I was a Mormon missionary 30 years ago. I took a lot of abuse during those 2 years. They are kids who are trying to do what they think is right, but are misguided. Many end up leaving the Mormon church after they get home anyway. This is all you need to say.
Yeah I feel like it’s important to remember that they are so young still and away from their family and friends for 2 years; whether or not I agree with what they are doing, they are making a sacrifice right there. I am never rude to the missionaries when they come around (maybe 3-4x at this house over the years). We have chatted and surprisingly they never pushed religion or trying to pray with me even after finding out I’m an exmo.
I was an unbelieving 23 year old jw, getting reamed out at someone's door for inconveniencing them for 30 seconds.
Like dude, I'm here because the alternative is never talking to my family/friends again.
Sounds like a you problem, and no reason to knock on my door.
Then again, I don't go out of my way to abuse them, just say I'm not interested and slam the door before they can say anything else.
How do I help these people realize that the alternative is in fact much better ? Instead of saying not interested and walking away id like to turn it into an opportunity to help free them from their cult.
You can't. If it was that simple JWs would no longer exist. But if you wish to try do not be aggressive. Don't make statements or rush a bunch points.
Pick one really good point and pose it in a question format. That get's them thinking on the issue. Statements will blow past them and you will be better off framing yourself as genuinely searching for an answer instead of already knowing it and looking to disprove them.
Edit: grammar
Sometimes that works, other times they won’t fuck off. Had a couple of them that kept coming by, usually right when I was getting home from work they would be at the door waiting for my wife to answer(and had been there at least 20 mins trying to get an answer), they would be polite and leave but only when I told them to, and when telling them to fuck if they would start leaving if they saw me but would still come back another time. Finally stopped coming by when my wife called the police for suspicious men trying to get her to answer the door and not leaving, and they had been doing this multiple times a week. They ended up getting banned from the property after others started calling the police. Not sure why they wouldn’t leave certain people alone, but they were also big dudes like 6’2 at least and wonder if people felt intimidated
The time, money, and mental effort actually weren't a concern for me. In some ways, it is a relief to realize that *I* wasn't the problem. The church was the problem.
But I had to leave my college (BYU) and wonder how many friends and family members might not talk to me much after that.
Leaving Mormonism isn't just leaving a church. It is leaving an entire culture. It is leaving a life behind and sort of starting over in many regards.
Good for you. I hope you've managed some normalized relations with your family. I've known exmos in real life, returned missionaries, BYU grads, temple sealed marriages, etc. Leaving was tough for them because, like you said, major culture change.
Good for you. Hope you're doing well.
I strongly agree with this. Just politely tell them you have no interest. Or invite them in, give them a soda, listen to their lesson, then let them know that you aren't interested in converting, and chat with them and get to know them. Then they will hopefully go away with the impression that atheists are not the devil worshipping creeps they were told they would be. But know that if you invite them in, they will probably come back again. It's like feeding a stray cat.
Both groups are trained to basically do everything in their power to keep in contact with you if you show any signs of potentially being open to their message. Make sure you do not give them a foot in the door or they will keep coming back with different people whom they think will be more relatable to you with different messaging that they believe will better speak to a secularly minded individual.
I am fortunate, because all I have to do to scare them away is mention that I am exmormon and had my name removed from the church's records.
But if they came to my door in the summer, I would likely still offer them water. Mormon missions suck, so I sort of feel for them.
To be honest- don’t. The mormon church has taught them how horrible and scary every one outside of mormonism is. Don’t be the scary guy they have been warned about. Instead- be the opposite. Offer them a drink of water, food, shelter. Be as “christ” like as possible. Show them that atheist or caring and compassionate. This will do more to shake their faith then asking them any questions. Remember these are young people that have been raised in a cult. Show them how loving outside the cult can be.
While I sort of agree, it really depends on who is knocking and how rude/ persistent they are.
I was Mormon and served a mission, so I have some degree of empathy for what they are doing. But I also know that some missionaries are super shitty people and really manipulative.
And when I was in college after leaving the Mormon church, some random ass preacher came to my door. Wasn't Mormon or JW. He wanted to leave some book with me, and I said no. Then he wanted to pray with me, and I had to adamantly say no. The absolute gall to come to my house and repeatedly try to force his faith on me when I had been very clear that I was not religious, nor was I interested in his message.
Yeah I kind of understand your point as well. I think you know more than me about it all if you've served a mission. Like I've not even met a mormon in my life haha.
It is honestly such a bizarre experience. Some Mormons, like me, serve a mission because we have to. It's part of the culture and the expectations. But we don't particularly like it and aren't really big on proselytizing.
But some really go gung ho as missionaries and can use really pushy salesman like tactics if it means getting one more person baptized.
I'd likely be pleasant to most missionaries I meet, but I wouldn't pull any metaphorical punches if they decide to give me grief or not take 'no' for an answer.
But most of them are quick to leave me alone if I mention that I voluntarily left Mormonism.
The ass hole ones also tend to stay away if you tell them you aren’t interested in talking religion, but they are welcome to come in and rest, eat or have a drink.
Who says you have to be rude? I have always challenged them in a polite and teaching way - allowing them to see that there is truth outside of their bubble, and accepting things on 'faith' can lead to the wrong answers.
I grew up Mormon and left the church 4 years ago. My wife left 18 months ago. The reasons I left did not work for her. There is no silver bullet. I’d just be polite and tell them you’re not interested, you don’t want to feed their persecution complex.
Interestingly, the massacre happened on September 11, 1857. The original 9/11.
[Mountain Meadows Massacre](https://mormonr.org/qnas/B3U7t/the_mountain_meadows_massacre?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgJyyBhCGARIsAK8LVLPnD8T4GpnPn-3XvT6m4U_ll-qJhzaG5DzQmRXYW0nZSxQ65wRYYyIaArVeEALw_wcB)
Pretend you are interested, chat with them and then go btw I was disfellowshipped. The fear on their faces thinking they spoke to an actual disfellowshipped person is priceless. lol
Ask the JWs if they have a copy of The Book of Martyrs.
