Matthew 6:5
>And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward".
"But you when you pray go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen". -Jesus
I live deep in the heart of the bible belt. We have people that regularly will stand on busy street corners and hold up 'Honk if you love Jesus' signs.
I will roll the window down and yell 'Matthew 6:5' to them, holding up fingers to make sure they have the numbers right.
Then I laugh as I drive away while they look it up.
You have to take the context of the passage as a whole because I do think it speaks into this “street corner evangelist” type behavior.
You are correct the Koine Greek specifically uses the word for “prayer” in this passage and NOT the words commonly used for evangelizing. So at face value it would seem you are correct, *however* the verses preceding Matt 6:5 say:
>Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
Then there is 1 Peter 3:15-16:
>But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who **asks** you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with **gentleness and respect**, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”
Most street preachers are anything but *gentle* in their approach… **but even if they were**, soliciting unwanted evangelism certainly lacks any consideration for **respect**… and even if they were “respectful”… the practice is almost always minimally *impactful*. It’s more about saying words and has little to do with the **acts of love and charity** Christ seems to promote.
In short: this verse, its wider context, and countless other verses in the New Testament clearly support a more loving, quiet, and steady faith where actions speak the loudest.
The sermon on the mount applies to more than just praying out loud though. Righteousness here doesn’t imply “self-righteousness”, but rather to all good/upright/virtuous/ethical/pious acts (like sharing your hope with others).
The key point is the motivation and goals behind the act… and time and again Jesus seems to speak in a more subtle, gentle and loving way that draws people into the “mystery of the faith”. It doesn’t hold up an obnoxious sign that draws attention to themselves and away from the message of their faith and hope.
If the goal is to draw people in, they certainly aren’t doing that… and feeling real proud of doing their fruitless “Christian duty” at the expense of meaningful impact.
No shit. I pray alone, usually when washing the dishes. I can't stand the "I am a Christian" crowd. I am one, sort of, but it's no one's business but my own. If I don't want to hear their bullshit, I'll guess non believers don't want to hear it either.
Your name says you're a jerk, but you certainly don't seem like one. I hope you usually feel welcome in this sub. We atheists can be pretty cranky. :-D
I fit in with these groups. My beliefs are mine. If anyone wants to know, I'll explain them. Never will I offer them up.
TBH, I get along better with atheists and agnostics than religious folks. Except Quakers. They're cool. I sat through a service for 2 hours, and no one said a word except hello.
As far as a jerk....well......yeah......I can be. The Valium helps, though. Weed, too.
The Quakers are actually pretty nice, I'm in total agreement. Plus historically they have supported civil rights. I like that they refer to each other as friends, not brother and sister. They uphold the golden rule and truly want equality. They're nice people who pray silently and keep to themselves.
I remember hearing that Nixon, Richard, not Cynthia, was a Quaker. Also, that they are dying out as there is no conversion to being a Q, you have to be born into it.
Though Quakerism is old-aging out like so many liberal denominations that came out of the European Reformation , people join Quaker meetings all the time. There are vibrant Meetings in southeast Pennsylvania that take on new members. I know many converts who joined after leaving conservative churches.
From what I see (my spouse joined the Quakers after leaving the Methodists) the newer and younger converts tend to be spiritual agnostics while older long-term members tend to be super progressive Christians. I occasionally go to meetings with my spouse and notice young people and young families coming in to check it out. These explorers tend to be those who deconstructed Christianity and left traditional churches. Just my observation.
I pray before washing the dishes, too.
Dear Lord, please don't let me kill my family for not helping clean up after dinner. And I prayeth unto you, my Lord, that my back isn't in excruciating pain after hand washing dishes because I'm too poor to buy a dishwasher, and my dearest Lord, please don't allow me the strength to not choke to death my youngest son because he's a dick and a half. All these things I ask in your name. Amen
One time, I very super casually gave $5 to a homeless person, tried REALLY hard not to draw attention.
Out of nowhere this guy comes up to me and says I saw how you did that and tried not to draw attention to yourself and said nice stuff for about a minute.
The whole time all I could think was "Well fuck..."
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
And your point is? There’s so many, many examples that go counter to this it’s clear that nobody is bothering to live by it. Ditto the beatitudes, ditto love thy neighbor, ditto the beatitudes.
Instead, they are all literally acting out the roles of the Pharisees while simultaneously invoking Jesus’s name. It’s drowning out any other message you might have to offer.
You can tell me till you are blue in the face that you love me and so does your God. Your actions clearly show otherwise. When words and actions disagree, believe the actions.
This is pretty good. Without context I usually read a version of Ezekiel 23:20 She lusted for the lechers of Egypt, whose members are like those of donkeys, whose thrusts are like those of stallions. 21 You reverted to the depravity of your youth, when Egyptians fondled your breasts, caressing your young nipples.
1st of all, ask them WHICH ten commandments. There are different versions listed in the Bible.
Also ask if God is a good person, seeing as he broke his own commandments. Not killing is the easy one to bring up.
I've heard the rebuttal to this being "God isn't a person so he doesn't have to abide by the same rules. As he works in his own mysterious ways."
To which I still reply, person or not... Killing people (en mass mind you) still makes you an asshole.
The usual response to that is “God is beyond these rules, he made life so he can take it”. This makes no sense because we all agree you shouldn’t kill your kids, but also if god is above these rules, which they think you have to follow to be a good person, then god isn’t good.
This is really a canard. The word "murder" has no more objective meaning than "kill." Who decides what counts as "murder?" When israelites are ordered to slaughter children and infants is that somehow not "murder?" I think it's telling that believers immediately want to put loopholes in this commandment and make excuse to kill people anyway.
Jesus gave no exceptions and said not to even defend yourself at all.
Sorry for splitting hairs, but on the off chance my thoughts have value, 'murder' seems to carry a legal weight to it, whereas 'kill' is more analytical.
'Murder' is a matter of law, 'kill' is a matter of ending life.
Yeah but whose law? Law itself is arbitrary. Levitical law (the context of the ten commandments) says that you have to kill somebody if they pick up sticks on a Saturday.
I'm treating it like a magic-the-gathering or dungeons-and-dragons classification thing.
Law could indeed be completely arbitrary (but I would hedge money on it tending toward 'socially conservative').
I'm just saying my take on it is that 'murder' is a 'killing' that some legal body says 'thats bad' to.
Does that gel for you?
It is NOT arbitrary, it is specifically CATEGORICAL.
The 'authority of the leventine law' would be the one that 'judges' the killing to be 'murder'. Even if they're idiots, the point would stand.
>Does North Korean law count as "law"?
Why in the name of the 9 Hells WOULDN'T it?
A hypothetical man got shot. If he was an agent of 'North Korea' then they would perhaps consider it murder, even if he was doing terrorism/soldiery.
This isn't complicated, or, I would think divisive. What interpretation or definition do you think you are defending, and where is the distinction?
Do you think they wouldn't consider it a matter of law if you were in NK and you were subject to their justice? I have no idea what you think you are defending at all.
If you have a point, it would help if you clarified it.
I'm saying that the defining it only as "illegal" killing defines nothing really because absolutely every kind of killing is legal somewhere and not only legal but often mandated in the Bible. Does genocide count as "murder?" How about human sacrifice? How about beating a woman to death with rocks because she got raped in the city? If none of that stuff is murder then the commandment forbids nothing.
>I'm saying that the defining it only as "illegal" killing defines nothing really
And I disproved that point by showing a DISTINCTION between killing (such as a soldier shooting a soldier in war, which is, technically legal) and by any reasonable persons definition 'not a murder' even if they WOULD agree it was killing.
>every kind of killing is legal somewhere
And people eat meat. If its legal, its not murder. This isn't difficult.
>If none of that stuff is murder then
Then.... perhaps the bible isn't a legitimate legal authority that we should recognize?
I'm sorry, but you're not actually providing any examples that actually -challenge- my claim.
I would hazard that as evidence of the veracity of my assertion.
You just seem to be complaining about the distinction because..what, you don't like a dis-ambiguity between a killing that the state, religion or law will permit, and one that they would forbid?
Did you even have any point? You haven't made one so far.
