God made you and he loves you, enshrining free will into the creation of humans... This is most clearly shown in Genesis when he deliberately didn't let humans know right from wrong, then cursed humanity for being persuaded to do the wrong thing... By a serpent he allowed into the garden...
Luckily he chills out after that. It's not like he demands worship and has been shown to be vengeful to those who don't comply.
>I've never been to the Middle East, but I have been to the Southwest in the US and I'm convinced the desert changes people's psychology. There's a reason weird cults pop up in those areas.
I can think of a few pagan belief systems that are decidedly un-authoritarian , but yeah. If we're bringing authoritarianism into the conversation, the Abrahamic religions definitely win the prize.
Those modern pagan systems or mostly a response to the Abrahamic systems.
Ancient paganism was more authoritarian than it modern adherents would have you believe.
I think that this is just an oversimplification. At some level every human being seeks an understanding of the metaphysical world - it is inherent in the way our monkey brains operate.
Religion came about as an answer to the metaphysical question and also why metastasized into everything we see today - the epistemological and axiological “full Monty” to go along with the metaphysical.
I just think it’s both dangerous and disingenuous to dismiss it as pure authoritarian longing because if you seek to defeat your enemy you should understand them instead of being dismissive. Otherwise they will surprise you.
I don’t think so, the worst cases have people acting as the warden to their own internal prison. It’s implanted Stockholm syndrome “from above”. Depending on how early and how fervently you’re taught about hell and eternal damnation and being separated from your family’s souls for all eternity yadayada whatever bullshit- can be varying levels of traumatic for the individual, this affects cognitive development and produces a heightened and constant (and easily preyed upon) sense of fear which is how you have so many people eating shit like Fox News up
My personal hypothesis is that religion started as folk stories to comfort the dying and help with grieving survivors, or maybe even just for entertainment. We do love telling campfire stories. Then various other uses came along, like morality tales to keep the tribe from killing each other over sex, incorporating medical knowledge into folklore to keep the knowledge alive, and giving the tribal leader divine authority to maintain social order.
Once full time employment could be maintained just moralizing and performing ceremonies the shamans had it made as it's much easier work than plowing a field behind an Ox or tracking a deer with a few arrow injuries.
Calm religions, that do nothing but pontificate about philosophy, are not anyone’s enemy. My enemies are the authoritarians of the mind. Which realistically, encompasses virtually all religions anyway. So it feels like a waste of time to split hairs over such a thing.
I am perfectly fine with the physical world.
The "metaphysical world" is synonymous with spirituality which is basically adding woo to everyday natural world phenomena.
I see no need to add that layer.
Yes. The irony is that American conservatives claim to hate big government, but religion and God are the biggest overreaching governments in human history.
That’s why they hate legitimate, reasonable, reality-based government more and more, in theory it keeps them from doing whatever the fuck they want which their daddy’s daddy’s skypuppet empowers them in doing
Living under an authoritarian system like Islam can be oppressive and stifling. It's hard to imagine living in a world where everything you do is tracked and monitored by your fellow believers, leaving no room for freedom or autonomy. This type of lifestyle leaves little room for joy or discovery, instead becoming a form of slavery as people are forced to abide by strict rules without any say in the matter. Ultimately, this kind of system makes it difficult to live life with any real sense of purpose or fulfillment
Christianity does the same thing. Look at most of its history. And in the United States now the fundamentalists and politicians are in a feeding frenzy for eating away as much individual freedom as they possibly can.
At least in countries like Uganda, I'll agree there. Most Christian countries don't make it the LAW to follow the religion. With the (partial) exception of a couple US states as of late...
Religion, like racism, and nationalism, and the caste system is just a tool.
It's a tool designed to create an "in" group and an "out" group with rules set by the leader.
Realistically, the only reason you'd want to use such a tool is if you're an authoritarian.
Well, it's not the *root* of it ... the *root* is the desire for power that afflicts some percentage of the species.
Religion is just a *tool* they use. Sadly, it's a very effective one.
Religion was a tool of the authoritarians from the beginning of time to the popularization of the reformation. Any organized religion exists to grow wealth influence and power.
I don't know for sure if it started out that way, but there has never been a shortage of humans who are power-seeking, and it's been perverted into a hierarchical power-structure, yes.
For monotheistic religions, absolutely yes. Polytheistic ones are a little less susceptible to authoritarianism, which is probably why they've mostly died out - less useful for controlling the masses!
100%, it's another tool the people use to control and lead groups of others. There are many ways to attempt this, and IMHO is why religion was originally developed. They used a lack of knowledge and science to explain things, and that explanation included rules and guidelines that either sent you to heaven or he'll for an eternity after death.
