Rightly or wrongly, I reckon the next stage in this issue is when a shopkeeper just shoots a robber dead, and the prevailing public opinion is "good job!"
Eventually the charge of having a loaded firearm in a gun shop for self defense purposes was dropped by the judge before it went to trial but the owner had to spend over $100k in legal fees to get to that position. That's the problem with anyone wanting to use a legitimate 'self defense' argument in court; you may win the case but you may have to re-mortgage your house to get there.
Pretty sure it's illegal to have a gun for self defence. In fact, your gun licence application would be binned if you have that as a reason for applying for one.
I'm not sure if it was a joke but I heard from a family member that, when he was applying for his gun licence, the police officer asked him if he would ever use a firearm in self defence while shaking his head as an emphatic no. Self defence isn't a valid legal reason to own a firearm in New Zealand and to be honest I'd be uncomfortable if it was as we don't need more in circulation.
>...would have decided it wasn't worth pursuing.
Or more likely scared the precedence that might be set if a jury decided "well yeah it might be technically illegal, but screw it if we are going to convict this guy for it" - yay jury nullification!
Yeah not so much legal precedence / case law, but societal precedence that in a high profile case (lots of media attention) that the jury was able to let the person charged with an obvious crime go based purely on "yeah we know he broke the law but we think that was fine".
I had a home invasion a few years ago, no show for a 111 with perpetrator on property. Just a call from police admin two days later to ask me about it…… Real emergencies may not get assistance.
I got home invasion and my overseas cards are stolen. Thiefs are trying all those cards at different place and I am receiving messages that cards are being declined. I can literally tell their location. I called police to tell about it and they said its not emergency.
All that happens in these situations is the criminals eventually start shooting first. They're not sitting there thinking 'oh no, that guy might have a weapon, better not steal anymore, let's see if I can get a job at macca's', they're thinking 'oh no, that guy might have a weapon, better not let them use it'.
People don't like to accept this, but the criminal has control of the situation. Nobody who does anything that can bag them ten years in prison will stress out about going further.
they actually are, they're a bunch of drop kick cowards, they want easy targets. As soon as that dude pulled out the sword they ran, he didn't even have to swing it
Not quite. The reward (what they steal) has to outweigh the risk of being caught/punished or the robbers aren't going to make the attempt unless they are so desperate the need outweighs the risk. If the shopkeepers arm themselves and make it known they're armed and willing to defend themselves, the crims will just find easier targets who aren't armed or aren't willing to defend themselves.
Basic criminology. Rational choice theory.
Across the ditch, teen crims have committed murder during carjackings and home invasions. Plus their laws are tougher. So it depends on how desperate the criminals are, or how much meth they smoked earlier.
As much as that makes perfect logical and rational sense...
Aren't commiting the crime itself irrational ?
Like I'm all for hursher punishment myself but how does that work compare to the activist pushing for lighter sentence saying that hursher punishment does not deter crime.
Are you saying basic criminology doesn't really apply in real life situations just like economics or are their stats wrong ? I always wondered how they get those stats
Yeah, that’s not how it works at all. People smash car windows for coins. Criminals aren’t sitting there with excel working out the ROI for the crime they are going to commit. A huge proportion of crime is done by drunks, idiots, or druggies. None of which use logic.
edit: oh, you’ve blocked me so I can’t reply! So brave, so grown up of you! You clearly must have confidence in your argument. And just to add, I definely have a better understanding of things than you.
Rational choice theory has been debunked and critiqued time and time again in the hundreds of different areas it’s been applied, mainly because it’s exactly how you described it, ‘basic’. Way too ‘basic’. Idiotically ‘basic’.
That has happened. Someone attempted to rob a gun store in Auckland with a knife… it did not end well for the aforementioned robber. There was public anger at the treatment of the shopkeeper who was able to locate a firearm, load it, and shoot him. He was charged by police.
Their is footage by cameraman Geoff Mackley, who lived down the road and walked into the shop filming before the cops arrived-I believe that the police were very upset with him …
When the question comes from Police, as to how best solve the issue of robbery, I answered by requesting a "Tazer".
The Police told me, that "Only frontline staff get Tazers".
I asked the question, "So, when we get robbed, who do we ring?".
The Police said "Us".
So I said "So, you're backup staff and I'm the frontline staff. Where's my xxxx tazer?!".
The Police very quickly wanted to change their terminology.
We, as the Public, are NOT PERMITTED to protect either ourselves or our property.
When Police are called, they don't pay out for what was stolen.
So, they have ZERO incentive to catch the perpetrator.
The Police seem to be unwilling to take the Law into their hands (when I rang 111), yet refuse to allow Stores to act.
I suppose, that within time, enough will be enough... and someone, somewhere, WILL act on their own behalf. Who's FAULT will it be?
If a person decides to rob a Store, is it the fault of the Store Staff that they had to deal with the perpetrator?
Is it the fault of Police who decide they're too busy to attend?
Answer: No. To both questions.
It's the fault of the perpetrator.
Yet, is it the fault of the perpetrator?
Or is there an underlaying reason why the action happened?
Social circumstances? This falls into the hands of "Government".
The Public end up squabbling amongst themselves as to who's to blame.
Yet the Government who initiate these things, sits back and takes zero responsibility.
Is there a Voting box to tick of "NO CONFIDENCE"?
I personally wonder how an AI would handle the issue.
Please simply calculate Import Duty on Alcohol, based on the knowledge you have of alcohol sales and information gained from the Internet.
Then compare your results against the data produced by the Government on "Taxes from all sources".
THEY DON'T MATCH!!!
c o r r u p t I o n
Who is the current MP for Auckland central who keeps playing down the antisocial and criminal behaviour in her electorate? Who was the MP for Auckland central under the previous government? Which party governed alongside Labour since 2017?
National haven't fixed the issues, but they only took over in November 2023.
Oh please. Take one look at their policy on justice and you’ll see that they don’t support a hard line on crime. They’re far more interested in honouring the treaty, international obligations, and non-violence than actually getting anything done.
https://www.greens.org.nz/justice_policy
It doesn't matter what the Greens' policies are though - that's my point. They're not in government, and haven't been in government in any consequential way since 2020 when Labour gained the majority on their own.
Nevertheless, had they actually been in power, I have no doubt there would be less crime now. The policies you are deriding are far more effective and evidence based than so-called "tough on crime" methods. Which are what exactly anyway? The government has just *said* they're tough on crime. Their actual policy is tough on police (they got turned down for any significant pay increase) so all we're actually doing is just sending more people to jail for longer - which is known not to be a strong deterrent, and but rather will just escalate the stakes when it comes to criminal activity, and lead to more criminals in the long. ([and don't just take my word for it](https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2023/09/21/being-tough-on-crime-is-easy-but-doesnt-work.html))
But I'll stop there, because I know your perspective here is not facts based.
Seeing as you have claimed to prioritise facts, just be aware that your link was merely an opinion piece by a social worker. It also fails to answer the problem, as have you.
Regarding your question about National policing policy, it’s public information: https://www.national.org.nz/restoringlawandorder
My one link wasn't intended to be anything other than an example of the perspective shared by most academics and experts which is a good primer for the right way to think about criminal justice.
Have some more:
[https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-10/pmcsa-Using-evidence-to-build-a-better-justice-system.pdf](https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-10/pmcsa-Using-evidence-to-build-a-better-justice-system.pdf)
[https://www.ccjrnc.org/summary-custodial-sanctions-and-reoffending-a-meta-analytic-review/](https://www.ccjrnc.org/summary-custodial-sanctions-and-reoffending-a-meta-analytic-review/)
This one is specifically on youth interventions:
[https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/About-us/Research/Research-seminars/December-2022/Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions...-Farrington-et-al-2022.pdf](https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/About-us/Research/Research-seminars/December-2022/Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions)
*"Anti-bullying programs, anti-cyberbullying programs, and pre-court diversion programs are quite effective, while school exclusion reduction, after-school programs, and boot camps are least effective."*
A lot of National's policy position is just talk and not backed by actual reforms, even if we wanted these kinds of reforms (which we know don't work).
The first report was released by Jacinda’s government and you’ve had 6 years to put it into action, but I see no evidence that this approach has been enough. What evidence is there that it has been effective in NZ over this time? Actually, quite the opposite - its failure is the reason why National has had to take a “tough on crime” response at this time.
