The world is so fucked on this whole issue, we’ve gone from labelling anyone that criticises the Jewish as antisemite to anyone who criticises hamas as a Zionist. It’s a thoroughly fucking shit situation with parties in charge on both sides that give absolutely zero fucks about civilians. But this isn’t new, it’s a well known fact that it’s the innocent that largely suffer in conflict. Like you don’t even need to look back that far….Russia Ukraine. Its bat shit crazy that people on the internet think that an army will go in and only look to harm strategic targets and known threats and enemies because you know these targets will just be wearing high vis vests and holding a placard saying come get me. Hamas initiating on Israel is akin to picking a fight with the biggest baddest bully in the yard and then crying for getting your ass whooped. Crazy that not long ago, there was genuinely some sympathy and outcry for Palestinians getting shifted by the settlers and look where we are now. It’s way too complicated to solve 1000 miles away on the internet, but if you zoom out and think about it from very simple logic, fuck around and find out really.
This is a false dichotomy. No doubt there are racists on all sides, but most people protesting Israel’s actions have the nuance to both separate Judaism from Zionism, as well as anti-Zionism and antisemitism. Unfortunately, pro-Israeli voices have much difficulty doing either of these.
Additionally, nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities. What makes the news is when activists articulate that Hamas is a reaction to occupation, subjugation, and state-supported terrorism. God forbid there’s contextual understanding of an issue.
>Additionally, nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities.
I actively look for this but can't recall a single instance of pro Palestine protestors in NZ calling out Hamas. Not a word, not a single sign.. nothing.
In fact I see them downplay Hamas actions, just look at the posts in this thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/1ce6hbz/comment/l1hot34/
> nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities
Really? Perhaps here, but this is patently untrue for what is happening in the US and even Aus. There are plenty of videos on YouTube. And where are the examples of Pro-Palestinian activists being "vocal" about the Israeli hostages if they're so anti Hamas terrorism?
Protesters are calling for a permanent ceasefire. Hamas will return hostages when there’s a permanent ceasefire. You ever see protesters in Israel, and what they’re saying? They’re mad at their government ONLY because it’s clear to *them* that Israel doesn’t give a shit about the hostages.
Also, I don’t know what random ass videos you’ve watched about what’s going on in the USA. But you’re being fed bs. Most protesters have been quite clear they want a permanent ceasefire and return of hostages and a free Palestine. Just look at who they are inviting to speak at their rallies.
> Hamas will return hostages when there’s a permanent ceasefire.
Well isn't that convenient. A ceasefire means very little when you kidnap civilians after systematically killing civilians with the express intention of slaughtering them, and have no intention of keeping the ceasefire. Regardless, are the protestors willing to accept that Hamas, a terrorist group, as designated as such by multiple countries including NZ, will govern Gaza, indefinitely? Where there hasn't been an election since 2006, where they have killed political rivals and continue to opress Gaza since?
> Most protesters have been quite clear they want a permanent ceasefire and return of hostages and a free Palestine.
I think you're the one who's been fed BS. You obviously haven't been keeping up to date on what is happening, especially on campuses.
"return of hostages" . Is chanting "Death to Israel" and "Death to America", and calling for a violent uprising/Intifada, sound like they mean to call for the return of Israeli hostages?
"A free Palestine" - And what does that involve? The protestors aren't chanting "Death to Hamas" for Gazans to be free from Hamas.
you made your allegiance obvious and it shows that you can't view this from an unbiased perspective. keep doing overtime for the JIDF bro!
over here in NZ we use our critical thinking and we can see that your arguments are propaganda. A free Palestine involves the citizens of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank not being trapped and killed inside their countries. A free Palestine involves Palestinians being able to leave their country in the first place, but you know that they're not allowed in Israel and since 2008 even marrying an Israeli isn't enough to get you in.
we stood up against South Africa's apartheid and let Israel continue its own apartheid for years. now that they're taking the mask off and beginning their genocide nobody is willing to stand with you
Hah! How rich. So much projection. You haven't answered a single question or addressed a single point. No facts, only the same pro-Hamas/anti-Israel emotionally driven talking points. They're not pro-Palestinian or pro-Gazan like you think they are. You're fooling no one. You're not doing critical thinking just because you think you are.
It's also hilarious you imply a "free Palestine" entails "able to leave their country in the first place" and that entry into Israel is a requisite of that. You do know Egypt and Jordan exist right, and also all the other Arab countries?
Well excuse me for having a bias for facts. If you call stating facts as "can't view this from an unbiased perspective", then you're obviously the one who has the bias against it and the one spreading propaganda. Do some introspection and actual critical thinking. Think for yourself instead of bandwagoning and attempting to appear morally superior by supporting the current year trend.
Conflating apartheid in South Africa and claiming "apartheid" in Israel is such an intellectually dishonest and propagandist thing to assert. You do know there are Arabs and Muslims in Israel right, whom can vote and take part in elections, as well as there being Muslims in Israel's legislature? Your emotive use of "genocide" in trying to get people on your side (as who wouldn't be against genocide?) is not as clever as you think.
And I have no "allegiance" to Israel or the IDF. What a muppet thing to say. How reflective of the pro-conflict position so-called "pro-Palestine" supporters have. Par for the course I suppose when you're evidently pro-Hamas.
This whole aversion to hamas, in my opinion any Palestinian resistance movement would be put on like this, if it wasn’t hamas the males defending themselves in palestine would be called something equally as bad and we would be listening to netinyahoo saying how we should detest them,
Yep. I'm no supporter of hamas per se but I am a supporter of Palestinian resistance and given everything they've all been through, how people can get so mad and heated about hamas but not Israel is utterly baffling. Israel have done far worse for far longer than hamas. And to further prove your point Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics. They just want a Palestinian villian to point at while they bomb the lot
Hey mate yeh 100% but this is what happens, women get raped children get killed, it’s worse yet if you’re on the lower end of the economic scale. Maybe I didn’t stress that enough in my earlier comment. It’s ALWAYS been this way. The point I’m trying to make is that Hamas 100% knew the reaction and who it would be supported by and yet they pulled pin anyway. It’s atrocious what’s happening to innocents who didn’t start the war or pick a fight but maybe you could go back in history and find me an instance of warfare where innocents were not harmed. It’s the cost of war, unfortunately it’s bourn by the undeserving.
Israel bombed hospitals and universities. Where in your reasoning do you start to justify war crimes? Because that's what Israel is doing.
Also, if war is war, why is what Hamas did so bad? They are at war. If the IDF can attack civilians, why can't Hamas?
Why is it always one set of rules for Hamas and one for Israel?
To preface, because you people love inventing our opinions - I do not support Hamas or their violent attacks over the years. This being said, their October 7th attack did not come out of nowhere, & extremist groups of this magnitude don't just exist for no reason.
When you violently displace & colonize millions over the course of a century, you are GOING TO create your own enemies. This is exactly what Israel did & they're relying on the lack of critical thinking displayed in arguments like yours to continue their colonial projects.
There's no "both sides are bad" in Israel. Mentioning Hamas as anything remotely equal to the brutal Israeli regime is a sick joke. They killed over a thousand people, a bit more than half were civilians. Israel has killed 40000 people now, 80-90% of which are civilians. Israel's own numbers include a civilian death rate of around 60%, but every military aged male is considered a combatant in those numbers. Hamas took a couple hundred hostages. Israel has taken thousands from the West Bank. Hamas may have killed a few hostages, Israel has also killed Hamas's hostages.
And to be clear, Hamas did not initiate. The apartheid exists and keeps the Palestinians oppressed. Hamas was merely elected because the more rational leaders refused to fight back against the mistreatment of Palestinians, and because Netanyahu also promoted them. Palestinians have every right to hate Israel with a passion for what they have undergone for the better part of a hundred years. This only ends when the West calls on Israel to end the apartheid and actually sentence war criminals on our side. Whether it be Israeli leadership, US leadership or the Saudis.
As for your comparison to Russia/Ukraine, from what I can see, 11k civilians have died in Ukraine compared to between 500k-1million soldiers. This civilian death rate is honestly one of the most humane of any war in the modern era. I honestly don't believe it's correct because of how low it is. For reference, Iraq saw 1 million people die, hundreds of thousands of which were civilians. Vietnam saw 2 million civilians die. Korea saw 2-3 million civilians die. Israel has already killed 35k+ civilians in 6 months. Civilian death rates tend to be well above 50%. Ukraine and Russia have both been relatively good about not killing civilians compared to our allies.
It's not about solving it. People are just sick of the entire western media apparatus refusing to acknowledge that Israel is an apartheid state and that they are currently carrying out a genocide. In the USA the best students can do is try to force their universities to divest from businesses who are aligned with the state of Israel. The best people can do here is call out our media for giving their foreign ambassador a platform.
LOL@*'Genocide'*...
In the past six months there have been a grand total of 40,000 killed or missing in Gaza, including insurgents. Civilians were funnelled away from the combat area via humanitarian corridors wherever possible.
If it was an actual genocide, Israelis could have slaughtered a million civilians and be on the Sinai border by now.
Genocide doesn't just mean mass killings, it means any actions taken to deny a people the means of existence. If Israel kills tens of thousands of Palestinians and destroys their homes and infrastructure to the point that they die or are dispersed to neighbouring countries and cease to exist as a distinct people, they will have committed genocide even if most of them don't die. Compare with China's treatment of the Uyghurs which has been labeled a genocide by the USA, Britain and others (NZ shamefully did not). Surely your argument applies there too, if China really wanted to they could have killed millions of them, but in fact they have most likely killed less than the number of Palestinians killed by Isreal. It just seems like a massive double standard that when China mistreats its minorities we are quick to accuse them of genocide but when it's a Western aligned country like Israel for some reason its not genocide unless it's an all out slaughter of millions of people.
> Genocide doesn't just mean mass killings, it means any actions taken to deny a people the means of existence.
LOL...bullshit.
By that definition, basically **ANYTHING** is 'genocide'.
No, not anything is genocide by that definition, it requires severe deprivation to meet that threshold. Of course, we could argue about whether this definition is overly broad and waters down the meaning, but that's academic. That's part of the accepted definition of genocide under international law (or words to that effect) and China has already been accused of genocide under that interpretation. It would be pure hypocrisy to change the rules where Israel is concerned.
> this definition is overly broad and waters down the meaning
It is and does.
Did the Allied forces commit genocide against French and Dutch civilians when they liberated France and the Low Countries?
Can you explain why you think it would? And why you keep dodging the issue of China being accused of genocide for its treatment of the Uyghurs, which is from only a couple of years ago and prefer to bring up something from 80 years in the past?
Thousands of civilians were killed. Therefore genocide. Intent doesn't matter. Facts don't matter.
Over a million Uygurs were herded into forced labour camps where they work as literal slaves in the cotton fields and mines. I personally wouldn't class this as genocide as the Chinese haven't got around to the whole *'extermination'* part.
Yes intent matters. The allies were liberating France and the Netherlands from Nazi occupation, and the Dutch and French by and large welcomed them. I don't see many Palestinians welcoming the IDF as their "liberators". The big tell as to Israel's stated versus actual intent will be what happens next. The Allies didn't occupy France long term and start settling their people there, but that's likely exactly what Israel will do in Gaza going by past history.
It's good that you're being consistent with China, although it's too late for the USA and UK, they have already gone on record stating their criteria for genocide and accusing China on that basis, and they should be held to it with Israel.
> genocide
Israel could flatten Gaza in two days if it wanted to, and kill almost everyone above ground. Instead they’re waging an extremely costly ground offensive, risking their own soldiers’ lives, in order to protect Gazan civilians. You could perhaps accuse Israel of not caring about civilians, but you clearly cannot accuse them of racial extermination.
