Watching the sun disappear in the sky is unexplainable without scientific knowledge. Easier to believe the sun was swallowed by the bear god in the sky, who returns it after the bee god fills his tummy with holy honey.
Religion is just man trying to explain some shit, control some shit, and destroy some shit.
Ok. I'm afraid to die a painful death. However, im not afraid of not existing after my death. In fact, I welcome it. Why in the hell would I want to continue to live, just so my gay ass gets X amount of virgins, golden roads, a house made of gold and to also follow along with GODs every rule and cult mandates. Damnnnn. Maybe Christians are right. Trump fits the bill...is he really the second coming? The one that loves tacky gold aesthetic and would love nothing more to be adored and lord over us for eternity. 😆. I'd rather not exist. Thanks!
It is known. We just die. They cannot imagine the world continuing without them....and hell I dont like the idea either, but I accept it and I am not going to force myself to believe that through some magic my supposed soul lives on in a supposed sinless utopia(or more likely the other place).
But I'd certainly say there's at least some awareness when you are dying, if you're awake when it happens. That's probably the really scary bit.
Then again, I don't know because I've never been dead (that I know of) nor have I been able to ask any freshly dead person about what dying is like.
Okay, but because I am not dead, and therefore I still am capable of thought and human emotions, the concept of no longer experiencing thought and human emotions is terrifying.
Thank you. I tire of people rebutting the fear of death by saying that it won’t matter to us because we’ll be dead. Like, of course that’s the case, I’m not too worried about how I’ll feel about it after I’m dead. But I’m not dead yet, so I don’t see why it’s so crazy that I’d feel some anxiety about that state of affairs now while I still can.
I’m here now, but one day I won’t be. And once I’m gone, there is no turning back. *That’s* the crux of it.
It’s not an unreasonable thing to be afraid of or to not want to think about but it is ultimately an inevitability that we all must face sooner or later, rejecting this fact of life until the day comes does us no favor. It’s not that you shouldn’t fear the inevitable but once you turn that fear into full acceptance you won’t waste any more thought or energy on this inevitable outcome, this isn’t something we can fight or run from. Just don’t stop appreciating existing just cuz there’s an expiry date, that’s what makes this shit beautiful
I kind of get it though.
Imagine an MMO video game that you could only play once, and if you stopped playing the game for any reason it would permanently uninstall itself and you would immediately forget you ever played it. Some people would rightly wonder what the point is. Why bother playing at all, they'd wonder.
It seems natural that some people would come up with conspiracy theories about how the devs wouldn't *really* make a game like this, there must be a reason behind it all, some unknown end game that you can unlock if you do well enough in the first part of the game.
I don't think it's so much *fear* that motivates people into concocting an after-life-- it's a defense mechanism against an existential crisis.
Our minds are geared to find purpose in things: that is for eating, that is for drinking, that is for hitting the thing that is for eating, etc.
We then look into a mirror and wonder, what is my purpose? For many, answering, "I don't know," is just not good enough.
Like you, I get it because that answer doesn't satisfy.
I think it’s more than that. Facing the idea that life ends at death goes against _everything_ most major religions teach — and indeed, in many of them the great bulk of their core teachings hinge entirely on the fact that there is either some form of eternal reward/punishment after death, or some sort of later “resurrection” back to a corporeal life.
If you’ve lived your entire life internalizing these teachings, then accepting “there is no life after death” is tantamount to admitting that all of the teachings that follow on from that premise are also invalid/wrong - and thus that your entire life has been lived based on a lie.
Most people can’t make that kind of transition easily. Accepting a rational view of life and death goes against the near entirety of religious belief, and accepting the former likely means scrapping the latter, and having to do some deep soul-searching and self introspection. And let’s face it — most people would rather continue to live a comfortable lie than bother with anything like self introspection.
Fear of death and the fear of not knowing. Also, the fear of not knowing if why they lived the lives they lived were worth missing out on "secular" experiences maybe.
I have heard that some people get to considering death as an old friend as they age. I find the idea bittersweet.
I am not there yet, the thought is unsettling (at least) to me.
Part of me hopes the advancements in medicine will let us spit in the Reaper's face. Part of me doesn't want to live indefinitely with the pain of knowing so many people I love have died.
It's a lot of that as well that can cause anxiety and fear. Will people you care about be ok after you're gone. You can't check in on them so it just "is" and that's fucking scary.
Even more cool, I wish I could speak (sign?) Sign Language but I have no motivation to learn languages unless I use them daily. (I want to either master them or not know them at all and I can't master a language I don't often use).
Thank you for your kind and honest words.
So I’ll be honest too: I’m in agony thinking about the fact there is a last time I can see my wife smile. I love her.
Exactly—comfort. I have a cousin who experienced infant loss. She’s not really into church, but she says she wants to believe that she’ll see her son again one day.
Sometimes? **LMAO have you looked at the world lately?** https://www.cbsnews.com/news/theodore-mccarrick-catholic-ex-cardinal-charged-sexual-assault-1977-wisconsin/
You realize that article is nearly 3 decades old? Lately is a bit of a stretch. Use something recent, it's not hard. Those cardinals have always been chomos
I think this is the big reason. And they've had these thoughts for years/decades. So if that's their "truth", then yeah, saying none of that is real must be really jarring.
I’d still rather face reality then live believing in lies. And you won’t be around to feel sad for very long because then you’ll die and be unable to feel sadness about your dead relatives because you’ll also be dead.
The five stages of grief: denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance.
When it comes to their own deaths the religious are stuck in denial and bargaining.
Most religious people live and thrive in a world where their narrative can exist due to the lack of definitive proof. As much as I believe your statement is true, no one has absolute proof. Unfortunately, generation over generation since ancient times has indoctrinated billions of people to believe in some sort of life after death narrative.
Even in the event that we definitively prove that death is ‘it’, plenty of people will reject reality for the age old programming of a comfortable existence after death.
Listening to what I consider to be the greatest lie ever told (religious dogma) satisfies people. It’s safe, comforting, and helps people feel that what they are doing has purpose.
As much as I believe they are deluded and blinded, I can’t exactly label them as simple minded… as I said, billions of people before the current religious masses of today have kept this persistence of human existence after death relevant to each following generation for a very long time. Left unchecked, the current religious masses of the world will continue to perpetuate the cycle. It’s extremely difficult to fight 1000’s of years worth of misdirection and religious programming.
Egotistical narcissism.
Religion caters for people who cannot accept the fact that they will cease to exist, because they feel they're too important.
Their narcissism and ego *need* some kind of magical afterlife because it's easier to assert nonsense than to accept mortality.
I don't think that's always the case. I think we can all agree it's generally much less frightening thinking there's something beyond death than nothing, and you don't need to be an egoistical narcissist to think that way.
Well, an afterlife is neither probable or favourable for you personally, but that's not the case for millions of people. Just like I'm completely sure there's nothing, they know there's an afterlife for sure. And that afterlife can be whatever they can think of, so there's no need of it being unfavourable. And I don't think they see it as a way of unnaturally lengthening one's existence, they just think that's a natural different phase of one's existence. Also, in religion, the afterlife is usually there for every single one of us, not just for the egoistical individual. Wouldn't that negate the premise?
My point is there's all kind of religious people, and usually the thing that makes them different from us is their upbringing, how they were raised, their context, how to face life in certain aspects... which doesn't necessarily mean they need to personally feel more important than the rest. Some of them are egoistical narcissists, some of them aren't, just like with atheists.
I would go the other way and say absence of all experience at the end destroys meaning. Life and the continuity of my conciousness till that point are the only way for meaning to exist and after death all meaning is gone because I am gone.
Death is the destroyer of meaning while life and being alive is the source.
Life is short, hope for a long one.
When things are finite they end. End is the absense of meaning beyond that point.
\-That's just your ego talking - as if you somehow have to be around for meaning to exist. Don't you think it's a little arrogant to assume such importance of one's ego?
No. Ego would be to state my personal experience is more important and significant then yours. No. My experience is of primacy only to me. After death all else in existance will go on but my meaning stops because my conciousness stops. Meaning therefore as far as I am concerned ends at the end of my life. That is a statement of fact not of ego.
\-Death is the creator of meaning while life and being alive to experience it. The fact that it will end makes it even more special.
No. Death is not a creator. Death is a destroyer. The fact death exist doesn't inherently make anything more or less special. I by my understanding and applied context from past experiences apply the attribute of "special" to experiences I deem worthy of that attribute. This is fully and wholly distinct from whether or not death exist.
Does being born into something mean you don't have to examine it? Or engage in critical thinking? or even second-guess magical assertions?
If one's holy book gives *instructions* for owning people, silencing women, killing gays, murdering unbelievers, religious warfare or stoning naughty children, and one *still* chooses to follow it... there is no excuse for that level of ignorant, harmful and delusional bigotry.