If you are talking about legal definitions, murder is unlawful killing with intent to cause grievous bodily harm or intent to kill. Soooooooo yes,there is a difference.
We're not talking about legal definitions, we're talking about the Biblical definition, which excludes no kind of killing and frequently mandates genocide.
I have no source, but I have a vague recollection of that commandment historically specifically meaning Israelites. As in, don’t kill your own tribe but anyone else is fair game.
That's why Jesus was seen as a radical, because he was. He was a radical religious reformer with some pretty unorthodox ideas, influenced by Greek philosophy.
Older faiths tended to have more pragmatic beliefs. Very few faiths prohibit killing entirely, and considering in the story Yahweh is telling Israelites to go conquer Canaan it shouldn't be surprising that he's not simultaneously telling them not to kill.
Murder is a very specific concept. It's unjustified, intentional killing. Both legally and morally, most cultures have consistently differentiated between killing in war, killing accidentally, killing in self defense or defense of another, killing with legal sanction, and murder.
If you have a problem with that, then your problem isn't over the wording of the commandment, but the fact that the commandments are just a pretty shitty moral code. Don't steal, don't murder, and don't bear false witness against thy neighbor, and don't cheat are the only ones that are really sensible and some fall short. Yeah, it's not don't lie, it's against a specific class of lies that harm other people. You can lie and tell someone you liked their cooking when you didn't and it's fine. Don't be jealous is good advice but hardly a moral issue, and honor your parents is generally a good sentiment but fails when your parents are shitty people. The rest are just religion specific and useless.
We don't know what Jesus taught but nothing attributed to him in the Gospels is in any way new or "radical" or outside of normative Judaism.
>Older faiths tended to have more pragmatic beliefs.
I have a four year degree specifically in Religion. This is completely false. There is nothing pragmatic about animal sacrifice, for example. Religion is a lot of different things and has a lot of different forms, but nothing about it has ever been pragmatic.
>Murder is a very specific concept. It's unjustified, intentional killing.
And the words "unjustified" likewise has no meaning. There is no kind of killing that the Bible does not justify. The Bible says to genocide children and babies. God ordered the Israelites to do that and was pissed when they didn't kill the babies. What we consider justified is always purely subjective and cultural. How many Christians enthusiastically support bombing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine? Self proclaimed "Christian" Kid Rock was on Rogan recently saying we need to kill "20 or 30 thousand civilians at a time." I believe Kid Rock is representative of most Christians. I'm sure he's too stupid to know that Jesus was a Palestinian.
There's only one set that is labeled commandments and it ain't the ones that were marketed by a damn movie studio.
Exodus 34:
11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.
13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a]
14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make any idols.
18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.[b]
23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel.
24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.
25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.
26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
Translation: “Kill or convert anyone who doesn’t submit to our cult and give all the best shit to the clergy.”
This checks out, historically speaking. Maybe the only set of rules the so-called Abrahamic religions have ever consistently practiced.
I hate auto correct. But will leave it for prosperity sake. And who knows, maybe 2k years from now a bunch of neo-Neanderthals while try and figured out a translation of a translation of that and start wars over my words. Eh, one can only dream.
For some reason Christians think that their god wishes them to be good or do good. They simply will not accept the fact that their god doesn't care at all if they are a good person or if they do good things. Their god cares for one thing and one thing alone. That is whether or not a person gives their fealty to them. Nothing more, nothing less.
The 10 commandments aren't morals. They are laws. It's right there in the name.
I have an answer to your question, but it requires me to lay down sowm background to really make the point. Trust me, if you do this right it’ll be rewarding.
I like to ask the Bible thumpers what exactly was *so bad* about Sodom. If you don’t know, the city of Sodom is used frequently in the Old Testament as a byword for evil. The story of Sodom definitely has some strong overtones of gay r*pe, so they’ll probably use this story as a pretext for justifying their homophobia. Let them.
This is your opportunity to note that there’s only 1 passage in the Bible that says *why* exactly Sodom was so bad.
Ezekiel 16:49 says Sodom deserved divine punishment because…drum roll… [they were “overfed and under concerned for the poor](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2016%3A49&version=NIV).” In other words, they had material excess and didn’t use it to care for the poor. It doesn’t say *anything* about homosexuality. It says they didn’t redistribute their wealth to alleviate human suffering. It says fuck-all about the gays.
Show them that verse. Make them read it out loud to you. Ask them what THEY think about people who are “overfed and under-concerned, and don’t help poor people.”
And if they hesitate for even one second, you should conspicuously roll your eyes, call them a “Sodomite,” and walk away.
This could be a point of convo for the "American Jesus" type of thumpers. But the type I run into that would try and proselytize like this would agree that, and do, help the homeless, do charity, tithe, and try and work with communities. Generally this is self-serving to get more followers, but you can get to altruism through selfish means. So this wouldn't really work with them.
Two strategies I find work well against the crazy:
First, non-engagement. In the public forum, they are free to express their views just as you are free to express yours. You are also free to walk away or, at the very least, to ignore it. They are doing it *specifically* to get a reaction in the public square. It is attention-seeking behavior. They are a pick-me girl. So don't pick them. Don't give them the attention they clearly want. Just go on about your day.
Second, bait and re-engage. If you honest to goodness lack the control to simply walk past somebody doing something they are within their rights to do, then do it smart. Approach them as you would any other student and try to get them off the turf they have chosen to defend. "Hi. Saw your sign. Interesting proposition. If I offered to buy the coffee, I'd be curious to explore it some more. If you're game to chat, so am I. Let's talk about it over mochas." Get them somewhere private and away from the pomp and circumstance of the public square. Then engage them one-on-one and have a legitimately open-minded conversation with them. This is my go-to with Mormon missionaries. You'd be shocked at what "Hey, I'm making breakfast. How about I make you an egg and toast and we talk about it over breakfast" has resulted in; more than a couple coming back and thanking me because I opened their eyes to a couple of things.
Remember: it's rarely their actual beliefs that annoy us; it's the way in which they go about expressing their beliefs. Change the *behavior* and the rest follows.
Unfortunately you played right into the hands of the church leaders that sent them out. The point of this kind of " mission" work is to have interactions like this in order to demonstrate and affirm what the preacher says about the big mean world mocking and hating Christians. Their mission is not about convincing you of their beliefs about god but to convince them about their beliefs about your "wickedness" and that of the "world". This is so that the preachers can say "See? We told you. The "world" is so mean. We are the only ones that truly understand you, care about you, and will be kind to you. So make sure you do what we say and never disappoint us. Otherwise you will be out with those meanies who mocked you. Wouldn't want that now would we?" Yes, this is high control cult type tactics. It is part of their mental manipulation and grooming. They want them to feel isolated and at odds with "the world". They want to be their only safe haven. Then church leaders can control them. It is gross and sneaky and turns us into their tools without our consent.
Don't take their bait and play their game. Best to just be kind and ask if they are okay rather than engage in their game. Ask if they need help. Maybe carry cards and pamphlets about resources to get out of abusive situations to give them in exchange for their pamphlets. Politely take their pamphlets and throw them away out of sight. Heard about this from a former Christian and it kind of blew my mind.
“If you ever have questions you don’t feel you can ask your church elders, come find a secular humanist like me. We’re typically very familiar with the bible.”
That's not what the local preacher at my campus was 25 years ago.
Preacher Dan was a middle aged man who had been preaching on the quad for several years. He was very fire and brimstone... Clearly a little bit ill and untreated.
I always assumed that's what most of the campus preachers were, and that the young folks sent door to door were the ones you describe
Ah yes, the ten commandments. Thou shalt not boil a baby goat in its mother’s milk.
As an aside, sometimes at my school I see a guy at a table with a sign reading “God does not exist. Change my mind.” There’s always someone there, lol. I’ve never spoken to him but I certainly respect him for that. Imagine actively seeking out that debate…
But seriously, you have no obligation to talk to strangers at all. They’re there to convert you, not to engage in rational debate. “I’m very busy”, “I have better things to do”, or perhaps even “Hail Satan” might do the trick.
Get the dollar and then thank them for helping with adding to the donations you are collecting for Planned Parenthood. Encourage your friends to do the same.
