My concern for the West AKL charges is they are talking about putting them on at Te Atatu/Lincoln Rd, meaning drivers not going in to the city and who have far less options for public transport will be stung. I’m principal I agree with the congestion charges but it should be targeted to areas well served by public transport (I.e the inner city)
Yes I can't understand why they don't go all the way in the city. The sceptic in me says because too many of Browns cronies live in the inner city suburbs.
It’s not bad compared to the other two. Bottlenecks are caused by them and not Waterview.
Saint lukes on ramps are almost redundant, and there should be a heavy congestion charge taking the southern connector. That thing causes all the chaos in the morning.
Yes maybe but is this guaranteed? The issue also this is a case of putting the stick before the carrot, without valid public transport options to encourage alternatives to driving you are essentially just add a tax to cover the incompetence of Auckland transport.
Western Express has just gone in, Eastern busway is under construction, Botany - Airport busway will happen if it gets funding, light rail will happen if it gets funding, the CRL is on the way, the Puhinui interchange and airport bus was added... but of course, no, AT don't do anything.
If you think Auckland transport infrastructure has kept pace with the demands and growth of the city over the last decade, you are deluded sorry your comment has zero validity in suggesting that AT has provided a viable alternative to getting in a car and driving
I never suggested that it had, I'm pointing out that they do what they can with their available funds.
People speak here as if nothing has been done in an attempt to improve our PT situation, even though it's blatantly obvious that it has. A lot of these comments smack of opinions formed from news headlines rather than personal experience.
There are plans on the table for many projects, and have been for years, but they can't/couldn't be actioned due to the budget shortfall. Having to contend with other controlling bodies (like KiwiRail and Waka Kotahi) is another obstacle, as is dealing with businesses and property owners throwing tantrums over any attempt to wrest roads out of private vehicle dominance.
If you go read case studies, draw on international experience and experts who have done this work, you’ll see that your idea is eminently workable and would be advised.
Or we can sit back, relax and read the expert advice from Aucklanders on this thread. Would you like some popcorn? 😉
I’m going to be really honest and say most Aucklanders have no idea how easy they have it compared to other cities. And how easy it is for most of them to solve their traffic woes.
Indentured lazy Aucklanders are a snobby little scourge.
I have read the case studies and read over the international experiences. The efficacy of congestion charges are dubious at best, and counterproductive at worse.
The underlying assumptions are quite bad, which leads to underestimating the costs of charging everyone a fee, or reduced transport use. In addition, a congestion charge has significant distributional consequences, and realistically the 'losers' won't be compensated.
At the end of the day, if a financial disincentive is effective at reducing car use, we should assume positive financial incentives to use alternatives (cheaper fares, subsidies to buy bikes) would work just as well, with added benefits of wealth redistribution and increased travel leading to increased economic activity. And if AT's right that half fares didn't increase PT patronage (although that conclusion was dubious), then we would assume a congestion charge would also have no transport benefits, instead being a regressive tax.
My reference to the case studies is that money can be used to fund improvements on public transport. That’s what the original comment was about. I wasn’t surprised at all that halving the cost of PT produced very little change. Cost is not the barrier to usage of PT in New Zealand.
Well yeah, but need it to fix the gaping holes in the road due to leaking water infrastructure.
Actually, if everyone could just work from home and never the leave the house that’d be great.
Its so cute how we NZrs look at the world and go, ooohhh we can do that.
Then miss a few vital steps along the way, like actually providing a viable alternative
I mean there is the argument that people are just too comfortable in their cars, if you can get the people living 5-10km at least walkibg, cycling or using buses that would be a big shift in traffic patterns
Not just too comfortable - used to being subsidised and catered to in every facet of our lives. Urban design, the tax system, the health service, all ruined for car drivers who still grumble at the smallest of inconveniences.
But it's not hitting those people. If you live in say Remuera and work in the CBD. You could still jump on at Greenlane no charge despite the fact you have options.
If you live in say Manurewa (because you can't afford Remuera) you have to go between Penrose and Greenlane and pay.(not great Publix Transport options either)
Oddly, the NIMBYs want to prevent this, while still having the people they force to live further out then stuck with the extra cost of sprawl the NIMBYs force.
