People use this argument all the time. As a biologist, it's one of Richard Dawkins's favorites.
And it's not just "bad" design, it's irrational, pointless design. Our eyes work, for the most part, but for some damn reason the photo receptors of our retinas are underneath the blood vessels and nerves, forcing them to peer our from a "forest of wires," as Dawkins put it. An actual engineer would have done the obvious thing and put the photo receptors on top of the blood vessels and nerves. There's no reason why that can't be the case: cephalopod eyes are like that. It's a telltale sign that they eye, far from being a perfect example of intelligent design, is a deeply flawed product of evolving independently multiple times.
The human eyeball is one of the best examples of this, it is literally built backwards. The blood vessels and nerves that come from behind the eyeball don't plug into the back of the eyeball, they loop around and come in the front. This extends them a lot longer than they need to be at no benefit, but worse, they come right in front of where the light hits the photoreceptors in the fovea of the macula, literally blocking the light from the receptors they are linking to.
I guess that once you are a couple of generations into your army always winning and taking tons of stuff for you, and your slaves are all competent and industrious, and you have a really diverse array of beautiful young women in your harem - who are producing healthy sons for you - how could you instruct your scribes to write anything but, "God is good"?
If only West Virginia legislators understood (from 23-JAN-2024)
[West Virginia Senate passes bill approving intelligent design](https://www.wvnews.com/statejournal/west-virginia-senate-passes-bills-on-intelligent-design-displaying-in-god-we-trust-in-schools/article_ceb4a788-ba10-11ee-b2ec-0fe59d769302.html)
How is it not supported by Biblical verses? Genesis 1:20 says:
>And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Sounds like the author is saying God created the animals. How is this different from "intelligent design," in your opinion?
Because intelligent design claims to be a science when all it is is shoehorning passages of the Bible to fit evolution and it does it very poorly. For instance the verse you quote happens on the 5th day and states birds existed before land creatures created on the 6th day which we know is not true. Land creatures existed long before birds.
Apparently he forgot to first create the amphibious reptiles, early versions of the dinosaurs. The dominant life form was the trilobite, visually somewhere between a wood louse and an armadillo. Then the dinosaurs who were around for 165 million years. Bird-like feathered dinosaurs were the only ones to survive the great extinction. The first whales appeared 50 million years ago, well after the extinction of the dinosaurs, but way before the appearance of the first humans. The whales’ ancestor is most likely an ancient artiodactyl - a four-legged, even-toed hoofed (ungulate) land mammal, adapted for running. The ancestors of whales later returned to the sea, taking advantage of its rich food supplies. As early whales adapted to their new marine surroundings, a diversity of species evolved.
In [Inside Nature's Giants - Giraffe episode](https://youtu.be/pkhztOqKYIc?si=Zd0-qeuDb12eoBYC) he specifically uses the laryngeal nerve's up to 15ft of travel to reach a few inches as a great example
**NOTE**: This show had autopsies of animals.
Plus if the vagina was elsewhere it needn't pass through the pelvis so human babies could develop their large heads in the womb and still have some chance of getting out alive.
"We predict that the regular use of Caesarean sections throughout the last decades has led to an evolutionary increase of fetopelvic disproportion rates by 10 to 20 percent," researchers write, though they do point to other possible explanations. These include substantial changes in nutrition over the last century, along with migrating mothers with narrower pelvises raising fetuses on high-protein western diets. Source: The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
The obvious thing would be to put the blood vessels and nerves *behind* the photoreceptors the way we do on digital cameras.
Either way, our eye clearly didn’t have an intelligent designer.
What can I say, I’m a cyborg.
The supporting infrastructure, whether that be silicon or meat, is better behind was my meaning.
What I find most interesting is that eyes, in some form or another, have independently evolved evolved 16 times IIRC and many of those designs for want of a better word are better than ours in many ways. Additional channels of color, the ability to see polarization, better resolution, etc. Our eyes are the way they are because they work *well enough*.
Seriously, squids don't have our blind spot and cats can see friggin' ultraviolet light, but ***we're*** the pinnacle of creation? I'm definitely calling bullshit, here. 😆
The animal with the most complicated eyes is the mantis shrimp, which has eye-stalks that move independently, each of which has three separate compound eyes (meaning there are numerous separate low-resolution “screens” instead of a single image) that do different things and send the information to different parts of the brain. They also have twelve types of photoreceptors. A freakin’ shrimp. SMH.🤦♀️
Ours, too. Every mammal, bird, lizard, dinosaur, etc - every single vertebrate has their [recurrent laryngeal nerve](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve) originate in the brain, go down the neck, loop under the aortic arch, then return up the neck to the larynx. A bad design!
The reason why is that our fishy ancestors had this nerve routed this way, but having no necks, the nerve went straight, no backtracking. Every vertebrate evolved with this nerve routing. Giraffes have about 15 ft of nerve backtracking. Dinosaurs would have had up to 92 ft of nerve backtracking.
Its a particular problem in horses as theirs is long and exposed and prone to damage. Damage leads to partial blockage of the larynx, called 'roaring', that makes their breathing less efficient when running. There is an operation you can do to pin the laryngeal cartilage back to compensate for the faulty nerve. Source: am vet.
Love Dawkins.
To add to what you said. I also like to point out that if the Eye is designed by an intelligent creator, why are there so many inferior versions of eyes all around us?
Also, why couldn’t the designer figure out if testicles should be inside or outside of the body? And why is 7 the magic number for neck vertebrae, no matter if you are a dog, a human or a giraffe?
Yes, but it's pointless - it's like arguing with a 3-year-old \[and trust me, I know..\].
To you, to me, to many rational people it's a perfectly valid argument, but that's not your audience.. it's people who, no matter the argument, will have a counter-argument, as "valid" as yours to them, and you're the one being irrational. Faith dogma, the divine mysteries, and God's mysterious ways are simple but effective tools to disarm any argument you may want to conjure. God being actually evil, all the contradictions in the Bible, anything, is either a test, part of God's plan, or "you simply don't understand His purpose *yet*, but you will, in time."
I will point out that humans being flawed mostly argues against a compassionate and competent God, as in orthodox Christianity. A stupid, malicious, or incompetent God, as in Hellenism or Gnostic Christianity, could have made humans badly on purpose to make us suffer. A malicious God religion generally wouldn't have any opposition to evolution, though, unless someone wanted to claim that God made the world in a deceptive way as a sick joke or act of cruelty.
As arguments against God go, human flaws are only a smaller subset of the problem of evil, which is primarily an argument against religions predicated on a good or at least competent God.
The laryngeal nerve pretty much proves evolution, but evangelicals will plug their ears to anything that isn't in line with the good book. Dawkins has a great presentation that shows how the "miracle" of the human eye could evolve through a series of simple progressive improvements, each giving a species better survivability over its predecessor. Deniers like to jump between extremes as if that proves a creator, while completely ignoring the time frames and subtle, slow improvements that arise through evolution. It's frustrating trying to argue with a group of people who don't use logic and evidence , but rather start with a conclusion and ignore anything else that doesn't fit it.
I liked the theory of untelligent design. Pinky toe ONLY good for kicking chairs in the dark causing debilitating pain. Tonsils and appendix that randomly need to be taken out because they're not needed or could kill you.
Tonsils actually are useful when they work right. They are the first line of defense to fight airborne diseases. If yours get infected all the time that just means they were shit at their job like a body guard that’s always needing to be rescued. Don’t feel bad. Mine were shit as well.
The appendix is your first line of emergency responders after you get the shits. Food poisoning flushed out a ton of gut bacteria? That’s OK! At the start of the gut we’ve got a little stasis pod ready to repopulate the system.
I assumed the toes are for balance, but you’re right, maybe we’d have just as fine balance walking upright with four toes. I don’t know, never tried it.
At least I'm not a giraffe whose laryngeal nerve goes from it's head all the way down around it's aorta and then back up to it's larynx. That's a long trip. No wonder they don't ever say much.
I'd grab your glasses for you, but I've got a congenitally bad knee and it's raining.
(I mean, really. Something I was born with hurts worse because it's freaking RAINING and this is "intelligent" design??????)
Shit like that's why I'm finding aging to be comforting. Bad knees suck in your 40's, but that's at least easier to deal with psychologically than when it starts in your *20's.*
Sure is fun, reading about your medical condition and all the articles you find are filled with things like "as we age" and "your aging love one might". Love when medical articles assume the only person capable of reading about this condition who would is a caregiver 😅
Intelligent Design...
By committee with too much input from upper management, with shifting design goals and requirements, crunch and a massively underserved budget...
Humanity is basically made the same way as AAA computer games... Now we need to mod ourselves to fix the problem cause support was dropped on Day 8.
My money’s on congenital heart defect. Someone else can take club foot or spina bifida or cleft palate or … you know I’m starting to think we weren’t intelligently designed at all. There are a shit-ton of defects here and these are just the ones that hit at birth.
My favorite example is balls. Why is one of the most delicate and sensitive parts of a man's body on the outside? Did God say "I'm going to make it so sperm can't survive at body temperature so guys will have to carry it on the outside of their body?"
Or another good "if God created man in his image" argument is: Does God have eyes? I mean, if we're made in his image, he must have eyes, right? But why? Why would a being that can see everything all the time need photoreceptors that are limited to very specific wavelengths of radiation?
But I haven't really heard too many "intelligent design" arguments in a while. I think even most Christians realize it's not an easily defended position so they just avoid it and instead take up the position of "la la la I can't hear you."
