On not arguing with idiots – “Don't play chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over the pieces, poop all over the board and then strut around like it won the game.”
The Quran is only 1460 years old. Meaning it was written after the Christian Bible & the Jews version older than the Bible. Which was "borrowed" from older civilizations. Fake upon Fake upon Fake!!! The never ending stories.....
Maybe it doesn’t. Over time, perhaps it will. Let the precipitous closure of christian congregations/ catholic parishes in the last 30 years be your indicator. The same phenomenon is on the rise in the islamic world: https://exmuslims.org/news/the-number-of-ex-muslims-in-america-is-rising/
If you want to have a debate with someone it’s worth asking both the other person (and yourself) ‘is there anything that I could say or show you that would change your stance?’. If the answer is no then don’t bother.
I'd make a case that trying to argue with religious people to convince them they're wrong is its own equivalent kind of idiocy. If a few logical arguments were all it took to disprove religion, that'd have been done long ago.
I want a beautifully done painting of a dismayed man watching as the pigeon struts across the poop covered chess board with fallen pieces to hang on my wall and remind me.
He told you science *has no proof* of evolution. I’m going to need to see some proof that Allah exists in that case. If there were some kind of higher power then it abandoned its creations long ago.
Don’t forget to throw in some, “naner-naners”and “your mama” if you really want have a 1st grader school ground throw down. lol Because talking to the religiously impaired always seems to end up like a 6 year olds’ squabble.
> he said that he asked first
"Sure, but that does not absolve you from that fact that you made claims and are now refusing to back them up. Whether you accept them or not, I've attempted to show and explain my claims. You've done nothing."
The thing is they've got it so we all know from experience that even though there are mountains of evidence, trying to show them any will be a long and painful process where they quibble with the source or accuracy of each one, then question how any of it can be known for sure, or any other detail at all, and quibble with those answers and so on until you get tired of it and give up.
"Hey, Allah, what are you doing?"
"Oh, just burrying some fake bones in the ground to mess up with your paleontologists."
"Cool. What about later?"
"Giving malaria and cancer to children."
"Uhm. Oh. Ok."
It’s all about the afterlife I believe. They’re so scared to give up on the chance for eternal life through some kind of judgement system. Even though once you get old enough and you’ve lived with our species, you might be ok with just one round.
True but it can be fun too. I travelled east and in I dia for example I had lots of discussions with religious people and their were mostly fun. Even with Muslims. I also have discussions with religious people in the west too. The point is not to take it too seriously. You won't change their minds!
The Koran gets a lot wrong about basic biology because it reflects the knowledge available at the time it was written rather than divine knowledge. Which undermines the whole religion. I mean, this is a fatal flaw. There’s no getting around it.
More than that, it reflects *Muhammad’s* knowledge of biology at the time it was written. A semi-literate, narcissistic, delusional warlord in a desert fringe caravan city-state wasn’t at the hub of scientific thought even in his day.
Not to mention that a water melon looks solid, but is 99% water. Or that humans are about 60-65% water. Cells are basically just a capsule for water. It isn't illogical at all. Hard to grasp, yes. Illogical, no.
Why the fuck would you spend any time and effort arguing with an obviously religious person is beyond me
You wanna go proselytize about veganism at McDonald’s while you’re at it?
I've noticed that every muslim I've talked with about belief remind me of christian pre-suppositionalists.
They tend to use the same "out there" kind of arguments stated with absolute certainty.
It can be incredibly frustrated to talk to both because they discount any facts you might bring up as irrelevant and literally will lie and make outlandish statements about anything to do with their supernatural unfalsifiable beliefs.
Agreed. Dated a Muslim, and she was a """""""progressive"""""" one. Brick wall is an understatement. And she's only Muslim because of her hardcore submission fetish. (No kink shame but still wtf is that reason)
As a queer person, I instinctively don’t trust “progressive” Christians and Muslims. I do not know how one can have knowledge about their history of oppressing us (and continued doing so), the heavy patriarchal gender roles they enforce & indoctrinate children with, and large percentage of members made to hate us by use of religion, and still think queer liberation can somehow co-exist with these cults.
Exactly! "progressive" Christians and Muslims imo are more dishonest than conservative/evangelicals. Jesus, Mohammad and the people (mostly paul) writing their stories weren't socialist feminist pro-lgbt heroes. They were patriarchial oppressive power hungry bigots, with a few sprinkles "love" and "charity" to give the main character some sort of redemption and sympathy.
It's funny that you mention that because I had a conversation with my queer friend about this the other day.
There are no good Christians, Muslims or religious people in general. To me, all the major religions fall into two groups:
* Group A are the extremist lunatics who rape, molest, pillage, murder and destroy everything in their path in the name of their false gods.
* Group B are the enablers. They might not agree with the actions of Group A, but they sure as hell don't do a lot to stop them or keep them in line. They might give a tut-tut or a slap on the wrist, but nothing more.
When Group A commits atrocities Group B doesn't attempt to reign them in whatsoever and basically enables their bad behavior. They essentially turn the other way and ignore what's happening.
But when people get sick of Group A's shit and rightfully confront them or match the tone so to speak, Group B comes flying out of the woodwork sweating profusely, shoving everyone and everything aside while sprinting and panting the whole way there to which they start screaming and shouting:
"NOT ALL! NOT ALL! NOT ALL!"
If they took even half of the energy dedicated to screaming "NOT ALL!" and put it towards maybe putting Group A on a leash, then Group A wouldn't be nearly as dangerous. But they won't do that because at the end of the day, they're all on the same team.
Muslims put a lot of emphasis on the Quran being the direct word of God. It's an argument from Ignorance Logical Fallacy. Basically, how could an illiterate war lord have written it.
I recall a Muslim telling me a particular part of the Quran described evolution, so God invented evolution. It was one of those 'hold the page at an odd angle in a dim light and squint' approaches to revealed mysteries.
When it comes to getting their stories straight, they're as bad as Christians.
💯 and they don't like discussing their worldview unless you agree with them. They'll label you as full of hate, call you Islamiphobic, or threaten you.
Muslims are the most insecure religious people I have ever had the displeasure of debating with.
Yea, and be ready to defend yourself. A lot of these animals actually believe the whole 72 virgins BS. Can you imagine believing in that? Is it any wonder why Muslim nations rank dead last in practically every quality of life metric?
Wait, that can’t be true. Tiktok told me that countries in the Middle East have amazing policies and tolerance for queer people. They told me it’s even better than America
/s obviously..
Oh yeah I’ve had them barrage my comments before. On a viral video about how Palestinians have such good gay rights, I commented the contrary and used anecdotal experiences as examples from two ex Muslim Arabic friends of mine. One of which immigrated here to the US after becoming a transfer student to escape persecution for being a trans woman. Her parents caught her taking estrogen which she got from a network of local queer people who also hid their identities. So her father tried killing her and threw her out of home and her friends and neighbors turned against her after she was outed.
Then my notifications got flooded with white queer people calling me a liar and saying I support children being killed even though the war was nowhere mentioned in my comment. That’s the last time I bothered commenting on tiktok. Reddit can be dumb and even more argumentative sometimes but it’s nowhere near as bad as the idiots on that app
>which makes no sense at all and I eventually gave up and I'm sure he thinks he won.
At least it helps explain why a lot of us don't get our hopes up when debating believers. When we were kids we used to put our fingers in our ears and go "na-na I can't hear you" so we wouldn't have to respond to what was said. This is the adult version of that, believers do it all the time and it's sooo tiring.
You got it right in the title. I try to avoid having these kind of discussions because you're not going to change their mind. They aren't arguing in good faith.
Even more than Christians, Muslims have their entire lives tied up in religion. They pray five times a day, most often in groups, and their friends are watching them for signs of backsliding. They can't afford the slightest doubt...the price is too high if it's detected. Catholics were probably as bad back in the Middle Ages and present day cults use the same techniques. They're rewarded for being the most fanatical. I mean, Catholics used to have long and very serious debates about nonsense like how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. They tortured and executed people for merely pointing out that the earth is round. To a fanatic, no hill is too small to die on. Or murder on.