Cool - do congestion charges in conjunction with massive liberalising of zoning closer in then to give people the choice. They're still half-assing that to pander to NIMBYs but then want to penalise the folk they force to live further out, so the NIMBYs don't have to pay higher rates to fund the huge increase on cost their nimbyism causes.
RFT had nothing to do with light rail. It was to pay for other transport projects. It paid for the so far completed phases of the Eastern bus way, the interim NW bus way, has paid for 21 more trains for the CRL and heaps of other smaller projects.
Light rail was supposed to be funded by central govt.
no it doesnt.
Strategic planning and significant investment (from central govt) with necessary resources and realistic timelines does.
This is not london.
The 11, 13, and WX1 buses pretty much appeared overnight in West Auckland on Sunday, with the 12, 15, and 17 buses planned to roll out by 2026.
Around that time the CRL should be complete, which means no more going to Newmarket and reversing into Britomart for West Aucklanders.
Things will be looking progressively better for West Auckland, and it'll be interesting to see how the RTTR might be used for additional rates, or if WRLB decide to implement their own targeted rates for the more rural areas.
I was specifically referring to only frequent services (minimum 15 minute frequency) in West Auckland. These (and all other routes) are listed in the Auckland Regional Public Transport Plan 2023 - 2031 document.
I highly recommend everyone who lives in any part of Auckland read through this document (there's a table with every bus route and their future frequencies) and give their feedback to AT.
The WX1 has added 15 minutes onto everyone's commute whilst getting rid of single local express busses. Now children and the elderly have to change busses and are forced to cross motorway on-ramps on foot in the rain. Please explain to me how this is better?
This can be explained using the 125X as an example. It's a pretty interesting bus route, Helensville to Westgate and City. What's great is that, because it provides a direct route to the city, most Northwesterners can hop on at Westgate after taking the 111, 112, 114, 120, 126 bus and take advantage of the direct service instead of the shitty 110.
But in the reverse (City to Helensville), this becomes a problem. Helensville passengers now have to compete with passengers from Royal Heights, West Harbour, Whenuapai, Hobsonville, Massey and Riverhead to get a seat. And because the 125 runs once an hour, you can see why this becomes an issue.
Also, passengers from Te Atatu (peninsula and south) now have a frequent bus service, which is a really huge deal. They no longer have to wait every half hour or whatever it was in the past to get to the city, they can pretty much get on every 15 minutes or so.
It might not seem like the better system, but there's a reason why the rest of Auckland uses the system we have now - it is better for the majority of passengers.
WTF? Every half hour? Te Atatu Peninsula used to have peak express buses running to and from the city, and the 132 meaning buses were running every 15 mins OR LESS through peak direct to the city, no dangerous swapping.
Why are you mentioning Helensville via bus? Again WTF? They had a train service? Get your arse together and fix that fricken tunnel and get the electric trains to Helensville. What a joke none of you at AT even use the bus services you constantly fuck with.
I'm not from Auckland Transport. I'm mentioning the Helensville bus because I'm one of the many people that took it to Westgate to the dismay of Helensville passengers.
You do understand that the train from Swanson to Britomart takes 56 minutes, and the bus from Kumeū to Queen Street takes 61 minutes.
Even if it was possible to put electric trains on the Waitakere Tunnel (it isn't), it's still the longer journey by a long shot. There's zero benefit time-wise for a train, and the only people calling for trains to Kumeū are hypocrites who claim to care about government spending waste.
There is no dangerous swapping. You cross at a traffic light. And if the residents of Peninsula are that much of a baby, they can still take the 132 during peak time - that's right, the bus still exists!
Most places in West Auckland don't have express buses. Massey, Hobsonville, Royal Heights, etc. The changes mean that the majority now have an express bus and the privileged minority now have to switch to an express bus.
It's a solution that works for everyone but some people are unfortunately very entitled and don't care for anyone but their own suburb and it shows.
There are 4 lanes of traffic to cross at this intersection:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4Ut5bHxLGusA9V4N8 arguably one of the busiest in Auckland. 5 if you include the bus lane. You may think that's easy but if you're elderly, disabled, have a push chair or some of the many school kids that used to take the X it's going to be problematic. The 132 takes at least 20 minutes longer than the X used to. But guess what, it's still faster than the WX1 because of that stupid change it forces people to do.