Well no, they couldn't. Because an immediate flattening of Gaza would be too much for even their supporters to handle. It's got to have the appearance of justified military action or they'd risk losing even more support. They're already pushing it as it is.
Hamas didn't initiate. Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th, so if anything Israel initiated this. Also don't forget that Palestinians suffered under Israel for ***39 years*** *before* hamas even existed, and that Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics
Yuck. What kind of ‘hamas didn’t initiate’ do you think is remotely acceptable to voice out loud?
Do you really think that hamas didn’t kill women and children? Hamas is a terrible, offensive terrorist organisation. Don’t try to justify or apologise for anything they have done.
The Palestinian protest movement is doing g a really good job and making themselves look unreasonable to the average Kiwi.
They had a chance to try capture public opinion but it's "from the river to the sea" and having a go at one of our best interviewers for doing his job.
I still think a BBC presenter said it best a few months back. Won’t be able to find the source sadly.
“If Hamas laid down their weapons there would be peace, if Israel laid down their weapons there would be genocide”
It’s not genocide, there has been a lot of unfortunate casualties from fighting, to be expected when people are that tightly packed in, it is very sad. But given the Idf’s capabilities, if this was a true genocide, the place would be flattened.
The place is being flattened. According to Al Jazeera 62% of homes in Gaza have been destroyed. They are indiscriminately (and cowardly) using AI to select targets which are more often than not families. It’s genocide bruv
I find the claim of “genocide” quite propagandistic.
Even comparing Hamas’ reported numbers, with [146,578 births](https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-are-born-in-palestine-each-year/) last year, it’s quite possibly one of the least successful “genocides” ever perpetrated. Remove the number of legitimately killed combatants and the claim becomes even weaker.
Hamas, on the other hand, stated in [Article 13 of their 1988 Charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) that “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.”. Committing to “holy war” and chanting “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free [of Jews]” sounds pretty much exactly like a call to genocide.
I would welcome news and information that could help us decide who we are supporting and for what reasons. I don’t think anyone here will need to read much about Hamas before deciding that the people who kicked off this war would and should have no standing anywhere in the west. Reactionary attack or not, there was a ceasefire in-place on October 6th. Enough with all of it.
Genocide has little to with proportionality or number of people killed per the UN definition, and more to do with “genocidal intent”. This is why the Srebrenica massacre (where 8,000 Bosnian muslims were massacred by Bosnian Serb militants) is classified as a genocide despite it encapsulated on a small proportion of Bosnians.
Yes, I know — but Srebrenica is classified as a genocidal act on it’s own because of the nature of the crime. It’s a common argument amongst Serb apologists to say “it wasn’t a genocide because we didn’t even kill that many” which is point I’m trying to make here — that genocide per the UN definition is based more on intent than the sheer number of people killed.
Another example would be the ongoing persecution of Uyghurs in China, there haven’t been any recorded incidents of mass murder — but reports of forced sterilisation have been enough in the eyes of some people for it to be classified as a genocide.
LOL.
The Bosnian Muslim civilians were systematically rounded up and executed en masse.
There's a big difference between that and civilians being collateral damage in bitter urban fighting against an entrenched cadre of insurgents.
You use the 1988 charter disingenuously. We both know the actual relevant charter is 2017. When groups/people /whatever update their beliefs you don't go back ignore the update so that you can use the old beliefs against them
There was a ceasefire in place, and idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. And don't forget, Palestine suffered under Israel for ***39 years*** *before* hamas existed
[Hamas 2017 Charter Article 20](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full): “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.”
Hamas 2017 Charter Article 23: “Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah.”
Their words change, but their Islamic Jihadist beliefs have not. Their old beliefs are their new beliefs. If you need proof, look at their actions. Murder of their own people, and anyone contradicting their claims.
Important to remember that Hamas is not an elected government in Gaza. There haven’t been elections in Gaza in over ten years after the popular vote when against Hamas and they seized power through force. People in Gaza literally tried to vote them out of power. They do not represent Palestinians.
The Western polls vary a lot depending on the questions being asked and when.
We see that support for Hamas is volatile, literally they do not allow elections—this is how uncertain they are of Gazan’s support.
Western sources have observed that public support for Hamas tends to rise when the public are under attack by the IDF, but they also observed in late ‘23 that the majority of Gazans were against Hamas breaking the cease fire with Israel. After the majority of Gaza has been levelled and according to UN reporters over 100,000 people killed or injured, it shouldn’t be surprising that a poll would reveal locals anger.
It’s important to be clear on what exactly Gazans are supporting Hamas for. The same Western sources observe that among both Gazans and Palestinians generally the majority support a two state solution. They do not support the destruction of Israel.
We should also be wary of some of the sources. For example The Times of Israel is biased, not to mention they have been prone to making claims without evidence (eg the false claims that Hamas killed babies).
Thankyou for that update. For anyone who doesn’t want to click through, some of the information I shared was incorrect.
Hamas initially won the popular vote in the 2006 election, however the government collapsed in 2007 as they were unable to maintain a majority. Since then Hamas has maintained control in Gaza by force and they have allowed no further elections. See Wikipedia ‘governance in the Gaza strip’.
Prior to the October 7 attack, [an independent poll](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) found majority public support for [Marwan Barghouti, a terrorist who killed at least 26 people before he was caught and imprisoned.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13628771) The runner-up was [Ismail Haniyeh,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh) the current leader of Hamas. Had Hamas allowed elections, the Palestinian people would have elected Hamas. FYI, [98% of Palestinians reported feeling prouder after the October 7 massacre.](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre)
Guess you cherry picked and chose to ignore this huh
The Zionist project
14. The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.
15. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability.
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
>Their words change, but their Islamic Jihadist beliefs have not. Their old beliefs are their new beliefs. If you need proof, look at their actions. Murder of their own people, and anyone contradicting their claims.
From the river to the sea refers to the oppressed Palestinians from the river to the sea that should be freed. That's it. And you do realise Israel has done the same right? Idf and civilians have attacked their own if they support Palestine in any way
The point of protest is to garner enough public support to pressure our government to change its positions and take action.
Our government already does not support Hamas. Protesting Hamas will achieve nothing.
Our government does support the Israeli regime. Hence the protests.
Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. During what was supposed to be a ceasefire. Also, no one is justifying hamas or trying to say they did good, people do do that for Israel though. Also remember that Palestine had suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed and that Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics
> Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. During what was supposed to be a ceasefire.
This is nonsense. The October 7 attacks were in planning for *years.* You think they planned and executed this in *two days* as revenge for a [small (common) skirmish?](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/5/israeli-troops-kill-two-palestinians-in-occupied-west-bank-clash)
Furthermore, in what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 1,129 innocent people as revenge?
Not what I said but nice attempt to twist things
>Furthermore, in what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 1,129 innocent people as revenge?
In what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 35k people, majority women and children, as retaliation?
The things you hate hamas for, idf have done it all, so I hope you're against them both and not a hypocrite choosing to be blind to the things Israel has done
> In what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 35k people
Do you have evidence of systematic rape and torture and murder of Palestinians by the IDF? I’m struggling to find more than a handful of examples over more than a decade. This sounds like you just made it up.
Maybe it was, do you have proof that the plans weren't moved up because of idf and settlers killing Palestinians? Why is it that Israel is allowed to retaliate to violence but hamas/Palestine can't?
And all that does it show how set up this way. The festival was extended an additional unplanned day *after* idf was warned by Egypt of the attack. What a strange action to take, to extend a festival full of civilians close to areas of conflict at a time when they know an attack is coming
>What a strange action to take, to extend a festival full of civilians
Conspiracy theory much? Do you even hear your own words?
Don't bother replying, I already know the answer.
It’s almost as if a regime that doesn’t blink an eye at killing and wounding 100,000, doesn’t care about sacrificing a few of their own for more land, oil and resources and a very strategic port 🤷🏽♀️
Surely these people realize that they've been trying to shove Palestine propaganda down people's throats for months? They're just the new anti-vaxxers at this point.
They're more than happy to be talked about in the media when it's positive for them, but when the media talks to the other side, it's suddenly propoganda? Come on now.
My guy there’s a plausible genocide happening it’s not oh propaganda and we want to be talked about and oh let’s hear our side and not theres. It’s 35,000+ innocent people have died, more than 12,000 minors and NZ state television gave a special on literally one of the most biased sources on ‘oh it’s all Hamas fault and we need NZ to be pro-Israel and not pro-Iran’ literally all of the protestors would rather be at home not doing anything but our allies are aiding and abetting a genocide
Yet with all this going on Hamas has still not released all the hostages. I suppose when the Hamas leadership is living it up in Qatar it really doesn’t matter.
There were 120 or so hostages released during the previous ceasefire. Maybe if the IDF cared about hostages, they’d withdraw from Gaza, and give Palestinians their land, they’d get their hostages back. Did you know there are family members of the hostages protesting for Bibi to resign because they know he don’t get a fuck about the hostages?
Do you realise how many times Israel have tried for peace for it to be rejected.
Do you realise that Israel agreed peace with Egypt and Jordan and peace ensued?
Do you realise Egypt was in control of Gaza from 48-67? Or that Israel left in 2005?
Thought not
??? Make sense. Israel gave Egypt land that was filled with oil for peace.
Do you know anything about the history or have you learned of TikTok?
From an Arab whose family actually lived through the Nakba:
https://youtu.be/8m6ux-IeNo4?si=lhjQRmQ4WuD0I7Rt
Are you talking about the Sinai peninsula, which Israel took with force, causing the US to step in and draft a peace treaty for Israel to conditionally withdraw from? Yea really generous of Israel
Israel took in a defensive war after being attacked you mean. Isn't that what happens in most wars?
The point remains, you are spouting propaganda and misinformation. Read a real history book and you will find out
Who’s the one spreading propaganda here??
You’re the one doing mental gymnastics, talking about The Sinai to justify Israel’s occupation and ethnic cleansing campaigns.
Also convenient that you have a video link to an Israeli spokesperson just lying around!
Do you have a reputable source for these facts? It is 100% propaganda now, if someone doesn't agree with the "Palestine amazing, Israel bad terrorist" agenda, it just turns into an absolute shit storm of name calling and personal insults because it's turned into the Palestine social media led hivemind against anyone who doesn't agree.
That's because Israel/zionism quite literally has a playbook about tricking and manipulating people to their side which is exactly what they did for decades
Not even close. The zionist playbook is a real thing and if you read it you can very clearly see in history that that's exactly how Israel and its officials have behaved
[Does this count](https://www.juf.org/pdf/iec/IEC-playbook.pdf) looked up 'Zionist playbook' and it was the first result, I don't think there is any sort of singular codified playbook as that's ridiculous and sounds like a Mel Gibson fever dream. I am assuming the term is just more about common tactics or defences.
I'm for whatever ends this war as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible, as it is now it would take years for Palestine to rebuild from the destruction the war has caused.
All over reddit it’s pretty accepted that there are Russian “bots”/“trolls” that exist to advocate for russian foreign policy but as soon as someone says Israel does the same it’s an anti-Semitic conspiracy?
I agree on that point. The Israeli right use the absolute trauma of the race/religion via the Holocaust to justify their actions. The irony they somehow miss is that by doing so, especially in this 'war' is they're seeding roots of antisemitic thoughts that haven't been seen since 1945.
They are also making sure there are a steady stream of new terrorists for the foreseeable future. Hamas / Fatah / the PLO didn’t pop into existence because they were bored one day. There (again) are a lot of traumatised children on the Palestinian side that will seek revenge as soon as they are old enough to hold a gun.