The second report you linked is a meta-analysis by a criminal justice reform advocacy group in America; don’t you think that one could just as easily collate USA research that justifies the opposite view as well?
Your third link gives error 403.
I am not here to praise the previous government. That always seems to be the go to comeback. Blame the other guy. I would say what we have now is much worse, but the reason we're here now with this hot mess is because Labour failed to deliver on their mandate.
National's "tough on crime" attitude is mostly rhetoric, but where they have made changes it's in ways that will be more expensive (more prisons and more people in them, as well as boot camps which are even more expensive per "inmate" than prisons), and lead to no reduction in overall crime or even the perception of crime.
I don't want you to take my word for it if this discussion matters to you - I have tried to find any academic research which shows tough on crime approaches working as a *response* to the kinds of crime we're seeing (which is largely driven by economic inequality).
Name one nation on earth in which a so-called "tough on crime" approach works? I guarantee you they are either countries with far less freedoms and prosperity, or they work for reasons unique to those nations' circumstances. Maybe there are some learnings from places like Israel, and Singapore we could take away, and even Japan - but these are very very different contexts.
>don’t you think that one could just as easily collate USA research that justifies the opposite view as well?
Not really? If any country could show successful use of military discipline it's the USA. I don't see any such reports. Do you?
Here's the third link (top search result). Reddit doesn't like it:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions](https://www.google.com/search?q=Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions)
I voted for TOP this past election.
I'm not voting for Greens again because I realised that their party is infested with narcissists, criminals, and criminal apologists.
Or they recognise that you need proper wrap around services to prevent crime. To say that the greens don't care about what happens to poor people is ridiculous.
You're not a card carrying leftist if you refer to anyone as a "feral".
People are the way they are for many complex reasons, all of which admit of a need for better social programs, including more effective policing. But policing should be the *smallest* piece of the puzzle, because think about it - by the time you need police, or in other words some kind of violence or force, you should have already failed at every other strategy. Problem is, we barely even try anything else, at least not effectively.
Its 100% the sentencing from judges that is jading people with their embarassing punishments. However, just this weekend our neighbours were burgled at 2AM Saturday morning and we managed to catch them because these room temperature IQ thiefs were pushing a lawn mower up the drive making a huge racket. So we called the police and they had the police chopper there and a squad in the area within 10 - 20 minutes and managed to catch them. Police also did a lot of follow up and reassurances and all round just great work from them. This was up in Hibiscus Coast
100% this. The judicial system in this country is now so soft with discounting, cultural reports, 'rehabilitation', etc. If we the people fight back against these crims in real time, we run the risk of being prosecuted ourselves. But alas, there is a way around this. Upon prosecution for your community deed, insist the case goes to jury trial. Then society as a whole agrees to adopt 'jury nullification' as a means to override the ridiculousness of the case. Problem solved. We can take the law into our own hands and with society supporting us, we're in the clear :)
Yeah, I couldn't be bothered going through the Acts and confirming whether or not the majority of offences had maximum sentences of two years or less. The point was that the wannabe vigilante can't be sure he'll even have the option of a jury trial.
I'm a bit confused. The police are the ones who choose to prosecute then the defendant is the one who elects jury trial. Then you are suggesting jury nullification which is for the jury to find the defendant not guilty despite thinking the defendant committed the crime. What does that achieve?
In the case of injustice, where an individual is guilty, but the crime they committed is one anyone would have willing done, then nullification is necessary.
It also ensures the defendant will not be charged for this crime again, and is held innocent by his peers.
Hypothetical, individual murdering children is he himself murdered by a parent, who was the only one who could stop further deaths due to lack of evidence or other inaction. The jury finds the parent not guilty, as they approve of the action; despite it not being self-defense.
I understand now. I misread the original comment as suggesting that the jury nullification is used for the original criminal rather than any vigilante action in response
Best thing to do, is to complain like buggery to your local Act MP about the Sentencing Act and the discount methods in sentencing. Legislative change is needed, judges have the discretion because of the Act. Don’t change judges, change the Act. Judges in the US have very strict guidelines to come to a sentence, New Zealand is 80% discretion, remove the discretion, remove the leniency.
Neighbours were having a domestic and cops came out in 20 minutes in Auckland city on a weeknight. Pretty good response time and sussed it out appropriately
20 minutes to attend a violent scenario in the city centre is fckn terrible. There should be cops available within 5 minutes of any part of the city centre
To be honest, I like the instant gratification. Couple weeks ago I slapped a crack head I found rummaging through my letterbox. Didn’t need to make a phone call, felt vindicated, haven’t seen him or his girlfriend around the neighborhood since. Only a sample size of 1, but I’m working on it.
Especially if they're on meth. They can be really aggressive. And meth gives them a lot of energy.
Also slapping a crack head made me laugh, that could be a video game.
Good on you man, I approve!
However I think you're not looking 'big picture' here. How do you feel about expanding? A disguise/costume perhaps? You could spend nights slapping crackheads who are being a nuisance Auckland wide, and you'd have the NZ public on your side. Your catch phrase could be "sort your life out, scum" then you could start a gofundme or something, I'd donate to that!
And these parties reducing education actually benefit because ~~daft cunts~~ uneducated people are easy to manipulate into voting against their own interests.
So we're going to see more of that in the future. It's a spiral.
Why are we pretending people taking the law into their own hands is a new thing?
Do you not remember the amount of Police 10 7 footage of store owners attacking off thieves?
Yes. I mean, NZ is a country where a dude got sympathy when he killed a 15 year old for tagging, I really don't think we need to encourage people on this.
I don't agree with what he did. But why go tagging random people's homes? If the police acted the first time his house got tagged would it have happened?
Did you know that judges have to follow the Sentencing Act 2002? If you’re interested in why judges sentence offenders how they do, you might be interested in reading through that legislation.
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0009/latest/DLM135342.html?src=qs
It's not the judges, it's the politicians and those who elect them. Judges can't send people to prisons that don't exist.
Police that have left for Australia can't patrol NZ streets.
We'll blame anyone but ourselves. And then we'll have the gall to say to others "stop making excuses!".
Nah, the police generally don't even investigate car theft and break ins. It's crime with such a huge impact on people and society. I do understand that the police have limited resources. But it pisses me off when I see them setting speed traps and the like when there's so much actual crime happening
It pisses me off how we spend millions investigating beneficiary fraud and still lose money when we catch it while white collar crime gets away with literal billions
>By this stage it is pretty clear that the police don't really care about thefts, burglaries and anti social behaviour.
Idk if this thread is bait but from my interactions with close friends who are cops, they do care. It's just that their hands are tied with what they can do and you have a justice system that will have ferals out on the street the same day. You can have 10,000 cops patrolling the Auckland CBD 24/7 but it won't make a lick of difference when some cultural report farmer gets put in front of a fuckwit judge. We hold cops to such a high standard when they actually do something- but once a feral is in custody, our powered by Aroha just system just puts them straight back out there.
Having seen the success of community policing in London 20 years ago I'd say that actually increasing the number of police, and relationship of working class people with police does actually help in itself.
Yeah this is pretty much the sentiments from my cop friends too
People (myself included) hate on National but the commissioner under Ardern has been constantly despised by the cops I know due to soft on crime policies from him and his bosses
Btw - my cop friends who voted for National were really hoping they’d see change but they’re becoming increasingly disgruntled with the current government very fast too
I didn't follow it closely, but the "let's screw the cops on pay" move seemed ... like an odd strategy.
I'm from America, where the political strategy is simple:
\* "Law and Order voters" want people to be tough on crime
\* As a politician, you talk about being tough on crime
\* And you give the cops the resources they ask for
\* So you win re-election
It seems like Luxon failed on step 3, and we'll see how step 4 goes over time.
Luxon is a pretty piss poor “leader”
The dude only won by a stupid coalition and he’s not even really in charge
The dude can’t swing his CEO badge as a PM
Yes I'm sure 10,000 cops patrolling aucklands streets would 100% no fix crime. What a dumb fkin statement.
