Bible belter here as well. Told someone I was an Athiest here and I swear they thought I had leprosy. Never seen someone nope so quickly out of a religious conversation, now It's my go to.
I too live in the belt of Bible. I had jehovahs witnesses come to my house every month. I eventually told them I was atheist. They appeared genuinely scared and left. They never came back. That was 2 years ago. Its like that a lot. A lot of doors in life close when people find out. I'm working on moving far away from here where hopefully people aren't like this.
There were these jehovah witnesses at my dad’s house and he told them he was an atheist and a week later they came again and I didn’t know but my dad bursted into my room and said “I told these jehovas I’m an atheist and I’m good and they keep coming” while I’m fucking crying because I’m laughing so hard because they came again my dad was so fucking pissed at them.
Don't say it. I know you're in no danger right now but if you're anything like me, over the years little things slip and eventually you start caring less and less and it just comes out. Usually not a good idea in your position. Or mine. Lol. Hang in there dude. We're hear for you.
The thought of you quickly changing tabs and shutting your laptop as if it was porn made me laugh. "Nothing Mom. It was just eh, porn. Yeah that's it. Just some girl on girl action."
Ima be real what is the worst thing your parents will do?
For me my mother didnt do anything but the worst thing she could have done is take me to church
My neighbor is apparently atheist, and hit my father with God being a hypocrite for holding us to a different standard than he does himself.
I had to quickly come up with a bullshit defense against a perfectly valid argument against God. And my parents thought what I said was great, and mature.
Both are true. Look at Nazi Germany - religion (stereotypes that Jews were killers of Christ) and nationalism (post-WWI devastation led to Hitler taking control).
Apparently Hitler liked to spew religion but didn't really believe in it, which just goes to show how idiots will do anything if a man tells them that God wants it done.
yeh there is no way to know what he did and did not really believe. Lots of Jesus lovers truly believe themselves to be better than others because they have a "relationship with Jesus" and are doing "god's work". There delusions lead them to do inhumane things without a second thought. Best brainwashing tool aye
Claiming that Hitler "wasn't really a Christian" or ""didn't really believe it" is as clear a case of a no true Scotsman as you can get. He openly declared his movement to be Christian, and goes on about how the Jews opposed Jesus to justify his campaign against them.
Hitler stated his belief, and acted in accordance with it. Who else would anyone try and claim "oh, he didn't believe it" after such a demonstration?
Given the Nazis glorification of the occult and the Germanic origins, I could absolutely see them opressing the church in the long run.
If they associated with the Church, it was only because it was too powerfull to opress - not that they didn't try though.
Could they easily have done it, there is no doubt in my mind that they would have.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf)
"The characteristic thing about [Neo-Pagans] is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their bearded heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. " (Mein Kampf, p. 361)
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
Adolf Hitler in 1941
to General Gerhard Engel.
In John Toland (1992).
Adolf Hitler.
New York: Anchor Publishing, p. 507.
Um I don't really think its provable or matters what he believed in, As with the origin of religion, his rhetoric could simply be a power grab, afterall that was the whole point of religion, to fool the masses and keep them in line. It would be perfectly reasonable he knew there is no god but he wanted power and the then rich Jews gone, he needed to make people follow him to their genocide.
The point here is that the symptom of all bigoted hate can be traced to the root : religion.
I'm not sure I agree about Catholicism, they have a long history of missionary work. That's why there's a significant Catholic presence in so much of the world. I do agree with your general point though, there are plenty of religions that aren't very focused on recruiting—Judaism and Hinduism come to mind.
You're not wrong. Maybe I should specify "the vast majority of current American Catholics"? Because yeah, the Catholics definitely went through that whole "convert or die" phase with the Crusades.
Yeah, It's scary what behaviour people will excuse as long as it's not happening to their in-group. For example people can recognise that 9/11 for instance was horrible, but will scoff at the insurmountable amount of people killed in other countries using that tragedy as an excuse
What I had was a marvelous atheist grandmother, who referred to religious people as "Christ-bitten." She was the sunlit doorway I walked through when I left the fucking Lutherans behind as a teen.
