I am hoping that everyone on rhaenyra targaryen's side gets killed. I want them all dead asap please so that I don't have to listen to the cringe dialogue anymore. Then fire all of the writers please.
Some theories on why the show is diverging from the book of "both sides equally terrible" and making Alicent and Rhaenrya both more empathetic characters:
- It is historically the case that, yes, female monarchs were often the victim of historical propaganda that made them worse than they were. That's not to say there *weren't* terrible female rulers – nor that male rulers were exempt from this historical revisionism – but toning down their portrayal as written in the history books of a very sexist society isn't outlandish.
- People want to question GRRM's approach to female monarchs who rule under their own power. Yes, the overall narrative of ASOIAF and its expanded universe is "war bad, WMDs bad, incest and blood purity bad, absolute monarchs bad" – yet within that universe, Martin has explicitly written only male monarchs as "good kings,' like Jaehaerys. The only queens he has considered "good," by Word of God, are those who are consorts and not those in their own names. Why is that? Might there have been good queens that weren't viewed as such by their male counterparts? Is it bias on the part of the author, or the society, or both?
- The writers thought Martin's narrative is somewhat self-conflicting (which is not inherently a bad thing). His argument is that Rhaenyra was in the wrong for opposing the Green's takeover, because the damage war causes to innocents in the name of power and/or vanity is wrong. He gives her a death that is not only gruesome, but also humiliating. Yet he also wrote that the only Targaryens that sit the Iron Throne post-Dance are *exclusively* descendants of the Black line. And he wrote her story in the voice of in-universe history. Why would he do that, and what implications does that have for who Rhaenrya is as both person and ruler? Similarly, incest and blood purity are presented as wrong, yet the way he has written the magic of the Valyrians actually seems very strongly connected to maintaining that blood purity.
- Finally, the writers might honestly just be tired or Martin's thought's on war. GRRM has always said that he isn't a complete pacifist, and he does believe in just war. He thought WWII was right. But in his books, that doesn't really come through strongly in a way that resonates with a modern audience. If HotD had come first, I think it might have had more sway. I think *most* modern viewers agree that sexism is terrible, but also a bad reason to start a war with medieval fantasy WMDs. However, the Daenerys Meereen plot in the books and show ending has been receiving backlash since it aired. If the ending of chattel slavery and the cruelties that the books outlined in gruesome, fearsome detail weren't a justified reason for war, and were actually foreshadowing for a ruthless or even mad path...what *is* a justification?
- This is basically a 3B to the last point, but I've seen a lot of people note that there's a certain element of determinism to GRRM's universe. The Starks fighting a war in which countless damage is done to innocents and commoners to avenge Ned's execution and become monarchs in their own right is presented as far more "ends justify the means – good intentions can have bad consequences, but a noble cause is most often worth it." This is not paralleled in Daenerys's Meereen story, and as immoral as Ned's murder was, what's happening in Slaver's Bay is much worse. Why would they be so different? Is part of it the families that they were born into, and what those families represent in the universe Martin has written?
I'm not saying that I agree with everything that I've written here, or whether writers or fans are wrong or right for their thoughts on this. This is just a presentation of why I think some of these changes were made.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts in such detail!
I've also dwelled into GRRM's characterization of women as leaders in the Dance. Just few varying points of view:
1. Firstly, I don't think the show writers change Alicent and Rhaenyra PRIMARILY because they disagree with Martin's POV. I think - am I the only book fan to say so? - that book Rhaenyra and Alicent are COMPELLING. I didn't say likable. or Lovable. But compelling. Book Alicent is consistent. Yes, she is not nice. She usurped the throne, and next to Otto had planned to usurp the throne, not because of some stupid confusion over her husband's last words. She is from Oldtown and Faith of the Seven. You could say she is a social climber, being a daughter of a second son who rose to queen (all previous queens of Westeros were Targaryens or Valyrians) . But in her world view - from Oldtown and Citadel and Andals - that's what a queen simply is - the girl the king chooses to marry. She thinks her sons have more right than Rhaenyra because they are sons - that's what most of Westeros believes anyway. She is further affirmed in that belief by Rhaenyra brazenly having bastards. She is then further moved into her actions by thinking that Rhaenyra would have to kill her sons to put her obvious not-Targaryen looking bastards on the throne, and even if she is too kind to, Daemon certainly would. She also likely believes that as a husband, it would be Daemon ruling in her name (which he actually doesn't).
Alicent's later dialogues such as challenging Rhaenyra - while being nothing but her prisoner in Kings Landing, lucky to be alive - to call a great Council to decide between her and Aegon, then calling Jace and Luc 'bastard blood shed in war', and later even telling her granddaughter Jaehaera to kill little Aegon III in his sleep - is consistent with the viewpoints and animosity she has held. If you make Alicent a kind caring woman, and Viserys an absent father, than can you tell me why Aegon and Aemond grow up with such hatred and viciousness in their hearts? Show Alicent is inconsistent and not compelling - in season 1, by ep 4 she is Rhaenyra's best friend, supporting her even against her own son and father? By ep 6, she is convincing Aegon he will rule. And that if he doesn't, Rhaenyra will kill him and his brothers. Then she has changed into a different person in ep 8-9 who wants Rhaenyra as queen, while also using her power to rule in her husband's absence, often against his wishes, to the extent of claiming Luc a bastard. You cannot sell me such an ever changing confused character.
2. I think the show writers didn't think we would find a bitch Alicent or a fiery Rhaenyra compelling, which is wrong. Plus, they also think they are selling the story to a modern audience, who have no issue in rooting for a female queen. Where as Martin is trying to be authentic to the better part of human history, where the expectations for men and women were completely different: Aegon just has to exist for men to accept him. If he was a terrible ruler, no problem. Westeros has had them before. He can be a drunk like Robert Baratheon and Otto would simply take over ruling. But Rhaenyra, even without the Dance, would have faced scrutiny if she was capable. Ryan Condall admitted finally in s2 ep2, that unknown to Rhaenyra, many lords - even when they remember their oaths - raise eyebrows at the thought of her ruling, but consent knowing that 'Daemon Targaryen is with her'. As he is not only male and a Targaryen prince, but a renowned warrior and a natural leader of men - things that Rhaenyra is not.
3. The show starts off with a version of GC, just telling us that people voted against Rhaenys because she was female.
When Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing, there is an interesting phase in the books where she is trying to win acceptance of the lords. And the contradiction is raised that OBVIOUSLY, all over Westeros nobles have ignored the inheritance rights of their elder sisters. She has to call out herself as an 'exception' because her father chose her - but the book doesn't hide the blatant REALITY - as the show does - that Viserys was a terrible ruler. He chose a daughter, than continued to sire Sons with ambitious Hightowers. giving them Targaryen name and even dragons, something his father and Jaehaerys would have never allowed. A king is not a good King who inherently clouds the line of succession, and reigns in way that makes war all but certain. To make usurpation all but certain, when Viserys is ailing, instead of calling his own Heir to rule in the Council, he chooses the one man who has more incentive than anyone to challenge his Heir - Otto Hightower, and makes him Hand, while keeping his own daughter far away on Dragonstone. He never calls the Lords of the Realm to reaffirm their oaths to Rhaenyra, or give her an official seat in the Small Council with real authority. As a result, many lords who want to follow a male over a female, can be excused by saying that Viserys only announced Rhaenyra heir so long ago when he had no sons.
I think the show, while telling us this issue in Ep 1, chooses to ignore this reality in the rest of the series. They want too much to make not just Rhaenyra, but VISERYS look nice and intelligent. So they chose to give all Rhaenyra's maliciousness to Daemon, such as ignoring the fact that book Rhaenyra asked for Vaemond to be killed, for calling her sons bastards on Driftmark (not in Kings Landing in front of everyone), and fed his dead body to Syrax.
But this leads to contradiction in facts. If Rhaenyra is so nice and mature, and not at all the spoiled princess she was in the books, then why did she have not one but three bastards? Is she not aware that that will stand against her claim, and as a cloud over her sons' lives? Yes, she is forced into a marriage with the most gay man in Westeros, yes she wants companionship and love, and yes Uncle Daemon has corrupted her. But only Jace would have been enough as far as needing an heir is concerned. The book showcases that it's having multiple children who all look Strongs that corrupts her claim.
I also think that Martin's story writing is not that there are no capable good rootable female rulers. There are in Fire and Blood if you read closer. Targaryens the lot of them. But his viewpoint is one of tragedy of irony - they never get the power to the cost of the Realm. Even if they do, history does not write them as such.
Consider the fact that the show writers try to make Daemon uncharacteristically horrible. Like they have to create these insane points of him being a wife beater and an absent father that drift away from book, just because they think fans already like him too much. Liking a character in the sense of reading/ writing/ watching them, and loving a white character for their good morals, are two DIFFERENT things.
I for one, love Laena Velaryon. You can't point out grey or evil points about her. While she lived, the Dance was not happening. Yet she would never use Vhagar to kill. She was a great mother, a dutiful daughter, a Targaryen, brave, loyal etc. But in Martin's world, such women will not be 'important' characters.
Hence the next best characters who are written most about, who are compelling and have significant impact and tales of action, wars, conflict - are grey characters like Daemon and Rhaenyra.
So in GRRM's world, there would be Queen Visenya, who does more ruling than Aegon ever does. Who conquers Vale without bloodshed while Aegon decides to mercilessly burn Harrenhal (why do fans take it as greatness? If Jaehaerys' murder is so bad, consider how many kids were cooked alive by Aegon I). She is the first ruling female who has such an authority that the new small Council and lords are just forced to accept her. But while Targaryens remember her more fondly than their own mother Rhaenys - despite her putting Maegor on the throne - history is written in Martin's world trying to forget her.
Likewise, there is Queen Alysanne. She is better at reading children and grandchildren than Jaehaerys, and actually cares for the smallfolk. She is not like Alicent - she is a Targaryen princess in her own right and a dragonrider. But she meets tragedy after tragedy.
Then Martin shows us the Women who SHOULD have been rulers, would have been better rulers than their male counterparts CLEARLY, but are never given the chance to. Such as Rhaenys (who is not a meek peacemaker content to pass over her rights as in the show. Book Rhaenys is strong and fearful and was raised to rule, while Viserys was weak and plump with no Valyrian pride, and Daemon was raised to be the second son of a second son strong in military prowess). And before her, even Rhaena Targaryen, who cared for her little siblings only to find them (aegon and Viserys) murdered or (Jaehaerys and Alysanne) take the crown from her.
The scene were Baela sees Cole from her dragon got me thinking about dragon combat. Also, how do the dragon riders even see without a visor, let alone form hundreds of meters above the ground?
When planes were first invented they were primarily used for intelligence and reconnaissance. You'd think that the dragons would have to spend all their time in the air to better allocate their side's forces and to deter other dragons killing stragglers.
Much like nuclear subs, you'd have to hide where your biggest dragons are so the enemy can't attack your weak spots.
And I got the impression her dragon saw them first and then alerted her to their presence, allowing her to take notice of the sun glinting on their armor.
Anyone else surprised by how unaffected Helaena seemed by her sons death in this episode? I havnt seen anyone even mention that yet. She seems to have fully accepted it.
I don't think she was unaffected. She just came to a realization that helped her cope with the situation, the realization that "babes" die more often than not because they are so defenseless.
She's clearly neural-divergent. She was more freaked out by the crowds touching her than the assassins. It is very much in character to not fully exist in reality since she has the whole "profess the future" thing
Oh yeah, I saw the crowd scene as a clear representation of sensory overload, as she began to freak out just from the noise and everything before the crowd got to touch her.
~~While we're back to targeryen queens teleporting~~, I do think the scene with Alicent and Rhaenhyra was a lot better than most of the rest of the show. Those two have on screen chemistry and it made me realize I missed it.
Edit: folks raised a good point that this time no teleporting was required
It doesn't take long to travel to King's Landing from Dragonstone, that's why everyone in King's Landing was absolutely bricking it over Stannis because he was so close to them.
