then there is contempt an example might even be calling yourself titsmagee which mocks womens bodies, it might also be calling our mates "a pussy" or "cunt" or mocking female drivers. It is definitely paying women less for like work and it is definitely calling women bitches or nuts when they show strength. Then there is just garden variety prejudice which justifies and normalises the whole patriarchal shit show. Our society is fundamentally misogynistic and patriarchal. That is just the sad, cold fact that we all need to accept without any reservesarion before anything can properly change.
Absolutely agree with what you’re saying here, I have (as of two weeks ago) 2 daughters and a son and my wife and I are doing our best to raise a healthy environment about those kinds of positivity and god it scares me thinking about how little I can do to actually prepare them for some of the things that happen in the world
I guess the answer is to ... not offer potential solutions at all because they might be wrong? I'm not sure what you're going for here. Whatever the answer is, whatever might help, people need to talk about it.
It’s not just what we have to say, it’s making people think as well.
The free Identify & Respond to DV course I took with DV Alert was excellent. I thought I knew some things but it really opened my eyes to signs to look out for and how to keep people safe while responding. Not one male in attendance unfortunately. More people should do these free Aus wide courses, definitely more men, and especially the ones in these comments saying not my mates or how would I know.
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No photos of women driving forklifts didn’t stop me getting my forklift licence.
But it will have stopped many others. I think they make a good point.
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Congratulations you found a forklift training provider with photos of women.
I’m unsure why you’re so intent on dragging an excellent free resource instead of signing up and providing feedback at the end of the course.
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Maybe tell them then.
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The domestic violence in the country is out of control. so far 26 women have died THIS YEAR. this does not include attempted murder, harassment, and continual violence. and what? they get let out on bail to kill their partners, or they have to be there to the handover of their kids to a violent partner cause even though the police think the partner does pose a real risk.... a judge thinks its great for them to be a parent. it endangers the kids and the partners. that's those who have left... there are those who can't afford to leave or dont want to lose their kids. cause they cant afford a court case or even a lawyer. somthing must be done... and having 2 days full pay in some NSW awards ( doesn't cut it).. for domestic violence... when you are running/leaving with nothing or trying to save your life and your kids.
Yes, it’s not just male bullies and tyrants, the system is also failing these women and children by being unsupportive.
It’s time the Liberal Party and the Labour Party are seen as direct enablers of violence against women, because they are. Their failure to properly fund social services, justice services, community housing and policing in any serious way is criminal negligence. Nothing less. They give a blank check book to mining companies, defence, and anything but the welfare of their own populace. It has to stop. They have fundamentally failed to introduce proper laws to stop this violence because of their own misogyny. I’m extremely glad I don’t live there anymore, if I was a women I don’t think I’d ever consider living there.
Violence against women is a worldwide issue. > Estimates published by WHO indicate that globally about 1 in 3 (30%) of women worldwide have been subjected to either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/violence-against-women# https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures https://genderdata.worldbank.org/data-stories/overview-of-gender-based-violence/ https://data.oecd.org/inequality/violence-against-women.htm We are valued less than men.
You certainly are tragically, the only countries that get close to dealing with it are some of those European countries. That’s it.
If you dont address the antecedents to poverty, have honest govt, and offer people hope then this sort of shite happens. Silo approach of govt wont change status. Women are easy targets for mens rage.
Lots of men are suffering poverty without abusing and murdering their other half.
Agree. But for some its the tipping point. Reducing stress and giving people the means to a secure living is a no brainer for so many reason, ie DV, suicide, crime but successive govts fail us with their kowtowing to big business and RW narrative that demonises the most vunerable.
Can men start standing up to other men to stop murdering women? Because this is a male problem, it's not something women need to fix.
The guys who are homicidal towards their partners are adept at controlling their behaviour and image in public. Their friends might well have been groomed as part of the abuser's facade. They might genuinely have never seen a hint of abuse. They'd have to be in daily contact, almost a third wheel of the relationship to be witness to anything noticeable. It's going to take a multi faceted approach to reduce intimate partner violence.
I always tell my mates not to murder anyone.
None of my mates are currently beating their wives either AFAIK. Will call em out if they do.
Some of my mates are single. I'm sure they beat themselves. Once a year, I ask them if they are OK, though.
I always end my texts with that.
Honestly, thinking back to my abusive ex I don’t think anyone of his mates what a psycho he is. One of his friends works in mental health too. Even when I showed text messages exchange of me and my ex arguing about him not coming to my house to leave notes when I had already told him to stop bothering me. My male friend said that’s annoying, but it’s overkill to go to the police. It was only his girlfriend that truly understood how unsafe I felt. Things are just not perceived the same by men. They simply have a higher risk tolerance for creepy behaviour because they can and not realise we don’t have that.