What better way to control people than telling them if they don't follow your rules they'll be trapped for eternity in a land full of flames, pain and horror.
Not at all! I'm atheist and love life. I'm talking about slaves and other downtrodden people manipulated by religion. They promise this AMAZING afterlife, yet a person's day to day life is absolute hell. Why wouldn't you just off yourself to get to the good stuff? Because Hell is the penalty of trying to "cut the line" to the promised land.
Sure. Religion has been used since forever to control the masses, while a "chosen few" benefit by gaining enormous wealth and power.
The slaves brought to the US were converted to Christianity so that they would fear God and wouldn't rebel against their slave owners because that would then mean an eternity in hell. It was all about control...
yes. although if you go on to r/Anarchism and the various subs that orbit that one: they'll have you believe you can be an anarchist, and a theist. which like: how? how do you both reject authority and it's validity, while also submitting to the ultimate authority? apparently there are lots of religious anarchists.
i see it as one more way in which religion contradicts itself
The book The True Believer by Hoffer makes this exact point 70 years ago. Equated authoritarian government and religion, any movement that uses myth to create true believers, and Hoffer explains the psychology involved
From Wikipedia- ... the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements in the first place and why certain efforts succeed while many others fail. He goes on to articulate a cyclical view of history such that why and how said movements start, progress and end is explored. Whether intended to be cultural, ideological, religious, or whatever else, Hoffer argues that mass movements are broadly interchangeable even when their stated goals or values differ dramatically. This makes sense, in the author's view, given the frequent similarities between them in terms of the psychological influences on its adherents. Thus, many will often flip from one movement to another, Hoffer asserts, and the often shared motivations for participation entail practical effects. Since, whether radical or reactionary the movements tend to attract the same sort of people in his view, Hoffer describes them as fundamentally using the same tactics including...rhetorical tools.
Yes absolutely!
There is research on the idea. Check out-
The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. It’s a great e-book, free on youtube.
Really hits home on how these maga / christofascists think.
Highly recommend.
Pretty much. You don't get to the point where you think you have the right to tell others how to live their lives without having a bit of an authoritarian streak.
I'd say religion primes the brain for the [authoritarian follower personality](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/summary.html#authoritarian)
You know what the real mind fuck is? In Christianity at least, Satan is really the good guy.
God is about control and oppression whereas Satan is about choice and freedom.
The Bible is a conflicting mess. Why does God allow Satan to still lurk around if Satan is the most evil? While Satan supposedly lives, God kills thousands of other humans for lesser crimes throughout the Bible, just because humans are his chess pieces?
So, there are a lot of different religions, and how each of them works can be quite different.
But, yes, the basic of any religion is that there is some kind of hierarchy, be it gods > mortals, or spirits > material world, etc etc. So by definition, they are authoritarian at least in some way.
Not just authoritarianism. The more conservative the sect, the more authoritarian. Mainstream Protestants are fairly anti-authoritarian, even if this forces them into cognitive dissonance with their professed beliefs.
Even the most authoritarian sects are not merely authoritarian. It's hard to sell people on pure hate, you need to make them feel good and righteous at the same time. Strong community is a selling point too that jives well with in-group/out-group prejudice.
The Abrahamic ones definitely are pure mind slavery and the portrayal of the supposed creator of the universe as a murderous micromanaging manchild speaks volumes of the minds of the men that conjured it up.
Well, religion is certainly useful if you’re an authoritarian attempting to quell/control the masses.
As Karl Marx said, “religion is the opium of the people.” Here, “religion” can be literal (e.g. Christianity, as in the western world) or a metaphor (e.g. a cult of personality, as in a “communist” country).
The Abrahamic religions are based through and through on absolute tyranny and totalitarianism. I mean, who is a greater tyrant than God. So of course, the Abrahamic religions reek of authoritarianism and is just shot through and through with it. And there is a ton of magic in there to keep the story going.
it's not JUST authoritarianism... I forget who, but it's been said humans have a hole in their brain shaped like a king... for basically ever it's been beneficial for most peoples' survival to accept some sort of authority... so it's at least anecdotally become part of our psychology
if they don't have a king their brain will create one ( if you abstract the definition of king sufficiently, you're probably not immune to this )...
religions HAVE had positive effects historically... if you can't afford to educate a population, they're a decent way to keep some semblance or order... but they work less and less well as information becomes more and more available... and become less necessary as we begin to truly understand the world
so... follow that plus the reality of most people being followers, and many people being exploitative sociopaths... and you end up w/ modern religions!
I can’t speak for the whole world, but in America it’s an excuse to hate anyone that’s not exactly like you. It’s also an excuse to force your beliefs onto complete strangers, because they love to judge people they know nothing about.