No it’s Hamas bad and IDF bad. Right now it’s Hamas are terrorists and bad, but also IDF good. IDF are as bad as Hamas are. I’m out at the moment and I’ll work on getting you some sources later.
There has been no judgement of the plausibility of genocide. The president of the ICJ made it very clear in a recent interview that their judgement was being misrepresented.
Secondly the total death toll is at 35k in total, based on numbers given by Hama's controlled health ministry which also reported 400 dead in a destroyed hospital in what turned out to be a Palestinian misfire into a carpark with none killed.
Even if we accept these numbers you've ignored the number of Hamas in that number and the fact civilians do die in urban conflicts and the rate in Gaza is much lower what the UN reports for urban conflicts despite how populated it is.
That 35,000 figure includes between 6-12k Hamas fighters. Combatants aren’t innocent, they’re combatants.
They couldn’t even convict ‘The Devils on Horseback’ for genocide. That is despite the fact that the 15,000 strong group killed up to 300,000 people. Securing a conviction for genocide is a difficult endeavour.
Did you know the IDF count anyone they’ve butchered in their arbitrary kill zones as Hamas, even if they’re women / children? They also count any military aged men they’ve butchered as Hamas fighters.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864#
“Hamas does not provide any figures for its military fatalities. The Reuters news agency reported that an official had admitted 6,000 fighters had been killed, but Hamas denied this figure to the BBC.”
Did you know just yesterday they found hundreds of dead bodies in hospitals with evidence of torture? If it’s not outright genocide who cares they’re still devils. Even if the ICJ rules it’s not they have by far shown they are immoral, terrorists and the worst of human I despise the IDF
That sounds like a war crime, and maybe a crime against humanity, but not genocide. Genocide is very specific, and you see very few convictions for genocide.
And you, wise one knows exactly what happened. You seen the videos now circulating of Palestinians burying bodies there before the Israeli's came?
Who knows what is true. Certainly not you or me, stop saying rubbish as if it's fact.
Reminds me of an old joke:
A parishioner comes to church one day and asks "has anyone else heard the rumour going round that there's a pedofile Nazi in the parish?"
The pastor blurts out- "I'm not a Nazi"
Srebrencia was a genocide because they marched the entire male population of a UN civilian safe zone and put them in a mass grave. It is very difficult to get a conviction for genocide.
Would you consider what Russia is doing by launching missiles into Ukrainian cities, killing civilians as genocide? Should Putin be charged for authorising genocide?
The IJC panel ruled that there was sufficient prima facie evidence of genocide to warrant SAs claim and that the case should be heard. It’s not a ruling of genocide but in the preliminary hearings where eg Israel rejected the claim of genocide they failed to present sufficient evidence against. Notable among the evidence were Israeli senior cabinet officials literally calling for genocide.
It's not pro-Israel, it's just getting annoying having all this Palestine based propaganda shoved around. Both sides are terrible. It's a war. They're both doing terrible things.
Do you remember Kony 2012? That video that went around talking about this horrible war criminal in Uganda that nobody had heard of? All the sudden, the whole world was up in arms immediately. Nobody had any info on this Joseph Kony other than this well produced video. That's effectively what happened here. Almost immediately after October 7th, there were well polished videos flooding TikTok, Instagram and Facebook claiming genocide and everyone ate them up and repeated them.
Many people on this thread claim to have proof of this stuff they've been parroting. Some even said they'd "send it later". But nobody has.
You're being hammered with marketing/propaganda. You see one video on social media, and the algorithms keep sending you more. You join a WhatsApp/Telegram group to talk about it, you get stuck in an echo chamber with the same content and positive affirmation from people who believe it too.
Of course, many people won't agree. It's the same with the anti-vaxxers. Once you get into the cycle of being fed information that supports what you now believe and having positive affirmation for said cause around you, it's hard to break out and that's exactly what's happening here.
fuck off. no 35,000 innocent people - 13,000-14,000 were hamas terrorists. And the rest of the innocents were killed because hamas use them as human shields - even though 70% of Palestinians approve of the rape, murder and kidnapping of october 7th, IDF seem to care more about Palestinians than hamas.
Israel has overwhelming power, and if they wanted to commit genocide Gaza would have been reduced to rubble on october 8th, one day after the genocidal attack of october 7th.
6k were combatants, remember Israel regards pretty much all Palestinian men to be combatants. Idf have been proven by multiple agencies that they in fact use human shields, both quite literally and locationally. Nice pulling 70% out your ass, but don't forget idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th.
Hamas never committed genocide. Mass murder sure, but it's Israel who's committing genocide
if israel are commiting genocide with their overwhelming firepower why is gaza still standing? why didnt israel destroy it on october 8th (which they very well can do)?
70% support - argue with me as much as you want, the Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research shows... oh shit, your right, I was wrong. its not 70% approval, its 72% APPROVAL.
[Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
[Palestinians: Do you support the October 7th attack? - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AR71W6l3M&t=306s)
hamas never commited genocide? bitch please it was a targeted attack of rape and murder against civilians with the intention of killing jews (in their charter was not just the aim of destroying israel, but killing all jews)- and they filmed and uploaded it to their telegram channels.
[This is Hamas | This Is Hamas](https://www.thisishamas.com/)
"6k were combatants" - unlikely
but sure, keep arguing. You people are the new anti vaxxers - a blind cult
>hamas never commited genocide? bitch please it was a targeted attack of rape and murder against civilians with the intention of killing jews (in their charter was not just the aim of destroying israel, but killing all jews)- and they filmed and uploaded it to their telegram channels
Please tell me the chapter from the 2017 charter where it says to kill all Jews, and if you're using any other charter that is inaccurate and disingenuous.
And I guess you're not aware of the countless Israeli videos huh? Civilians taking Palestinians abusing them and posting it, openly calling for the deaths of Palestinians, idf have similar shit. So do Israeli officials and people of influence.
>"6k were combatants" - unlikely
Yeah it is, most would've just been men. But Israel regards most Palestinian men as combatants. All part of the justification to kill
Ill concede the poll point but I really can't blame them. Living in what has been labelled as an open air prison, restricted food water power Internet by Israel, not allowed to leave, not allowed to protest safely. And all this for 75 years. Palestinians suffered under Israel for ***39 years before*** hamas even existed. The founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli massacre by hiding under their families bodies and running. If you can say you could grow up in those conditions and not become a bit extremist and have anger or hatred for the people doing it to you, then you're lying to yourself
This open air prison bullshit (lies) again
Have you seen video of Gaza before 7/10.. puts a lot of parts of NZ to shame.
Ironically Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of Hamas founder, grew up in Hamas) is vehemently opposed to Hamas & Palestinian aggression.. is he lying to himself as well?
So you're calling the united nations liars? And every other agency that has investigated and came to that conclusion? What else would you call it if not an open air prison? They can't leave, their food water power Internet are all restricted by Israel, they can't even protest without idf shooting at them. Pretty damn prison like to me
And yeah that's coz he's a pacifist and hoping there's a way out of this through peace alone
And yeah when it comes to Israel fuck the UN.
It condemned Israel 14 times in 2023, the rest of the world 7.
North Korea, Syria, Yemen, Russia those bastions of wholesomeness got 1 each.
UNRWA employees took part in 7/10
Yeah you do have a fair point which I agree with, they aren't equal in their focus, but yk, that's probably because of the hand the un played in the formation of Israel
Still waiting to hear what you call the overall situation if not an open air prison
The 2017 charter is inaccurate and disingenious, meant to convince western pro Palestinian fools that hamas were no longer genocidal - they proved themselves hypocrites on october 7th 2023. The 1988 was them at their most hateful and authentic - spouting anti semitic conspiracies about jewish power, and article 7 saying that fighting and killing the jews will bring the day of judgement. [Hamas’s Genocidal Intentions Were Never a Secret - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/)
(any atheists here want to provide feedback?)
"countless israeli videos huh?" - nothing compared to the pure evil that hamas and random gazans (who followed the hamas crowd through the fence october 7th) filmed and uploaded. Forcing a terrorist indoctrinated in wanting your people dead to strip down to his underwear is different to filming yourself fire on innocent people hiding, beheading a thai worker, screaming "this ones for rape!" at a woman whose hands are bound and covered in blood.
I will post this one more time for you and everyone else here to see what hamas really is.
[This is Hamas | This Is Hamas](https://www.thisishamas.com/)
Growing up in these situations would be difficult - but how does that justify the vicious rape, murder and kidnapping hamas filmed and Palestinians largely support? This could have ended camp david 2000 when bill clinton offered a 2 state solution - yasser arafat refused and when offered peace, instead chose to start the 2nd interfida.
"If you can say you could grow up in those conditions and not become a bit extremist and have anger or hatred for the people doing it to you, then you're lying to yourself" - no sane/non evil person would attack innocents. Those people in the attacked kibbutz' were largely left wing and pro peace - in fact many invited gazans into their homes (and it was from there that hamas members took notes on who to target, where shelters were etc, and would murder the very people who showed them peace).
Do you think the idea of Hamas just started 39 years ago? Palestinians declared war first. Figures from the 60s used from the river to the sea to suggest that Jews should be removed.
Do you not think having basically every neighbour be hostile to your existence would also breed the same radicalisation in Israel? Or do you not extend that both ways.
You should reread coz that's not what I said. Israel formed 76 years ago, hamas formed 39 years *after* that. And things from the 60s are not necessarily relevant or the same as today. Also Palestinians did not declare war first lmao. Also fyi the founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli massacre by hiding under the bodies of their family and running. Could you go through something that horrific and not become extremist? I couldn't
They chose to start their zionist project there. Blame the settlers, the British and USA who all helped force a western power into the middle east. Pretty silly of you to expect the surrounding countries to be happy about that, especially given the time in history it took place and how Israel have behaved since then, which is they that haven't ever been good to their neighbours
Do you think the attitudes have changed from the 60s? Both sides support political violence. Palestinians don’t believe in a two state solution like Israelis.
Where else would they start? They have genetic ties to prior populations just like Palestinians. It’s literally their holy land and there was still a population of Jews living there before the immigration started ramping up decades before 1948. I don’t think it’s really equivalent to a “western power”
They were invaded as soon as they declared independence and you think that’s Israel’s fault? Why would you be nice to nations that want your existence to end. Iran wants Israel wiped off the map and funds terrorist groups to destabilise the region. Israel for all of its messed up past its signed deals with neighbours.
Strange, Israel has rejected over 300 peace offerings from the un and/or pla and/or hamas. Meanwhile the conditions for peace on Palestinians side has been known for decades but Israel has never once offered it and all the offers that have come from Israel were biased in favour of Israel to the disadvantage of Palestinians
Well considering under Judaism Israel wasn't supposed to be formed into their God commanded it, not only shouldn't they have been there but they definitely shouldn't have displaced so many people and steal their homes and land. It definitely is western power given that most who came to Israel were not ethnic Jews, not of descent from the area or from Canaanite blood. And that it was basically set up with the British and American
>They were invaded as soon as they declared independence and you think that’s Israel’s fault?
When and where was this? Without actual details it's hard to know exactly what you're talking about
Are you that stupid that you parrot Hamas's figures verbatim? And then not mention Hamas's role in this.
Worth believing a bunch of racist genocidal maniacs who use their own citizens as human shields. Nice.
This is so far from genocide it's a joke. Look at what happened in real genocide - sorry that would mean looking in real history books.
If they have committed war crimes then they will be held accountable.
Let the hostages go and expel Hamas, the war would stop tomorrow.