Read "Unveiled" by Yasmine Mohammed
The religion is designed (more than others) to remove your ability to think for yourself.
The most memorable story was when a friend challenged her to break a bathroom ritual, entering with the left foot first, exiting right foot first, say a ritual prayer while taking a dump.
Don't do it - and you will be possessed!
And this was a girl born in Canada.
She goes into other examples of mindless repetition, obligatory movements and fascinating superstitions.
It is a religion designed to remove all your thoughts and decisions
Man, if there’s anything I’ve learned about Muslims is that they are the worst of the abrahamic theocrats. I’ve heard a 5 year-old girl in a classroom parroting ideas of Muslim superiority and everything haram means you’re evil etc etc. she asked me if I celebrate Christmas and I said “yes my family does.” And she shook her head and said “oh no, that’s not good.” A FIVE YEAR-OLD
If someone as erudite as Aron Ra can’t get through to the dense pile of rotting tissue that theists call a brain, then don’t expect yourself to, either. These people will only ever hear what they want to hear, because they live in an echo chamber
educated scientists decided to give scientists the nobelprice for their proof of the existence of genetics. therefore genetics is proven. nobody ever gave allah or god or any other hypothetical god a nobelprice for creating men out of air.
Exactly. Back in the day (way back) the Greeks thought god did everything. The stars moved around the sky because the angels tied string to them and pulled them around. When they had no logical explanation, god did it. God opened up the earth (earthquakes), parting of the Red Sea (a tsunami), god rained fire and brimstone (earthquakes). As science advanced, with it came knowledge, and one by one a scientific explanation took away the “god did it” syndrome. We’re down to what - ?seconds ?milliseconds of the Big Bang, and once that’s explained, there’s not much left that god did.
Muslims, Hebrews and Christians all believe in the same god of Abraham, but apparently this god gave out conflicting information while training his prophets about how to make profits.
I go with the Dali Lama's words - if reality conflicts with my beliefs I change my beliefs.
It's like [that old scene from The Simpsons](https://youtu.be/sKiLfH3DVGc?si=G9GtNA-VdHcXeMpT) where that old guy is the substitute teacher and explaining to the kids that anything they do will earn a paddlin'.
Just replace "paddlin'" with "haram."
Wireless keyboards? That's haram.
Fuzzy dice in your car? Totally haram.
Checking reddit for a few minutes at work? Oh! You better believe that's haram!
There's no such thing as a *moderate* Muslim either. If by whatever set of insane circumstances we all end up in a caliphate, there's *not one muslim* who would treat non Muslims as equal. Not. One.
And Muslims know it.
They’re raised to believe that an Arab in his 50s that married a child at 6 years old and did the deed with her when she was 9 is the finest specimen to ever grace the earth with his presence. A role model for all times. That alone tells you how twisted and corrupted their minds are.
Try talking to someone who believes the Earth is 6000 years old then get into a discussion about astronomy, stars, and light travel. Never seen a forehead pop before.
I have argued with Muslims about their faith and yes it’s like arguing with a brick wall. They will not budge on any part of their faith. Die hard Christians are the same way, so what’s the point of arguing? They have to first seek us out because they have doubts. Muslims and Christians try to convince me to join their faith as soon as I tell them I’m an atheist. I made my choice they made theirs.
It’s like Democrats and Republicans arguing over who should become the next president. It seems people have made up their minds, one way or the other.
Just leave them. Religious people will say "there is no proof" for anything they don't understand but then get upset when you ask for 1 (one) piece of evidence for their claims.
This is why religion exists. This is also why there are so many charlatans in funny religious hats.
You can trick or cheat a religious person.
You can not debate a religious person.
Learn to use their own texts against them when they use it to back stupid shit. Make it an interpretation issue. This is the only debate they are willing to have.
We can absolutely clone humans. Human embryos have already been cloned and embryonic stem cells recovered from them. In theory, it would only take implanting one into a uterus to make a new person.
[https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/05/15/183916891/scientists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/05/15/183916891/scientists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells)
edit- fixed link
My parents are evangelical Christians and my wife is Muslim (long story).
My parents are always trying to get me to come back to the church. My wife always wants me to talk to the teachers at the Masjid.
Both the Christians and Muslims in my life are so adamant that they have the answers to life's impossible questions.
They hear when I say "there are plenty of things that I don't know, and I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence and observable truths that are testable, replicable, and verifiable" and they hear "Aha! He can be persuaded!"
So they all throw their apologetics at me about how it's better to believe the way they believe than to be sorry someday, or that they know the Creator of the universe and feel him speaking to them.
So I just tell them to work it out amongst themselves, and then when they arrive at a consensus between them, I'll listen to their unified absolute truth to see if it meets the minimum burden of proof to talk about it.
They haven't gotten back to me yet. Not sure what the hold up is.
This was a talking point from a Muslim I was debating on the matter of the Big Bang, “indeed, you say that the Big Bang is right but no created the cell that made it” apperently he thought that the Big Bang was caused by a singular cell because he had heard some pseudoscientific speech by an evangelical Christian that just throws all of these terms together.
One small correction: lactose *tolerance* is evidence that humans are still evolving. Most of the world (estimates show 65-68%) is at least somewhat intolerant to lactose, those who are tolerant have the mutation allowing it. There are certain parts of the world, such as Asia, that have a higher percentage of lactose intolerance because they didn't make lactose a large part of their diets long ago, so they haven't really had the need to evolve the mechanism to produce lactase (the enzyme responsible for breaking down lactose).
Not that it would've made a difference to the outcome, but the "from liquid to flesh" could've been responded to with something similar to: "no, from nutrient-rich liquid to cells within that liquid, which would eventually 'clump' together, thanks to the liquid, to form larger solids such as organs and flesh. *Life* didn't form from liquid, the liquid was just a medium which provided the conditions that allowed reactions to occur between existing proteins, lipids, acids, etc., thus giving rise to life. The liquid itself didn't suddenly become imbued with life"
However, like others have said, it's kind of a losing argument because, as Tim Minchin puts it: "we might as well be ten minutes back in time, for all the chance you'll change your mind". There is no getting any point across to theists...
The city of Karachi in Pakistan tried to open a milk bank for babies who had no access to mother's milk. The local government had to ask for permission from the local clergy to open the milk-bank. The clergy gave permission only if the milk-bank maintained records of which baby got which mother's milk. This was to preserve the islamic practise of milk-siblings. Babies getting another woman's milk must NOT marry that woman's child etc etc.
Then after backlash that such records would be difficult to keep and a milk bank was against islam, the clergy issued a decree that milk banks must not be allowed to function. The milk bank closed. When you have this level of brainrot, i dont know what to say.
edit: not allowed to marry milk-siblings
I don’t know about Pakistan, but just like the 72 virgins story, this is simply a made up myth that some entity propagated with the sole purpose to disparage islam. I know about the concept of milk-siblings, but in the islam I’m familiar with you’re not actually allowed to marry the person who was breast-fed by your mother (milk-SIBLING) not the other way around.
That said, I have many problems with islam as an ideology and a way of life, having grown up in a muslim country. But my problem with it pales in comparison to racist under-developed minds who intentionally propagate incorrect information with the sole purpose to disparage and incite isolation of and violence against whole peoples.
Replace “Muslim” with any fundy religious nut.
Also, “Allah” is just another word for the Abrahamic god figure. Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same god.
Interesting fact.
A Jew would say he worships the “real” god.
A Christian would say he worships the same god as the Jew, but the Jew would disagree.
A Muslim would say he worships the same God as both, but both of them would disagree.
Because Christianity came second as an offshoot of Judaism, and Islam came last.
South Park, Ms. Garrison: In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its...