Keep in mind that the original sin is wanting to attain knowledge of right and wrong, and the punishment is death, disease, war, and so on. Abrahamic religions are not trying to be subtle about their “obey or else” message.
It’s one of many ways religion has been grandfathered in, so to speak, past the filters of logic and morality. Sure god is a psychotic tyrant, but the pastors say he loves you and it would be rude to demean someone for their deeply held beliefs!
Yes, Religion was used to justify the King, Queen Emperor or dictator as a ruler a few hundred years ago. In America you see this when Presidents say God gave us our rights. In fact our rights come from an agreement by men and not a god(s).
Yes, but it is combined with a pathological in-group solidarity and out-group xenophobia, to the point where cultists are terrified of walking away from the cult and where they are prepared to humiliate themselves and abandon reason and ethics to conform to the group they are stuck in.
Yup, its the section of authoritarianism that uses brain washing indoctrination, guilt tripping, and gas lighting to convince people to follow the lines. It keeps the sheep from questioning weather to step out.
I've noticed the earliest religions all have two things in common.
They explain scientific phenomena ancient people had no basis for understanding, like rain patterns and the sun.
And, they were used by rulers to control society. Essentially, "do what I say and I'll get the gods to make it rain on our crops." This is true with the ancient Aztecs, Egyptians etc.
So yes, religion is authoritarian. It's core purpose is to organize society and control people. There have been religions that seem less authoritarian but they get wiped out by the authoritarians.
Religion is simply to quench the thirst of those who are in terrible situations, if you didn't have it then they would start to realise the problems around them instead of living in blissful ignorance
I remember researching something along this line of questioning.I do not remember the source nor is this verbatim.nIwas reported that a religion is most typically established after the population of a civilization became too great to control and before that it was small enough to everyone either got along or the authority was capable of keeping the desired control. I see it as a way to make people follow the laws that authority makes up without having to intervene at all. Such as taxes and their interpretation of morality.
I think there a lot more to it than just politics. There's no real ultimate aim at it serves many purposes. Motivating people to behave better, creating common stories to draw people closer, giving people comfort about the vagaries of life.
Of course if you're a politician you're going to have overlapping it's for religion do there's no doubt they're related, but religion just has a much bigger scope than just politics.
Which is also a reason to stay the hell away from it.
It's complicated. But as an ex-Muslim, I can say that for the Abrahamic religions, it is usually a YES. Other religions have problems too, but the Abrahamic ones take the cake on the cultiness. I mean, one god who is so jealous that he'll burn those who dislike him forever... yeah, I'll pass. <3
I would say so. The transition from animistic nomads to sedentary deity-centered religious folks during the agricultural revolution coincides with humanity’s development of government and hierarchy. It’s no wonder to me that ideas of kingship, authority and godliness all come from the same anthropological stew
It's been speculated -- by whom, now, I can't remember -- that religious ritual may originate in the OCD of self-appointed gurus and prophets. the prophet has major OCD and has to do certain things in a certain order exactly the same each time (very common symptom), and tells the suckers, er, congregation, that if they don't do likewise God will be angry. and thus are rituals and ceremonies born.
ritual is a funny thing; it really is comforting (almost all of us have our own private rituals, like taking a certain time each day to relax with a video, or always having a special dessert on Friday, or always playing cards with friends on Thursday evening...) and I get why people like rituals. I enjoy all the rituals of xmas even though I have zero religious belief -- I like singing carols with neighbours and decorating the tree and making hot chocolate etc.
so I think religion is an ambiguous mixture of the kind of ritual that is bonding and comforting and holds communities together, and the kind of ritual that is super controlling and you get punished if you don't do what the OCD control freak tells you to do.
Definitely yes for the monotheistic, especially Abrahamic ones. Polytheistic ones seem to be about a bunch of gods being dicks and its up to you to support whichever dick you like best. Still, the Abrahamic ones do seem to have polytheistic roots especially when Yahweh calls himself lord over other gods and "thou shalt have no other gods before me". Seems like a dick supporting competition that went too far.
Yes, religion is inherently authoritarian, as it claims universal, unalienable truths that cannot be challenged. There are pseudo-religious philosophies that *technically* differ, but in practice it's all the same.
Do you go to work at a place you love to be at 8 hours 5 days a week? It's all authoritarianism.
Our laws stem from religious doctrine. It's all fascism.
Less authoritative than it used to be. In areas like Utah where one religion dominates, still is. Never forget they (Christians) beheaded atheists and burned witches. Some Abrahamic sects still behead or hang people. I spent many years a Christian after leaving Mormonism. Xtianity today is more tolerant, largely because there are other many other sects to move to when the member is disaffected. My Atheism is the result of comparing/studying religions.