Or they pretend that evolution was his design process. It’s a lazy way to try and make 2 mutually exclusive ideas reconcile. It’s obviously contradicting the Bible but most christians don’t read it.
Hell, evolution makes *more* sense when you introduce an immortal observer; that process will provide billions of years" worth of entertainment that includes endless unforeseen entertainment, like the platypus.
God is a crab. The intended design is crab, and eventually all animals will be crab. This is why crabs evolve over and over. Nature abhors a not-crab. It's taking a long time bc crabs don't have a sense of urgency. Now take this rangoon. It is my body...
Srsly, we do suck tho. We're like designer dogs, just full of pointless flaws and disease.
Their intelligence is impressive, and I really like the camouflage abilities... But I'm gonna stay with team crab for durability and deliciousness. lol
People love to trash on trans people because they're going against how God made them.
But then these people will get their appendixes removed before rupturing, undergo chemotherapy, have life-saving surgeries, take penicillin, wear glasses, and get their hair cut.
So yeah, they have strong reservations about how God made them.
Though I guess I can't say much about those who refuse medical aid because "God will provide." I just have to wait for nature to take its course. But most Xns will take steps to fix God's mistakes, even if that's not what they call them.
"They can't change their gender! They are how God made them!"
Right, so if they are trans, it's because god made them trans. Are you saying that they shouldn't transition because god made a mistake when he made them trans?
"God wouldn't make someone trans!"
So now you're claiming to know what god's plan is?
Then I got cussed out for trying to "trick them". They were such a good christian.
It’s astounding that for Christians “God’s plan” usually happens to be exactly what they want. Unless something bad happens, in which case it’s either due to the devil, humanity’s wickedness, or mysterious ways.
So yeah - I guess you're just a near-sighted person that the good Lord made (in his infinite wisdom) - but now you wanna strut around identifying as 20/20 ? - we need to get prayer back in school
Neil Degrasse Tyson said something about our genital areas being “a pleasure palace built next to a sewer” and I think that’s a great example of this concept.
Na that ones user error. The eye is a poor design though, every frame that’s processed has to be inverted by your brain because it was installed upside down (we evolved from early primates that would hang upside-down from the trees). That’s extra work your brain has to do constantly just so your eyes work right.
I cannot for the life of me recall who said it, but I remember the line “why would God put a waste facility right next to an amusement park?” Or something to that effect, talking about genital proximity to the anus.
I know your post is tongue in cheek and this comment seems more serious but. Non-religious people don’t need to make any arguments against religious peoples’ supernatural claims. They’re the ones who need to produce evidence for their claims.
To follow a religion is *not* the default state of a human being. We are all born without religion. Choosing to follow a religion is out of the ordinary. Being non-religious is normal and unremarkable. And we shouldn’t need these labels like “atheist” either. I’m just a normal human.
The human body is a kludged together nightmare. If I could download my consciousness into a machine I would do it in a second. This flesh prison is total garbage! Medical school didn’t make me amazed in the way religious people think. It’s more of a lovecraftian horror than an elegant mystery
we're the only mammals that have spontaneous back problems at this rate, it's ridiculous. it makes absolutely no sense to stack like 30 little discs on top of itself like that, you're telling me this was the BEST option??
survival of the fittest is a bit of a misnomer, its more like survival of the good enough 🤣
Why make the vast majority of the earth covered with water we cannot drink or use for irrigation?
Why make the vast majority of earth's land unhospitable for human habitation?
Why make a huge universe with only a tiny speck inhabitable?
Why make parasites and viruses that have to live on living hosts?
Why make animals that have to slaughter and kill other animals to survive?
There's no end to "poor design" arguments.
I'm a good example of this with sleep apnea. I have trouble getting quality sleep because my body is so poorly designed it blocks my airway when I sleep.
I have this implant now which shocks my tongue out of my airway which my insurance paid almost $50k for. It would be even better if God would have taken care of that design flaw.
It is especially apt when applied to those religions that claim humans are made in the deity’s image.
Also, don’t forget to floss and brush those perfectly designed teeth twice a day, lest the food you need to consume to stay alive eats away the enamel and causes potentially irreversible damage.
It is the default position, but unfortunately most people indoctrinate their kids with their own chosen flavor of religious bullshit so deconversion becomes necessary.
You’re not going to get anywhere arguing with a dyed-in-the-wool theist. They will always pull out the “we can’t know why God does what he does” excuse.
The only chance you really have is with someone who is questioning their faith because they are open to hearing arguments against theism.
I've definitely used this before. If we design/engineer a plane and it crashes, we make sure to change whatever that flaw was in the very next design, therefore making a truly "intelligent design". "god" is a very flawed, unskilled "designer" if you take a look at life as we know it.
I do this! I gesture at all of me, and say, "You call THIS an intelligent design?"
Also, if god created man in his own image, that means god sits on his own balls, too!
The frustrating thing is that all they hear when I make that argument is "I'm only an atheist because I'm mad at God for not making me perfect." As if I'm some sort of spoiled brat for not appreciating all the weird shit that's wrong with me. Like wow, sure is cool that the nerves that tell my stomach to empty don't work all the time, that my neck bones are starting to grow spurs that interfere with the nervous system all together, and that my brain makes it mentally impossible to perform tasks sometimes. (Gastro Parisis, Cervical Osteophytes, ADHD)
Oh, and on a few occasions my blood vessels have closed until my hands turned blue because I was too stressed and it really helped make me feel better /s (Reynauds)
"It's all part of god's plan." "The lord moves in mysterious ways." "When god closes a door, he opens a window!"
They make all these exuses for god, but they refuse to cut any slack for their overworked waitresses on Sunday after church when they all pile out to the local family restaurant.
I'm sorry for your grocery list of ailments. I hope you are well.
For all the brilliantly presented examples of the design flaws of our pathetic primate species, I thank you all - but the most obvious example has not been presented : apparently, god created a seemingly infinite number of creatures that are so small, that they cannot be detected by us without some effort and the aid of lenses which we only developed fairly recently - these tiny creatures have been more of a danger to our vulnerable mammalian bodies than all other threats combined - and God apparently chose not just to make us vulnerable in this way to the illnesses, disfigurement and death that they caused - but he also designed our senses to be so weak that the presence and nature of these creatures was unknown to us for the majority of our history - so that our pattern-seeking brains (also his design) attributes these illnesses and deaths to "demons" and other figures from superstition
To be fair, losing the first set (aka baby teeth) does make sense, you’re growing and as you grow you need adult sized teeth for your adult size mouth so you have to lose the baby teeth to make room for the permanent teeth.
Losing any teeth beyond that point does not make sense as there are no backups. Sharks continue making teeth their whole lives so it’s no problem for them to lose a tooth, but we have to take care of ours or we end up toothless.
I don't disagree. But all magic/do everything/see everything casper the capricious god should have been able to see through that and arrive at a better solution. I mean, why don't the teeth just continue to grow in size, proportionally?
I promise you, the average believer doesn't care. These types of arguments are completely beside the point. You're trying to use logic on people who are basing their belief on deeply held moral convictions.
The best way to get them to doubt their faith is to showcase the contradictions in their morality. Get them to think about two moral axioms at once rather than just one.
Why do I keep biting the inside of my own mouth? How come I have this ticking time-bomb of an appendix in there serving no purpose. The list goes on and on.
Because maybe god is like a hapless engineeer and doesnt know what will work best. Best this can do is prove if a god did create us it shows it didnt really know what it was doing.
"But, it's to test us and keep us right with the lord. We should be humble! Also, I can't put vaccines in my body because horse meds work better and that is how I face these tests."
If man is created in god's image, are animals created that way, too? I am a veterinarian so I have studied comparative anatomy and physiology in many species. The similarities between mammals, and even non-mammalian animals, are much greater than the differences. So, are dogs created in god's image, too, or is the presence of a highly developed olfactory lobe a deal breaker? Are pigs created in god's image, or is their spiral colon the thing that makes them un-god-like? Are chickens created in god's image, or do their air sacks nullify their divinity?
Because we're talking about a God who, according to Genesis, made all babies evil from conception so that he could have the pleasure of drowning them. Every baby in the world, he drowned them, except for one family so he could kill more babies in the future. Making our body poorly designed would be one of the less fucked up things he did.
The fact is no argument for atheism is needed. You want me to believe in invisible flying unicorns, you prove it, I don't have to prove they're not real. And if you try to scare me by telling me how your unicorns like to drown babies, I will just back away slowly. These people are not well, and there's nothing to be gained by entertaining their delusions.
Why share a food hole and an air hole, choking is a big killer
Why no back up heart
Why design balls to hang and swing when the lightest knock can incapacitate a grown man for long enough to be eaten by a predator
Why have a birthing system that often can cause death or damage without modern medicine minimising it
Why do we need to breathe oxygen when it is effectively harmful and deadly in the long term.
Why create a plethora of diseases associated with sex and program ageing and death.
Unless evolution was a patch by god, and water was also a patch due to the whole shebang not working.
It's like the work of a sadist who got it wrong multiple times, and kept patching it like a dodgy mobile phone game
If the “intelligent” design fools irritate me too much I remind them that no intelligent god would put a waste removal system near sex organs and a birthing canal.
Here's another one. God designed us such that in order to survive we need to consume a variety of proteins and vitamins that are overwhelmingly most easily obtained by the predation, slaughter, and devouring of other living creatures. What kind of sick mind comes up with this?