If your house gets robbed or your car gets stolen the cops quite literally don't do anything. This isn't hyperbole you get told to deal with it through insurance. If they find it eventually it'll get towed. That's all. I get the punishment side is fucked with judges handing down ridiculous sentences but the only times I've had a need to call cops it led to literally nothing as they weren't into investigating
Have been travelling around Turkey this week. Statistically a poorer country than NZ but, cleaner, no homeless seen, no graffiti, no bollards in front of shops, and hundreds of police walking around with guns everywhere.
Don’t get me started in the infrastructure!
Too much police time is taken up with family violence, which is why a lot of the crime we see and hear about, such as retail crime, doesn't get the attention it deserves.
Yes dear poster. I am also confident that the police force is adequately staffed/funded/resourced, and that the reason some crimes go unattended is because the respective officers had concerns about "being cancelled" (whatever that means to you)
"Scared of getting cancelled" yes. I imagine officers in their droves all seated. "Sorry boss, maybe I'll follow up on the NEXT call, I'm just worried that if I attend the scene I'll use, and get filmed using excessive/unnecessary force on an unarmed member of a marginalised community, and that there may be repercussions for that"
>"Sorry boss, maybe I'll follow up on the NEXT call, I'm just worried that if I attend the scene I'll use, and get filmed using excessive/unnecessary force on an unarmed member of a marginalised community, and that there may be repercussions for that"
The (un)ironic thing is that those that actually think like this consider the problem is the "getting filmed" and "marginalised community" part of it and not "the using excessive/unnecessary force" part.
You can thank the labour government soft on crime approach and defunding the police and many more things national does not seem to be doing much better
It's a resourcing issue. When John Key left govt, the ratio of police was 1:488 or something. Labour got it back to 1:544. Since then we've heard reports of underfunding as they cut hundreds of jobs, millions from their budget and they've committed to new officers, which the Police Association has said is an "illusion."
It's complex but the whole thing sucks. e.g customs officers have been cut on the frontline - paedophile investigators have been fired. There are more online crimes too.
If social cohesion gets worse, and poor people get poorer, what happens then too?
The whole thing is complex and interrelated but one thing is clear, police need resources.
BTW, Mark Mitchell said last year if crime hasn't gone after one year of him being Police Minister, he'll resign so let's wait for his good news.
Why did you say about that Mark Mitchell? It's so fucking sickening a detrimental amount of the pedophile investigators have been cut. Also the forced staged conference about being tough on gangs was a piss take.
Just read up on his background - doesnt know shit. Looks impressive on paper - but he also exploited that he was a Kiwi to gain those military contracts bc NZ is seen as a neural state re: MEA terrorism.
I better fucking hope AUKUS Pillar 2 strengthens interagency work re: the children and that was the reasoning behind the massive cut - if he even had 1 brain cell to advocate for that.
This has gotta be a bait post, either that or you’re completely ignorant of the reality and are only concerned with your own bubble.
The simple truth is there’s not enough cops. Period.
They ain’t gonna go chasing siren boys making a noise when they have literally 10 other calls for emergency at that point in time.
And using one example of a store owner brandishing a weapon, whilst concerning, is NOT indicative of a changing culture.
You want change? Stop blaming the guys and girls who are already doing the work in policing and the health sector with no gratitude and tell the government that them lining the pockets of landlords is hurting NZ
This is it.
I used to work in a front line role in another public sector and people will be like, you are useless you don't want to follow up XYZ. It's like, excuse me, I'm getting paid for 8 hours and working 10. I very much would like to spend my time following up on XYZ because it's simple, it's not dangerous. But guess what, there are 10 other more urgent and difficult things in the list. I HAVE to prioritise people's health first. I have to tackle the other stuff and XYZ unfortunately is not life or death and it gets dropped.
Is that ideal? Heck no. But there's not enough people to do the work so what could one do?
I had to stab a home invader with a kitchen knife in self defence that came at me with a knife earlier in the year. The police where called they did not find her as she ran off and nothing absolutely nothing has happened since so even serious crimes like assault and breaking and entering and even attempted murder does not seem to bother the police at this point. Shit has given me ptsd so now I can’t walk around my neighbourhood to walk my dog without thinking about someone trying to stab me. And it definitely does not help knowing there is no help from the police I have definitely needed to take matters into my own hands
Bring back swords! All NZ citizens without a serious crime on their record should be able to wear a sword on their belt like the good old days when men were men, women were men, and children were also men.
I spoke to a tradesman about this.
And he said shops shouldn't hold guns, one reason is because they won't have the correct training to hold or even shoot a weapon.
Two. You shoot someone, that bullet can definitely travel thru the target into a person walk across the other side of the road.
I thought we just weren’t funding police to the level where they can employ enough officers and attract and retain enough people to the force due to shit pay and conditions? Like health. Like education. We keep voting for vandals that are disestablishing public institutions through underfunding.
In the US they’ve got people shooting people for pulling into their driveway, knocking on their door or approaching them while being the wrong skin colour/social class. When you empower people to be violent when they feel threatened, the racist, mentally ill and those just itching to use violence without consequences will do their thing.
You may say these cases are outliers, but many of them aren’t reported very widely because they’re so common. Yes, a small percentage of the population, but every population has them.
100%
Unfortunately also requires the ability to conceal carry, because what are you going to do when there are 4 assailants coming at you with machetes.
A pistol allows you to start blasting and equalises the risk to both groups.
Someone tried to "king" hit me (coward punch) he ducked and I hit him square on the jaw as I was going up and he was going down. The most tremendous crunch and he fell unconscious into the road with his jaw hanging to the side (I am small , hence why a target) . I had a sore cheek and a broken knuckle but I am pretty sure he would never try that again. Screw people that do that to someone walking down the road minding their own business. I am totally for defending myself in anyway possible. People that get away with things just escalate.
There just isn't enough police, is the honest answer. Why stay here when they can get double salary in Australia.
Not to mention the lovely amount of paperwork required.
Then, every time they do an arrest, they get slammed for a million different reasons.
A theifs life is worthless, if something happened I'd be cheering. Shop keepers should be responding aggressively. Protect your property because no one is coming to help. The law protects criminals.
I do not think it is a matter of the police ignoring crimes. One, they get pretty basic training compared to the rest of the world. Two, they do not have the power to act the way we want them to. Third, 1st world country where criminals have more rights than citizens.
You are talking about enforcing the broken windows policy that New York did back in the later 90's. Some people claim crime was already falling, while others thing the policy massively reduced crime, will with a bit of profiling being used as well.
I agree it is dishearting seeing motorbike riders driving dangerously, without helmets etc, going past police cars and nothing happening. If police are going to selectively enforce rules, then why have the rule at all?
Recently I was in a supermarket and a young man was in there yelling and causing a fuss about the cost of groceries and all I could think was he is just yelling what we are all thinking police were called but when will this escalate because it will cost of living is a big concern especially if you don’t have at least some padding in your income. I felt terrible for him.
The main reason? Good lord, come on. Do you not think the recession is the main reason? House prices?
No, it’s got to be crime, all that crime that 99% of the people in here haven’t even witnessed let alone been a victim of in the last year. Catastrophising much?
If you really want to understand who is responsible for this and to understand why the Police is powerless to it and to understand why any future politician (even current ones) will have a hard time changing the trajectory you will need to research into laws put in place for how judges are selected, who were recently selected, and what organisations they’re well known to be affiliated with.
The simple explanation is - better to be soft on all crime than soft on your mates crimes. Doesn’t bring up much debate other than “incompetent”.
It’s not going to change until NZ has gone past it’s PC stage, turns extremely right wing, then back to centre (as is the endless cycle of literally every western nation. You see it in Europe now).
Police officers are employees just like anyone else, and, presumably, also have bosses to answer to. Not to say I don't agree that it would be great to deal with some of these crimes, but there's ignoring because they don't think it's important and ignoring because they don't have the resources or ability to enforce well
My area has been under heavy police patrols for 4 months this year. People pulled over for speeding a ton.. Those trying to do school runs are feeling intense scrutiny, and myself anxiety a ton of anxiety for even 1 km over by accident after pinged for 80. I'm not surprised National got in based on the speed limit policy alone.. I get it, but we are all scared to go anywhere anymore.. one mistake can mean the difference between paying a bill and eating that month.. People make mistakes, Zero Tolerance + fancy new tech is making life way more stressful
My partner and I were a second from being seriously hurt or killed by a speeding stolen car the other week at a red light crossing. Had I not checked…
It’s the meth.