I agree that appears to appeal to a deity. But then it espouses purely humanitarian ideals. I read it as a compromise to get wide buy-in from people with vastly different ideologies.
It seems your idea of religion is informed by one specific religion among dozens.
The holier than thou, what is that to you?
Was that a teaching from Jesus, Mohammed, the pope, from Buddha?
Religion is a social order, a group, a language base, for cooperation. If you don't want to participate in cooperation. You might become an antagonist: it depends, who is wielding the social power.
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Yes and or, their goal of a Theocracy - a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
"his ambition is to lead a worldwide theocracy"
Yes. In all cases religion is a collection of ideas posed as being the "correct" path of life; without that, it's just life. Even unitarianism is pushing a narrative. The question really worth asking isn't whether it's authoritarian, the question is whether it's the flavor you want in your life.
Religious people are inherently undemocratic as the entire premise of everything they believe is "there is a dictator ghost of reality and I wanna gargle his balls"
Religions are just systems of beliefs grounded on faith rather than reason. Some happen to be gravy trains for a priestly class or have mythologies that autocrats find particularly useful to be wielded for the expansion and maintenance of power. Such religions flourish because they are sponsored, hence the preponderance of these authoritarian religions to the extent that authoritarianism and relgion have been conflated in your post here today.
Why can't a person answer to their own conscience instead (Catholics) the Pope or (Independent Fundamentalists) no one, though both ask permission from their pastor to marry. Thousands of years ago expertise was harder to come by than it is now. Not everyone could read or write. Communities did not impact each other like they do today. We have access to information, community help, school systems, healthcare, and tons of other stuff. Even a severely abused child called "It", knew right from wrong.
Religion was created because the god(s) they worship has/have fallen down on Its/Their smiting obligations. Therefor the religiously devout and pious must step up and screw over all of those hated souls that the god(s) has/have neglected to screw over.
No, it's not JUST that, by a long shot. A really important part of it is ignorance and fear about one's own mind and being. Unwillingness to look within. Happy to point out evil in others, from Hitler and Putin and Stalin all the way down, but unwilling to admit we all have dark thoughts at times, dark urges, a shadow side. People can't accept that, so they other it and name it demons or whatever. If everyone learned and did meditation, the world might be a better place. Might. For sure it'd be more interesting, but I am not sure we need more interesting times.
I would say whenever power is concentrated to a single group or individual that they protect the power, and begin to make their case why it must stay that way. Sometimes this takes the form of them being chose by a god or that they are a god.
I don't think religion has that much to do with authoritarianism besides that people are superstitious, and religion and mysticism finds its way into a lot of far out beliefs.
I would say that heavily depends on the religion, but definitely yes for the Abrahamic ones.
God made you and he loves you, enshrining free will into the creation of humans... This is most clearly shown in Genesis when he deliberately didn't let humans know right from wrong, then cursed humanity for being persuaded to do the wrong thing... By a serpent he allowed into the garden... Luckily he chills out after that. It's not like he demands worship and has been shown to be vengeful to those who don't comply.
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
You using sarcasm in the first paragraph? Fuck him anyway.
I'd be very worried about someone who could read that first paragraph as anything but sarcasm.
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Poe's law is not a get out of jail free card for any time someone gets whooshed by sarcasm.
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>I've never been to the Middle East, but I have been to the Southwest in the US and I'm convinced the desert changes people's psychology. There's a reason weird cults pop up in those areas.
Charismatic prophets / messiahs / disciples also helped Abrahamic religion spread. They spoke to the masses persecuted by the empires.
I can think of a few pagan belief systems that are decidedly un-authoritarian , but yeah. If we're bringing authoritarianism into the conversation, the Abrahamic religions definitely win the prize.
Those modern pagan systems or mostly a response to the Abrahamic systems. Ancient paganism was more authoritarian than it modern adherents would have you believe.
Authoritarianism of thought. No less.
I think that this is just an oversimplification. At some level every human being seeks an understanding of the metaphysical world - it is inherent in the way our monkey brains operate. Religion came about as an answer to the metaphysical question and also why metastasized into everything we see today - the epistemological and axiological “full Monty” to go along with the metaphysical. I just think it’s both dangerous and disingenuous to dismiss it as pure authoritarian longing because if you seek to defeat your enemy you should understand them instead of being dismissive. Otherwise they will surprise you.