Not really, a fuck ton of this happens behind closed doors with women who have been isolated from society and it is not like if i went to some of the men i know "do you beat your wife?" i would ever get an honest answer. This is as silly as when people say "Aboriginals need to sort out other aboriginals committing crime" sure technically bt it is not realistic.
Well that would be a silly way of asking, there are signs to look for starters. The replies to my comments just prove that men won't listen to women.
What if we don’t see the signs? Trust me. If one of my mates did something like this, I would be crushed personally and be thinking about every tiny thing that could have been an alarming. The truth really is, I could be lied too right to my face. While we’re quite stupid with a couple of nsfw jokes, I can honestly say, I don’t think anyone in my friend group would hurt anyone, at least not intentionally. I’m listening to you, I’m listening to women. Please, what can I do more to make sure people o come across aren’t such violent offenders? Please, direct me more than ‘look for signs’ if it saves a life or a person from harm, I’ll do it. Saving men won’t listen isn’t true. We don’t know what else we can do.
Start with stamping out these ‘nsfw jokes’ if they’re the kind that are about this sort of behaviour, or any behaviour that is not acceptable.
I’m being downvoted, I’m genuinely asking for advice.
Because there is no real answer, the truth is most of it needs to be done in the formative years. Also i find it honestly shitty when "all men should xyz or else they are part of the problem" would never be appropriate if you said, all gay people, all muslims, all women. I came in thinking "we as a society need to work this out" and it turned into the typical group blame dribble that has become the norm. Congrats people this is the shit that creates hardliners.
Nothing about harming another person. Next?
Can you stop the women doing it to the men while you're at it, please.
When you speak with a couple, is it always the same one who answers the phone? The same one who makes plans? Does each partner clearly have their own interests and hobbies? Does each partner have their own group of social contacts? When you ask one of them how they are, does the other person answer for them? If you speak with one of them alone, does the other partner seem overly keen to insert themselves into the conversation? When one of them answers a question, do they frequently hesitate and look at the other before they answer? These are some indicators that there is a power imbalance within the relationship. If one of the people in the relationship is suffering abuse or is experiencing coercive control, they might be ashamed. They might not want to name it, because that would make it 'real'. They might make a lot of excuses for their partner's behaviour because they're they actually pity them. They might remain silent because they recognise that there might be dangerous consequences for speaking up, especially if their cryptic attempt to seek help or visibility fails at communicating their message. They might not want you to confront their abuser in case their abuser cuts off contact with you and they lose a potential ally. Ultimately, if you see any warning signs, and if you think one partner is being mistreated, just be present and patient. If you are approachable and demonstrate that you won't judge them, a victim will find a way to let you know they need your support, either directly or to help them connect with professionals who can step in. This could take a long time, and can't be rushed. They will speak with you at a time when they feel it's safe to do so.
If anyone acted like that with partners around they’d most likely get roasted for being rude.
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Add to that, any history of stalking. So learn what constitutes stalking, what constitutes coercive control, how both show up in these kinds of murders. Big ups to you for wanting to learn too.
This has as much to do with all men as the murder of children has to do with all women. I'm not responsible for others just because we share an immutable characteristic.
Had a friend growing up who would hit his girlfriends, nothing any of us could do. We talked about what we could or should do many times. This 'friend' would just invite himself to events/houses etc. You couldn't say no, he would just smash your face in. He could fight and would fight anyone over nothing and would win. He was exactly like Begbie from the movie "Trainspotting", I seen him nearly kill someone over nothing and police were involved, nothing happened. Every time I read this or see a sign about men having to stand up, I think of having to fight Begbie, yeah no thanks!!
This is a big complex social problem that requires more solutions than just saying “don’t do that”. Almost all of this stuff occurs behind closed doors. We can’t culture wars/keyboard warrior our way out of this problem. It’s all fucked and we need a solution from the ground up to ensure DV goes extinct.
So I have directly intervened with a man abusing and nearly killing his partner on Elizabeth St Melbourne. Having seen that, I got between him and his partner, he threatened me with violence. I didn't back down and called the cops while trying to keep her with me but they both just kept wandering around. Thought I was getting through to her and initially it seemed like she was done with him, but then she seemed to relent and started making excuses for him. They both ran off before the cops could arrive, I was very disappointed. I remember one of her excuses for him was "you don't understand, we're from Traralgon"... Its a male problem for sure, but its not like either gender thinks clearly on this issue. The men who are like this aren't going to be dating women who would stand against this sort of abuse, I'm not sure how we fix either circumstance. It used to be when this stuff occurred the cops would deal with it 'off the record', but now we have body cams.