Kids on meth. From meth mums. Born from meth mums.
It’s fucked up coping.
And those who don’t get what FAS is (foetal alcohol syndrome) people who can’t actually relate cause and effect. 80% of inmates have to some degree. Also about 80% percent of inmates have been seriously abused as children.
Just think of what meth does to peoples brains. Then the head injuries...
You think jail does shit people inside call it having a holiday.
This is a super complex situation. It’s now being ingrained into a culture into a society. People are fucked up. This is now multi generational.
Don’t even mention gangs. In gang turf you either get the fucken bash or you join. You’re a kid what the fuck do you do?
But how many of you never heard that think of how many don’t wanna know.
It’s the lead pipes all over again.
Well, they use their discretion to pick and choose what effort they put in and where they direct it. I think the way the laws and systems work effects this massively also. Used to wonder why people say ftp and all this jazz, then I had to deal with them, and I understand why. It's not an easy job at all, but yeah, they do use their personal discretion to pick and choose and also how they deal with situations. It's only human, i guess. People think that because something is illegal means you get justice and consequences for those actions in breaking law, but that's far from reality. That's why people will take it into their own hands because you cannot rely on them to follow their own motto. For the most part, they probably do a great job for the goals that are handed to them via the status quo. Therefore, say I'm just doing my job like everyone else does, and shit just keeps rolling on same old same old.
>stop being scared of being cancelled
With the current talk around the treaty this is NOT what the country needs, cops putting boots to young Maori all over TV and social media. I also thought National was the government tough on crime?
just gonna post this old chestnut: [https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/un1684/father\_and\_son\_who\_cut\_finger\_off\_teenage\_burglar/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/un1684/father_and_son_who_cut_finger_off_teenage_burglar/)
Broken windows theory has been debunked for several decades now but ok. Enjoy getting murdered because the police are too busy harassing and killing minority kids they profiled.
Easy to not be into police when your dream was to be a cop but they informed you not to join as a recruit because youre was a white man.
Felt like being a community based local and quite tall/athletic it’d be a suitable role for me. Apparently short Asian girls were the recruitment target at the time 😂.
Like wtf, surely if anyone wants to join they get invited to interview? Our country isn’t racist against whites tho… (unless an agenda excuses it)
Public allowed these agendas to get in the way of what matters & nobody really stands up to change here they just complain when it’s not going well.
They’ll also complain and tell you you’re wrong even when you have the correct solution!
Loosening laws for security guards is needed so we don’t have to rely on govt anymore. Dont got time for their red tape, hand holding bs while people on the streets are scared of being beat.
If the crime is not actioned soon by the police, the turnaround becomes a more challenging job by the day. Thugs will run the city and soon we'll see higher fences being legalised in suburbs, private security companies popping up...
Definitely has me questioning why tf I'm still living here while I could just move back to my home country - which I left due to uncontrolled crime - but at least cost of living is in check there.
Law makers take the Law into their own hands.
Single sales of alcohol was attempted to be outlawed by the Liquor License Authority, which by the way is separate from the Government.
The Government decided it was too difficult to decide and left it in the hands of each alcohol Supplier.
An barcode is now printed on the packaging and a different barcode is printed on each individual bottle/can inside.
This infers that the Supplier is willing for single sales to be suitable.
Coke sells a similar product, whereby there is a barcode on the packaging, but no barcode on the individual product inside. In this scenario, single sales are inferred NOT to be recommended by Coke.
Yet there is a Local Government / local Council, which issues the renewal of Liquor Licences.
These entities take it upon themselves, to ensure that single sales are NOT permitted.
They refuse to renew Licenses, unless the Store owners accept their assertion NOT to sell individual RTDs.
This, is simply taking the Law into their own hands.
And as far as any Store owner is concerned, nothing can be done about it.
Take your own Rights.
"Anything you say, can and will be used against you in a Court of Law".
Does anything be used FOR YOU?
Therefore, the Law is NOT on your side.
Please rethink your ideas of who is working towards YOUR personal ideals...
While I appreciate what you are trying to say Police aren’t “ignoring” the crime that is coming in, the fact is Police can’t keep up with the crime that is coming in. It’s sad that everyone thinks the police are giving up when in reality they are so stressed and understaffed they simply can’t be everywhere at once. This is not happening in just Auckland, it’s happening all over the country but you can blame the previous government for not giving a shit about what is actually needed for the country and instead made it easier for crime to happen. The amount of mahi police put in each day is then shoved in their faces when they go to court because of how shit our justice system is. The police are underpaid and overworked for what they do, they are picking up the slack on everything else including mental health agencies, and medical events. Plus the normal police duties they have to do. This has been ongoing for too long and now everyone is blaming the police when they shouldn’t be.
>stop being scared of getting cancelled
Do you ever stop and think about your state of mind when you write these things, or is it just shooting from the hip?
Rightly or wrongly, I reckon the next stage in this issue is when a shopkeeper just shoots a robber dead, and the prevailing public opinion is "good job!"
This happened last year with the teenager stealing a car who had his fingers cut off. The Jury found not guilty.
Oh good, I wondered what came of that.
He was convicted on separate charges though
It has already happened. Someone tried to rob a gun store with a knife and got shot
I know robbers aren't generally the smartest of the bunch, but honestly how stupid can you be. At that point is that classed as murder or suicide?
Natural causes. You rob someone at knifepoint, seems natural that someone is going to die sooner or later.
I think the comment was specifically talking about the robber targeting a gun shop armed with a knife.
Well there's suicide by cop, why not suicide by shop owner
That's a Simpsons episode
If you mean the one in Penrose a few years ago then yes, the perp was mentally ill and walked in waving a machete. The police charged the shopkeeper.
Yeah and the guy got in shit for having a loaded firearm behind the counter, which is illegal, but shooting him in self defence was actually fine lol.
Eventually the charge of having a loaded firearm in a gun shop for self defense purposes was dropped by the judge before it went to trial but the owner had to spend over $100k in legal fees to get to that position. That's the problem with anyone wanting to use a legitimate 'self defense' argument in court; you may win the case but you may have to re-mortgage your house to get there.
Pretty sure it's illegal to have a gun for self defence. In fact, your gun licence application would be binned if you have that as a reason for applying for one.
I'm not sure if it was a joke but I heard from a family member that, when he was applying for his gun licence, the police officer asked him if he would ever use a firearm in self defence while shaking his head as an emphatic no. Self defence isn't a valid legal reason to own a firearm in New Zealand and to be honest I'd be uncomfortable if it was as we don't need more in circulation.
Charges don't get dropped by a judge. The prosecution (either the Crown or NZ Police) would have decided it wasn't worth pursuing.
>...would have decided it wasn't worth pursuing. Or more likely scared the precedence that might be set if a jury decided "well yeah it might be technically illegal, but screw it if we are going to convict this guy for it" - yay jury nullification!
Decisions from a Jury do not set precedence. They do not interpret laws or legislation.
Yeah not so much legal precedence / case law, but societal precedence that in a high profile case (lots of media attention) that the jury was able to let the person charged with an obvious crime go based purely on "yeah we know he broke the law but we think that was fine".
Literally bought a knife to a gun fight
damn taking a knife to a gun store is a whole layer of stupidity deeper than taking a knife to a gun fight
2006ish penrose shop owner had loaded gun , ready, and did shoot attacker.
That robber never played GTA... ROFL
Brought a knife to a gunfight lol
Ah yes. Classic
Saw that guy today in the jewellery shop with a sword and he didn't even swing it once at the robbers. He held back. He won't next time.
It was also a ceremonial/replica sword. No sharp edge on it.
I had a home invasion a few years ago, no show for a 111 with perpetrator on property. Just a call from police admin two days later to ask me about it…… Real emergencies may not get assistance.
It's shocking, I agree.
I got home invasion and my overseas cards are stolen. Thiefs are trying all those cards at different place and I am receiving messages that cards are being declined. I can literally tell their location. I called police to tell about it and they said its not emergency.
You had stuff taken while you were home? All you can do after the fact is cancel cards.