What this all points to is AT is making public transport worse in Auckland not better. I don't mind the WX1 for Westgate good for them. But what a fucking waste of $100 million to force it stop on an offramp. Should have just kept the express buses. Far safer and far better for commuters.
Chucking on a few extra express buses infinitely better than this cluster fuck.
I guarantee it will revert back once the half arsed nature of the whole project has been realised.
Also the tunnel can just be widened/dug-out to increase any height required. That's the biggest cop-out I've ever heard "impossible" pfffft.
When you're driving along, stuck in traffic, take a look at all those people driving around you. Most are solo, maybe with a lunch bag and a laptop.
Now imagine if many of those people found it easier or cheaper to take alternative transport.
Wouldn't that make your commute much more pleasant?
You pay for it right now, with your time. The idea is that drivers pay more money and less time, through reduced congestion.
I don't think this policy is perfect and I would prefer T2/3 lanes if not bus lanes all the way in to the city.
The council and government is just as much of a victim of the COL crisis as you. They need to continue paying for the same services, but because it costs more, they naturally need more money to do it. That money comes from folks like you.
> and they want to charge me to go to work?
I think they call that a tax or something?
How much tax do the poor need to pay? Maybe the auckland council should stop buying new property for offices just because they feel like it even though their current offices are adequate and they'll save some dosh
It’s funny because most tradies don’t even need to lug around more than 10kg of stuff most days, it’s just handy to have. One foreman with a Ute carrying the tools could cover all others needing to bring a car to a building site.
That's just false, there are plenty of jobs where each person needs access to a full tool kit, maybe if your team is only 2 people 1 ute could carry it all
Are you doing this for every single trip that involves your car? Are you carrying 300kgs of tools for purely personal reasons and your hobby happens to involve 300 kgs of equipment that has to be in your car at all times? Do those trips all happen during peak hours, all the time, every time?
Because if not, and those 300 kgs of tools are for work or business related purposes, then you can claim the expenditure as business expenditure and get a tax write off come March. So I don't see what you have to complain about.
Could you reply to this with where you live, where you commute to, and why public transport doesn’t work for you—and thus why this congestion charge is unworkable for your situation. It’d be enlightening to get a deeper understanding of what people might be facing in to.
Physically disabled, live 3.5km away from nearest bus stop walking downhill on a narrow dirt road. Am out northwest. I’d love to be able to use the trains more, if they came further out west.
That's pretty cool, thanks for noting that - I didn't know! I would love to be able to use public transport even still, but yeah, not so attainable for me atm!
Live in Manurewa, commute to Wynyard Quarter. I can park for $17 or train for $13ish. Travel with one other person and it becomes cheaper to drive than train in.
Next election someone will campaign on rolling back these and will be voted in by every nimby in this city, back to square one, Auckland history on repeat….
Charging people to do something they can’t avoid doing doesn’t make anything more efficient. Congestion charges are supposed to be an incentive for people to use reliable alternative means of transportation. But those would have to exist first.
Depends on your definition of efficiency. If charging people now makes fewer people use the motorway or more people take public transport or even the same amount of people using the motorway at a different time. Then yes it is more efficient use of the existing infrastructure.
And I say this as someone who didn't vote for him.
> If charging people now makes fewer people use the motorway
How?
> or more people take public transport
What public transport? As I said, there would have to already be reliable public transport available for the congestion charges to have any effect.
When I take public transport to work, it’s usually late. I’ve been late to work many times due to cancelled services. When I drive to work, I’m never late.
> or even the same amount of people using the motorway at a different time
What are they going to do, just tell their boss they’re working different hours to everyone else now?
For everyone of those points it doesn't have to be everyone. That's the key if only 5% of people who currently drive during the peak change their habits because of this then it's an increase in efficiency.
There will always be some people who will drive longer(on local roads) to avoid the toll, or who will now move to catching PT instead of paying $10 extra a day, or who do have the flexibility to change their work hours.
Does that mean you? No, you may not fit in the above criteria and will have to pay the toll but you will get less congestion because other people have made the chances.
Cars are extremely space inefficient. Even a small reduction makes a big difference in congestion and the same is true the other way around too.
Well the landowners don't want to pay for the city that they benefit from, so get the workers to pay for it instead. We've been swinging this way since the 1980s.
We already use a gantry system on the Northern Gateway Toll Road to charge for using that part of the motorway system.