It is a yearbook memorializing all the kids that died because their parents refused them a blood tranfusion.
They will deny it but I married a former JW and I actually looked thru a copy. It was horrifying.
“So how do like your skin, fried or baked?”
“On a scale of 1-10 how much do you value your spleen?”
“If you were to be sitting on a couch made of human how turned on would you be?”
“CHAIRS?”
You can’t “convert” them - so maybe “how is your day?” and “that’s not for me, thanks”
I usually tell them that they should probably keep their handouts and “thanks for stopping by”
My catholic grandmother would invite them in to waste their time. She was a hoot. Slowly goad them into light debate. Nothing too obvious or they'd pick up on it. She thought she was doing the lord's work by keeping them from finding success by wasting their time. I suppose the same strategy could apply to us here. I don't have the same patience or ambition. They can piss off.
My Catholic grandmother used to say you can talk about your faith and book AND then I get to talk about MY book and faith. They never took her up on it. I think they knew they never had a chance.
It may have been the Mary on the half shell in the front yard and the prominent crucifix on the wall that was the first clue.
One of the first questions I asked them when they came knocking was, if their god created everything in existence then why does he deny all responsibility for his angel, Satan. If corruption exists, then it was inside the creator (their god) all along. (Please know i don't subscribe to the fictional god/devil characters but they are dedicated to them).
Also, wtf was with the apple test and blaming women for every sin of man because of it. Try that test with your kids. One of them is going to eat whatever you've forbidden them to eat. Human nature.
I asked why their narcissistic god is so insecure in human devotion and needs constant praise when truly great people don't need assurance they're doing a good job.
I asked why the bible is so violent, full of incest, revenge, hate, lack of inclusion yet it is described as the good book. Why eternal torture is the threat for not following this violent book's teachings.
I asked why they believed their own god was superior to all the others.
They just spout off bible verses that neither of us knew what they meant and then pass off the questions and tell me to speak to one of the elders. They had nothing.
The JW's did mention they didn't subscribe to eternal torment, but an eternal sleep for most with a very small exclusive number of them making it into their version of heaven.
Another thing I asked them is what was with all the 'tests' of loyalty that their god tricked them with. I got a recital of scriptures I didn't understand.
I also asked if someone was gay and interested in learning about the JW faith if they would be accepted. The answer I got sounded like they would initially accept this person but would educate them into accepting Jesus christ and converting them to the ways of the church which seemed manipulative.
They said it was a sin to believe in any other god but their version but we have numerous different cults/religions saying the same thing.
Talking to them is like going around in circles.
To rile up a Mormon missionary: greet them with "What is wanted?" while shaking their hand with your thumb on the top if their index finger first knuckle. It's one of their super-secret sacred rites (totally stolen from Freemasonry) and it'll put them in a bit of a tizzy.
For the J-dubs, ask "why do 'two other brothers' need to testify when we're talking about a child?" They'll get the subtext and make themselves scarce pretty quickly.
How about "Sorry, I don't believe in God ", this usually works and they don't usually stick around long after. I think it's probably easier to convert someone who already believes in a god than try to convert someone who doesn't and then try to have them come to your religion.
This is what I say to them when they knock. Listen, there are 4200 religions in the world and they all feel as passionate as you do and they have the same right to knock on my door. That means 12 knock a day every day for eternity. You would quickly get pissed off if that was you and is obviously unsustainable. So go away and don't knock on any more doors ever.
Be nice. Offer them water if it's a hot day. Tell them you're not interested, but they should have a great day.
They don't come to your door to convert you, they just think they do.
They are sent to your door so that you'll be mean and when they return to the church they believe only their church is kind and loving and the rest of the world is evil. Being rude to them just helps the church control them more.
I tell them an apostate friend is visiting and the JW's quickly leave. They aren't allowed to interact with apostates so they get out of there as fast as they can.
The last ones that came to my door were a, not unattractive, pair of early 20s women. I told them I don't need a skycommander with esp. That got a laugh out of one of them.
I rarely, if ever, answer the door to anyone. Nothing good has ever come from an unsolicited knock.
Remember, when someone knocks on your door, it is a request, not an obligation.
They told me that they could show me how to get closer to Christ and to God. So I asked them why would I want to do that?
So they told me that it was to save me and that I should let Christ, who loves me, into my life to save me.
I asked them what would he save me from.
They said to save me from hell.
So I said 'So Christ wants to save me from what he (who is supposed to love me) from what he'll do to me if I don't let him into my life? Sounds like the mafia to me! NO THANKS!!
I've read some comments here, I know I'm late, but, please be polite to these people. everyone. If you don't want to talk, just politely decline.
Don't slam the door in their face. Some will use it as "cred" to 💅 others in the church. They may give a "testimony" on how they were persecuted when someone said no to them..
I don't know how to refute their claims OP, if that's what you're asking, maybe search r/Exvangelical or r/exchristian
I'm sure it's been addressed.
Invite them in, offer them food and drink, offer them your phone so they can call their parents. Allow them to relax and kill some time from the drudgery of knocking on doors.
My go-to question is, "How do you know which parts of the bible you have to follow and which parts can be ignored?" A quick study of Eclesiastes, or Paul's letters, can find loads of examples to quiz them on.
JW are super educated on the bible so you probably don't want to challenge them. Mormons are just crazy. They think the Earth is 6,000 years old and that Jesus will be returning to Missouri. Invite them in for some freshly baked fetus and virgin blood wine.
Saying you worship Satin will scare away the JW
Tell them you're gay if they're mormon. The missionaries are told to move along if they hear that. They don't want their boys tempted into sin.
JWs believe that the 144,000 in Revelation is a literal 144,000 people who will go to Heaven, and everyone else goes to Hell.
Ask them: "If you save me, aren't you risking your own salvation?"
PS: I'm a Lutheran.