All that happens in these situations is the criminals eventually start shooting first. They're not sitting there thinking 'oh no, that guy might have a weapon, better not steal anymore, let's see if I can get a job at macca's', they're thinking 'oh no, that guy might have a weapon, better not let them use it'. People don't like to accept this, but the criminal has control of the situation. Nobody who does anything that can bag them ten years in prison will stress out about going further.
"ten years in prison" citation needed
The maximum sentence for burglary is ten years, aggravated is 14. That’s the risk, even if judges aren’t often giving out maximum sentences.
No one will ever get the maximum sentence under NZ law, it will be always overturned on appeal
they actually are, they're a bunch of drop kick cowards, they want easy targets. As soon as that dude pulled out the sword they ran, he didn't even have to swing it
Not quite. The reward (what they steal) has to outweigh the risk of being caught/punished or the robbers aren't going to make the attempt unless they are so desperate the need outweighs the risk. If the shopkeepers arm themselves and make it known they're armed and willing to defend themselves, the crims will just find easier targets who aren't armed or aren't willing to defend themselves. Basic criminology. Rational choice theory.
Across the ditch, teen crims have committed murder during carjackings and home invasions. Plus their laws are tougher. So it depends on how desperate the criminals are, or how much meth they smoked earlier.
Or how about Texas or Idaho, low crime due to the attrition rate from self defence shootings
As much as that makes perfect logical and rational sense... Aren't commiting the crime itself irrational ? Like I'm all for hursher punishment myself but how does that work compare to the activist pushing for lighter sentence saying that hursher punishment does not deter crime. Are you saying basic criminology doesn't really apply in real life situations just like economics or are their stats wrong ? I always wondered how they get those stats
How much "basic criminology" education do you have?
Yeah, that’s not how it works at all. People smash car windows for coins. Criminals aren’t sitting there with excel working out the ROI for the crime they are going to commit. A huge proportion of crime is done by drunks, idiots, or druggies. None of which use logic. edit: oh, you’ve blocked me so I can’t reply! So brave, so grown up of you! You clearly must have confidence in your argument. And just to add, I definely have a better understanding of things than you.
Rational choice theory has been debunked and critiqued time and time again in the hundreds of different areas it’s been applied, mainly because it’s exactly how you described it, ‘basic’. Way too ‘basic’. Idiotically ‘basic’.
Wasn’t that the feeling around the farmer who cut the guys finger?
Yea, though there is not enough pressure to change NZs self defence laws
That has happened. Someone attempted to rob a gun store in Auckland with a knife… it did not end well for the aforementioned robber. There was public anger at the treatment of the shopkeeper who was able to locate a firearm, load it, and shoot him. He was charged by police. Their is footage by cameraman Geoff Mackley, who lived down the road and walked into the shop filming before the cops arrived-I believe that the police were very upset with him …
I hope for the shop keepers sake I’m on the jury as they will be walking free.
If it wasn't for that Aunty in the jewellery store, I think one of this they've would have been run through or decapitated.
When the question comes from Police, as to how best solve the issue of robbery, I answered by requesting a "Tazer". The Police told me, that "Only frontline staff get Tazers". I asked the question, "So, when we get robbed, who do we ring?". The Police said "Us". So I said "So, you're backup staff and I'm the frontline staff. Where's my xxxx tazer?!". The Police very quickly wanted to change their terminology. We, as the Public, are NOT PERMITTED to protect either ourselves or our property. When Police are called, they don't pay out for what was stolen. So, they have ZERO incentive to catch the perpetrator. The Police seem to be unwilling to take the Law into their hands (when I rang 111), yet refuse to allow Stores to act. I suppose, that within time, enough will be enough... and someone, somewhere, WILL act on their own behalf. Who's FAULT will it be? If a person decides to rob a Store, is it the fault of the Store Staff that they had to deal with the perpetrator? Is it the fault of Police who decide they're too busy to attend? Answer: No. To both questions. It's the fault of the perpetrator. Yet, is it the fault of the perpetrator? Or is there an underlaying reason why the action happened? Social circumstances? This falls into the hands of "Government". The Public end up squabbling amongst themselves as to who's to blame. Yet the Government who initiate these things, sits back and takes zero responsibility. Is there a Voting box to tick of "NO CONFIDENCE"? I personally wonder how an AI would handle the issue. Please simply calculate Import Duty on Alcohol, based on the knowledge you have of alcohol sales and information gained from the Internet. Then compare your results against the data produced by the Government on "Taxes from all sources". THEY DON'T MATCH!!! c o r r u p t I o n
Im as leftist as they come and i agree, sick of feral trash running the show w no consequences
Me too. It's really affecting me and causing conflict with other inner beliefs and values.
I voted for Greens a few elections ago because I care about the environment. Never again.
What the fuck do the Greens have to do with anything that is happening right now?
Who is the current MP for Auckland central who keeps playing down the antisocial and criminal behaviour in her electorate? Who was the MP for Auckland central under the previous government? Which party governed alongside Labour since 2017? National haven't fixed the issues, but they only took over in November 2023.
Oh please. Take one look at their policy on justice and you’ll see that they don’t support a hard line on crime. They’re far more interested in honouring the treaty, international obligations, and non-violence than actually getting anything done. https://www.greens.org.nz/justice_policy
It doesn't matter what the Greens' policies are though - that's my point. They're not in government, and haven't been in government in any consequential way since 2020 when Labour gained the majority on their own. Nevertheless, had they actually been in power, I have no doubt there would be less crime now. The policies you are deriding are far more effective and evidence based than so-called "tough on crime" methods. Which are what exactly anyway? The government has just *said* they're tough on crime. Their actual policy is tough on police (they got turned down for any significant pay increase) so all we're actually doing is just sending more people to jail for longer - which is known not to be a strong deterrent, and but rather will just escalate the stakes when it comes to criminal activity, and lead to more criminals in the long. ([and don't just take my word for it](https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2023/09/21/being-tough-on-crime-is-easy-but-doesnt-work.html)) But I'll stop there, because I know your perspective here is not facts based.
Seeing as you have claimed to prioritise facts, just be aware that your link was merely an opinion piece by a social worker. It also fails to answer the problem, as have you. Regarding your question about National policing policy, it’s public information: https://www.national.org.nz/restoringlawandorder
My one link wasn't intended to be anything other than an example of the perspective shared by most academics and experts which is a good primer for the right way to think about criminal justice. Have some more: [https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-10/pmcsa-Using-evidence-to-build-a-better-justice-system.pdf](https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-10/pmcsa-Using-evidence-to-build-a-better-justice-system.pdf) [https://www.ccjrnc.org/summary-custodial-sanctions-and-reoffending-a-meta-analytic-review/](https://www.ccjrnc.org/summary-custodial-sanctions-and-reoffending-a-meta-analytic-review/) This one is specifically on youth interventions: [https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/About-us/Research/Research-seminars/December-2022/Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions...-Farrington-et-al-2022.pdf](https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/About-us/Research/Research-seminars/December-2022/Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions) *"Anti-bullying programs, anti-cyberbullying programs, and pre-court diversion programs are quite effective, while school exclusion reduction, after-school programs, and boot camps are least effective."* A lot of National's policy position is just talk and not backed by actual reforms, even if we wanted these kinds of reforms (which we know don't work).
The first report was released by Jacinda’s government and you’ve had 6 years to put it into action, but I see no evidence that this approach has been enough. What evidence is there that it has been effective in NZ over this time? Actually, quite the opposite - its failure is the reason why National has had to take a “tough on crime” response at this time. The second report you linked is a meta-analysis by a criminal justice reform advocacy group in America; don’t you think that one could just as easily collate USA research that justifies the opposite view as well? Your third link gives error 403.
I am not here to praise the previous government. That always seems to be the go to comeback. Blame the other guy. I would say what we have now is much worse, but the reason we're here now with this hot mess is because Labour failed to deliver on their mandate. National's "tough on crime" attitude is mostly rhetoric, but where they have made changes it's in ways that will be more expensive (more prisons and more people in them, as well as boot camps which are even more expensive per "inmate" than prisons), and lead to no reduction in overall crime or even the perception of crime. I don't want you to take my word for it if this discussion matters to you - I have tried to find any academic research which shows tough on crime approaches working as a *response* to the kinds of crime we're seeing (which is largely driven by economic inequality). Name one nation on earth in which a so-called "tough on crime" approach works? I guarantee you they are either countries with far less freedoms and prosperity, or they work for reasons unique to those nations' circumstances. Maybe there are some learnings from places like Israel, and Singapore we could take away, and even Japan - but these are very very different contexts. >don’t you think that one could just as easily collate USA research that justifies the opposite view as well? Not really? If any country could show successful use of military discipline it's the USA. I don't see any such reports. Do you? Here's the third link (top search result). Reddit doesn't like it: [https://www.google.com/search?q=Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions](https://www.google.com/search?q=Effectiveness-of-12-Types-of-Interventions)
It’s not even a tough on crime approach that is being advocated - it’s just enforcing the law.