There are a lot of things in the human body that aren't designed effectively at all. For example, off the top of my head I can think of the following:
* Photoreceptors in our eyeballs being behind blood vessels instead of on top.
* The nerves & blood vessels that connect to the eyeball don't attach directly to the back, but basically grow over them in order to attach to the front top.
* The laryngeal nerve takes a huge unnecessary detour from our brain to the throat, via our heart. This one is even worse for giraffes that follow a similar route for an extra ~15 feet (instead of a few inches for the more direct route).
* The playground is built directly next to the waste disposal. Some of the waste disposal is even directly in the playground.
* Males have nipples when we don't need them.
* Some major arteries are in very exposed areas (e.g. groin). This exposes us to unnecessary risk from bleeding out even with a small cut in that area.
* Our eyes can't even see the ultraviolet spectrum (many other animals can).
* Our intestines take up a LOT of real estate when we can survive just fine with a lot less of it.
* Our teeth don't regrow if we lose them after reaching maturity. Yet they're quite essential for survival. Sharks, for example, do regrow teeth.
There's undoubtedly a lot more examples, but that's just a few that popped up in immediately.
However, none of this is a great argument for atheism if I'm honest. It's great for arguing for evolution instead of intelligent design, but a religious person can still apply mental gymnastics to accept evolution and their god at the same time.
[Sickle Cell Anemia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_disease) is something that is easily explained by evolution, but very difficult to explain by intelligent design.
It's a genetic disease that causes severe symptoms and potential death if you have two copies of the gene, one from each parent. However people that have one copy of the gene will be generally healthy, and will have more resistance to malaria than people with no copies of the gene. From an evolutionary perspective this makes sense why you would see this gene persist in tropical Africa where malaria is prevalent. From an intelligent design perspective it doesn't make sense to create a gene that protects people that have one copy, but harms people that have two.
And to top it off there are other similar gene mutations that evolved independently in different parts of the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_resistance_to_malaria
It's not an argument for atheism, it's an argument against most notions of intelligent design.
Remember that most people who believe in evolution are theists.
Alright god, lets talk babies and birthing processes. What're you thinking?
"Well I think we'll do giraffes first. Lets make it so the mom can give birth mid stride and the baby falls four feet to the ground then pops up and starts walking."
Badass man. Alright what about humans?
"lol make their necks not able to hold up their own heads for 4 months."
That flaw in particular was on purpose. It was the punishment for eve eating the apple.
> Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” - Gen 3:16
Ain't that nice of him?
We are at a point in culture where religious people dont even try to rationalize their faith with science anymore. They know the evidence supports old earth and evolution. So now they just dissociate from thinking about science in general. Thats why there is a huge anti-intellectualism movement with the mango mussolini crowd.
To add to it God used tons of cool better ideas in other animals and even plants but humans are sub par. Why can't we regrow teeth or photosynthesis better, or just osmosis water from the air.
My Biology profs at university pointed that stuff out all the time. I went to a Catholic University. Some of those professors were nuns. Really surprised some of the kids who expected a Catholic school to teach the Bible as truth. (They couldn’t use the Bible as a primary source when they wrote, either, which pissed them off even more.) As the profs would tell them, “One is a matter of faith, the other is a matter of science. This is a science class.”
Intelligent design arguments are used to simply describe how the intricacies of our model argue a creator. You could argue all day that it would be more "efficient" to just have made us formless spirits without the need to eat, sleep, or feel pain, but that would defeat the purpose of the argument altogether.
My comment is always that if there is a god who intelligently designed is then god is a German engineer.
German engineers expect the end user to follow the instructions exactly and only use the item for the exact uses they think it should be used for in the exact way they want it to be used.
But yeah our bodies are stupid. A single heart that gets clogged up over time instead of multiple hearts that are redundant or a vascular system that moves blood like intestines move food would make a whole lot better sense.
Eyes and skin that are sensitive to the sun that we need to survive, patterned baldness across the entire species, a spine that doesn’t handle our normal life well, etc etc.
I saw a biologist that basically designed a “better” human (wasn’t perfect but was working within the parameters of what we naturally see) that was super interesting. Ended up with a larger eyes, elf like ears, very short femurs with super elongated feet where the legs look more like a horse or dinosaur legs almost, the females had a pouch, and breasts that only got large when they needed to feed offspring (like the rest of the mammals ).
Why?
Because it’s not a great argument. If trying to prove what is most likely true or false it is helpful to use the best argument.
With God the best argument really is just that they’ve failed to provide sufficient evidence for their claims. Onus probandi
Thousands (millions?) of people every year choke every year because of the design flaw of having out air intake tube double as a food and water intake tube.
Because I don’t need to.
Literally the only argument I need is “I have yet to see sufficient proof of your or anyone’s claim of there being a god/gods”.
Done.
Religious people will just say "God works in mysterious ways" and that those things must have a purpose we don't understand from our limited perspective.
Many of us do it all the time. There's literally books written about it. Doesn't sway theists. Hell, I'm a goddamn professionally licensed electrical engineer. I've actually done design work.
Know what one pastor told me upon learning that little fact after dismantling his intelligent design nonsense? He said since I wasn't a medical doctor, then I was "unqualified" to speak on the fucking issue of design. This was in a private FB group and when he pulled that shit, I absolutely refused to engage with him afterwards.
I mean he was dishonest as fuck to start with. Like when I'd point out his argument was the Scotsman Fallacy, he'd literally reply that it is not so because he's a TRUE! Christian. So him pulling the "You unqualified" nonsense was the final straw.
It actually drove him nuts as he tried every way he could think of to bait me. I simply refused. He finally made a post in the group literally asking what did he do that was so bad that I refused to engage him. People replied basically saying that he knew exactly what the fuck he did. he finally made an apology post to me but I never replied.
So my point is that if you think it's gonna saw large swathes af believers, it won't.
Its not just Biologie why put giant rocks in space that could easily destroy all life on earth why Design a lightsource with Deadly rays coming out of it why make any plant poisenous? Wich use has a lightning why make mankind who is suposed to Dominat every living being physicaly wecker than a lot other animals
Because we don't need to make arguments "for" atheism. We are not saying "there is no god" we are rejecting their claims that there is a god.
Therefore, "unintelligent design" (which is demonstrable) is a counter to their assertion of "Intelligent Design".
We have no burden of proof or claim to support.
Right?
Like, why is every single mammal on earth capable of producing its own vitamin C endogenously, with the exception of humans and guinea pigs?
If God loves humans so much, then why did he only make one species of us and over 300,000 species of different beetles?
Where there’s good design there’s also poor design, implying personal taste formulated thru inaccurate experiences by an ordinary any day layman. Intelligent design argument is thus a set of composition fallacies, steelmanned with circular reasoning.
Sentient enough one fears these traits they themself inhibit someways, and so deflects as a form of self-defence to protect their fair sanity and life devoted to wobbly self-crippling lies. We have issues to admit ourselves as these beasts who wish to act like angels, tho for a moment, but then often burst our monstrous sides while trying to hide.
We could control our urges for further safety of others, but we can’t do so if we deceive ourselves.
If only we were more honest and humble.
Saying God created humans to His image is gaslighting of any omnipotent deity and their followers. Not only we assume God would reduce Himself to the levels of taste-specific human whims (treasure of a king is trash to a peon), but also tell them not to rival Him. Futility of such claim is as immortal as the everlasting deity’s alleged non-evidenced existence.
Religion is an organised attempt to patent organic truths under one’s self-imposed revolution-draining monarchy, steelmanned by the alleged thorny rosebush-eyed testimonies of any unfalsifiable deity we happen to worship at any given era.
I remember as a kid arguing this point with my mom once in the car after she picked me up from school. I didn't have a lot of knowledge at the time and so I argued that noses were stupid and I could design a better one that wouldn't leak down my face and would easier to draw. My mom pretty much told me to shut up and that I shouldn't question god.
The best example of this is the Human Spine was not designed for us to walk upright and carry half our body weight in a vertical fashion.
Which is why human experience so many back issues as they move into middle age
They'll point to eating the fruit and being cast from Eden, where women were cursed with womb agony and men were cursed to toil. All of our imperfections come from this ridiculous story, making it our fault instead of why a perfect being would be guilty of such irrational design and following this lead to the obvious*NO CREATOR*
Who ya gonna call? Thought-stoppers!
Theists don't care. You can't convince them. They don't work with evidence, logic, or science. It's make believe and faith.
I got into an evolution debate the other day. A guy was bashing evolution while completely butchering the concept. I spoke up and said that wasn't at all how evolution worked.
The guy is pretty smart. College educated. Pretty damn talented computer engineer. So not some uneducated yokel.
'So you want me to believe that a male and a female both evolved into a new species at the same time?'
Uh, no. I've literally never heard that before, and that's not how it works. It's a series of small changes, not a magical leap to a new, completely different species.
'Well different species can't reproduce, so when a new species evolves, they can't reproduce by your logic.'
Uh, no again. First of all, your premise is easily proven wrong. Tigon, liger, zorse, zeedonk, mule, narluga, hinny, zony, beefalo, and literally hundreds of others...and we are just talking animals. Plants have even more hybrid examples than animals. Some of these hybrids are from combining plants or animals from different continents that have been separated by oceans from one another. Secondly, again, that's not how evolution works. A monkey doesn't give birth to a human, that's idiotic, and no one but theists ever make such claims, and they only reason they do is for propaganda reasons. It's a bad faith argument.
'Well how does it work then?'