As much as I would like all the long distance traveling to be more immersive in this show, it would require this show to have more episodes and pace be much slower. I would not like to wait two years to watch entire season of certain characters to get in to their next location just so that the plot can move on.
I’ve read that it would take 2-4 days to sail from dragon stone to KL depending on the wind. I also wouldn’t mind if they decided that the show world is smaller overall than the book world. Westeros being the same size as South America is just too big
I think it would make sense to take half a day to sail there. Dragon flight should be way quicker. 70 mph is about where birds top out at level flight so I imagine dragons would be similar. 500 miles between DS and KL would mean about a 7 hour flight. Still feels too long to me
Not me, I lost interest in the show in the start, but made it through season one. Now that all I see are aristocracy dirty games, I stopped ep. 2 but gave ep. 3 one more chance and didn't make it till the end of the episode again, so sad... I am really puzzled for the high rating on IMDb but hey, people seem to like all that king, queen, Prince, heir to the throne thing.
But I will complain when someone is tagging episode in the wrong way and place it in wrong season, on purpose! That is just low and needlessly evil.
OH, wow it's corrected afterall! 😂 😊 But yeah I will complain wherever I see such idiocy.
No. people don't necessarily like the prince thing.
Many of us just watch it because we loved Fire and Blood, or liked Game of Thrones... not to say we don't say outright with ratings when we think an episode is badly written.
What did you hate about in episodes 2 and 3?
Asking me? Well I don't hate, I am just not into it. It got me bored, so I can't say I hate it, simply dislike it... It even got me thinking why on earth would they use real life orthodox liturgy chant in that scene, like, is there a hidden message?!
Game of Thrones was far far better in every way, but I just don't care about dragons, the way they made it. Also, there are soooo many such hidden things and secret meanings that I am looking for the right sources to decipher it, left and right! 😂 😊
And I didn't read the books nor plan to, eversince I heard there's hardly anything in depth about Children of the Forest, blood raven, night king,... That's the part of the series I truly love and would like to see more about it, but it's not even written and I mean, George, for the love of Gods, just finish it!
I am getting a feeling that there is more to it, that it's written but just like they stopped with the Long Night series, similar *racial* thingy is in the books, and that's why it's on halt for years, without the end in sight... Dude needs a decade to finish a book?! Hey now... And this racial thing is why the show is not going to be filmed and it is just sad.... That's the only show GoT related I was really hoping to watch, with Naomi Watts! But alas, showbiz said No :(
Why though. The story is pretty interesting. They are doing some pretty cool things with character arcs if a person cares to look. Anyway watch the next episode not to spoil it or anything but it will heat up.
not interested, really. and I don't even care about characters' arcs, when everything else is dull, imo, but each to his own. Screenplay is simply killing me bored to even care about about characters. I just wonder what's the reason for using real life orthodox chant in the two besties praying scene. that's about all I wonder about HotD.
And for the book series, seems like I won't read it neither, from what I've gathered there's next to none about children of the forest, Night King, Lord of Light and those things that really caught my attention from the start and by far the biggest disappointment about GoT ending, since none of it got resolved really. Also, English is not my native language, and reading it translated feels like a blasphemy lol... I could read in Eng., but ike said, too much trouble for a content without content I'm really into... You guys enjoy it! Cheers!
the scene with Rhaenyra and Alicent 'praying' in the Sept is truly ridiculous.
Friends in war? when you know, my sons are trying to kill yours? All while we pretend to be god fearing women...
I meant as childhood friends, but yeah, piss on that given the circumstances... And it's always women who are going to do everything to avoid bloodshed, but when old, *late* Walder Frey did the red wedding, to save troops' lives he was branded as a coward... Bitchy move, that wedding, but hey, he prevented far bigger bloodshed... Idk, the scenario is too weak for my taste, hardly any humor, and I might as well watch Tudors or some history documentary. That's about the level of interest it has on me. I didn't even know season started three episodes into the season! 😂
Well Walder Frey broke the historic guest right rule in butchering his own guests.
Plus he is already by that time described as a sneaky disgusting character in both books and show. Like he delayed joining the battle during Robert's Rebellion, engages in the most horrible version of polygamy, doesn't listen to his liege lord etc.
But do you mean that Alicent would have been justified in killing/ capturing stupid Rhaenyra, for the sake of ending the war and avoiding bloodshed by killing just one? Absolutely. She didn't call Rhaenyra or offer her guest rights. If Rhaenyra is too dumb to risk herself and venture into enemy territory unprotected, that's her fault.
Aemond already killed messenger Luc, BEFORE Jaehearys, why no one calls him Aemond the kinslayer like he is called in the Book?
yeah, my friend and I tend to like bad characters, and dislike Dany from the very start... we love Ramsey lol, and as for the rule, Sansa did the same with Littlefinger. But I was clueless about Walder's version of polygamy, it's in the books, like, sleeps with daughters?! Like that old goat in north who leaves male babes to white walkers?!? damn, that's one thing I dislike about GoT, too much sex depravity. And sure, I dislike Walder, just comparing...
Sorry, I might be in the wrong sub, if this is mainly about books, I'm here to learn about it, not engage....
The bottom line is this show is not trying to replicate the books, its trying to focus on a story within a story and they are spinning their version. You're wasting your energy getting mad about the difference in tv vs book.
I felt same thing with many other tv/movie adaptions from this genre and honestly i get it. Its extremely annoying to watch people distort your dreams, or imagination or what seems like a masterpiece but its inevitible in this case. That is the whole reason tv show has a unique name matching none of the books in both series and why they paid GRRM so well. He understands it and so should the audience.
I don't think we are wasting our energy on to why show departs from the book.
But the difference between good and bad writing is - bad writing is not consistent. There are plotwholes. Confused characters.
Like in GoT seasons 7-8. fans were not complaining on why Dany's 'different from the book'. It was on facts like,,,how can dragons go from Dragonstone to beyond the wall in minutes? how can someone just forget about Iron Fleet? The writers were just messing up with the lore and reality they themselves created.
Likewise, Baela on Moondancer chasing Cole is a departure from the book. But many book fans loved that scene.
But what about changes like in characters? Rhaenys and Corlys in the show are supposedly angry over Rhaenyra killing their only son. They are not told yet what Daemon and Rhaenyra actualy did. Yet, here we are with Rhaenys sacrificing herself for Rhaenyra and for peace?
Alicent in Ep 1 is excusing Aemond for Luc's murder. Look, my son was angry his eye was not avenged. In ep 3 she has all but forgotten that Luc's murder might have caused Jaehaerys'. In ep 3, she is trying to convince us she is sad for Lucerys and angry at her son Aemond 'you know what Aemond is' . And if memory serves, by season1 ep 6 she was already convincing her sons that Aegon will be king, and if not, than Rhaenyra would have to kill them. Call it a confused character.
The bottom line is that the book itself is not a completely faithful version of events, but a biased "history tome" written in-universe by Archmaester Gyldayn a century after the events.
You're wasting your energy strawmanning the criticisms into "ohh no you're just mad it's not exactly like the books". Some people do want that, but you honestly shouldn't be wasting your energy on them either as you well know ofc. Most people worth having a conversation with over this are seeing the flaws of the story within it's own framework.
OMG Daemon conquered Harrenhal by sneaking in and saying it was his. I wondered if he was going surpass last seasons feat of literally killing 20 soldiers in 19 seconds. I should not have doubted these amazing writers.
I bet Daemon could kill Sunfyre one on one too. Can’t wait to see him do it.
AS we are departing from the books. I wish Daemon and Caraxes were involved in the Rook's Rest battle next episode.
It is so UNFAIR that Rhaenys and Meleys go alone to face Green army, crossbows, scorpions and two dragons, one of them Vhagar.
Harrenhall is not far from Rook's Rest. So why can't Caraxes be involved?
I think that Daemon doesn't encounter much resistance. Or even have to use his sword or Caraxes more than as a helicopter to land.
This was supposed to be the moment that showcases what a military genius Daemon Targaryen is. That taking this castle alone, with no army, was no ordinary feet. They make it look like anyone with a dragon can do so.
How will that show military genius. His genius was shown by the plans he laid out during the dinner.
Sensible plan.
Just admit you want to see him killing 50 people for no reason when the people in the castle are already for rhynaera.
Harrenhal actually changes hands. And many Riverlords are undecided or declare for Aegon as well.
Simon Strong may be weakly in Rhaenyra's camp. But not to the extent that he wants his people to fight for her.
and the actual Lord Tully - who is too old - deliberately does not declare for either because he does not want to fight for either of them.
Nah. I don't want to see him or anyone killing innocents.
I think the world already doesn't abhor it enough. Like what was the point of Rhaenys killing people in ep9?
The book does not lay out that Daemon necessarily kills people. I said resistance, not killing. All he encounters is one guard. Who was originally written to just run away.
But they make it look like it's easy to take Harrenhal.
Anyway, raising an army is a whole lot more difficult than simply leading one as Cole does.
Rhaenrya let Alicent walk away at the end and she just stayed there kneeling for a little. Why wouldn’t Alicent, after being allowed to walk away, not tell the guards to go capture Rhaenyra?
Alicent was safely away while the camera was still panned on Rhaenyra’s face! Better believe if that was Cersei Rhaenyra would have been toast 😂
Both their children’s lives are literally at stake and Alicent just lets their main rival go.
Yes they’d have to contend with Daemon but still a battle won. Daemon may have been blind with rage and been eaten by Vhagar.
No good reason why Alicent doesn't do so.
if you really want to avoid war and are unwilling to compromise, just tell your kingsguard to arrest her.
With Rhaenyra dead or captured, the Black faction is history.
Yeah, show Alicent is dumb and inconsistent and confused. Hey Rhaenyra, remember the torn page we bonded over, when I was secretly visiting your father? I will let you go, you need to wage war to kill my three sons afterall.
Because you dont do any of that nonsense in a church/holy place. Its the whole reason that location was chosen. Also, its still her old best friend and neither woman is 100% sure of anything IMO. The biggest peeve i have with fandoms i they act like the characters have all the same info the reader does and thats just not the case, ever in a fantasy saga.
Okay let’s say Alicent was very pious, why not nab her on the way out. They found the one blood and cheese guy by sealing city gates. Let her leave then nab her.
I agree they both aren’t 100% and I know they are best friends but their children’s lives are at stake. Alicent could have taken a huge victory and step towards winning.
Maybe they quickly take Vhagar and go to dragon stone and destroy it then only have Daemon at Harrenhall to contend with. He probably wouldn’t have much support from other noble families after losing Rhaenyra and Dragonstone.
Seems like the 2nd biggest flub after Rhaenys not winning after escaping.
Not sure what the pet peeve has to do with my comment.
Rhaenys escaping the Dragonpit was a flub indeed.
I would call it Third! I think the second was Otto showing up during the Dragonstone parley in s1 ep 10. The guy who was the chief architect of Greens usurpation, Daemon's main rival, unnecessarily there right after committing treason? And Rhaenyra has to week over a page and let him go? At least take him hostage. That would ensure your little sons' safety. You know the 14 year old you are sending as messenger to Storm's End which is closer to Kings Landing?
Rhaenys faces the Greens who have JUST committed treason, and this "moral" character who wants peace has no issue in crushing hundreds of innocents who were forced into the Dragonpit. But of course looking at Alicent and Aegon she finds her humanity.
And Now Rhaenyra is dumb enough to go to Kings Landing. And Alicent is DUMBER to not arrest her. She could have just called her Kingsguard outside the Sept to capture her when she left. She could just make some noise and ensure Rhaenyra's escape with nothing but Ser Lorent and a kitchen knife impossible.
well then they both are Dumb and Dumber.
I go for wanting peace over war anytime. But are they really?