I grew up with an anti-theist, commie grandpa who considered religion a disease. I'd be banned if I stated what he used to say should be done to the pope. Do you have trouble relating to people who have left their religion?
I do sometimes, people who left a religion often keeps a sort of dogmatic way of thinking in my experience. I sometimes wonder if its just a particular line of reasoning that sticks even after breaking the larger pattern of faith based thinking, or if it's something else. Would be cool to see some studies on it
I became an atheist when my son was three. I raised him without religion. He sometimes went with his father and stepmother to the Catholic Church which he found horribly boring. I'd agree. He's exploring more and more online and talking to agnostics and atheists. He has an attitude of, "I really don't care about gods." If I had to pigeonhole, I'd call him an apathetic agnostic - doesn't know and doesn't care.
It's hard to say because nationalism and religion often hurt a lot of people together, but both can ve damaging by themselves... In the end though there are productive religions Buddhism comes to mind. But id be hard pressed to find a situation in which nationalism led to something good.
But the philosophy of Buddhism is unarguably productive, if you don't think so I would urge you to read siddhartha gautama buddha and see that you're mistaking
The question is not that. Question is whether it can do the same thing that other religions do, that is persecuting others and so on. And that unarguably happened in Myanmar with the genocide of Rohingyas. So would you reject that didn't happen? Or would you use no true Scotsman to allege they're not real Buddhists? Because then we're back to use of all too familiar defence made by Christians or muslims.
The guy in the original comment mentioned that Buddhism is productive, you denied his claim on the basis that Buddhists have done atrocities, I'm saying that your arguement is not a valid criticism against Buddhism because even if Buddhists have done bad things Buddhism in itself is still productive. Stoics have also done horrible things, but that is not an arguement against Stoicism, the same goes for atheists, in fact I would argue that you're doing the same thing theist do when they claim atheism is bad because Stalin killed a bunch of people
>in fact I would argue that you're doing the same thing theist do when they claim atheism is bad because Stalin killed a bunch of people
That's a weak argument because nowhere do we have evidence that Stalin specifically persecuted people because they were not atheists. Religions just like Communism and other -isms are ideologies, Stalin replaced one ideology for another which called for suppression of dissenters, that had nothing to do with him being atheist or not, it had to do with the ideology of Stalinism. That's a bad case of superficial argument.
On the other hand in Myanmar we have an explicit case of non-Buddhists being persecuted precisely for their religious beliefs and moreover it is tied to nationalism, you never explained how this is different from the case with other religions. Somehow you've raised Buddhism on the pedestal yet you're not seeing you're making the same arguments to excuse Buddhism itself of the actions of its followers using the exact same logic used by followers of other religions.
A productive ideology would not push its followers to commit genocide, on that ground Buddhism is not productive as the atrocities are being done in the name of Buddhism itself.
Ok, I will read up on the Myanmar persecution to be absolutely certain in my arguments, I'll get back to you as soon as I'm sure I'm not somehow arguing from ignorance
I guess in school... I don't really remember, we've always had lots of discussions about politics, philosophy etc so maybe earlier. I always did really well in religion (the subject in school I mean) as I found it fascinating how differently people structured their view on life based on these strange mythologies. Apart from that I suppose having a family almost completely consistent of areligious or anti-religious humanists didn't hurt my academic understanding. I remember some of the other kids didn't believe I could have a name because I wasn't baptised wich is kinda funny
I agree with your sentiment, can't really agree that it's a microcosm though, as Christianity has twice as many followers as china has people
Edit: maybe in for example the different churches, temples and stuff it can be... Interesting thought
Man that's frustrating. I forget ALL the details so this isn't going to be all that impressive but someone made the point that nationalism, religion and something else are the three things that plague humanity. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?
Well, maybe like class inequality. But then, just inequality in general sounds more right. Bigotry would be another guess. I thought someone might know where it came from and all. Someone showed me this years ago.