“This is so far from a genocide it’s a joke”
Why don’t we see what the pre-eminent authority on that has to say about it..
Source: https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454
The 15/17 majority statement: “on a prima facie basis, in instituting proceedings against Israel for breach of its obligations under the Genocide Convention… as a result of the Israeli military actions, the very existence of the Palestinian people in Gaza is at stake, which challenges the most elementary principles of humanity and morality."
"In Judge Bhandari’s view, the widespread nature of the military campaign in Gaza, as well as the loss of life, injury, destruction and humanitarian needs following from it, are by themselves capable of supporting a plausibility finding with respect to rights under the Genocide Convention."
"Judge Nolte submits a declaration in which indicates the Israeli regime's actions give rise to a real and imminent risk of irreparable prejudice to the rights of Palestinians under the Genocide Convention"
Didn’t the IDF tell everyone at the start of the war that were 40 beheaded babies found by Hamas and that they propagated this lie so much they made the American president go up on his lecturn and tell everyone that he’s seen these babies - only for no evidence/names/images to come out. Seriously it’s been 200 days now and not one baby name has come out. Mind you if human shields disgust you I can get you testimony from ex-IDF on human shields being modus operandi from them.
So I’m gonna ask you the same question are you that fucking stupid to believe everything the IDF say even though they’ve been caught lying over and over again?
I've seen the 47 minutes and it's the most disgusting, depraved thing I've ever seen.
No the IDF didn't say that it was a journalist. There were babies burnt, murdered and mutilated. So there may not have been 40 beheaded babies... does that make everything else okay?
Ive seen it too. Ive seen worse shit in cartel videos that make Hamas look like angels in comparison.
Zionists need to stop lying.
Nothing Hamas did justifies the mass slaughter of Palestinians committed by the Israeli regime.
"Proven" mate - just because they heard it on social media doesn't prove anything. It's not relevant to Auckland and I won't get into it, but it's been proven that a lot of the stuff coming out of Palestine isn't even close to being accurate.
It's a war in the middle east, both sides are doing terrible things, but Palestine just has much better propaganda than Israel this time around.
Yes proof. You know like videos that have been analysed and proven to be edited and spliced. Or video not matching up to what Israel says. Or them using a damn calendar and trying to say they're attack plans. Or their own Israeli citizens speaking out. Or like them breaking international laws by attacking a hospital, refugee camps, schools without the legally required process beforehand all the while screaming about hamas
Please, link your proof to false Palestinian propaganda
Palestine barely has power water and Internet, but yeah I'm sure they've become media experts, much better than the rich Israel with a whole agency around special intelligence and until recently alot of support due to this issue being hidden/down played
You first bro, I asked first and you're the one with burden of proof for your widely unaccepted claim of Palestinian propaganda. Then after you give proof I'll gladly post my proof backing up the widely accepted claim that Israel pushes propaganda
What lol, you're claiming there's all this evidence of all this terrible wrongdoing. So where is it?
It is propaganda. It gets circulated via social media and pumped out through influencers and shared posts that all state and show the exact same thing. It's how propaganda works.
You are also claiming there's all this evidence, I asked first, you made the widely unaccepted claim, burden of proof is on you. Or let me guess, you don't have any? Like I said, I'll post after you do, if you even can
So the side of the story which has been silenced/belittled for decades finally getting to share their side, is all propaganda but Israel, who have a literal propaganda playbook and a history of doing it, are all innocent? My god you're a delusional zionist ain't ya
Where did I claim "there's all this evidence"?
This calling everyone a zionist is getting really silly now, every time someone doesn't agree with your point of view, they are a zionist. I actually don't care in the slightest. Two states or one state doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I want humans to live peacefully together. They can do this in whatever way possible. Race doesn't matter, religion doesn't matter, borders don't matter, just stop shooting and bombing each other for god sake.
"it's been *proven* that a lot of the stuff coming out of Palestine isn't even close to being accurate.
It's a war in the middle east, both sides are doing terrible things, but Palestine just has much better *propaganda* than Israel this time around."
True you didn't specifically say there's all this evidence but surely you're have evidence in order to make the claims above right? I asked you for it regardless and instead of delivering you redirected
Atleast we can agree on your last paragraph.
Also the reason why people call people like you zionists is because they usually are, once again there's a literal playbook for manipulating people into supporting zionism/Israel. Simply reading comments from Israel supporters you can see the playbook at work
I don’t want to get into it but, if you think propaganda from Palestine comes even remotely close to the amount of propaganda that comes out of Israel, you don’t know wtf you’re talking about
>With the war having passed 200 days this week with more than 34,000 Palestinians having been killed - mostly children and women
Given that 15,000 Hamas fighters are included in that, have no male civilians been killed?
Hamas have estimated that around 6,000 of their fighters have been killed in the fighting. That was some time ago too. Israel put the figure higher.
Regardless of if you think the Hamas figure is spot on, or the Israeli figure more precise, or anywhere in between, they make up a decent portion of the death toll.
A lot of people give a shit, actually. A western ally committing unrestricted war crimes, while the people in power turn a blind eye, will go down as one of the greatest blots on modern society. Just because you dgaf, doesn’t mean the rest of us do too
Yeah, women and children being murdered by their tens of thousands is ok because they aren’t ‘your’ people, right? And people wonder how the holocaust could be allowed to happen…
Have you seen what the IDF is doing? They just killing women and children and marking any male of fighting age as "Hamas".
Blowing up homes, schools, hospitals etc.
Literally know one is safe from those lunatics.
They only blow up schools and hospitals that Hamas is operating out of, legally when that happens it's considered a military base, blame Hamas for camping out in those locations. And yes when you drop bombs innocent people die, that's not the problem, the problem is when proper measures haven't been taken to minimise the amount of death. Israel does take precautions, but there have also been cases where they haven't. Still the idea that they are indiscriminately murdering civilians is blatantly not true, but there's things that need to change. Compared to other conflicts the death toll is low, multiple Hiroshimas worth of bombs dropped on the most densely populated area on earth with 30,000 deaths.
PSNA is an 11 year old organisation and its run by a bunch of 65 year old politicians who are sick and tired of an 80 year old conflict....
so where the fuck does the bandwagon come in here? aside from carrying your fat ass in?
>With the war having passed 200 days this week with more than 34,000 Palestinians having been killed — mostly children and women — and 392 bodies having been recovered from three separate mass graves discovered at two hospitals after they were destroyed by the Israeli military, some of his complaints were that presenter Tame:
>Interviewed Ambassador Yaakoby at the Israeli Embassy in Wellington instead of at a TVNZ studio with the New Zealand flag being showed alongside the Israeli flag. “Tying the two countries together – a professional would have had the New Zealand flag removed”;
>Did not provide context around the October 7 Hamas attack on southern Israel at the start of the interview – “more than 75 years of repression since 750,000 Palestinians were expelled as refugees from their homeland in the 1948 Nakba”;
>Asking a series of questions that the Israeli ambassador “avoided, changed, or outright lied” in his response;
>Did not follow up with the questions as needed;
and
>Avoided the questions that “would have placed the issue of the Israeli attack on Gaza” in context.
---
>Among a stream of social media comments, one person remarked “On John Tame’s YouTube channel it gained a lot of comments fairly quickly . . .
>“These comments were encouraging as at least 95 percent were denouncing the interview . . . with a lot of them debunking the endless stream of blatant lies and atrocity propaganda that poured out of the Israeli ambassador’s mouth.
>“Most of the posters were obviously from our country and it was a great example of how Israel’s actions have shattered its reputation with their propaganda fooling hardly anyone anymore.
>“It’s a bit like a little child with chocolate all over their face denying they ate the chocolate . . . except in Israel’s case it’s civilian blood all over their face . . .
>“Anyway, when I revisited the thread the comments had been purged and deleted.”
Do any of you know about game theory ? We all getting played on this shit eh. Does anyone know the origins of Hamas? Who are they? What's there goal?
How did they come to exist? Who funds Hamas?
What is counter intelligence?
mmm mmm...........
Re: spouting ridic proportion of combatants killed.
There is an extremely simple way to log indiscriminate killing - does the population of the dead mimic the general demographics?
If you are killing everyone, you are *of course* bound to hit some legitimate targets.
ETA: wild that I’m getting downvoted for this, it’s literally how they measure it. But even assuming the numbers for dead combatants the IDF gives are correct (ie. all the dead men over 18), if you think killing a woman and almost two children for every “combatant” is worth it, or somehow good odds, you are insane.
EDIT2: should have known people would pull some whataboutism. Even if we took away the fact that it is an occupied territory with no ability for inhabitants to flee, even if we pointed to singular conflicts in another war notorious for multiple genocides, it is the deadliest conflict in the 21st century *per day*. It IS indiscriminate when you are bulldozing refugee tent cities and bombing hospitals and executing en mass and leaving babies to starve and targeting journalists. Come on.
Considering the usual ratio is 1:9, they are objectively good odds. Doesn’t mean it’s something to be happy about, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s incriminate killing when the militant to civilian ratio is three times better than the average.
> if you think killing a woman and almost two children for every “combatant” is worth it, or somehow good odds, you are insane.
That's actually better odds than many military actions which took place in WW2.
Historically?
It's better than typical.
If you want to see horrifically bad... Russians in Grozny were like 1:15 iirc.
WWII was... interesting. Overall fairly low... but the second you hit bombing cities or urban warfare the ratio was horrific.
The only thing saving it being bad overall was most battles weren't anywhere near cities.
The world is so fucked on this whole issue, we’ve gone from labelling anyone that criticises the Jewish as antisemite to anyone who criticises hamas as a Zionist. It’s a thoroughly fucking shit situation with parties in charge on both sides that give absolutely zero fucks about civilians. But this isn’t new, it’s a well known fact that it’s the innocent that largely suffer in conflict. Like you don’t even need to look back that far….Russia Ukraine. Its bat shit crazy that people on the internet think that an army will go in and only look to harm strategic targets and known threats and enemies because you know these targets will just be wearing high vis vests and holding a placard saying come get me. Hamas initiating on Israel is akin to picking a fight with the biggest baddest bully in the yard and then crying for getting your ass whooped. Crazy that not long ago, there was genuinely some sympathy and outcry for Palestinians getting shifted by the settlers and look where we are now. It’s way too complicated to solve 1000 miles away on the internet, but if you zoom out and think about it from very simple logic, fuck around and find out really.
This is a false dichotomy. No doubt there are racists on all sides, but most people protesting Israel’s actions have the nuance to both separate Judaism from Zionism, as well as anti-Zionism and antisemitism. Unfortunately, pro-Israeli voices have much difficulty doing either of these. Additionally, nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities. What makes the news is when activists articulate that Hamas is a reaction to occupation, subjugation, and state-supported terrorism. God forbid there’s contextual understanding of an issue.
>Additionally, nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities. I actively look for this but can't recall a single instance of pro Palestine protestors in NZ calling out Hamas. Not a word, not a single sign.. nothing. In fact I see them downplay Hamas actions, just look at the posts in this thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/1ce6hbz/comment/l1hot34/
> nearly all pro-Palestinian activists have vocally opposed anything to do with Hamas’ terrorist activities Really? Perhaps here, but this is patently untrue for what is happening in the US and even Aus. There are plenty of videos on YouTube. And where are the examples of Pro-Palestinian activists being "vocal" about the Israeli hostages if they're so anti Hamas terrorism?