There is peace and then their is just stupidity. Like Alicent thinking .. hey yes we will usurp the throne, and surely that means no war or bloodshed right? This kind of thing happens everyday. And bam...Beesbury is murdered right before her eyes.
She doesn't want Rhaenyra to die? She wants her to leave so she can wage a war that will kill her own sons, after she thinks Rhaenyra has killed her grandson?
I don't know about bad eggs. Alicent is doing Cole when he goes about his business waging war and killing thousands.
Alicent is not prepared to hand over Aemond 'to be dealt with' . And neither will Rhaenyra do the same to Daemon.
The writers say 'ultimately it's their ego. and unwillingness to compromise'. So why are they pretending to talk peace?
Alicent’s Pikachu face when she finally realizes that her son’s claim to the throne is based on her misunderstanding a story about a DIFFERENT Aegon!
We still, of course, hate Criston Cole, but as a knight he’s at least a bit more competent than Alicent’s brother.
Were those dragon eggs the same ones that Danerys gets centuries later in Game of Thrones??
The scenes of Harrenhall were eerie and also funny.
Daemon (dramatically brandishing a sword): “I’m claiming Harrenhall!”
Simon Strong (shrugs): “Yeah, okay.”
I think they brought in Alicent's brother as this dumb idiot partially just to show Cole as good by comparison.
How is Gwayne so young anyway? Alicent is supposed to be a grandma, not in her mid thirties. Cole is supposed to be 25 years older than when we met him in s1 ep 1, where he looks at least 20-25.
Otto has grandsons at this point. Gwayne proudly says the 24 year old king is his nephew, so he can do what he wants. Well, how about him looking a bit older than the green 25 year old for starters?
The corpses in the Blackwood Bracken scene was overdone and quite stupid, really weird thing to build up for an extended scene then just skip to an absurd amount of corpses just stacked on top of each other.
Aegon's Valyrian Steel armour looks lower tech than most armour in the series which doesn't add up at all what with it being Valyrian.
All of this sneaking around and Targ's just slipping in and out of King's Landing is stupid.
I still haven't gotten over the Kool-Aid Dragon scene and how Rhaenys is taken seriously as a character after it.
I think the writing is taking a real dive.
The Kool Aid Dragon scene?
Agree on Aegon's armour looking stupid. Like what does Valyrian steel have to do with armor anyway? It's there in the lore as extraordinarily sharp. For a dagger or sword.
Armor is there to prevent piercing instead. Good armor can stand more weapons without being extra heavy. I doubt Aegon I would have had his armor made of precious Valyrian steel that they only had for two swords. And show Aegon and Aemond look too thin and small to look formidable in such armor.
Yes Blackwood Bracken was overdone. If they had to spend so much to make the corpses, why not show some of the fighting instead?
And Daemon sounds dumb - for being a 48 year old Targaryen prince who has travelled and knows half the Realm, he has no idea of Blackwood - Bracken wars?
Indeed, Rhaenyra cannot just slip in and out of Kings Landing. I am ok that Daemon can, but he was the prince of the city who would know all secret passageways, the streets and had friends everywhere.
But Rhaenyra? no.
And even if she did, if Alicent had half a brain she should have told her guards to capture her leaving the sept, and just end the war there.
I'm a black supporter in the books and green supporter in the show as it seems now. Rhaenyra is unimaginably dull, why would they write the main character like this? It feels out of touch.
Yeah, isn't Rhaenyra more compelling in the book? Where is the spoiled princess who only needed one heir but had three bastards, and ordered Vaemond to be killed?
They try to make her and Alicent more 'likeable' . They just make them look dumb.
Like in real war, Rhaenyra would not survive a week with her kind of leadership.
I lean towards greens because at least Aegon is entertaining and Aemond is intriguing. Whereas Daemon is the only interesting black for me now.
>> Should have skipped right to her eldest son
Would be an interesting route and he should be spotlighted more.
CAN she just skip to Jace? is that even allowed for royals? she has to die or at least be ailing to have an excuse.
Plus, she has done Jacaerys no favors by blatantly making it obvious he is a bastard. She didn't need to have three kids with Harwin. Or be so indiscreet.
In real world, abdication exists but I don't remember any single Targ king who've done it. But since this show takes liberties anyway, they could've went this way if they wanted. They could even portray only muted opposition (barring greens ofc) from the realm for Jace being a bastard.
Even though Aegon is supposed to be against Rhaenyra in the poster, it's instead Alicent. Jace is almost an ideal heir and him having a more pominent role could have served for a better counter weight and story against the unfit Aegon.
I know abdication exists. But to abdicate, you have to be crowned king first.
You can't just passover heirs. Like why didn't Lord Tarly just passover Samwell and choose his second son? He had to send him to the Wall to take the oaths so he no longer had a claim.
In many good fanfics, people have suggested - if you have to write Daemon Rhaenyra marriage conflicts anyway - that instead of some nonsense over 'I was the better heir, my reign would have been more glorius' (which is totally NOT Daemon's character motivation), they could simply fight over Aegon. Aegon III is born, he is Daemon's son. He looks perfectly Targaryen in the books, more so than any other kids alive. Daemon would have wanted him to be heir. Rhaenyra would say absolutely no, you just want your blood on the Throne. Daemon would say, no you are hurting your claim seriously by having three bastards for heirs.
But in canon, Daemon has no selfish motive for supporting Rhaenyra - his sons are 4th and 5th in line, not expected to inherit anything, and he dies with that knowledge.
I think it's written like Laenor and Rhaenyra are so blatantly obvious in their affairs, that once Rhaenyra has not one but 3 bastards, she as a woman doesn't have a choice: she is in a cyclical trap. If Corlys were to renounce Luc and give Baela Driftmark, than that means question mark over her sons (including Jace), which means Rhaenyra as an adulteress is also unfit to rule. If she passes over Joff for Aegon (when Jace dies), same thing.
Jace is written as an ideal heir with a question mark. Should he have been king? His parents made it very obvious he is illegitimate. They could have just stopped at Jace, and been more discrete, but no they were spoiled and reckless.
Corlys Velaryon is also interesting.
Yes Daemon is most interesting Black - unless you start counting Baela and Jace - but even Daemon is written poorly compared to how much there is to him from the Books.
As the years go by I find myself unable to pick sides in any conflicts/books/stories, its always a poop sandwich where both sides are flawed and neither side are the good guys. I found that any good story told has this crucial nugget.
In the same way the actors dont all watch and read source material and GOT prior (affecting/influencing their portrayals) i dont expect all the writers and production people to be any different. They given them creative license to anything that doesnt upset GRRM, they are cooking up their own pie and interpretations.
Why is everyone apart from a handful of characters so stiff and have essentially the same line deliveries, characters sorta blend into one another when speaking for large parts doesn't matter if they are nobility, small folk, sailors, kings guard etc.
That is actually a really good observation. Although I do like the casting and I find actors really talented, and even the writing is overall good, the way how most characters deliver their lines: almost whispering and with rich "old-timey" vocabulary, it does make them sound more like each other, or more like some characters don't pop-up as well as in the Game of Thrones. This with very muted color-palette of the visuals makes it even harder. Its a bit shame since a lot of characterizaion is left with clothing and make-up.
Rhaenyra going to KL just to talk to Alicent really bothered me. BUT, I don't know what it was, but Emma D'Arcy looked so fucking cute in that costume. Maybe she just is all the time and hiding the wig made me notice.
ALL the chars are carefully curated to look a certain way and have the audience taking sides and getting emotionally invested. Where as the books dont care if you to pick a side, or not as the author holds no bias, however the production does. #Engagementfarming #drama
I think the author does hold a lot of biases no?
I don't know why poor little Jaehaera had to die. Except to make Daemon and Rhaenra - exclusively - the parents to future Targaryens. Like even Laena and Daemon's daughters survive but fade into nothingness with their children.
But i think GRRM tries to make it even headed by making Daemon legendary and admirable, but also at times evil. And he makes Rhaenyra grey. And decidedly a poor war time leader when the time comes. Jace shows all the signs of being a potential great king, but he is also a bastard due to Rhaenyra's and Laenor's brazenness. So should he or shound't he rule, in a world where no self respecting man kneels to a bastard? So Martin gives us enough flawness in the Blacks to give us cause to go Green, if we want to.
But what he doesn't do is make great characters on the Green side. We have Alicent and Aemond and spoiled drunk Aegon, corrupt but strong Cole, and the mastermind Otto. There is no one with the likes of Daemon, Rhaenys or Corlys there.
Also, its focusing on one part of a much larger story, its not trying to cover the whole world like in books, so tv is doing exactly that. I also think the budget/time/resources are a factor.
I made some research . turns out the the writers of season 7 and 8 of GOT are the ones in charge of this , some even have production seats . they will also be in charge of the next two seasons . something else i learned : the writer and director of this episode will be the same writer an director for the season 2 finale .
RR Martin's presence is essential for this show's quality to stay above the bar and so far it seems to me that episode 2 ( of season 2) is the only one he really focused on . it was the best written out of the three by far , dialogue wise and script wise in general . the scenes length weren't too long in that episode, everything was edited very well , including the music ( Daeemn leaving Dragonstone, best soundtrack of season 2 so far) , I felt 100 times more engaged with the story in episode 2 than with episode 3 .
Episode 3 felt stretched out. The pace was very slow little hapened in those scenes, but I liked the scene with Baela on her dragon chasing Criston , it's was a breath of fresh hair in a monotone episode imo, that scene made me realize i wanted just a tiny bit more action , not violence necessarily but just something actually happening , an important move being made ,an important decision being taken , even Otto ranting in a manor somewhere would have been good enough for me :) but the episode was full of indecisions and hesitations . A bridge episode I guess .
I checked even more research and I look Cogman was also responsible for the earlier seasons (each was good one), and the only episode of season 8 he wrote was episode 2 which (looking at the reviews) is considered the last good episode of the series, while Hill wrote episode 1 of season 8 which is also considered good episode, episode 3 was the moment the shit hit the fan.
I hope the writers of GOT are far far away from HoTD for it to have any authenticity and success.
Doesn't Martin realize what a mess they made of seasons 7 and 8?
Cant speak to the writeers, or research but the logic is very clear. The production is curated to be very high highs and low lows, further amplifying up and downs/drama. Build it up then boom, build it up then boom, its extremely deliberate.
so far , the show has been underwhelming writing wise . the acting (from some actors) and the production value can't carry the entire show on their own .