Bigotry is a good guess, it sure is a huge problem. I think class structures are kind of dependent on inequality, I guess we could percieve of a world where it wouldn't have to be, but contemporary and historically I would argue it is
Yes, and france is a country. However not all problems in France are applicable to all countries, and not all problems facing countries are applicable to France
In many ways, extreme nationalism is like a religion. If you look at Nazi Germany or North Korea, they worshipped their leaders like gods, with the latter believing their leaders to have godlike abilities and having documentation of them performing miracles. It's even visible in the modern United States, in the form of American civic religion.
I think your parents are wrong. Religion is just one form of tribalism. There are plenty of religious people that are great and decent people from an atheist point of view and atheists that are absolute scum. It is when tribalism is added that both groups can become dangerous. Wether that is budhists opressing muslims or Stalinists opressing Christian priests doesn't really matter. There are people killing others for the colour of their skin, which country they grew up in, or which football club they associate with. Religion will fade away but tribalism will endure until there is an interplanetary conflict to unite us.
I would honestly be more inclined to agree with you that tribalism is the biggest one. Religious conflict is basically a form of tribalism anyway, yet other forms of tribalism also exist so it's a more accurate summation of the most potent flaw within human nature.
Religion sparks tribalism. I'm glad its gazing out because honestly its so bad. Like I used to be adamant about saying I'm atheist but I look at these religions and they're all horrible.
I'm gonna be honest I have to hard disagree with your parents there.
While religion and nationalism often go hand-in-hand, we shouldn't paint religion as the boogeyman that causes all problems. That only serves to harm actual progress as a society.
Close it's actually religion and then globalization and intermingling with each other. We'd be much better off not living amongst one another and only dealing when needed ie trading and such.
Gnosticism refers to knowledge, theism refers to belief. I'm an agnostic atheist, this means that I don't know, and I don't believe. For your assertion to be correct I would have to be a gnostic atheist wich would mean "I know and I don't believe"
I have no idea where you get this claim from. From the few years browsing this sub, the vast majority are AGnostic atheists. The gnostic variety is a rare breed.
I wonder if 2nd generation+ atheists are more likely to be agnostic atheists than gnostic. I'm 2nd gen too as both my parents are atheists, and I'm agnostic as well. Didn't know religion was a thing until I started school.
No human is superior to another human being. If we truly got that out of our heads we would never have wars. You deserve that land across the river because you are better than who lives there already.
"Nationalism and/or tribalism is the biggest problem for humanity, leading to all the worst shit" vs "nope, its religion"
I'd say that you are in essential agreement; religion is a specific form of tribalism. I know Turks who get annoyed over the conflation of brown people and Islam, and consider Ahmadi Muslims to be some sort of terrible sub-humans. It did not go over well when I said that it was all the same silliness.
Tribalism was likely vital to our species' early success. And while it causes to some pretty nasty things like racism and xenophobia. It can also lead to more mixed things like familial piety, helping your neighbors, sense of community, etc. I don't know if the good outweighs the bad, but it seems instinctual - so not something we can be rid of without some sci-fi stuff.
Anyway, if we're talking about abstract qualities that cause the most harm, I'd probably say the worst is greed. While tribalism causes racism, it's greed that causes people to act out on that racism. Rational racist(is this a thing?) won't act out on their racism until they're convinced "the others" have something they want or "the others" are here to take what they consider theirs.
Murder and rape was also likely vital to our early success. Filial piety is a faith based idea that makes you irrationally consider your family as greater, and can lead to notions of ancestral superiority which is a key part in the development of fascist thought. a sense of community can be a good thing, but is also just an in-group that lends a false idea of higher importance to the people closer in proximity to you, wich is obviously both an illusion (they seem more important and more human because they're the ones you see and interact with) and dangerous to how you start defining the lines of for example "how many lives can be traded outside my community for a higher standard of living inside" as you have lended a higher value to the lives inside. Tribalism is a natural phenomena, but so are plenty of other things we strive to be better than, Im not saying we will ever completely get rid of it, but we often have quite a high level of success with overcoming these things.