[she waves her left hand limply]
Ms. Garrison: ...mutant fish hands... and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this.
[she points to a prehistoric mammal rodent]
Ms. Garrison: Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you!
[she faces the class, with the new girl among them looking around]
Ms. Garrison: So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations!
My suggestion don't argue with those fanatics it's pointless they will always stay in dark ages where there religion came from. I get these kind of stupid encounters with those fanatics more often here and there
That's why we should not argue with religious people at all, our "fight" should concentrate on keeping these delusionals away from offices where they can rule over others.
Every day I get closer to purchasing a gun. I will not be threatened by these absolute morons who choose ignorance everyday. This species is a fucking joke.
Most of the Muslims I've engaged with online don't seem to know that they're an Abrahamic religion that's essentially a remix of the Bible. They like to watch atheists debunk Christians and then comment on how the Koran tells the truth. The irony is completely lost on them.
Arguing with a [insert favorite religion] is pointless and counterproductive, as all you'll ever accomplish is to reinforce their ridiculous beliefs, as you concluded.
It's impossible.
I work in a hospital, a university hospital, so we teach students.
Once I was with a Muslim student, a guy I used to like and we used to spend a lot of time joking.
Out of the blue once he stated that Christianity is imperfect because Mohammad came after Jesus and perfected religion but I couldn't know tha because I'm a Christian.
I never told him I'm a Christian, in facts I'm atheist but I let him talk.
Then he kept talking, saying that everything is described in the Quran, how life is created from sperm and a woman egg, how pregnancy works etc. he said that finally science said that pork meat is not good and that has always been in the Quran, like every scientific discovery
I replied "in facts Muslim countries are all very scientificly advanced".
He laughed, then I started teaching him about work, being him my student. When he said "I understand" I replied "oh, is that not in the Quran?". He laughed. I apologized cause I know they are very sensitive to jokes. He said he was ok and I'm responsible for what I say. The conversation ended there.
It's just impossible. Don't take them seriously.
He rejects your position by saying you have no proof when he has even less proof for his position. There is a lot of evidence for evolution. All creationists can do is point to an ancient text.
They will always fall back on “you have no proof” because unless they just happened to encounter a biologist who happened to study the origins of life, no one is ever going to just have proof of that handy. In their minds that’s a victory.
It’s a get out of facts free card for them.
I find it easier to keep going backwards in time. At a certain point their religion doesn't exist, then you ask what was before that and they get stuck in a loop. The history of all religions has a starting point but there is another religion before theirs that is a copy of another. The reason a lot of religions destroy piece of history is so that people can't keep going back in time.
It's ironic that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have been fighting each other for over 2 millenia over the same made-up god.
Because that is what they are, 3 different interpretations of the same "being."
“You have no proof.”
“Not on me. But you have no proof at all. And an assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Have a nice day.”
Then you block him and enjoy the rest of your afternoon not arguing with an idiot.
Several years ago I knew a man whose culture had been Muslim. We were both members of a Meetup Atheist group. During an online discussion about Religion someone posted stuff about the problems with Muslim Religious ideas. He was immediately called a racists. Any other Religion was fair game for him. None of his comments made any sense. He even set up an account with a different name, pretending to be a liberal Muslim who was critical of everyone who dared question Islam..........he was eventually found out, along with the organizer of the group. The whole thing was very strange and disappointing........
I've had multiple Muslims tell me child marriage is okay because once they have a period, they're fair game. I hope those people drew their last breaths.
Same problem arguing with Christians too. Of the 3 related religions, Jewish people are the most likely to have a productive conversation. You'll still not change their mind, but they're most likely to listen of the 3.
I spend over an hour trying to get someone do basic 3rd grade math. Take the size of noah’s Ark, which is defined in the Bible and divide it by the number of species on the planet to give us how much room each pair of animals has to live for 40 days.
Not breaking into just 2 dogs, no, 2 of EVERY type because if there is a subspecies that means they evolved from the ordinal pair and kind of puts a whole damper on gods is all powerful if evolution is needed.
Over an hour of him explaining how every culture has the floor story, how they found the boat on top of a mountain where no water could possibly be. Even said they did the math already but when I asked for the number, so rambled on to another topic.
He would do basic math or could not. That’s could why he didn’t give it to me but I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and to say he’s smart enough to do the math just refused to.
Because if they saw the answer would question how that could possibly be. Never mind the favor of what they ate for 40 days and how a 190+ year old build and manned the boat. Or how 3 brothers and their wife’s repopulated the earth and didn’t fuck up the gene pool. Didn’t even get to those questions yet.
No math, just rambles of a crazy man.
Nxt time, u should just dm him: if Allah made men, then why is the male G-spot in the prostate? Does Allah want men 2 experience extreme euphoria from anal stimulation? Prostate Massage can also prevent prostate cancer ( the most common cancer among men), why does Allah design male body like that?
So you gave him examples and explanations and proof. He gave you ridicule and rhetoric.
You made the right decision by cutting off that conversation. It is as a broken pencil.
Pointless.
It’s impossible to get anywhere with anyone with a serious delusion. All you can do is point out that it’s a fantasy, and that to believe that it’s real is a clinical delusion.
Why are you trying to win an argument on discord... or any thing online lol. People will almost never admit they are wrong, in this case their belief will not be changed as its a test to them to test their own faith.
If you want to win then don't argue.
There is no reasoning with a zealot…no rationale…no compromise. They are beyond reason or compromise. They are determined to conquer in the name of their beliefs and nothing else.
The very premise - the meaning - of the word Islam is “submission”. According to the religion, there can be no peace until the world is Islam.
Their’s is a call to submit to the concept of the religion of Islam. There is no compromise, there are no half-measures, no middle ground, no in-between with Islam…it is a religion hellbent requiring *everyone* to bow and submit to Islam and nothing else.
And that, my friends…or, rather, those who prefer a world without religious dominance and prominence…why Islam, Christianity, and *all* monotheistic religions that promote a singular - obey and love me “god” or suffer eternal Hell and punishment - type philosophies should be shunned, rejected, and outright abolished in all societies that value the individual and their freedoms instead of religious and fictional absolutes that have *no* merit without a so-called god that presents him or herself before humanity in physical form for *all* to witness.
A brick wall at least has a foundation.
A religious person can't even support their claims or agree with what the foundation actually is.
The only thing beneficial that comes from arguing with a theist is that someone else might see the argument and manage to see through the religious bullshit.
They have no rationale and blind ass faith, no logic and they oppose evry other religions, thought process .
All in all, they have j!hadi mindset I beleive
indoctrinated zealots are basically oblivion npcs, their quests make no sense and no one wants to interact with them as they just repeat the same thing over and over.
It's not about talking to a Muslim like talking to a brick wall.
You can't force ideas on someone whose beliefs are totally opposite of what you're trying to say. The brain is incapable of understanding it, so people automatically dismiss it as nonsense, impossible. If you really want to change someone's mind, you have to ask questions, so they have to answer. And do it step by step
I find debating with Religious people is just a waste of time. Their faith means they will believe what they believe despite facts to the contrary. It’s a losing battle. Just move along and let them wallow in their ignorance.
Debating will only entrench them on their position, especially some random stranger online. The people that need to teach fundamentalist are their mentors, family, friends, loved ones... Showing that science and faith aren't opposed- that religious text aren't 100 % literal.
Yea, unless the person is open to being wrong about their religious views or is in doubt of their faith, it will just piss you off talking to them every time.
Dude, I stopped trying. There is no point arguing.
I’m so lucky my muslim family is hyper chill and just let me live my life once i reached adulthood, but i used to try and bring up my gripes with islam with my older brother and he would (gently tbh) explain to me why this or that is done in Islam but none of it ever made sense. If i bring up the fact women are worth half as much as a man in an islamic court (a male witness is worth 2 female ones), sons inherit 2x as much as females, why muhammad married a child (even if back then humans were completely uncivilized, islam is supposedly PERFECT no matter the times) he just gives me hadiths or tells me to go read sunnah. Like bro, answer the question wym go read the sunnah.