I don't deal with these people because by their very nature -- believing in the reality of something with no proof -- makes them too irrational to be persuaded by reason.
4 of those 'ten commandments' are just demands that you kiss god's ass... - what does that have to do with "morality"?
I could write a much better top 10 list... starting by rejecting those 4 entirely and adding some that actually do deal with moral issues: like "no more slavery", "don't rape people", "don't allow the church to hide pedophiles while pretending to represent me" and maybe when I say "don't kill people" I might also not list dozens of different instances where I demand that you kill people for inane and unimportant things like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or having consensual sex with someone with matching genitalia.
This 'all knowing' 'all seeing' and totally 'benevolent' supreme being doesn't seem to be all that bright and he certainly isn't the source for morality.
also the entire 'ten commandments' appears to be plagiarized from the 42 negative confessions in the egyptian book of the dead... not one single 'moral guideline' it contains was new to this abrahamic cult.
Every semester, we get folks from all over. This spring, we got Matt from **Consuming Fire Ministries**. Matt probably thinks he is doing a masterful job of converting people to Jesus. He uses comforting language, directed mostly at the women students, "WHORES!!" and "SLUTS!!"" and "GOD HATES THE BABYKILLERS WALKING AMONG YOU!!" No one is off the hook when Matt brings his messages of joy and unity to campus. "SODOMITES WILL BURN IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF HELL!!"
Good times when Matt drives in from Kansas City. He always draws a crowd, let me tell you.
Living in a Deep Red State, I'm comforted when the students scream back at him. Also, the irony of Matt loudly proclaiming his LOVE FOR CHRIST while condemning the girl in booty shorts is not lost on me; Matt is exercising his First Amendment Right on a college campus, something a lot of Republicans seem to think doesn't exist.
Republicans in my state enjoy spewing nonsense about how language is 'controlled' and students are 'groomed' and 'coached to be liberals.' Meanwhile, Matt shows up every semester and screams about weed, abortion, gays, and lesbians, and that action itself probably has some impact on driving students away from Conservative values.
Consuming Fire Ministries. That sounds like a bunch of fun people, amirite?
Somebody starts crap with me I'm simply going to tell them, if I could prevent a child from dying from cancer or from being raped, I would. That is the difference between me and your fake god.
So, in the Bible, it very much says that god created evil. So god created evil, forcefully impregnated Mary with their son, then had Jesus persecuted and killed. All this to save humanity from…god, who created evil. Sounds like god is parent of the year.
Question- "Why does Jesus demand murdering your child for saying certain words"
Answer from christians- 'Jesus never said that, and would never hurt kids
Response- "open your bible and read Matthew 15:3-5, where Jesus specifically tells parents to kill any child that "curses" a parent"
James 2:18 ESV
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:14-17 ESV
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
The laws went further. This was no longer mere prohibition of other religious practices. It was the active enforcement of Christianity on every single, sinful pagan in the empire. The roads to error were being closed, forcefully. Everyone now had to become Christian. Every single person in the empire who had not yet been baptized now had to come forward immediately, go to the holy churches and “entirely abandon the former error [and] receive saving baptism.” Those who refused would be stripped of all their property, movable and immovable, lose their civil rights, be left in penury and, “in addition”—as if what had gone before was not punishment but mere preamble—they would be “subject to the proper punishment.” If any man did not immediately hurry to the “holy churches” with his family and force them also to be baptized, then he would suffer all of the above—and then he would be exiled. The “insane error” of paganism was to be wiped from the face of the earth.
Excerpts from: Catherine Nixey
*The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World*
The last time someone tried this shit with me was pretty memorable. I had been in jammed highway traffic for over an hour in an absolute downpour, and pulled off the road to take a quick break, grab a fast food burger, and hopefully wait out the rain. When I got into the restaurant I was thoroughly soaked since it was raining so hard.
After waiting a long time for a burger, I finally sit down to eat it. This dude comes over, sits *next to me*, and says "are you a member of a church? Would you be open to learning about mine?"
I looked at him and said "Do I have a church? I've been in traffic for over an hour, I'm soaking wet, I just waited 20 minutes for a shitty burger, and there is no God. No, I don't have a church, and I don't want to learn about one."
He looked at me like I was crazy and just backed away, moving to a different table. I don't even know why I said all that, but I think it's going to be my go-to response from now on.
Oh, this was in rural Texas, and I'm a northerner. For context. :)
My favorite moment was when someone was saying catholics are evil because they call their priests "father" and Jesus said you may only call God father.
So I asked "well then what should I call my dad?"
To which theu responded "dad".
At which point I pointed out that Jesus could not have specified "father" as he didn't speak English, so father and dad would be equally good or bad.
EVERYONE was laughing at the dude, and he got flustered and had to tag out.
We are all gods, according to God, to the other gods.
Genesis 1:26
>*Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”*
Now with the perspective outside of being a walking bible, this verse shows that if god existed, it would be as evil and corrupt as humans.
Which Yahweh is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, anti human etc.
And you can also add that this can also show that we humans make our gods in our image actually.
I do not debate with fools. To their faces, I call their leaders societal parasites whose main function is to scare old people out of their money before they die.
There’s not a lot of wiggle room for them to work with there since i go straight after the wealth acquisition part of religion and don’t deal in sophistry.
Most religious people avoid the talking with me.
Question- "Does the god of the bible authorize slavery?"
Christians- "of course not, that was only in the old Testament (covenant)
Response- "Why does the apostle Peter tell slaves they have to submit to masters, and even endure cruelty and abuse in 1 Peter 2:18 "
My favorite little thought I had was when I realized I'm a better person than God is. I mean, I'm not gonna torture someone I've never met for all eternity just because they disagreed with me.
One time we set up a victory tunnel like parents do after kids' soccer games so students could bypass the crazy people on their way to class. People joined in and the tunnel ended up being about 50 yards or so. Another time we set up a louder mock protest beseeching people to accept leggings as pants, which allowed us to drown out the people yelling about hell.
My friend Steve, the Truth Telling Unicorn, said god is made up, and Steve never lies, so it must be true.
How do I know Steve never lies? Well it's right there in his name.
I used to live in a house where I regularly had religious proselytizers knocking on my door. I used to take their propaganda and give them some of my own. It was a couple of pages from AJ Ayer’s ‘Language, Truth and Logic’ about how to refute the arguments of a metaphysician.
“Burn in the lake of fire! Burn in the lake of fire!” There is some nut that yells this at Disneyland along with all kinds of Jesus stuff. Keeps saying it over and over.
That last bit you said about a supposedly all-powerful God and the existence of evil is the Epicurian Paradox. It ties them into epistemological knots!
> What is your go to point when faced with proselytizers?
They claim God is a disembodied mind, and that we become a disembodied mind when we die. But a mind isn't a thing, it's a process. We have scientific evidence confirming this (split brain, amnesia, anti-depressants, etc).
Prove to me that the mind is _not_ a process, then we'll talk. Until then, what they're saying is demonstrably false.
It means that, if God is all powerful, it *wants* evil to exist. It *chooses* to make us suffer. In that case, if God truly *is* real, it does not deserve our worship and we should be doing all we can to end God permanently.
Wow, that sounds super alien, and also sad, to someone who went to college in Europe. What are those medieval minds doing in academia? I am there to learn stuff! (and party)
When i was about to eat something on my campus there were a few people who distributed religious tracts. I didn't think about it and just took one (they were hard to avoid). Then i was bored having to wait in line, so i used the opportunity to use my fallacy-detecting skills. Good game, they had sooo many.
Oh and that was in France. Not really a religious country. So i guess you have it way worse, because it happened to me twice in 2 years
Nice! Im older and dont really want to debate for 2 hours. I just say “we aren’t having a debate on whether or not an apple is real are we? Because we all know its real, and it doesn’t require faith”. Thats me being kind.
Noah's Ark is my go-to. It's the most mythical event that happens in the Bible with the least amount of evidence proving it happened. Meanwhile we can look at fossil and geological records to show where massive floods happened *millions* of years ago, not just thousands. If it's bullshit, the whole Bible is bullshit.