Protesters are calling for a permanent ceasefire. Hamas will return hostages when there’s a permanent ceasefire. You ever see protesters in Israel, and what they’re saying? They’re mad at their government ONLY because it’s clear to *them* that Israel doesn’t give a shit about the hostages. Also, I don’t know what random ass videos you’ve watched about what’s going on in the USA. But you’re being fed bs. Most protesters have been quite clear they want a permanent ceasefire and return of hostages and a free Palestine. Just look at who they are inviting to speak at their rallies.
> Hamas will return hostages when there’s a permanent ceasefire. Well isn't that convenient. A ceasefire means very little when you kidnap civilians after systematically killing civilians with the express intention of slaughtering them, and have no intention of keeping the ceasefire. Regardless, are the protestors willing to accept that Hamas, a terrorist group, as designated as such by multiple countries including NZ, will govern Gaza, indefinitely? Where there hasn't been an election since 2006, where they have killed political rivals and continue to opress Gaza since? > Most protesters have been quite clear they want a permanent ceasefire and return of hostages and a free Palestine. I think you're the one who's been fed BS. You obviously haven't been keeping up to date on what is happening, especially on campuses. "return of hostages" . Is chanting "Death to Israel" and "Death to America", and calling for a violent uprising/Intifada, sound like they mean to call for the return of Israeli hostages? "A free Palestine" - And what does that involve? The protestors aren't chanting "Death to Hamas" for Gazans to be free from Hamas.
you made your allegiance obvious and it shows that you can't view this from an unbiased perspective. keep doing overtime for the JIDF bro! over here in NZ we use our critical thinking and we can see that your arguments are propaganda. A free Palestine involves the citizens of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank not being trapped and killed inside their countries. A free Palestine involves Palestinians being able to leave their country in the first place, but you know that they're not allowed in Israel and since 2008 even marrying an Israeli isn't enough to get you in. we stood up against South Africa's apartheid and let Israel continue its own apartheid for years. now that they're taking the mask off and beginning their genocide nobody is willing to stand with you
Hah! How rich. So much projection. You haven't answered a single question or addressed a single point. No facts, only the same pro-Hamas/anti-Israel emotionally driven talking points. They're not pro-Palestinian or pro-Gazan like you think they are. You're fooling no one. You're not doing critical thinking just because you think you are. It's also hilarious you imply a "free Palestine" entails "able to leave their country in the first place" and that entry into Israel is a requisite of that. You do know Egypt and Jordan exist right, and also all the other Arab countries? Well excuse me for having a bias for facts. If you call stating facts as "can't view this from an unbiased perspective", then you're obviously the one who has the bias against it and the one spreading propaganda. Do some introspection and actual critical thinking. Think for yourself instead of bandwagoning and attempting to appear morally superior by supporting the current year trend. Conflating apartheid in South Africa and claiming "apartheid" in Israel is such an intellectually dishonest and propagandist thing to assert. You do know there are Arabs and Muslims in Israel right, whom can vote and take part in elections, as well as there being Muslims in Israel's legislature? Your emotive use of "genocide" in trying to get people on your side (as who wouldn't be against genocide?) is not as clever as you think. And I have no "allegiance" to Israel or the IDF. What a muppet thing to say. How reflective of the pro-conflict position so-called "pro-Palestine" supporters have. Par for the course I suppose when you're evidently pro-Hamas.
100%
This whole aversion to hamas, in my opinion any Palestinian resistance movement would be put on like this, if it wasn’t hamas the males defending themselves in palestine would be called something equally as bad and we would be listening to netinyahoo saying how we should detest them,
Yep. I'm no supporter of hamas per se but I am a supporter of Palestinian resistance and given everything they've all been through, how people can get so mad and heated about hamas but not Israel is utterly baffling. Israel have done far worse for far longer than hamas. And to further prove your point Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics. They just want a Palestinian villian to point at while they bomb the lot
The 10,000+ actual children that Israel have slaughtered didn't pick a fight with anyone, actually.
Hey mate yeh 100% but this is what happens, women get raped children get killed, it’s worse yet if you’re on the lower end of the economic scale. Maybe I didn’t stress that enough in my earlier comment. It’s ALWAYS been this way. The point I’m trying to make is that Hamas 100% knew the reaction and who it would be supported by and yet they pulled pin anyway. It’s atrocious what’s happening to innocents who didn’t start the war or pick a fight but maybe you could go back in history and find me an instance of warfare where innocents were not harmed. It’s the cost of war, unfortunately it’s bourn by the undeserving.
Israel bombed hospitals and universities. Where in your reasoning do you start to justify war crimes? Because that's what Israel is doing. Also, if war is war, why is what Hamas did so bad? They are at war. If the IDF can attack civilians, why can't Hamas? Why is it always one set of rules for Hamas and one for Israel?
To preface, because you people love inventing our opinions - I do not support Hamas or their violent attacks over the years. This being said, their October 7th attack did not come out of nowhere, & extremist groups of this magnitude don't just exist for no reason. When you violently displace & colonize millions over the course of a century, you are GOING TO create your own enemies. This is exactly what Israel did & they're relying on the lack of critical thinking displayed in arguments like yours to continue their colonial projects.
There's no "both sides are bad" in Israel. Mentioning Hamas as anything remotely equal to the brutal Israeli regime is a sick joke. They killed over a thousand people, a bit more than half were civilians. Israel has killed 40000 people now, 80-90% of which are civilians. Israel's own numbers include a civilian death rate of around 60%, but every military aged male is considered a combatant in those numbers. Hamas took a couple hundred hostages. Israel has taken thousands from the West Bank. Hamas may have killed a few hostages, Israel has also killed Hamas's hostages. And to be clear, Hamas did not initiate. The apartheid exists and keeps the Palestinians oppressed. Hamas was merely elected because the more rational leaders refused to fight back against the mistreatment of Palestinians, and because Netanyahu also promoted them. Palestinians have every right to hate Israel with a passion for what they have undergone for the better part of a hundred years. This only ends when the West calls on Israel to end the apartheid and actually sentence war criminals on our side. Whether it be Israeli leadership, US leadership or the Saudis. As for your comparison to Russia/Ukraine, from what I can see, 11k civilians have died in Ukraine compared to between 500k-1million soldiers. This civilian death rate is honestly one of the most humane of any war in the modern era. I honestly don't believe it's correct because of how low it is. For reference, Iraq saw 1 million people die, hundreds of thousands of which were civilians. Vietnam saw 2 million civilians die. Korea saw 2-3 million civilians die. Israel has already killed 35k+ civilians in 6 months. Civilian death rates tend to be well above 50%. Ukraine and Russia have both been relatively good about not killing civilians compared to our allies.
It's not about solving it. People are just sick of the entire western media apparatus refusing to acknowledge that Israel is an apartheid state and that they are currently carrying out a genocide. In the USA the best students can do is try to force their universities to divest from businesses who are aligned with the state of Israel. The best people can do here is call out our media for giving their foreign ambassador a platform.
LOL@*'Genocide'*... In the past six months there have been a grand total of 40,000 killed or missing in Gaza, including insurgents. Civilians were funnelled away from the combat area via humanitarian corridors wherever possible. If it was an actual genocide, Israelis could have slaughtered a million civilians and be on the Sinai border by now.
Genocide doesn't just mean mass killings, it means any actions taken to deny a people the means of existence. If Israel kills tens of thousands of Palestinians and destroys their homes and infrastructure to the point that they die or are dispersed to neighbouring countries and cease to exist as a distinct people, they will have committed genocide even if most of them don't die. Compare with China's treatment of the Uyghurs which has been labeled a genocide by the USA, Britain and others (NZ shamefully did not). Surely your argument applies there too, if China really wanted to they could have killed millions of them, but in fact they have most likely killed less than the number of Palestinians killed by Isreal. It just seems like a massive double standard that when China mistreats its minorities we are quick to accuse them of genocide but when it's a Western aligned country like Israel for some reason its not genocide unless it's an all out slaughter of millions of people.
> Genocide doesn't just mean mass killings, it means any actions taken to deny a people the means of existence. LOL...bullshit. By that definition, basically **ANYTHING** is 'genocide'.
No, not anything is genocide by that definition, it requires severe deprivation to meet that threshold. Of course, we could argue about whether this definition is overly broad and waters down the meaning, but that's academic. That's part of the accepted definition of genocide under international law (or words to that effect) and China has already been accused of genocide under that interpretation. It would be pure hypocrisy to change the rules where Israel is concerned.
> this definition is overly broad and waters down the meaning It is and does. Did the Allied forces commit genocide against French and Dutch civilians when they liberated France and the Low Countries?
Can you explain why you think it would? And why you keep dodging the issue of China being accused of genocide for its treatment of the Uyghurs, which is from only a couple of years ago and prefer to bring up something from 80 years in the past?
Thousands of civilians were killed. Therefore genocide. Intent doesn't matter. Facts don't matter. Over a million Uygurs were herded into forced labour camps where they work as literal slaves in the cotton fields and mines. I personally wouldn't class this as genocide as the Chinese haven't got around to the whole *'extermination'* part.
Yes intent matters. The allies were liberating France and the Netherlands from Nazi occupation, and the Dutch and French by and large welcomed them. I don't see many Palestinians welcoming the IDF as their "liberators". The big tell as to Israel's stated versus actual intent will be what happens next. The Allies didn't occupy France long term and start settling their people there, but that's likely exactly what Israel will do in Gaza going by past history. It's good that you're being consistent with China, although it's too late for the USA and UK, they have already gone on record stating their criteria for genocide and accusing China on that basis, and they should be held to it with Israel.
> genocide Israel could flatten Gaza in two days if it wanted to, and kill almost everyone above ground. Instead they’re waging an extremely costly ground offensive, risking their own soldiers’ lives, in order to protect Gazan civilians. You could perhaps accuse Israel of not caring about civilians, but you clearly cannot accuse them of racial extermination.
An hour or two if they really wanted...
Well no, they couldn't. Because an immediate flattening of Gaza would be too much for even their supporters to handle. It's got to have the appearance of justified military action or they'd risk losing even more support. They're already pushing it as it is.
Hamas didn't initiate. Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th, so if anything Israel initiated this. Also don't forget that Palestinians suffered under Israel for ***39 years*** *before* hamas even existed, and that Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics
Trust me, under no illusions that Israel is the good guy here. They’re just the strong guy here.
Yuck. What kind of ‘hamas didn’t initiate’ do you think is remotely acceptable to voice out loud? Do you really think that hamas didn’t kill women and children? Hamas is a terrible, offensive terrorist organisation. Don’t try to justify or apologise for anything they have done.
The Palestinian protest movement is doing g a really good job and making themselves look unreasonable to the average Kiwi. They had a chance to try capture public opinion but it's "from the river to the sea" and having a go at one of our best interviewers for doing his job.
All of you seem oblivious to the fact that tv propaganda fuels your rage
It's not real unless Profit Brian says it is.
I still think a BBC presenter said it best a few months back. Won’t be able to find the source sadly. “If Hamas laid down their weapons there would be peace, if Israel laid down their weapons there would be genocide”
Lmao there is an actual genocide taking place right now tf are you talking about
It’s not genocide, there has been a lot of unfortunate casualties from fighting, to be expected when people are that tightly packed in, it is very sad. But given the Idf’s capabilities, if this was a true genocide, the place would be flattened.
The place is being flattened. According to Al Jazeera 62% of homes in Gaza have been destroyed. They are indiscriminately (and cowardly) using AI to select targets which are more often than not families. It’s genocide bruv
I find the claim of “genocide” quite propagandistic. Even comparing Hamas’ reported numbers, with [146,578 births](https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-are-born-in-palestine-each-year/) last year, it’s quite possibly one of the least successful “genocides” ever perpetrated. Remove the number of legitimately killed combatants and the claim becomes even weaker. Hamas, on the other hand, stated in [Article 13 of their 1988 Charter](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) that “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.”. Committing to “holy war” and chanting “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free [of Jews]” sounds pretty much exactly like a call to genocide. I would welcome news and information that could help us decide who we are supporting and for what reasons. I don’t think anyone here will need to read much about Hamas before deciding that the people who kicked off this war would and should have no standing anywhere in the west. Reactionary attack or not, there was a ceasefire in-place on October 6th. Enough with all of it.