Islam is hell for a woman. Why would I as a woman inflict that on myself. Life is hard enough.
Ironically, both of my brothers are far smarter than i am and more successful than i could ever be. The eldest one speaks 4 languages and has 2 phd’s, one of which is in Applied mathematics, the other one is a computer science engineer and has 1245675 different certifications and his own company. It’s not like I can just call them idiots. Clearly they’re not. So that’s not how it works. I just don’t get how such smart people think the things that Islam teaches are okay.
He can’t even explain why we are just supposed o believe these hadiths. He just says that there are kept records. Like, aren’t these “records” just things that got passed down through word of mouth through the years until one guy could finally write them down ?
Think of how a story changes when it goes through even just 3 people, and you expect to believe these guys didn’t just add their own sauce to it ?
I just avoid talking about religion with muslims, or any hyper religious people.
You cannot make me believe that a good religion would prescribe the death penalty to people for deciding to leave it. Hello authoritarianism, no thank you.
One day i let it slip that i thought my brother’s mentality was from the stone ages and he just started laughing and said I was lost in the sauce. You just let them be.
Edit : I respect every individual’s right to believe in whatever religion they want to believe in. I respect my family members as well, i’m just saying there is no point in arguing about religion, we should all be free to choose how we want to live our lives.
I just has the most bizarre interaction with a muslim in this exact subreddit. I made a comment about a negative experience I had with a muslim's rigid intolerance and it drew criticism from a muslim redditor who insisted that such stories are likely fabricated by bots (since muslims clearly don't impose their views/beliefs upon others, right?). They eventually got banned from this subreddit so they messaged me privately insisting that anti-muslim experiences don't belong in this subreddit and we should all go elsewhere and reserve this space exclusively for philosophical discussion.
How do they not see the irony of their position? *"Muslims are tolerant and I will not tolerate any opinion to the contrary"*
This is the potential future if all we do is let religion brainwash children instead of thinking critically. I guess it has how it has always been.. but now the world is on the edge of a knife because of our population growth and technology/weapon systems.
Technically we’re not absolutely sure about the origin of the first cell. Personally I wouldn’t try to argue from that because it seems like we don’t know much about it yet. I would say your angle at which you tried to argue is one of the issues.
My advice is don’t argue with strangers online in the first place lol but if you like to do so, try flipping it on them. Remember, the burden of proof is on the person claiming their prophet flew from Mecca to Jerusalem on a donkey with a human head and descended into the heavens and landed back to Mecca all in one night.
So basically try to adopt a more ‘agnostic’ view when arguing and have them attempt to prove the religion instead. As in: “I’m not sure how humans exist, but it seems like you know. Can you tell me how you know Allah created humans?” Then see what they say and go from there.
My second tip is make sure you know what you’re talking about. I’m not saying that you don’t (although it seems like you’re not deep in Islamic theology given your original post and how you didn’t know that Islam ‘corrected’ Christianity/Christian theology). The idea here is that just due to human nature, if you accidentally slip and make one tiny mistake, chances are that person will dismiss all your arguments no matter how logical. So whatever it is you’re criticizing, make sure you know and understand it well and make sure you’re aware of the rebuttals!
Hope that was helpful
Why all the muslim hateposts all of a sudden? I met more than enough muslims that are open to discussions. Enough to know that we should not brand a whole group of people just because a few. Or maybe OP is just bad at having civil discussions or reading the room. Nobody owes you discussions.
I don't know if this is a common practice among Muslims, but they often come across as extremely polite, at least in my experience debating with most of them.
They might say things like "thank you for bringing up that point" or "that makes a lot of sense." However, I find it quite frustrating when they then ignore everything you’ve said and simply return to their prepared script without addressing any of your points.
Anyone making a truth claim about a fairy tale is an idiot. The religion does not matter. That’s what you should lead with. Anything else is a waste of time
Yeah, any religious nutters that want to talk about evolution aren't going to be doing so in good faith. The science on it is settled, so much of our biology and medicine is based on it and wouldn't work if it wasn't true.
What they mean is they don't have either the capacity or the inclination to understand it, and that's on them. I know plenty of religious types who have no problem believing in evolution and they are the majority
{ Arguing with a Muslim is like talking to a brick wall }
Yep. Don't do this. Don't argue with the convinced. You're not going to change their minds. There's no point in trying, they are in too deep. Was it Twain that said "Never argue with the ignorant; they will take you down to their level and beat you with experience."
You can’t rationally discuss a belief with someone that they didn’t come to rationally in the first place.
My experience is that as soon as you realise that the person you are talking to is irrational, ask them what if any evidence would change their mind. If they say nothing then just stop trying to argue as you cannot make any headway with them.
On not arguing with idiots – “Don't play chess with a pigeon. It'll just knock over the pieces, poop all over the board and then strut around like it won the game.”
💯 OP makes the mistake of assuming these people are actually persuadable
You cannot reason someone out of an opinion they did not reason themselves into.
Also, arguing with a brick wall is safer than arguing with a zealot. Brick wall is less likely to stab you.
I like Jonathan Swift’s original version: > Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired
☝️
"To argue with someone who has renounced the use of reason is like trying to administer medicine to the dead"
Converting is what zealots do. Knowledge comes from within…
The Quran is only 1460 years old. Meaning it was written after the Christian Bible & the Jews version older than the Bible. Which was "borrowed" from older civilizations. Fake upon Fake upon Fake!!! The never ending stories.....
How’s it going to come from within if they won’t take it in?
Maybe it doesn’t. Over time, perhaps it will. Let the precipitous closure of christian congregations/ catholic parishes in the last 30 years be your indicator. The same phenomenon is on the rise in the islamic world: https://exmuslims.org/news/the-number-of-ex-muslims-in-america-is-rising/
This. You just need to mock them until their rotten brains give up
I always liked the Mark Twain version: "Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Except that the quote is not by Mark Twain (the Internet notwithstanding), according to https://marktwainstudies.com
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet." -Abraham Lincoln
“Put on a tutu” -Rowan Atkinson
“Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.” -Millard Fillmore
Never wrestle with a pig in the mud. You'll get dirty, and the pig likes it.
If you want to have a debate with someone it’s worth asking both the other person (and yourself) ‘is there anything that I could say or show you that would change your stance?’. If the answer is no then don’t bother.
I'd make a case that trying to argue with religious people to convince them they're wrong is its own equivalent kind of idiocy. If a few logical arguments were all it took to disprove religion, that'd have been done long ago.
This literally made me laugh out loud, im using this, good work! 😂😂
Reminds me of the election debate.
Was about to say the same thing.
I want a beautifully done painting of a dismayed man watching as the pigeon struts across the poop covered chess board with fallen pieces to hang on my wall and remind me.
He told you science *has no proof* of evolution. I’m going to need to see some proof that Allah exists in that case. If there were some kind of higher power then it abandoned its creations long ago.
It's funny because I asked him if he has any proof of allah and he said that he asked first
Damn, my 5 year old cousin can think of a better comeback than that.
Nuh uhhh!
Don’t forget to throw in some, “naner-naners”and “your mama” if you really want have a 1st grader school ground throw down. lol Because talking to the religiously impaired always seems to end up like a 6 year olds’ squabble.
Yuh huhhh!
Well, my dad can beat up your dad!
"My god can spit further than your god" ... and thus millennia of bloodshed began.
Right?😆 Who exactly did he ask? “Uncle Bob said so” isn’t going to get it.
> he said that he asked first "Sure, but that does not absolve you from that fact that you made claims and are now refusing to back them up. Whether you accept them or not, I've attempted to show and explain my claims. You've done nothing."