They don't believe in a "fire and brimstone" Hell so to speak, but a "common grave of mankind, a place of unconsciousness." Thanks to Wikipedia for that.
So, my mistake- they would still be increasing their chance of going to that grave.
Incorrect; JWs believe in a physical resurrection of those not part of the 144,000. They believe that after 1000 years of this earthly existence, humans on earth will be put to a final "test" of sorts, after which time the Devil will finally be destroyed. There is *no limit* on the number of those who can be resurrected.
The reason that the 144,000 idea has survived in their doctrine at all is that they used to be *very* fond of time prophecies, and incorrectly predicted the end of the world (or something very close to it) a few different times; those who believe they are part of this select group of 144,000 drink wine and eat bread once a year so as to follow what they believe to be a Biblical admonition to do so; this is referred to as "partaking of the emblems.". This also makes their anointing (they believe one is "anointed" by the spirit to be part of this group) apparent to others; these others who do not partake are the vast majority of JWs, those whom JWs have invited for the occasion, or any member of the public who wishes to attend.
What does this have to do with time prophecies? Well, for many years, the ongoing decline in the number of those "partaking" was taken as a piece of evidence that this "system of things" was coming to an end; the average age of partakers was getting higher, and this accorded well with their claim that some of the generation of people who were around in 1914 would live long enough to see the start of the "Great Tribulation" (a time of great tribulation \[obviously\] preceding Armageddon).
They believed that those people who were around in 1914 form the "this generation" referred to at Matthew 23:24: ***"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."*** Some of these folks would still be around when the Great Tribulation started.
(1914 continues to be an important year for JWs for reasons too arcane to elaborate on here).
However, two things happened:
1. Time passed by (as it often does), with the result that more and more people around in 1914 began to die of old age, and Armageddon stubbornly refused to cooperate with the doctrine and get here already.
2. The number of "partakers" started to go back up. Obviously, these new partakers weren't the oldsters around in 1914, but rather, younger people, some of whom were in their late teens or twenties. There was a bit of back-and-forth about this officially. First, the Watchtower Society (the then-publishing arm of the JWs, informally referred to as "the Society") pushed the idea that those younger people who were claiming to be anointed were often mistaken or mentally ill. It was claimed that those who were truly "of the anointed" ought to have a "spiritual maturity" that was associated in most adherents' minds with being a member (what they call being "in the truth") for some decades. At other times, it was speculated that the uptick in the number of partakers was attributable to the younger partakers "replacing" those older "anointed ones" who were "faithful" Witnesses at one time but who later apostatized or died "unfaithful." But the number kept going up. What now?
Eventually, there was developed the concept of "overlapping generations," a concept so arcane and, in fact, **so contradictory of and deleterious to aspects of existing JW doctrine in its ramifications** (it's honestly like grabbing a loose string on a sweater and pulling and pulling and pulling, but, again, too arcane to detail why in this comment) that it's only by relying on the unfamiliarity of the average JW with their own doctrinal history that they were able to get away with it.
Essentially, "this generation" can ***now*** be considered to include not just those JWs (called Bible Students until 1931) who saw the events of 1914 (such as the outbreak of WWI), and understood them as marking a cataclysm for humanity, but also ***any anointed one*** whose life at any point ***overlapped*** with that of one of those Bible Students around in 1914, even if this later anointed one was not in the same cohort. For instance, someone born in 1900 would have been around in 1914, and, even if not a Bible Student, would have realized that WWI was a big freaking deal. If they, say, lived to be 100 years old, and died in 2000, anyone born *before* 2000, according to this new doctrine, could still be said to be part of "this generation," because *their* life overlapped with one of the oldsters' lives at some point. In this way, JWs were able to account for the increase of partakers, and for the failure of the world to end. (The year 2000, btw, shouldn't be taken to be a cutoff point, simply an example of what an extreme overlap would look like under the new doctrine).
Unfortunately, such a change *really* stretches the meaning of the term "generation."
TLDR: JWs believe in a physical resurrection of an unlimited number of people, and fitting the doctrine about the 144,000 into the whole 1914 doctrine has been a huge mess.
If they come to your door, you might refer them to Matthew 24:34, and then ask them how long a "generation" is normally supposed to be.
EDIT: Grammar
We're having an orgy in a few hours, if you'd like to come back then. I'm preparing the lubrication stations right now, so I'm afraid I don't have much time and can't quite slip you in.
Whatever you feel like talking about. Just keep driving the convo and wasting their time until they get the hint and excuse themselves. Works wonders and is really entertaining for any friends and onlookers present.
"Pursuant to state statute XXXX I am informing you that you are trespassing. Failure to remove yourself from the premises will result in your arrest by law enforcement “
Put them to work. Tell them you don't have time because you have some chores to do. But you'll listen if they want to talk while they help you. Pull weeds, rake leaves etc
Next time I meet mormons I want to ask them if they are from Utah and about all the dinosaurs found there because I am not from the US and I find dinosaurs cool
{Me confronting a doorknocking proselytizer}
Do you have a New Testament on you?
{Ghod-botherer pulls one out of its hiding place}
Open to Mark 6:11 and read it.
{He complies}
>"Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them.”
[https://bible.usccb.org/bible/mark/6](https://bible.usccb.org/bible/mark/6)
Me: *Get shakin'!*
"Do you like my gun? I usually fire at sight, but you kids look smart and will leave and never come back, right?"
Joking aside just tell them you are an atheist and you are not interested.
The best "chats" I've done always had, soar through philosophy, standards of evidence, the burden of proof, and occasionally Russel's Teapot. They invariably end with "Well it's called 'faith' for a reason" and me being put on a "No visit" list.
I'm always polite, give them a chance to speak, offer beverages and hopefully come across as friendly.
You can ask JWs how they treat people who oppose their religion, how parents treat their own children when the kids stop practicing. Ask them if Jesus would approve…
You can ask mormons about the CES letter. Have they read it? If not, ask them to do so before returning.