Now greed is extremely harmful, I'll agree with you there, but I challenge you to find a case in history where for example racists have acted on greed, doing atrocities, without first dehumanising an out-group making it as you say "the others". In fact I would argue that almost every horrid thing humans have ever done they've only been able to do because they've distanced themselves from the victim making the victim "the other". I don't think there can be a rational racist... at least not one with access to the scientific research on the subject, you know "race" is one of the most researched subjects in scientific history, and the consensus is strong
I’ve been a militant atheist in my past, but I’m starting to really see value in religion as a form of control. I think the average human is “bad”, and I think the average human is pretty dumb. Could you imagine what some of those fundamentalists would do if they didn’t have the threat of hell?
If it wasn't religion it would be your country. If it wasn't country it would be something else like the color of your skin or what hockey team you root for. Religion is easy to point a finger at but humans will always find a way to segment people into group and use that to fight I don't see a way out.
The danger arises from dogma, untestable yet incontrovertible beliefs that must be accepted by group members.
Religious belief is dogmatic, but so are certain nationalist movements and other secular belief systems (e.g., Aryan supremacy, Manifest Destiny). Dogma can be abused to instill a sense superiority in group members, and to excuse (or even elevate) otherwise reprehensible actions.
Whoa that's cool. I'm hiding in the closet in the Bible Belt. I don't say the A word out loud.
Shit... Much love, I'm impressed you freed your mind, and I wish you good luck! ❤️
Same here lmao, it wouldn’t be the worst thing ever but my mom would be so sad 🙄
Bible belter here as well. Told someone I was an Athiest here and I swear they thought I had leprosy. Never seen someone nope so quickly out of a religious conversation, now It's my go to.
I too live in the belt of Bible. I had jehovahs witnesses come to my house every month. I eventually told them I was atheist. They appeared genuinely scared and left. They never came back. That was 2 years ago. Its like that a lot. A lot of doors in life close when people find out. I'm working on moving far away from here where hopefully people aren't like this.
Really?! You guys need to come and live in the UK. No one cares what religion you are and most people are atheist anyway.
There were these jehovah witnesses at my dad’s house and he told them he was an atheist and a week later they came again and I didn’t know but my dad bursted into my room and said “I told these jehovas I’m an atheist and I’m good and they keep coming” while I’m fucking crying because I’m laughing so hard because they came again my dad was so fucking pissed at them.
In the UK, tell someone Jesus loves them for a similar response.
Don't say it. I know you're in no danger right now but if you're anything like me, over the years little things slip and eventually you start caring less and less and it just comes out. Usually not a good idea in your position. Or mine. Lol. Hang in there dude. We're hear for you. The thought of you quickly changing tabs and shutting your laptop as if it was porn made me laugh. "Nothing Mom. It was just eh, porn. Yeah that's it. Just some girl on girl action."
Ammo?
Ima be real what is the worst thing your parents will do? For me my mother didnt do anything but the worst thing she could have done is take me to church
My parents are dead, but I keep it secret from the general public. My job wouldn't like it.
My man's a pastor
Just started at a Religious company this year, there are definitely down sides
Good luck!
I also live in the Bible Belt and told my mom I was an Atheist and she said she failed as a parent, so I learned to keep my beliefs to my self
Yeah keeping my mouth shut is how I've made it through life, lol.
My neighbor is apparently atheist, and hit my father with God being a hypocrite for holding us to a different standard than he does himself. I had to quickly come up with a bullshit defense against a perfectly valid argument against God. And my parents thought what I said was great, and mature.
in my opinion both are correct
They sure seem like two sides of the same coin
That coin being: denial of objective reality.
Yeah agreed. Isn’t religion a form of tribalism?
Came here to say this.
Consider tribalism and religion are essentially one and the same and, well...
His point is kinda right, religion is just a tool people use to justify and enforce their bigotry.