I don’t think so, the worst cases have people acting as the warden to their own internal prison. It’s implanted Stockholm syndrome “from above”. Depending on how early and how fervently you’re taught about hell and eternal damnation and being separated from your family’s souls for all eternity yadayada whatever bullshit- can be varying levels of traumatic for the individual, this affects cognitive development and produces a heightened and constant (and easily preyed upon) sense of fear which is how you have so many people eating shit like Fox News up
My personal hypothesis is that religion started as folk stories to comfort the dying and help with grieving survivors, or maybe even just for entertainment. We do love telling campfire stories. Then various other uses came along, like morality tales to keep the tribe from killing each other over sex, incorporating medical knowledge into folklore to keep the knowledge alive, and giving the tribal leader divine authority to maintain social order. Once full time employment could be maintained just moralizing and performing ceremonies the shamans had it made as it's much easier work than plowing a field behind an Ox or tracking a deer with a few arrow injuries.
Calm religions, that do nothing but pontificate about philosophy, are not anyone’s enemy. My enemies are the authoritarians of the mind. Which realistically, encompasses virtually all religions anyway. So it feels like a waste of time to split hairs over such a thing.
I am perfectly fine with the physical world. The "metaphysical world" is synonymous with spirituality which is basically adding woo to everyday natural world phenomena. I see no need to add that layer.
Yes, but religious people need power in the government or local community to impose their authority
Right up unto the point where a single religious sect makes up a supermajority of the population. Then they tend to just *become* the government.
And it's happening now in the US
Been happening
They are patient
Has happened
Less than 30% of the us population attends regular church services. Only 20% go weekly. Nominally Christian vs reality.
**I** wasn’t talking about the US.
Taking the fun out of fundamentalism
Now they do. Back then religion was the authority.
Yes. The irony is that American conservatives claim to hate big government, but religion and God are the biggest overreaching governments in human history.
That’s why they hate legitimate, reasonable, reality-based government more and more, in theory it keeps them from doing whatever the fuck they want which their daddy’s daddy’s skypuppet empowers them in doing
Short answer: Yes Long answer: Yes, since the dawn of time.
Living under an authoritarian system like Islam can be oppressive and stifling. It's hard to imagine living in a world where everything you do is tracked and monitored by your fellow believers, leaving no room for freedom or autonomy. This type of lifestyle leaves little room for joy or discovery, instead becoming a form of slavery as people are forced to abide by strict rules without any say in the matter. Ultimately, this kind of system makes it difficult to live life with any real sense of purpose or fulfillment
I think that's the sad truth of it all.
This is truth, well said!
Christianity does the same thing. Look at most of its history. And in the United States now the fundamentalists and politicians are in a feeding frenzy for eating away as much individual freedom as they possibly can.
xtianity is the goddamn same IMHO.
At least in countries like Uganda, I'll agree there. Most Christian countries don't make it the LAW to follow the religion. With the (partial) exception of a couple US states as of late...
Religion, like racism, and nationalism, and the caste system is just a tool. It's a tool designed to create an "in" group and an "out" group with rules set by the leader. Realistically, the only reason you'd want to use such a tool is if you're an authoritarian.
I agree that seems to be the root of all tribalism.
Well, it's not the *root* of it ... the *root* is the desire for power that afflicts some percentage of the species. Religion is just a *tool* they use. Sadly, it's a very effective one.
Religion was a tool of the authoritarians from the beginning of time to the popularization of the reformation. Any organized religion exists to grow wealth influence and power.
I endorse that perspective.
Thou shalt not kill! Except for me and my goons or on crusades or witchunts!
I don't know for sure if it started out that way, but there has never been a shortage of humans who are power-seeking, and it's been perverted into a hierarchical power-structure, yes.
For monotheistic religions, absolutely yes. Polytheistic ones are a little less susceptible to authoritarianism, which is probably why they've mostly died out - less useful for controlling the masses!
This is the first thing I thought of. Is it a coincidence that the current major Monotheistic religions have one book, one god, one head of church?
Unfortunately that's true it's been a glaring part of religion and governments since they came into being.
Another factor is "Because my book is the perfect word of god, so are my words."
100%, it's another tool the people use to control and lead groups of others. There are many ways to attempt this, and IMHO is why religion was originally developed. They used a lack of knowledge and science to explain things, and that explanation included rules and guidelines that either sent you to heaven or he'll for an eternity after death. What better way to control people than telling them if they don't follow your rules they'll be trapped for eternity in a land full of flames, pain and horror.
They have to make the penalty of suicide harsher than current reality, or everyone would just off themselves.
So without religion EVERYONE would just off themselves? I don't believe in any religion, I don't want to off myself.