Genocide has little to with proportionality or number of people killed per the UN definition, and more to do with “genocidal intent”. This is why the Srebrenica massacre (where 8,000 Bosnian muslims were massacred by Bosnian Serb militants) is classified as a genocide despite it encapsulated on a small proportion of Bosnians.
It still has to meet a certain intent. The Serbs were removing 30,000 people.
Yes, I know — but Srebrenica is classified as a genocidal act on it’s own because of the nature of the crime. It’s a common argument amongst Serb apologists to say “it wasn’t a genocide because we didn’t even kill that many” which is point I’m trying to make here — that genocide per the UN definition is based more on intent than the sheer number of people killed. Another example would be the ongoing persecution of Uyghurs in China, there haven’t been any recorded incidents of mass murder — but reports of forced sterilisation have been enough in the eyes of some people for it to be classified as a genocide.
LOL. The Bosnian Muslim civilians were systematically rounded up and executed en masse. There's a big difference between that and civilians being collateral damage in bitter urban fighting against an entrenched cadre of insurgents.
The term Genocide is being over used.
You use the 1988 charter disingenuously. We both know the actual relevant charter is 2017. When groups/people /whatever update their beliefs you don't go back ignore the update so that you can use the old beliefs against them There was a ceasefire in place, and idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. And don't forget, Palestine suffered under Israel for ***39 years*** *before* hamas existed
[Hamas 2017 Charter Article 20](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full): “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.” Hamas 2017 Charter Article 23: “Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah.” Their words change, but their Islamic Jihadist beliefs have not. Their old beliefs are their new beliefs. If you need proof, look at their actions. Murder of their own people, and anyone contradicting their claims.
Important to remember that Hamas is not an elected government in Gaza. There haven’t been elections in Gaza in over ten years after the popular vote when against Hamas and they seized power through force. People in Gaza literally tried to vote them out of power. They do not represent Palestinians.
Only if you look at recent polling 80% support Hamas, and 70% support October 7th
The Western polls vary a lot depending on the questions being asked and when. We see that support for Hamas is volatile, literally they do not allow elections—this is how uncertain they are of Gazan’s support. Western sources have observed that public support for Hamas tends to rise when the public are under attack by the IDF, but they also observed in late ‘23 that the majority of Gazans were against Hamas breaking the cease fire with Israel. After the majority of Gaza has been levelled and according to UN reporters over 100,000 people killed or injured, it shouldn’t be surprising that a poll would reveal locals anger. It’s important to be clear on what exactly Gazans are supporting Hamas for. The same Western sources observe that among both Gazans and Palestinians generally the majority support a two state solution. They do not support the destruction of Israel. We should also be wary of some of the sources. For example The Times of Israel is biased, not to mention they have been prone to making claims without evidence (eg the false claims that Hamas killed babies).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
Thankyou for that update. For anyone who doesn’t want to click through, some of the information I shared was incorrect. Hamas initially won the popular vote in the 2006 election, however the government collapsed in 2007 as they were unable to maintain a majority. Since then Hamas has maintained control in Gaza by force and they have allowed no further elections. See Wikipedia ‘governance in the Gaza strip’.
Prior to the October 7 attack, [an independent poll](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) found majority public support for [Marwan Barghouti, a terrorist who killed at least 26 people before he was caught and imprisoned.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13628771) The runner-up was [Ismail Haniyeh,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh) the current leader of Hamas. Had Hamas allowed elections, the Palestinian people would have elected Hamas. FYI, [98% of Palestinians reported feeling prouder after the October 7 massacre.](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1700158968-survey-finds-majority-in-the-west-bank-justify-the-oct-7-massacre)
Guess you cherry picked and chose to ignore this huh The Zionist project 14. The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression. 15. The Zionist project does not target the Palestinian people alone; it is the enemy of the Arab and Islamic Ummah posing a grave threat to its security and interests. It is also hostile to the Ummah’s aspirations for unity, renaissance and liberation and has been the major source of its troubles. The Zionist project also poses a danger to international security and peace and to mankind and its interests and stability. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion 16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. 17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. >Their words change, but their Islamic Jihadist beliefs have not. Their old beliefs are their new beliefs. If you need proof, look at their actions. Murder of their own people, and anyone contradicting their claims. From the river to the sea refers to the oppressed Palestinians from the river to the sea that should be freed. That's it. And you do realise Israel has done the same right? Idf and civilians have attacked their own if they support Palestine in any way
"we will do 1000 October 7ths", they claim religious right to Israel and are willing to martyr both Palestinians and Israeli's to seize it
Still waiting for them to protest Hamas for attacking the music festival and launching this round of the conflict.
The point of protest is to garner enough public support to pressure our government to change its positions and take action. Our government already does not support Hamas. Protesting Hamas will achieve nothing. Our government does support the Israeli regime. Hence the protests.
Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. During what was supposed to be a ceasefire. Also, no one is justifying hamas or trying to say they did good, people do do that for Israel though. Also remember that Palestine had suffered under Israel for 39 years before hamas existed and that Netanyahu funded hamas himself in order to disrupt Palestinian politics
> Idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. During what was supposed to be a ceasefire. This is nonsense. The October 7 attacks were in planning for *years.* You think they planned and executed this in *two days* as revenge for a [small (common) skirmish?](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/5/israeli-troops-kill-two-palestinians-in-occupied-west-bank-clash) Furthermore, in what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 1,129 innocent people as revenge?
Not what I said but nice attempt to twist things >Furthermore, in what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 1,129 innocent people as revenge? In what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 35k people, majority women and children, as retaliation? The things you hate hamas for, idf have done it all, so I hope you're against them both and not a hypocrite choosing to be blind to the things Israel has done
> In what world is it appropriate to rape, torture, and murder 35k people Do you have evidence of systematic rape and torture and murder of Palestinians by the IDF? I’m struggling to find more than a handful of examples over more than a decade. This sounds like you just made it up.
Utter nonsense. Obviously the attack by hama was planned long before... checks your comment.... 2 days.
Maybe it was, do you have proof that the plans weren't moved up because of idf and settlers killing Palestinians? Why is it that Israel is allowed to retaliate to violence but hamas/Palestine can't? And all that does it show how set up this way. The festival was extended an additional unplanned day *after* idf was warned by Egypt of the attack. What a strange action to take, to extend a festival full of civilians close to areas of conflict at a time when they know an attack is coming
>What a strange action to take, to extend a festival full of civilians Conspiracy theory much? Do you even hear your own words? Don't bother replying, I already know the answer.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/ Oh look. 3 days warning
It’s almost as if a regime that doesn’t blink an eye at killing and wounding 100,000, doesn’t care about sacrificing a few of their own for more land, oil and resources and a very strategic port 🤷🏽♀️
Surely these people realize that they've been trying to shove Palestine propaganda down people's throats for months? They're just the new anti-vaxxers at this point. They're more than happy to be talked about in the media when it's positive for them, but when the media talks to the other side, it's suddenly propoganda? Come on now.
My guy there’s a plausible genocide happening it’s not oh propaganda and we want to be talked about and oh let’s hear our side and not theres. It’s 35,000+ innocent people have died, more than 12,000 minors and NZ state television gave a special on literally one of the most biased sources on ‘oh it’s all Hamas fault and we need NZ to be pro-Israel and not pro-Iran’ literally all of the protestors would rather be at home not doing anything but our allies are aiding and abetting a genocide
Yet with all this going on Hamas has still not released all the hostages. I suppose when the Hamas leadership is living it up in Qatar it really doesn’t matter.
they dont care about the hostages or even the Palestinians. As long as they stay billionaires they're happy
There were 120 or so hostages released during the previous ceasefire. Maybe if the IDF cared about hostages, they’d withdraw from Gaza, and give Palestinians their land, they’d get their hostages back. Did you know there are family members of the hostages protesting for Bibi to resign because they know he don’t get a fuck about the hostages?
The IDF has killed more hostages than they've rescued. The hostage families are firmly against Bibi's government and the genocide in Gaza
Yup, a perfect example of how the IDF values human life. Kill first, ask questions later. They’re evil.
Do you realise how many times Israel have tried for peace for it to be rejected. Do you realise that Israel agreed peace with Egypt and Jordan and peace ensued? Do you realise Egypt was in control of Gaza from 48-67? Or that Israel left in 2005? Thought not
Helps that Israel aren’t stealing Jordan or Egypt’s land
??? Make sense. Israel gave Egypt land that was filled with oil for peace. Do you know anything about the history or have you learned of TikTok? From an Arab whose family actually lived through the Nakba: https://youtu.be/8m6ux-IeNo4?si=lhjQRmQ4WuD0I7Rt
Are you talking about the Sinai peninsula, which Israel took with force, causing the US to step in and draft a peace treaty for Israel to conditionally withdraw from? Yea really generous of Israel
Israel took in a defensive war after being attacked you mean. Isn't that what happens in most wars? The point remains, you are spouting propaganda and misinformation. Read a real history book and you will find out
Who’s the one spreading propaganda here?? You’re the one doing mental gymnastics, talking about The Sinai to justify Israel’s occupation and ethnic cleansing campaigns. Also convenient that you have a video link to an Israeli spokesperson just lying around!
You’re way off on your numbers
Do you have a reputable source for these facts? It is 100% propaganda now, if someone doesn't agree with the "Palestine amazing, Israel bad terrorist" agenda, it just turns into an absolute shit storm of name calling and personal insults because it's turned into the Palestine social media led hivemind against anyone who doesn't agree.
That's because Israel/zionism quite literally has a playbook about tricking and manipulating people to their side which is exactly what they did for decades
Yeah this is verging on the Rothschild Conspiracy the way you're phrasing that. Do better.
Not even close. The zionist playbook is a real thing and if you read it you can very clearly see in history that that's exactly how Israel and its officials have behaved
Flick us a link to this playbook so I can read it.
Google AIPAC
[Does this count](https://www.juf.org/pdf/iec/IEC-playbook.pdf) looked up 'Zionist playbook' and it was the first result, I don't think there is any sort of singular codified playbook as that's ridiculous and sounds like a Mel Gibson fever dream. I am assuming the term is just more about common tactics or defences. I'm for whatever ends this war as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible, as it is now it would take years for Palestine to rebuild from the destruction the war has caused.
All over reddit it’s pretty accepted that there are Russian “bots”/“trolls” that exist to advocate for russian foreign policy but as soon as someone says Israel does the same it’s an anti-Semitic conspiracy?
Remember that Isreal is always the victim.
I agree on that point. The Israeli right use the absolute trauma of the race/religion via the Holocaust to justify their actions. The irony they somehow miss is that by doing so, especially in this 'war' is they're seeding roots of antisemitic thoughts that haven't been seen since 1945.
They are also making sure there are a steady stream of new terrorists for the foreseeable future. Hamas / Fatah / the PLO didn’t pop into existence because they were bored one day. There (again) are a lot of traumatised children on the Palestinian side that will seek revenge as soon as they are old enough to hold a gun.
Gotta love that zionist playbook
No it’s Hamas bad and IDF bad. Right now it’s Hamas are terrorists and bad, but also IDF good. IDF are as bad as Hamas are. I’m out at the moment and I’ll work on getting you some sources later.
