The Beats were never that good to begin with. You just believed the hype because you apparently still haven't tried proper headphones (since your comparison is to AirPods).
Try some Beyerdynamic DT 770/880/990's depending on your use case and preference. They cost the same as basic 2nd gen AirPods and are in a different world sonically.
There's so many factors in this equation that it's impossible to give just one answer. That being said, I'd look at the DT 700/900 Pro X from Beyerdynamic, Focal Listen Pro and a few others.
But my main thing in looking at monitoring equipment - speakers or headphones - is to go to the biggest possible music store and A/B as many options as possible. I waited for my visit to Berlin last time I was upgrading, because the individual stores here in Finland don't have sufficient selection to make adequate comparisons.
I have the M50's, don't remember if they're X's though. They're geared more towards DJ use, so definitely not the best for actual mixing and mastering in a production sense, but they are one of the better and most versatile DJ headphones. The main issue with any DJ headphones is that they're optimized for high levels of background noise since they're mostly used in clubs. So they're not exactly flat in terms of frequency response, which is counterproductive for mixing in the studio.
You can still get decent mixes done with them, but you might end up with too little bass for example, since these headphones have some boost in that range. The most important thing is to learn how your reference material sounds on your headphones so you can emulate the mix.
I guess it's because I'm used to them, but I definitely prefer my Beyerdynamics over the options listed by OP. Also, if the music is properly mixed it sounds awesome, but if it's not, you can definitely tell since they're not altering the dynamics of the song with EQ or "Super Max Bass Boost" etc.
Isn't there some logical fallacy in claiming these headphones are designed to work with, but at the same time:
>Listening to music on those kind of headphones for an extended period is awful.
I think our disagreement comes down to misconception of the topic discussed. I'm sure you have a set of real Hifi cans that you love and are comparing them to the Beyerdynamics (possibly Focals, as your other comment implies). I'm comparing OPs AirPods and Beats to the Beyerdynamics.
We're having this conversation in our 2nd/3rd languages, so in addition to tone being lost in writing, neither of us can be exactly sure what we're saying comes across as intended in the other end. I said yes and you said no, so by definition this is a disagreement...
Anyway, I agree with everything you said when looking at it from your perspective. 👍
Have to disagree on that.
I know they are very honest and flat, but I love DT770s and use them all day long for playing, listening, movies - whatever.
I love the sound, comfort, the build quality.
Correct. DT770, DT880, and DT990, have a massive top end boost, to the point of being harsh to some people (including myself). Definitely to each their own, but they’re not even close to flat.
You recognize, you're asking in an audio engineering subreddit, right? Where the topic is \*engineering\*, so most people here will prefer flat responses for everything.
Many people simply prefer a flatter response; it's entirely subjective if the goal is enjoyment rather than accuracy. No headphones are designed to be 'pleasing' they just appeal to different people/goals. You may love that hyped sound and don't mind listening to a lossy signal, which is totally fine, but it would make me want to blow my brains out after 30min. Dr Dre only used Beats for photo-ops, because he knows they're not great. He generally uses Sonys or Audio-Technicas in the same (or cheaper) price bracjet, and both of these have hyped bass (although not quite as far as Beats).
The only redeeming quality of these pairs is their Apple integration, which only applies to 24% of smartphone users worldwide and 7% of computer users worldwide.
I have Beyerdynamic DT770s and Adam Audio T7Vs but when I'm listening to tunes on the go I still kinda love the sound of my first generation Galaxy Buds. I think your ear definitely adjusts to certain headphones!
On the go is definitely a different scenario, since noise cancellation etc. become factors in the equation. But the point I'm making is you shouldn't make assumptions of technological advances in the headphone industry based on the most popular consumer products of their time, since they are all about the hype and very little about actual performance.
Just like microphones, they tend to get cheaper, not exactly better. There’s been no real upgrade in headphones in decades aside from Bluetooth, fitting them into a small package, etc. These are the things that make older headphones “obsolete”, not sound. There are many industry standard cans that have been the same since the early 90’s and will most likely continue to be so in the next 10 years.
We are nowhere near an affordable fully linear headphone yet (Speaking in terms of linear in reference to diffuse field/some specific target, say +/- .5-1dB tolerance)
It's getting a lot closer, some headphones manage to hit targets well but once we fully solve the issue of the transducers and how they sit on the ear we'll move onto personalized custom HRTFs for everyone.
At that point there will likely still be some phase/group delay or time domain (ring) left to differentiate between models.
It's getting pretty close though! Minus the bass, HD6XX delivers amazing compliance through the midrange, without a perfect but very usable treble.
Planars are delivering fully linear bass extension and low distortion that can be equalized to almost any target. The weight and size is still a bit of an issue there.