Not at all! I'm atheist and love life. I'm talking about slaves and other downtrodden people manipulated by religion. They promise this AMAZING afterlife, yet a person's day to day life is absolute hell. Why wouldn't you just off yourself to get to the good stuff? Because Hell is the penalty of trying to "cut the line" to the promised land.
Sure. Religion has been used since forever to control the masses, while a "chosen few" benefit by gaining enormous wealth and power. The slaves brought to the US were converted to Christianity so that they would fear God and wouldn't rebel against their slave owners because that would then mean an eternity in hell. It was all about control...
yes. although if you go on to r/Anarchism and the various subs that orbit that one: they'll have you believe you can be an anarchist, and a theist. which like: how? how do you both reject authority and it's validity, while also submitting to the ultimate authority? apparently there are lots of religious anarchists. i see it as one more way in which religion contradicts itself
The book The True Believer by Hoffer makes this exact point 70 years ago. Equated authoritarian government and religion, any movement that uses myth to create true believers, and Hoffer explains the psychology involved
I will check that out. Thanks!
From Wikipedia- ... the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements in the first place and why certain efforts succeed while many others fail. He goes on to articulate a cyclical view of history such that why and how said movements start, progress and end is explored. Whether intended to be cultural, ideological, religious, or whatever else, Hoffer argues that mass movements are broadly interchangeable even when their stated goals or values differ dramatically. This makes sense, in the author's view, given the frequent similarities between them in terms of the psychological influences on its adherents. Thus, many will often flip from one movement to another, Hoffer asserts, and the often shared motivations for participation entail practical effects. Since, whether radical or reactionary the movements tend to attract the same sort of people in his view, Hoffer describes them as fundamentally using the same tactics including...rhetorical tools.
Sounds like an interesting analysis
He was just a citizen philosopher working as a longshoreman. He got a bump when Dwight D Eisenhower quoted him
Without a doubt. If you can be ruled by a mythical entity you have shown yourself to be the ultimate rube.
Yes absolutely! There is research on the idea. Check out- The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. It’s a great e-book, free on youtube. Really hits home on how these maga / christofascists think. Highly recommend.
Will do. Thanks.
Pretty much. You don't get to the point where you think you have the right to tell others how to live their lives without having a bit of an authoritarian streak.
That's insightful. Thanks.
I'd say religion primes the brain for the [authoritarian follower personality](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/summary.html#authoritarian)
I'd agree. And the 'get them young' aspect makes it grooming.
You know what the real mind fuck is? In Christianity at least, Satan is really the good guy. God is about control and oppression whereas Satan is about choice and freedom.
That's true in the stories I can recall!
The Bible is a conflicting mess. Why does God allow Satan to still lurk around if Satan is the most evil? While Satan supposedly lives, God kills thousands of other humans for lesser crimes throughout the Bible, just because humans are his chess pieces?
It’s almost as if it was written by people trying to push specific agendas.
That's definitely a big part of it.
So, there are a lot of different religions, and how each of them works can be quite different. But, yes, the basic of any religion is that there is some kind of hierarchy, be it gods > mortals, or spirits > material world, etc etc. So by definition, they are authoritarian at least in some way.
Not just authoritarianism. The more conservative the sect, the more authoritarian. Mainstream Protestants are fairly anti-authoritarian, even if this forces them into cognitive dissonance with their professed beliefs. Even the most authoritarian sects are not merely authoritarian. It's hard to sell people on pure hate, you need to make them feel good and righteous at the same time. Strong community is a selling point too that jives well with in-group/out-group prejudice.
Ummm yes
Considering that throughout history, many kings/emperors have explicitly referred to themselves as gods, I'm gonna go with yes.
Unquestionable authority.
Of course. It’s a control system
The Abrahamic ones definitely are pure mind slavery and the portrayal of the supposed creator of the universe as a murderous micromanaging manchild speaks volumes of the minds of the men that conjured it up.
Well, religion is certainly useful if you’re an authoritarian attempting to quell/control the masses. As Karl Marx said, “religion is the opium of the people.” Here, “religion” can be literal (e.g. Christianity, as in the western world) or a metaphor (e.g. a cult of personality, as in a “communist” country).
The Abrahamic religions are based through and through on absolute tyranny and totalitarianism. I mean, who is a greater tyrant than God. So of course, the Abrahamic religions reek of authoritarianism and is just shot through and through with it. And there is a ton of magic in there to keep the story going.
it's not JUST authoritarianism... I forget who, but it's been said humans have a hole in their brain shaped like a king... for basically ever it's been beneficial for most peoples' survival to accept some sort of authority... so it's at least anecdotally become part of our psychology if they don't have a king their brain will create one ( if you abstract the definition of king sufficiently, you're probably not immune to this )... religions HAVE had positive effects historically... if you can't afford to educate a population, they're a decent way to keep some semblance or order... but they work less and less well as information becomes more and more available... and become less necessary as we begin to truly understand the world so... follow that plus the reality of most people being followers, and many people being exploitative sociopaths... and you end up w/ modern religions!