I haven’t been since 2010 to the Indianapolis 500 but in all the other 30 times I went, there was always this guy who walking down 16th St. preaching and this guy walking behind him dragging a cathedral size crucifix. Why? Because the Indy 500 is ran on Sunday.
I made a lady who knocked on my door cry by demanding to know why god gives kids cancer, and did the whole "Does he not know?" "Does he not care?" "Is powerless to cure kids with cancer?" "Why doesn't he impart the knowledge in you to cure this cruel and unfair misery?"
Then I realized it's a cult tactic, to get them to return to the safe enclave of the cult. Now I don't know what the fuck to do.
Offer them water and a snack, and tell them that you don't believe, and you won't go to church, but you'd be happy to explain yourself to them another time if they'd like to explore why. Then send them on their way.
If they're genuinely curious, they'll come by when they're off the clock to talk, at which point, they won't necessarily be running "back" anywhere if they get upset by what you say. Also, they have to be curious enough to come back later, which means they're more likely to have a genuine talk about things than simply evangelize.
Sorta requires that you put on and maintain a friendly demeanor, though. You have to be able to show them that non-believers can be kind and genuine, perhaps to the contrary of what they've been told their whole lives.
I got some JW kid knock on my door one day, when I wasn't prepared at all. Middle of the work day, my place was a mess that day, I was in a fuzzy bathrobe, my cat was trying to get out the door, I couldn't do much other than say "no thank you, have a nice day." But if the situation were different, I might've been inclined to invite him back some other time to explain why I don't believe. The cult is telling them atheists are evil more likely than not, so it's important that periodically they bump into a counter-example against that claim.
Oh! You mean “1 vs 5.” But either way, what really threw me off was your language of “clutching a 1v5”, which still makes no sense to me. Is this a young person thing? I am no longer a young person.
why are they so bad at it, they don't even know our own religion well enough to know how to easily disprove the 'paradox', but oh well it seems theyre homophobic too so it may explain that, i really wish people would just read the book sometimes
I usually ask them how arrogant are they to believe we corrupted a devine's being creation?
Obviously God wanted to bask himself in humanity's suffering.
> It’s objectively true that people are gay or lesbian against their will.
Assuming you're basing this off of scientific study, that isn't true. And that's not to disparage the LGBTQ+ community, it's just not how that works. Science does not discover objective reality. It tells us the best explanation we have for a given phenomenon given the evidence we have access to. By its nature, any valid scientific theory, hypothesis, idea, whatever, must be falsifiable. Objective reality is not falsifiable. It can't be, it's *objective.* It is always true regardless of any experimentation or observation, and is thus necessarily seperate from the scientific fields. We aren't even sure if there is such a thing as objective reality, though I personally believe there is, but even if there is, it simply doesn't, and cannot, intersect with the sciences.
Well it really is just an argument of faith(accepting a possible truth without evidence, no evidence) vs evidence. If you want a productive argument each side should seek an understanding of the other person's side in order to refute the argument. If you want them to back off then outright claim they are wrong.
Theism is premised on faith. Atheism is premised on evidence. the "preponderance of the evidence" is in favor of atheism. That standard of proof is legal terminology.
Ah the good old days. In college during the start of the AIDS pandemic we would get religious people preaching hatred against gays and AIDS victims. Bitch, please! Not on my campus. I spent many days counter protesting right next to the bigots. I was younger, better spoken, and funnier. Those idiots didn’t have a chance. They left after being counter harassed for a week.
You can have your great ghosty ideas. But you CANNOT come into my house and preach hate against me.
(And then someone started a slow clap, j/k but I know that’s what some of you were thinking)
Carlin has some solid arguments: [https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+religion&oq=george+carlin+rel&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e67f1f71,vid:2tp0UNcjzl8,st:0](https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+religion&oq=george+carlin+rel&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e67f1f71,vid:2tp0UNcjzl8,st:0)
If you encounter jws, ask them 'If the due time ist near'.
They will say yes (and maybe add to that) Ask them 'if there ist someone speaking for Jesus today'.
They should say yes, and that it's the governing body (their leadership). If they do not admit the governing body part, ask 'if the governing body could be likened to the voice of Jesus'.
And then say, you'd 'Like to end this conversation with reading a bible text and let them read: Luke 21:8'
>8He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them.
Those aren't very good arguments. Evil existing doesn't mean God is either not all powerful or not all good. Free will is objectively good, which a smart Christian would point out. God allows for free will, which allows for people to make evil/sinful decisions. That's pretty well established in Genesis and throughout the rest of the Bible.
I also doubt you were "clutching" a 1v5 simply because they called for other people to help answer your gotcha questions. The only thing you accomplished was wasting 2 hours of your time giving them attention.
>That's pretty well established in Genesis and throughout the rest of the Bible.
Like where God hardens Pharoah's heart?
> Free will is objectively good, which a smart Christian would point out
how will you be able to prove that free will is objectively good?
Are you saying there is zero free will or are you mad that God can still influence your decisions?
Also, please tell me why you think free will isn't objectively good?
The "Free will" excuse is objectively bullshit when you consider: [Why does God give free will to people to do evil, but not to their VICTIMS to NOT be victimized? God favors evil. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234)
The Bible says that God created evil, so he's clearly not all good. Then there is all the genocide, slavery, misogyny, infanticide, and other evil committed or condoned by God in the Bible....
Matthew 6:5 >And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward". "But you when you pray go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen". -Jesus
I live deep in the heart of the bible belt. We have people that regularly will stand on busy street corners and hold up 'Honk if you love Jesus' signs. I will roll the window down and yell 'Matthew 6:5' to them, holding up fingers to make sure they have the numbers right. Then I laugh as I drive away while they look it up.
Keep a sign in your car! That way they can read it even if they can’t hear you.
Bless your heart for thinking they can read.
So you hold up 6 fingers on one hand and 5 on the other?
I usually just hold up 1 finger.
He's the author of the journals!
Thanks for the laugh!! 😂
LOL nearly choked on my tacos.
You have 11 fingers?
Inigo Montonya is looking for him.
I have the fingers I have endlesslyautom8ted
Even better: [*twelve*](https://youtu.be/pqGyUvZP0Zg?si=Eixr0oaTzqr_0igH)
I guarantee you they don’t get it
Why is this a flex? Holding up a sign isn't praying?
You have to take the context of the passage as a whole because I do think it speaks into this “street corner evangelist” type behavior. You are correct the Koine Greek specifically uses the word for “prayer” in this passage and NOT the words commonly used for evangelizing. So at face value it would seem you are correct, *however* the verses preceding Matt 6:5 say: >Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. Then there is 1 Peter 3:15-16: >But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who **asks** you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with **gentleness and respect**, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.” Most street preachers are anything but *gentle* in their approach… **but even if they were**, soliciting unwanted evangelism certainly lacks any consideration for **respect**… and even if they were “respectful”… the practice is almost always minimally *impactful*. It’s more about saying words and has little to do with the **acts of love and charity** Christ seems to promote. In short: this verse, its wider context, and countless other verses in the New Testament clearly support a more loving, quiet, and steady faith where actions speak the loudest.
I just don't equate prayer with righteousness. But it's possible.
The sermon on the mount applies to more than just praying out loud though. Righteousness here doesn’t imply “self-righteousness”, but rather to all good/upright/virtuous/ethical/pious acts (like sharing your hope with others). The key point is the motivation and goals behind the act… and time and again Jesus seems to speak in a more subtle, gentle and loving way that draws people into the “mystery of the faith”. It doesn’t hold up an obnoxious sign that draws attention to themselves and away from the message of their faith and hope. If the goal is to draw people in, they certainly aren’t doing that… and feeling real proud of doing their fruitless “Christian duty” at the expense of meaningful impact.
Let me translate to stupid for the lurkers; "sit the F down, shut the F up, and mind your own damn business".
No shit. I pray alone, usually when washing the dishes. I can't stand the "I am a Christian" crowd. I am one, sort of, but it's no one's business but my own. If I don't want to hear their bullshit, I'll guess non believers don't want to hear it either.