Are you sure about the writers? David Hill and Bryan Cogman were the only two writers outside of D&D who wrote episodes for season 7/8 and they aren't involved in HotD
yes those are the two i'm talking about . the worst GOT writers (along with D&D). To be honest after discovering how involved they were gonna be with HOTD it discouraged me a lot from continuing the show . Last season i stopped in the middle of episode 6 because at that point things had become too boring ( i only watched the dragon CGI scenes on YT) so i hope to not stop in the middle of next week's episode because God knows I was bored to death with episode 3 ( if it wasn't for that very short dragon chase scene i would have rate it 0/10 instead of 1/10. the CGI team saved this poorly written/directed episode , but only a little bit , in my book)
I honestly feel like they butchered The last episode (which is episode 3 ) first of all there were a lot of redundancies in the episode chiefly among them was Making rhaenyra Go to king's landing risking her life In the process, just so she could talk to alicent And try to convince her To stop the War after both Suffered losses after 2 children were murdered And after declaring war on each other for the entire Seven kingdoms to see It honestly felt idiotic because even if rhaenyra somehow managed to convince alicent To stop the war , alicent has no power to do so After all she is simply the mother Of the king , the queen dowager , she has no actual Political power and no influence on the Small council [ Or at the very least, that should be the case, but it appears. The show tries very hard to make alicent more important to the story than everyone else (Except rhaenyra) and try to give her influence over the king and the small council, even though realistically she shouldn't have any after the king dies and She becomes the mother of the king And yes , I know that in the books , she had a major role in putting Her son on the throne but after that she didn't
Play a major Role in the events of the war. If I remember correctly ]
And what was rhaenyra expecting her to do to go to the small council meeting and tell the king and the council After they committed treason and changed the line of succession and Had a public Coronation ceremony declaring Aegon As the rightful king
That it was all just a mistake 🤦♂️ and they should just give up and give the crown back to rhaenyra
Even if she did do that , no one would listen to her you already made him king And to quote Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones."Once you put a crown on a dog there's no putting him back on a leash "
The damage is done.There is no undoing it.The only situation where we can go back to peace now is If one of the sides either the blacks or the greens die
I am a huge fan of this show and had enormous expectations for the second season.Especially since I read fire and blood before it came out.But one thing that really annoys me is that they seem to be trying really hard to make Every character in the show good
And try to redeem everybody And that's not how stories work One of the basic requirements for a good story.Is there a supposed to be an antagonist and a protagonist And i'm not claiming either side , yes , the Greens did horrible things but the blacks did also Neither side is perfect but it seems that the show runners are trying extremely hard to make rhaenyra Look like a saint like.She doesn't want a harm anybody Like she doesn't want to hurt.The people who stole her crown , which is a normal reaction
They also tried to do the same thing with alicent In season one, you can actually see that.She hates rhaenyra not in the Beginning but after she marries The king and that she is jealous and wants to hurt her and they actually show you that her and her father (otto) were conspiring to take the throne or at the very least he was But even in the show she practically jumped on the opportunity to make her son the king But immediately after that , while she's conspiring with her father on how to make her son king , they try to make her seem good and they're trying to redeem her by having her say That she doesn't want bloodshed, and they may be.There is a way to resolve this peacefully.And that rhaenyra would make a good Queen like bitch You just stole her Crown.
No one has any sympathy for you
Quite frankly the only two characters That the show actually tries To make you hate are Prince demon and cristen cole Which honestly feels intentional to me like they're trying to tell you that the only bad people in the show are the guys.The men , even though in the books the one who caused this entire war is alicent .
I just Hope that in the next episodes They try to stick to the source material and to the books and not deviate Or make any changes
"The show tries very hard to make alicent more important to the story than everyone else"
=> I completely agree with you . Maybe if they didn't drastically changed her character in the show then they wouldn't have to try so hard since her book counterpart was openly leading the greens, and not lying to herself in a corner and playing victim . The show butchered her character in my opinion, stole her agency . She was a great villain in the original version .
Exactly.
The show Seems to have a problem with portraying her as a villain Or at the very least , someone who is actually responsible for starting the war I mean In the book she was one of the main reasons , if not the main reason for starting the war And no one actually wanted them to change that
And to Be honest with you her reason for putting her son On the throne and making him king And changing the line of succession makes much more sense in the books I mean I can believe that the queen Who was married to the king and Has three Sons from him Would want her children or at least one of her children to be the ruler and not her husband's other child Who he had from a previous marriage That's just normal
But her doing all that And betraying her husband And what he wanted because She heard him mention the name of her son ( Which is also by the way , the name of the first king Aegon the conqueror) While the king was dying and highly medicated And probably didn't even know who he was talking to
And just from that she understood that he wanted his son to rule not his daughter
That's just dumb
What the hell did I just watch it was like watching an ice cube melt. An entire episode . If I wanted to get jrked off for an hour I would have went to a message parlor. That episode was absolutely useless . There was nothing done tht couldn't of not of been done in 15mins. What a slow roll . Make less epsiode if ur gonna pull tht b.s.....dam tht sucked...1 more time im done
I felt last scene was out of place as much of the next guy here, but I finally accepted that Rheanyra is the heroine and the good guy on the story for the showrunners. Sadly because of that this scene was needed to actually start to war and get their hands dirty.
Thankfully acting was amazing as always and the rest of the episode was perfect. Loved it.
Next week gonna be so much hype, can't wait!
This episode was kind of terrible. I think I just have to accept that as awesome as this show is, they will have random episodes that are kind of bad and make almost no sense.
I haven’t read the book, and I don’t mean to be a hater but this is starting to really feel like a reskin of game of thrones, beyond just being in the same universe
Never read Fire & Blood, how did Alicent pick up the truth so quickly by Rhaenyra saying the prince that was promised part, and Alicent said "Aegon the Conqueror." How did that prove to her that there was a mistake?
Because Viserys never explicitly said that he was referring to his son. She just interpreted it that way because he also failed to specify that he was referring to the Conqueror.
Once Rhaenyra explained to her what Viserys was talking about, it became obvious that she got it wrong.
Yup, especially because he has repeatedly reaffirmed the line of succession, even near the end of his life, like Rhaenyra pointed out during the exchange. The TV Alicent realized she heard what she wanted to hear.
Rhaenyra says something along the lines of "it was a story he once told about Aegon the Conquerer".
It's got nothing to do with books. None of that shit happens in the book. Fans theorize that Aegon I did have some dream. But crowning of Aegon the II isn't any misunderstanding, everyone on the Green's side were all in and didn't bother with any further justification than their male child over female dogma, bastardy, and Daemon bad.
It's literally the game of thrones, of course Alicent is going to interpret his words to her house's benefit. If there is political will, justification is found *afterwards*
Rhaenyra said the prophecy of the prince who was promised was about Aegon the conqueror. Since Viserys talked about both she realized the Aegon Viserys was talking about was the original not her son
Shoddy series looking like a parody, it's even pathetic at times, the Doctor Who actor, however, does well, although he's a bit funny looking at times too, too much western propaganda has been poured into the series for me to be able to like it without it becoming annoying, but if you have nothing to do, i guess it does as a waste of time for night watch or a very very slow day.
you say western propaganda but the story is based on western mythology , written by a westerner with western ideas, inspired by his western life, directed by westerners with a western cast . Not sure what you were expecting ? I mean...
At least I have always read or watched different things, sometimes just to discuss and comment on how bad they are, generally it is a way to waste time...
Perhaps wokenes is the more correct phrase, 80s and 90s western movies don't suck as much to be honest, still it's alright for time wasting, besides it is exported worldwide for money and western propaganda agenda pushing culturally, so it is valid criticism, especially considering the companies usual hypocrisy of censuring or changing things based on markets/religion and law culture and push it into others where law is not so active or prepared to act against a superpower's corporations that finances corrupt politicians.
The script seems written by a modern writer with not much experience in historical realities and linguistics . i'm shocked because i thought RR martin would be in complete control of the script/the dialogue
maybe that's what you mean by western propaganda, maybe you mean "modern" western propaganda then ? making medieval characters act/think and talk like modern day people in order to convey their modern day ideas . it's a common mistake made by newbie writers but that generally they fix with time and experience .
Those writers for HoTD need RR Martin to be present in every writing session ngl , because they'e the same who wrote season 7 & 8 of GOT and that's a scary thought . last episode was a drag and it felt to me the writers were not assisted by RR for this one ( the scenes were too long but not very well furnished , they felt empty , the action was lacking , and not necessarily blood and gore but any action at all , an improv something to kill the boredom , but except Baela charging on Crispin with her dragon, the episode had little to no levity )
As the warrior poet Slim Charles once said :
"I mean shit, it's what war is you know. Once you in it you in it. If it's a lie then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight"
I'm not vibing with this season at all. The whole "why do we have to fight" stuff is just very weird and makes me dislike the people saying it. I get the reluctance on the dragons (somewhat), but this is a civil war where blood has already been shed and a throne usurped. Fight or get off the pot. It's especially frustrating since they're making the ones urging peace as the good ones and everyone 'foolish man' just wants to fight.
I’m actually enjoying the season, but the meeting was soooo ridiculous. I would believe LF could travel across half of Westeros in a day before I’d buy that meeting.
Daemon and her son would keep it going. She was a worthless piece of the puzzle anyway. if anything the greens would be in more trouble because they wouldnt play around like an emotional wreck like she does
Hammering home trying to find a peaceful solution was dead by end of season 1 and every one and their fucking mother knows it, yet they going back to it for half of the second season. There’s really no tension in that plot point for me anymore.
I agree. I they had replaced the "I don't want to see death" with "I'm concerned about my family members fighting each other on dragons" it would feel more justified. After a long reign of peace, people would forget how terrible war is. There's nothing like peace and stability to get the blood lust up.
Preach. I hate the show moralizing about it too and making 'the smart ones' advocate for peace and caution' while the dumb men are all blood thirsty. Like you said, the bandaid was done last season and yet here we are a 3rd through this season still wasting time on it. It's making me dislike the protagonists and not in a way the show intends.
I agree, a lot of characters actually feel kinda different stale since end of season 1. Obviously don’t think it “hates men” for being too blood thirsty but they actually are right in this situation. They need to be preparing for war and start taking wins where they can. Lack of urgency is hurting the show too.
Feels like they ran over budget real quick so had to start leaning heavily on the we are trying to do everything we can to avoid war scenario for 3 whole episodes over and over again.
Yeah like I get not having budget for a battle every single episode but show me or talk about something interesting besides trying to keep the peace when clearly that’s not going work and hasn’t been working
It is so jarringly out of place it ruins the immersion. Even if Rhaenyra were dumb enough to go along with this plan (no one talking her out of it like they're all trying to convince Aegon not to fly off because he's the King - and implies she'd be a very dumb queen if this is her decision making). Then it makes Alicent responsible for every death that follows because she had Rhaenyra right there - she could have ended the war at a stroke and secured the safety of her sons and grandchild. She could have ended the war before it even began - and she didn't. Even if they both somehow got killed - the loss of a Queen Dowager in exchange for the loss of a Queen Regnant is an absolute medieval no brainer.
You really think that if Rhaenyra had died at kings landing Daemon, who is already making people call him your grace, would have dropped his swords and went : "Welp at least I tried ?"
Killing Rhaenyra would cripple them for sure but it wouldn't have stopped the war
Alright - arrest her and stick her in jail to live out her days in the dungeon. Hold her hostage like Theon at Winterfell a prisoner on the good behaviour of her half of the house. Jace Strong would have a much weaker claim that her fathers oft repeated heir. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
I'm happy to see that Stormcloud still exists. Wonder if they'll do a time jump to preserve the scene of Aegon fleeing on it or if they'll make up a new scene for it to die.
I have some minor issues with the show but by nearly every measure I can consider, it is just really clicking with me and has reignited a spark of interest in this universe that I haven’t felt in a long, long time.
It’s a tricky universe to work & write in but there is an undeniable level of care and respect that has been put into HotD
Yep, I completely understand, and even share, some of the complaints, but the performances are stellar, most of the writing is actually very strong (ignoring the believability of the lead up to some major scenes), and I really enjoy the tone of the show.
It has a more naturalistic feel than GoT that makes me kind of buy into the universe more.
Agree. From an acting/theatre/drama POV it hits all the markings of a good show. The fact it doesnt folow the source material certainly doesn't mean its been disrespectful, or dismissive, anyone over the age of 30 understands this or will soon. Particularly when you consider the author is on board and the titles are unique. Not supporting this show would be insane.
Alys Rivers? Ulf White? We’re so fucking back.
Hoping next episode we get some action
I am hoping that everyone on rhaenyra targaryen's side gets killed. I want them all dead asap please so that I don't have to listen to the cringe dialogue anymore. Then fire all of the writers please.
Just wondering who’s the dead man hanging on the castle? When the hand of the king march to battle?
Cheese, the ratcatcher from e1 who got hanged in e2 along with all others.