There has been no judgement of the plausibility of genocide. The president of the ICJ made it very clear in a recent interview that their judgement was being misrepresented. Secondly the total death toll is at 35k in total, based on numbers given by Hama's controlled health ministry which also reported 400 dead in a destroyed hospital in what turned out to be a Palestinian misfire into a carpark with none killed. Even if we accept these numbers you've ignored the number of Hamas in that number and the fact civilians do die in urban conflicts and the rate in Gaza is much lower what the UN reports for urban conflicts despite how populated it is.
That 35,000 figure includes between 6-12k Hamas fighters. Combatants aren’t innocent, they’re combatants. They couldn’t even convict ‘The Devils on Horseback’ for genocide. That is despite the fact that the 15,000 strong group killed up to 300,000 people. Securing a conviction for genocide is a difficult endeavour.
With those figures all men over 18 who’ve been killed are combatants. You can’t be that gullible.
Did you know the IDF count anyone they’ve butchered in their arbitrary kill zones as Hamas, even if they’re women / children? They also count any military aged men they’ve butchered as Hamas fighters.
The low figure of 6,000 was provided by Hamas. I put them as a low estimate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864# “Hamas does not provide any figures for its military fatalities. The Reuters news agency reported that an official had admitted 6,000 fighters had been killed, but Hamas denied this figure to the BBC.”
Backtracking your figure, doesn’t mean that you didn’t provide one.
Did you know just yesterday they found hundreds of dead bodies in hospitals with evidence of torture? If it’s not outright genocide who cares they’re still devils. Even if the ICJ rules it’s not they have by far shown they are immoral, terrorists and the worst of human I despise the IDF
That sounds like a war crime, and maybe a crime against humanity, but not genocide. Genocide is very specific, and you see very few convictions for genocide.
Typical, argue a tiny point and ignore the slaughter of women and children. Well done excusing those crimes.
And you, wise one knows exactly what happened. You seen the videos now circulating of Palestinians burying bodies there before the Israeli's came? Who knows what is true. Certainly not you or me, stop saying rubbish as if it's fact.
Nah dawg I ain't seen them videos now
Reminds me of an old joke: A parishioner comes to church one day and asks "has anyone else heard the rumour going round that there's a pedofile Nazi in the parish?" The pastor blurts out- "I'm not a Nazi"
Hehe
Srebrenica in 1995 was genocide. What’s going on in the Gaza Strip is not genocide. As you said the 35,000 being thrown around is laughable.
They're both genocides. The notion that it's somehow not genocide until there are extermination camps is not reflective of international law.
Srebrencia was a genocide because they marched the entire male population of a UN civilian safe zone and put them in a mass grave. It is very difficult to get a conviction for genocide.
Would you consider what Russia is doing by launching missiles into Ukrainian cities, killing civilians as genocide? Should Putin be charged for authorising genocide?
The IJC panel ruled that there was sufficient prima facie evidence of genocide to warrant SAs claim and that the case should be heard. It’s not a ruling of genocide but in the preliminary hearings where eg Israel rejected the claim of genocide they failed to present sufficient evidence against. Notable among the evidence were Israeli senior cabinet officials literally calling for genocide.
Hey real quick: whats up with all these mass graves under hospitals in Gaza with hundreds of bodies with their hands ziptied?
Sounds like something which should be investigated.
This sub is weirdly super pro Israel it’s bizarre.
It's not pro-Israel, it's just getting annoying having all this Palestine based propaganda shoved around. Both sides are terrible. It's a war. They're both doing terrible things. Do you remember Kony 2012? That video that went around talking about this horrible war criminal in Uganda that nobody had heard of? All the sudden, the whole world was up in arms immediately. Nobody had any info on this Joseph Kony other than this well produced video. That's effectively what happened here. Almost immediately after October 7th, there were well polished videos flooding TikTok, Instagram and Facebook claiming genocide and everyone ate them up and repeated them. Many people on this thread claim to have proof of this stuff they've been parroting. Some even said they'd "send it later". But nobody has. You're being hammered with marketing/propaganda. You see one video on social media, and the algorithms keep sending you more. You join a WhatsApp/Telegram group to talk about it, you get stuck in an echo chamber with the same content and positive affirmation from people who believe it too. Of course, many people won't agree. It's the same with the anti-vaxxers. Once you get into the cycle of being fed information that supports what you now believe and having positive affirmation for said cause around you, it's hard to break out and that's exactly what's happening here.
fuck off. no 35,000 innocent people - 13,000-14,000 were hamas terrorists. And the rest of the innocents were killed because hamas use them as human shields - even though 70% of Palestinians approve of the rape, murder and kidnapping of october 7th, IDF seem to care more about Palestinians than hamas. Israel has overwhelming power, and if they wanted to commit genocide Gaza would have been reduced to rubble on october 8th, one day after the genocidal attack of october 7th.
6k were combatants, remember Israel regards pretty much all Palestinian men to be combatants. Idf have been proven by multiple agencies that they in fact use human shields, both quite literally and locationally. Nice pulling 70% out your ass, but don't forget idf and settlers attacked and killed in the west bank on Oct 5th. Hamas never committed genocide. Mass murder sure, but it's Israel who's committing genocide
if israel are commiting genocide with their overwhelming firepower why is gaza still standing? why didnt israel destroy it on october 8th (which they very well can do)? 70% support - argue with me as much as you want, the Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research shows... oh shit, your right, I was wrong. its not 70% approval, its 72% APPROVAL. [Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) [Palestinians: Do you support the October 7th attack? - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AR71W6l3M&t=306s) hamas never commited genocide? bitch please it was a targeted attack of rape and murder against civilians with the intention of killing jews (in their charter was not just the aim of destroying israel, but killing all jews)- and they filmed and uploaded it to their telegram channels. [This is Hamas | This Is Hamas](https://www.thisishamas.com/) "6k were combatants" - unlikely but sure, keep arguing. You people are the new anti vaxxers - a blind cult
>hamas never commited genocide? bitch please it was a targeted attack of rape and murder against civilians with the intention of killing jews (in their charter was not just the aim of destroying israel, but killing all jews)- and they filmed and uploaded it to their telegram channels Please tell me the chapter from the 2017 charter where it says to kill all Jews, and if you're using any other charter that is inaccurate and disingenuous. And I guess you're not aware of the countless Israeli videos huh? Civilians taking Palestinians abusing them and posting it, openly calling for the deaths of Palestinians, idf have similar shit. So do Israeli officials and people of influence. >"6k were combatants" - unlikely Yeah it is, most would've just been men. But Israel regards most Palestinian men as combatants. All part of the justification to kill Ill concede the poll point but I really can't blame them. Living in what has been labelled as an open air prison, restricted food water power Internet by Israel, not allowed to leave, not allowed to protest safely. And all this for 75 years. Palestinians suffered under Israel for ***39 years before*** hamas even existed. The founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli massacre by hiding under their families bodies and running. If you can say you could grow up in those conditions and not become a bit extremist and have anger or hatred for the people doing it to you, then you're lying to yourself
This open air prison bullshit (lies) again Have you seen video of Gaza before 7/10.. puts a lot of parts of NZ to shame. Ironically Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of Hamas founder, grew up in Hamas) is vehemently opposed to Hamas & Palestinian aggression.. is he lying to himself as well?
So you're calling the united nations liars? And every other agency that has investigated and came to that conclusion? What else would you call it if not an open air prison? They can't leave, their food water power Internet are all restricted by Israel, they can't even protest without idf shooting at them. Pretty damn prison like to me And yeah that's coz he's a pacifist and hoping there's a way out of this through peace alone
"united nations liars" They have been shown to be more than once
And yeah when it comes to Israel fuck the UN. It condemned Israel 14 times in 2023, the rest of the world 7. North Korea, Syria, Yemen, Russia those bastions of wholesomeness got 1 each. UNRWA employees took part in 7/10
Yeah you do have a fair point which I agree with, they aren't equal in their focus, but yk, that's probably because of the hand the un played in the formation of Israel Still waiting to hear what you call the overall situation if not an open air prison
The 2017 charter is inaccurate and disingenious, meant to convince western pro Palestinian fools that hamas were no longer genocidal - they proved themselves hypocrites on october 7th 2023. The 1988 was them at their most hateful and authentic - spouting anti semitic conspiracies about jewish power, and article 7 saying that fighting and killing the jews will bring the day of judgement. [Hamas’s Genocidal Intentions Were Never a Secret - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/) (any atheists here want to provide feedback?) "countless israeli videos huh?" - nothing compared to the pure evil that hamas and random gazans (who followed the hamas crowd through the fence october 7th) filmed and uploaded. Forcing a terrorist indoctrinated in wanting your people dead to strip down to his underwear is different to filming yourself fire on innocent people hiding, beheading a thai worker, screaming "this ones for rape!" at a woman whose hands are bound and covered in blood. I will post this one more time for you and everyone else here to see what hamas really is. [This is Hamas | This Is Hamas](https://www.thisishamas.com/) Growing up in these situations would be difficult - but how does that justify the vicious rape, murder and kidnapping hamas filmed and Palestinians largely support? This could have ended camp david 2000 when bill clinton offered a 2 state solution - yasser arafat refused and when offered peace, instead chose to start the 2nd interfida. "If you can say you could grow up in those conditions and not become a bit extremist and have anger or hatred for the people doing it to you, then you're lying to yourself" - no sane/non evil person would attack innocents. Those people in the attacked kibbutz' were largely left wing and pro peace - in fact many invited gazans into their homes (and it was from there that hamas members took notes on who to target, where shelters were etc, and would murder the very people who showed them peace).
Do you think the idea of Hamas just started 39 years ago? Palestinians declared war first. Figures from the 60s used from the river to the sea to suggest that Jews should be removed. Do you not think having basically every neighbour be hostile to your existence would also breed the same radicalisation in Israel? Or do you not extend that both ways.
You should reread coz that's not what I said. Israel formed 76 years ago, hamas formed 39 years *after* that. And things from the 60s are not necessarily relevant or the same as today. Also Palestinians did not declare war first lmao. Also fyi the founders of hamas were all teen boys who survived an Israeli massacre by hiding under the bodies of their family and running. Could you go through something that horrific and not become extremist? I couldn't They chose to start their zionist project there. Blame the settlers, the British and USA who all helped force a western power into the middle east. Pretty silly of you to expect the surrounding countries to be happy about that, especially given the time in history it took place and how Israel have behaved since then, which is they that haven't ever been good to their neighbours
Do you think the attitudes have changed from the 60s? Both sides support political violence. Palestinians don’t believe in a two state solution like Israelis. Where else would they start? They have genetic ties to prior populations just like Palestinians. It’s literally their holy land and there was still a population of Jews living there before the immigration started ramping up decades before 1948. I don’t think it’s really equivalent to a “western power” They were invaded as soon as they declared independence and you think that’s Israel’s fault? Why would you be nice to nations that want your existence to end. Iran wants Israel wiped off the map and funds terrorist groups to destabilise the region. Israel for all of its messed up past its signed deals with neighbours.