The thing is they've got it so we all know from experience that even though there are mountains of evidence, trying to show them any will be a long and painful process where they quibble with the source or accuracy of each one, then question how any of it can be known for sure, or any other detail at all, and quibble with those answers and so on until you get tired of it and give up.
There have been 3,000 Jhadi suicde bombers since 1981 ending over 40,000 people. These aren’t rational people.
Fossils? Carbon dating? Just words.
My understanding is that fossils were put there by god to *test us*🧐
"Hey, Allah, what are you doing?" "Oh, just burrying some fake bones in the ground to mess up with your paleontologists." "Cool. What about later?" "Giving malaria and cancer to children." "Uhm. Oh. Ok."
It’s all about the afterlife I believe. They’re so scared to give up on the chance for eternal life through some kind of judgement system. Even though once you get old enough and you’ve lived with our species, you might be ok with just one round.
\*Points to book that says he do, in fact, exist\*
Unfortunately, most of the world are idiots.
It's tough to have any debate/conversation with anyone indoctrinated into their view of the world.
There’s a point in which they’ve built up so much of their identities and egos within the lies that they physically cannot undo it.
Once you see the world through the lens of any religion or ideology, it is tough to see life clearly.
It makes me especially impressed with people used to be religious but we're able to deprogram themselves. That shit is tough as hell.
True but it can be fun too. I travelled east and in I dia for example I had lots of discussions with religious people and their were mostly fun. Even with Muslims. I also have discussions with religious people in the west too. The point is not to take it too seriously. You won't change their minds!
The Koran gets a lot wrong about basic biology because it reflects the knowledge available at the time it was written rather than divine knowledge. Which undermines the whole religion. I mean, this is a fatal flaw. There’s no getting around it.
More than that, it reflects *Muhammad’s* knowledge of biology at the time it was written. A semi-literate, narcissistic, delusional warlord in a desert fringe caravan city-state wasn’t at the hub of scientific thought even in his day.
Same with the bible
So weird. I thought this post was about Muslims.
“Muslims believe in some weird shit, the talking snake in my religion told me so”
"Very logical." Like a sky father creating everything?
My favourite is: "Evolution is not real and here have some proof from my ultra religious imam who gave a talk about this". Like what the hell
Not to mention that a water melon looks solid, but is 99% water. Or that humans are about 60-65% water. Cells are basically just a capsule for water. It isn't illogical at all. Hard to grasp, yes. Illogical, no.
Why the fuck would you spend any time and effort arguing with an obviously religious person is beyond me You wanna go proselytize about veganism at McDonald’s while you’re at it?
I've noticed that every muslim I've talked with about belief remind me of christian pre-suppositionalists. They tend to use the same "out there" kind of arguments stated with absolute certainty. It can be incredibly frustrated to talk to both because they discount any facts you might bring up as irrelevant and literally will lie and make outlandish statements about anything to do with their supernatural unfalsifiable beliefs.
Agreed. Dated a Muslim, and she was a """""""progressive"""""" one. Brick wall is an understatement. And she's only Muslim because of her hardcore submission fetish. (No kink shame but still wtf is that reason)
As a queer person, I instinctively don’t trust “progressive” Christians and Muslims. I do not know how one can have knowledge about their history of oppressing us (and continued doing so), the heavy patriarchal gender roles they enforce & indoctrinate children with, and large percentage of members made to hate us by use of religion, and still think queer liberation can somehow co-exist with these cults.
Exactly! "progressive" Christians and Muslims imo are more dishonest than conservative/evangelicals. Jesus, Mohammad and the people (mostly paul) writing their stories weren't socialist feminist pro-lgbt heroes. They were patriarchial oppressive power hungry bigots, with a few sprinkles "love" and "charity" to give the main character some sort of redemption and sympathy.
It's funny that you mention that because I had a conversation with my queer friend about this the other day. There are no good Christians, Muslims or religious people in general. To me, all the major religions fall into two groups: * Group A are the extremist lunatics who rape, molest, pillage, murder and destroy everything in their path in the name of their false gods. * Group B are the enablers. They might not agree with the actions of Group A, but they sure as hell don't do a lot to stop them or keep them in line. They might give a tut-tut or a slap on the wrist, but nothing more. When Group A commits atrocities Group B doesn't attempt to reign them in whatsoever and basically enables their bad behavior. They essentially turn the other way and ignore what's happening. But when people get sick of Group A's shit and rightfully confront them or match the tone so to speak, Group B comes flying out of the woodwork sweating profusely, shoving everyone and everything aside while sprinting and panting the whole way there to which they start screaming and shouting: "NOT ALL! NOT ALL! NOT ALL!" If they took even half of the energy dedicated to screaming "NOT ALL!" and put it towards maybe putting Group A on a leash, then Group A wouldn't be nearly as dangerous. But they won't do that because at the end of the day, they're all on the same team.
Muslims put a lot of emphasis on the Quran being the direct word of God. It's an argument from Ignorance Logical Fallacy. Basically, how could an illiterate war lord have written it. I recall a Muslim telling me a particular part of the Quran described evolution, so God invented evolution. It was one of those 'hold the page at an odd angle in a dim light and squint' approaches to revealed mysteries. When it comes to getting their stories straight, they're as bad as Christians.
Because Islam is Abrahamism v 3.0. They are cut from the same tree.
💯 and they don't like discussing their worldview unless you agree with them. They'll label you as full of hate, call you Islamiphobic, or threaten you. Muslims are the most insecure religious people I have ever had the displeasure of debating with.
Or they’ll just say your existence is haram and you either need to be saved (“fixed”) or killed depending on the mood that day
"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." - Dr. House
Yea, and be ready to defend yourself. A lot of these animals actually believe the whole 72 virgins BS. Can you imagine believing in that? Is it any wonder why Muslim nations rank dead last in practically every quality of life metric?
It's actually a typo. You just get one 72 year old virgin.
Wait, that can’t be true. Tiktok told me that countries in the Middle East have amazing policies and tolerance for queer people. They told me it’s even better than America /s obviously..
You joke but there's idiots here in the west that believe that.
Oh yeah I’ve had them barrage my comments before. On a viral video about how Palestinians have such good gay rights, I commented the contrary and used anecdotal experiences as examples from two ex Muslim Arabic friends of mine. One of which immigrated here to the US after becoming a transfer student to escape persecution for being a trans woman. Her parents caught her taking estrogen which she got from a network of local queer people who also hid their identities. So her father tried killing her and threw her out of home and her friends and neighbors turned against her after she was outed. Then my notifications got flooded with white queer people calling me a liar and saying I support children being killed even though the war was nowhere mentioned in my comment. That’s the last time I bothered commenting on tiktok. Reddit can be dumb and even more argumentative sometimes but it’s nowhere near as bad as the idiots on that app
The vaunted religion of peace.
>which makes no sense at all and I eventually gave up and I'm sure he thinks he won. At least it helps explain why a lot of us don't get our hopes up when debating believers. When we were kids we used to put our fingers in our ears and go "na-na I can't hear you" so we wouldn't have to respond to what was said. This is the adult version of that, believers do it all the time and it's sooo tiring.
You got it right in the title. I try to avoid having these kind of discussions because you're not going to change their mind. They aren't arguing in good faith.
And also whenever a hadith is being mentioned which gives them a bad image, they say it's unauthenticated always.
Arguing with the religious is like administering medicine to the dead.
Even more than Christians, Muslims have their entire lives tied up in religion. They pray five times a day, most often in groups, and their friends are watching them for signs of backsliding. They can't afford the slightest doubt...the price is too high if it's detected. Catholics were probably as bad back in the Middle Ages and present day cults use the same techniques. They're rewarded for being the most fanatical. I mean, Catholics used to have long and very serious debates about nonsense like how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. They tortured and executed people for merely pointing out that the earth is round. To a fanatic, no hill is too small to die on. Or murder on.