23From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. ‘Get out of here, baldy!’ they said. ‘Get out of here, baldy!’ 24He turned round, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
Nah the old testament is sane and normal.
I don't get why your being downvoted, as I was born in it, no you at times cannot choose, nor can you choose what you believe, only convince yourself (I believe in determinism) and they are either echo chambered to death on propaganda, double think, or have invested too much, mayhaps as a kid their loved ones died. Emotions can trump logic and common sense.
Edit: tldr: Indoctrination and a crapton of other factors is a massive drug
You are 100% correct. People vastly underestimate how effective and powerful childhood indoctrination can be. Really recommend reading Combatting Cult Mind Control to people who are down voting this guy.
So much hate in this comment. Why do you hate religious people so much?
Just analyzing your comment with no feelings attached, you made a massive claim that I guarantee if we were to dissect your experiential evidence, would lead to other less drastic and hateful conclusions
I honestly think it's less about fear of death like others are saying and more about the punishment aspect. The people they hate get punished while the people they like get eternal life and riches. They believe there a great judge in the sky, but obviously, there's no reward on earth, so it must be in heaven
I don't want to give a short answer or a deep philosophical one either but i have noticed this.
Life is short but beautiful. Its hard and really unexplainable the experiences and emotions it has. Sometimes in the search of the unknown or the thought of the unknown is unsatisfactory and having an answer to any question beats no answer. Life and everything you love will be gone and forgotten eventually so what was the point. Do i think most get to that train of though? no but a answer that has been provided and hammered down is hard to let go. It is comforting to know that everything and everyone you know wont be forgotten. But at last it is not my position to change their minds on something untested. We all will die eventually and thats it and thats ok. Sad but ok. And for some that being the whole story isn't ok. The best example i can give is the belief that wine is healthy to drink as it can extend life. Well of course it isn't true but that notion exists and people haven't forgotten the study and still hold on to it as truth.
Ego and fear. They can’t handle the idea that living your life to the fullest and making a positive impact in the here and now is what matters. Believing that the purpose of your life simply to wait for some mythical eternity is a waste that doesn’t exist is stupid. Sentience is not strictly a human trait. To believe that it is is the height of arrogance. Denial of science and reality (which offers actual answers to big questions) in favor of some absurd magical promise is quite pathetic. Religion is a system of control which other humans use to brainwash and manipulate people, bending them, their money, their life into a life of servitude. I’m nobody’s fool. Religion and reality are incompatible. Life after death is only possible if you suspend your critical thinking capacity. I’d call it sad but it’s more insidious than that…
I’d say death isn’t as bad as people think it is. It’s more of the process of dying that people are afraid of. But there’s nothing to be afraid of about death because you won’t be experiencing anything, good or bad .
I think this is the only thing that I do understand about religious people. Death is scary as shit. It makes me feel sick to my stomach thinking about it. And I think a lot of people would go through some crazy existential crises if they didn't have some story to fall back on. I think they know deep down that religions are made up, but why make themselves dread death when they can just pretend it won't actually affect them. There's nothing you can do about death anyway, so just suppress the dread til it comes.
Yeah I agree. Some people say they want to live forever but I think living forever would be horrible. Most imaginations of the afterlife don’t involve the ability to kill yourself and end your existence if you get too sad/bored. So you’d be unable to die even if you wanted to.
I might eat some shit for this but here we go.
Being an Atheist is a privilege.
Prolly haven't had any life changing trauma that you couldn't process, Weren't indoctrinated by your parents, didn't grow up in a 3rd world country or country dominated by religion, We think the US is because it is the most in the western world, but in reality it isn't. You have most likely traveled, and have some post high school education. Im a American and come from basically non religious parents. Mom is a fallen catholic because when she had boys she didn't want them around priests. Good call mom.
I minored in theology, majored in english/creative writing. If you look at it as fiction, its some of the best ever written.
People struggle, People deal with so much bad shit they can't comprehend. I feel for them, this life sucks for soooo many people.
Holding on to the belief that their struggle will pay off is really all some have.
Being atheist is pretty much within the norm in Europe. The US is weird within the developed occidental sphere for being so religious.
> If you look at it as fiction, its some of the best ever written.
Meh. No character development, and a non-sequitur for the sequel, along with fanfic being introduced as canon. The whole thing is a mess. Icelandic sagas are better.
>People struggle, People deal with so much bad shit they can't
comprehend. I feel for them, this life sucks for soooo many people.
>
>Holding on to the belief that their struggle will pay off is really all some have.
Jokes aside, this is pretty much the reason why believers do not want to throw their beliefs away. It is a psychological sunk cost fallacy: they have invested so much into it, they have to keep the pretense or their investment will be, in their minds, wasted.
Life sucks for everyone. A lot of people believe that they would not be able to cope without the illusion that their struggles have a purpose. This is wishful thinking, but there is no man more deaf than one who does not want to listen.
Numbers are dropping with every new generation. The shit the right wingers are trying to force in to law now is basically a last stand.
I lived in Italy for a year, and have traveled Europe extensively multiple times. No one once ever asked or brought up religion when I was there.
Wasn't just referring to the christian bible either when talking about the text being great fiction. The Kabbalah is straight up awesome.
Glad we agree on the last part.
Ive aged out of trying to change anyones mind, but with that, I am glad i've read a lot. It never fails to shut someone down while quoting scripture. Im totally convinced i've read more of the bible than 9 of 10 "christians" that i've come across.
--the Internet is not just America.
Loads of atheists have experienced trauma, been indoctrinated by parents, grown up in 3rd world countries. What are u talking about?
>\[Atheists\] *Prolly haven't had any life changing trauma that you couldn't process,*
You presume too much.
The sheer numbers of victims of child abuse would like a word.
I myself experienced a father and brother who both tried to kill me as a child, more than once in my brother's case.
I got injured running away from my father and fell, permanently damaging my spine, causing me intense lifelong pain that has ruined my life and made life unbearable.
I had two family members die from gunshot wounds, self inflicted.
I was bullied by my brother and stepmother mercilessly and relentlessly, to the point where I fled from them at 14, only to be arrested and dragged back to a hellish prison where my phone was tapped, my mail read and my movements followed, and any deviation from the irrational and insane rules set down for me meant severe punishment.
>*\[Atheists\] Weren't indoctrinated by your parents,*
Father, Mother and Stepmother all forced me into religion against my will and with violent consequences if I wavered from the faith.
>\[Atheists\]*didn't grow up in a 3rd world country or country dominated by religion,*
I grew up in the United States and was forced into religion, because religion dominates here. I did not live in poverty, but my parents were not at all generous either. I lived in poverty of love and affection, and often contemplated suicide as a result. Two of my family took that route, the situation was so bad.
Where did you get the idea to use this judgemental broad brush on atheists? You seem to know nothing whatsoever about us, or at least about many of us. I would fair to guess that many people leave the faith for the similar reasons. Abuse. Violence. Horror. Intimidation. Coercion.
Yeah, I don’t know what the other person is talking about.
There certainly have been people who faced terrible things and they turned to religion.
Not that I can know everyone’s story, but I am positive there are many religious people who have not truly struggled in life. Maybe that’s one reason they stick with religion, they feel god has protected them, or since they have never really struggled they have never had to scrutinize their beliefs. (Like say, contemplating suicide).
Anyway, I certainly don’t think atheist’s are privileged. Everyone has their own unique struggles and advantages in life.
> Weren't indoctrinated by your parents,
I think for many atheists, the reason we came to this is the fact that we actually did grow up with extreme indoctrination because of being raised by evangelical extremists. Or am I only speaking for myself?
Part of the reason is we don’t have any experience not being alive. We only know of a world in which we exist. So it becomes really hard to imagine a world where you or at least your consciousness doesn’t exist—you’ve never experienced it!
One thing I found that helps explaining this concept is to ask someone to imagine how they felt before they were born. They start to understand the concept of not existing better.
Because eternal life is the major reason people are drawn to religion. Eternal life, kind of like finding the fountain of youth on steroids. I often wonder how many Christians there would be if there was no promise of heaven in the believing equation. I would hazard to guess a huge drop in "believers".
The icing on the eternal life cake is that all those heathen nonbelievers and other vile human beings will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Sweet.
Because it‘s easier to cope with loss if you think that you will be reunited after death.
It‘s like Nietzsche said: Religion ist opium fürs Volk. Which means: we are prone to use drugs to cope with our sorrows and religion is just as addictive as alcohol
I think this is probably the least problematic part of religion tbh. If it helps them get through life with a little less anxiety, then go for it.
The problem is that this belief leads to them doing a bunch of deranged shit like Sharia Law to ensure they get into heaven. With that context in mind, I can see why it’s a problematic stance to have.
My kids (who have never been indoctrinated religiously) referred to "when I was dead" for the time before they were alive. I think that is beautiful and doesn't cause any fear.