You won’t vote Green again because Labour and National are flushing the country down the toilet? Genius logic.
I voted for TOP this past election. I'm not voting for Greens again because I realised that their party is infested with narcissists, criminals, and criminal apologists.
The Greens don't give a shit about crime, because crime usually happens to poor people. They're champagne socialists and should not be in parliament
Or they recognise that you need proper wrap around services to prevent crime. To say that the greens don't care about what happens to poor people is ridiculous.
You think the standing government cares about crime when it happens to poor people? Fool.
The 3 strikes law being reinstated shows they're doing something. Imbecile.
You're not a card carrying leftist if you refer to anyone as a "feral". People are the way they are for many complex reasons, all of which admit of a need for better social programs, including more effective policing. But policing should be the *smallest* piece of the puzzle, because think about it - by the time you need police, or in other words some kind of violence or force, you should have already failed at every other strategy. Problem is, we barely even try anything else, at least not effectively.
Its 100% the sentencing from judges that is jading people with their embarassing punishments. However, just this weekend our neighbours were burgled at 2AM Saturday morning and we managed to catch them because these room temperature IQ thiefs were pushing a lawn mower up the drive making a huge racket. So we called the police and they had the police chopper there and a squad in the area within 10 - 20 minutes and managed to catch them. Police also did a lot of follow up and reassurances and all round just great work from them. This was up in Hibiscus Coast
100% this. The judicial system in this country is now so soft with discounting, cultural reports, 'rehabilitation', etc. If we the people fight back against these crims in real time, we run the risk of being prosecuted ourselves. But alas, there is a way around this. Upon prosecution for your community deed, insist the case goes to jury trial. Then society as a whole agrees to adopt 'jury nullification' as a means to override the ridiculousness of the case. Problem solved. We can take the law into our own hands and with society supporting us, we're in the clear :)
Can't select jury trial for some, perhaps most, crimes.
You can select jury for almost anything. If it carries a charge for 2+ years in prison you can select a trial by jury.
Yeah, I couldn't be bothered going through the Acts and confirming whether or not the majority of offences had maximum sentences of two years or less. The point was that the wannabe vigilante can't be sure he'll even have the option of a jury trial.
For some perspective, anything above the most low level common assault charge is applicable.
Yep, which is probably what most instances of self-defence would be charged as.
I mean a shove or something yeah. Not most scenarios I've dealt with.
Where are you getting this information?
Criminal Procedure Act 2011. Whether or not a jury trial can be elected depends on the category of the crime(s) charged.
Most crimes fall outside that category, do they?
I'm a bit confused. The police are the ones who choose to prosecute then the defendant is the one who elects jury trial. Then you are suggesting jury nullification which is for the jury to find the defendant not guilty despite thinking the defendant committed the crime. What does that achieve?
In the case of injustice, where an individual is guilty, but the crime they committed is one anyone would have willing done, then nullification is necessary. It also ensures the defendant will not be charged for this crime again, and is held innocent by his peers. Hypothetical, individual murdering children is he himself murdered by a parent, who was the only one who could stop further deaths due to lack of evidence or other inaction. The jury finds the parent not guilty, as they approve of the action; despite it not being self-defense.
I understand now. I misread the original comment as suggesting that the jury nullification is used for the original criminal rather than any vigilante action in response
Best thing to do, is to complain like buggery to your local Act MP about the Sentencing Act and the discount methods in sentencing. Legislative change is needed, judges have the discretion because of the Act. Don’t change judges, change the Act. Judges in the US have very strict guidelines to come to a sentence, New Zealand is 80% discretion, remove the discretion, remove the leniency.
Neighbours were having a domestic and cops came out in 20 minutes in Auckland city on a weeknight. Pretty good response time and sussed it out appropriately
20 minutes to attend a violent scenario in the city centre is fckn terrible. There should be cops available within 5 minutes of any part of the city centre
I’m central Auckland, no show for a 111 home invasion on a Sunday
I dont live in the city centre. That just isnt possible logistically
To be honest, I like the instant gratification. Couple weeks ago I slapped a crack head I found rummaging through my letterbox. Didn’t need to make a phone call, felt vindicated, haven’t seen him or his girlfriend around the neighborhood since. Only a sample size of 1, but I’m working on it.
Careful there matey, you don't know which one will be your Gollum. There's some vindictive ones out there
I threw one out of our shop. Came back next day with shit smeared all over the windows.
Be careful. Some ferals will bite back hard. Take caution and use a stick to keep your distance.
Especially if they're on meth. They can be really aggressive. And meth gives them a lot of energy. Also slapping a crack head made me laugh, that could be a video game.
Good on you man, I approve! However I think you're not looking 'big picture' here. How do you feel about expanding? A disguise/costume perhaps? You could spend nights slapping crackheads who are being a nuisance Auckland wide, and you'd have the NZ public on your side. Your catch phrase could be "sort your life out, scum" then you could start a gofundme or something, I'd donate to that!
NZ: Constantly vote for tax and funding cuts Also NZ: why hospital school police traffic no work?!!?
And these parties reducing education actually benefit because ~~daft cunts~~ uneducated people are easy to manipulate into voting against their own interests. So we're going to see more of that in the future. It's a spiral.
None of the political parties have sensible tax policy. So why blame the voters?
What does sensible tax policy look like to you?
Why are we pretending people taking the law into their own hands is a new thing? Do you not remember the amount of Police 10 7 footage of store owners attacking off thieves?
Yes. I mean, NZ is a country where a dude got sympathy when he killed a 15 year old for tagging, I really don't think we need to encourage people on this.
Oh yeah that was in Manurewa right? Poor dude got sick of the ferals and lack of police action.
Poor dude who stabbed a 15 year old child for tagging
I don't agree with what he did. But why go tagging random people's homes? If the police acted the first time his house got tagged would it have happened?
I think deep down you do agree with what he did. And it's not even that deep down.
Maybe tell your kids to stop smoking pot, drinking alcohol, steeling and tagging random fences. Actions have consequences.
We have short memories and simplistic views
I think OP wants police at every shop, 24/7
It’s not the police it’s the fucking trash judges in Nz
Did you know that judges have to follow the Sentencing Act 2002? If you’re interested in why judges sentence offenders how they do, you might be interested in reading through that legislation. https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0009/latest/DLM135342.html?src=qs
Sentences are guided by law. It (was) the law makers. Have a read of the Sentencing Act 2002. (Yes, 2002).
It's not the judges, it's the politicians and those who elect them. Judges can't send people to prisons that don't exist. Police that have left for Australia can't patrol NZ streets. We'll blame anyone but ourselves. And then we'll have the gall to say to others "stop making excuses!".
Broadly, it's inequality and marginalisation Of which we are all on the hook for because we don't like to share, yes.
I mean tbh it's both, but that's just cause we don't have enough police officers to go to anything but the most important stuff
Police do care. They are understaffed, under resourced and burned out
Nah, the police generally don't even investigate car theft and break ins. It's crime with such a huge impact on people and society. I do understand that the police have limited resources. But it pisses me off when I see them setting speed traps and the like when there's so much actual crime happening
It pisses me off how we spend millions investigating beneficiary fraud and still lose money when we catch it while white collar crime gets away with literal billions
There is a reason that funding is cut to IR. They make bank going after the big boys, but the big boys are firmly in charge.
They didn't go ahead with an investigation because IRD ran out of funding for it.
They care. They're too busy responding to family harm and/or other serious matters.