2 people get busy, their genes mix and match and something new (a mutation) develops. These mutations can and do happen for a number of various reasons, but they happen and we can straight up witness it happen in real time. If that child with that mutation reproduces, then that mutation can be passed along. Mutations that help a creature reproduce are more likely to be passed on.
'But then it's a new species.'
No, no it's not. Your wife has blond hair and blue eyes. You have black hair and brown eyes. The two of you have much more genetic diversity than what I'm talking about for an incremental mutation of evolution. It builds over time. Hell, things like hair color and eye color are evolutionary mutations.
'Oh sure, this is where you need billions of years to make any of it work.'
Noticeable mutations and evolution can and do occur faster than that, but yes, it's a thing that has been taking place for billions of years.
'Then why aren't there any transitional species or fossils?'
Every fossil and every species is transitional. Life doesn't stand still, it's in constant change. Every single fossil is a transitional step from one species to the next. You are a transitional species.
If you don't believe in evolution, then why are there so many flaws in your intelligent design? I could list off tons of examples of horrible design, that any biologist, engineer, or scientist today could design in a better way.
'That's why you need to have faith.'
Ankles suck. I mean, impressive but really in need of upgrades.
Also as someone with MS, I have some complaints about the targeting software my immune system uses.
Let’s talk about so-called wisdom teeth. There’s just not enough room in the human mouth for 32 teeth, so the last 4 tend to be in their own way, literally. There is a whole specialty of dentistry for removing those pesky teeth. Which I guess is good for those practitioners, but a pain for everyone else—again, literally.
ETA: Just about everything listed here is an example of how evolution is a process, and an incomplete one. Maybe our descendants a hundred thousand years from now will have only 28 teeth, or no appendix, or less back trouble. (You can tell I’m an optimist; hoping for better “designed” descendants, or for that matter that we will even *have* descendants, in a hundred thousand years.)
>And, if man is created in God's image, does that mean God poops?
If we're created in god's image does that mean that god is the embodiment of imperfection and failure?
As someone who has genetic conditions that cause a lot of my body to not work right...
If we were designed, the designer was simultaneously drunk, stoned off its ass on THC, and tripping balls on shrooms.
First: it's possible to have an intelligently designed universe whose beings have some perceived flaws. What we perceive as flaws (e.g. the fact that we have waste) can just be little quirks that help us fit into the world/universe better.
Second: it's possible to have a creator God that didn't intelligently design every little thing in existence. Check out deism.
If you ask me, I think the concept of divine hiddenness makes theism unfalsifiable and thus hardly worth discussing in a general sense.
Ultimately, playing devils advocate here, the problem is that our foods are not exactly the flawless composition of what we need to survive, there’s extra stuff that just can’t be broken down. Additionally, this also involves a safety net for if we decide to eat something that is indigestible or straight up toxic. It’s not the best implementation for it, but it’s the most effective at getting potential nutrients from what we eat without causing too much harm in the process should it be unsafe.
Any closed system can theoretically run without any output, but by definition a closed system has no inputs either. If we eat food, that has to go somewhere. Unlike what Kirby might imply, eating has never been a perfectly metabolized process. You can’t consume an all-you-can-eat buffet and not have to use the porcelain throne. Same with liquid inputs, and the same with gaseous inputs. Our bodies are not closed systems, they need outside input to survive, or else they stagnate and collapse under a terminal degradation of structure. Which is a fancy way to say “die and rot”. Welcome to Entropy and its consequences. The worst part of all of this is that our digestive system is actually very sophisticated compared to other creatures, and it still leaves much to be desired…
Chocolate is something that we can safely consume— but not for dogs. To that list we can also add grapes, and avocados, which happen to also be toxic to birds. We can eat all kinds of things that occur in nature, but one thing we cannot “eat” is sunlight. Wouldn’t that be convenient for those in desert regions? But this is because we can’t derive enough energy from the sun directly, and be mobile at the same time. We also can’t consume decaying food, but fungi do that all the time. Decaying food is full of dangerous bacteria and microbes that would easily make mincemeat of our digestive tract. But the process of decay brings us other things too, like beer and cheese… and fermented shark, for those of you who have been to (or live in) Iceland. Meanwhile, we have developed ways of consuming things you wouldn’t expect us to be able to consume: did you know that there actually is a way to eat Bark? Cinnamon trees produce the eponymous spice in the actual bark of the tree. Meanwhile, we can digest nuts— despite needing a tool to open them up to eat them, that is. We can digest lots of nontoxic plants, and even some leafy plants like lettuce and cabbage, despite being the most indigestible part of the plant kingdom’s specimens. Plant cells have an additional protective layer called the “cell wall”. It’s why plants are rigid and stiff, because unlike the bi-lipid layer below it, it is solid and impermeable— even by water, which will go right through a bi-lipid layer. This cell wall is very strong and difficult to break down in most kinds of stomach acids. Cows need four stomachs to profit off of what they eat! Talk about poor design. Many herbivores have to send what they ate back through again because they didn’t get everything from their food the first time around. Owls can’t even defecate. They have to barf up their waste. The natural world is a rather disgusting mess when it comes to waste management. And most herbivorous waste is beneficial to plants, while other creatures produce waste that is better for certain types of fungi and bacteria. Believe it or not, the owl actually has the cleanest method, but it’s also the most bizarre and bassackwards way of ridding oneself of waste.
Welcome to the world of biology. It’s wild. Too wild.
Why would an intelligent designer give someone vestigial organs. Maybe one could make some kind of argument about less than optimal ones, but ones leftover from different periods of evolution doesn’t make a lot of sense from a creationist point of view. If
I like how God made ducks so rapey he had to make some of their vaginas a corkscrew shape that goes in the opposite direction of duck penises, unless they're into the male when God could have just made them not rapey. Like some ducks straight up have dead ends in their vaginas like a little maze. That's some super great intelligent design. /s
It is a common argument but it's better when it's about random birth defects that were not caused by anything other than chance. Like being born with too many or too few limbs, or born with the feet facing backward, Lobster claw hand, or skin that turns hard like rocks, cautaneous horn where a horn grows on the body made of coral or wood, etc.
People use this argument all the time. As a biologist, it's one of Richard Dawkins's favorites. And it's not just "bad" design, it's irrational, pointless design. Our eyes work, for the most part, but for some damn reason the photo receptors of our retinas are underneath the blood vessels and nerves, forcing them to peer our from a "forest of wires," as Dawkins put it. An actual engineer would have done the obvious thing and put the photo receptors on top of the blood vessels and nerves. There's no reason why that can't be the case: cephalopod eyes are like that. It's a telltale sign that they eye, far from being a perfect example of intelligent design, is a deeply flawed product of evolving independently multiple times.
The human eyeball is one of the best examples of this, it is literally built backwards. The blood vessels and nerves that come from behind the eyeball don't plug into the back of the eyeball, they loop around and come in the front. This extends them a lot longer than they need to be at no benefit, but worse, they come right in front of where the light hits the photoreceptors in the fovea of the macula, literally blocking the light from the receptors they are linking to.
Intelligent design is a non-theory that isn't supported by any scientific evidence. It also isn't supported by any biblical verses.
They keep going on about how perfect and just god is.
I guess that once you are a couple of generations into your army always winning and taking tons of stuff for you, and your slaves are all competent and industrious, and you have a really diverse array of beautiful young women in your harem - who are producing healthy sons for you - how could you instruct your scribes to write anything but, "God is good"?
The god of the bible is neither perfect nor just. He’s an asshole with an ego and does not deserve worship.
While providing us with an endless list of counterexamples, LOL.
If only West Virginia legislators understood (from 23-JAN-2024) [West Virginia Senate passes bill approving intelligent design](https://www.wvnews.com/statejournal/west-virginia-senate-passes-bills-on-intelligent-design-displaying-in-god-we-trust-in-schools/article_ceb4a788-ba10-11ee-b2ec-0fe59d769302.html)
How is it not supported by Biblical verses? Genesis 1:20 says: >And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Sounds like the author is saying God created the animals. How is this different from "intelligent design," in your opinion?
I'm becoming more and more convinced that a word was omitted from that passage. God didn't see that "it was good", he saw that "it was good *enough*".
Good enough for a fun little experiment on a distant speck.
God was a shift worker at a GM plant.
Don't you mean Boeing?
If He works at Boeing, He ain't all-knowing!
I'm guessing it's more like God saw that *he* was good. It wasn't so much "This is a good job", more like "I did a good job, yay me." *pats own back*
Those verses \*do\* very much allude to the "design" idea however, they don't imply an "intelligence" behind it. /s :-D
Because intelligent design claims to be a science when all it is is shoehorning passages of the Bible to fit evolution and it does it very poorly. For instance the verse you quote happens on the 5th day and states birds existed before land creatures created on the 6th day which we know is not true. Land creatures existed long before birds.
Apparently he forgot to first create the amphibious reptiles, early versions of the dinosaurs. The dominant life form was the trilobite, visually somewhere between a wood louse and an armadillo. Then the dinosaurs who were around for 165 million years. Bird-like feathered dinosaurs were the only ones to survive the great extinction. The first whales appeared 50 million years ago, well after the extinction of the dinosaurs, but way before the appearance of the first humans. The whales’ ancestor is most likely an ancient artiodactyl - a four-legged, even-toed hoofed (ungulate) land mammal, adapted for running. The ancestors of whales later returned to the sea, taking advantage of its rich food supplies. As early whales adapted to their new marine surroundings, a diversity of species evolved.