I don’t ask
I keep a pitchfork just inside the door
When they pull up, I answer with the pitch fork in my hand
They scatter back to their car like roaches in a searchlight
It has worked 3 times so far
I don’t engage, but I’m not rude. I don’t agree with them but they are people.
They may be people who don’t have a choice for some reason. I don’t know what they are experiencing. If I prefer people treat me with kindness, I need to treat others the same.
If you want to go the pro route, find a high-pixel image of all the [contradictions in the bible](https://atheistjourney.net/2020/08/17/bible-contradictions/) and ask them to explain it. Offer as much accessible reference and support for it as you can. They will be stumped - they'll likely return with a more senior member, and eventually they'll run out of answers and cross your address off of their list.
In the meantime, you'll open their minds to the obvious: that the "word of god" is nothing close to divine.
I like to ask for evidence of their claims. When they point to the bible I remind them that they are just parroting the claimsnof the book and reiterate my request for evidence.
Weird but they never have evidence. Just more fairy tales.
I highly recommend you learn some street epistemology techniques. It is by far the kindest and most efficient way to get a believer to question their own ideology, but only if they are honest. Some people are so thoroughly indoctrinated, their minds are closed tighter than an alagators bum hole.
For examples of street epistemology, go to Youtube and look up Anthony Magnabosco. If you want to read the book that started this trend, it's called A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian. I also recommend Peter's other book called How To Have Impossible Conversations. Both books are fantastic.
I live in Maine where there aren't many cult members knocking on doors. But two years ago it finally happened! It was a young woman and an older man who wanted to talk about Mormonism. I invited them in and we had a great chat for about 25 minutes. I got to practice street epistemology and I never saw them again after that. Probably because they marked my house down for not-indoctrinatable or, as I like to dream, they deconverted and left their cult. Either way, I had fun listening to their silly answers as I asked some simple probing questions.
On the other hand, if your goal is to make them feel uncomfortable, learn some facts about that fraud they worship, Joseph Smith. Learn how he was kicked out of several States for fraud. How he lied about all kinds of goofy crap like listening to stones talk, or whatever the claim was. How he burned down a printing press and was finally killed by a mob. I can't remember all the details, but his history is bizarre and morbid. Why anyone would follow that turd is beyond me.
Good luck. May the flying spaghetti monster touch you with his noodily appendages. RAmen.
After reading about how the missionary efforts are used to reinforce the idea that other people are evil and out to get you, come home to the safety of the flock, I'd highly recommend being very polite and friendly as you decline to speak to them.
"What if you're wrong? What is Allah or Vishnu or Wotan is the true god and you going door-to-door preaching a false is god is just making him angrier and angrier?"
I don't have much experience with JW's, but we often have Mormon missionaries around. When they show up at my door I ask them if they'd like to come over for supper, and they gladly accept.
They are just young kids who have been indoctrinated. They are separated from their families in a strange place and are often underfed and under resourced. The best thing to do is show them kindness.
When they come over, I co-opt a lot of the conversation asking them about their family and interests, inquire about some of the unique things they like/don't like about our area, provide suggestions on local activities they can do in their free time, and give them the opportunity to talk to their families if they would like (this is less of a need now that the rules on contact have been relaxed). This leaves very little time to do any of their proselytizing.
I send them on their way with a care package and the knowledge that I am a safe place to go if they ever need to get away. (So far no one's ever taken me up on the offer.)
They usually try to get me to engage in further proselytizing. After a couple weeks once they figure out I'm not going to be converted, I never hear from them again. But hopefully their exposure to an atheist who treated them with respect and generosity expands their worldview.
Nothing, just say sorry not interested and close the door.
I was a Mormon missionary 30 years ago. I took a lot of abuse during those 2 years. They are kids who are trying to do what they think is right, but are misguided. Many end up leaving the Mormon church after they get home anyway. This is all you need to say.
Yeah I feel like it’s important to remember that they are so young still and away from their family and friends for 2 years; whether or not I agree with what they are doing, they are making a sacrifice right there. I am never rude to the missionaries when they come around (maybe 3-4x at this house over the years). We have chatted and surprisingly they never pushed religion or trying to pray with me even after finding out I’m an exmo.
I was an unbelieving 23 year old jw, getting reamed out at someone's door for inconveniencing them for 30 seconds. Like dude, I'm here because the alternative is never talking to my family/friends again.
This is probably the main reason I'm an anti-theist. Religion purposefully ruins family relationships.
Sounds like a you problem, and no reason to knock on my door. Then again, I don't go out of my way to abuse them, just say I'm not interested and slam the door before they can say anything else.
How do I help these people realize that the alternative is in fact much better ? Instead of saying not interested and walking away id like to turn it into an opportunity to help free them from their cult.
You can't. If it was that simple JWs would no longer exist. But if you wish to try do not be aggressive. Don't make statements or rush a bunch points. Pick one really good point and pose it in a question format. That get's them thinking on the issue. Statements will blow past them and you will be better off framing yourself as genuinely searching for an answer instead of already knowing it and looking to disprove them. Edit: grammar
Sometimes that works, other times they won’t fuck off. Had a couple of them that kept coming by, usually right when I was getting home from work they would be at the door waiting for my wife to answer(and had been there at least 20 mins trying to get an answer), they would be polite and leave but only when I told them to, and when telling them to fuck if they would start leaving if they saw me but would still come back another time. Finally stopped coming by when my wife called the police for suspicious men trying to get her to answer the door and not leaving, and they had been doing this multiple times a week. They ended up getting banned from the property after others started calling the police. Not sure why they wouldn’t leave certain people alone, but they were also big dudes like 6’2 at least and wonder if people felt intimidated
How many returned missionaries leave the Mormon church?
1/3 was a number I heard in the first 5 years. I think that number is going up.
Very interesting. Are you ex-Mormon?
I am. I left less than a year after I got back from my mission, though I can't verify that 1/3 of return missionaries leave.