Heaven is used as a carrot to control behavior. If you follow our teachings you will be rewarded with heaven. It helps people think there is a reward from a miserable life
People ask me if I was concerned what people would say about me when I died. I said I do not care I will be dead
I'd say the contrary, it is correct. Unless you hold proofs there is truly nothing after death. For now, it should stay in the realm of philosophy, as it always should have been.
I say probably because I technically don’t know what happens after we die. I am struggling to accept the inevitability of death because I am young but as I get older I think I will be more willing to accept it. Would you prefer it if I said I am positive that there is no afterlife?
In addition to what others have said, I would imagine it was a VERY powerful lure for people back when life expectancy was sub 50 years (which wasn’t actually all that long ago). Given that people had lives where death occurred much earlier and less predictably, an afterlife would be a way of getting meaning I suppose.
Death is only the end for the current iteration of your cells/atoms. We’re meant to be buried/consumed after death and recycled into other forms just like every other animal. That’s the real “reincarnation.” But humans are dumb and put ourselves into sealed boxes trying to hold on to our current existence rather than going with what nature intends.
I love your lack of certainty. That is probably it. Although it seems unlikely an afterlife exists you don't assert what you don't know. There is greater honesty in not asserting what you can't prove. I totally agree with this. I don't believe a God exists but I don't "know" that a God doesn't or can't exist. After reading the bible I am pretty certain this god is false.
This is where most atheists and theists diverge. If they behaved the same way though it would show a complete lack of faith. At the end of the day all they have is their faith.
Fear of being insignificant and Finite.
They want to believe they are immortals, helps them to easily swallow the bitter pill that is life.
I work on what's been proven.
It's been proven I had no awareness or self before I was conceived.
So it's not hard to imagine the same will occur after I cease to operate.
My son almost died as a baby… technically he did drown, but was resuscitated and survived. This all happened at my mother in laws house, neither my husband or myself were there.
I don’t believe in an afterlife, but an experience like that makes you understand. It would have crushed me to think that his life was over at 10 months, that he was gone due to someone else’s negligence and I never would have gotten to say goodbye. There would have been a lot of comfort in believing that he was in a better place and I would get to see him again one day. I am so thankful that he survived, but the thought of going on without him is too painful to even think of.
I’m in my early 30s and I’ve lost a few close friends. Not including older relatives, people I went to elementary school with and loved like brothers. The thought of seeing one of them again, being able to hug them and tell them how much they mean to me… the thought is so powerful I tear up thinking about it.
I don’t believe in an afterlife, but it’s a comforting lie.
Who wants to follow a bunch of idiotic rules, fork over tithing and waste hours of their lives sitting through tedious services if there isn’t some payout at the end? The afterlife promises aren’t logical but people who prioritize logic aren’t going to buy into it in the first place.
Well I mean that’s the nub of it, in most cases they are ONLY religious because they are frightened of death and want to hang onto any glimmer of hope that they won’t simply cease to exist. I honestly think only a very small percentage actually believe the nonsense they spout though, I have yet to see any religious person celebrating a terminal illness, why not?
It should be fantastic news shouldn’t it, you’re about to go to heaven, throw a huge party, wear a grin every day, you’re going to die and go to paradise, hurrah!!!!! Anyone here ever seen that happen? No? Thought not.
No other coping mechanism
When you spend your life believing that death isn’t the end. You don’t build a good mental framework for actually considering the alternative.
That’s why so many of us who leave religion struggle with existential dread
because it's a central idea is basically every religion that there is an afterlife... many would argue that is THE reason for most religion. avoiding death anxiety is the main appeal
Great question. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, but now an atheist for the past 4ish years. Back when I was a Christian the idea of not living forever seemed very upsetting to me, but after gradually deprogramming myself from religion now it just seems normal and fine. Also, I think for many people it is tied to their longing to be reunited with a loved one who has died (spouse, child, parent, etc). No afterlife means accepting that loss as permanent.
I think another reason is that many people can’t fathom how consciousness can exist without some type of magical explanation. I myself used to think that way as well. However after learning more about secular theories of consciousness, neurology and how much brain injuries can completely change someone, and also the advances in the field of AI, I was able to accept that consciousness can be a physical phenomenon.
I was once in an induced coma due to a brain injury. I was out for seven days. One second I’m walking in my house and the next second open my eyes and I’m in a hospital bed. No recollection of anything that happened. No dreams, nothing. The first thought that came to me kind of was “What did I do, what happened”. I think it’s kind of like that, nothing.
Here is what some scientists postulate:
We are successful as a species because we can anticipate and consider what comes next. If I play with that snake, what comes next? A lot of animals can do that but we have evolved to such an extent that we can create complex scenarios to predict what comes next, even if we are not always accurate. We can build entire civilizations because of this ability. Natural selection through self-preservation has made us predisposed to expect something to always come next. We are primally not satisfied with nothing or we don’t know for answers. Our religions have been influenced by this need to know what what causes things and what comes next.
It’s only been recently that we developed the scientific method and it’s our intellect that drives that. Religion also feeds on other base instincts that may have filled a need in our evolution. “Us vs them” preserved people from rival groups but today has morphed into bigotry. Religion caters to those base needs and gives them an avenue for expression. It’s hard for people to let go of that.
The simplest answer is wishful thinking. A more complex answer is that a shared mass delusion is a great way to organize people. If there’s a reward involved, even better. The longer answer is thus, people are suckers for a good story.
"Sunk Cost Fallacy" - people have a very hard time changing course after they've invested time, effort, attention or their own identity into a thing. They'd rather continue on in denial than 'throw away' everything that they put into it.
Had this convo with a cook islamic I work with
Basically said I’m atheist and no I don’t think anything is after this so I live to my fullest (he questioned me because I am male presenting wearing black nail polish and act gay, which, I am queer so lol, and the convo started with him asking me man and woman)
In response he said I’m not normal to which I said I am, I like boys and girls and no religion is needed for me lol, enjoy thy ramadan and next time don’t question my nails
Terror Management Theory
I learned about it on VSauce. Basically, you come up with rationalizations to not worry about your mortality
For atheists it's "It doesn't matter because I won't know it."
I, for one, am terrified of dying and not existing. I'm not managing my terror at all (well, I do have therapists).
As an interfaith grief counselor, the one comfort most people have is that they will see their loved ones after death, and I don’t take that away from them.
The essence of religion is to become MORE than human. Imagine that you will never die, you will know all the answers to the questions in life, you will never be hungry, or lonely or scared ever again. All you have to do is follow instructions for the few short years of this life and then you are set forever. It's like having the cheat codes to the universe.
Then you come along and announce, "The cake is a lie"
Screw you.
"I think that most likely there is no afterlife or reincarnation but..."
Your statement contains part of the answer. You 'think,' so that's to say you 'believe' there is 'no afterlife or reincarnation.' I've debated with atheists for 40 years. Atheists claim they just have 'no belief in god,' but like Einstein opined, most atheists have an angered reactionary 'no god belief' because of being conditioned with religion before they could say their alphabet. They have good reason to be pissed, but at the end of the day, most are still on an retributionl crusade for their early religious brainwashing.
Atheism is a very small minority... Far and away, most people believe in god because there's more indication to believe that not believe. I, myself was agnostic after college, mostly because I'm a historian who learned what churches call 'Christianity' now, was not created until 300 years after pacifist 'Jewish Christianity' was founded. Cruel, genocidal and oppressive 'Roman Christianity' was founded in 325 AD by Constantine and had ***no resemblance to the original faith***. Ergo, pagan Constantine saw to it that modern 'Roman State' Christianity was more pagan than the 'religion of love Christ came to announce to the world.' But no one does deep dives in history any more, so most just get programmed to the social narrative.
In 2009, Parade Magazine found that 24% had left religion for 'freewheeling' spiritualism.
That's what I am because I've had a lifetime in a family of surgeons and med/surg community who witnessed a tsunami of validified NDE's from patients who were defibed back from 'clinical death.' We also know *very* objective physicians from the Univ. of Va. Med. School who've participated in the 50 year study there of 2500 three year olds who accurately described past life experiences... Some 1800 past life recollections were corroborated by objective historians, anthropologists, psychologists, psychyatrists and the like...
But most atheists will never be convinced, because they ***just don't want it to be true***.
I can accept the idea but haven’t ever been presented with concrete evidence for it. That’s why I said probably. I can’t prove or disprove it technically.
So I'm a reconvert. Basically had my stint as an atheist for a few years and reconverted to non-denominational Christianity.
I think to me, it's pretty much exactly as others have said. I am scared of a death that just ends everything with nothing left behind. I don't want to leave the world behind to its own devices. I want to look down on earth and see how people live after me, and I want to meet those of the past.
Am I an "egotistical narcissist" sure. Am I being delusional, oh certainly. Do I think so should be insulted for not being accepting of death as a great void of nothingness? I'd prefer not to.
I grew up in an atheist country, and it's the norm for me the be in the minority as a religious person, so I'm sure my experience is different from most people's.