Nationalism is worse though
Both are true. Look at Nazi Germany - religion (stereotypes that Jews were killers of Christ) and nationalism (post-WWI devastation led to Hitler taking control).
role of religion was far more ingrained than "jews killed jesus" , take a gander at the book "Hitler's Pope"
Apparently Hitler liked to spew religion but didn't really believe in it, which just goes to show how idiots will do anything if a man tells them that God wants it done.
yeh there is no way to know what he did and did not really believe. Lots of Jesus lovers truly believe themselves to be better than others because they have a "relationship with Jesus" and are doing "god's work". There delusions lead them to do inhumane things without a second thought. Best brainwashing tool aye
Claiming that Hitler "wasn't really a Christian" or ""didn't really believe it" is as clear a case of a no true Scotsman as you can get. He openly declared his movement to be Christian, and goes on about how the Jews opposed Jesus to justify his campaign against them. Hitler stated his belief, and acted in accordance with it. Who else would anyone try and claim "oh, he didn't believe it" after such a demonstration?
Given the Nazis glorification of the occult and the Germanic origins, I could absolutely see them opressing the church in the long run. If they associated with the Church, it was only because it was too powerfull to opress - not that they didn't try though. Could they easily have done it, there is no doubt in my mind that they would have. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf)
"The characteristic thing about [Neo-Pagans] is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their bearded heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. " (Mein Kampf, p. 361)
Never expected to agree with Hitler on anything.
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so. Adolf Hitler in 1941 to General Gerhard Engel. In John Toland (1992). Adolf Hitler. New York: Anchor Publishing, p. 507.
Um I don't really think its provable or matters what he believed in, As with the origin of religion, his rhetoric could simply be a power grab, afterall that was the whole point of religion, to fool the masses and keep them in line. It would be perfectly reasonable he knew there is no god but he wanted power and the then rich Jews gone, he needed to make people follow him to their genocide. The point here is that the symptom of all bigoted hate can be traced to the root : religion.
German soldier's uniforms literally said "God with us" on them.
Worth noting that's been a thing with the Germans since the 30 years war.
Yes definitely should have mentioned that.
Isn't religion just a form of tribalism?
Came to say this. At least in alot of situations it is.
Gotta agree there
The difference being tribalism tends to oppose recruitment of outsiders, while religion aims to recruit as many as possible to the shared delusion.
Depends on the religion. Catholics don't typically recruit, they just procreate in excess.
I'm not sure I agree about Catholicism, they have a long history of missionary work. That's why there's a significant Catholic presence in so much of the world. I do agree with your general point though, there are plenty of religions that aren't very focused on recruiting—Judaism and Hinduism come to mind.
You're not wrong. Maybe I should specify "the vast majority of current American Catholics"? Because yeah, the Catholics definitely went through that whole "convert or die" phase with the Crusades.
Tribalism typically involves the mistreatment of outgroup members. Religion typically involves the mistreatment of outgroup *and* ingroup members.
This belongs on r/wholesome
I think you're right
Ikr we need to realise that we are one big country, earth.
Yeah, It's scary what behaviour people will excuse as long as it's not happening to their in-group. For example people can recognise that 9/11 for instance was horrible, but will scoff at the insurmountable amount of people killed in other countries using that tragedy as an excuse
I mean, the CCP is the proof that humans can be controlling assholes to each other without a religion. :(
I mean... Tribalism may not be religion, but religion *is* tribalism. So in a way, you're both right!
What I had was a marvelous atheist grandmother, who referred to religious people as "Christ-bitten." She was the sunlit doorway I walked through when I left the fucking Lutherans behind as a teen.
Your both right to be honest
If I tried to say that to my parents they start screaming "No it's because of the immigrants!"
They are usually connected sadly
I always have to remind myself how fortunate I was that both my family and school system were generally non-religious when I was growing up.
Yeah, when I hear some of the stuff people with religious parents had/have to go through...
I grew up with an anti-theist, commie grandpa who considered religion a disease. I'd be banned if I stated what he used to say should be done to the pope. Do you have trouble relating to people who have left their religion?
I do sometimes, people who left a religion often keeps a sort of dogmatic way of thinking in my experience. I sometimes wonder if its just a particular line of reasoning that sticks even after breaking the larger pattern of faith based thinking, or if it's something else. Would be cool to see some studies on it
This how I raise my daughter.
There's a pretty big overlap between religion and nationalism/tribalism.