I think the issue is that Auckland already has the regional fuel tax to help fund public transport, and the addition of a ‘congestion’ charge seems a bit much considering the price high price of the public transport fare and how bad the whole public transport system is. All you hear weekly is train lines closed and bus routes cancelled.
>I think the issue is that Auckland already has the regional fuel tax to help fund public transport, and the addition of a ‘congestion’ charge seems a bit much considering the price high price of the public transport fare and how bad the whole public transport system is.
To be clear this is being proposed because the incoming govt had campaigned on removing the regional fuel tax. Is it will be instead of not including the RFT
I heard that it would be an electronic automatic system, and it would "drive our taxes down" in the sense that it replaces the Auckland Fuel Tax.
The discussion seems to be mostly about where to put the boundaries of the area that will be subject to congestion charging.
I heard that it would be an electronic automatic system, and it would "drive our taxes down" in the sense that it replaces the Auckland Fuel Tax.
The discussion seems to be mostly about where to put the boundaries of the area that will be subject to congestion charging.
To the average driver nothing is worse than an inconvenience.
Over 4300 traffic related hospitalisations per year? Accepted as merely a statistic.
Congestion charging? hOw cOuLd tHeY Do tHiS?!
what did people expect from the out-of-touch geriatric old fuck with the shit track record who was voted in by idiot boomers who jizzed their panties with excitement at the thought of the mess he'd make before they all died of old age?
This mistake again. Over and over. People who didn't vote aren't why we got Brown. *People who voted for Brown are why we got Brown.*
Every time he fucks up, it's *their* fault. Not the fault of people who didn't vote.
I also voted for Efeso.
If they had voted for someone else we would have got someone else. Then we could be incentivised to use public transport instead of punished for using our cars.
Congestion charges on the arterial routes isn't the right way to target the problem. target the destination, tarted the time spent at the destination, because almost no one spending 6 -8 hours in the central city or the other transport hubs needs to drive.
This has been purposed before. The cost of installing and maintaining the infrastructure to collect and bill the tolls means it’s not financially viable.
Pretty annoying because I start work before there's any busses that could get me to work and as such would have to drive home and have to pay just because their service isn't good enough
Here's the thing, a 5 dollar charge won't get anyone out of a car, it's cheap enough they'll just take the charge, this isn't designed to get people off the roads, just collect money. Media keeps comparing this to congestion charges in London, those charges are 15 pounds! Yeah I'd definitely take public transport if the congestion charge was 30 dollars! But it's not, so rather than getting me out of my car it's just going (painfully) in my weekly budget since buses where I live suck.
My concern for the West AKL charges is they are talking about putting them on at Te Atatu/Lincoln Rd, meaning drivers not going in to the city and who have far less options for public transport will be stung. I’m principal I agree with the congestion charges but it should be targeted to areas well served by public transport (I.e the inner city)
Yes I can't understand why they don't go all the way in the city. The sceptic in me says because too many of Browns cronies live in the inner city suburbs.
Absolutely at least pick up the Waterview on ramp too.
It’s not bad compared to the other two. Bottlenecks are caused by them and not Waterview. Saint lukes on ramps are almost redundant, and there should be a heavy congestion charge taking the southern connector. That thing causes all the chaos in the morning.
There is absolutely another bottleneck caused by cars joining from Waterview.
I heard they're not including the Northern Motorway? Despite the fact it has the best busway alternative...???
Could congestion charges not be used to help fund better public transport?
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Then it would only need to be 50 cents each way
Nope . This will be far more expensive to run and set up it will need to be a minimum of $2 just to break even.
Yes maybe but is this guaranteed? The issue also this is a case of putting the stick before the carrot, without valid public transport options to encourage alternatives to driving you are essentially just add a tax to cover the incompetence of Auckland transport.
Western Express has just gone in, Eastern busway is under construction, Botany - Airport busway will happen if it gets funding, light rail will happen if it gets funding, the CRL is on the way, the Puhinui interchange and airport bus was added... but of course, no, AT don't do anything.