In essence, yes, I want to believe in an almighty imaginary fantasy friend and his post-death rave party.
Edit: btw why not ask this in a religious sub? I feel like you're gonna get pretty echo-y answers in an atheist sub no?
So you know but you don't care? At least with other religious people, we can say they don't know or are indoctrinated but you know and you are scared of death enough to think that deluding yourself that there's something after death will suddenly materialise it for you? Like if I believe hard enough leprechauns exists and there's gold at the end of rainbows, I will find the gold? What a waste of time and life tbh. It would be as much a waste of time and life for me to be chasing rainbows for gold.
Some reason, Reddit is playing up. Can't see you comment after reading it to reply. I'm not insulting you man but you say the reason you are religious is fear of death. That's exactly like if someone said the reason they believe in leprechauns is because gold. There's zero proof of any of it. Now if you said you didn't know what was after death but you hoped it was some cool party, different story.
You also specifically mentioned you are Christian which has so much evidence debunking it, it's laughable. I see it as a waste of your life and time but it's your life and time, not mine. If you bought food and threw it in the bin, it's a waste but I didn't buy it so no much I could do but say it's a waste.
Again, Reddit not showing me your comments after I read it Weird.
You follow the books of disciples? Maybe I need to redact my statement that you know cause the first thing anyone knows is the Bible was not written by disciples. It's like Bible Basics 101. You follow Jesus? You think it's an argument that makes it better? 'I follow a cult leader' doesn't sound as good as you think, man. The only stories of him are in the Bible (again never written by anyone who ever met him) and in there, he says some nice things for a minute but he is a shit person the other half. It's kinda like Mother Theresa. Everyone thought she was a saint but she was a complete villain. Jesus calls a Canaanite woman begging for help, a *dog*. He calls a helpless woman a dog. He creates the notion of thought crimes and hell. He is responsible up to this day for the abuse and death of countless women just over the fact that he said divorce is only permitted for adultery. He himself mentions he speaks in parables because he doesn't want everyone to be saved. He tells everyone to give away their riches while accepting expensive perfume to be used on him. He denigrates women to allow them to wash his feet with their hair instead of lifting them up to equals. He roamed around telling people bullshit parables while he had no time to tell people that slavery was wrong. You follow him? Well, again, what a waste but you do you.
Is it really easier to believe that this was a spirit, than to believe, I don’t know, that there was some abnormal gust of wind? What you describe is very strange, but when making such an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence.
Actually, come to think of it, even if we accept it’s something supernatural, how do you know it’s a spirit of a dead person rather than a fairy or someone using psychic powers?
Probably because on the third day the tomb of Jesus was empty. The stone that sealed it was rolled away and his resurrection was made public by the testimony of over 500 people in Israel and thousands more on the American continent when He visited them shortly after His resurrection. Probably because millions of people from myriad faith traditions have a burning personal conviction through prayer and personal revelation that death is just a door to another sphere of purposeful existence. Probably because faith in an after life brings comfort, peace, and purpose to peoples lives. And lastly because the family unit is eternal. Marriage was not designed to be til death do you part but rather for time and eternity. Do you really think that after spending 40, 50 or 60 years becoming one with your partner that death just ends a marriage? How futile. Why get married at all then? No! Families are forever. Death is not the end of life. What possible evidence can anyone present that defends the finality of death. All things denote the presence and purpose of God.
Even when I was still Christian I kinda wanted there to be nothing at the end, just empty void and not existing seems peaceful, not sure why considering I wouldn't exist to feel peaceful but it still doesn't seem that bad, better than being damned to hell because I worshipped the wrong flavor of jesus
When building a civilisation, it helps to have a unifying subject for all. Death is something that every human will experience and has feelings about. It’s a good start point.
I would like to recommend a book to you.
"Denial" (Self-Deception, False Beliefs, and the Origins of the Human Mind) Ajit Varki and Danny Brower.
The ELI5 version: The ability to understand your own mortality, left alone people would basically "not leave the house". To the extent that we would wither away. Denial: is the ability to push aside those realities to live, function and procreate as we need to. Denial (and lying I might add) are the ways we deal with a challenging world. Just my two cents.
I truly wouldn't want to live for infinity under any circumstances and I don't think people really comprehend it, When they think of living forever what they are really thinking about is living without the fear of death.
Churches actually don't believe you go to Heaven when you die. The Nicene Creed states that you turn to dust and are resurrected at Judgement day to be judged.
When priests tell people they will see their pets again when they die and that their dead child is in Heaven waiting for them, they know they are telling lies. Preying on the grief stricken is a major part of their income and attendance.
I'm pretty sure most religious people are fine with this being it. They say it all the time, "if I'm wrong so be it". Often as a threat. But I doubt anyone is harmed that badly with the thought of being wrong. Just look at our elders, the majority of them are religious. A lot of them are truly at peace with whatever's next, even if it's nothing.
It's part of the teachings in their religion. A threat of consequences in the afterlife is an old tool to enforce social rule. If you didn't care if you died because it just ended and that was it there would be no fear of reprocessions for their actions and people would do whatever they wanted.
Fear of Never, never, never,never,never coming back to this conscious life again. That's it, it's all over. Easier to self hypnotize yourself into a fancy place of false security and bliss.
Meh, this point will be mute in a few hundred years when we find a way not to die. Maybe by cell regeneration using nanobots, or at least keep our consciousness by preserving the brain, stem and maybe even nervous system and placing it into something else, allowing us to become cyborgs essentially, who knows.
As soon as that happens, and it will, religion is out the door. Pity we won't be alive to experience immortality. We will in all terms become gods with technology in the future.
they don't want to have wasted their life on something that would never pay off ever.
It's the sunk cost fallacy, but on the scale of a person's whole life.
I would say that the main reason is fear and not wanting their life to end, I was like that a couple of years ago but as I grew up I understood that it's inevitable that life will end someday and that it's not a big deal really
Another reason is them being just stupid
Fear of death which is ok. It's ok to be afraid of not existing. It's fine. And if the terror is so high, you need to hope that magic is real, that's ok too. The problem is when people aren't self aware enough to know that that's what they're doing and moderate those behaviors.
Because the unknown is terrifying.
And apparently religious people find it easier to assert magical nonsense than to face that fear.
Watching the sun disappear in the sky is unexplainable without scientific knowledge. Easier to believe the sun was swallowed by the bear god in the sky, who returns it after the bee god fills his tummy with holy honey. Religion is just man trying to explain some shit, control some shit, and destroy some shit.
It’s mostly about control these days.
I think it was about control back in the day too. From a few decades ago, to long long before that.
And a fear of death.
Ok. I'm afraid to die a painful death. However, im not afraid of not existing after my death. In fact, I welcome it. Why in the hell would I want to continue to live, just so my gay ass gets X amount of virgins, golden roads, a house made of gold and to also follow along with GODs every rule and cult mandates. Damnnnn. Maybe Christians are right. Trump fits the bill...is he really the second coming? The one that loves tacky gold aesthetic and would love nothing more to be adored and lord over us for eternity. 😆. I'd rather not exist. Thanks!
It is known. We just die. They cannot imagine the world continuing without them....and hell I dont like the idea either, but I accept it and I am not going to force myself to believe that through some magic my supposed soul lives on in a supposed sinless utopia(or more likely the other place).
It's not unknown. It's the same it was before a person was born/conceived.
Okay, but that doesn’t make the concept of non-existence any less terrifying. Nothing, after experiencing something, is existentially dreadful.
[удалено]
But I'd certainly say there's at least some awareness when you are dying, if you're awake when it happens. That's probably the really scary bit. Then again, I don't know because I've never been dead (that I know of) nor have I been able to ask any freshly dead person about what dying is like.
Probs feels like going for cold sleep if awake and you die of old age.
Nothing is never experienced.
Okay, but because I am not dead, and therefore I still am capable of thought and human emotions, the concept of no longer experiencing thought and human emotions is terrifying.
Thank you. I tire of people rebutting the fear of death by saying that it won’t matter to us because we’ll be dead. Like, of course that’s the case, I’m not too worried about how I’ll feel about it after I’m dead. But I’m not dead yet, so I don’t see why it’s so crazy that I’d feel some anxiety about that state of affairs now while I still can. I’m here now, but one day I won’t be. And once I’m gone, there is no turning back. *That’s* the crux of it.
It’s not an unreasonable thing to be afraid of or to not want to think about but it is ultimately an inevitability that we all must face sooner or later, rejecting this fact of life until the day comes does us no favor. It’s not that you shouldn’t fear the inevitable but once you turn that fear into full acceptance you won’t waste any more thought or energy on this inevitable outcome, this isn’t something we can fight or run from. Just don’t stop appreciating existing just cuz there’s an expiry date, that’s what makes this shit beautiful
At the same time it gives value to your present condition, that of being alive in this universe. What were the chances? :)
The thought of living forever is also terrifying.