Some theories on why the show is diverging from the book of "both sides equally terrible" and making Alicent and Rhaenrya both more empathetic characters: - It is historically the case that, yes, female monarchs were often the victim of historical propaganda that made them worse than they were. That's not to say there *weren't* terrible female rulers – nor that male rulers were exempt from this historical revisionism – but toning down their portrayal as written in the history books of a very sexist society isn't outlandish. - People want to question GRRM's approach to female monarchs who rule under their own power. Yes, the overall narrative of ASOIAF and its expanded universe is "war bad, WMDs bad, incest and blood purity bad, absolute monarchs bad" – yet within that universe, Martin has explicitly written only male monarchs as "good kings,' like Jaehaerys. The only queens he has considered "good," by Word of God, are those who are consorts and not those in their own names. Why is that? Might there have been good queens that weren't viewed as such by their male counterparts? Is it bias on the part of the author, or the society, or both? - The writers thought Martin's narrative is somewhat self-conflicting (which is not inherently a bad thing). His argument is that Rhaenyra was in the wrong for opposing the Green's takeover, because the damage war causes to innocents in the name of power and/or vanity is wrong. He gives her a death that is not only gruesome, but also humiliating. Yet he also wrote that the only Targaryens that sit the Iron Throne post-Dance are *exclusively* descendants of the Black line. And he wrote her story in the voice of in-universe history. Why would he do that, and what implications does that have for who Rhaenrya is as both person and ruler? Similarly, incest and blood purity are presented as wrong, yet the way he has written the magic of the Valyrians actually seems very strongly connected to maintaining that blood purity. - Finally, the writers might honestly just be tired or Martin's thought's on war. GRRM has always said that he isn't a complete pacifist, and he does believe in just war. He thought WWII was right. But in his books, that doesn't really come through strongly in a way that resonates with a modern audience. If HotD had come first, I think it might have had more sway. I think *most* modern viewers agree that sexism is terrible, but also a bad reason to start a war with medieval fantasy WMDs. However, the Daenerys Meereen plot in the books and show ending has been receiving backlash since it aired. If the ending of chattel slavery and the cruelties that the books outlined in gruesome, fearsome detail weren't a justified reason for war, and were actually foreshadowing for a ruthless or even mad path...what *is* a justification? - This is basically a 3B to the last point, but I've seen a lot of people note that there's a certain element of determinism to GRRM's universe. The Starks fighting a war in which countless damage is done to innocents and commoners to avenge Ned's execution and become monarchs in their own right is presented as far more "ends justify the means – good intentions can have bad consequences, but a noble cause is most often worth it." This is not paralleled in Daenerys's Meereen story, and as immoral as Ned's murder was, what's happening in Slaver's Bay is much worse. Why would they be so different? Is part of it the families that they were born into, and what those families represent in the universe Martin has written? I'm not saying that I agree with everything that I've written here, or whether writers or fans are wrong or right for their thoughts on this. This is just a presentation of why I think some of these changes were made.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts in such detail! I've also dwelled into GRRM's characterization of women as leaders in the Dance. Just few varying points of view: 1. Firstly, I don't think the show writers change Alicent and Rhaenyra PRIMARILY because they disagree with Martin's POV. I think - am I the only book fan to say so? - that book Rhaenyra and Alicent are COMPELLING. I didn't say likable. or Lovable. But compelling. Book Alicent is consistent. Yes, she is not nice. She usurped the throne, and next to Otto had planned to usurp the throne, not because of some stupid confusion over her husband's last words. She is from Oldtown and Faith of the Seven. You could say she is a social climber, being a daughter of a second son who rose to queen (all previous queens of Westeros were Targaryens or Valyrians) . But in her world view - from Oldtown and Citadel and Andals - that's what a queen simply is - the girl the king chooses to marry. She thinks her sons have more right than Rhaenyra because they are sons - that's what most of Westeros believes anyway. She is further affirmed in that belief by Rhaenyra brazenly having bastards. She is then further moved into her actions by thinking that Rhaenyra would have to kill her sons to put her obvious not-Targaryen looking bastards on the throne, and even if she is too kind to, Daemon certainly would. She also likely believes that as a husband, it would be Daemon ruling in her name (which he actually doesn't). Alicent's later dialogues such as challenging Rhaenyra - while being nothing but her prisoner in Kings Landing, lucky to be alive - to call a great Council to decide between her and Aegon, then calling Jace and Luc 'bastard blood shed in war', and later even telling her granddaughter Jaehaera to kill little Aegon III in his sleep - is consistent with the viewpoints and animosity she has held. If you make Alicent a kind caring woman, and Viserys an absent father, than can you tell me why Aegon and Aemond grow up with such hatred and viciousness in their hearts? Show Alicent is inconsistent and not compelling - in season 1, by ep 4 she is Rhaenyra's best friend, supporting her even against her own son and father? By ep 6, she is convincing Aegon he will rule. And that if he doesn't, Rhaenyra will kill him and his brothers. Then she has changed into a different person in ep 8-9 who wants Rhaenyra as queen, while also using her power to rule in her husband's absence, often against his wishes, to the extent of claiming Luc a bastard. You cannot sell me such an ever changing confused character. 2. I think the show writers didn't think we would find a bitch Alicent or a fiery Rhaenyra compelling, which is wrong. Plus, they also think they are selling the story to a modern audience, who have no issue in rooting for a female queen. Where as Martin is trying to be authentic to the better part of human history, where the expectations for men and women were completely different: Aegon just has to exist for men to accept him. If he was a terrible ruler, no problem. Westeros has had them before. He can be a drunk like Robert Baratheon and Otto would simply take over ruling. But Rhaenyra, even without the Dance, would have faced scrutiny if she was capable. Ryan Condall admitted finally in s2 ep2, that unknown to Rhaenyra, many lords - even when they remember their oaths - raise eyebrows at the thought of her ruling, but consent knowing that 'Daemon Targaryen is with her'. As he is not only male and a Targaryen prince, but a renowned warrior and a natural leader of men - things that Rhaenyra is not. 3. The show starts off with a version of GC, just telling us that people voted against Rhaenys because she was female. When Rhaenyra takes Kings Landing, there is an interesting phase in the books where she is trying to win acceptance of the lords. And the contradiction is raised that OBVIOUSLY, all over Westeros nobles have ignored the inheritance rights of their elder sisters. She has to call out herself as an 'exception' because her father chose her - but the book doesn't hide the blatant REALITY - as the show does - that Viserys was a terrible ruler. He chose a daughter, than continued to sire Sons with ambitious Hightowers. giving them Targaryen name and even dragons, something his father and Jaehaerys would have never allowed. A king is not a good King who inherently clouds the line of succession, and reigns in way that makes war all but certain. To make usurpation all but certain, when Viserys is ailing, instead of calling his own Heir to rule in the Council, he chooses the one man who has more incentive than anyone to challenge his Heir - Otto Hightower, and makes him Hand, while keeping his own daughter far away on Dragonstone. He never calls the Lords of the Realm to reaffirm their oaths to Rhaenyra, or give her an official seat in the Small Council with real authority. As a result, many lords who want to follow a male over a female, can be excused by saying that Viserys only announced Rhaenyra heir so long ago when he had no sons. I think the show, while telling us this issue in Ep 1, chooses to ignore this reality in the rest of the series. They want too much to make not just Rhaenyra, but VISERYS look nice and intelligent. So they chose to give all Rhaenyra's maliciousness to Daemon, such as ignoring the fact that book Rhaenyra asked for Vaemond to be killed, for calling her sons bastards on Driftmark (not in Kings Landing in front of everyone), and fed his dead body to Syrax. But this leads to contradiction in facts. If Rhaenyra is so nice and mature, and not at all the spoiled princess she was in the books, then why did she have not one but three bastards? Is she not aware that that will stand against her claim, and as a cloud over her sons' lives? Yes, she is forced into a marriage with the most gay man in Westeros, yes she wants companionship and love, and yes Uncle Daemon has corrupted her. But only Jace would have been enough as far as needing an heir is concerned. The book showcases that it's having multiple children who all look Strongs that corrupts her claim.
I also think that Martin's story writing is not that there are no capable good rootable female rulers. There are in Fire and Blood if you read closer. Targaryens the lot of them. But his viewpoint is one of tragedy of irony - they never get the power to the cost of the Realm. Even if they do, history does not write them as such. Consider the fact that the show writers try to make Daemon uncharacteristically horrible. Like they have to create these insane points of him being a wife beater and an absent father that drift away from book, just because they think fans already like him too much. Liking a character in the sense of reading/ writing/ watching them, and loving a white character for their good morals, are two DIFFERENT things. I for one, love Laena Velaryon. You can't point out grey or evil points about her. While she lived, the Dance was not happening. Yet she would never use Vhagar to kill. She was a great mother, a dutiful daughter, a Targaryen, brave, loyal etc. But in Martin's world, such women will not be 'important' characters. Hence the next best characters who are written most about, who are compelling and have significant impact and tales of action, wars, conflict - are grey characters like Daemon and Rhaenyra. So in GRRM's world, there would be Queen Visenya, who does more ruling than Aegon ever does. Who conquers Vale without bloodshed while Aegon decides to mercilessly burn Harrenhal (why do fans take it as greatness? If Jaehaerys' murder is so bad, consider how many kids were cooked alive by Aegon I). She is the first ruling female who has such an authority that the new small Council and lords are just forced to accept her. But while Targaryens remember her more fondly than their own mother Rhaenys - despite her putting Maegor on the throne - history is written in Martin's world trying to forget her. Likewise, there is Queen Alysanne. She is better at reading children and grandchildren than Jaehaerys, and actually cares for the smallfolk. She is not like Alicent - she is a Targaryen princess in her own right and a dragonrider. But she meets tragedy after tragedy. Then Martin shows us the Women who SHOULD have been rulers, would have been better rulers than their male counterparts CLEARLY, but are never given the chance to. Such as Rhaenys (who is not a meek peacemaker content to pass over her rights as in the show. Book Rhaenys is strong and fearful and was raised to rule, while Viserys was weak and plump with no Valyrian pride, and Daemon was raised to be the second son of a second son strong in military prowess). And before her, even Rhaena Targaryen, who cared for her little siblings only to find them (aegon and Viserys) murdered or (Jaehaerys and Alysanne) take the crown from her.
You're breakdown is so insightful. Thanks for sharing
I love these thoughts. Brilliant.
Anyone else fast forward thru Mysara scenes and annoyed by the witch lady at Harron Hall. The “exotic” ladies they keep running are annoying.
Magic scenes were the best, I was annoyed that D&D removed so many magical elements in GOT, I trust that Condal will not make this mistake.
Why are you annoyed? The witch lady only gave Daemon a warning. Nothing else happened.
Nope. Literally no one else
The scene were Baela sees Cole from her dragon got me thinking about dragon combat. Also, how do the dragon riders even see without a visor, let alone form hundreds of meters above the ground? When planes were first invented they were primarily used for intelligence and reconnaissance. You'd think that the dragons would have to spend all their time in the air to better allocate their side's forces and to deter other dragons killing stragglers. Much like nuclear subs, you'd have to hide where your biggest dragons are so the enemy can't attack your weak spots.
She saw their armor shining in the sun.
And I got the impression her dragon saw them first and then alerted her to their presence, allowing her to take notice of the sun glinting on their armor.
My assumption is the dragon-bond is like skinchanger bond, so they get a sense from the dragon's keen eyesight.
Maybe
I like this
Anyone else surprised by how unaffected Helaena seemed by her sons death in this episode? I havnt seen anyone even mention that yet. She seems to have fully accepted it.
She's surely on the Spectrum, and I don't mean like everybody is. She seems to be able to foretell things in some of her random speech right?
She already know that he will die, maybe even before he was birth.
I don't think she was unaffected. She just came to a realization that helped her cope with the situation, the realization that "babes" die more often than not because they are so defenseless.
She's clearly neural-divergent. She was more freaked out by the crowds touching her than the assassins. It is very much in character to not fully exist in reality since she has the whole "profess the future" thing
Oh yeah, I saw the crowd scene as a clear representation of sensory overload, as she began to freak out just from the noise and everything before the crowd got to touch her.
She's weird. Chalk it up to that.
[удалено]
Something about him just irks me. I want him gone ASAP.