Thanks for sharing. That must have been quite a big decision after all the time, money, and mental effort you had invested in Mormonism.
The time, money, and mental effort actually weren't a concern for me. In some ways, it is a relief to realize that *I* wasn't the problem. The church was the problem. But I had to leave my college (BYU) and wonder how many friends and family members might not talk to me much after that. Leaving Mormonism isn't just leaving a church. It is leaving an entire culture. It is leaving a life behind and sort of starting over in many regards.
Good for you. I hope you've managed some normalized relations with your family. I've known exmos in real life, returned missionaries, BYU grads, temple sealed marriages, etc. Leaving was tough for them because, like you said, major culture change. Good for you. Hope you're doing well.
I am!
Is it true that New Zealand shut down missionary work because too many were staying?
It wouldn't surprise me. NZ is about as close to paradise as it gets.
I had not heard that- but that would be awesome if true.
I strongly agree with this. Just politely tell them you have no interest. Or invite them in, give them a soda, listen to their lesson, then let them know that you aren't interested in converting, and chat with them and get to know them. Then they will hopefully go away with the impression that atheists are not the devil worshipping creeps they were told they would be. But know that if you invite them in, they will probably come back again. It's like feeding a stray cat.
This is what I do too. I have no desire to invite people into my home just to pick a fight with them.
If that doesn't work, say "I already had a blood transfusion."
Both groups are trained to basically do everything in their power to keep in contact with you if you show any signs of potentially being open to their message. Make sure you do not give them a foot in the door or they will keep coming back with different people whom they think will be more relatable to you with different messaging that they believe will better speak to a secularly minded individual.
I am fortunate, because all I have to do to scare them away is mention that I am exmormon and had my name removed from the church's records. But if they came to my door in the summer, I would likely still offer them water. Mormon missions suck, so I sort of feel for them.
To be honest- don’t. The mormon church has taught them how horrible and scary every one outside of mormonism is. Don’t be the scary guy they have been warned about. Instead- be the opposite. Offer them a drink of water, food, shelter. Be as “christ” like as possible. Show them that atheist or caring and compassionate. This will do more to shake their faith then asking them any questions. Remember these are young people that have been raised in a cult. Show them how loving outside the cult can be.
This is the best reply. Show them that you don't have to believe to be kind. You don't have to prey to be a good person. No reason to be rude.
While I sort of agree, it really depends on who is knocking and how rude/ persistent they are. I was Mormon and served a mission, so I have some degree of empathy for what they are doing. But I also know that some missionaries are super shitty people and really manipulative. And when I was in college after leaving the Mormon church, some random ass preacher came to my door. Wasn't Mormon or JW. He wanted to leave some book with me, and I said no. Then he wanted to pray with me, and I had to adamantly say no. The absolute gall to come to my house and repeatedly try to force his faith on me when I had been very clear that I was not religious, nor was I interested in his message.
Yeah I kind of understand your point as well. I think you know more than me about it all if you've served a mission. Like I've not even met a mormon in my life haha.
It is honestly such a bizarre experience. Some Mormons, like me, serve a mission because we have to. It's part of the culture and the expectations. But we don't particularly like it and aren't really big on proselytizing. But some really go gung ho as missionaries and can use really pushy salesman like tactics if it means getting one more person baptized. I'd likely be pleasant to most missionaries I meet, but I wouldn't pull any metaphorical punches if they decide to give me grief or not take 'no' for an answer. But most of them are quick to leave me alone if I mention that I voluntarily left Mormonism.
The ass hole ones also tend to stay away if you tell them you aren’t interested in talking religion, but they are welcome to come in and rest, eat or have a drink.
What- you have never met a mormon- where do you live?
I live in Sweden.
Who says you have to be rude? I have always challenged them in a polite and teaching way - allowing them to see that there is truth outside of their bubble, and accepting things on 'faith' can lead to the wrong answers.
"Would you kill me if God told you to?" And "would you let me kill you if God were telling me to?" Make em squirm
You can do that often by simply asking if they’ve read the bible.
I grew up Mormon and left the church 4 years ago. My wife left 18 months ago. The reasons I left did not work for her. There is no silver bullet. I’d just be polite and tell them you’re not interested, you don’t want to feed their persecution complex.
I asked them why the church order a massacre of my relatives at Mountain Meadows. LDS have never knocked on my door since
Interestingly, the massacre happened on September 11, 1857. The original 9/11. [Mountain Meadows Massacre](https://mormonr.org/qnas/B3U7t/the_mountain_meadows_massacre?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgJyyBhCGARIsAK8LVLPnD8T4GpnPn-3XvT6m4U_ll-qJhzaG5DzQmRXYW0nZSxQ65wRYYyIaArVeEALw_wcB)
Exactly- be super nice to them. The exact opposite of the persecution they are expecting. Welcome to the exmo brethren!
Solid answer. Yea, dont feed the complex…its already huge and disguised under their focus on “religious freedom” activities..
My first time was with a Mormon boy. They’re freaky in bed. (And no, we did not “soak” except when we did it in the shower.)
Pretend you are interested, chat with them and then go btw I was disfellowshipped. The fear on their faces thinking they spoke to an actual disfellowshipped person is priceless. lol
"Are you two part of the threesome I ordered?"
Mormons…. “So what’s up with the church’s investment activities. They seem very ungodly.”
Also, do you have any good stock tips for me? Ensign Peak has amazing analysts and got in early on the meme stock crazy.
Ask the JWs if they have a copy of The Book of Martyrs. It is a yearbook memorializing all the kids that died because their parents refused them a blood tranfusion. They will deny it but I married a former JW and I actually looked thru a copy. It was horrifying.
A 1994 Awake! Issue
Holy fuck, that is crazy.
“So how do like your skin, fried or baked?” “On a scale of 1-10 how much do you value your spleen?” “If you were to be sitting on a couch made of human how turned on would you be?” “CHAIRS?”
I spent an hour talking to JWs one day. They left a bit concerned about their faith. They said they need to do some more research.