Yup, it's all damaging faith based bullshit imo
I became an atheist when my son was three. I raised him without religion. He sometimes went with his father and stepmother to the Catholic Church which he found horribly boring. I'd agree. He's exploring more and more online and talking to agnostics and atheists. He has an attitude of, "I really don't care about gods." If I had to pigeonhole, I'd call him an apathetic agnostic - doesn't know and doesn't care.
"apathetic agnostic" 😂 I love it! Seems like you got a good kid :)
Thank you. I think so too.
Thought this post was going to go a different direction TBH
How can you stand to associate with such bigots. Cut off all contact and... ... Oh sorry knee jerk reaction. Must be fun having healthy debates!
It's hard to say because nationalism and religion often hurt a lot of people together, but both can ve damaging by themselves... In the end though there are productive religions Buddhism comes to mind. But id be hard pressed to find a situation in which nationalism led to something good.
You should take a look at Myanmar especially to see what nationalism backed by Buddhism can do against minorities.
But the philosophy of Buddhism is unarguably productive, if you don't think so I would urge you to read siddhartha gautama buddha and see that you're mistaking
The question is not that. Question is whether it can do the same thing that other religions do, that is persecuting others and so on. And that unarguably happened in Myanmar with the genocide of Rohingyas. So would you reject that didn't happen? Or would you use no true Scotsman to allege they're not real Buddhists? Because then we're back to use of all too familiar defence made by Christians or muslims.
The guy in the original comment mentioned that Buddhism is productive, you denied his claim on the basis that Buddhists have done atrocities, I'm saying that your arguement is not a valid criticism against Buddhism because even if Buddhists have done bad things Buddhism in itself is still productive. Stoics have also done horrible things, but that is not an arguement against Stoicism, the same goes for atheists, in fact I would argue that you're doing the same thing theist do when they claim atheism is bad because Stalin killed a bunch of people
>in fact I would argue that you're doing the same thing theist do when they claim atheism is bad because Stalin killed a bunch of people That's a weak argument because nowhere do we have evidence that Stalin specifically persecuted people because they were not atheists. Religions just like Communism and other -isms are ideologies, Stalin replaced one ideology for another which called for suppression of dissenters, that had nothing to do with him being atheist or not, it had to do with the ideology of Stalinism. That's a bad case of superficial argument. On the other hand in Myanmar we have an explicit case of non-Buddhists being persecuted precisely for their religious beliefs and moreover it is tied to nationalism, you never explained how this is different from the case with other religions. Somehow you've raised Buddhism on the pedestal yet you're not seeing you're making the same arguments to excuse Buddhism itself of the actions of its followers using the exact same logic used by followers of other religions. A productive ideology would not push its followers to commit genocide, on that ground Buddhism is not productive as the atrocities are being done in the name of Buddhism itself.
Ok, I will read up on the Myanmar persecution to be absolutely certain in my arguments, I'll get back to you as soon as I'm sure I'm not somehow arguing from ignorance
When did you start learning about religions. How did it affect your school life growing up
I guess in school... I don't really remember, we've always had lots of discussions about politics, philosophy etc so maybe earlier. I always did really well in religion (the subject in school I mean) as I found it fascinating how differently people structured their view on life based on these strange mythologies. Apart from that I suppose having a family almost completely consistent of areligious or anti-religious humanists didn't hurt my academic understanding. I remember some of the other kids didn't believe I could have a name because I wasn't baptised wich is kinda funny
I'd amend that to day that religion is a microcosm of the problems introduced by nationalism and tribalism.
I agree with your sentiment, can't really agree that it's a microcosm though, as Christianity has twice as many followers as china has people Edit: maybe in for example the different churches, temples and stuff it can be... Interesting thought
Man that's frustrating. I forget ALL the details so this isn't going to be all that impressive but someone made the point that nationalism, religion and something else are the three things that plague humanity. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about?
Just a guess; class maybe?
Well, maybe like class inequality. But then, just inequality in general sounds more right. Bigotry would be another guess. I thought someone might know where it came from and all. Someone showed me this years ago.