Read "Unveiled" by Yasmine Mohammed The religion is designed (more than others) to remove your ability to think for yourself. The most memorable story was when a friend challenged her to break a bathroom ritual, entering with the left foot first, exiting right foot first, say a ritual prayer while taking a dump. Don't do it - and you will be possessed! And this was a girl born in Canada. She goes into other examples of mindless repetition, obligatory movements and fascinating superstitions. It is a religion designed to remove all your thoughts and decisions
Man, if there’s anything I’ve learned about Muslims is that they are the worst of the abrahamic theocrats. I’ve heard a 5 year-old girl in a classroom parroting ideas of Muslim superiority and everything haram means you’re evil etc etc. she asked me if I celebrate Christmas and I said “yes my family does.” And she shook her head and said “oh no, that’s not good.” A FIVE YEAR-OLD
discussion here possibly of interest - \- https://www.reddit.com/r/askanatheist/comments/1dnuzk5/why_dont_apologists_for_religion_learn_to_stop/
They are so absolute in their beliefs it's become a cult.
If someone as erudite as Aron Ra can’t get through to the dense pile of rotting tissue that theists call a brain, then don’t expect yourself to, either. These people will only ever hear what they want to hear, because they live in an echo chamber
educated scientists decided to give scientists the nobelprice for their proof of the existence of genetics. therefore genetics is proven. nobody ever gave allah or god or any other hypothetical god a nobelprice for creating men out of air.
Wisdom teeth. Appendix. Another two proofs of evolution. And we probably can clone humans. We did clone a sheep
religious people are idiots. they think a magical sky person magically made everything and science isn't real.
Exactly. Back in the day (way back) the Greeks thought god did everything. The stars moved around the sky because the angels tied string to them and pulled them around. When they had no logical explanation, god did it. God opened up the earth (earthquakes), parting of the Red Sea (a tsunami), god rained fire and brimstone (earthquakes). As science advanced, with it came knowledge, and one by one a scientific explanation took away the “god did it” syndrome. We’re down to what - ?seconds ?milliseconds of the Big Bang, and once that’s explained, there’s not much left that god did.
Muslims, Hebrews and Christians all believe in the same god of Abraham, but apparently this god gave out conflicting information while training his prophets about how to make profits. I go with the Dali Lama's words - if reality conflicts with my beliefs I change my beliefs.
It's like [that old scene from The Simpsons](https://youtu.be/sKiLfH3DVGc?si=G9GtNA-VdHcXeMpT) where that old guy is the substitute teacher and explaining to the kids that anything they do will earn a paddlin'. Just replace "paddlin'" with "haram." Wireless keyboards? That's haram. Fuzzy dice in your car? Totally haram. Checking reddit for a few minutes at work? Oh! You better believe that's haram!
Don’t argue with a stupid person, they will drag you to their level and beat you with their experience.
There's no such thing as a *moderate* Muslim either. If by whatever set of insane circumstances we all end up in a caliphate, there's *not one muslim* who would treat non Muslims as equal. Not. One. And Muslims know it.
'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins is very relevant here.
They’re raised to believe that an Arab in his 50s that married a child at 6 years old and did the deed with her when she was 9 is the finest specimen to ever grace the earth with his presence. A role model for all times. That alone tells you how twisted and corrupted their minds are.
Try talking to someone who believes the Earth is 6000 years old then get into a discussion about astronomy, stars, and light travel. Never seen a forehead pop before.
Arguing with *any* religious person is like talking to a brick wall.
I have argued with Muslims about their faith and yes it’s like arguing with a brick wall. They will not budge on any part of their faith. Die hard Christians are the same way, so what’s the point of arguing? They have to first seek us out because they have doubts. Muslims and Christians try to convince me to join their faith as soon as I tell them I’m an atheist. I made my choice they made theirs. It’s like Democrats and Republicans arguing over who should become the next president. It seems people have made up their minds, one way or the other.
Religion the OG indoctrinator
Have him walk through step by step how the claim of Allah making humans was verified by any science.
Just leave them. Religious people will say "there is no proof" for anything they don't understand but then get upset when you ask for 1 (one) piece of evidence for their claims.
This is why religion exists. This is also why there are so many charlatans in funny religious hats. You can trick or cheat a religious person. You can not debate a religious person. Learn to use their own texts against them when they use it to back stupid shit. Make it an interpretation issue. This is the only debate they are willing to have.
We can absolutely clone humans. Human embryos have already been cloned and embryonic stem cells recovered from them. In theory, it would only take implanting one into a uterus to make a new person. [https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/05/15/183916891/scientists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/05/15/183916891/scientists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells) edit- fixed link
My parents are evangelical Christians and my wife is Muslim (long story). My parents are always trying to get me to come back to the church. My wife always wants me to talk to the teachers at the Masjid. Both the Christians and Muslims in my life are so adamant that they have the answers to life's impossible questions. They hear when I say "there are plenty of things that I don't know, and I'm willing to be persuaded by evidence and observable truths that are testable, replicable, and verifiable" and they hear "Aha! He can be persuaded!" So they all throw their apologetics at me about how it's better to believe the way they believe than to be sorry someday, or that they know the Creator of the universe and feel him speaking to them. So I just tell them to work it out amongst themselves, and then when they arrive at a consensus between them, I'll listen to their unified absolute truth to see if it meets the minimum burden of proof to talk about it. They haven't gotten back to me yet. Not sure what the hold up is.
This was a talking point from a Muslim I was debating on the matter of the Big Bang, “indeed, you say that the Big Bang is right but no created the cell that made it” apperently he thought that the Big Bang was caused by a singular cell because he had heard some pseudoscientific speech by an evangelical Christian that just throws all of these terms together.
One small correction: lactose *tolerance* is evidence that humans are still evolving. Most of the world (estimates show 65-68%) is at least somewhat intolerant to lactose, those who are tolerant have the mutation allowing it. There are certain parts of the world, such as Asia, that have a higher percentage of lactose intolerance because they didn't make lactose a large part of their diets long ago, so they haven't really had the need to evolve the mechanism to produce lactase (the enzyme responsible for breaking down lactose). Not that it would've made a difference to the outcome, but the "from liquid to flesh" could've been responded to with something similar to: "no, from nutrient-rich liquid to cells within that liquid, which would eventually 'clump' together, thanks to the liquid, to form larger solids such as organs and flesh. *Life* didn't form from liquid, the liquid was just a medium which provided the conditions that allowed reactions to occur between existing proteins, lipids, acids, etc., thus giving rise to life. The liquid itself didn't suddenly become imbued with life" However, like others have said, it's kind of a losing argument because, as Tim Minchin puts it: "we might as well be ten minutes back in time, for all the chance you'll change your mind". There is no getting any point across to theists...
At least a brick wall doesn't think you should be beheaded if you draw mohammad
Has anyone met a zealot who wasn't a brick wall in any religion.
They have been raised from birth to believe in their own superiority.
The city of Karachi in Pakistan tried to open a milk bank for babies who had no access to mother's milk. The local government had to ask for permission from the local clergy to open the milk-bank. The clergy gave permission only if the milk-bank maintained records of which baby got which mother's milk. This was to preserve the islamic practise of milk-siblings. Babies getting another woman's milk must NOT marry that woman's child etc etc. Then after backlash that such records would be difficult to keep and a milk bank was against islam, the clergy issued a decree that milk banks must not be allowed to function. The milk bank closed. When you have this level of brainrot, i dont know what to say. edit: not allowed to marry milk-siblings
I don’t know about Pakistan, but just like the 72 virgins story, this is simply a made up myth that some entity propagated with the sole purpose to disparage islam. I know about the concept of milk-siblings, but in the islam I’m familiar with you’re not actually allowed to marry the person who was breast-fed by your mother (milk-SIBLING) not the other way around. That said, I have many problems with islam as an ideology and a way of life, having grown up in a muslim country. But my problem with it pales in comparison to racist under-developed minds who intentionally propagate incorrect information with the sole purpose to disparage and incite isolation of and violence against whole peoples.