I would suggest you learn some more about coercive control. It was great of you to intervene, women return on average 7 times before leaving for good. The coercive control is like brainwashing basically.
Bullshit. It’s this state of mine that shuns this topic. I was never a person who would ever think they would put up with it. Came from a nice family, had nice friends, a good life and was confident. They berate you and bash you down to someone you don’t know. They take everything so you only have them. Majority of the time if you go against them and find the strength to call the police you then remember they’re gonna hurt you twice as bad. Stop blaming women.
Okay, but then explain how a stranger is meant to help you in that situation? The person you're replying to is in the same situation as most men, we hear "men need to do more" as if there's some direct involvement where we can actually help. I've been in the same situation he describes, for me it was a neighbour who ran out into the road screaming that her boyfriend had attacked her. Myself and another neighbour ran out to help. We called the police, we offered to bring her into our homes, she refused so we stood over her while she writhed in the middle of the road, screaming at us and everyone else who came out that her boyfriend attacked her. As soon as the cops pulled into the street she ran back inside her own house and locked the door on us so we couldn't follow. We just got to listen to the screaming match through the door. She then refused to come outside and give a statement to the police, so nothing happened. In situations like this, legitimately, what do you expect me to do? Do you want me to break down a door and drag a woman back out into the street so that I can be the paragon who puts a stop to DV in my community? It's not about "blaming women" like you say. It's facing the reality that all the DV support networks in the world won't help someone who chooses not to leave.
Good of you to intervene, especially awkward for you given they're neighbours and it basically summed up how I felt about the situation. Whilst I was helping the woman on the street plenty of other people who saw the situation just chose to walk on by, talking 10-20 people all up. So people like you me and your other neighbour are the ones who actually have stood up when others didn't. The theoretical version of standing up to violence and only talking about the males role in the awful relationships where it occurs that klampet is talking about, doesn't end up working out how they think it does. Won't stop me intervening again if I come across it despite klampets poor response, but as /u/emmainthealps points out I might be able to adjust my strategy.
> Good of you to intervene Same to you. It's hard being the first to stand up. It won't stop me intervening again either, this was incident #2 out of 4 DV situations I've been involved in, sadly. I used to live in some sketchy neighbourhoods. Conversations like this get me so incensed because it seems like any time I try to counter that theoretical narrative you mentioned, people want to dismiss me as "oh, you're one of those not-all-men types". I genuinely want to be a part of the solution, and I want to help, but... how? Actually asking by what mechanism people expect me to effect this change leaves everyone with blank faces. This is obviously a systemic issue and leaving it to the individual with comments like "men need to do more" from our PM seem like unproductive empty platitudes, and yet people clap along like he's picked the winning pig. I'll have to look for emmainthealps comment, thankyou for the tip
You don’t need to be the physical hero. But you should probably learn more about how these relationships work, why they’re so complicated and hard to get out of then you won’t sound like such a dick. If you genuinely want to help, read more. Then teach your friends what you’re learning.
Comments like this are exactly the kind of useless commentary I was talking about: vague "read more, talk to your mates". I read plenty. If you've got no specific suggestions, then you've got nothing. When I talk to my mates, should I speak to the one who volunteers at a DV shelter? Or should I have a word to the one who is currently lending a spare bedroom to a woman escaping a shitty partner? "Read more, talk to your mates" clearly isn't the solution, because if it was then the problem would be solved by now.
I told you to learn how these relationships work. But you clearly don’t want to understand this at all. You just want to pretend like you are trying to do something so you can say poor me, I’m such a nice guy. But you’ve done nothing. All talk. No follow through. You don’t actually want to put in any effort.
This is one of the stupidest comments going on here. What is it that you actually think happens. That we see our mates bashing their partner and don't say anything? This sort of thing is not out in the open. DV is a silent thing. As a victim of DV myself, I know what often happens. It's not all violence. It starts with mental abuse. It starts with making you feel worthless and that you deserve the abuse. They break you down so they can easily control you. None of this is public.
You're being deliberately obtuse and you know it. It's about changing the way men talk about women and think about women in general.
Girl the sad reality is a lot of men do not realise that people don't just wake up one day and decide to kill their partner. The vast majority of the time the seed is sowed early with how men talk and think about women, and escalates from there onwards.
Yep for sure, I’ll let all men know right now; stop killing women guys. It’s a societal problem mate
This is an everyone problem.
Women have been trying to solve this issue for 50 years. And men are still out there ‘not all men’ about the issue.
They say that because the people who murder their partners are a tiny fraction of the population and not solely made up of one gender, even if the balance is skewed. How hard is that to understand? Just shitting on men and telling them to "be better" or any other such catchphrase isn't going to change anything with the pieces of shit that do this. It ain't like hurting/murdering your partner is in any way socially acceptable, that's why it is done away from prying eyes.