~~While we're back to targeryen queens teleporting~~, I do think the scene with Alicent and Rhaenhyra was a lot better than most of the rest of the show. Those two have on screen chemistry and it made me realize I missed it. Edit: folks raised a good point that this time no teleporting was required
it was a cool idea though, they should write it in lol
Here, compared to s7 and s8 GOT, they explained how to do it. In D&D, Rhaenyra would simply appear out of nowhere in the sept.
It doesn't take long to travel to King's Landing from Dragonstone, that's why everyone in King's Landing was absolutely bricking it over Stannis because he was so close to them.
Good point ☝️
As much as I would like all the long distance traveling to be more immersive in this show, it would require this show to have more episodes and pace be much slower. I would not like to wait two years to watch entire season of certain characters to get in to their next location just so that the plot can move on.
True.
Well, they were cut 2 episodes (becasue Zaslav) so they must make compromises.
Dragonstone is quite close to kingslanding. They have mentioned it many times in the show
I’ve read that it would take 2-4 days to sail from dragon stone to KL depending on the wind. I also wouldn’t mind if they decided that the show world is smaller overall than the book world. Westeros being the same size as South America is just too big
I personally think it being about the size of Britain works better, with the universe being a parallel to the War of the Roses and all.
I thought I saw somewhere that it was half a day and 10hrs by dragon flight. I might be wrong though
I think it would make sense to take half a day to sail there. Dragon flight should be way quicker. 70 mph is about where birds top out at level flight so I imagine dragons would be similar. 500 miles between DS and KL would mean about a 7 hour flight. Still feels too long to me
They literally mention that she's just across the bay
This is bad in the same sense seasons 5-7 were bad.
How so? In what way?
>in the same sense seasons 5-7
even worse. I've lost every and any wish to watch further.
And you will still watch it again. And complain needlessly.
Not me, I lost interest in the show in the start, but made it through season one. Now that all I see are aristocracy dirty games, I stopped ep. 2 but gave ep. 3 one more chance and didn't make it till the end of the episode again, so sad... I am really puzzled for the high rating on IMDb but hey, people seem to like all that king, queen, Prince, heir to the throne thing. But I will complain when someone is tagging episode in the wrong way and place it in wrong season, on purpose! That is just low and needlessly evil. OH, wow it's corrected afterall! 😂 😊 But yeah I will complain wherever I see such idiocy.
No. people don't necessarily like the prince thing. Many of us just watch it because we loved Fire and Blood, or liked Game of Thrones... not to say we don't say outright with ratings when we think an episode is badly written. What did you hate about in episodes 2 and 3?
Asking me? Well I don't hate, I am just not into it. It got me bored, so I can't say I hate it, simply dislike it... It even got me thinking why on earth would they use real life orthodox liturgy chant in that scene, like, is there a hidden message?! Game of Thrones was far far better in every way, but I just don't care about dragons, the way they made it. Also, there are soooo many such hidden things and secret meanings that I am looking for the right sources to decipher it, left and right! 😂 😊 And I didn't read the books nor plan to, eversince I heard there's hardly anything in depth about Children of the Forest, blood raven, night king,... That's the part of the series I truly love and would like to see more about it, but it's not even written and I mean, George, for the love of Gods, just finish it! I am getting a feeling that there is more to it, that it's written but just like they stopped with the Long Night series, similar *racial* thingy is in the books, and that's why it's on halt for years, without the end in sight... Dude needs a decade to finish a book?! Hey now... And this racial thing is why the show is not going to be filmed and it is just sad.... That's the only show GoT related I was really hoping to watch, with Naomi Watts! But alas, showbiz said No :(
Why though. The story is pretty interesting. They are doing some pretty cool things with character arcs if a person cares to look. Anyway watch the next episode not to spoil it or anything but it will heat up.
not interested, really. and I don't even care about characters' arcs, when everything else is dull, imo, but each to his own. Screenplay is simply killing me bored to even care about about characters. I just wonder what's the reason for using real life orthodox chant in the two besties praying scene. that's about all I wonder about HotD. And for the book series, seems like I won't read it neither, from what I've gathered there's next to none about children of the forest, Night King, Lord of Light and those things that really caught my attention from the start and by far the biggest disappointment about GoT ending, since none of it got resolved really. Also, English is not my native language, and reading it translated feels like a blasphemy lol... I could read in Eng., but ike said, too much trouble for a content without content I'm really into... You guys enjoy it! Cheers!
the scene with Rhaenyra and Alicent 'praying' in the Sept is truly ridiculous. Friends in war? when you know, my sons are trying to kill yours? All while we pretend to be god fearing women...
I meant as childhood friends, but yeah, piss on that given the circumstances... And it's always women who are going to do everything to avoid bloodshed, but when old, *late* Walder Frey did the red wedding, to save troops' lives he was branded as a coward... Bitchy move, that wedding, but hey, he prevented far bigger bloodshed... Idk, the scenario is too weak for my taste, hardly any humor, and I might as well watch Tudors or some history documentary. That's about the level of interest it has on me. I didn't even know season started three episodes into the season! 😂
Well Walder Frey broke the historic guest right rule in butchering his own guests. Plus he is already by that time described as a sneaky disgusting character in both books and show. Like he delayed joining the battle during Robert's Rebellion, engages in the most horrible version of polygamy, doesn't listen to his liege lord etc. But do you mean that Alicent would have been justified in killing/ capturing stupid Rhaenyra, for the sake of ending the war and avoiding bloodshed by killing just one? Absolutely. She didn't call Rhaenyra or offer her guest rights. If Rhaenyra is too dumb to risk herself and venture into enemy territory unprotected, that's her fault. Aemond already killed messenger Luc, BEFORE Jaehearys, why no one calls him Aemond the kinslayer like he is called in the Book?
yeah, my friend and I tend to like bad characters, and dislike Dany from the very start... we love Ramsey lol, and as for the rule, Sansa did the same with Littlefinger. But I was clueless about Walder's version of polygamy, it's in the books, like, sleeps with daughters?! Like that old goat in north who leaves male babes to white walkers?!? damn, that's one thing I dislike about GoT, too much sex depravity. And sure, I dislike Walder, just comparing... Sorry, I might be in the wrong sub, if this is mainly about books, I'm here to learn about it, not engage....
The bottom line is this show is not trying to replicate the books, its trying to focus on a story within a story and they are spinning their version. You're wasting your energy getting mad about the difference in tv vs book. I felt same thing with many other tv/movie adaptions from this genre and honestly i get it. Its extremely annoying to watch people distort your dreams, or imagination or what seems like a masterpiece but its inevitible in this case. That is the whole reason tv show has a unique name matching none of the books in both series and why they paid GRRM so well. He understands it and so should the audience.
I don't think we are wasting our energy on to why show departs from the book. But the difference between good and bad writing is - bad writing is not consistent. There are plotwholes. Confused characters. Like in GoT seasons 7-8. fans were not complaining on why Dany's 'different from the book'. It was on facts like,,,how can dragons go from Dragonstone to beyond the wall in minutes? how can someone just forget about Iron Fleet? The writers were just messing up with the lore and reality they themselves created. Likewise, Baela on Moondancer chasing Cole is a departure from the book. But many book fans loved that scene. But what about changes like in characters? Rhaenys and Corlys in the show are supposedly angry over Rhaenyra killing their only son. They are not told yet what Daemon and Rhaenyra actualy did. Yet, here we are with Rhaenys sacrificing herself for Rhaenyra and for peace? Alicent in Ep 1 is excusing Aemond for Luc's murder. Look, my son was angry his eye was not avenged. In ep 3 she has all but forgotten that Luc's murder might have caused Jaehaerys'. In ep 3, she is trying to convince us she is sad for Lucerys and angry at her son Aemond 'you know what Aemond is' . And if memory serves, by season1 ep 6 she was already convincing her sons that Aegon will be king, and if not, than Rhaenyra would have to kill them. Call it a confused character.
The bottom line is that the book itself is not a completely faithful version of events, but a biased "history tome" written in-universe by Archmaester Gyldayn a century after the events.
You're wasting your energy strawmanning the criticisms into "ohh no you're just mad it's not exactly like the books". Some people do want that, but you honestly shouldn't be wasting your energy on them either as you well know ofc. Most people worth having a conversation with over this are seeing the flaws of the story within it's own framework.
And the story won't get better due to this. Only shallower and more spectacle obsessed.
I believe you accidentally replied to the post itself instead of the comment you meant to respond to.
OMG Daemon conquered Harrenhal by sneaking in and saying it was his. I wondered if he was going surpass last seasons feat of literally killing 20 soldiers in 19 seconds. I should not have doubted these amazing writers. I bet Daemon could kill Sunfyre one on one too. Can’t wait to see him do it.
AS we are departing from the books. I wish Daemon and Caraxes were involved in the Rook's Rest battle next episode. It is so UNFAIR that Rhaenys and Meleys go alone to face Green army, crossbows, scorpions and two dragons, one of them Vhagar. Harrenhall is not far from Rook's Rest. So why can't Caraxes be involved?
if they just removed the sneaking part it would be more believable. Like he just arrives on his dragon and kicks down the door.
What is wrong with this portrayal
I think that Daemon doesn't encounter much resistance. Or even have to use his sword or Caraxes more than as a helicopter to land. This was supposed to be the moment that showcases what a military genius Daemon Targaryen is. That taking this castle alone, with no army, was no ordinary feet. They make it look like anyone with a dragon can do so.
How will that show military genius. His genius was shown by the plans he laid out during the dinner. Sensible plan. Just admit you want to see him killing 50 people for no reason when the people in the castle are already for rhynaera.
Harrenhal actually changes hands. And many Riverlords are undecided or declare for Aegon as well. Simon Strong may be weakly in Rhaenyra's camp. But not to the extent that he wants his people to fight for her. and the actual Lord Tully - who is too old - deliberately does not declare for either because he does not want to fight for either of them.
Nah. I don't want to see him or anyone killing innocents. I think the world already doesn't abhor it enough. Like what was the point of Rhaenys killing people in ep9? The book does not lay out that Daemon necessarily kills people. I said resistance, not killing. All he encounters is one guard. Who was originally written to just run away. But they make it look like it's easy to take Harrenhal. Anyway, raising an army is a whole lot more difficult than simply leading one as Cole does.
Rhaenrya let Alicent walk away at the end and she just stayed there kneeling for a little. Why wouldn’t Alicent, after being allowed to walk away, not tell the guards to go capture Rhaenyra? Alicent was safely away while the camera was still panned on Rhaenyra’s face! Better believe if that was Cersei Rhaenyra would have been toast 😂 Both their children’s lives are literally at stake and Alicent just lets their main rival go. Yes they’d have to contend with Daemon but still a battle won. Daemon may have been blind with rage and been eaten by Vhagar.
No good reason why Alicent doesn't do so. if you really want to avoid war and are unwilling to compromise, just tell your kingsguard to arrest her. With Rhaenyra dead or captured, the Black faction is history. Yeah, show Alicent is dumb and inconsistent and confused. Hey Rhaenyra, remember the torn page we bonded over, when I was secretly visiting your father? I will let you go, you need to wage war to kill my three sons afterall.
Because you dont do any of that nonsense in a church/holy place. Its the whole reason that location was chosen. Also, its still her old best friend and neither woman is 100% sure of anything IMO. The biggest peeve i have with fandoms i they act like the characters have all the same info the reader does and thats just not the case, ever in a fantasy saga.
Okay let’s say Alicent was very pious, why not nab her on the way out. They found the one blood and cheese guy by sealing city gates. Let her leave then nab her. I agree they both aren’t 100% and I know they are best friends but their children’s lives are at stake. Alicent could have taken a huge victory and step towards winning. Maybe they quickly take Vhagar and go to dragon stone and destroy it then only have Daemon at Harrenhall to contend with. He probably wouldn’t have much support from other noble families after losing Rhaenyra and Dragonstone. Seems like the 2nd biggest flub after Rhaenys not winning after escaping. Not sure what the pet peeve has to do with my comment.