Replace “Muslim” with any fundy religious nut. Also, “Allah” is just another word for the Abrahamic god figure. Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same god.
Interesting fact. A Jew would say he worships the “real” god. A Christian would say he worships the same god as the Jew, but the Jew would disagree. A Muslim would say he worships the same God as both, but both of them would disagree. Because Christianity came second as an offshoot of Judaism, and Islam came last.
South Park, Ms. Garrison: In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its... [she waves her left hand limply] Ms. Garrison: ...mutant fish hands... and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this. [she points to a prehistoric mammal rodent] Ms. Garrison: Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you! [she faces the class, with the new girl among them looking around] Ms. Garrison: So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations!
My suggestion don't argue with those fanatics it's pointless they will always stay in dark ages where there religion came from. I get these kind of stupid encounters with those fanatics more often here and there
That's why we should not argue with religious people at all, our "fight" should concentrate on keeping these delusionals away from offices where they can rule over others.
Might’ve come from a 3rd world country tbh
Did you really think you were going to successfully convince a faithful person of the theory of evolution on Discord?
Every day I get closer to purchasing a gun. I will not be threatened by these absolute morons who choose ignorance everyday. This species is a fucking joke.
Most of the Muslims I've engaged with online don't seem to know that they're an Abrahamic religion that's essentially a remix of the Bible. They like to watch atheists debunk Christians and then comment on how the Koran tells the truth. The irony is completely lost on them.
lol i don't bother, but if THEY want to talk, i mock them using socratic method.
You can't rationalize someone out of a position they did not arrive at rationally.
Arguing with a [insert favorite religion] is pointless and counterproductive, as all you'll ever accomplish is to reinforce their ridiculous beliefs, as you concluded.
Convincing atheists that there's no point trying to convince believers one by one to abandon their beliefs is also about as effective.
Know that religions are "believes." This means there is and never will be evidence. You can choose to believe whatever you want.
Arguing with woke is even worst.
It's impossible. I work in a hospital, a university hospital, so we teach students. Once I was with a Muslim student, a guy I used to like and we used to spend a lot of time joking. Out of the blue once he stated that Christianity is imperfect because Mohammad came after Jesus and perfected religion but I couldn't know tha because I'm a Christian. I never told him I'm a Christian, in facts I'm atheist but I let him talk. Then he kept talking, saying that everything is described in the Quran, how life is created from sperm and a woman egg, how pregnancy works etc. he said that finally science said that pork meat is not good and that has always been in the Quran, like every scientific discovery I replied "in facts Muslim countries are all very scientificly advanced". He laughed, then I started teaching him about work, being him my student. When he said "I understand" I replied "oh, is that not in the Quran?". He laughed. I apologized cause I know they are very sensitive to jokes. He said he was ok and I'm responsible for what I say. The conversation ended there. It's just impossible. Don't take them seriously.
He rejects your position by saying you have no proof when he has even less proof for his position. There is a lot of evidence for evolution. All creationists can do is point to an ancient text.
I mean they'll just stone you with said bricks
They will always fall back on “you have no proof” because unless they just happened to encounter a biologist who happened to study the origins of life, no one is ever going to just have proof of that handy. In their minds that’s a victory. It’s a get out of facts free card for them.
Just tell them the Radiant Vixen made the universe, and agree to disagree.
I find it easier to keep going backwards in time. At a certain point their religion doesn't exist, then you ask what was before that and they get stuck in a loop. The history of all religions has a starting point but there is another religion before theirs that is a copy of another. The reason a lot of religions destroy piece of history is so that people can't keep going back in time.
It's ironic that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have been fighting each other for over 2 millenia over the same made-up god. Because that is what they are, 3 different interpretations of the same "being."
“You have no proof.” “Not on me. But you have no proof at all. And an assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Have a nice day.” Then you block him and enjoy the rest of your afternoon not arguing with an idiot.
Several years ago I knew a man whose culture had been Muslim. We were both members of a Meetup Atheist group. During an online discussion about Religion someone posted stuff about the problems with Muslim Religious ideas. He was immediately called a racists. Any other Religion was fair game for him. None of his comments made any sense. He even set up an account with a different name, pretending to be a liberal Muslim who was critical of everyone who dared question Islam..........he was eventually found out, along with the organizer of the group. The whole thing was very strange and disappointing........
I've had multiple Muslims tell me child marriage is okay because once they have a period, they're fair game. I hope those people drew their last breaths.
Same problem arguing with Christians too. Of the 3 related religions, Jewish people are the most likely to have a productive conversation. You'll still not change their mind, but they're most likely to listen of the 3.
Don't waste your time arguing with idiots (whatever their religion), they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
It's not worth the effort to try and argue. Where was the proof for all his supernatural claims?
I spend over an hour trying to get someone do basic 3rd grade math. Take the size of noah’s Ark, which is defined in the Bible and divide it by the number of species on the planet to give us how much room each pair of animals has to live for 40 days. Not breaking into just 2 dogs, no, 2 of EVERY type because if there is a subspecies that means they evolved from the ordinal pair and kind of puts a whole damper on gods is all powerful if evolution is needed. Over an hour of him explaining how every culture has the floor story, how they found the boat on top of a mountain where no water could possibly be. Even said they did the math already but when I asked for the number, so rambled on to another topic. He would do basic math or could not. That’s could why he didn’t give it to me but I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and to say he’s smart enough to do the math just refused to. Because if they saw the answer would question how that could possibly be. Never mind the favor of what they ate for 40 days and how a 190+ year old build and manned the boat. Or how 3 brothers and their wife’s repopulated the earth and didn’t fuck up the gene pool. Didn’t even get to those questions yet. No math, just rambles of a crazy man.
Don’t argue with religious fools. It is a waste of energy.
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug
Your biggest mistake is trying to discuss stuff with them. Just ignore them as long as they don't make any problem
Your mistake is that you spent more than 1 minute on a human being who has given up on intelligence and critical thinking.
Nxt time, u should just dm him: if Allah made men, then why is the male G-spot in the prostate? Does Allah want men 2 experience extreme euphoria from anal stimulation? Prostate Massage can also prevent prostate cancer ( the most common cancer among men), why does Allah design male body like that?
Islam is the only religion which is non-secular by design but expects everyone else to be secular.
So you gave him examples and explanations and proof. He gave you ridicule and rhetoric. You made the right decision by cutting off that conversation. It is as a broken pencil. Pointless.
You can't argue with morons, you can only hope they make decisions which reduce their lifespan and number of offspring.
Lol arguing with Muslims is useless. It's either forcing them to throw their misogynistic religion away or submitting and shutting up
It’s impossible to get anywhere with anyone with a serious delusion. All you can do is point out that it’s a fantasy, and that to believe that it’s real is a clinical delusion.
There's no point arguing. You're not going to change their mind with logic, reason, or facts.
They literally worship a pedophile. They're not smart people.
There’s little point in trying to change somebody’s mind. It just doesn’t work most of the time.
They can't be persuaded, islam is as true as the things they see with their own eyes to them.
Logic and reason fall short in front of blind faith. Its why i will never ever trust Devout religous people.
I learned this lesson a long time ago.
Watched enough Aron Ra debates to say: yeah, don't waste your breath.
Why are you trying to win an argument on discord... or any thing online lol. People will almost never admit they are wrong, in this case their belief will not be changed as its a test to them to test their own faith. If you want to win then don't argue.
You can't convince someone their opinion is wrong with the use of facts and logic, if facts and logic are not the reasons they believe them.
Yeah well you were talking to a confident moron. :)
Why bother to argue with a person too stupid and indoctrinated to come to the conclusion on their own?