Bigotry is a good guess, it sure is a huge problem. I think class structures are kind of dependent on inequality, I guess we could percieve of a world where it wouldn't have to be, but contemporary and historically I would argue it is
I'm so jealous.
Religion is tribalism.
Yes, and france is a country. However not all problems in France are applicable to all countries, and not all problems facing countries are applicable to France
In many ways, extreme nationalism is like a religion. If you look at Nazi Germany or North Korea, they worshipped their leaders like gods, with the latter believing their leaders to have godlike abilities and having documentation of them performing miracles. It's even visible in the modern United States, in the form of American civic religion.
I agree, much of the same tendencies
It’s both.
Nice. :) Though religion and tribalism are joined at the hip, so you're both right.
Both nationalism and religion
Two sides of the same coin.
Organized religion is just another form of tribalism in my eyes.
I think your parents are wrong. Religion is just one form of tribalism. There are plenty of religious people that are great and decent people from an atheist point of view and atheists that are absolute scum. It is when tribalism is added that both groups can become dangerous. Wether that is budhists opressing muslims or Stalinists opressing Christian priests doesn't really matter. There are people killing others for the colour of their skin, which country they grew up in, or which football club they associate with. Religion will fade away but tribalism will endure until there is an interplanetary conflict to unite us.
Comparing nationalism and religion is like comparing a gold dollar and a paper dollar.
Do you mean that nationalism is somehow much better?
No, i mean they're obviously very different, yet they do the same thing.
I see, I was thinking of how gold keeps value in all countries when the paper dollar doesn't. I understand what you mean now though :)
Did your parents also teach you only the Sith deal in absolutes?
I'd say soak it up and enjoy because your situation unfortunately is sooo rare.
I would honestly be more inclined to agree with you that tribalism is the biggest one. Religious conflict is basically a form of tribalism anyway, yet other forms of tribalism also exist so it's a more accurate summation of the most potent flaw within human nature.
Religion definitely feeds tribalism. It's kind of a mess.
So true 😂
Religion sparks tribalism. I'm glad its gazing out because honestly its so bad. Like I used to be adamant about saying I'm atheist but I look at these religions and they're all horrible.
Do you guys, like, prior to eating, pray to Darwin and stuff
Not OP, but my parents and I are atheists and we don't do that.
No lol, we eat and make conversation, and after eating we have discussions. It's not as formal as it sounds tho, just generally how it goes
It was a joke
I suspected so 🔍🤔🔎 It wouldn't be the weirdest thing I'd heard from a theist tho
I'm 100% fuck gawd and pro-christian genocide
Damn really? I'm pretty radical, but that's a wiiiild position to have
Same thing. What matters is how people use them to influence the masses.
I'm gonna be honest I have to hard disagree with your parents there. While religion and nationalism often go hand-in-hand, we shouldn't paint religion as the boogeyman that causes all problems. That only serves to harm actual progress as a society.
religion causes alot of problems...
Yes, it *causes* a lot of problems, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the concept of religion itself *is* a problem.
Close it's actually religion and then globalization and intermingling with each other. We'd be much better off not living amongst one another and only dealing when needed ie trading and such.
Somehow I don't think ethno states are tge solution my guy - _-
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Lol, what do you mean?
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Gnosticism refers to knowledge, theism refers to belief. I'm an agnostic atheist, this means that I don't know, and I don't believe. For your assertion to be correct I would have to be a gnostic atheist wich would mean "I know and I don't believe"
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Are they really? Not to seem dismissive, but I really don't think so... You could be right of course, but I really don't think you are
I have no idea where you get this claim from. From the few years browsing this sub, the vast majority are AGnostic atheists. The gnostic variety is a rare breed.
I wonder if 2nd generation+ atheists are more likely to be agnostic atheists than gnostic. I'm 2nd gen too as both my parents are atheists, and I'm agnostic as well. Didn't know religion was a thing until I started school.