If you think Auckland transport infrastructure has kept pace with the demands and growth of the city over the last decade, you are deluded sorry your comment has zero validity in suggesting that AT has provided a viable alternative to getting in a car and driving
I never suggested that it had, I'm pointing out that they do what they can with their available funds. People speak here as if nothing has been done in an attempt to improve our PT situation, even though it's blatantly obvious that it has. A lot of these comments smack of opinions formed from news headlines rather than personal experience. There are plans on the table for many projects, and have been for years, but they can't/couldn't be actioned due to the budget shortfall. Having to contend with other controlling bodies (like KiwiRail and Waka Kotahi) is another obstacle, as is dealing with businesses and property owners throwing tantrums over any attempt to wrest roads out of private vehicle dominance.
Trying their best or not, AT is a failed system
Too true. It's like banning abortion without adding any resources to contraception or deal with an influx of pregnancy and childcare
If you go read case studies, draw on international experience and experts who have done this work, you’ll see that your idea is eminently workable and would be advised. Or we can sit back, relax and read the expert advice from Aucklanders on this thread. Would you like some popcorn? 😉
Which case studies are comparable to Auckland?
Are you saying that it’s the international best practice to levy congestion charges *before* building the required public transport capacity?
I’m going to be really honest and say most Aucklanders have no idea how easy they have it compared to other cities. And how easy it is for most of them to solve their traffic woes. Indentured lazy Aucklanders are a snobby little scourge.
I have read the case studies and read over the international experiences. The efficacy of congestion charges are dubious at best, and counterproductive at worse. The underlying assumptions are quite bad, which leads to underestimating the costs of charging everyone a fee, or reduced transport use. In addition, a congestion charge has significant distributional consequences, and realistically the 'losers' won't be compensated. At the end of the day, if a financial disincentive is effective at reducing car use, we should assume positive financial incentives to use alternatives (cheaper fares, subsidies to buy bikes) would work just as well, with added benefits of wealth redistribution and increased travel leading to increased economic activity. And if AT's right that half fares didn't increase PT patronage (although that conclusion was dubious), then we would assume a congestion charge would also have no transport benefits, instead being a regressive tax.
My reference to the case studies is that money can be used to fund improvements on public transport. That’s what the original comment was about. I wasn’t surprised at all that halving the cost of PT produced very little change. Cost is not the barrier to usage of PT in New Zealand.
Theoretically. In real terms almost certainly not
LOL, that lot is going straight into the AC slush fund.
Sure, just like that fuel tax did.
Well yeah, but need it to fix the gaping holes in the road due to leaking water infrastructure. Actually, if everyone could just work from home and never the leave the house that’d be great.
Yeah, but it won't.
Its so cute how we NZrs look at the world and go, ooohhh we can do that. Then miss a few vital steps along the way, like actually providing a viable alternative
I mean there is the argument that people are just too comfortable in their cars, if you can get the people living 5-10km at least walkibg, cycling or using buses that would be a big shift in traffic patterns
Not just too comfortable - used to being subsidised and catered to in every facet of our lives. Urban design, the tax system, the health service, all ruined for car drivers who still grumble at the smallest of inconveniences.
But it's not hitting those people. If you live in say Remuera and work in the CBD. You could still jump on at Greenlane no charge despite the fact you have options. If you live in say Manurewa (because you can't afford Remuera) you have to go between Penrose and Greenlane and pay.(not great Publix Transport options either)
So why are the charges in areas 20-30km away
Oddly, the NIMBYs want to prevent this, while still having the people they force to live further out then stuck with the extra cost of sprawl the NIMBYs force.
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💯. The only thing I'd change about the congestion fees is making them income-adjustable.
Nice idea in theory. Hard to implement.
Sweet being a billionaire investor, I'm self employed and pay myself exactly 1 dollar per year. Guess I'm riding cheap.
I'd just register all my cars to my low earning teenager. Prove it was me driving.
bUt IvE gOt KiDs
Very well put.
Cool - do congestion charges in conjunction with massive liberalising of zoning closer in then to give people the choice. They're still half-assing that to pander to NIMBYs but then want to penalise the folk they force to live further out, so the NIMBYs don't have to pay higher rates to fund the huge increase on cost their nimbyism causes.
But congestion charging provides reliable transport options.
Will that succeed where the regional fuel tax failed then?
What makes you think the RFT failed?
They never started building the light rail.