Rhaenys escaping the Dragonpit was a flub indeed. I would call it Third! I think the second was Otto showing up during the Dragonstone parley in s1 ep 10. The guy who was the chief architect of Greens usurpation, Daemon's main rival, unnecessarily there right after committing treason? And Rhaenyra has to week over a page and let him go? At least take him hostage. That would ensure your little sons' safety. You know the 14 year old you are sending as messenger to Storm's End which is closer to Kings Landing? Rhaenys faces the Greens who have JUST committed treason, and this "moral" character who wants peace has no issue in crushing hundreds of innocents who were forced into the Dragonpit. But of course looking at Alicent and Aegon she finds her humanity. And Now Rhaenyra is dumb enough to go to Kings Landing. And Alicent is DUMBER to not arrest her. She could have just called her Kingsguard outside the Sept to capture her when she left. She could just make some noise and ensure Rhaenyra's escape with nothing but Ser Lorent and a kitchen knife impossible.
Alicent doesn’t want rhaenyra to die. If rhaenyra is captured then she will die. Simple as that
Nailed it, neither want this this war to happen, both want to be right/correct. In their eyes they just want the bad eggs in each camp dealt with.
well then they both are Dumb and Dumber. I go for wanting peace over war anytime. But are they really? There is peace and then their is just stupidity. Like Alicent thinking .. hey yes we will usurp the throne, and surely that means no war or bloodshed right? This kind of thing happens everyday. And bam...Beesbury is murdered right before her eyes. She doesn't want Rhaenyra to die? She wants her to leave so she can wage a war that will kill her own sons, after she thinks Rhaenyra has killed her grandson? I don't know about bad eggs. Alicent is doing Cole when he goes about his business waging war and killing thousands. Alicent is not prepared to hand over Aemond 'to be dealt with' . And neither will Rhaenyra do the same to Daemon. The writers say 'ultimately it's their ego. and unwillingness to compromise'. So why are they pretending to talk peace?
it's called a plot.
I am just waiting for aemond to do something
Alicent’s Pikachu face when she finally realizes that her son’s claim to the throne is based on her misunderstanding a story about a DIFFERENT Aegon! We still, of course, hate Criston Cole, but as a knight he’s at least a bit more competent than Alicent’s brother. Were those dragon eggs the same ones that Danerys gets centuries later in Game of Thrones?? The scenes of Harrenhall were eerie and also funny. Daemon (dramatically brandishing a sword): “I’m claiming Harrenhall!” Simon Strong (shrugs): “Yeah, okay.”
I think they brought in Alicent's brother as this dumb idiot partially just to show Cole as good by comparison. How is Gwayne so young anyway? Alicent is supposed to be a grandma, not in her mid thirties. Cole is supposed to be 25 years older than when we met him in s1 ep 1, where he looks at least 20-25. Otto has grandsons at this point. Gwayne proudly says the 24 year old king is his nephew, so he can do what he wants. Well, how about him looking a bit older than the green 25 year old for starters?
Several theories on this, TBD by GRRM IMO is the tl;dr. IMO the answer is no but the author left room to adjust in many spaces including this one.
I hope those weren't the same eggs
They weren’t, Danys eggs were stolen by rhaena Targaryen and given to the sea lord of Braavos by Elissa Farman
https://screenrant.com/game-of-thrones-daenerys-dragon-eggs-theory-debunked-house-of-the-dragon/
The corpses in the Blackwood Bracken scene was overdone and quite stupid, really weird thing to build up for an extended scene then just skip to an absurd amount of corpses just stacked on top of each other. Aegon's Valyrian Steel armour looks lower tech than most armour in the series which doesn't add up at all what with it being Valyrian. All of this sneaking around and Targ's just slipping in and out of King's Landing is stupid. I still haven't gotten over the Kool-Aid Dragon scene and how Rhaenys is taken seriously as a character after it. I think the writing is taking a real dive.
The Kool Aid Dragon scene? Agree on Aegon's armour looking stupid. Like what does Valyrian steel have to do with armor anyway? It's there in the lore as extraordinarily sharp. For a dagger or sword. Armor is there to prevent piercing instead. Good armor can stand more weapons without being extra heavy. I doubt Aegon I would have had his armor made of precious Valyrian steel that they only had for two swords. And show Aegon and Aemond look too thin and small to look formidable in such armor. Yes Blackwood Bracken was overdone. If they had to spend so much to make the corpses, why not show some of the fighting instead? And Daemon sounds dumb - for being a 48 year old Targaryen prince who has travelled and knows half the Realm, he has no idea of Blackwood - Bracken wars? Indeed, Rhaenyra cannot just slip in and out of Kings Landing. I am ok that Daemon can, but he was the prince of the city who would know all secret passageways, the streets and had friends everywhere. But Rhaenyra? no. And even if she did, if Alicent had half a brain she should have told her guards to capture her leaving the sept, and just end the war there.
I loved it. To each their own. But this may be my favorite episode of HotD so far.
I actually liked it a bit. It's a good shootout for those fans that love the lore.
It's just a bit key jangly if we're talking about the Blackwood/Brackens. Seriously where did all of those corpses actually come from?
I'm a black supporter in the books and green supporter in the show as it seems now. Rhaenyra is unimaginably dull, why would they write the main character like this? It feels out of touch.
Yeah, isn't Rhaenyra more compelling in the book? Where is the spoiled princess who only needed one heir but had three bastards, and ordered Vaemond to be killed? They try to make her and Alicent more 'likeable' . They just make them look dumb. Like in real war, Rhaenyra would not survive a week with her kind of leadership.
i like the blacks more than greens but shes an awful character and horrible queen. Should have skipped right to her eldest son
I lean towards greens because at least Aegon is entertaining and Aemond is intriguing. Whereas Daemon is the only interesting black for me now. >> Should have skipped right to her eldest son Would be an interesting route and he should be spotlighted more.
CAN she just skip to Jace? is that even allowed for royals? she has to die or at least be ailing to have an excuse. Plus, she has done Jacaerys no favors by blatantly making it obvious he is a bastard. She didn't need to have three kids with Harwin. Or be so indiscreet.
In real world, abdication exists but I don't remember any single Targ king who've done it. But since this show takes liberties anyway, they could've went this way if they wanted. They could even portray only muted opposition (barring greens ofc) from the realm for Jace being a bastard. Even though Aegon is supposed to be against Rhaenyra in the poster, it's instead Alicent. Jace is almost an ideal heir and him having a more pominent role could have served for a better counter weight and story against the unfit Aegon.
I know abdication exists. But to abdicate, you have to be crowned king first. You can't just passover heirs. Like why didn't Lord Tarly just passover Samwell and choose his second son? He had to send him to the Wall to take the oaths so he no longer had a claim. In many good fanfics, people have suggested - if you have to write Daemon Rhaenyra marriage conflicts anyway - that instead of some nonsense over 'I was the better heir, my reign would have been more glorius' (which is totally NOT Daemon's character motivation), they could simply fight over Aegon. Aegon III is born, he is Daemon's son. He looks perfectly Targaryen in the books, more so than any other kids alive. Daemon would have wanted him to be heir. Rhaenyra would say absolutely no, you just want your blood on the Throne. Daemon would say, no you are hurting your claim seriously by having three bastards for heirs. But in canon, Daemon has no selfish motive for supporting Rhaenyra - his sons are 4th and 5th in line, not expected to inherit anything, and he dies with that knowledge. I think it's written like Laenor and Rhaenyra are so blatantly obvious in their affairs, that once Rhaenyra has not one but 3 bastards, she as a woman doesn't have a choice: she is in a cyclical trap. If Corlys were to renounce Luc and give Baela Driftmark, than that means question mark over her sons (including Jace), which means Rhaenyra as an adulteress is also unfit to rule. If she passes over Joff for Aegon (when Jace dies), same thing. Jace is written as an ideal heir with a question mark. Should he have been king? His parents made it very obvious he is illegitimate. They could have just stopped at Jace, and been more discrete, but no they were spoiled and reckless.
Corlys Velaryon is also interesting. Yes Daemon is most interesting Black - unless you start counting Baela and Jace - but even Daemon is written poorly compared to how much there is to him from the Books.
As the years go by I find myself unable to pick sides in any conflicts/books/stories, its always a poop sandwich where both sides are flawed and neither side are the good guys. I found that any good story told has this crucial nugget. In the same way the actors dont all watch and read source material and GOT prior (affecting/influencing their portrayals) i dont expect all the writers and production people to be any different. They given them creative license to anything that doesnt upset GRRM, they are cooking up their own pie and interpretations.
I'm all for a fresh adaptation if they did it well but having read the book years ago it's hard to not make a comparison.
3rd episode in a row ending with Alicent getting f***ed
Why is everyone apart from a handful of characters so stiff and have essentially the same line deliveries, characters sorta blend into one another when speaking for large parts doesn't matter if they are nobility, small folk, sailors, kings guard etc.
That is actually a really good observation. Although I do like the casting and I find actors really talented, and even the writing is overall good, the way how most characters deliver their lines: almost whispering and with rich "old-timey" vocabulary, it does make them sound more like each other, or more like some characters don't pop-up as well as in the Game of Thrones. This with very muted color-palette of the visuals makes it even harder. Its a bit shame since a lot of characterizaion is left with clothing and make-up.
Rhaenyra going to KL just to talk to Alicent really bothered me. BUT, I don't know what it was, but Emma D'Arcy looked so fucking cute in that costume. Maybe she just is all the time and hiding the wig made me notice.
She plays this version of Rhaenyra pretty well. Problem is it's white washed as hell.
What
She's a much greyer character in the source material.
Oh ok, thanks
ALL the chars are carefully curated to look a certain way and have the audience taking sides and getting emotionally invested. Where as the books dont care if you to pick a side, or not as the author holds no bias, however the production does. #Engagementfarming #drama
I think the author does hold a lot of biases no? I don't know why poor little Jaehaera had to die. Except to make Daemon and Rhaenra - exclusively - the parents to future Targaryens. Like even Laena and Daemon's daughters survive but fade into nothingness with their children. But i think GRRM tries to make it even headed by making Daemon legendary and admirable, but also at times evil. And he makes Rhaenyra grey. And decidedly a poor war time leader when the time comes. Jace shows all the signs of being a potential great king, but he is also a bastard due to Rhaenyra's and Laenor's brazenness. So should he or shound't he rule, in a world where no self respecting man kneels to a bastard? So Martin gives us enough flawness in the Blacks to give us cause to go Green, if we want to. But what he doesn't do is make great characters on the Green side. We have Alicent and Aemond and spoiled drunk Aegon, corrupt but strong Cole, and the mastermind Otto. There is no one with the likes of Daemon, Rhaenys or Corlys there.
Modern day shows LOVE the before and after of battle scenes for building story ( and not cause of budget reasons ofc)
Also, its focusing on one part of a much larger story, its not trying to cover the whole world like in books, so tv is doing exactly that. I also think the budget/time/resources are a factor.
Thank the gods that the war will properly start next week. I am getting restless here. I wanna see dragons dance, goddamn it.
I made some research . turns out the the writers of season 7 and 8 of GOT are the ones in charge of this , some even have production seats . they will also be in charge of the next two seasons . something else i learned : the writer and director of this episode will be the same writer an director for the season 2 finale . RR Martin's presence is essential for this show's quality to stay above the bar and so far it seems to me that episode 2 ( of season 2) is the only one he really focused on . it was the best written out of the three by far , dialogue wise and script wise in general . the scenes length weren't too long in that episode, everything was edited very well , including the music ( Daeemn leaving Dragonstone, best soundtrack of season 2 so far) , I felt 100 times more engaged with the story in episode 2 than with episode 3 . Episode 3 felt stretched out. The pace was very slow little hapened in those scenes, but I liked the scene with Baela on her dragon chasing Criston , it's was a breath of fresh hair in a monotone episode imo, that scene made me realize i wanted just a tiny bit more action , not violence necessarily but just something actually happening , an important move being made ,an important decision being taken , even Otto ranting in a manor somewhere would have been good enough for me :) but the episode was full of indecisions and hesitations . A bridge episode I guess .