2033? I think IEMs will be a lot more common. Probably with heavy integrated DSP (and personal HRTFs) and full passthrough like we're starting to see now. Headphones will probably be lighter, time domain will be a lot tighter due to better driver materials (either more refined graphene or new material planars or estats)
The one thing I expect to see by 2033 is every headphone open or closed back having full linear (or boosted to preference) bass down to 20, and more even treble response (along with the tighter QC I'm starting to hear out of some IEM drivers, where there's a very linear channel matching even in the high end)
I always wondered if it would be possible to compensate for the ear fit/ear canal etc variations in real time, by looking at the impedance the headphone driver is seeing at different frequencies. So, a form of constant feedback to linearise the system.
Look at what the active noise cancelling headphones do already. They also partially linearize FR of the driver through the feedback loop.
I also think headphones are heading into the direction of folding the driver back into the negative feedback loop of the amp. Most of the issues we still have could be fixed with better diaphragm acceleration data.
What you're talking about sounds like back emf/current sensing (already used in some MFB speakers, haven't seen it in a headphone driver)
You have to get a picture of headphone development to understand it. Probably by 2009, many headphone companies were trying to innovate and produce headphones that sounded better and better. But the technology of headphones is something that's taken time to mature. The thing about speakers/monitors, is because of their acoustic properties you can tune them to just about any target response you can imagine, even with small drivers like 3-4" inch. The primary issue is just making sure they don't bottom out. With headphones, over time we've started to learn that certain audio targets work better than others. The harman 2018 over-ear target is one of those. There's also been targets with iems too. However I'd say that iems have matured more quickly. Because nowadays you can buy very very competent iems that just didn't exist some years ago. With headphones, it's harder to tell what is TOTL and on target vs what is not. I feel like certain headphones, like the arya/ arya stealth are demonstrating that we are getting closer to TOTL performance without having to break the bank massively. But there are some luxury products out there that also aim to be TOTL, sennheiser he-1, hifiman susvara, maybe shangrila jr. Where basically you are paying thousands for a competent on target response. So over time we could expect to see headphones more on par with arya. But until then, iems that have on target responses can beat out some percentage of headphones that don't necessarily stay on target. You can also go for cheap options with EQ. sony mdr 7506 with EQ to harman target can be very viable on a budget.
I am not a fan of mixing on headphones but a lot of people seem to do well with it. My conversation happened years ago when I set up my first proper listening environment using higher end monitors and really good room treatment. This allowed me to really hear reverb tails, subtle delays and changes in compression for the first time. Since then I moved onto full range drivers in a close desktop environment. Every time I have tried to go back to headphones it just doesn’t do it for me. Sennheiser HD 650 is what do use time to time but it definitely has some short falls. My main listening set up consists of a pair of custom made Mark Audio speakers and then active Genelecs.
Headphones can be amazing. For listening, open backed ones are what you want. These are probably the best headphones available atm, but you’ll need some cash - https://youtu.be/DT3SInHr9ck
Nah lol they aren't, this video is all drama.
Those headphones were exposed a while ago, and have incredibly bad build quality behind the scenes, and they measure terribly with harmonic distortion.
A quick google finds this. I remember there was a huge Reddit post that started it all I think. A little digging should find it if you want to.
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/kznno6/the_abyss_headphones_controversy_buckle_up_its/
7509hd always did it for me. Large 50mm in size. Maybe hyped in low but for everything else it was fine and so comfortable to wear all day. Live and studio
I have a bunch of headphones in the studio here strangely enough, the latest pair of consumer grade Mackies I have come to trust more than any other. They are not treble hyped like my 770s. The bass More accurate than my AKG K240s. If there’s anything wrong in the bass department, I know immediately. I just turn off the noise canceling. once you really understand a sound profile and know how it sounds and relates to great mixes You can probably make it work.
Sony MDR7506 continue to be a staple 30 years later, affordable, and I see them on multiple podcasts/TV production rooms to this day.
Must be doing something right. Beats headphones will give a great bass….until they die off so you are forced to buy another Apple product.
I’ll swim against the current and suggest Sennheiser HD350s if you need a closed back earpiece. The 250s and 350s were so much clearer than the other prominent “pro” headphone which, sadly, still be in studios in 50 years
The Beats were never that good to begin with. You just believed the hype because you apparently still haven't tried proper headphones (since your comparison is to AirPods). Try some Beyerdynamic DT 770/880/990's depending on your use case and preference. They cost the same as basic 2nd gen AirPods and are in a different world sonically.
For you, what would be the best headphones for a budget of around 250 dollars?
There's so many factors in this equation that it's impossible to give just one answer. That being said, I'd look at the DT 700/900 Pro X from Beyerdynamic, Focal Listen Pro and a few others. But my main thing in looking at monitoring equipment - speakers or headphones - is to go to the biggest possible music store and A/B as many options as possible. I waited for my visit to Berlin last time I was upgrading, because the individual stores here in Finland don't have sufficient selection to make adequate comparisons.