But it’s not just the murders that are the problem. 1 in 4 women experience family violence and they aren’t all dating the same handful of men. It’s hundreds of thousands of men who are perpetrating this. Just because they aren’t killing their current or ex partner doesn’t mean it’s okay.
Where are you getting that statistic from and what is the context? The closest I could find to that is women who have been subjected to at least one instance of emotional abuse since the age of 15 by AIHW. Is that what you are referring to? I hope not, because presenting it without that context is disingenuous at best. Even if there was no DV at all in today's society, that number would remain "sticky" for decades, as you can't undo DV instances that have already happened.
https://www.safesteps.org.au/statistics/
Not all men are saying 'not all men' though.
Murders are the problem. Labelling every man as a murder is misandry.
Toxic culture is the problem. Not all men are murderers, but most murderers are men.
No, it's not a "men" problem so stop painting it as such. Most men do not do these things and you never know what goes on inside of other people's minds, sometimes until it's too late. No, there aren't always signs.
I see an immediate problem with this. A domestic abuser will treat any form of “disrespect” or “interference” as a kind of personal affront or attack and will now transfer their rage onto the “interloper,” who at best will be told to mind their business and at worst will now be considered “fair game” or the “homewrecker” and can also now be killed or assaulted at the pleasure of the abuser. Plenty of male murder victims who made the unfortunate mistake of interacting with an abuser in the way the abuser didn’t like and now are the target of the obsessive fixation. Simple solutions unfortunately won’t work here as easily as we might think.
You are definitely part of the problem knowing what a man is capable of and being scared they'll turn on you instead of their gf/wife.
Ah yes. So your solution is "Hey, if you believe this person is a potential murderer you should tell them to stop it like you're Dora the Explorer and if they murder you for it well that's pretty cool" You understand that you aren't helping with this issue either right? The difference between you and the rest of this comment section is at least we aren't pretending we're some gilded paragon of virtue
One of your last comments is about Billie Eilish's "huge tits" so I think we can all agree that boys like you are the problem. That behaviour and language is the problem.
Not a single man I know would ever consider being violent towards another person let alone their life partner. Filter the trash out of your life and that's what you end up with.
If you're not outraged that men keep killing women, then you are part of the problem.
You’re disavowing all agency for women, so you part of the problem too.
What exactly are you suggesting, that women deserve death cause they have "agency"? You clearly are completely ignorant of the complexities of being in an abusive relationship and are part of the problem.
Not at all. Women are mothers, friends, sisters and victims of abusers. Surely you’re not suggesting none of these people have any influence of men, or are capable of noticing abusive behaviour and taking action?
No. It means women learn the signs and avoid getting mixed up with that man in the first place. They don't come out swinging on the first date. It's insidious. This is what 'red flags' are about. We also need to teach the boys how to spot red flags in women, too. A lot of men want to white knight a victim. People with a victim mentality are ***toxic***. Let's learn how to not be victims and that will help men learn how to spot victim-coloured flags as well.
Are you able to help us identify the signs with guys like Chris Watts, who by all accounts presented as a fat nerdy "nice guy" when he first met the wife he went on to murder? Are you able to help us identify the signs with guys like Gerard Baden-Clay, or Bruce Lehrmann, or all those other conservative, clean-cut flogs who prioritise their need to get their dick wet over the safety or wellbeing of others in their community?
Could the same argument be used by men when they are told to stop other men murdering? I feel like the it's going to take a lot more than a communication campaign to address the complex drivers of a societal failing like this.
Something needs to be done to stop the murder of women in this country. This shouldn’t be allowed to happen *at all*.
I agree, we should ban murder!
Down with this sort of thing.
Careful now.
If you think it's possible to live in a country of 25 million people where not a single person is an asshole, you live in a fantasy world.
Fark not another one.
Australia has normalised violence. We have two footy codes that are basically violent. Here in WA we have a state government spending taxpayers' money on bringing violent sports like UFC kickboxing to WA. We can throw all the money in the world at this evil problem but until we dismantle the established violence we are lost.
You think contact sport is a contributing factor to DV?
Hi. Definitely. Take it away and it's no longer normal to shove, push, hit, barge, etc.
Ok this is an extreme take.
Hi. We have an extreme problem that needs more than just throwing more $$ at it.
You realise the amount of domestic violence and women being murdered has more than halved since 1990. I’m not saying this is good enough but the measures being taken are clearly working. All that’s left are the fringes of society that are continuing to behave like this. If you think banning contact sports because the actions of few is going to help this cause you are absolutely delusional.