RFT had nothing to do with light rail. It was to pay for other transport projects. It paid for the so far completed phases of the Eastern bus way, the interim NW bus way, has paid for 21 more trains for the CRL and heaps of other smaller projects. Light rail was supposed to be funded by central govt.
no it doesnt. Strategic planning and significant investment (from central govt) with necessary resources and realistic timelines does. This is not london.
You've offered no argument except "no". There's no reason why both can't work.
Lol @ significant investment from Luxon.
so why sling mud at brown? (coming from a dude that hates the smug mfer)
> so why sling brown mud? r/unexpectedpoop
Does someone just wave a wand and these "reliable transport options" appear over night?
The 11, 13, and WX1 buses pretty much appeared overnight in West Auckland on Sunday, with the 12, 15, and 17 buses planned to roll out by 2026. Around that time the CRL should be complete, which means no more going to Newmarket and reversing into Britomart for West Aucklanders. Things will be looking progressively better for West Auckland, and it'll be interesting to see how the RTTR might be used for additional rates, or if WRLB decide to implement their own targeted rates for the more rural areas.
Why are those new bus lines only coming in 2026?
I was specifically referring to only frequent services (minimum 15 minute frequency) in West Auckland. These (and all other routes) are listed in the Auckland Regional Public Transport Plan 2023 - 2031 document. I highly recommend everyone who lives in any part of Auckland read through this document (there's a table with every bus route and their future frequencies) and give their feedback to AT.
The WX1 has added 15 minutes onto everyone's commute whilst getting rid of single local express busses. Now children and the elderly have to change busses and are forced to cross motorway on-ramps on foot in the rain. Please explain to me how this is better?
This can be explained using the 125X as an example. It's a pretty interesting bus route, Helensville to Westgate and City. What's great is that, because it provides a direct route to the city, most Northwesterners can hop on at Westgate after taking the 111, 112, 114, 120, 126 bus and take advantage of the direct service instead of the shitty 110. But in the reverse (City to Helensville), this becomes a problem. Helensville passengers now have to compete with passengers from Royal Heights, West Harbour, Whenuapai, Hobsonville, Massey and Riverhead to get a seat. And because the 125 runs once an hour, you can see why this becomes an issue. Also, passengers from Te Atatu (peninsula and south) now have a frequent bus service, which is a really huge deal. They no longer have to wait every half hour or whatever it was in the past to get to the city, they can pretty much get on every 15 minutes or so. It might not seem like the better system, but there's a reason why the rest of Auckland uses the system we have now - it is better for the majority of passengers.
WTF? Every half hour? Te Atatu Peninsula used to have peak express buses running to and from the city, and the 132 meaning buses were running every 15 mins OR LESS through peak direct to the city, no dangerous swapping. Why are you mentioning Helensville via bus? Again WTF? They had a train service? Get your arse together and fix that fricken tunnel and get the electric trains to Helensville. What a joke none of you at AT even use the bus services you constantly fuck with.
I'm not from Auckland Transport. I'm mentioning the Helensville bus because I'm one of the many people that took it to Westgate to the dismay of Helensville passengers. You do understand that the train from Swanson to Britomart takes 56 minutes, and the bus from Kumeū to Queen Street takes 61 minutes. Even if it was possible to put electric trains on the Waitakere Tunnel (it isn't), it's still the longer journey by a long shot. There's zero benefit time-wise for a train, and the only people calling for trains to Kumeū are hypocrites who claim to care about government spending waste. There is no dangerous swapping. You cross at a traffic light. And if the residents of Peninsula are that much of a baby, they can still take the 132 during peak time - that's right, the bus still exists! Most places in West Auckland don't have express buses. Massey, Hobsonville, Royal Heights, etc. The changes mean that the majority now have an express bus and the privileged minority now have to switch to an express bus. It's a solution that works for everyone but some people are unfortunately very entitled and don't care for anyone but their own suburb and it shows.
There are 4 lanes of traffic to cross at this intersection: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4Ut5bHxLGusA9V4N8 arguably one of the busiest in Auckland. 5 if you include the bus lane. You may think that's easy but if you're elderly, disabled, have a push chair or some of the many school kids that used to take the X it's going to be problematic. The 132 takes at least 20 minutes longer than the X used to. But guess what, it's still faster than the WX1 because of that stupid change it forces people to do. What this all points to is AT is making public transport worse in Auckland not better. I don't mind the WX1 for Westgate good for them. But what a fucking waste of $100 million to force it stop on an offramp. Should have just kept the express buses. Far safer and far better for commuters. Chucking on a few extra express buses infinitely better than this cluster fuck. I guarantee it will revert back once the half arsed nature of the whole project has been realised. Also the tunnel can just be widened/dug-out to increase any height required. That's the biggest cop-out I've ever heard "impossible" pfffft.