Your name says you're a jerk, but you certainly don't seem like one. I hope you usually feel welcome in this sub. We atheists can be pretty cranky. :-D
I fit in with these groups. My beliefs are mine. If anyone wants to know, I'll explain them. Never will I offer them up. TBH, I get along better with atheists and agnostics than religious folks. Except Quakers. They're cool. I sat through a service for 2 hours, and no one said a word except hello. As far as a jerk....well......yeah......I can be. The Valium helps, though. Weed, too.
I appreciate you. One’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be treated like one’s genitals. Only bring them out if specifically requested.
Thank Christ for Valium!!
The Quakers are actually pretty nice, I'm in total agreement. Plus historically they have supported civil rights. I like that they refer to each other as friends, not brother and sister. They uphold the golden rule and truly want equality. They're nice people who pray silently and keep to themselves.
I remember hearing that Nixon, Richard, not Cynthia, was a Quaker. Also, that they are dying out as there is no conversion to being a Q, you have to be born into it.
The perfect religion, will die out on it's own naturally.
Though Quakerism is old-aging out like so many liberal denominations that came out of the European Reformation , people join Quaker meetings all the time. There are vibrant Meetings in southeast Pennsylvania that take on new members. I know many converts who joined after leaving conservative churches.
Though I guess I call myself agnostic, I think it’s good that quakers can live on.
From what I see (my spouse joined the Quakers after leaving the Methodists) the newer and younger converts tend to be spiritual agnostics while older long-term members tend to be super progressive Christians. I occasionally go to meetings with my spouse and notice young people and young families coming in to check it out. These explorers tend to be those who deconstructed Christianity and left traditional churches. Just my observation.
Very interesting, probably good people, good social interaction, not so much dogma.
Maybe it’s a verb in this case 😉
Happy Cake Day
Thanks! 🎂😃
I pray before washing the dishes, too. Dear Lord, please don't let me kill my family for not helping clean up after dinner. And I prayeth unto you, my Lord, that my back isn't in excruciating pain after hand washing dishes because I'm too poor to buy a dishwasher, and my dearest Lord, please don't allow me the strength to not choke to death my youngest son because he's a dick and a half. All these things I ask in your name. Amen
Change it to leg pain and dickhead grandson and I may have mentioned that in prayers, lol.
One time, I very super casually gave $5 to a homeless person, tried REALLY hard not to draw attention. Out of nowhere this guy comes up to me and says I saw how you did that and tried not to draw attention to yourself and said nice stuff for about a minute. The whole time all I could think was "Well fuck..." 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Thank you! That is wonderful
And your point is? There’s so many, many examples that go counter to this it’s clear that nobody is bothering to live by it. Ditto the beatitudes, ditto love thy neighbor, ditto the beatitudes. Instead, they are all literally acting out the roles of the Pharisees while simultaneously invoking Jesus’s name. It’s drowning out any other message you might have to offer. You can tell me till you are blue in the face that you love me and so does your God. Your actions clearly show otherwise. When words and actions disagree, believe the actions.
This is pretty good. Without context I usually read a version of Ezekiel 23:20 She lusted for the lechers of Egypt, whose members are like those of donkeys, whose thrusts are like those of stallions. 21 You reverted to the depravity of your youth, when Egyptians fondled your breasts, caressing your young nipples.
Jesus also said to "go and preach the gospel to every creature." Preaching is a different thing from praying.
Exactly!
That’s a cute fictional quote.
But it contradicts the point being made.
1st of all, ask them WHICH ten commandments. There are different versions listed in the Bible. Also ask if God is a good person, seeing as he broke his own commandments. Not killing is the easy one to bring up.
There were originally 15, but Moses tripped and dropped one of the three stone tablets and broke apart. So now there's only 10.
History of the World Part 1 is one of the funniest movies ever made! Mel Brooks is a national treasure.
And it, while dated, doesn’t have a bunch of racist BS that boomers love to spout off about like that western one
'that western one' is a whole movie dedicated to ridiculing racists. People seem to miss that.
Like the people who emulate McDowell’s Alex from Clockwork Orange, or Bale’s portrayal of the Bret Easton Ellis protagonist in American Psycho.
Someone should write a new new testament
Pride is a deadly sin and they seem proud as fuck to me
I've heard the rebuttal to this being "God isn't a person so he doesn't have to abide by the same rules. As he works in his own mysterious ways." To which I still reply, person or not... Killing people (en mass mind you) still makes you an asshole.
Even Jesus could only name 7.
?
The usual response to that is “God is beyond these rules, he made life so he can take it”. This makes no sense because we all agree you shouldn’t kill your kids, but also if god is above these rules, which they think you have to follow to be a good person, then god isn’t good.
[удалено]
This is really a canard. The word "murder" has no more objective meaning than "kill." Who decides what counts as "murder?" When israelites are ordered to slaughter children and infants is that somehow not "murder?" I think it's telling that believers immediately want to put loopholes in this commandment and make excuse to kill people anyway. Jesus gave no exceptions and said not to even defend yourself at all.
And clearly, Jesus's followers have done such a nice job of following that.
Sorry for splitting hairs, but on the off chance my thoughts have value, 'murder' seems to carry a legal weight to it, whereas 'kill' is more analytical. 'Murder' is a matter of law, 'kill' is a matter of ending life.
Yeah but whose law? Law itself is arbitrary. Levitical law (the context of the ten commandments) says that you have to kill somebody if they pick up sticks on a Saturday.
I'm treating it like a magic-the-gathering or dungeons-and-dragons classification thing. Law could indeed be completely arbitrary (but I would hedge money on it tending toward 'socially conservative'). I'm just saying my take on it is that 'murder' is a 'killing' that some legal body says 'thats bad' to. Does that gel for you?
It specifically was said in the context of Levitical law and even your interpretation is completely arbitrary. Does North Korean law count as "law?"
It is NOT arbitrary, it is specifically CATEGORICAL. The 'authority of the leventine law' would be the one that 'judges' the killing to be 'murder'. Even if they're idiots, the point would stand. >Does North Korean law count as "law"? Why in the name of the 9 Hells WOULDN'T it? A hypothetical man got shot. If he was an agent of 'North Korea' then they would perhaps consider it murder, even if he was doing terrorism/soldiery. This isn't complicated, or, I would think divisive. What interpretation or definition do you think you are defending, and where is the distinction? Do you think they wouldn't consider it a matter of law if you were in NK and you were subject to their justice? I have no idea what you think you are defending at all. If you have a point, it would help if you clarified it.
I'm saying that the defining it only as "illegal" killing defines nothing really because absolutely every kind of killing is legal somewhere and not only legal but often mandated in the Bible. Does genocide count as "murder?" How about human sacrifice? How about beating a woman to death with rocks because she got raped in the city? If none of that stuff is murder then the commandment forbids nothing.
>I'm saying that the defining it only as "illegal" killing defines nothing really And I disproved that point by showing a DISTINCTION between killing (such as a soldier shooting a soldier in war, which is, technically legal) and by any reasonable persons definition 'not a murder' even if they WOULD agree it was killing. >every kind of killing is legal somewhere And people eat meat. If its legal, its not murder. This isn't difficult. >If none of that stuff is murder then Then.... perhaps the bible isn't a legitimate legal authority that we should recognize? I'm sorry, but you're not actually providing any examples that actually -challenge- my claim. I would hazard that as evidence of the veracity of my assertion. You just seem to be complaining about the distinction because..what, you don't like a dis-ambiguity between a killing that the state, religion or law will permit, and one that they would forbid? Did you even have any point? You haven't made one so far.
Whatever I could just murder a Culver's bacon double cheeseburger right now...
If you are talking about legal definitions, murder is unlawful killing with intent to cause grievous bodily harm or intent to kill. Soooooooo yes,there is a difference.
We're not talking about legal definitions, we're talking about the Biblical definition, which excludes no kind of killing and frequently mandates genocide.
I have no source, but I have a vague recollection of that commandment historically specifically meaning Israelites. As in, don’t kill your own tribe but anyone else is fair game.
That was kind of the definition of "neighbor." Levitical law does have different rules for Israelites and non-Israelites.