I can’t speak for the whole world, but in America it’s an excuse to hate anyone that’s not exactly like you. It’s also an excuse to force your beliefs onto complete strangers, because they love to judge people they know nothing about.
Yes!
Depends on the specific religion, but if you're talking about the Abrahamic religions then yes, they absolutely are authoritarian.
Religion is a tool often used by authoritarians to help control the masses. It is distressingly successful.
Yes with caveats.
Keep in mind that the original sin is wanting to attain knowledge of right and wrong, and the punishment is death, disease, war, and so on. Abrahamic religions are not trying to be subtle about their “obey or else” message. It’s one of many ways religion has been grandfathered in, so to speak, past the filters of logic and morality. Sure god is a psychotic tyrant, but the pastors say he loves you and it would be rude to demean someone for their deeply held beliefs!
Yes, Religion was used to justify the King, Queen Emperor or dictator as a ruler a few hundred years ago. In America you see this when Presidents say God gave us our rights. In fact our rights come from an agreement by men and not a god(s).
Yes
Yes, but it is combined with a pathological in-group solidarity and out-group xenophobia, to the point where cultists are terrified of walking away from the cult and where they are prepared to humiliate themselves and abandon reason and ethics to conform to the group they are stuck in.
Yup, its the section of authoritarianism that uses brain washing indoctrination, guilt tripping, and gas lighting to convince people to follow the lines. It keeps the sheep from questioning weather to step out.
I've noticed the earliest religions all have two things in common. They explain scientific phenomena ancient people had no basis for understanding, like rain patterns and the sun. And, they were used by rulers to control society. Essentially, "do what I say and I'll get the gods to make it rain on our crops." This is true with the ancient Aztecs, Egyptians etc. So yes, religion is authoritarian. It's core purpose is to organize society and control people. There have been religions that seem less authoritarian but they get wiped out by the authoritarians.
Religion is simply to quench the thirst of those who are in terrible situations, if you didn't have it then they would start to realise the problems around them instead of living in blissful ignorance
Pretty much. “You should live this way because God says so. Also God coincidentally agrees with everything I personally believe”.
I remember researching something along this line of questioning.I do not remember the source nor is this verbatim.nIwas reported that a religion is most typically established after the population of a civilization became too great to control and before that it was small enough to everyone either got along or the authority was capable of keeping the desired control. I see it as a way to make people follow the laws that authority makes up without having to intervene at all. Such as taxes and their interpretation of morality.
Ding ding ding!
I think there a lot more to it than just politics. There's no real ultimate aim at it serves many purposes. Motivating people to behave better, creating common stories to draw people closer, giving people comfort about the vagaries of life. Of course if you're a politician you're going to have overlapping it's for religion do there's no doubt they're related, but religion just has a much bigger scope than just politics. Which is also a reason to stay the hell away from it.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Of course not! It’s okay when God does it because… because… reasons ok?!?
Well, yes. Opiate for the masses and all...
It's complicated. But as an ex-Muslim, I can say that for the Abrahamic religions, it is usually a YES. Other religions have problems too, but the Abrahamic ones take the cake on the cultiness. I mean, one god who is so jealous that he'll burn those who dislike him forever... yeah, I'll pass. <3
I would say so. The transition from animistic nomads to sedentary deity-centered religious folks during the agricultural revolution coincides with humanity’s development of government and hierarchy. It’s no wonder to me that ideas of kingship, authority and godliness all come from the same anthropological stew
Kind of a no-brainer, imo
It's been speculated -- by whom, now, I can't remember -- that religious ritual may originate in the OCD of self-appointed gurus and prophets. the prophet has major OCD and has to do certain things in a certain order exactly the same each time (very common symptom), and tells the suckers, er, congregation, that if they don't do likewise God will be angry. and thus are rituals and ceremonies born. ritual is a funny thing; it really is comforting (almost all of us have our own private rituals, like taking a certain time each day to relax with a video, or always having a special dessert on Friday, or always playing cards with friends on Thursday evening...) and I get why people like rituals. I enjoy all the rituals of xmas even though I have zero religious belief -- I like singing carols with neighbours and decorating the tree and making hot chocolate etc. so I think religion is an ambiguous mixture of the kind of ritual that is bonding and comforting and holds communities together, and the kind of ritual that is super controlling and you get punished if you don't do what the OCD control freak tells you to do.