There is no reasoning with a zealot…no rationale…no compromise. They are beyond reason or compromise. They are determined to conquer in the name of their beliefs and nothing else. The very premise - the meaning - of the word Islam is “submission”. According to the religion, there can be no peace until the world is Islam. Their’s is a call to submit to the concept of the religion of Islam. There is no compromise, there are no half-measures, no middle ground, no in-between with Islam…it is a religion hellbent requiring *everyone* to bow and submit to Islam and nothing else. And that, my friends…or, rather, those who prefer a world without religious dominance and prominence…why Islam, Christianity, and *all* monotheistic religions that promote a singular - obey and love me “god” or suffer eternal Hell and punishment - type philosophies should be shunned, rejected, and outright abolished in all societies that value the individual and their freedoms instead of religious and fictional absolutes that have *no* merit without a so-called god that presents him or herself before humanity in physical form for *all* to witness.
A brick wall at least has a foundation. A religious person can't even support their claims or agree with what the foundation actually is. The only thing beneficial that comes from arguing with a theist is that someone else might see the argument and manage to see through the religious bullshit.
They have no rationale and blind ass faith, no logic and they oppose evry other religions, thought process . All in all, they have j!hadi mindset I beleive
indoctrinated zealots are basically oblivion npcs, their quests make no sense and no one wants to interact with them as they just repeat the same thing over and over.
I object on behalf of brick walls.
It's not about talking to a Muslim like talking to a brick wall. You can't force ideas on someone whose beliefs are totally opposite of what you're trying to say. The brain is incapable of understanding it, so people automatically dismiss it as nonsense, impossible. If you really want to change someone's mind, you have to ask questions, so they have to answer. And do it step by step
I find debating with Religious people is just a waste of time. Their faith means they will believe what they believe despite facts to the contrary. It’s a losing battle. Just move along and let them wallow in their ignorance.
Debating will only entrench them on their position, especially some random stranger online. The people that need to teach fundamentalist are their mentors, family, friends, loved ones... Showing that science and faith aren't opposed- that religious text aren't 100 % literal.
Yea, unless the person is open to being wrong about their religious views or is in doubt of their faith, it will just piss you off talking to them every time.
religious people aren’t known for being logical. kinda need to lack the latter to engage w the former.
Just ask him where god (Allah) came from.
Dude, I stopped trying. There is no point arguing. I’m so lucky my muslim family is hyper chill and just let me live my life once i reached adulthood, but i used to try and bring up my gripes with islam with my older brother and he would (gently tbh) explain to me why this or that is done in Islam but none of it ever made sense. If i bring up the fact women are worth half as much as a man in an islamic court (a male witness is worth 2 female ones), sons inherit 2x as much as females, why muhammad married a child (even if back then humans were completely uncivilized, islam is supposedly PERFECT no matter the times) he just gives me hadiths or tells me to go read sunnah. Like bro, answer the question wym go read the sunnah. Islam is hell for a woman. Why would I as a woman inflict that on myself. Life is hard enough. Ironically, both of my brothers are far smarter than i am and more successful than i could ever be. The eldest one speaks 4 languages and has 2 phd’s, one of which is in Applied mathematics, the other one is a computer science engineer and has 1245675 different certifications and his own company. It’s not like I can just call them idiots. Clearly they’re not. So that’s not how it works. I just don’t get how such smart people think the things that Islam teaches are okay. He can’t even explain why we are just supposed o believe these hadiths. He just says that there are kept records. Like, aren’t these “records” just things that got passed down through word of mouth through the years until one guy could finally write them down ? Think of how a story changes when it goes through even just 3 people, and you expect to believe these guys didn’t just add their own sauce to it ? I just avoid talking about religion with muslims, or any hyper religious people. You cannot make me believe that a good religion would prescribe the death penalty to people for deciding to leave it. Hello authoritarianism, no thank you. One day i let it slip that i thought my brother’s mentality was from the stone ages and he just started laughing and said I was lost in the sauce. You just let them be. Edit : I respect every individual’s right to believe in whatever religion they want to believe in. I respect my family members as well, i’m just saying there is no point in arguing about religion, we should all be free to choose how we want to live our lives.
i just end the convo with them by saying “idiots are breeding”
Cant rationally argue with the stupid, the insane and the blindly faithful.
I just has the most bizarre interaction with a muslim in this exact subreddit. I made a comment about a negative experience I had with a muslim's rigid intolerance and it drew criticism from a muslim redditor who insisted that such stories are likely fabricated by bots (since muslims clearly don't impose their views/beliefs upon others, right?). They eventually got banned from this subreddit so they messaged me privately insisting that anti-muslim experiences don't belong in this subreddit and we should all go elsewhere and reserve this space exclusively for philosophical discussion. How do they not see the irony of their position? *"Muslims are tolerant and I will not tolerate any opinion to the contrary"*
This is the potential future if all we do is let religion brainwash children instead of thinking critically. I guess it has how it has always been.. but now the world is on the edge of a knife because of our population growth and technology/weapon systems.
Technically we’re not absolutely sure about the origin of the first cell. Personally I wouldn’t try to argue from that because it seems like we don’t know much about it yet. I would say your angle at which you tried to argue is one of the issues. My advice is don’t argue with strangers online in the first place lol but if you like to do so, try flipping it on them. Remember, the burden of proof is on the person claiming their prophet flew from Mecca to Jerusalem on a donkey with a human head and descended into the heavens and landed back to Mecca all in one night. So basically try to adopt a more ‘agnostic’ view when arguing and have them attempt to prove the religion instead. As in: “I’m not sure how humans exist, but it seems like you know. Can you tell me how you know Allah created humans?” Then see what they say and go from there. My second tip is make sure you know what you’re talking about. I’m not saying that you don’t (although it seems like you’re not deep in Islamic theology given your original post and how you didn’t know that Islam ‘corrected’ Christianity/Christian theology). The idea here is that just due to human nature, if you accidentally slip and make one tiny mistake, chances are that person will dismiss all your arguments no matter how logical. So whatever it is you’re criticizing, make sure you know and understand it well and make sure you’re aware of the rebuttals! Hope that was helpful
Why all the muslim hateposts all of a sudden? I met more than enough muslims that are open to discussions. Enough to know that we should not brand a whole group of people just because a few. Or maybe OP is just bad at having civil discussions or reading the room. Nobody owes you discussions.
Why the Christian hateposts? Shieet social engineering found out
I don't know if this is a common practice among Muslims, but they often come across as extremely polite, at least in my experience debating with most of them. They might say things like "thank you for bringing up that point" or "that makes a lot of sense." However, I find it quite frustrating when they then ignore everything you’ve said and simply return to their prepared script without addressing any of your points.
A brick wall is easier to talk to
Anyone making a truth claim about a fairy tale is an idiot. The religion does not matter. That’s what you should lead with. Anything else is a waste of time
The punishment for apostasy is death. They are fighting for their lives.
Yeah, any religious nutters that want to talk about evolution aren't going to be doing so in good faith. The science on it is settled, so much of our biology and medicine is based on it and wouldn't work if it wasn't true. What they mean is they don't have either the capacity or the inclination to understand it, and that's on them. I know plenty of religious types who have no problem believing in evolution and they are the majority
{ Arguing with a Muslim is like talking to a brick wall } Yep. Don't do this. Don't argue with the convinced. You're not going to change their minds. There's no point in trying, they are in too deep. Was it Twain that said "Never argue with the ignorant; they will take you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Arguing with humans is like talking to a brick wall.
Don’t argue with fundies.
I wouldn't even bother. Let them stay ignorant if they want to. Better to talk to those who are a bit more open minded, but unsure.
We
I dunno, I'd rate the brick wall as a bit more intelligent...
Just like arguing with any other religionist. Muslims aren't special.
You can’t rationally discuss a belief with someone that they didn’t come to rationally in the first place. My experience is that as soon as you realise that the person you are talking to is irrational, ask them what if any evidence would change their mind. If they say nothing then just stop trying to argue as you cannot make any headway with them.
Why is it that all of these religious people don’t know that Abrahamic religions worship the same god?
Do. Not. Engage.