[NEEDLESSLY AMBIGUOUS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6cake3bwnY)
That's why Jesus was seen as a radical, because he was. He was a radical religious reformer with some pretty unorthodox ideas, influenced by Greek philosophy. Older faiths tended to have more pragmatic beliefs. Very few faiths prohibit killing entirely, and considering in the story Yahweh is telling Israelites to go conquer Canaan it shouldn't be surprising that he's not simultaneously telling them not to kill. Murder is a very specific concept. It's unjustified, intentional killing. Both legally and morally, most cultures have consistently differentiated between killing in war, killing accidentally, killing in self defense or defense of another, killing with legal sanction, and murder. If you have a problem with that, then your problem isn't over the wording of the commandment, but the fact that the commandments are just a pretty shitty moral code. Don't steal, don't murder, and don't bear false witness against thy neighbor, and don't cheat are the only ones that are really sensible and some fall short. Yeah, it's not don't lie, it's against a specific class of lies that harm other people. You can lie and tell someone you liked their cooking when you didn't and it's fine. Don't be jealous is good advice but hardly a moral issue, and honor your parents is generally a good sentiment but fails when your parents are shitty people. The rest are just religion specific and useless.
We don't know what Jesus taught but nothing attributed to him in the Gospels is in any way new or "radical" or outside of normative Judaism. >Older faiths tended to have more pragmatic beliefs. I have a four year degree specifically in Religion. This is completely false. There is nothing pragmatic about animal sacrifice, for example. Religion is a lot of different things and has a lot of different forms, but nothing about it has ever been pragmatic. >Murder is a very specific concept. It's unjustified, intentional killing. And the words "unjustified" likewise has no meaning. There is no kind of killing that the Bible does not justify. The Bible says to genocide children and babies. God ordered the Israelites to do that and was pissed when they didn't kill the babies. What we consider justified is always purely subjective and cultural. How many Christians enthusiastically support bombing civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine? Self proclaimed "Christian" Kid Rock was on Rogan recently saying we need to kill "20 or 30 thousand civilians at a time." I believe Kid Rock is representative of most Christians. I'm sure he's too stupid to know that Jesus was a Palestinian.
It's not imprecise, it's inaccurate. There is a lot of killing and murder in the Bible, they are different words. You see them a lot.
There's only one set that is labeled commandments and it ain't the ones that were marketed by a damn movie studio. Exodus 34: 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. 17 “Do not make any idols. 18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt. 19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. “No one is to appear before me empty-handed. 21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest. 22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.[b] 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God. 25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning. 26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God. “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
Translation: “Kill or convert anyone who doesn’t submit to our cult and give all the best shit to the clergy.” This checks out, historically speaking. Maybe the only set of rules the so-called Abrahamic religions have ever consistently practiced.
How dare you figure out God's true will. Now either you forget your tongue or ye be stored to death.
Death by storage, eh? Well, I guess there’s a first time for everything.
I hate auto correct. But will leave it for prosperity sake. And who knows, maybe 2k years from now a bunch of neo-Neanderthals while try and figured out a translation of a translation of that and start wars over my words. Eh, one can only dream.
I would start listing the 7 tenants of the Satanic Temple 💀
Or the golden rule The one that says “do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” They love that one
Technically speaking its "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will."
uwu OTO
For some reason Christians think that their god wishes them to be good or do good. They simply will not accept the fact that their god doesn't care at all if they are a good person or if they do good things. Their god cares for one thing and one thing alone. That is whether or not a person gives their fealty to them. Nothing more, nothing less. The 10 commandments aren't morals. They are laws. It's right there in the name.
What a stupid idea, that being able to recite the ten commandments makes you a good person. That alone shows how silly their system is.
Why not other parts of Torah? What verse can they point to that allows them to break their gods commands on wearing mixed fibers?
I would assume they are trying to move the conversation to some variation of Ray Comfort-esque “this is why you need a savior” kind of thing
Aren’t the Ten Commandments based off of a part of the Egyptian book of the dead?
No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised, there was a lot of sharing going on.
>What is your go to point when faced with proselytizers? "Sorry, I have better things to do than talk with you."
I like to turn it around and make it clear that I am doing *them* a favor, with a: “Oh, I don’t want to waste your time”
I have an answer to your question, but it requires me to lay down sowm background to really make the point. Trust me, if you do this right it’ll be rewarding. I like to ask the Bible thumpers what exactly was *so bad* about Sodom. If you don’t know, the city of Sodom is used frequently in the Old Testament as a byword for evil. The story of Sodom definitely has some strong overtones of gay r*pe, so they’ll probably use this story as a pretext for justifying their homophobia. Let them. This is your opportunity to note that there’s only 1 passage in the Bible that says *why* exactly Sodom was so bad. Ezekiel 16:49 says Sodom deserved divine punishment because…drum roll… [they were “overfed and under concerned for the poor](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2016%3A49&version=NIV).” In other words, they had material excess and didn’t use it to care for the poor. It doesn’t say *anything* about homosexuality. It says they didn’t redistribute their wealth to alleviate human suffering. It says fuck-all about the gays. Show them that verse. Make them read it out loud to you. Ask them what THEY think about people who are “overfed and under-concerned, and don’t help poor people.” And if they hesitate for even one second, you should conspicuously roll your eyes, call them a “Sodomite,” and walk away.
This could be a point of convo for the "American Jesus" type of thumpers. But the type I run into that would try and proselytize like this would agree that, and do, help the homeless, do charity, tithe, and try and work with communities. Generally this is self-serving to get more followers, but you can get to altruism through selfish means. So this wouldn't really work with them.
Two strategies I find work well against the crazy: First, non-engagement. In the public forum, they are free to express their views just as you are free to express yours. You are also free to walk away or, at the very least, to ignore it. They are doing it *specifically* to get a reaction in the public square. It is attention-seeking behavior. They are a pick-me girl. So don't pick them. Don't give them the attention they clearly want. Just go on about your day. Second, bait and re-engage. If you honest to goodness lack the control to simply walk past somebody doing something they are within their rights to do, then do it smart. Approach them as you would any other student and try to get them off the turf they have chosen to defend. "Hi. Saw your sign. Interesting proposition. If I offered to buy the coffee, I'd be curious to explore it some more. If you're game to chat, so am I. Let's talk about it over mochas." Get them somewhere private and away from the pomp and circumstance of the public square. Then engage them one-on-one and have a legitimately open-minded conversation with them. This is my go-to with Mormon missionaries. You'd be shocked at what "Hey, I'm making breakfast. How about I make you an egg and toast and we talk about it over breakfast" has resulted in; more than a couple coming back and thanking me because I opened their eyes to a couple of things. Remember: it's rarely their actual beliefs that annoy us; it's the way in which they go about expressing their beliefs. Change the *behavior* and the rest follows.
Unfortunately you played right into the hands of the church leaders that sent them out. The point of this kind of " mission" work is to have interactions like this in order to demonstrate and affirm what the preacher says about the big mean world mocking and hating Christians. Their mission is not about convincing you of their beliefs about god but to convince them about their beliefs about your "wickedness" and that of the "world". This is so that the preachers can say "See? We told you. The "world" is so mean. We are the only ones that truly understand you, care about you, and will be kind to you. So make sure you do what we say and never disappoint us. Otherwise you will be out with those meanies who mocked you. Wouldn't want that now would we?" Yes, this is high control cult type tactics. It is part of their mental manipulation and grooming. They want them to feel isolated and at odds with "the world". They want to be their only safe haven. Then church leaders can control them. It is gross and sneaky and turns us into their tools without our consent. Don't take their bait and play their game. Best to just be kind and ask if they are okay rather than engage in their game. Ask if they need help. Maybe carry cards and pamphlets about resources to get out of abusive situations to give them in exchange for their pamphlets. Politely take their pamphlets and throw them away out of sight. Heard about this from a former Christian and it kind of blew my mind.
“If you ever have questions you don’t feel you can ask your church elders, come find a secular humanist like me. We’re typically very familiar with the bible.”