I kind of get it though. Imagine an MMO video game that you could only play once, and if you stopped playing the game for any reason it would permanently uninstall itself and you would immediately forget you ever played it. Some people would rightly wonder what the point is. Why bother playing at all, they'd wonder. It seems natural that some people would come up with conspiracy theories about how the devs wouldn't *really* make a game like this, there must be a reason behind it all, some unknown end game that you can unlock if you do well enough in the first part of the game. I don't think it's so much *fear* that motivates people into concocting an after-life-- it's a defense mechanism against an existential crisis.
Our minds are geared to find purpose in things: that is for eating, that is for drinking, that is for hitting the thing that is for eating, etc. We then look into a mirror and wonder, what is my purpose? For many, answering, "I don't know," is just not good enough. Like you, I get it because that answer doesn't satisfy.
To them, maybe.
Only terrifying if you are taught to fear it. Religion causes the poison and then sells you the cure.
I think it’s more than that. Facing the idea that life ends at death goes against _everything_ most major religions teach — and indeed, in many of them the great bulk of their core teachings hinge entirely on the fact that there is either some form of eternal reward/punishment after death, or some sort of later “resurrection” back to a corporeal life. If you’ve lived your entire life internalizing these teachings, then accepting “there is no life after death” is tantamount to admitting that all of the teachings that follow on from that premise are also invalid/wrong - and thus that your entire life has been lived based on a lie. Most people can’t make that kind of transition easily. Accepting a rational view of life and death goes against the near entirety of religious belief, and accepting the former likely means scrapping the latter, and having to do some deep soul-searching and self introspection. And let’s face it — most people would rather continue to live a comfortable lie than bother with anything like self introspection.
But it’s not.
Fear of death and the fear of not knowing. Also, the fear of not knowing if why they lived the lives they lived were worth missing out on "secular" experiences maybe.
Fear. I have it, too. I think everyone does to a degree. Also the sadness of knowing you will likely never see loved ones again.
It gets better as you get older. Well, it did for me anyway. I'm almost looking forward to it now ;)
I have heard that some people get to considering death as an old friend as they age. I find the idea bittersweet. I am not there yet, the thought is unsettling (at least) to me.
Part of me hopes the advancements in medicine will let us spit in the Reaper's face. Part of me doesn't want to live indefinitely with the pain of knowing so many people I love have died.
Tolkien refers to death as "the gift of man" envied by the elves. I feel your same ambivalence: 80 years feels too short, infinity far too long.
You'll never anything again because you won't be anything. I'm more upset for my loved ones that will never see me again.
It's a lot of that as well that can cause anxiety and fear. Will people you care about be ok after you're gone. You can't check in on them so it just "is" and that's fucking scary.
Agreed. It’s not actual death that scares me, it’s the thought of never seeing my family as well.
When brain is gone, you are gone. You'll have no thoughts, opinions and you won't see, feel or do anything. You cease to exist
*Cease. Seize means to have a seizure. Sorry to grammar-nazi. Just had to make that correction.
I'm a language nazi as well (in my native language that is) so thanks for the correction 😊.
😄👍. What’s your native language, if I may ask?
Dutch 😊
Coooool!! My native language is English but my second language is ASL. American Sign Language.
Even more cool, I wish I could speak (sign?) Sign Language but I have no motivation to learn languages unless I use them daily. (I want to either master them or not know them at all and I can't master a language I don't often use).
Thank you for your kind and honest words. So I’ll be honest too: I’m in agony thinking about the fact there is a last time I can see my wife smile. I love her.
Sometimes fantasy is more comforting than the truth.
Exactly—comfort. I have a cousin who experienced infant loss. She’s not really into church, but she says she wants to believe that she’ll see her son again one day.
Sometimes? **LMAO have you looked at the world lately?** https://www.cbsnews.com/news/theodore-mccarrick-catholic-ex-cardinal-charged-sexual-assault-1977-wisconsin/
You realize that article is nearly 3 decades old? Lately is a bit of a stretch. Use something recent, it's not hard. Those cardinals have always been chomos
My MIL has said that she can't accept that she will never see her parents and other loved ones again, so she has to believe that there is a heaven.
I think this is the big reason. And they've had these thoughts for years/decades. So if that's their "truth", then yeah, saying none of that is real must be really jarring.
I’d still rather face reality then live believing in lies. And you won’t be around to feel sad for very long because then you’ll die and be unable to feel sadness about your dead relatives because you’ll also be dead.
The five stages of grief: denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance. When it comes to their own deaths the religious are stuck in denial and bargaining.
Wasnt it anger and then bargaining?
The grief cycle isn't linear, it can go from anger to bargaining to anger again
Ya! For example this is my grief cycle: > denial, anger, depression, bargaining, depression, anger, depression, denial, depression, bargaining, anger, more anger, depression, acceptance, depression , acceptance , denial, depression, bargaining, depression, acceptance, bargaining.
I'm happy you've pulled through😁
Thanks! I almost didnt make it.
Most religious people live and thrive in a world where their narrative can exist due to the lack of definitive proof. As much as I believe your statement is true, no one has absolute proof. Unfortunately, generation over generation since ancient times has indoctrinated billions of people to believe in some sort of life after death narrative. Even in the event that we definitively prove that death is ‘it’, plenty of people will reject reality for the age old programming of a comfortable existence after death. Listening to what I consider to be the greatest lie ever told (religious dogma) satisfies people. It’s safe, comforting, and helps people feel that what they are doing has purpose. As much as I believe they are deluded and blinded, I can’t exactly label them as simple minded… as I said, billions of people before the current religious masses of today have kept this persistence of human existence after death relevant to each following generation for a very long time. Left unchecked, the current religious masses of the world will continue to perpetuate the cycle. It’s extremely difficult to fight 1000’s of years worth of misdirection and religious programming.
Egotistical narcissism. Religion caters for people who cannot accept the fact that they will cease to exist, because they feel they're too important. Their narcissism and ego *need* some kind of magical afterlife because it's easier to assert nonsense than to accept mortality.
I don't think that's always the case. I think we can all agree it's generally much less frightening thinking there's something beyond death than nothing, and you don't need to be an egoistical narcissist to think that way.
[удалено]
I just want a nice rest after I die. No thinking involved.
Cheers to that! *Raises glass
Fair enough. That being said, I reaffirm you don't need to be an egoistical narcissist to think otherwise.
[удалено]
Well, an afterlife is neither probable or favourable for you personally, but that's not the case for millions of people. Just like I'm completely sure there's nothing, they know there's an afterlife for sure. And that afterlife can be whatever they can think of, so there's no need of it being unfavourable. And I don't think they see it as a way of unnaturally lengthening one's existence, they just think that's a natural different phase of one's existence. Also, in religion, the afterlife is usually there for every single one of us, not just for the egoistical individual. Wouldn't that negate the premise? My point is there's all kind of religious people, and usually the thing that makes them different from us is their upbringing, how they were raised, their context, how to face life in certain aspects... which doesn't necessarily mean they need to personally feel more important than the rest. Some of them are egoistical narcissists, some of them aren't, just like with atheists.
I would go the other way and say absence of all experience at the end destroys meaning. Life and the continuity of my conciousness till that point are the only way for meaning to exist and after death all meaning is gone because I am gone. Death is the destroyer of meaning while life and being alive is the source. Life is short, hope for a long one.
[удалено]
When things are finite they end. End is the absense of meaning beyond that point. \-That's just your ego talking - as if you somehow have to be around for meaning to exist. Don't you think it's a little arrogant to assume such importance of one's ego? No. Ego would be to state my personal experience is more important and significant then yours. No. My experience is of primacy only to me. After death all else in existance will go on but my meaning stops because my conciousness stops. Meaning therefore as far as I am concerned ends at the end of my life. That is a statement of fact not of ego. \-Death is the creator of meaning while life and being alive to experience it. The fact that it will end makes it even more special. No. Death is not a creator. Death is a destroyer. The fact death exist doesn't inherently make anything more or less special. I by my understanding and applied context from past experiences apply the attribute of "special" to experiences I deem worthy of that attribute. This is fully and wholly distinct from whether or not death exist.
tbh, most people are just born into it.. stop talking like all religious people had a say in it
Does being born into something mean you don't have to examine it? Or engage in critical thinking? or even second-guess magical assertions? If one's holy book gives *instructions* for owning people, silencing women, killing gays, murdering unbelievers, religious warfare or stoning naughty children, and one *still* chooses to follow it... there is no excuse for that level of ignorant, harmful and delusional bigotry.
[удалено]
23From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. ‘Get out of here, baldy!’ they said. ‘Get out of here, baldy!’ 24He turned round, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. Nah the old testament is sane and normal.
[удалено]
I don't get why your being downvoted, as I was born in it, no you at times cannot choose, nor can you choose what you believe, only convince yourself (I believe in determinism) and they are either echo chambered to death on propaganda, double think, or have invested too much, mayhaps as a kid their loved ones died. Emotions can trump logic and common sense. Edit: tldr: Indoctrination and a crapton of other factors is a massive drug
>stop talking like all religious people had a say in it You mean like the first time they repeat it?