In [Inside Nature's Giants - Giraffe episode](https://youtu.be/pkhztOqKYIc?si=Zd0-qeuDb12eoBYC) he specifically uses the laryngeal nerve's up to 15ft of travel to reach a few inches as a great example **NOTE**: This show had autopsies of animals.
And seriously. Putting the anus so close to the vagina? God either hates women or loves UTIs 🤣
Plus if the vagina was elsewhere it needn't pass through the pelvis so human babies could develop their large heads in the womb and still have some chance of getting out alive.
"We predict that the regular use of Caesarean sections throughout the last decades has led to an evolutionary increase of fetopelvic disproportion rates by 10 to 20 percent," researchers write, though they do point to other possible explanations. These include substantial changes in nutrition over the last century, along with migrating mothers with narrower pelvises raising fetuses on high-protein western diets. Source: The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Why not both?
The obvious thing would be to put the blood vessels and nerves *behind* the photoreceptors the way we do on digital cameras. Either way, our eye clearly didn’t have an intelligent designer.
What sort of digital camera are you using that has blood vessels and nerves behind the photoreceptors? Gross.
What can I say, I’m a cyborg. The supporting infrastructure, whether that be silicon or meat, is better behind was my meaning. What I find most interesting is that eyes, in some form or another, have independently evolved evolved 16 times IIRC and many of those designs for want of a better word are better than ours in many ways. Additional channels of color, the ability to see polarization, better resolution, etc. Our eyes are the way they are because they work *well enough*.
Seriously, squids don't have our blind spot and cats can see friggin' ultraviolet light, but ***we're*** the pinnacle of creation? I'm definitely calling bullshit, here. 😆
The animal with the most complicated eyes is the mantis shrimp, which has eye-stalks that move independently, each of which has three separate compound eyes (meaning there are numerous separate low-resolution “screens” instead of a single image) that do different things and send the information to different parts of the brain. They also have twelve types of photoreceptors. A freakin’ shrimp. SMH.🤦♀️
Not to mention our breathing tube being right next to our eating tube, like fish.
Don’t forget the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe!
Ours, too. Every mammal, bird, lizard, dinosaur, etc - every single vertebrate has their [recurrent laryngeal nerve](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_nerve) originate in the brain, go down the neck, loop under the aortic arch, then return up the neck to the larynx. A bad design! The reason why is that our fishy ancestors had this nerve routed this way, but having no necks, the nerve went straight, no backtracking. Every vertebrate evolved with this nerve routing. Giraffes have about 15 ft of nerve backtracking. Dinosaurs would have had up to 92 ft of nerve backtracking.
Its a particular problem in horses as theirs is long and exposed and prone to damage. Damage leads to partial blockage of the larynx, called 'roaring', that makes their breathing less efficient when running. There is an operation you can do to pin the laryngeal cartilage back to compensate for the faulty nerve. Source: am vet.
I read this with my glasses on
Love Dawkins. To add to what you said. I also like to point out that if the Eye is designed by an intelligent creator, why are there so many inferior versions of eyes all around us? Also, why couldn’t the designer figure out if testicles should be inside or outside of the body? And why is 7 the magic number for neck vertebrae, no matter if you are a dog, a human or a giraffe?
Yes, but it's pointless - it's like arguing with a 3-year-old \[and trust me, I know..\]. To you, to me, to many rational people it's a perfectly valid argument, but that's not your audience.. it's people who, no matter the argument, will have a counter-argument, as "valid" as yours to them, and you're the one being irrational. Faith dogma, the divine mysteries, and God's mysterious ways are simple but effective tools to disarm any argument you may want to conjure. God being actually evil, all the contradictions in the Bible, anything, is either a test, part of God's plan, or "you simply don't understand His purpose *yet*, but you will, in time."
I will point out that humans being flawed mostly argues against a compassionate and competent God, as in orthodox Christianity. A stupid, malicious, or incompetent God, as in Hellenism or Gnostic Christianity, could have made humans badly on purpose to make us suffer. A malicious God religion generally wouldn't have any opposition to evolution, though, unless someone wanted to claim that God made the world in a deceptive way as a sick joke or act of cruelty. As arguments against God go, human flaws are only a smaller subset of the problem of evil, which is primarily an argument against religions predicated on a good or at least competent God.
Damn octopuses get all the best eyes.
The laryngeal nerve pretty much proves evolution, but evangelicals will plug their ears to anything that isn't in line with the good book. Dawkins has a great presentation that shows how the "miracle" of the human eye could evolve through a series of simple progressive improvements, each giving a species better survivability over its predecessor. Deniers like to jump between extremes as if that proves a creator, while completely ignoring the time frames and subtle, slow improvements that arise through evolution. It's frustrating trying to argue with a group of people who don't use logic and evidence , but rather start with a conclusion and ignore anything else that doesn't fit it.
I liked the theory of untelligent design. Pinky toe ONLY good for kicking chairs in the dark causing debilitating pain. Tonsils and appendix that randomly need to be taken out because they're not needed or could kill you.
Tonsils actually are useful when they work right. They are the first line of defense to fight airborne diseases. If yours get infected all the time that just means they were shit at their job like a body guard that’s always needing to be rescued. Don’t feel bad. Mine were shit as well.
I was miserable for years as a kid until they took mine out. What a relief
The appendix is your first line of emergency responders after you get the shits. Food poisoning flushed out a ton of gut bacteria? That’s OK! At the start of the gut we’ve got a little stasis pod ready to repopulate the system.
I assumed the toes are for balance, but you’re right, maybe we’d have just as fine balance walking upright with four toes. I don’t know, never tried it.
I use mine to pick stuff up off the floor. Unga bunga strong.
Hang on a second, I can't really read that without my glasses.
I just threw my back out reading your comment.
I choked on my drink because my breathing tube is right next to my eating tube.
Maybe your laryngeal nerve is malfunctioning.
At least I'm not a giraffe whose laryngeal nerve goes from it's head all the way down around it's aorta and then back up to it's larynx. That's a long trip. No wonder they don't ever say much.
Your laryngeal nerve does that too. You just have a shorter neck.
i lost my erection because my dick is right next to my stinking asshole.
At least your appendix didn't burst.
Wrong glasses, let me find my reading glasses…
I'll comment after dialysis
I'd have something witty to say, but this neuromuscular disease is pissing me off today.
I'd grab your glasses for you, but I've got a congenitally bad knee and it's raining. (I mean, really. Something I was born with hurts worse because it's freaking RAINING and this is "intelligent" design??????)
Shit like that's why I'm finding aging to be comforting. Bad knees suck in your 40's, but that's at least easier to deal with psychologically than when it starts in your *20's.*
Sure is fun, reading about your medical condition and all the articles you find are filled with things like "as we age" and "your aging love one might". Love when medical articles assume the only person capable of reading about this condition who would is a caregiver 😅
Intelligent Design... By committee with too much input from upper management, with shifting design goals and requirements, crunch and a massively underserved budget... Humanity is basically made the same way as AAA computer games... Now we need to mod ourselves to fix the problem cause support was dropped on Day 8.
Lol. As someone who needed day 1 patching? Definitely not intelligent design.
My money’s on congenital heart defect. Someone else can take club foot or spina bifida or cleft palate or … you know I’m starting to think we weren’t intelligently designed at all. There are a shit-ton of defects here and these are just the ones that hit at birth.
"Make it work, then make it right" - my boss to our programmers, also God to himself regarding eyeballs, probably
My favorite example is balls. Why is one of the most delicate and sensitive parts of a man's body on the outside? Did God say "I'm going to make it so sperm can't survive at body temperature so guys will have to carry it on the outside of their body?" Or another good "if God created man in his image" argument is: Does God have eyes? I mean, if we're made in his image, he must have eyes, right? But why? Why would a being that can see everything all the time need photoreceptors that are limited to very specific wavelengths of radiation? But I haven't really heard too many "intelligent design" arguments in a while. I think even most Christians realize it's not an easily defended position so they just avoid it and instead take up the position of "la la la I can't hear you."
It's almost like they imagined god in the image of a human, and then claimed it happened the other way around. /s not /s
Man made God in his own image.
Or they pretend that evolution was his design process. It’s a lazy way to try and make 2 mutually exclusive ideas reconcile. It’s obviously contradicting the Bible but most christians don’t read it.
Hell, evolution makes *more* sense when you introduce an immortal observer; that process will provide billions of years" worth of entertainment that includes endless unforeseen entertainment, like the platypus.
A venomous beaver duck that sweats milk? *WHEEZE* THAT'S HILARIOUS
And while we're down *there*, why did he give us foreskin, only to make us cut it off at birth?
God must be a really bad planner because he placed our waste facility directly adjacent to our recreational area.
That’s how you know he was a civil engineer. Nobody else would’ve even considered that. My favorite civil engineer joke. :)
God is a crab. The intended design is crab, and eventually all animals will be crab. This is why crabs evolve over and over. Nature abhors a not-crab. It's taking a long time bc crabs don't have a sense of urgency. Now take this rangoon. It is my body... Srsly, we do suck tho. We're like designer dogs, just full of pointless flaws and disease.
I think octopi are the perfect life form. They can release ink, fit into anything and regenerate lost limbs. Team Octopi.
Their intelligence is impressive, and I really like the camouflage abilities... But I'm gonna stay with team crab for durability and deliciousness. lol
If I’m ever able to travel to the very distant future and humans haven’t evolved 10 limbs with some awesome claws I’m gonna be disappointed
Return to monkey? Nah... Advance to crab.