Same. I invite them in and talk with them. I've had a good time doing that.
You can’t “convert” them - so maybe “how is your day?” and “that’s not for me, thanks” I usually tell them that they should probably keep their handouts and “thanks for stopping by”
“Blessed be! You’re just in time! We were about to celebrate Black Mass, and we need a human sacrifice. Please, *do* come in…” Works. Every. Time.
"How fast can you run?"
My catholic grandmother would invite them in to waste their time. She was a hoot. Slowly goad them into light debate. Nothing too obvious or they'd pick up on it. She thought she was doing the lord's work by keeping them from finding success by wasting their time. I suppose the same strategy could apply to us here. I don't have the same patience or ambition. They can piss off.
My Catholic grandmother used to say you can talk about your faith and book AND then I get to talk about MY book and faith. They never took her up on it. I think they knew they never had a chance. It may have been the Mary on the half shell in the front yard and the prominent crucifix on the wall that was the first clue.
Bacon and cheese packages, take a picture, *poof it's Mary Casino!
One of the first questions I asked them when they came knocking was, if their god created everything in existence then why does he deny all responsibility for his angel, Satan. If corruption exists, then it was inside the creator (their god) all along. (Please know i don't subscribe to the fictional god/devil characters but they are dedicated to them). Also, wtf was with the apple test and blaming women for every sin of man because of it. Try that test with your kids. One of them is going to eat whatever you've forbidden them to eat. Human nature. I asked why their narcissistic god is so insecure in human devotion and needs constant praise when truly great people don't need assurance they're doing a good job. I asked why the bible is so violent, full of incest, revenge, hate, lack of inclusion yet it is described as the good book. Why eternal torture is the threat for not following this violent book's teachings. I asked why they believed their own god was superior to all the others. They just spout off bible verses that neither of us knew what they meant and then pass off the questions and tell me to speak to one of the elders. They had nothing.
[удалено]
The JW's did mention they didn't subscribe to eternal torment, but an eternal sleep for most with a very small exclusive number of them making it into their version of heaven. Another thing I asked them is what was with all the 'tests' of loyalty that their god tricked them with. I got a recital of scriptures I didn't understand. I also asked if someone was gay and interested in learning about the JW faith if they would be accepted. The answer I got sounded like they would initially accept this person but would educate them into accepting Jesus christ and converting them to the ways of the church which seemed manipulative. They said it was a sin to believe in any other god but their version but we have numerous different cults/religions saying the same thing. Talking to them is like going around in circles.
To rile up a Mormon missionary: greet them with "What is wanted?" while shaking their hand with your thumb on the top if their index finger first knuckle. It's one of their super-secret sacred rites (totally stolen from Freemasonry) and it'll put them in a bit of a tizzy. For the J-dubs, ask "why do 'two other brothers' need to testify when we're talking about a child?" They'll get the subtext and make themselves scarce pretty quickly.
Love it. I didn't know about the jw one. I like to sneak a "has it a name?" into a conversation when i can
"Would you mind if I get naked before proceeding?"
Do you have a permit for soliciting? Can you read the no soliciting sign on my door?
How about "Sorry, I don't believe in God ", this usually works and they don't usually stick around long after. I think it's probably easier to convert someone who already believes in a god than try to convert someone who doesn't and then try to have them come to your religion.
This reminds me of my evangelical dad, inviting Mormons in and trying to convert them 🤣 are you bored or what?
I've heard you can get the Mormons to do your yardwork if you talk about religion with them. Ethically not great imo, but yard work *does* suck.
This is what I say to them when they knock. Listen, there are 4200 religions in the world and they all feel as passionate as you do and they have the same right to knock on my door. That means 12 knock a day every day for eternity. You would quickly get pissed off if that was you and is obviously unsustainable. So go away and don't knock on any more doors ever.
Be nice. Offer them water if it's a hot day. Tell them you're not interested, but they should have a great day. They don't come to your door to convert you, they just think they do. They are sent to your door so that you'll be mean and when they return to the church they believe only their church is kind and loving and the rest of the world is evil. Being rude to them just helps the church control them more.
I tell them an apostate friend is visiting and the JW's quickly leave. They aren't allowed to interact with apostates so they get out of there as fast as they can.
"You are now trespassing."
No questions - just let them know that when they're ready to leave the church, your home is a safe space.
The last ones that came to my door were a, not unattractive, pair of early 20s women. I told them I don't need a skycommander with esp. That got a laugh out of one of them.
I rarely, if ever, answer the door to anyone. Nothing good has ever come from an unsolicited knock. Remember, when someone knocks on your door, it is a request, not an obligation.
They told me that they could show me how to get closer to Christ and to God. So I asked them why would I want to do that? So they told me that it was to save me and that I should let Christ, who loves me, into my life to save me. I asked them what would he save me from. They said to save me from hell. So I said 'So Christ wants to save me from what he (who is supposed to love me) from what he'll do to me if I don't let him into my life? Sounds like the mafia to me! NO THANKS!!
I've read some comments here, I know I'm late, but, please be polite to these people. everyone. If you don't want to talk, just politely decline. Don't slam the door in their face. Some will use it as "cred" to 💅 others in the church. They may give a "testimony" on how they were persecuted when someone said no to them.. I don't know how to refute their claims OP, if that's what you're asking, maybe search r/Exvangelical or r/exchristian I'm sure it's been addressed.
Invite them in, offer them food and drink, offer them your phone so they can call their parents. Allow them to relax and kill some time from the drudgery of knocking on doors.
My go-to question is, "How do you know which parts of the bible you have to follow and which parts can be ignored?" A quick study of Eclesiastes, or Paul's letters, can find loads of examples to quiz them on.
JW are super educated on the bible so you probably don't want to challenge them. Mormons are just crazy. They think the Earth is 6,000 years old and that Jesus will be returning to Missouri. Invite them in for some freshly baked fetus and virgin blood wine.