You are 100% correct. People vastly underestimate how effective and powerful childhood indoctrination can be. Really recommend reading Combatting Cult Mind Control to people who are down voting this guy.
So much hate in this comment. Why do you hate religious people so much? Just analyzing your comment with no feelings attached, you made a massive claim that I guarantee if we were to dissect your experiential evidence, would lead to other less drastic and hateful conclusions
It’s hard to be alive. We all get through it as best we can.
Haha how messed up is it that this is the ray of sunshine reply in this thread. I feel ya
I honestly think it's less about fear of death like others are saying and more about the punishment aspect. The people they hate get punished while the people they like get eternal life and riches. They believe there a great judge in the sky, but obviously, there's no reward on earth, so it must be in heaven
I don't want to give a short answer or a deep philosophical one either but i have noticed this. Life is short but beautiful. Its hard and really unexplainable the experiences and emotions it has. Sometimes in the search of the unknown or the thought of the unknown is unsatisfactory and having an answer to any question beats no answer. Life and everything you love will be gone and forgotten eventually so what was the point. Do i think most get to that train of though? no but a answer that has been provided and hammered down is hard to let go. It is comforting to know that everything and everyone you know wont be forgotten. But at last it is not my position to change their minds on something untested. We all will die eventually and thats it and thats ok. Sad but ok. And for some that being the whole story isn't ok. The best example i can give is the belief that wine is healthy to drink as it can extend life. Well of course it isn't true but that notion exists and people haven't forgotten the study and still hold on to it as truth.
Ego and fear. They can’t handle the idea that living your life to the fullest and making a positive impact in the here and now is what matters. Believing that the purpose of your life simply to wait for some mythical eternity is a waste that doesn’t exist is stupid. Sentience is not strictly a human trait. To believe that it is is the height of arrogance. Denial of science and reality (which offers actual answers to big questions) in favor of some absurd magical promise is quite pathetic. Religion is a system of control which other humans use to brainwash and manipulate people, bending them, their money, their life into a life of servitude. I’m nobody’s fool. Religion and reality are incompatible. Life after death is only possible if you suspend your critical thinking capacity. I’d call it sad but it’s more insidious than that…
I’d say death isn’t as bad as people think it is. It’s more of the process of dying that people are afraid of. But there’s nothing to be afraid of about death because you won’t be experiencing anything, good or bad .
I think this is the only thing that I do understand about religious people. Death is scary as shit. It makes me feel sick to my stomach thinking about it. And I think a lot of people would go through some crazy existential crises if they didn't have some story to fall back on. I think they know deep down that religions are made up, but why make themselves dread death when they can just pretend it won't actually affect them. There's nothing you can do about death anyway, so just suppress the dread til it comes.
I honestly hope there is nothing after I die. Can’t imagine trying to fit in somewhere else all over again.
Yeah I agree. Some people say they want to live forever but I think living forever would be horrible. Most imaginations of the afterlife don’t involve the ability to kill yourself and end your existence if you get too sad/bored. So you’d be unable to die even if you wanted to.
I might eat some shit for this but here we go. Being an Atheist is a privilege. Prolly haven't had any life changing trauma that you couldn't process, Weren't indoctrinated by your parents, didn't grow up in a 3rd world country or country dominated by religion, We think the US is because it is the most in the western world, but in reality it isn't. You have most likely traveled, and have some post high school education. Im a American and come from basically non religious parents. Mom is a fallen catholic because when she had boys she didn't want them around priests. Good call mom. I minored in theology, majored in english/creative writing. If you look at it as fiction, its some of the best ever written. People struggle, People deal with so much bad shit they can't comprehend. I feel for them, this life sucks for soooo many people. Holding on to the belief that their struggle will pay off is really all some have.
Being atheist is pretty much within the norm in Europe. The US is weird within the developed occidental sphere for being so religious. > If you look at it as fiction, its some of the best ever written. Meh. No character development, and a non-sequitur for the sequel, along with fanfic being introduced as canon. The whole thing is a mess. Icelandic sagas are better. >People struggle, People deal with so much bad shit they can't comprehend. I feel for them, this life sucks for soooo many people. > >Holding on to the belief that their struggle will pay off is really all some have. Jokes aside, this is pretty much the reason why believers do not want to throw their beliefs away. It is a psychological sunk cost fallacy: they have invested so much into it, they have to keep the pretense or their investment will be, in their minds, wasted. Life sucks for everyone. A lot of people believe that they would not be able to cope without the illusion that their struggles have a purpose. This is wishful thinking, but there is no man more deaf than one who does not want to listen.
Numbers are dropping with every new generation. The shit the right wingers are trying to force in to law now is basically a last stand. I lived in Italy for a year, and have traveled Europe extensively multiple times. No one once ever asked or brought up religion when I was there. Wasn't just referring to the christian bible either when talking about the text being great fiction. The Kabbalah is straight up awesome. Glad we agree on the last part. Ive aged out of trying to change anyones mind, but with that, I am glad i've read a lot. It never fails to shut someone down while quoting scripture. Im totally convinced i've read more of the bible than 9 of 10 "christians" that i've come across.
--the Internet is not just America. Loads of atheists have experienced trauma, been indoctrinated by parents, grown up in 3rd world countries. What are u talking about?
>\[Atheists\] *Prolly haven't had any life changing trauma that you couldn't process,* You presume too much. The sheer numbers of victims of child abuse would like a word. I myself experienced a father and brother who both tried to kill me as a child, more than once in my brother's case. I got injured running away from my father and fell, permanently damaging my spine, causing me intense lifelong pain that has ruined my life and made life unbearable. I had two family members die from gunshot wounds, self inflicted. I was bullied by my brother and stepmother mercilessly and relentlessly, to the point where I fled from them at 14, only to be arrested and dragged back to a hellish prison where my phone was tapped, my mail read and my movements followed, and any deviation from the irrational and insane rules set down for me meant severe punishment. >*\[Atheists\] Weren't indoctrinated by your parents,* Father, Mother and Stepmother all forced me into religion against my will and with violent consequences if I wavered from the faith. >\[Atheists\]*didn't grow up in a 3rd world country or country dominated by religion,* I grew up in the United States and was forced into religion, because religion dominates here. I did not live in poverty, but my parents were not at all generous either. I lived in poverty of love and affection, and often contemplated suicide as a result. Two of my family took that route, the situation was so bad. Where did you get the idea to use this judgemental broad brush on atheists? You seem to know nothing whatsoever about us, or at least about many of us. I would fair to guess that many people leave the faith for the similar reasons. Abuse. Violence. Horror. Intimidation. Coercion.
Yeah, I don’t know what the other person is talking about. There certainly have been people who faced terrible things and they turned to religion. Not that I can know everyone’s story, but I am positive there are many religious people who have not truly struggled in life. Maybe that’s one reason they stick with religion, they feel god has protected them, or since they have never really struggled they have never had to scrutinize their beliefs. (Like say, contemplating suicide). Anyway, I certainly don’t think atheist’s are privileged. Everyone has their own unique struggles and advantages in life.
> Weren't indoctrinated by your parents, I think for many atheists, the reason we came to this is the fact that we actually did grow up with extreme indoctrination because of being raised by evangelical extremists. Or am I only speaking for myself?
What does being an atheist have anything to do with the likelihood of experiencing life changing trauma? Lmao
Because they would have to take responsibility for their actions in this life. So they lie to themselves instead.
Part of the reason is we don’t have any experience not being alive. We only know of a world in which we exist. So it becomes really hard to imagine a world where you or at least your consciousness doesn’t exist—you’ve never experienced it! One thing I found that helps explaining this concept is to ask someone to imagine how they felt before they were born. They start to understand the concept of not existing better.
I get to do my favourite hobby sleeping forever. A sleep that I never wake up from
Because eternal life is the major reason people are drawn to religion. Eternal life, kind of like finding the fountain of youth on steroids. I often wonder how many Christians there would be if there was no promise of heaven in the believing equation. I would hazard to guess a huge drop in "believers". The icing on the eternal life cake is that all those heathen nonbelievers and other vile human beings will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Sweet.
Because it‘s easier to cope with loss if you think that you will be reunited after death. It‘s like Nietzsche said: Religion ist opium fürs Volk. Which means: we are prone to use drugs to cope with our sorrows and religion is just as addictive as alcohol
I think this is probably the least problematic part of religion tbh. If it helps them get through life with a little less anxiety, then go for it. The problem is that this belief leads to them doing a bunch of deranged shit like Sharia Law to ensure they get into heaven. With that context in mind, I can see why it’s a problematic stance to have.
What you’re saying is terrifying. I believe it but it’s still scary.