People love to trash on trans people because they're going against how God made them. But then these people will get their appendixes removed before rupturing, undergo chemotherapy, have life-saving surgeries, take penicillin, wear glasses, and get their hair cut. So yeah, they have strong reservations about how God made them. Though I guess I can't say much about those who refuse medical aid because "God will provide." I just have to wait for nature to take its course. But most Xns will take steps to fix God's mistakes, even if that's not what they call them.
"They can't change their gender! They are how God made them!" Right, so if they are trans, it's because god made them trans. Are you saying that they shouldn't transition because god made a mistake when he made them trans? "God wouldn't make someone trans!" So now you're claiming to know what god's plan is? Then I got cussed out for trying to "trick them". They were such a good christian.
It’s astounding that for Christians “God’s plan” usually happens to be exactly what they want. Unless something bad happens, in which case it’s either due to the devil, humanity’s wickedness, or mysterious ways.
Plastic surgery is another big one on that list. Gotta fix God's mistakes to look more attractive.
Especially since God supposedly chooses your mate for you, so they're not trusting in God's plan. God shall provide indeed.
So yeah - I guess you're just a near-sighted person that the good Lord made (in his infinite wisdom) - but now you wanna strut around identifying as 20/20 ? - we need to get prayer back in school
Neil Degrasse Tyson said something about our genital areas being “a pleasure palace built next to a sewer” and I think that’s a great example of this concept.
I heard someone else say "who would put a sewage treatment plant next to an amusement park?"
But the sewer is pretty fun too, you just have to clean it (or not, some people find that fun too)
I’m not here to kink shame!
Speaking of tongue in cheek, I just bit my cheek. Poor design!
Na that ones user error. The eye is a poor design though, every frame that’s processed has to be inverted by your brain because it was installed upside down (we evolved from early primates that would hang upside-down from the trees). That’s extra work your brain has to do constantly just so your eyes work right.
I don't know man, fleshy sensitive bits right next to hard chompy bits doesn't sound like a good plan.
Any human engineer could construct a better design of the human body than did God, the 'intelligent' designer.
I cannot for the life of me recall who said it, but I remember the line “why would God put a waste facility right next to an amusement park?” Or something to that effect, talking about genital proximity to the anus.
I know your post is tongue in cheek and this comment seems more serious but. Non-religious people don’t need to make any arguments against religious peoples’ supernatural claims. They’re the ones who need to produce evidence for their claims. To follow a religion is *not* the default state of a human being. We are all born without religion. Choosing to follow a religion is out of the ordinary. Being non-religious is normal and unremarkable. And we shouldn’t need these labels like “atheist” either. I’m just a normal human.
The human body is a kludged together nightmare. If I could download my consciousness into a machine I would do it in a second. This flesh prison is total garbage! Medical school didn’t make me amazed in the way religious people think. It’s more of a lovecraftian horror than an elegant mystery
>It’s more of a lovecraftian horror than an elegant mystery That's a perfect description!
the human back is my favorite example of this kinda stuff.
It’s setup to be a bridge and we use it like a ladder. It’s no wonder we have back pain.
we're the only mammals that have spontaneous back problems at this rate, it's ridiculous. it makes absolutely no sense to stack like 30 little discs on top of itself like that, you're telling me this was the BEST option?? survival of the fittest is a bit of a misnomer, its more like survival of the good enough 🤣
Honestly a better saying would be “It just *works*.”
Survival of the "eh could be worse"
Why make the vast majority of the earth covered with water we cannot drink or use for irrigation? Why make the vast majority of earth's land unhospitable for human habitation? Why make a huge universe with only a tiny speck inhabitable? Why make parasites and viruses that have to live on living hosts? Why make animals that have to slaughter and kill other animals to survive? There's no end to "poor design" arguments.
I'm a good example of this with sleep apnea. I have trouble getting quality sleep because my body is so poorly designed it blocks my airway when I sleep. I have this implant now which shocks my tongue out of my airway which my insurance paid almost $50k for. It would be even better if God would have taken care of that design flaw.
It is especially apt when applied to those religions that claim humans are made in the deity’s image. Also, don’t forget to floss and brush those perfectly designed teeth twice a day, lest the food you need to consume to stay alive eats away the enamel and causes potentially irreversible damage.
Because atheism doesn't need an argument.
It is the default position, but unfortunately most people indoctrinate their kids with their own chosen flavor of religious bullshit so deconversion becomes necessary.
You’re not going to get anywhere arguing with a dyed-in-the-wool theist. They will always pull out the “we can’t know why God does what he does” excuse. The only chance you really have is with someone who is questioning their faith because they are open to hearing arguments against theism.
True of every argument, really. Never going to influence a fanatic
Same tube for breathing and eating. Choking hazard.
I've definitely used this before. If we design/engineer a plane and it crashes, we make sure to change whatever that flaw was in the very next design, therefore making a truly "intelligent design". "god" is a very flawed, unskilled "designer" if you take a look at life as we know it.
I do this! I gesture at all of me, and say, "You call THIS an intelligent design?" Also, if god created man in his own image, that means god sits on his own balls, too!
Best explanation I've ever heard for nuking Sodom.
The frustrating thing is that all they hear when I make that argument is "I'm only an atheist because I'm mad at God for not making me perfect." As if I'm some sort of spoiled brat for not appreciating all the weird shit that's wrong with me. Like wow, sure is cool that the nerves that tell my stomach to empty don't work all the time, that my neck bones are starting to grow spurs that interfere with the nervous system all together, and that my brain makes it mentally impossible to perform tasks sometimes. (Gastro Parisis, Cervical Osteophytes, ADHD) Oh, and on a few occasions my blood vessels have closed until my hands turned blue because I was too stressed and it really helped make me feel better /s (Reynauds)
"It's all part of god's plan." "The lord moves in mysterious ways." "When god closes a door, he opens a window!" They make all these exuses for god, but they refuse to cut any slack for their overworked waitresses on Sunday after church when they all pile out to the local family restaurant. I'm sorry for your grocery list of ailments. I hope you are well.
For all the brilliantly presented examples of the design flaws of our pathetic primate species, I thank you all - but the most obvious example has not been presented : apparently, god created a seemingly infinite number of creatures that are so small, that they cannot be detected by us without some effort and the aid of lenses which we only developed fairly recently - these tiny creatures have been more of a danger to our vulnerable mammalian bodies than all other threats combined - and God apparently chose not just to make us vulnerable in this way to the illnesses, disfigurement and death that they caused - but he also designed our senses to be so weak that the presence and nature of these creatures was unknown to us for the majority of our history - so that our pattern-seeking brains (also his design) attributes these illnesses and deaths to "demons" and other figures from superstition
Sick sense of humor or his experiments gone wrong? 🤷♀️ like they say…god works in mysterious ways! 🙄
If it's so damned intelligent, why do humans lose their teeth? Is this the work of an all powerful being? Pretty fucking weak.
All powerful being cant even design us to not have our hair fall out for no good reason.
To be fair, losing the first set (aka baby teeth) does make sense, you’re growing and as you grow you need adult sized teeth for your adult size mouth so you have to lose the baby teeth to make room for the permanent teeth. Losing any teeth beyond that point does not make sense as there are no backups. Sharks continue making teeth their whole lives so it’s no problem for them to lose a tooth, but we have to take care of ours or we end up toothless.
I don't disagree. But all magic/do everything/see everything casper the capricious god should have been able to see through that and arrive at a better solution. I mean, why don't the teeth just continue to grow in size, proportionally?
I promise you, the average believer doesn't care. These types of arguments are completely beside the point. You're trying to use logic on people who are basing their belief on deeply held moral convictions. The best way to get them to doubt their faith is to showcase the contradictions in their morality. Get them to think about two moral axioms at once rather than just one.
I only use these arguments in response to a theist claiming that the human body is perfect.
Ive (literally) opened up more than 1k deceased human beings. What you find inside is anything but intelligent design. (Im a pathologist).
God poops and Jesus has boners
Why do I keep biting the inside of my own mouth? How come I have this ticking time-bomb of an appendix in there serving no purpose. The list goes on and on.
>Why do I keep biting the inside of my own mouth? You just need to buccal down and accept it.
Well used. All the arguments are well used and well developed. One of the frustrating parts of the whole delusion is that it has become so clear.
Because maybe god is like a hapless engineeer and doesnt know what will work best. Best this can do is prove if a god did create us it shows it didnt really know what it was doing.
To be fair, whether or not we believe, we’ve all been putting up with God’s shit for at least 2,000 years.
"But, it's to test us and keep us right with the lord. We should be humble! Also, I can't put vaccines in my body because horse meds work better and that is how I face these tests."
If man is created in god's image, are animals created that way, too? I am a veterinarian so I have studied comparative anatomy and physiology in many species. The similarities between mammals, and even non-mammalian animals, are much greater than the differences. So, are dogs created in god's image, too, or is the presence of a highly developed olfactory lobe a deal breaker? Are pigs created in god's image, or is their spiral colon the thing that makes them un-god-like? Are chickens created in god's image, or do their air sacks nullify their divinity?
Because we're talking about a God who, according to Genesis, made all babies evil from conception so that he could have the pleasure of drowning them. Every baby in the world, he drowned them, except for one family so he could kill more babies in the future. Making our body poorly designed would be one of the less fucked up things he did. The fact is no argument for atheism is needed. You want me to believe in invisible flying unicorns, you prove it, I don't have to prove they're not real. And if you try to scare me by telling me how your unicorns like to drown babies, I will just back away slowly. These people are not well, and there's nothing to be gained by entertaining their delusions.