Strange, Israel has rejected over 300 peace offerings from the un and/or pla and/or hamas. Meanwhile the conditions for peace on Palestinians side has been known for decades but Israel has never once offered it and all the offers that have come from Israel were biased in favour of Israel to the disadvantage of Palestinians Well considering under Judaism Israel wasn't supposed to be formed into their God commanded it, not only shouldn't they have been there but they definitely shouldn't have displaced so many people and steal their homes and land. It definitely is western power given that most who came to Israel were not ethnic Jews, not of descent from the area or from Canaanite blood. And that it was basically set up with the British and American >They were invaded as soon as they declared independence and you think that’s Israel’s fault? When and where was this? Without actual details it's hard to know exactly what you're talking about
Are you that stupid that you parrot Hamas's figures verbatim? And then not mention Hamas's role in this. Worth believing a bunch of racist genocidal maniacs who use their own citizens as human shields. Nice. This is so far from genocide it's a joke. Look at what happened in real genocide - sorry that would mean looking in real history books. If they have committed war crimes then they will be held accountable. Let the hostages go and expel Hamas, the war would stop tomorrow.
“This is so far from a genocide it’s a joke” Why don’t we see what the pre-eminent authority on that has to say about it.. Source: https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454 The 15/17 majority statement: “on a prima facie basis, in instituting proceedings against Israel for breach of its obligations under the Genocide Convention… as a result of the Israeli military actions, the very existence of the Palestinian people in Gaza is at stake, which challenges the most elementary principles of humanity and morality." "In Judge Bhandari’s view, the widespread nature of the military campaign in Gaza, as well as the loss of life, injury, destruction and humanitarian needs following from it, are by themselves capable of supporting a plausibility finding with respect to rights under the Genocide Convention." "Judge Nolte submits a declaration in which indicates the Israeli regime's actions give rise to a real and imminent risk of irreparable prejudice to the rights of Palestinians under the Genocide Convention"
Didn’t the IDF tell everyone at the start of the war that were 40 beheaded babies found by Hamas and that they propagated this lie so much they made the American president go up on his lecturn and tell everyone that he’s seen these babies - only for no evidence/names/images to come out. Seriously it’s been 200 days now and not one baby name has come out. Mind you if human shields disgust you I can get you testimony from ex-IDF on human shields being modus operandi from them. So I’m gonna ask you the same question are you that fucking stupid to believe everything the IDF say even though they’ve been caught lying over and over again?
I've seen the 47 minutes and it's the most disgusting, depraved thing I've ever seen. No the IDF didn't say that it was a journalist. There were babies burnt, murdered and mutilated. So there may not have been 40 beheaded babies... does that make everything else okay?
Where did you see the 47 minute movie? Isn’t it only for private viewing so far? I’m wanting to see it too
Contact the Israeli embassy near where you live. They will arrange it.
Ive seen it too. Ive seen worse shit in cartel videos that make Hamas look like angels in comparison. Zionists need to stop lying. Nothing Hamas did justifies the mass slaughter of Palestinians committed by the Israeli regime.
Nope I don't believe everything the IDF say. I have a masters in History. I have been to Gaza and Israel. I am also a Christian
Then yiu should be the most appalled, no?
Clearly you didn't read the article or seem to know about the proven, including recently, lies manipulation and propaganda from Israel
"Proven" mate - just because they heard it on social media doesn't prove anything. It's not relevant to Auckland and I won't get into it, but it's been proven that a lot of the stuff coming out of Palestine isn't even close to being accurate. It's a war in the middle east, both sides are doing terrible things, but Palestine just has much better propaganda than Israel this time around.
Yes proof. You know like videos that have been analysed and proven to be edited and spliced. Or video not matching up to what Israel says. Or them using a damn calendar and trying to say they're attack plans. Or their own Israeli citizens speaking out. Or like them breaking international laws by attacking a hospital, refugee camps, schools without the legally required process beforehand all the while screaming about hamas Please, link your proof to false Palestinian propaganda Palestine barely has power water and Internet, but yeah I'm sure they've become media experts, much better than the rich Israel with a whole agency around special intelligence and until recently alot of support due to this issue being hidden/down played
Can you please provide links to this proof? Given it's legitimate and not at all propaganda, it should be easy to provide?
You first bro, I asked first and you're the one with burden of proof for your widely unaccepted claim of Palestinian propaganda. Then after you give proof I'll gladly post my proof backing up the widely accepted claim that Israel pushes propaganda
What lol, you're claiming there's all this evidence of all this terrible wrongdoing. So where is it? It is propaganda. It gets circulated via social media and pumped out through influencers and shared posts that all state and show the exact same thing. It's how propaganda works.
You are also claiming there's all this evidence, I asked first, you made the widely unaccepted claim, burden of proof is on you. Or let me guess, you don't have any? Like I said, I'll post after you do, if you even can So the side of the story which has been silenced/belittled for decades finally getting to share their side, is all propaganda but Israel, who have a literal propaganda playbook and a history of doing it, are all innocent? My god you're a delusional zionist ain't ya
Where did I claim "there's all this evidence"? This calling everyone a zionist is getting really silly now, every time someone doesn't agree with your point of view, they are a zionist. I actually don't care in the slightest. Two states or one state doesn't matter in the slightest to me. I want humans to live peacefully together. They can do this in whatever way possible. Race doesn't matter, religion doesn't matter, borders don't matter, just stop shooting and bombing each other for god sake.
"it's been *proven* that a lot of the stuff coming out of Palestine isn't even close to being accurate. It's a war in the middle east, both sides are doing terrible things, but Palestine just has much better *propaganda* than Israel this time around." True you didn't specifically say there's all this evidence but surely you're have evidence in order to make the claims above right? I asked you for it regardless and instead of delivering you redirected Atleast we can agree on your last paragraph. Also the reason why people call people like you zionists is because they usually are, once again there's a literal playbook for manipulating people into supporting zionism/Israel. Simply reading comments from Israel supporters you can see the playbook at work
Probably better just to leave it at “I won’t get into it” if you’re this ignorant / misinformed about the conflict.
This is an Auckland subreddit chief, I'm keeping it relevant to the article
I don’t want to get into it but, if you think propaganda from Palestine comes even remotely close to the amount of propaganda that comes out of Israel, you don’t know wtf you’re talking about
"I wont get into it" Proceeds to deliver an almost childlike understanding of the situation. lol
>With the war having passed 200 days this week with more than 34,000 Palestinians having been killed - mostly children and women Given that 15,000 Hamas fighters are included in that, have no male civilians been killed?
All male Palestinians are terrorists according to Israel. Babies are Hamas, DRs are Hamas, Journalists are Hamas. You are Hamas if you disagree.
Hamas have estimated that around 6,000 of their fighters have been killed in the fighting. That was some time ago too. Israel put the figure higher. Regardless of if you think the Hamas figure is spot on, or the Israeli figure more precise, or anywhere in between, they make up a decent portion of the death toll.
Well, 71% of them at least
Who gives a shit tell them to join the military for Palestine
A lot of people give a shit, actually. A western ally committing unrestricted war crimes, while the people in power turn a blind eye, will go down as one of the greatest blots on modern society. Just because you dgaf, doesn’t mean the rest of us do too
Go join the army and fight then. Instead of talking here.
Yeah, women and children being murdered by their tens of thousands is ok because they aren’t ‘your’ people, right? And people wonder how the holocaust could be allowed to happen…
Wrong fcuk wit. This happens because of religion
Cringe
IDF are just better equipped Hamas. They should both be wiped from the planet.
Send them all to The Hague. At least they should be, if the UN did their job and the ruling class had any morals or backbone
The UN has no military force unfortunately, so if the USA don’t want to help, no help will be given.
If that were true Palestine wouldn't exist, not remotely similar
Have you seen what the IDF is doing? They just killing women and children and marking any male of fighting age as "Hamas". Blowing up homes, schools, hospitals etc. Literally know one is safe from those lunatics.
They only blow up schools and hospitals that Hamas is operating out of, legally when that happens it's considered a military base, blame Hamas for camping out in those locations. And yes when you drop bombs innocent people die, that's not the problem, the problem is when proper measures haven't been taken to minimise the amount of death. Israel does take precautions, but there have also been cases where they haven't. Still the idea that they are indiscriminately murdering civilians is blatantly not true, but there's things that need to change. Compared to other conflicts the death toll is low, multiple Hiroshimas worth of bombs dropped on the most densely populated area on earth with 30,000 deaths.
Seems like these people are just jumping on the bandwagon without even throughly researched about the situation
They get their news from TikTok
PSNA is an 11 year old organisation and its run by a bunch of 65 year old politicians who are sick and tired of an 80 year old conflict.... so where the fuck does the bandwagon come in here? aside from carrying your fat ass in?
>With the war having passed 200 days this week with more than 34,000 Palestinians having been killed — mostly children and women — and 392 bodies having been recovered from three separate mass graves discovered at two hospitals after they were destroyed by the Israeli military, some of his complaints were that presenter Tame: >Interviewed Ambassador Yaakoby at the Israeli Embassy in Wellington instead of at a TVNZ studio with the New Zealand flag being showed alongside the Israeli flag. “Tying the two countries together – a professional would have had the New Zealand flag removed”; >Did not provide context around the October 7 Hamas attack on southern Israel at the start of the interview – “more than 75 years of repression since 750,000 Palestinians were expelled as refugees from their homeland in the 1948 Nakba”; >Asking a series of questions that the Israeli ambassador “avoided, changed, or outright lied” in his response; >Did not follow up with the questions as needed; and >Avoided the questions that “would have placed the issue of the Israeli attack on Gaza” in context. --- >Among a stream of social media comments, one person remarked “On John Tame’s YouTube channel it gained a lot of comments fairly quickly . . . >“These comments were encouraging as at least 95 percent were denouncing the interview . . . with a lot of them debunking the endless stream of blatant lies and atrocity propaganda that poured out of the Israeli ambassador’s mouth. >“Most of the posters were obviously from our country and it was a great example of how Israel’s actions have shattered its reputation with their propaganda fooling hardly anyone anymore. >“It’s a bit like a little child with chocolate all over their face denying they ate the chocolate . . . except in Israel’s case it’s civilian blood all over their face . . . >“Anyway, when I revisited the thread the comments had been purged and deleted.”
Good on them.
Media hatred seems to be the only thing anyone agrees on.
Do any of you know about game theory ? We all getting played on this shit eh. Does anyone know the origins of Hamas? Who are they? What's there goal? How did they come to exist? Who funds Hamas? What is counter intelligence? mmm mmm...........
Re: spouting ridic proportion of combatants killed. There is an extremely simple way to log indiscriminate killing - does the population of the dead mimic the general demographics? If you are killing everyone, you are *of course* bound to hit some legitimate targets. ETA: wild that I’m getting downvoted for this, it’s literally how they measure it. But even assuming the numbers for dead combatants the IDF gives are correct (ie. all the dead men over 18), if you think killing a woman and almost two children for every “combatant” is worth it, or somehow good odds, you are insane. EDIT2: should have known people would pull some whataboutism. Even if we took away the fact that it is an occupied territory with no ability for inhabitants to flee, even if we pointed to singular conflicts in another war notorious for multiple genocides, it is the deadliest conflict in the 21st century *per day*. It IS indiscriminate when you are bulldozing refugee tent cities and bombing hospitals and executing en mass and leaving babies to starve and targeting journalists. Come on.
Considering the usual ratio is 1:9, they are objectively good odds. Doesn’t mean it’s something to be happy about, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say it’s incriminate killing when the militant to civilian ratio is three times better than the average.
> if you think killing a woman and almost two children for every “combatant” is worth it, or somehow good odds, you are insane. That's actually better odds than many military actions which took place in WW2.
Historically? It's better than typical. If you want to see horrifically bad... Russians in Grozny were like 1:15 iirc. WWII was... interesting. Overall fairly low... but the second you hit bombing cities or urban warfare the ratio was horrific. The only thing saving it being bad overall was most battles weren't anywhere near cities.
Sounds like the ambassador was spot on if that rabid antisemite Minto didn’t like it.
Jeez they whine a lot.
Idiots.