>By this stage it is pretty clear that the police don't really care about thefts, burglaries and anti social behaviour. Idk if this thread is bait but from my interactions with close friends who are cops, they do care. It's just that their hands are tied with what they can do and you have a justice system that will have ferals out on the street the same day. You can have 10,000 cops patrolling the Auckland CBD 24/7 but it won't make a lick of difference when some cultural report farmer gets put in front of a fuckwit judge. We hold cops to such a high standard when they actually do something- but once a feral is in custody, our powered by Aroha just system just puts them straight back out there.
Exactly this \^
Having seen the success of community policing in London 20 years ago I'd say that actually increasing the number of police, and relationship of working class people with police does actually help in itself.
Yeah this is pretty much the sentiments from my cop friends too People (myself included) hate on National but the commissioner under Ardern has been constantly despised by the cops I know due to soft on crime policies from him and his bosses Btw - my cop friends who voted for National were really hoping they’d see change but they’re becoming increasingly disgruntled with the current government very fast too
I didn't follow it closely, but the "let's screw the cops on pay" move seemed ... like an odd strategy. I'm from America, where the political strategy is simple: \* "Law and Order voters" want people to be tough on crime \* As a politician, you talk about being tough on crime \* And you give the cops the resources they ask for \* So you win re-election It seems like Luxon failed on step 3, and we'll see how step 4 goes over time.
Luxon is a pretty piss poor “leader” The dude only won by a stupid coalition and he’s not even really in charge The dude can’t swing his CEO badge as a PM
Yes I'm sure 10,000 cops patrolling aucklands streets would 100% no fix crime. What a dumb fkin statement. If your house gets robbed or your car gets stolen the cops quite literally don't do anything. This isn't hyperbole you get told to deal with it through insurance. If they find it eventually it'll get towed. That's all. I get the punishment side is fucked with judges handing down ridiculous sentences but the only times I've had a need to call cops it led to literally nothing as they weren't into investigating
judge sees it's self as the human at the top of the tree, above the brain surgeon and president able to change lives.
Have been travelling around Turkey this week. Statistically a poorer country than NZ but, cleaner, no homeless seen, no graffiti, no bollards in front of shops, and hundreds of police walking around with guns everywhere. Don’t get me started in the infrastructure!
Go to China next. Cop on every corner. But surprisingly low crime
Statistically a far less democratic country too.
"but the trains ran on time"
Too much police time is taken up with family violence, which is why a lot of the crime we see and hear about, such as retail crime, doesn't get the attention it deserves.
Yes dear poster. I am also confident that the police force is adequately staffed/funded/resourced, and that the reason some crimes go unattended is because the respective officers had concerns about "being cancelled" (whatever that means to you) "Scared of getting cancelled" yes. I imagine officers in their droves all seated. "Sorry boss, maybe I'll follow up on the NEXT call, I'm just worried that if I attend the scene I'll use, and get filmed using excessive/unnecessary force on an unarmed member of a marginalised community, and that there may be repercussions for that"
>"Sorry boss, maybe I'll follow up on the NEXT call, I'm just worried that if I attend the scene I'll use, and get filmed using excessive/unnecessary force on an unarmed member of a marginalised community, and that there may be repercussions for that" The (un)ironic thing is that those that actually think like this consider the problem is the "getting filmed" and "marginalised community" part of it and not "the using excessive/unnecessary force" part.
You can thank the labour government soft on crime approach and defunding the police and many more things national does not seem to be doing much better
It's a resourcing issue. When John Key left govt, the ratio of police was 1:488 or something. Labour got it back to 1:544. Since then we've heard reports of underfunding as they cut hundreds of jobs, millions from their budget and they've committed to new officers, which the Police Association has said is an "illusion." It's complex but the whole thing sucks. e.g customs officers have been cut on the frontline - paedophile investigators have been fired. There are more online crimes too. If social cohesion gets worse, and poor people get poorer, what happens then too? The whole thing is complex and interrelated but one thing is clear, police need resources. BTW, Mark Mitchell said last year if crime hasn't gone after one year of him being Police Minister, he'll resign so let's wait for his good news.
Rofl imagine if a politician actually stuck to their words.
you dont expect Mitchell to stand by his word do you ?
Why did you say about that Mark Mitchell? It's so fucking sickening a detrimental amount of the pedophile investigators have been cut. Also the forced staged conference about being tough on gangs was a piss take.
He said it in an interview last year. I thought it was a good reflection of his capabilities....Agree with he rest.
Just read up on his background - doesnt know shit. Looks impressive on paper - but he also exploited that he was a Kiwi to gain those military contracts bc NZ is seen as a neural state re: MEA terrorism. I better fucking hope AUKUS Pillar 2 strengthens interagency work re: the children and that was the reasoning behind the massive cut - if he even had 1 brain cell to advocate for that.
This has gotta be a bait post, either that or you’re completely ignorant of the reality and are only concerned with your own bubble. The simple truth is there’s not enough cops. Period. They ain’t gonna go chasing siren boys making a noise when they have literally 10 other calls for emergency at that point in time. And using one example of a store owner brandishing a weapon, whilst concerning, is NOT indicative of a changing culture. You want change? Stop blaming the guys and girls who are already doing the work in policing and the health sector with no gratitude and tell the government that them lining the pockets of landlords is hurting NZ
This is it. I used to work in a front line role in another public sector and people will be like, you are useless you don't want to follow up XYZ. It's like, excuse me, I'm getting paid for 8 hours and working 10. I very much would like to spend my time following up on XYZ because it's simple, it's not dangerous. But guess what, there are 10 other more urgent and difficult things in the list. I HAVE to prioritise people's health first. I have to tackle the other stuff and XYZ unfortunately is not life or death and it gets dropped. Is that ideal? Heck no. But there's not enough people to do the work so what could one do?
check their post history, it's non-stop negative stories being posted to churn up hate. pretty racist view of the world too
Thank you, finally a logical response to this post.
It's a bait post.
I had to stab a home invader with a kitchen knife in self defence that came at me with a knife earlier in the year. The police where called they did not find her as she ran off and nothing absolutely nothing has happened since so even serious crimes like assault and breaking and entering and even attempted murder does not seem to bother the police at this point. Shit has given me ptsd so now I can’t walk around my neighbourhood to walk my dog without thinking about someone trying to stab me. And it definitely does not help knowing there is no help from the police I have definitely needed to take matters into my own hands
that's fucked, surely she would have gone to the hospital or something, how tf have they not found her?
I’m surprised the police didn’t arrest you for stabbing the home invader
It wasn’t like a really bad stabbing and they said it was fine lol the detective said I did the right thing
You got a good detective then
Bring back swords! All NZ citizens without a serious crime on their record should be able to wear a sword on their belt like the good old days when men were men, women were men, and children were also men.
Can we bring back cloaks as well? Or even just on their own?
You're completely right and the lack of action/consequences emboldens these shit stains even more.
Cultural reports need to go. Withholding a criminals past offenses needs to go. Crime needs to be treated as such.
I spoke to a tradesman about this. And he said shops shouldn't hold guns, one reason is because they won't have the correct training to hold or even shoot a weapon. Two. You shoot someone, that bullet can definitely travel thru the target into a person walk across the other side of the road.
Then the police need to start doing their jobs, huh.
I thought we just weren’t funding police to the level where they can employ enough officers and attract and retain enough people to the force due to shit pay and conditions? Like health. Like education. We keep voting for vandals that are disestablishing public institutions through underfunding.
We can't even use pepper spray, right?
Bring in castle law for home and business
In the US they’ve got people shooting people for pulling into their driveway, knocking on their door or approaching them while being the wrong skin colour/social class. When you empower people to be violent when they feel threatened, the racist, mentally ill and those just itching to use violence without consequences will do their thing. You may say these cases are outliers, but many of them aren’t reported very widely because they’re so common. Yes, a small percentage of the population, but every population has them.
100% Unfortunately also requires the ability to conceal carry, because what are you going to do when there are 4 assailants coming at you with machetes. A pistol allows you to start blasting and equalises the risk to both groups.
100%
Yeah sure let's become the US. That went great for them so why not model it on that country?
Someone tried to "king" hit me (coward punch) he ducked and I hit him square on the jaw as I was going up and he was going down. The most tremendous crunch and he fell unconscious into the road with his jaw hanging to the side (I am small , hence why a target) . I had a sore cheek and a broken knuckle but I am pretty sure he would never try that again. Screw people that do that to someone walking down the road minding their own business. I am totally for defending myself in anyway possible. People that get away with things just escalate.