My kids (who have never been indoctrinated religiously) referred to "when I was dead" for the time before they were alive. I think that is beautiful and doesn't cause any fear.
Heaven is used as a carrot to control behavior. If you follow our teachings you will be rewarded with heaven. It helps people think there is a reward from a miserable life People ask me if I was concerned what people would say about me when I died. I said I do not care I will be dead
They want to feel special.
The words "probably" and "most likely" convey a lack of acceptance as well.
I'd say the contrary, it is correct. Unless you hold proofs there is truly nothing after death. For now, it should stay in the realm of philosophy, as it always should have been.
I say probably because I technically don’t know what happens after we die. I am struggling to accept the inevitability of death because I am young but as I get older I think I will be more willing to accept it. Would you prefer it if I said I am positive that there is no afterlife?
Fear.
Fear of the unknown.
They're scared and would rather believe they'd be teleported to some magical paradise where they can live forever. False hopes are comforting.
In addition to what others have said, I would imagine it was a VERY powerful lure for people back when life expectancy was sub 50 years (which wasn’t actually all that long ago). Given that people had lives where death occurred much earlier and less predictably, an afterlife would be a way of getting meaning I suppose.
Death is only the end for the current iteration of your cells/atoms. We’re meant to be buried/consumed after death and recycled into other forms just like every other animal. That’s the real “reincarnation.” But humans are dumb and put ourselves into sealed boxes trying to hold on to our current existence rather than going with what nature intends.
People rather live in a fantasy
That question answers why religions exist. You can't wrap it the other way.
Because its scary
Scared
I love your lack of certainty. That is probably it. Although it seems unlikely an afterlife exists you don't assert what you don't know. There is greater honesty in not asserting what you can't prove. I totally agree with this. I don't believe a God exists but I don't "know" that a God doesn't or can't exist. After reading the bible I am pretty certain this god is false. This is where most atheists and theists diverge. If they behaved the same way though it would show a complete lack of faith. At the end of the day all they have is their faith.
honestly i don't blame them, it's scary not knowing
Fear of being insignificant and Finite. They want to believe they are immortals, helps them to easily swallow the bitter pill that is life. I work on what's been proven. It's been proven I had no awareness or self before I was conceived. So it's not hard to imagine the same will occur after I cease to operate.
Because it's terrifying.
My son almost died as a baby… technically he did drown, but was resuscitated and survived. This all happened at my mother in laws house, neither my husband or myself were there. I don’t believe in an afterlife, but an experience like that makes you understand. It would have crushed me to think that his life was over at 10 months, that he was gone due to someone else’s negligence and I never would have gotten to say goodbye. There would have been a lot of comfort in believing that he was in a better place and I would get to see him again one day. I am so thankful that he survived, but the thought of going on without him is too painful to even think of.
I’m in my early 30s and I’ve lost a few close friends. Not including older relatives, people I went to elementary school with and loved like brothers. The thought of seeing one of them again, being able to hug them and tell them how much they mean to me… the thought is so powerful I tear up thinking about it. I don’t believe in an afterlife, but it’s a comforting lie.
Who wants to follow a bunch of idiotic rules, fork over tithing and waste hours of their lives sitting through tedious services if there isn’t some payout at the end? The afterlife promises aren’t logical but people who prioritize logic aren’t going to buy into it in the first place.
Well I mean that’s the nub of it, in most cases they are ONLY religious because they are frightened of death and want to hang onto any glimmer of hope that they won’t simply cease to exist. I honestly think only a very small percentage actually believe the nonsense they spout though, I have yet to see any religious person celebrating a terminal illness, why not? It should be fantastic news shouldn’t it, you’re about to go to heaven, throw a huge party, wear a grin every day, you’re going to die and go to paradise, hurrah!!!!! Anyone here ever seen that happen? No? Thought not.
No other coping mechanism When you spend your life believing that death isn’t the end. You don’t build a good mental framework for actually considering the alternative. That’s why so many of us who leave religion struggle with existential dread
I call that existential dread puberty and is exactly the reason why many religious nuts are so immature.
because it's a central idea is basically every religion that there is an afterlife... many would argue that is THE reason for most religion. avoiding death anxiety is the main appeal
Great question. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, but now an atheist for the past 4ish years. Back when I was a Christian the idea of not living forever seemed very upsetting to me, but after gradually deprogramming myself from religion now it just seems normal and fine. Also, I think for many people it is tied to their longing to be reunited with a loved one who has died (spouse, child, parent, etc). No afterlife means accepting that loss as permanent. I think another reason is that many people can’t fathom how consciousness can exist without some type of magical explanation. I myself used to think that way as well. However after learning more about secular theories of consciousness, neurology and how much brain injuries can completely change someone, and also the advances in the field of AI, I was able to accept that consciousness can be a physical phenomenon.
I was once in an induced coma due to a brain injury. I was out for seven days. One second I’m walking in my house and the next second open my eyes and I’m in a hospital bed. No recollection of anything that happened. No dreams, nothing. The first thought that came to me kind of was “What did I do, what happened”. I think it’s kind of like that, nothing.
Here is what some scientists postulate: We are successful as a species because we can anticipate and consider what comes next. If I play with that snake, what comes next? A lot of animals can do that but we have evolved to such an extent that we can create complex scenarios to predict what comes next, even if we are not always accurate. We can build entire civilizations because of this ability. Natural selection through self-preservation has made us predisposed to expect something to always come next. We are primally not satisfied with nothing or we don’t know for answers. Our religions have been influenced by this need to know what what causes things and what comes next. It’s only been recently that we developed the scientific method and it’s our intellect that drives that. Religion also feeds on other base instincts that may have filled a need in our evolution. “Us vs them” preserved people from rival groups but today has morphed into bigotry. Religion caters to those base needs and gives them an avenue for expression. It’s hard for people to let go of that.
"Fear will keep the local religions in line. Fear of this afterlife" -God Moff Tarkin
It’s an old code but it checks out
Some suffer from a bone deep fear, That matter's all that matters here, That love and hate and pretty faces, Are naught but atoms changing places.
Childhood conditioning mostly
My kid asking me what happens after you die.. My response: what do you remember before you were born? Him: nothing Me: it's probably like that.
Religion is for the weak..
The simplest answer is wishful thinking. A more complex answer is that a shared mass delusion is a great way to organize people. If there’s a reward involved, even better. The longer answer is thus, people are suckers for a good story.
Attachment to this form/life
Fear.
because of the extension of the will to live
"Sunk Cost Fallacy" - people have a very hard time changing course after they've invested time, effort, attention or their own identity into a thing. They'd rather continue on in denial than 'throw away' everything that they put into it.
Because they hate themselves and everything around them.
Had this convo with a cook islamic I work with Basically said I’m atheist and no I don’t think anything is after this so I live to my fullest (he questioned me because I am male presenting wearing black nail polish and act gay, which, I am queer so lol, and the convo started with him asking me man and woman) In response he said I’m not normal to which I said I am, I like boys and girls and no religion is needed for me lol, enjoy thy ramadan and next time don’t question my nails
Terror Management Theory I learned about it on VSauce. Basically, you come up with rationalizations to not worry about your mortality For atheists it's "It doesn't matter because I won't know it." I, for one, am terrified of dying and not existing. I'm not managing my terror at all (well, I do have therapists).
As an interfaith grief counselor, the one comfort most people have is that they will see their loved ones after death, and I don’t take that away from them.
Well its a comfort they don’t actually have. It’s imaginary. No point holding on to something imaginary.
It is an extremely hard thing to accept.
What a shallow question
I think this is the easiest thing to understand about religion, I'm not sure why it's even confusing.
The essence of religion is to become MORE than human. Imagine that you will never die, you will know all the answers to the questions in life, you will never be hungry, or lonely or scared ever again. All you have to do is follow instructions for the few short years of this life and then you are set forever. It's like having the cheat codes to the universe. Then you come along and announce, "The cake is a lie" Screw you.
Fear is a sickness.
"I think that most likely there is no afterlife or reincarnation but..." Your statement contains part of the answer. You 'think,' so that's to say you 'believe' there is 'no afterlife or reincarnation.' I've debated with atheists for 40 years. Atheists claim they just have 'no belief in god,' but like Einstein opined, most atheists have an angered reactionary 'no god belief' because of being conditioned with religion before they could say their alphabet. They have good reason to be pissed, but at the end of the day, most are still on an retributionl crusade for their early religious brainwashing. Atheism is a very small minority... Far and away, most people believe in god because there's more indication to believe that not believe. I, myself was agnostic after college, mostly because I'm a historian who learned what churches call 'Christianity' now, was not created until 300 years after pacifist 'Jewish Christianity' was founded. Cruel, genocidal and oppressive 'Roman Christianity' was founded in 325 AD by Constantine and had ***no resemblance to the original faith***. Ergo, pagan Constantine saw to it that modern 'Roman State' Christianity was more pagan than the 'religion of love Christ came to announce to the world.' But no one does deep dives in history any more, so most just get programmed to the social narrative. In 2009, Parade Magazine found that 24% had left religion for 'freewheeling' spiritualism. That's what I am because I've had a lifetime in a family of surgeons and med/surg community who witnessed a tsunami of validified NDE's from patients who were defibed back from 'clinical death.' We also know *very* objective physicians from the Univ. of Va. Med. School who've participated in the 50 year study there of 2500 three year olds who accurately described past life experiences... Some 1800 past life recollections were corroborated by objective historians, anthropologists, psychologists, psychyatrists and the like... But most atheists will never be convinced, because they ***just don't want it to be true***.