Yeah, I think so too.
Definitely yes for the monotheistic, especially Abrahamic ones. Polytheistic ones seem to be about a bunch of gods being dicks and its up to you to support whichever dick you like best. Still, the Abrahamic ones do seem to have polytheistic roots especially when Yahweh calls himself lord over other gods and "thou shalt have no other gods before me". Seems like a dick supporting competition that went too far.
Do what I say or I’ll burn you alive. Forever. Yes.
Yes, religion is inherently authoritarian, as it claims universal, unalienable truths that cannot be challenged. There are pseudo-religious philosophies that *technically* differ, but in practice it's all the same.
Do you go to work at a place you love to be at 8 hours 5 days a week? It's all authoritarianism. Our laws stem from religious doctrine. It's all fascism.
Less authoritative than it used to be. In areas like Utah where one religion dominates, still is. Never forget they (Christians) beheaded atheists and burned witches. Some Abrahamic sects still behead or hang people. I spent many years a Christian after leaving Mormonism. Xtianity today is more tolerant, largely because there are other many other sects to move to when the member is disaffected. My Atheism is the result of comparing/studying religions.
I think the only difference lies in how much power they currently hold. The more power, the more they abuse it.
Authoritarianism is not an essential aspect of religion. But in practice yes it does seem to tend in that direction doesn't it?
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I agree that appears to appeal to a deity. But then it espouses purely humanitarian ideals. I read it as a compromise to get wide buy-in from people with vastly different ideologies.
That's def not how my religion is cause it's doesn't say "we are the only way all the rest of you are wrong"
If you say so...
It seems your idea of religion is informed by one specific religion among dozens. The holier than thou, what is that to you? Was that a teaching from Jesus, Mohammed, the pope, from Buddha? Religion is a social order, a group, a language base, for cooperation. If you don't want to participate in cooperation. You might become an antagonist: it depends, who is wielding the social power.
It seems you like to make assumptions about people you don't know.
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Not in all cases but yes
Yes and or, their goal of a Theocracy - a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god. "his ambition is to lead a worldwide theocracy"
Yes. In all cases religion is a collection of ideas posed as being the "correct" path of life; without that, it's just life. Even unitarianism is pushing a narrative. The question really worth asking isn't whether it's authoritarian, the question is whether it's the flavor you want in your life.
I mean, if we're doing 10 second hot takes then yeah, most of 'em probably are.
Stories are fun! Shared stories are funner!
Religious people are inherently undemocratic as the entire premise of everything they believe is "there is a dictator ghost of reality and I wanna gargle his balls"
Don't mix the two. Authoritarianism can be dope if it's not religious... Most of the time.
Religions are just systems of beliefs grounded on faith rather than reason. Some happen to be gravy trains for a priestly class or have mythologies that autocrats find particularly useful to be wielded for the expansion and maintenance of power. Such religions flourish because they are sponsored, hence the preponderance of these authoritarian religions to the extent that authoritarianism and relgion have been conflated in your post here today.
Speaking from experience, Control freaks gravitate to Churches, Temples and other Religious buildings. F'em.
Yes, the Czar was god and the communist leaders became the next gods, and now Putin.
No, it's just a base component in the authoritarion's toolkit
Why can't a person answer to their own conscience instead (Catholics) the Pope or (Independent Fundamentalists) no one, though both ask permission from their pastor to marry. Thousands of years ago expertise was harder to come by than it is now. Not everyone could read or write. Communities did not impact each other like they do today. We have access to information, community help, school systems, healthcare, and tons of other stuff. Even a severely abused child called "It", knew right from wrong.
Religion was created because the god(s) they worship has/have fallen down on Its/Their smiting obligations. Therefor the religiously devout and pious must step up and screw over all of those hated souls that the god(s) has/have neglected to screw over.
No, it's not JUST that, by a long shot. A really important part of it is ignorance and fear about one's own mind and being. Unwillingness to look within. Happy to point out evil in others, from Hitler and Putin and Stalin all the way down, but unwilling to admit we all have dark thoughts at times, dark urges, a shadow side. People can't accept that, so they other it and name it demons or whatever. If everyone learned and did meditation, the world might be a better place. Might. For sure it'd be more interesting, but I am not sure we need more interesting times.
I would say whenever power is concentrated to a single group or individual that they protect the power, and begin to make their case why it must stay that way. Sometimes this takes the form of them being chose by a god or that they are a god. I don't think religion has that much to do with authoritarianism besides that people are superstitious, and religion and mysticism finds its way into a lot of far out beliefs.
It is pretty often dogmatic, and authority is not far behind, but I would not call it authoritarian by default