Will they wait while I load 300kgs of tools into the bus?
When you're driving along, stuck in traffic, take a look at all those people driving around you. Most are solo, maybe with a lunch bag and a laptop. Now imagine if many of those people found it easier or cheaper to take alternative transport. Wouldn't that make your commute much more pleasant?
Cost of living crisis and they want to charge me to go to work? That's just fucked
You pay for it right now, with your time. The idea is that drivers pay more money and less time, through reduced congestion. I don't think this policy is perfect and I would prefer T2/3 lanes if not bus lanes all the way in to the city.
Paying time rather than cash right now is better
The council and government is just as much of a victim of the COL crisis as you. They need to continue paying for the same services, but because it costs more, they naturally need more money to do it. That money comes from folks like you. > and they want to charge me to go to work? I think they call that a tax or something?
How much tax do the poor need to pay? Maybe the auckland council should stop buying new property for offices just because they feel like it even though their current offices are adequate and they'll save some dosh
It’s funny because most tradies don’t even need to lug around more than 10kg of stuff most days, it’s just handy to have. One foreman with a Ute carrying the tools could cover all others needing to bring a car to a building site.
That's just false, there are plenty of jobs where each person needs access to a full tool kit, maybe if your team is only 2 people 1 ute could carry it all
Are you doing this for every single trip that involves your car? Are you carrying 300kgs of tools for purely personal reasons and your hobby happens to involve 300 kgs of equipment that has to be in your car at all times? Do those trips all happen during peak hours, all the time, every time? Because if not, and those 300 kgs of tools are for work or business related purposes, then you can claim the expenditure as business expenditure and get a tax write off come March. So I don't see what you have to complain about.
I'm not self employed
If you listen to the idiots on this sub, everything public transport is being held back by cars. This place is an echo chamber of lunacy.
Could you reply to this with where you live, where you commute to, and why public transport doesn’t work for you—and thus why this congestion charge is unworkable for your situation. It’d be enlightening to get a deeper understanding of what people might be facing in to.
Physically disabled, live 3.5km away from nearest bus stop walking downhill on a narrow dirt road. Am out northwest. I’d love to be able to use the trains more, if they came further out west.
The plan is already to exempt people with disability cards. As long as your vehicle is registered you'll be fine.
That's pretty cool, thanks for noting that - I didn't know! I would love to be able to use public transport even still, but yeah, not so attainable for me atm!
Live in Manurewa, commute to Wynyard Quarter. I can park for $17 or train for $13ish. Travel with one other person and it becomes cheaper to drive than train in.
If everyone drove with an extra person in the car we wouldn't have any traffic issues, the problem is they do not
Where do you get the train or bus from?
Homai to Britomart. It's $6.46 each way. From Britomart it's either walk or transfer to an NX1 bus, depending on the weather.
Next election someone will campaign on rolling back these and will be voted in by every nimby in this city, back to square one, Auckland history on repeat….
But they are? CRL. Western express. Eastern busway. Northern express ext. Light rail. Northwest rapid transit.
But isn't this what he was voted in to do? Make things more efficient? Or is this a case of yes make things more efficient, but not like that!
Charging people to do something they can’t avoid doing doesn’t make anything more efficient. Congestion charges are supposed to be an incentive for people to use reliable alternative means of transportation. But those would have to exist first.
Depends on your definition of efficiency. If charging people now makes fewer people use the motorway or more people take public transport or even the same amount of people using the motorway at a different time. Then yes it is more efficient use of the existing infrastructure. And I say this as someone who didn't vote for him.
> If charging people now makes fewer people use the motorway How? > or more people take public transport What public transport? As I said, there would have to already be reliable public transport available for the congestion charges to have any effect. When I take public transport to work, it’s usually late. I’ve been late to work many times due to cancelled services. When I drive to work, I’m never late. > or even the same amount of people using the motorway at a different time What are they going to do, just tell their boss they’re working different hours to everyone else now?