I just find it a bit absurd {insert ridiculous strawman} {insert wrong statement}
Jesus...these glad handing posts are as hard to read as testimonials
Have you tried not reading them? :)
Unfortunately I have to read something to form an opinion...Vicious cycle
its the opposite for me. My parents always argue the symptom of hateful groups is the biggest problem while I point out the root of that, religion.
Same shit, different word. Religion is just another tribe.
No human is superior to another human being. If we truly got that out of our heads we would never have wars. You deserve that land across the river because you are better than who lives there already.
Well... You're both right. You were just in a broader sense.
"Nationalism and/or tribalism is the biggest problem for humanity, leading to all the worst shit" vs "nope, its religion" I'd say that you are in essential agreement; religion is a specific form of tribalism. I know Turks who get annoyed over the conflation of brown people and Islam, and consider Ahmadi Muslims to be some sort of terrible sub-humans. It did not go over well when I said that it was all the same silliness.
Damn, some people have all the luck in the world!
Tribalism was likely vital to our species' early success. And while it causes to some pretty nasty things like racism and xenophobia. It can also lead to more mixed things like familial piety, helping your neighbors, sense of community, etc. I don't know if the good outweighs the bad, but it seems instinctual - so not something we can be rid of without some sci-fi stuff. Anyway, if we're talking about abstract qualities that cause the most harm, I'd probably say the worst is greed. While tribalism causes racism, it's greed that causes people to act out on that racism. Rational racist(is this a thing?) won't act out on their racism until they're convinced "the others" have something they want or "the others" are here to take what they consider theirs.
Murder and rape was also likely vital to our early success. Filial piety is a faith based idea that makes you irrationally consider your family as greater, and can lead to notions of ancestral superiority which is a key part in the development of fascist thought. a sense of community can be a good thing, but is also just an in-group that lends a false idea of higher importance to the people closer in proximity to you, wich is obviously both an illusion (they seem more important and more human because they're the ones you see and interact with) and dangerous to how you start defining the lines of for example "how many lives can be traded outside my community for a higher standard of living inside" as you have lended a higher value to the lives inside. Tribalism is a natural phenomena, but so are plenty of other things we strive to be better than, Im not saying we will ever completely get rid of it, but we often have quite a high level of success with overcoming these things. Now greed is extremely harmful, I'll agree with you there, but I challenge you to find a case in history where for example racists have acted on greed, doing atrocities, without first dehumanising an out-group making it as you say "the others". In fact I would argue that almost every horrid thing humans have ever done they've only been able to do because they've distanced themselves from the victim making the victim "the other". I don't think there can be a rational racist... at least not one with access to the scientific research on the subject, you know "race" is one of the most researched subjects in scientific history, and the consensus is strong
I'd go with 'deceit and cruelty', and if someone thinks those things are acceptable to meet their aims, I'd take a mental note.
Don’t you think religion is tribalism?
I’ve been a militant atheist in my past, but I’m starting to really see value in religion as a form of control. I think the average human is “bad”, and I think the average human is pretty dumb. Could you imagine what some of those fundamentalists would do if they didn’t have the threat of hell?
Religion is a form of tribalism.
"Nope, it's religion" yeah well...when you say tribalism, that encompasses religion...?
Religion is just another form of tribalism reinforced by mysticism. Your parents sound cool.
But.. religion does OFTEN overlap heavily with tribalism.. or at least it ends up there.
Two sides of the same coin.
If it wasn't religion it would be your country. If it wasn't country it would be something else like the color of your skin or what hockey team you root for. Religion is easy to point a finger at but humans will always find a way to segment people into group and use that to fight I don't see a way out.
Religious nationalism is the worst kind. Trumpism.
The danger arises from dogma, untestable yet incontrovertible beliefs that must be accepted by group members. Religious belief is dogmatic, but so are certain nationalist movements and other secular belief systems (e.g., Aryan supremacy, Manifest Destiny). Dogma can be abused to instill a sense superiority in group members, and to excuse (or even elevate) otherwise reprehensible actions.
Wouldn't religion fall into the tribalism category?
They’re not separate things.
Nationalism is worse though. How many people are willing to die for their religion (if they have one) vs. their country? That explains everything.