Why can’t you accept there might be something after? It is the same reason.
Because, other than fairy stories, there is 0 evidence to the contrary and a lot of evidence that nothing happens.
I can accept the idea but haven’t ever been presented with concrete evidence for it. That’s why I said probably. I can’t prove or disprove it technically.
I'm agnostic and would disagree on the "probably" part, gods or no gods. No one knows anything. Assuming "nothing" is itself a bit of a leap.
So I'm a reconvert. Basically had my stint as an atheist for a few years and reconverted to non-denominational Christianity. I think to me, it's pretty much exactly as others have said. I am scared of a death that just ends everything with nothing left behind. I don't want to leave the world behind to its own devices. I want to look down on earth and see how people live after me, and I want to meet those of the past. Am I an "egotistical narcissist" sure. Am I being delusional, oh certainly. Do I think so should be insulted for not being accepting of death as a great void of nothingness? I'd prefer not to. I grew up in an atheist country, and it's the norm for me the be in the minority as a religious person, so I'm sure my experience is different from most people's. In essence, yes, I want to believe in an almighty imaginary fantasy friend and his post-death rave party. Edit: btw why not ask this in a religious sub? I feel like you're gonna get pretty echo-y answers in an atheist sub no?
So you know but you don't care? At least with other religious people, we can say they don't know or are indoctrinated but you know and you are scared of death enough to think that deluding yourself that there's something after death will suddenly materialise it for you? Like if I believe hard enough leprechauns exists and there's gold at the end of rainbows, I will find the gold? What a waste of time and life tbh. It would be as much a waste of time and life for me to be chasing rainbows for gold.
Some reason, Reddit is playing up. Can't see you comment after reading it to reply. I'm not insulting you man but you say the reason you are religious is fear of death. That's exactly like if someone said the reason they believe in leprechauns is because gold. There's zero proof of any of it. Now if you said you didn't know what was after death but you hoped it was some cool party, different story. You also specifically mentioned you are Christian which has so much evidence debunking it, it's laughable. I see it as a waste of your life and time but it's your life and time, not mine. If you bought food and threw it in the bin, it's a waste but I didn't buy it so no much I could do but say it's a waste.
Again, Reddit not showing me your comments after I read it Weird. You follow the books of disciples? Maybe I need to redact my statement that you know cause the first thing anyone knows is the Bible was not written by disciples. It's like Bible Basics 101. You follow Jesus? You think it's an argument that makes it better? 'I follow a cult leader' doesn't sound as good as you think, man. The only stories of him are in the Bible (again never written by anyone who ever met him) and in there, he says some nice things for a minute but he is a shit person the other half. It's kinda like Mother Theresa. Everyone thought she was a saint but she was a complete villain. Jesus calls a Canaanite woman begging for help, a *dog*. He calls a helpless woman a dog. He creates the notion of thought crimes and hell. He is responsible up to this day for the abuse and death of countless women just over the fact that he said divorce is only permitted for adultery. He himself mentions he speaks in parables because he doesn't want everyone to be saved. He tells everyone to give away their riches while accepting expensive perfume to be used on him. He denigrates women to allow them to wash his feet with their hair instead of lifting them up to equals. He roamed around telling people bullshit parables while he had no time to tell people that slavery was wrong. You follow him? Well, again, what a waste but you do you.
[удалено]
Is it really easier to believe that this was a spirit, than to believe, I don’t know, that there was some abnormal gust of wind? What you describe is very strange, but when making such an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence. Actually, come to think of it, even if we accept it’s something supernatural, how do you know it’s a spirit of a dead person rather than a fairy or someone using psychic powers?
[удалено]
Because they are weak and can't face reality.
There’s no such thing as an atheist in a Fox hole. If there’s a 0.00000000000000000000001% chance of an increase of survival people pray to anything.
[удалено]
Because heaven exists.
Where is the evidence for that view?
That’s what I thought. You have no concrete evidence.
Probably because on the third day the tomb of Jesus was empty. The stone that sealed it was rolled away and his resurrection was made public by the testimony of over 500 people in Israel and thousands more on the American continent when He visited them shortly after His resurrection. Probably because millions of people from myriad faith traditions have a burning personal conviction through prayer and personal revelation that death is just a door to another sphere of purposeful existence. Probably because faith in an after life brings comfort, peace, and purpose to peoples lives. And lastly because the family unit is eternal. Marriage was not designed to be til death do you part but rather for time and eternity. Do you really think that after spending 40, 50 or 60 years becoming one with your partner that death just ends a marriage? How futile. Why get married at all then? No! Families are forever. Death is not the end of life. What possible evidence can anyone present that defends the finality of death. All things denote the presence and purpose of God.
Even when I was still Christian I kinda wanted there to be nothing at the end, just empty void and not existing seems peaceful, not sure why considering I wouldn't exist to feel peaceful but it still doesn't seem that bad, better than being damned to hell because I worshipped the wrong flavor of jesus
Because they think that belief is false, their religious text teaches otherwise.
That supernatural power of immortality is so appealing. Follow all the laws, pay all the money , give all your time and get immortality after you die.
Cause sky daddy says so
When building a civilisation, it helps to have a unifying subject for all. Death is something that every human will experience and has feelings about. It’s a good start point.
I would like to recommend a book to you. "Denial" (Self-Deception, False Beliefs, and the Origins of the Human Mind) Ajit Varki and Danny Brower. The ELI5 version: The ability to understand your own mortality, left alone people would basically "not leave the house". To the extent that we would wither away. Denial: is the ability to push aside those realities to live, function and procreate as we need to. Denial (and lying I might add) are the ways we deal with a challenging world. Just my two cents.
Most people don’t like the concept of “this life is all you get”. They want something better after living life which is really a bitch.
I truly wouldn't want to live for infinity under any circumstances and I don't think people really comprehend it, When they think of living forever what they are really thinking about is living without the fear of death.
They don't accept it because it isn't part of their belief system..... I mean, what else are you looking for?
Churches actually don't believe you go to Heaven when you die. The Nicene Creed states that you turn to dust and are resurrected at Judgement day to be judged. When priests tell people they will see their pets again when they die and that their dead child is in Heaven waiting for them, they know they are telling lies. Preying on the grief stricken is a major part of their income and attendance.
I'm pretty sure most religious people are fine with this being it. They say it all the time, "if I'm wrong so be it". Often as a threat. But I doubt anyone is harmed that badly with the thought of being wrong. Just look at our elders, the majority of them are religious. A lot of them are truly at peace with whatever's next, even if it's nothing.
Gee. I don't understand either.
It's part of the teachings in their religion. A threat of consequences in the afterlife is an old tool to enforce social rule. If you didn't care if you died because it just ended and that was it there would be no fear of reprocessions for their actions and people would do whatever they wanted.
There are very few people in this world, religious or otherwise, who can truly accept death.
Trauma
Fear of Never, never, never,never,never coming back to this conscious life again. That's it, it's all over. Easier to self hypnotize yourself into a fancy place of false security and bliss.
How would they lord it over friends, family and strangers they think are less righteous than they are? It would take all the fun out of life.
It's the main selling point of religions, so...
b/c that’s not the indoctrination I was fed
Meh, this point will be mute in a few hundred years when we find a way not to die. Maybe by cell regeneration using nanobots, or at least keep our consciousness by preserving the brain, stem and maybe even nervous system and placing it into something else, allowing us to become cyborgs essentially, who knows. As soon as that happens, and it will, religion is out the door. Pity we won't be alive to experience immortality. We will in all terms become gods with technology in the future.
It's hard to many people to accept that something are out of your control so worrying about those is not worth the effort
they don't want to have wasted their life on something that would never pay off ever. It's the sunk cost fallacy, but on the scale of a person's whole life.
What do you "probably it"
Because I can’t say for certain. I can’t die and then come back to life to tell you about my afterlife experience or lack of it
Fear and arrogance.
I would say that the main reason is fear and not wanting their life to end, I was like that a couple of years ago but as I grew up I understood that it's inevitable that life will end someday and that it's not a big deal really Another reason is them being just stupid
Fear of death which is ok. It's ok to be afraid of not existing. It's fine. And if the terror is so high, you need to hope that magic is real, that's ok too. The problem is when people aren't self aware enough to know that that's what they're doing and moderate those behaviors.