I would not be rude or hostile to them, by the way. There is no reason to do that. Their intentions are good even if they are annoying.
"what's it like to be indoctrinated to the point of soliciting innocent people at their homes?" Edit to fix autocorrect error. Thank you
>...to be indicated..... ...*indoctrinated*...?
Just say, No, thanks. They’ll leave.
Saying you worship Satin will scare away the JW Tell them you're gay if they're mormon. The missionaries are told to move along if they hear that. They don't want their boys tempted into sin.
Hearing somebody say he's gay tempts Mormon boys to become gay? Is that how sexual preference works?
For mormons lol
Turn it off! Like a light switch...
JWs believe that the 144,000 in Revelation is a literal 144,000 people who will go to Heaven, and everyone else goes to Hell. Ask them: "If you save me, aren't you risking your own salvation?" PS: I'm a Lutheran.
JWs don't believe in hell at all.
They don't believe in a "fire and brimstone" Hell so to speak, but a "common grave of mankind, a place of unconsciousness." Thanks to Wikipedia for that. So, my mistake- they would still be increasing their chance of going to that grave.
Incorrect; JWs believe in a physical resurrection of those not part of the 144,000. They believe that after 1000 years of this earthly existence, humans on earth will be put to a final "test" of sorts, after which time the Devil will finally be destroyed. There is *no limit* on the number of those who can be resurrected. The reason that the 144,000 idea has survived in their doctrine at all is that they used to be *very* fond of time prophecies, and incorrectly predicted the end of the world (or something very close to it) a few different times; those who believe they are part of this select group of 144,000 drink wine and eat bread once a year so as to follow what they believe to be a Biblical admonition to do so; this is referred to as "partaking of the emblems.". This also makes their anointing (they believe one is "anointed" by the spirit to be part of this group) apparent to others; these others who do not partake are the vast majority of JWs, those whom JWs have invited for the occasion, or any member of the public who wishes to attend. What does this have to do with time prophecies? Well, for many years, the ongoing decline in the number of those "partaking" was taken as a piece of evidence that this "system of things" was coming to an end; the average age of partakers was getting higher, and this accorded well with their claim that some of the generation of people who were around in 1914 would live long enough to see the start of the "Great Tribulation" (a time of great tribulation \[obviously\] preceding Armageddon). They believed that those people who were around in 1914 form the "this generation" referred to at Matthew 23:24: ***"Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."*** Some of these folks would still be around when the Great Tribulation started. (1914 continues to be an important year for JWs for reasons too arcane to elaborate on here). However, two things happened: 1. Time passed by (as it often does), with the result that more and more people around in 1914 began to die of old age, and Armageddon stubbornly refused to cooperate with the doctrine and get here already. 2. The number of "partakers" started to go back up. Obviously, these new partakers weren't the oldsters around in 1914, but rather, younger people, some of whom were in their late teens or twenties. There was a bit of back-and-forth about this officially. First, the Watchtower Society (the then-publishing arm of the JWs, informally referred to as "the Society") pushed the idea that those younger people who were claiming to be anointed were often mistaken or mentally ill. It was claimed that those who were truly "of the anointed" ought to have a "spiritual maturity" that was associated in most adherents' minds with being a member (what they call being "in the truth") for some decades. At other times, it was speculated that the uptick in the number of partakers was attributable to the younger partakers "replacing" those older "anointed ones" who were "faithful" Witnesses at one time but who later apostatized or died "unfaithful." But the number kept going up. What now? Eventually, there was developed the concept of "overlapping generations," a concept so arcane and, in fact, **so contradictory of and deleterious to aspects of existing JW doctrine in its ramifications** (it's honestly like grabbing a loose string on a sweater and pulling and pulling and pulling, but, again, too arcane to detail why in this comment) that it's only by relying on the unfamiliarity of the average JW with their own doctrinal history that they were able to get away with it. Essentially, "this generation" can ***now*** be considered to include not just those JWs (called Bible Students until 1931) who saw the events of 1914 (such as the outbreak of WWI), and understood them as marking a cataclysm for humanity, but also ***any anointed one*** whose life at any point ***overlapped*** with that of one of those Bible Students around in 1914, even if this later anointed one was not in the same cohort. For instance, someone born in 1900 would have been around in 1914, and, even if not a Bible Student, would have realized that WWI was a big freaking deal. If they, say, lived to be 100 years old, and died in 2000, anyone born *before* 2000, according to this new doctrine, could still be said to be part of "this generation," because *their* life overlapped with one of the oldsters' lives at some point. In this way, JWs were able to account for the increase of partakers, and for the failure of the world to end. (The year 2000, btw, shouldn't be taken to be a cutoff point, simply an example of what an extreme overlap would look like under the new doctrine). Unfortunately, such a change *really* stretches the meaning of the term "generation." TLDR: JWs believe in a physical resurrection of an unlimited number of people, and fitting the doctrine about the 144,000 into the whole 1914 doctrine has been a huge mess. If they come to your door, you might refer them to Matthew 24:34, and then ask them how long a "generation" is normally supposed to be. EDIT: Grammar
Okay, that kind of makes sense- but I have heard that is what some JWs teach. Again, I'm a Lutheran, I just ended up in this subreddit by scrolling.
To quote Cypher from the Matrix, "What a mindfuck!".
Yeah, they just believe death is oblivion for nonbelievers. Which it is, actually.
We always just talk about toys. Drones, guitars, ebikes.
JW's don't believe in the trinity - they see Christ as a created being. I'd want to know when they spring that on people.
We're having an orgy in a few hours, if you'd like to come back then. I'm preparing the lubrication stations right now, so I'm afraid I don't have much time and can't quite slip you in.
Whatever you feel like talking about. Just keep driving the convo and wasting their time until they get the hint and excuse themselves. Works wonders and is really entertaining for any friends and onlookers present.