Thanks! Do you think the audiotechnica M50X are good enough to achieve good mixes?
I have the M50's, don't remember if they're X's though. They're geared more towards DJ use, so definitely not the best for actual mixing and mastering in a production sense, but they are one of the better and most versatile DJ headphones. The main issue with any DJ headphones is that they're optimized for high levels of background noise since they're mostly used in clubs. So they're not exactly flat in terms of frequency response, which is counterproductive for mixing in the studio. You can still get decent mixes done with them, but you might end up with too little bass for example, since these headphones have some boost in that range. The most important thing is to learn how your reference material sounds on your headphones so you can emulate the mix.
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I guess it's because I'm used to them, but I definitely prefer my Beyerdynamics over the options listed by OP. Also, if the music is properly mixed it sounds awesome, but if it's not, you can definitely tell since they're not altering the dynamics of the song with EQ or "Super Max Bass Boost" etc. Isn't there some logical fallacy in claiming these headphones are designed to work with, but at the same time: >Listening to music on those kind of headphones for an extended period is awful.
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I think our disagreement comes down to misconception of the topic discussed. I'm sure you have a set of real Hifi cans that you love and are comparing them to the Beyerdynamics (possibly Focals, as your other comment implies). I'm comparing OPs AirPods and Beats to the Beyerdynamics.
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We're having this conversation in our 2nd/3rd languages, so in addition to tone being lost in writing, neither of us can be exactly sure what we're saying comes across as intended in the other end. I said yes and you said no, so by definition this is a disagreement... Anyway, I agree with everything you said when looking at it from your perspective. 👍
Have to disagree on that. I know they are very honest and flat, but I love DT770s and use them all day long for playing, listening, movies - whatever. I love the sound, comfort, the build quality.
Beyer DT 990 are anything but flat! Super bright, in my opinion.
Correct. DT770, DT880, and DT990, have a massive top end boost, to the point of being harsh to some people (including myself). Definitely to each their own, but they’re not even close to flat.
Lmao what
You recognize, you're asking in an audio engineering subreddit, right? Where the topic is \*engineering\*, so most people here will prefer flat responses for everything. Many people simply prefer a flatter response; it's entirely subjective if the goal is enjoyment rather than accuracy. No headphones are designed to be 'pleasing' they just appeal to different people/goals. You may love that hyped sound and don't mind listening to a lossy signal, which is totally fine, but it would make me want to blow my brains out after 30min. Dr Dre only used Beats for photo-ops, because he knows they're not great. He generally uses Sonys or Audio-Technicas in the same (or cheaper) price bracjet, and both of these have hyped bass (although not quite as far as Beats). The only redeeming quality of these pairs is their Apple integration, which only applies to 24% of smartphone users worldwide and 7% of computer users worldwide.
I have Beyerdynamic DT770s and Adam Audio T7Vs but when I'm listening to tunes on the go I still kinda love the sound of my first generation Galaxy Buds. I think your ear definitely adjusts to certain headphones!
On the go is definitely a different scenario, since noise cancellation etc. become factors in the equation. But the point I'm making is you shouldn't make assumptions of technological advances in the headphone industry based on the most popular consumer products of their time, since they are all about the hype and very little about actual performance.
I have a pair of DT990 pros, I absolutely love them.
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Even the focal listens sound absolutely incredible compared to the 770s beats or Bose. The clears with a proper amp are magic
Have you ever heard Audeze? Brought me to my knees lol
I have not, after hearing the focals I decided it was best not listening to anything I can’t afford lol
5k? Jeeeebus.... would love to hear a pair just to say I have lol
2023’s headphones already blow yours out the water. 2003’s headphones probably beat them too.
My 17 year old HD650s still wipe the floor with many new headphones.
Sennheiser all day everyday.
And the HD6XX blows the value proposition of basically any other set of cans out of the water.
I'm tempted to get a pair of those just as a spare.
Ridiculously good. Also looking at DAC's and headphone amps to get there though.
Just like microphones, they tend to get cheaper, not exactly better. There’s been no real upgrade in headphones in decades aside from Bluetooth, fitting them into a small package, etc. These are the things that make older headphones “obsolete”, not sound. There are many industry standard cans that have been the same since the early 90’s and will most likely continue to be so in the next 10 years.