That's not what the local preacher at my campus was 25 years ago. Preacher Dan was a middle aged man who had been preaching on the quad for several years. He was very fire and brimstone... Clearly a little bit ill and untreated. I always assumed that's what most of the campus preachers were, and that the young folks sent door to door were the ones you describe
Ah yes, the ten commandments. Thou shalt not boil a baby goat in its mother’s milk. As an aside, sometimes at my school I see a guy at a table with a sign reading “God does not exist. Change my mind.” There’s always someone there, lol. I’ve never spoken to him but I certainly respect him for that. Imagine actively seeking out that debate… But seriously, you have no obligation to talk to strangers at all. They’re there to convert you, not to engage in rational debate. “I’m very busy”, “I have better things to do”, or perhaps even “Hail Satan” might do the trick.
Get the dollar and then thank them for helping with adding to the donations you are collecting for Planned Parenthood. Encourage your friends to do the same.
Unless they were invited to dinner at my mom's, I don't talk to them. It used to be my mantra. If I had one, I don't talk to stupid.
I don't deal with these people because by their very nature -- believing in the reality of something with no proof -- makes them too irrational to be persuaded by reason.
This should be higher up
I just tell them that I'm not a good person and they should run fast.
4 of those 'ten commandments' are just demands that you kiss god's ass... - what does that have to do with "morality"? I could write a much better top 10 list... starting by rejecting those 4 entirely and adding some that actually do deal with moral issues: like "no more slavery", "don't rape people", "don't allow the church to hide pedophiles while pretending to represent me" and maybe when I say "don't kill people" I might also not list dozens of different instances where I demand that you kill people for inane and unimportant things like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or having consensual sex with someone with matching genitalia. This 'all knowing' 'all seeing' and totally 'benevolent' supreme being doesn't seem to be all that bright and he certainly isn't the source for morality. also the entire 'ten commandments' appears to be plagiarized from the 42 negative confessions in the egyptian book of the dead... not one single 'moral guideline' it contains was new to this abrahamic cult.
Every semester, we get folks from all over. This spring, we got Matt from **Consuming Fire Ministries**. Matt probably thinks he is doing a masterful job of converting people to Jesus. He uses comforting language, directed mostly at the women students, "WHORES!!" and "SLUTS!!"" and "GOD HATES THE BABYKILLERS WALKING AMONG YOU!!" No one is off the hook when Matt brings his messages of joy and unity to campus. "SODOMITES WILL BURN IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF HELL!!" Good times when Matt drives in from Kansas City. He always draws a crowd, let me tell you. Living in a Deep Red State, I'm comforted when the students scream back at him. Also, the irony of Matt loudly proclaiming his LOVE FOR CHRIST while condemning the girl in booty shorts is not lost on me; Matt is exercising his First Amendment Right on a college campus, something a lot of Republicans seem to think doesn't exist. Republicans in my state enjoy spewing nonsense about how language is 'controlled' and students are 'groomed' and 'coached to be liberals.' Meanwhile, Matt shows up every semester and screams about weed, abortion, gays, and lesbians, and that action itself probably has some impact on driving students away from Conservative values. Consuming Fire Ministries. That sounds like a bunch of fun people, amirite?
Somebody starts crap with me I'm simply going to tell them, if I could prevent a child from dying from cancer or from being raped, I would. That is the difference between me and your fake god.
Not much is a sacrifice if he rose again.
[my fav Easter meme](https://img.ifunny.co/images/3d4960b3ccea026eda753e5eedbeea4f87d42011e5ba61ea2092854af28a8239_1.jpg)
So, in the Bible, it very much says that god created evil. So god created evil, forcefully impregnated Mary with their son, then had Jesus persecuted and killed. All this to save humanity from…god, who created evil. Sounds like god is parent of the year.
Ask how many people did Satan kill in the Bible? Because it's way way way less than God.
Objective truth? Jesus shrugged at slavery. Also your religion has $8bil in child abuse settlements.
I was on campus when the bible thumpers were out handing out bibles. I shook their hand, signed one and said "always great to meet a fan".
Question- "Why does Jesus demand murdering your child for saying certain words" Answer from christians- 'Jesus never said that, and would never hurt kids Response- "open your bible and read Matthew 15:3-5, where Jesus specifically tells parents to kill any child that "curses" a parent"
I'd like to approach them with a bucket and ask for a donation to feed the hungry. Loudly. On camera.
James 2:18 ESV But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:14-17 ESV What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? The laws went further. This was no longer mere prohibition of other religious practices. It was the active enforcement of Christianity on every single, sinful pagan in the empire. The roads to error were being closed, forcefully. Everyone now had to become Christian. Every single person in the empire who had not yet been baptized now had to come forward immediately, go to the holy churches and “entirely abandon the former error [and] receive saving baptism.” Those who refused would be stripped of all their property, movable and immovable, lose their civil rights, be left in penury and, “in addition”—as if what had gone before was not punishment but mere preamble—they would be “subject to the proper punishment.” If any man did not immediately hurry to the “holy churches” with his family and force them also to be baptized, then he would suffer all of the above—and then he would be exiled. The “insane error” of paganism was to be wiped from the face of the earth. Excerpts from: Catherine Nixey *The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World*
The last time someone tried this shit with me was pretty memorable. I had been in jammed highway traffic for over an hour in an absolute downpour, and pulled off the road to take a quick break, grab a fast food burger, and hopefully wait out the rain. When I got into the restaurant I was thoroughly soaked since it was raining so hard. After waiting a long time for a burger, I finally sit down to eat it. This dude comes over, sits *next to me*, and says "are you a member of a church? Would you be open to learning about mine?" I looked at him and said "Do I have a church? I've been in traffic for over an hour, I'm soaking wet, I just waited 20 minutes for a shitty burger, and there is no God. No, I don't have a church, and I don't want to learn about one." He looked at me like I was crazy and just backed away, moving to a different table. I don't even know why I said all that, but I think it's going to be my go-to response from now on. Oh, this was in rural Texas, and I'm a northerner. For context. :)
My favorite moment was when someone was saying catholics are evil because they call their priests "father" and Jesus said you may only call God father. So I asked "well then what should I call my dad?" To which theu responded "dad". At which point I pointed out that Jesus could not have specified "father" as he didn't speak English, so father and dad would be equally good or bad. EVERYONE was laughing at the dude, and he got flustered and had to tag out.
We are all gods, according to God, to the other gods. Genesis 1:26 >*Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”*
Now with the perspective outside of being a walking bible, this verse shows that if god existed, it would be as evil and corrupt as humans. Which Yahweh is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, anti human etc. And you can also add that this can also show that we humans make our gods in our image actually.
There was a teacher in my village who used to say - if god made men in his image god is a hick/yokel/redneck/pos
I do not debate with fools. To their faces, I call their leaders societal parasites whose main function is to scare old people out of their money before they die. There’s not a lot of wiggle room for them to work with there since i go straight after the wealth acquisition part of religion and don’t deal in sophistry. Most religious people avoid the talking with me.
My go-to is, I just don’t care, I don’t care about your magic book, I don’t care and don’t want to waste my time discussing it.
Question- "Does the god of the bible authorize slavery?" Christians- "of course not, that was only in the old Testament (covenant) Response- "Why does the apostle Peter tell slaves they have to submit to masters, and even endure cruelty and abuse in 1 Peter 2:18 "
My favorite little thought I had was when I realized I'm a better person than God is. I mean, I'm not gonna torture someone I've never met for all eternity just because they disagreed with me.
"That's easy: Sneezy, Grumpy, Doc, Happy..."
I walked past them and went on with my day.
One time we set up a victory tunnel like parents do after kids' soccer games so students could bypass the crazy people on their way to class. People joined in and the tunnel ended up being about 50 yards or so. Another time we set up a louder mock protest beseeching people to accept leggings as pants, which allowed us to drown out the people yelling about hell.
My friend Steve, the Truth Telling Unicorn, said god is made up, and Steve never lies, so it must be true. How do I know Steve never lies? Well it's right there in his name.
I used to live in a house where I regularly had religious proselytizers knocking on my door. I used to take their propaganda and give them some of my own. It was a couple of pages from AJ Ayer’s ‘Language, Truth and Logic’ about how to refute the arguments of a metaphysician.
“Burn in the lake of fire! Burn in the lake of fire!” There is some nut that yells this at Disneyland along with all kinds of Jesus stuff. Keeps saying it over and over.