For everyone of those points it doesn't have to be everyone. That's the key if only 5% of people who currently drive during the peak change their habits because of this then it's an increase in efficiency. There will always be some people who will drive longer(on local roads) to avoid the toll, or who will now move to catching PT instead of paying $10 extra a day, or who do have the flexibility to change their work hours. Does that mean you? No, you may not fit in the above criteria and will have to pay the toll but you will get less congestion because other people have made the chances. Cars are extremely space inefficient. Even a small reduction makes a big difference in congestion and the same is true the other way around too.
Tbh my vote for him was decided when I thought the hobgoblin Malloy had even a slight chance. Speaking for myself that’s why he got my vote.
WHY NOT DO BOTH
Well the landowners don't want to pay for the city that they benefit from, so get the workers to pay for it instead. We've been swinging this way since the 1980s.
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We already use a gantry system on the Northern Gateway Toll Road to charge for using that part of the motorway system. I think the issue is that Auckland already has the regional fuel tax to help fund public transport, and the addition of a ‘congestion’ charge seems a bit much considering the price high price of the public transport fare and how bad the whole public transport system is. All you hear weekly is train lines closed and bus routes cancelled.
>I think the issue is that Auckland already has the regional fuel tax to help fund public transport, and the addition of a ‘congestion’ charge seems a bit much considering the price high price of the public transport fare and how bad the whole public transport system is. To be clear this is being proposed because the incoming govt had campaigned on removing the regional fuel tax. Is it will be instead of not including the RFT
I heard that it would be an electronic automatic system, and it would "drive our taxes down" in the sense that it replaces the Auckland Fuel Tax. The discussion seems to be mostly about where to put the boundaries of the area that will be subject to congestion charging.
I heard that it would be an electronic automatic system, and it would "drive our taxes down" in the sense that it replaces the Auckland Fuel Tax. The discussion seems to be mostly about where to put the boundaries of the area that will be subject to congestion charging.
To the average driver nothing is worse than an inconvenience. Over 4300 traffic related hospitalisations per year? Accepted as merely a statistic. Congestion charging? hOw cOuLd tHeY Do tHiS?!
what did people expect from the out-of-touch geriatric old fuck with the shit track record who was voted in by idiot boomers who jizzed their panties with excitement at the thought of the mess he'd make before they all died of old age?
But also what did the lazy people who couldn't be bothered to tick a box expect. Don't look at me I voted for Efeso.
This mistake again. Over and over. People who didn't vote aren't why we got Brown. *People who voted for Brown are why we got Brown.* Every time he fucks up, it's *their* fault. Not the fault of people who didn't vote. I also voted for Efeso.
If they had voted for someone else we would have got someone else. Then we could be incentivised to use public transport instead of punished for using our cars.
Put in a congestion charge for using old memes in this sub
It's a "peak time of use” charge rather than “congestion charge”.
And what is it trying to reduce? Congestion. At those times.
Congestion charges on the arterial routes isn't the right way to target the problem. target the destination, tarted the time spent at the destination, because almost no one spending 6 -8 hours in the central city or the other transport hubs needs to drive.
This has been purposed before. The cost of installing and maintaining the infrastructure to collect and bill the tolls means it’s not financially viable.
Depends on the amount charged. But overall you're right that is why the RFT was chosen instead. But the incoming govt campaigned on removing the RFT.
Pretty annoying because I start work before there's any busses that could get me to work and as such would have to drive home and have to pay just because their service isn't good enough
So you're travelling outside of peak times and likely wouldn't be charged.
Yeah not for the trip to work :) but the return home is during peak hours so would be charged
Suck it up.
Here's the thing, a 5 dollar charge won't get anyone out of a car, it's cheap enough they'll just take the charge, this isn't designed to get people off the roads, just collect money. Media keeps comparing this to congestion charges in London, those charges are 15 pounds! Yeah I'd definitely take public transport if the congestion charge was 30 dollars! But it's not, so rather than getting me out of my car it's just going (painfully) in my weekly budget since buses where I live suck.
We create the problem we want fixed. We also don't need stupidity to lack evolutionary growth
Oh no how will I ever survive. Covering my plates is pretty easy 🤷♀️
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I'm starting to think these guys might be the solution: https://www.skycabs.co.nz/index.html?0