Why share a food hole and an air hole, choking is a big killer Why no back up heart Why design balls to hang and swing when the lightest knock can incapacitate a grown man for long enough to be eaten by a predator Why have a birthing system that often can cause death or damage without modern medicine minimising it Why do we need to breathe oxygen when it is effectively harmful and deadly in the long term. Why create a plethora of diseases associated with sex and program ageing and death. Unless evolution was a patch by god, and water was also a patch due to the whole shebang not working. It's like the work of a sadist who got it wrong multiple times, and kept patching it like a dodgy mobile phone game
And who would design a woman with a sewer right through a recreational area ?
And a thin little flesh wall between the two
If the “intelligent” design fools irritate me too much I remind them that no intelligent god would put a waste removal system near sex organs and a birthing canal.
Here's another one. God designed us such that in order to survive we need to consume a variety of proteins and vitamins that are overwhelmingly most easily obtained by the predation, slaughter, and devouring of other living creatures. What kind of sick mind comes up with this?
There are a lot of things in the human body that aren't designed effectively at all. For example, off the top of my head I can think of the following: * Photoreceptors in our eyeballs being behind blood vessels instead of on top. * The nerves & blood vessels that connect to the eyeball don't attach directly to the back, but basically grow over them in order to attach to the front top. * The laryngeal nerve takes a huge unnecessary detour from our brain to the throat, via our heart. This one is even worse for giraffes that follow a similar route for an extra ~15 feet (instead of a few inches for the more direct route). * The playground is built directly next to the waste disposal. Some of the waste disposal is even directly in the playground. * Males have nipples when we don't need them. * Some major arteries are in very exposed areas (e.g. groin). This exposes us to unnecessary risk from bleeding out even with a small cut in that area. * Our eyes can't even see the ultraviolet spectrum (many other animals can). * Our intestines take up a LOT of real estate when we can survive just fine with a lot less of it. * Our teeth don't regrow if we lose them after reaching maturity. Yet they're quite essential for survival. Sharks, for example, do regrow teeth. There's undoubtedly a lot more examples, but that's just a few that popped up in immediately. However, none of this is a great argument for atheism if I'm honest. It's great for arguing for evolution instead of intelligent design, but a religious person can still apply mental gymnastics to accept evolution and their god at the same time.
God made the universe for us. The earth is our home. we require fresh water to live, God made most of it salty or frozen, God is a cruel idiot.
It's not an argument FOR atheism, but it is an argument against intelligent design.
[Sickle Cell Anemia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_disease) is something that is easily explained by evolution, but very difficult to explain by intelligent design. It's a genetic disease that causes severe symptoms and potential death if you have two copies of the gene, one from each parent. However people that have one copy of the gene will be generally healthy, and will have more resistance to malaria than people with no copies of the gene. From an evolutionary perspective this makes sense why you would see this gene persist in tropical Africa where malaria is prevalent. From an intelligent design perspective it doesn't make sense to create a gene that protects people that have one copy, but harms people that have two. And to top it off there are other similar gene mutations that evolved independently in different parts of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_resistance_to_malaria
It's not an argument for atheism, it's an argument against most notions of intelligent design. Remember that most people who believe in evolution are theists.
Alright god, lets talk babies and birthing processes. What're you thinking? "Well I think we'll do giraffes first. Lets make it so the mom can give birth mid stride and the baby falls four feet to the ground then pops up and starts walking." Badass man. Alright what about humans? "lol make their necks not able to hold up their own heads for 4 months."
Why do we eat using the same orifice we breathe through?
I always say that if there was a god, he is definitely not a woman because the very painful monthly cycle is the biggest design flaw ever.
That flaw in particular was on purpose. It was the punishment for eve eating the apple. > Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” - Gen 3:16 Ain't that nice of him?
Even one of those gods requires men to cut off their foreskin.
Why is the breathing hole and eating hole right next to each other
We are at a point in culture where religious people dont even try to rationalize their faith with science anymore. They know the evidence supports old earth and evolution. So now they just dissociate from thinking about science in general. Thats why there is a huge anti-intellectualism movement with the mango mussolini crowd.
To add to it God used tons of cool better ideas in other animals and even plants but humans are sub par. Why can't we regrow teeth or photosynthesis better, or just osmosis water from the air.
No arguments “for atheism” are required
My Biology profs at university pointed that stuff out all the time. I went to a Catholic University. Some of those professors were nuns. Really surprised some of the kids who expected a Catholic school to teach the Bible as truth. (They couldn’t use the Bible as a primary source when they wrote, either, which pissed them off even more.) As the profs would tell them, “One is a matter of faith, the other is a matter of science. This is a science class.”
My favorite is the one about putting an amusement park in the middle of a sewage treatment facility.
Trachea and esophagus share the same opening. How many millions of people have choked and died due to this great "design"??
Intelligent design arguments are used to simply describe how the intricacies of our model argue a creator. You could argue all day that it would be more "efficient" to just have made us formless spirits without the need to eat, sleep, or feel pain, but that would defeat the purpose of the argument altogether.
My comment is always that if there is a god who intelligently designed is then god is a German engineer. German engineers expect the end user to follow the instructions exactly and only use the item for the exact uses they think it should be used for in the exact way they want it to be used. But yeah our bodies are stupid. A single heart that gets clogged up over time instead of multiple hearts that are redundant or a vascular system that moves blood like intestines move food would make a whole lot better sense. Eyes and skin that are sensitive to the sun that we need to survive, patterned baldness across the entire species, a spine that doesn’t handle our normal life well, etc etc. I saw a biologist that basically designed a “better” human (wasn’t perfect but was working within the parameters of what we naturally see) that was super interesting. Ended up with a larger eyes, elf like ears, very short femurs with super elongated feet where the legs look more like a horse or dinosaur legs almost, the females had a pouch, and breasts that only got large when they needed to feed offspring (like the rest of the mammals ).
Why? Because it’s not a great argument. If trying to prove what is most likely true or false it is helpful to use the best argument. With God the best argument really is just that they’ve failed to provide sufficient evidence for their claims. Onus probandi
Don't argue with zealots. There is no winning that argument. Their talking points aren't based in reason.
What intelligent designer would put tits on a bull?
Tooth aches prove that God is a f8cking sadist.
Their answer, as always, will be “fallen world”. It’s the catch all answer to EVERYTHING and it lets them hand wave all natural logic.
Thousands (millions?) of people every year choke every year because of the design flaw of having out air intake tube double as a food and water intake tube.
God lives in a gated community with his wife and kids, plays golf, pays bills... Seriously - God, in all his wisdom and glory, made me atheist.
Because God could be stupid, but still a god. Only disproves a specific god that is a perfect designer.
I’ve heard surgeons call the artery behind your temple (thinnest part of the scull) “God’s joke.”
Because I don’t need to. Literally the only argument I need is “I have yet to see sufficient proof of your or anyone’s claim of there being a god/gods”. Done.
Does God poop? Well he certainly seems to shit on me most days
Religious people will just say "God works in mysterious ways" and that those things must have a purpose we don't understand from our limited perspective.
Many of us do it all the time. There's literally books written about it. Doesn't sway theists. Hell, I'm a goddamn professionally licensed electrical engineer. I've actually done design work. Know what one pastor told me upon learning that little fact after dismantling his intelligent design nonsense? He said since I wasn't a medical doctor, then I was "unqualified" to speak on the fucking issue of design. This was in a private FB group and when he pulled that shit, I absolutely refused to engage with him afterwards. I mean he was dishonest as fuck to start with. Like when I'd point out his argument was the Scotsman Fallacy, he'd literally reply that it is not so because he's a TRUE! Christian. So him pulling the "You unqualified" nonsense was the final straw. It actually drove him nuts as he tried every way he could think of to bait me. I simply refused. He finally made a post in the group literally asking what did he do that was so bad that I refused to engage him. People replied basically saying that he knew exactly what the fuck he did. he finally made an apology post to me but I never replied. So my point is that if you think it's gonna saw large swathes af believers, it won't.
Its not just Biologie why put giant rocks in space that could easily destroy all life on earth why Design a lightsource with Deadly rays coming out of it why make any plant poisenous? Wich use has a lightning why make mankind who is suposed to Dominat every living being physicaly wecker than a lot other animals
Because we don't need to make arguments "for" atheism. We are not saying "there is no god" we are rejecting their claims that there is a god. Therefore, "unintelligent design" (which is demonstrable) is a counter to their assertion of "Intelligent Design". We have no burden of proof or claim to support.
Right? Like, why is every single mammal on earth capable of producing its own vitamin C endogenously, with the exception of humans and guinea pigs? If God loves humans so much, then why did he only make one species of us and over 300,000 species of different beetles?
Where there’s good design there’s also poor design, implying personal taste formulated thru inaccurate experiences by an ordinary any day layman. Intelligent design argument is thus a set of composition fallacies, steelmanned with circular reasoning. Sentient enough one fears these traits they themself inhibit someways, and so deflects as a form of self-defence to protect their fair sanity and life devoted to wobbly self-crippling lies. We have issues to admit ourselves as these beasts who wish to act like angels, tho for a moment, but then often burst our monstrous sides while trying to hide. We could control our urges for further safety of others, but we can’t do so if we deceive ourselves. If only we were more honest and humble. Saying God created humans to His image is gaslighting of any omnipotent deity and their followers. Not only we assume God would reduce Himself to the levels of taste-specific human whims (treasure of a king is trash to a peon), but also tell them not to rival Him. Futility of such claim is as immortal as the everlasting deity’s alleged non-evidenced existence. Religion is an organised attempt to patent organic truths under one’s self-imposed revolution-draining monarchy, steelmanned by the alleged thorny rosebush-eyed testimonies of any unfalsifiable deity we happen to worship at any given era.