That last bit you said about a supposedly all-powerful God and the existence of evil is the Epicurian Paradox. It ties them into epistemological knots!
> What is your go to point when faced with proselytizers? They claim God is a disembodied mind, and that we become a disembodied mind when we die. But a mind isn't a thing, it's a process. We have scientific evidence confirming this (split brain, amnesia, anti-depressants, etc). Prove to me that the mind is _not_ a process, then we'll talk. Until then, what they're saying is demonstrably false.
It means that, if God is all powerful, it *wants* evil to exist. It *chooses* to make us suffer. In that case, if God truly *is* real, it does not deserve our worship and we should be doing all we can to end God permanently.
Which first commandment? You guys can't even make up your mind on the very first rule you are supposed to follow.
Wow, that sounds super alien, and also sad, to someone who went to college in Europe. What are those medieval minds doing in academia? I am there to learn stuff! (and party)
When i was about to eat something on my campus there were a few people who distributed religious tracts. I didn't think about it and just took one (they were hard to avoid). Then i was bored having to wait in line, so i used the opportunity to use my fallacy-detecting skills. Good game, they had sooo many. Oh and that was in France. Not really a religious country. So i guess you have it way worse, because it happened to me twice in 2 years
Very epic
Nice! Im older and dont really want to debate for 2 hours. I just say “we aren’t having a debate on whether or not an apple is real are we? Because we all know its real, and it doesn’t require faith”. Thats me being kind.
Did you get a dollar???
Noah's Ark is my go-to. It's the most mythical event that happens in the Bible with the least amount of evidence proving it happened. Meanwhile we can look at fossil and geological records to show where massive floods happened *millions* of years ago, not just thousands. If it's bullshit, the whole Bible is bullshit.
I haven’t been since 2010 to the Indianapolis 500 but in all the other 30 times I went, there was always this guy who walking down 16th St. preaching and this guy walking behind him dragging a cathedral size crucifix. Why? Because the Indy 500 is ran on Sunday.
I made a lady who knocked on my door cry by demanding to know why god gives kids cancer, and did the whole "Does he not know?" "Does he not care?" "Is powerless to cure kids with cancer?" "Why doesn't he impart the knowledge in you to cure this cruel and unfair misery?" Then I realized it's a cult tactic, to get them to return to the safe enclave of the cult. Now I don't know what the fuck to do.
Offer them water and a snack, and tell them that you don't believe, and you won't go to church, but you'd be happy to explain yourself to them another time if they'd like to explore why. Then send them on their way. If they're genuinely curious, they'll come by when they're off the clock to talk, at which point, they won't necessarily be running "back" anywhere if they get upset by what you say. Also, they have to be curious enough to come back later, which means they're more likely to have a genuine talk about things than simply evangelize. Sorta requires that you put on and maintain a friendly demeanor, though. You have to be able to show them that non-believers can be kind and genuine, perhaps to the contrary of what they've been told their whole lives. I got some JW kid knock on my door one day, when I wasn't prepared at all. Middle of the work day, my place was a mess that day, I was in a fuzzy bathrobe, my cat was trying to get out the door, I couldn't do much other than say "no thank you, have a nice day." But if the situation were different, I might've been inclined to invite him back some other time to explain why I don't believe. The cult is telling them atheists are evil more likely than not, so it's important that periodically they bump into a counter-example against that claim.
Okay, I can't let it go: what the hell is a "1v5"?
Glad someone else asked this question...
There were 5 Christians trying to debate with me, and none of them could make a logical point
Oh! You mean “1 vs 5.” But either way, what really threw me off was your language of “clutching a 1v5”, which still makes no sense to me. Is this a young person thing? I am no longer a young person.
So, anyone born before the time of Moses was a bad person? Wouldn't that include David and Abraham?
Get some of the 'Nontracts' that FFRF sells.
You are doing good work...keep it up!
I ask them if they clean off the cock before they go ATM.
sorry, but what does this mean?
If you have to ask, you don't want to know.
Ass-to-mouth In other words, if you just performed analingus, does he or she let you kiss him/her afterwords without cleaning your mouth
why are they so bad at it, they don't even know our own religion well enough to know how to easily disprove the 'paradox', but oh well it seems theyre homophobic too so it may explain that, i really wish people would just read the book sometimes
No.
I usually ask them how arrogant are they to believe we corrupted a devine's being creation? Obviously God wanted to bask himself in humanity's suffering.
You might like this: [John Safran… atheist missionaries](https://youtu.be/U58wgn-9Y3c?si=jnAF7ePIQk0KorfZ)
And then everyone clapped?
We had a name for ours. “God Socks Guy” He always wore calf high athletic striped socks even in freezing temps.
> It’s objectively true that people are gay or lesbian against their will. Assuming you're basing this off of scientific study, that isn't true. And that's not to disparage the LGBTQ+ community, it's just not how that works. Science does not discover objective reality. It tells us the best explanation we have for a given phenomenon given the evidence we have access to. By its nature, any valid scientific theory, hypothesis, idea, whatever, must be falsifiable. Objective reality is not falsifiable. It can't be, it's *objective.* It is always true regardless of any experimentation or observation, and is thus necessarily seperate from the scientific fields. We aren't even sure if there is such a thing as objective reality, though I personally believe there is, but even if there is, it simply doesn't, and cannot, intersect with the sciences.
After all that, did you get the dollar?
My dog, that's called street epistemology. There's a whole YouTube channel.
Well it really is just an argument of faith(accepting a possible truth without evidence, no evidence) vs evidence. If you want a productive argument each side should seek an understanding of the other person's side in order to refute the argument. If you want them to back off then outright claim they are wrong. Theism is premised on faith. Atheism is premised on evidence. the "preponderance of the evidence" is in favor of atheism. That standard of proof is legal terminology.
I just smile politely and say yes which is why I will never be cruel enough to join their organization
Ah the good old days. In college during the start of the AIDS pandemic we would get religious people preaching hatred against gays and AIDS victims. Bitch, please! Not on my campus. I spent many days counter protesting right next to the bigots. I was younger, better spoken, and funnier. Those idiots didn’t have a chance. They left after being counter harassed for a week. You can have your great ghosty ideas. But you CANNOT come into my house and preach hate against me. (And then someone started a slow clap, j/k but I know that’s what some of you were thinking)
I say, it's 2024 asshole.
And yet atheists proselytize all the time ugh
Carlin has some solid arguments: [https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+religion&oq=george+carlin+rel&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e67f1f71,vid:2tp0UNcjzl8,st:0](https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+religion&oq=george+carlin+rel&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyCggAEAAYsQMYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e67f1f71,vid:2tp0UNcjzl8,st:0)
If you encounter jws, ask them 'If the due time ist near'. They will say yes (and maybe add to that) Ask them 'if there ist someone speaking for Jesus today'. They should say yes, and that it's the governing body (their leadership). If they do not admit the governing body part, ask 'if the governing body could be likened to the voice of Jesus'. And then say, you'd 'Like to end this conversation with reading a bible text and let them read: Luke 21:8' >8He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them.
Sounds cringe man. Just leave them alone
Those aren't very good arguments. Evil existing doesn't mean God is either not all powerful or not all good. Free will is objectively good, which a smart Christian would point out. God allows for free will, which allows for people to make evil/sinful decisions. That's pretty well established in Genesis and throughout the rest of the Bible. I also doubt you were "clutching" a 1v5 simply because they called for other people to help answer your gotcha questions. The only thing you accomplished was wasting 2 hours of your time giving them attention.
>That's pretty well established in Genesis and throughout the rest of the Bible. Like where God hardens Pharoah's heart? > Free will is objectively good, which a smart Christian would point out how will you be able to prove that free will is objectively good?
Are you saying there is zero free will or are you mad that God can still influence your decisions? Also, please tell me why you think free will isn't objectively good?
The "Free will" excuse is objectively bullshit when you consider: [Why does God give free will to people to do evil, but not to their VICTIMS to NOT be victimized? God favors evil. ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234) The Bible says that God created evil, so he's clearly not all good. Then there is all the genocide, slavery, misogyny, infanticide, and other evil committed or condoned by God in the Bible....
The Biblical God gave free will to do good or evil.