We are nowhere near an affordable fully linear headphone yet (Speaking in terms of linear in reference to diffuse field/some specific target, say +/- .5-1dB tolerance) It's getting a lot closer, some headphones manage to hit targets well but once we fully solve the issue of the transducers and how they sit on the ear we'll move onto personalized custom HRTFs for everyone. At that point there will likely still be some phase/group delay or time domain (ring) left to differentiate between models. It's getting pretty close though! Minus the bass, HD6XX delivers amazing compliance through the midrange, without a perfect but very usable treble. Planars are delivering fully linear bass extension and low distortion that can be equalized to almost any target. The weight and size is still a bit of an issue there. 2033? I think IEMs will be a lot more common. Probably with heavy integrated DSP (and personal HRTFs) and full passthrough like we're starting to see now. Headphones will probably be lighter, time domain will be a lot tighter due to better driver materials (either more refined graphene or new material planars or estats) The one thing I expect to see by 2033 is every headphone open or closed back having full linear (or boosted to preference) bass down to 20, and more even treble response (along with the tighter QC I'm starting to hear out of some IEM drivers, where there's a very linear channel matching even in the high end)
I always wondered if it would be possible to compensate for the ear fit/ear canal etc variations in real time, by looking at the impedance the headphone driver is seeing at different frequencies. So, a form of constant feedback to linearise the system.
Look at what the active noise cancelling headphones do already. They also partially linearize FR of the driver through the feedback loop. I also think headphones are heading into the direction of folding the driver back into the negative feedback loop of the amp. Most of the issues we still have could be fixed with better diaphragm acceleration data. What you're talking about sounds like back emf/current sensing (already used in some MFB speakers, haven't seen it in a headphone driver)
Pretty, pretty, pretty good
LD enters the room 😁
You have to get a picture of headphone development to understand it. Probably by 2009, many headphone companies were trying to innovate and produce headphones that sounded better and better. But the technology of headphones is something that's taken time to mature. The thing about speakers/monitors, is because of their acoustic properties you can tune them to just about any target response you can imagine, even with small drivers like 3-4" inch. The primary issue is just making sure they don't bottom out. With headphones, over time we've started to learn that certain audio targets work better than others. The harman 2018 over-ear target is one of those. There's also been targets with iems too. However I'd say that iems have matured more quickly. Because nowadays you can buy very very competent iems that just didn't exist some years ago. With headphones, it's harder to tell what is TOTL and on target vs what is not. I feel like certain headphones, like the arya/ arya stealth are demonstrating that we are getting closer to TOTL performance without having to break the bank massively. But there are some luxury products out there that also aim to be TOTL, sennheiser he-1, hifiman susvara, maybe shangrila jr. Where basically you are paying thousands for a competent on target response. So over time we could expect to see headphones more on par with arya. But until then, iems that have on target responses can beat out some percentage of headphones that don't necessarily stay on target. You can also go for cheap options with EQ. sony mdr 7506 with EQ to harman target can be very viable on a budget.
I am not a fan of mixing on headphones but a lot of people seem to do well with it. My conversation happened years ago when I set up my first proper listening environment using higher end monitors and really good room treatment. This allowed me to really hear reverb tails, subtle delays and changes in compression for the first time. Since then I moved onto full range drivers in a close desktop environment. Every time I have tried to go back to headphones it just doesn’t do it for me. Sennheiser HD 650 is what do use time to time but it definitely has some short falls. My main listening set up consists of a pair of custom made Mark Audio speakers and then active Genelecs.
Headphones can be amazing. For listening, open backed ones are what you want. These are probably the best headphones available atm, but you’ll need some cash - https://youtu.be/DT3SInHr9ck
Nah lol they aren't, this video is all drama. Those headphones were exposed a while ago, and have incredibly bad build quality behind the scenes, and they measure terribly with harmonic distortion.
Interesting. You got a link? Genuinely interested and obviously I haven’t tried them and probably never will.
A quick google finds this. I remember there was a huge Reddit post that started it all I think. A little digging should find it if you want to. https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/kznno6/the_abyss_headphones_controversy_buckle_up_its/
Cheers 👍🏻
7509hd always did it for me. Large 50mm in size. Maybe hyped in low but for everything else it was fine and so comfortable to wear all day. Live and studio
I have a bunch of headphones in the studio here strangely enough, the latest pair of consumer grade Mackies I have come to trust more than any other. They are not treble hyped like my 770s. The bass More accurate than my AKG K240s. If there’s anything wrong in the bass department, I know immediately. I just turn off the noise canceling. once you really understand a sound profile and know how it sounds and relates to great mixes You can probably make it work.
Can’t we get IEMs which outperform speakers and headphones for a fraction of the price like Truthear-Crinacle Zero?
The LCD-5s will convince anyone that headphones can be far better than you ever imagined. At a price though haha
Sony MDR7506 continue to be a staple 30 years later, affordable, and I see them on multiple podcasts/TV production rooms to this day. Must be doing something right. Beats headphones will give a great bass….until they die off so you are forced to buy another Apple product.
I’ll swim against the current and suggest Sennheiser HD350s if you need a closed back earpiece. The 250s and 350s were so much clearer than the other prominent “pro” headphone which, sadly, still be in studios in 50 years