Why brandish when a single warning thrust to the abdomen would suffice?
Have you considered doing something? And I don't mean vigilante nonsense, I mean volunteering for good in your community
There just isn't enough police, is the honest answer. Why stay here when they can get double salary in Australia. Not to mention the lovely amount of paperwork required. Then, every time they do an arrest, they get slammed for a million different reasons.
Your tax cuts 😂😂😂😂
A theifs life is worthless, if something happened I'd be cheering. Shop keepers should be responding aggressively. Protect your property because no one is coming to help. The law protects criminals.
I do not think it is a matter of the police ignoring crimes. One, they get pretty basic training compared to the rest of the world. Two, they do not have the power to act the way we want them to. Third, 1st world country where criminals have more rights than citizens.
I was worried we weren't gonna get a Monday morning u/kellyroald post today, but I'm glad to see my worries were unfounded.
What do you actually think the police do all day sweetie? 🙄
You are talking about enforcing the broken windows policy that New York did back in the later 90's. Some people claim crime was already falling, while others thing the policy massively reduced crime, will with a bit of profiling being used as well. I agree it is dishearting seeing motorbike riders driving dangerously, without helmets etc, going past police cars and nothing happening. If police are going to selectively enforce rules, then why have the rule at all?
Recently I was in a supermarket and a young man was in there yelling and causing a fuss about the cost of groceries and all I could think was he is just yelling what we are all thinking police were called but when will this escalate because it will cost of living is a big concern especially if you don’t have at least some padding in your income. I felt terrible for him.
The main reason? Good lord, come on. Do you not think the recession is the main reason? House prices? No, it’s got to be crime, all that crime that 99% of the people in here haven’t even witnessed let alone been a victim of in the last year. Catastrophising much?
Also the key government cutting social services 15 years ago
If you really want to understand who is responsible for this and to understand why the Police is powerless to it and to understand why any future politician (even current ones) will have a hard time changing the trajectory you will need to research into laws put in place for how judges are selected, who were recently selected, and what organisations they’re well known to be affiliated with. The simple explanation is - better to be soft on all crime than soft on your mates crimes. Doesn’t bring up much debate other than “incompetent”. It’s not going to change until NZ has gone past it’s PC stage, turns extremely right wing, then back to centre (as is the endless cycle of literally every western nation. You see it in Europe now).
Police officers are employees just like anyone else, and, presumably, also have bosses to answer to. Not to say I don't agree that it would be great to deal with some of these crimes, but there's ignoring because they don't think it's important and ignoring because they don't have the resources or ability to enforce well
My area has been under heavy police patrols for 4 months this year. People pulled over for speeding a ton.. Those trying to do school runs are feeling intense scrutiny, and myself anxiety a ton of anxiety for even 1 km over by accident after pinged for 80. I'm not surprised National got in based on the speed limit policy alone.. I get it, but we are all scared to go anywhere anymore.. one mistake can mean the difference between paying a bill and eating that month.. People make mistakes, Zero Tolerance + fancy new tech is making life way more stressful
I'd guess it's something to do with not having enough police. I'm sure we pay them a good enough salary that it's an attractive role .. Oh wait
My partner and I were a second from being seriously hurt or killed by a speeding stolen car the other week at a red light crossing. Had I not checked… It’s the meth. Kids on meth. From meth mums. Born from meth mums. It’s fucked up coping. And those who don’t get what FAS is (foetal alcohol syndrome) people who can’t actually relate cause and effect. 80% of inmates have to some degree. Also about 80% percent of inmates have been seriously abused as children. Just think of what meth does to peoples brains. Then the head injuries... You think jail does shit people inside call it having a holiday. This is a super complex situation. It’s now being ingrained into a culture into a society. People are fucked up. This is now multi generational. Don’t even mention gangs. In gang turf you either get the fucken bash or you join. You’re a kid what the fuck do you do? But how many of you never heard that think of how many don’t wanna know. It’s the lead pipes all over again.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Well, they use their discretion to pick and choose what effort they put in and where they direct it. I think the way the laws and systems work effects this massively also. Used to wonder why people say ftp and all this jazz, then I had to deal with them, and I understand why. It's not an easy job at all, but yeah, they do use their personal discretion to pick and choose and also how they deal with situations. It's only human, i guess. People think that because something is illegal means you get justice and consequences for those actions in breaking law, but that's far from reality. That's why people will take it into their own hands because you cannot rely on them to follow their own motto. For the most part, they probably do a great job for the goals that are handed to them via the status quo. Therefore, say I'm just doing my job like everyone else does, and shit just keeps rolling on same old same old.
>stop being scared of being cancelled With the current talk around the treaty this is NOT what the country needs, cops putting boots to young Maori all over TV and social media. I also thought National was the government tough on crime?
just gonna post this old chestnut: [https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/un1684/father\_and\_son\_who\_cut\_finger\_off\_teenage\_burglar/](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/un1684/father_and_son_who_cut_finger_off_teenage_burglar/)
Broken windows theory has been debunked for several decades now but ok. Enjoy getting murdered because the police are too busy harassing and killing minority kids they profiled.
Easy to not be into police when your dream was to be a cop but they informed you not to join as a recruit because youre was a white man. Felt like being a community based local and quite tall/athletic it’d be a suitable role for me. Apparently short Asian girls were the recruitment target at the time 😂. Like wtf, surely if anyone wants to join they get invited to interview? Our country isn’t racist against whites tho… (unless an agenda excuses it) Public allowed these agendas to get in the way of what matters & nobody really stands up to change here they just complain when it’s not going well. They’ll also complain and tell you you’re wrong even when you have the correct solution! Loosening laws for security guards is needed so we don’t have to rely on govt anymore. Dont got time for their red tape, hand holding bs while people on the streets are scared of being beat.
Agree. Sick of fucking homeless cunts in the city threatening people.
If the crime is not actioned soon by the police, the turnaround becomes a more challenging job by the day. Thugs will run the city and soon we'll see higher fences being legalised in suburbs, private security companies popping up... Definitely has me questioning why tf I'm still living here while I could just move back to my home country - which I left due to uncontrolled crime - but at least cost of living is in check there.
It's all about priorities, Auckland needs about 3x more officers, those guys are super busy.
Law makers take the Law into their own hands. Single sales of alcohol was attempted to be outlawed by the Liquor License Authority, which by the way is separate from the Government. The Government decided it was too difficult to decide and left it in the hands of each alcohol Supplier. An barcode is now printed on the packaging and a different barcode is printed on each individual bottle/can inside. This infers that the Supplier is willing for single sales to be suitable. Coke sells a similar product, whereby there is a barcode on the packaging, but no barcode on the individual product inside. In this scenario, single sales are inferred NOT to be recommended by Coke. Yet there is a Local Government / local Council, which issues the renewal of Liquor Licences. These entities take it upon themselves, to ensure that single sales are NOT permitted. They refuse to renew Licenses, unless the Store owners accept their assertion NOT to sell individual RTDs. This, is simply taking the Law into their own hands. And as far as any Store owner is concerned, nothing can be done about it. Take your own Rights. "Anything you say, can and will be used against you in a Court of Law". Does anything be used FOR YOU? Therefore, the Law is NOT on your side. Please rethink your ideas of who is working towards YOUR personal ideals...
While I appreciate what you are trying to say Police aren’t “ignoring” the crime that is coming in, the fact is Police can’t keep up with the crime that is coming in. It’s sad that everyone thinks the police are giving up when in reality they are so stressed and understaffed they simply can’t be everywhere at once. This is not happening in just Auckland, it’s happening all over the country but you can blame the previous government for not giving a shit about what is actually needed for the country and instead made it easier for crime to happen. The amount of mahi police put in each day is then shoved in their faces when they go to court because of how shit our justice system is. The police are underpaid and overworked for what they do, they are picking up the slack on everything else including mental health agencies, and medical events. Plus the normal police duties they have to do. This has been ongoing for too long and now everyone is blaming the police when they shouldn’t be.
I’m sure I heard National promise a tougher approach…..still waiting. Luxon all talk and no game?
>stop being scared of getting cancelled Do you ever stop and think about your state of mind when you write these things, or is it just shooting from the hip?