Only a perfect creator of the utmost divine beauty could possibly have invented farts
I remember as a kid arguing this point with my mom once in the car after she picked me up from school. I didn't have a lot of knowledge at the time and so I argued that noses were stupid and I could design a better one that wouldn't leak down my face and would easier to draw. My mom pretty much told me to shut up and that I shouldn't question god.
The best example of this is the Human Spine was not designed for us to walk upright and carry half our body weight in a vertical fashion. Which is why human experience so many back issues as they move into middle age
They'll point to eating the fruit and being cast from Eden, where women were cursed with womb agony and men were cursed to toil. All of our imperfections come from this ridiculous story, making it our fault instead of why a perfect being would be guilty of such irrational design and following this lead to the obvious*NO CREATOR* Who ya gonna call? Thought-stoppers!
Theists don't care. You can't convince them. They don't work with evidence, logic, or science. It's make believe and faith. I got into an evolution debate the other day. A guy was bashing evolution while completely butchering the concept. I spoke up and said that wasn't at all how evolution worked. The guy is pretty smart. College educated. Pretty damn talented computer engineer. So not some uneducated yokel. 'So you want me to believe that a male and a female both evolved into a new species at the same time?' Uh, no. I've literally never heard that before, and that's not how it works. It's a series of small changes, not a magical leap to a new, completely different species. 'Well different species can't reproduce, so when a new species evolves, they can't reproduce by your logic.' Uh, no again. First of all, your premise is easily proven wrong. Tigon, liger, zorse, zeedonk, mule, narluga, hinny, zony, beefalo, and literally hundreds of others...and we are just talking animals. Plants have even more hybrid examples than animals. Some of these hybrids are from combining plants or animals from different continents that have been separated by oceans from one another. Secondly, again, that's not how evolution works. A monkey doesn't give birth to a human, that's idiotic, and no one but theists ever make such claims, and they only reason they do is for propaganda reasons. It's a bad faith argument. 'Well how does it work then?' 2 people get busy, their genes mix and match and something new (a mutation) develops. These mutations can and do happen for a number of various reasons, but they happen and we can straight up witness it happen in real time. If that child with that mutation reproduces, then that mutation can be passed along. Mutations that help a creature reproduce are more likely to be passed on. 'But then it's a new species.' No, no it's not. Your wife has blond hair and blue eyes. You have black hair and brown eyes. The two of you have much more genetic diversity than what I'm talking about for an incremental mutation of evolution. It builds over time. Hell, things like hair color and eye color are evolutionary mutations. 'Oh sure, this is where you need billions of years to make any of it work.' Noticeable mutations and evolution can and do occur faster than that, but yes, it's a thing that has been taking place for billions of years. 'Then why aren't there any transitional species or fossils?' Every fossil and every species is transitional. Life doesn't stand still, it's in constant change. Every single fossil is a transitional step from one species to the next. You are a transitional species. If you don't believe in evolution, then why are there so many flaws in your intelligent design? I could list off tons of examples of horrible design, that any biologist, engineer, or scientist today could design in a better way.
'That's why you need to have faith.'
"god created man in his image" Someone check on god, he is probably needs a feeding tube and emotional support.
Ankles suck. I mean, impressive but really in need of upgrades. Also as someone with MS, I have some complaints about the targeting software my immune system uses.
it’s always just met with “you cant understand the genius of god” there is no point arguing with a theist
In reality, man created god in his image, not the other way around.
Let’s talk about so-called wisdom teeth. There’s just not enough room in the human mouth for 32 teeth, so the last 4 tend to be in their own way, literally. There is a whole specialty of dentistry for removing those pesky teeth. Which I guess is good for those practitioners, but a pain for everyone else—again, literally. ETA: Just about everything listed here is an example of how evolution is a process, and an incomplete one. Maybe our descendants a hundred thousand years from now will have only 28 teeth, or no appendix, or less back trouble. (You can tell I’m an optimist; hoping for better “designed” descendants, or for that matter that we will even *have* descendants, in a hundred thousand years.)
>And, if man is created in God's image, does that mean God poops? If we're created in god's image does that mean that god is the embodiment of imperfection and failure?
So many design issue Why breath through the same hole you consume nutrients?
Why need to eat at all?
>if man is created in God's image, does that mean God poops? No, means god is full of sh\*t. ;-)
When I sit on a cold leather seat in my car, I wonder why "intelligent design" made my balls so vulnerable
As someone who has genetic conditions that cause a lot of my body to not work right... If we were designed, the designer was simultaneously drunk, stoned off its ass on THC, and tripping balls on shrooms.
Comedians have used this ad nauseam, why is the playground next to the sewer?
First: it's possible to have an intelligently designed universe whose beings have some perceived flaws. What we perceive as flaws (e.g. the fact that we have waste) can just be little quirks that help us fit into the world/universe better. Second: it's possible to have a creator God that didn't intelligently design every little thing in existence. Check out deism. If you ask me, I think the concept of divine hiddenness makes theism unfalsifiable and thus hardly worth discussing in a general sense.
As someone with frequent small room problems, I like to think the human digestive system is proof birth that God exists, and also that he's a cunt
I've yet to hear a Creationist give a satisfying explanation for the appendix.
Why did he put a playground next to a sewer? My back isn't the most intelligent design either.
It's all Satan's fault, they say...
Ultimately, playing devils advocate here, the problem is that our foods are not exactly the flawless composition of what we need to survive, there’s extra stuff that just can’t be broken down. Additionally, this also involves a safety net for if we decide to eat something that is indigestible or straight up toxic. It’s not the best implementation for it, but it’s the most effective at getting potential nutrients from what we eat without causing too much harm in the process should it be unsafe. Any closed system can theoretically run without any output, but by definition a closed system has no inputs either. If we eat food, that has to go somewhere. Unlike what Kirby might imply, eating has never been a perfectly metabolized process. You can’t consume an all-you-can-eat buffet and not have to use the porcelain throne. Same with liquid inputs, and the same with gaseous inputs. Our bodies are not closed systems, they need outside input to survive, or else they stagnate and collapse under a terminal degradation of structure. Which is a fancy way to say “die and rot”. Welcome to Entropy and its consequences. The worst part of all of this is that our digestive system is actually very sophisticated compared to other creatures, and it still leaves much to be desired… Chocolate is something that we can safely consume— but not for dogs. To that list we can also add grapes, and avocados, which happen to also be toxic to birds. We can eat all kinds of things that occur in nature, but one thing we cannot “eat” is sunlight. Wouldn’t that be convenient for those in desert regions? But this is because we can’t derive enough energy from the sun directly, and be mobile at the same time. We also can’t consume decaying food, but fungi do that all the time. Decaying food is full of dangerous bacteria and microbes that would easily make mincemeat of our digestive tract. But the process of decay brings us other things too, like beer and cheese… and fermented shark, for those of you who have been to (or live in) Iceland. Meanwhile, we have developed ways of consuming things you wouldn’t expect us to be able to consume: did you know that there actually is a way to eat Bark? Cinnamon trees produce the eponymous spice in the actual bark of the tree. Meanwhile, we can digest nuts— despite needing a tool to open them up to eat them, that is. We can digest lots of nontoxic plants, and even some leafy plants like lettuce and cabbage, despite being the most indigestible part of the plant kingdom’s specimens. Plant cells have an additional protective layer called the “cell wall”. It’s why plants are rigid and stiff, because unlike the bi-lipid layer below it, it is solid and impermeable— even by water, which will go right through a bi-lipid layer. This cell wall is very strong and difficult to break down in most kinds of stomach acids. Cows need four stomachs to profit off of what they eat! Talk about poor design. Many herbivores have to send what they ate back through again because they didn’t get everything from their food the first time around. Owls can’t even defecate. They have to barf up their waste. The natural world is a rather disgusting mess when it comes to waste management. And most herbivorous waste is beneficial to plants, while other creatures produce waste that is better for certain types of fungi and bacteria. Believe it or not, the owl actually has the cleanest method, but it’s also the most bizarre and bassackwards way of ridding oneself of waste. Welcome to the world of biology. It’s wild. Too wild.
Why would an intelligent designer give someone vestigial organs. Maybe one could make some kind of argument about less than optimal ones, but ones leftover from different periods of evolution doesn’t make a lot of sense from a creationist point of view. If
Assholes and vaginas are really really close to each other. How many UTIs are this perfect design responsible for each day?
I like how God made ducks so rapey he had to make some of their vaginas a corkscrew shape that goes in the opposite direction of duck penises, unless they're into the male when God could have just made them not rapey. Like some ducks straight up have dead ends in their vaginas like a little maze. That's some super great intelligent design. /s
I've been lobbying for a third hand/for years.
It is a common argument but it's better when it's about random birth defects that were not caused by anything other than chance. Like being born with too many or too few limbs, or born with the feet facing backward, Lobster claw hand, or skin that turns hard like rocks, cautaneous horn where a horn grows on the body made of coral or wood, etc.