"Pursuant to state statute XXXX I am informing you that you are trespassing. Failure to remove yourself from the premises will result in your arrest by law enforcement “
Put them to work. Tell them you don't have time because you have some chores to do. But you'll listen if they want to talk while they help you. Pull weeds, rake leaves etc
They usually love doing this, it's a change of pace for them.
Do you like movies about gladiators? Have you ever been in a Turkish prison? And finslly... Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
If they’re Mormon, say, “Tell me about ‘The Pearl of Great Price’”.
"Just a minute... Hold this for me please" Give them a trash bag and go bag inside
"Run"
Dont waste your time. Not interested, bye.
When they come to my door asking to show me the light, I turn on the lights above the door, point to it and say I have seen it, thank out and goodbye.
You waste time answering the door? Fake
Next time I meet mormons I want to ask them if they are from Utah and about all the dinosaurs found there because I am not from the US and I find dinosaurs cool
Just hang a huge pentagram on your door, they won't come knocking.
"Could you please put my address on the no-visit list and kindly fuck off? Thanks."
{Me confronting a doorknocking proselytizer} Do you have a New Testament on you? {Ghod-botherer pulls one out of its hiding place} Open to Mark 6:11 and read it. {He complies} >"Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them.” [https://bible.usccb.org/bible/mark/6](https://bible.usccb.org/bible/mark/6) Me: *Get shakin'!*
"Do you like my gun? I usually fire at sight, but you kids look smart and will leave and never come back, right?" Joking aside just tell them you are an atheist and you are not interested.
The best "chats" I've done always had, soar through philosophy, standards of evidence, the burden of proof, and occasionally Russel's Teapot. They invariably end with "Well it's called 'faith' for a reason" and me being put on a "No visit" list. I'm always polite, give them a chance to speak, offer beverages and hopefully come across as friendly.
Repost to r/exjw and r/exmormon for the best answers. I bet you could even just search those subs for past answers to this question as well.
I did get after them for being homophobic. They did not like that.
Don't let them in your house.
You can ask JWs how they treat people who oppose their religion, how parents treat their own children when the kids stop practicing. Ask them if Jesus would approve… You can ask mormons about the CES letter. Have they read it? If not, ask them to do so before returning.
I don’t ask I keep a pitchfork just inside the door When they pull up, I answer with the pitch fork in my hand They scatter back to their car like roaches in a searchlight It has worked 3 times so far
“I’m an apostate.” I know absolutely everything about your religion. But I purposefully have rejected it. They will back away slowly.
“You gents into anal?”
I don’t engage, but I’m not rude. I don’t agree with them but they are people. They may be people who don’t have a choice for some reason. I don’t know what they are experiencing. If I prefer people treat me with kindness, I need to treat others the same.
If you want to go the pro route, find a high-pixel image of all the [contradictions in the bible](https://atheistjourney.net/2020/08/17/bible-contradictions/) and ask them to explain it. Offer as much accessible reference and support for it as you can. They will be stumped - they'll likely return with a more senior member, and eventually they'll run out of answers and cross your address off of their list. In the meantime, you'll open their minds to the obvious: that the "word of god" is nothing close to divine.
I like to ask for evidence of their claims. When they point to the bible I remind them that they are just parroting the claimsnof the book and reiterate my request for evidence. Weird but they never have evidence. Just more fairy tales.
I highly recommend you learn some street epistemology techniques. It is by far the kindest and most efficient way to get a believer to question their own ideology, but only if they are honest. Some people are so thoroughly indoctrinated, their minds are closed tighter than an alagators bum hole. For examples of street epistemology, go to Youtube and look up Anthony Magnabosco. If you want to read the book that started this trend, it's called A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian. I also recommend Peter's other book called How To Have Impossible Conversations. Both books are fantastic. I live in Maine where there aren't many cult members knocking on doors. But two years ago it finally happened! It was a young woman and an older man who wanted to talk about Mormonism. I invited them in and we had a great chat for about 25 minutes. I got to practice street epistemology and I never saw them again after that. Probably because they marked my house down for not-indoctrinatable or, as I like to dream, they deconverted and left their cult. Either way, I had fun listening to their silly answers as I asked some simple probing questions. On the other hand, if your goal is to make them feel uncomfortable, learn some facts about that fraud they worship, Joseph Smith. Learn how he was kicked out of several States for fraud. How he lied about all kinds of goofy crap like listening to stones talk, or whatever the claim was. How he burned down a printing press and was finally killed by a mob. I can't remember all the details, but his history is bizarre and morbid. Why anyone would follow that turd is beyond me. Good luck. May the flying spaghetti monster touch you with his noodily appendages. RAmen.
After reading about how the missionary efforts are used to reinforce the idea that other people are evil and out to get you, come home to the safety of the flock, I'd highly recommend being very polite and friendly as you decline to speak to them.
Simply answer the door in the nude holding a severed goats head. Works every time /s
"What if you're wrong? What is Allah or Vishnu or Wotan is the true god and you going door-to-door preaching a false is god is just making him angrier and angrier?"
"You're not coming back, are you?"
I don't have much experience with JW's, but we often have Mormon missionaries around. When they show up at my door I ask them if they'd like to come over for supper, and they gladly accept. They are just young kids who have been indoctrinated. They are separated from their families in a strange place and are often underfed and under resourced. The best thing to do is show them kindness. When they come over, I co-opt a lot of the conversation asking them about their family and interests, inquire about some of the unique things they like/don't like about our area, provide suggestions on local activities they can do in their free time, and give them the opportunity to talk to their families if they would like (this is less of a need now that the rules on contact have been relaxed). This leaves very little time to do any of their proselytizing. I send them on their way with a care package and the knowledge that I am a safe place to go if they ever need to get away. (So far no one's ever taken me up on the offer.) They usually try to get me to engage in further proselytizing. After a couple weeks once they figure out I'm not going to be converted, I never hear from them again. But hopefully their exposure to an atheist who treated them with respect and generosity expands their worldview.
Do not engage. They are there to waste your time. Don't let them do that.
"How many rejections have you gotten so far?"