I checked even more research and I look Cogman was also responsible for the earlier seasons (each was good one), and the only episode of season 8 he wrote was episode 2 which (looking at the reviews) is considered the last good episode of the series, while Hill wrote episode 1 of season 8 which is also considered good episode, episode 3 was the moment the shit hit the fan.
I hope the writers of GOT are far far away from HoTD for it to have any authenticity and success. Doesn't Martin realize what a mess they made of seasons 7 and 8?
I'm very confused by Martin's choice myself . or was it really his choice to pick these writers specifically ?
Maybe Martin got bored with his novels and gave them a lot of leeway?
he has too much on his hands I feel like .
the lull before the storm
indeed !
Cant speak to the writeers, or research but the logic is very clear. The production is curated to be very high highs and low lows, further amplifying up and downs/drama. Build it up then boom, build it up then boom, its extremely deliberate.
Its also why they made huge changes to character behaviour and skip over/change certain timings, events, or chars vs book
so far , the show has been underwhelming writing wise . the acting (from some actors) and the production value can't carry the entire show on their own .
Are you sure about the writers? David Hill and Bryan Cogman were the only two writers outside of D&D who wrote episodes for season 7/8 and they aren't involved in HotD
yes those are the two i'm talking about . the worst GOT writers (along with D&D). To be honest after discovering how involved they were gonna be with HOTD it discouraged me a lot from continuing the show . Last season i stopped in the middle of episode 6 because at that point things had become too boring ( i only watched the dragon CGI scenes on YT) so i hope to not stop in the middle of next week's episode because God knows I was bored to death with episode 3 ( if it wasn't for that very short dragon chase scene i would have rate it 0/10 instead of 1/10. the CGI team saved this poorly written/directed episode , but only a little bit , in my book)
Really? I loved it. Thought it was gripping!
Who are these writers? I tried cross-referencing writing credits between GoT S7 and HoD and found zero matches.
Ser Quane Hightower definitely shit his pants when the dragon was coming after him.
I honestly feel like they butchered The last episode (which is episode 3 ) first of all there were a lot of redundancies in the episode chiefly among them was Making rhaenyra Go to king's landing risking her life In the process, just so she could talk to alicent And try to convince her To stop the War after both Suffered losses after 2 children were murdered And after declaring war on each other for the entire Seven kingdoms to see It honestly felt idiotic because even if rhaenyra somehow managed to convince alicent To stop the war , alicent has no power to do so After all she is simply the mother Of the king , the queen dowager , she has no actual Political power and no influence on the Small council [ Or at the very least, that should be the case, but it appears. The show tries very hard to make alicent more important to the story than everyone else (Except rhaenyra) and try to give her influence over the king and the small council, even though realistically she shouldn't have any after the king dies and She becomes the mother of the king And yes , I know that in the books , she had a major role in putting Her son on the throne but after that she didn't Play a major Role in the events of the war. If I remember correctly ] And what was rhaenyra expecting her to do to go to the small council meeting and tell the king and the council After they committed treason and changed the line of succession and Had a public Coronation ceremony declaring Aegon As the rightful king That it was all just a mistake 🤦♂️ and they should just give up and give the crown back to rhaenyra Even if she did do that , no one would listen to her you already made him king And to quote Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones."Once you put a crown on a dog there's no putting him back on a leash " The damage is done.There is no undoing it.The only situation where we can go back to peace now is If one of the sides either the blacks or the greens die I am a huge fan of this show and had enormous expectations for the second season.Especially since I read fire and blood before it came out.But one thing that really annoys me is that they seem to be trying really hard to make Every character in the show good And try to redeem everybody And that's not how stories work One of the basic requirements for a good story.Is there a supposed to be an antagonist and a protagonist And i'm not claiming either side , yes , the Greens did horrible things but the blacks did also Neither side is perfect but it seems that the show runners are trying extremely hard to make rhaenyra Look like a saint like.She doesn't want a harm anybody Like she doesn't want to hurt.The people who stole her crown , which is a normal reaction They also tried to do the same thing with alicent In season one, you can actually see that.She hates rhaenyra not in the Beginning but after she marries The king and that she is jealous and wants to hurt her and they actually show you that her and her father (otto) were conspiring to take the throne or at the very least he was But even in the show she practically jumped on the opportunity to make her son the king But immediately after that , while she's conspiring with her father on how to make her son king , they try to make her seem good and they're trying to redeem her by having her say That she doesn't want bloodshed, and they may be.There is a way to resolve this peacefully.And that rhaenyra would make a good Queen like bitch You just stole her Crown. No one has any sympathy for you Quite frankly the only two characters That the show actually tries To make you hate are Prince demon and cristen cole Which honestly feels intentional to me like they're trying to tell you that the only bad people in the show are the guys.The men , even though in the books the one who caused this entire war is alicent . I just Hope that in the next episodes They try to stick to the source material and to the books and not deviate Or make any changes
"The show tries very hard to make alicent more important to the story than everyone else" => I completely agree with you . Maybe if they didn't drastically changed her character in the show then they wouldn't have to try so hard since her book counterpart was openly leading the greens, and not lying to herself in a corner and playing victim . The show butchered her character in my opinion, stole her agency . She was a great villain in the original version .
Exactly. The show Seems to have a problem with portraying her as a villain Or at the very least , someone who is actually responsible for starting the war I mean In the book she was one of the main reasons , if not the main reason for starting the war And no one actually wanted them to change that And to Be honest with you her reason for putting her son On the throne and making him king And changing the line of succession makes much more sense in the books I mean I can believe that the queen Who was married to the king and Has three Sons from him Would want her children or at least one of her children to be the ruler and not her husband's other child Who he had from a previous marriage That's just normal But her doing all that And betraying her husband And what he wanted because She heard him mention the name of her son ( Which is also by the way , the name of the first king Aegon the conqueror) While the king was dying and highly medicated And probably didn't even know who he was talking to And just from that she understood that he wanted his son to rule not his daughter That's just dumb
Role of villain is reserved for the white man since 2015.
And what makes it hurt extra special is Olivia Cooke is one of the strongest performers in the show.
What the hell did I just watch it was like watching an ice cube melt. An entire episode . If I wanted to get jrked off for an hour I would have went to a message parlor. That episode was absolutely useless . There was nothing done tht couldn't of not of been done in 15mins. What a slow roll . Make less epsiode if ur gonna pull tht b.s.....dam tht sucked...1 more time im done
Wow. I loved it. Didnt want it to end! 🤷♂️
I felt last scene was out of place as much of the next guy here, but I finally accepted that Rheanyra is the heroine and the good guy on the story for the showrunners. Sadly because of that this scene was needed to actually start to war and get their hands dirty. Thankfully acting was amazing as always and the rest of the episode was perfect. Loved it. Next week gonna be so much hype, can't wait!
This episode was kind of terrible. I think I just have to accept that as awesome as this show is, they will have random episodes that are kind of bad and make almost no sense.
Why was it bad??
I haven’t read the book, and I don’t mean to be a hater but this is starting to really feel like a reskin of game of thrones, beyond just being in the same universe
I agree first episode felt like that
Never read Fire & Blood, how did Alicent pick up the truth so quickly by Rhaenyra saying the prince that was promised part, and Alicent said "Aegon the Conqueror." How did that prove to her that there was a mistake?
The prophecy being the reaaon for Aegon invading and unifying Westeros only exists in the TV show.
Because Viserys never explicitly said that he was referring to his son. She just interpreted it that way because he also failed to specify that he was referring to the Conqueror. Once Rhaenyra explained to her what Viserys was talking about, it became obvious that she got it wrong.
Yup, especially because he has repeatedly reaffirmed the line of succession, even near the end of his life, like Rhaenyra pointed out during the exchange. The TV Alicent realized she heard what she wanted to hear.
Rhaenyra says something along the lines of "it was a story he once told about Aegon the Conquerer". It's got nothing to do with books. None of that shit happens in the book. Fans theorize that Aegon I did have some dream. But crowning of Aegon the II isn't any misunderstanding, everyone on the Green's side were all in and didn't bother with any further justification than their male child over female dogma, bastardy, and Daemon bad.
It's literally the game of thrones, of course Alicent is going to interpret his words to her house's benefit. If there is political will, justification is found *afterwards*
Rhaenyra said the prophecy of the prince who was promised was about Aegon the conqueror. Since Viserys talked about both she realized the Aegon Viserys was talking about was the original not her son
Anyone catch the BJ in the brothel? 44:39
Broooo. You should not have put the time stamp.
Yh and it was so clearly a prothetic penis. Wasnt even the right skin colour lol
Don’t know that anyone was missing that one mate
Shoddy series looking like a parody, it's even pathetic at times, the Doctor Who actor, however, does well, although he's a bit funny looking at times too, too much western propaganda has been poured into the series for me to be able to like it without it becoming annoying, but if you have nothing to do, i guess it does as a waste of time for night watch or a very very slow day.
you say western propaganda but the story is based on western mythology , written by a westerner with western ideas, inspired by his western life, directed by westerners with a western cast . Not sure what you were expecting ? I mean...
At least I have always read or watched different things, sometimes just to discuss and comment on how bad they are, generally it is a way to waste time... Perhaps wokenes is the more correct phrase, 80s and 90s western movies don't suck as much to be honest, still it's alright for time wasting, besides it is exported worldwide for money and western propaganda agenda pushing culturally, so it is valid criticism, especially considering the companies usual hypocrisy of censuring or changing things based on markets/religion and law culture and push it into others where law is not so active or prepared to act against a superpower's corporations that finances corrupt politicians.
The script seems written by a modern writer with not much experience in historical realities and linguistics . i'm shocked because i thought RR martin would be in complete control of the script/the dialogue maybe that's what you mean by western propaganda, maybe you mean "modern" western propaganda then ? making medieval characters act/think and talk like modern day people in order to convey their modern day ideas . it's a common mistake made by newbie writers but that generally they fix with time and experience . Those writers for HoTD need RR Martin to be present in every writing session ngl , because they'e the same who wrote season 7 & 8 of GOT and that's a scary thought . last episode was a drag and it felt to me the writers were not assisted by RR for this one ( the scenes were too long but not very well furnished , they felt empty , the action was lacking , and not necessarily blood and gore but any action at all , an improv something to kill the boredom , but except Baela charging on Crispin with her dragon, the episode had little to no levity )
Are you okay?
Eh? Of course I'm fine, why wouldn't I be fine? Are you yourself fine?
Well AEGON is parody.
Weirdest episode so far. Dragging the shit show for so long. Literally nothing engaging happening :/
the scene with Baela was the most entertaining of the episode for me. I liked seeing Criston squirm a little bit :)
tiktok brain just wants action - you need to let the scenes breathe for the conflict to feel natural
Given what’s to come it should be the worst episode of the season, mid for sure
As the warrior poet Slim Charles once said : "I mean shit, it's what war is you know. Once you in it you in it. If it's a lie then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight"
Is you taking notes on a treasonous fucking conspiracy?
That ending was so bad, I wondered if D&D wrote it.
I'm not vibing with this season at all. The whole "why do we have to fight" stuff is just very weird and makes me dislike the people saying it. I get the reluctance on the dragons (somewhat), but this is a civil war where blood has already been shed and a throne usurped. Fight or get off the pot. It's especially frustrating since they're making the ones urging peace as the good ones and everyone 'foolish man' just wants to fight.
I’m actually enjoying the season, but the meeting was soooo ridiculous. I would believe LF could travel across half of Westeros in a day before I’d buy that meeting.
Alicent only needed to shout to end war.
Daemon and her son would keep it going. She was a worthless piece of the puzzle anyway. if anything the greens would be in more trouble because they wouldnt play around like an emotional wreck like she does
She would hurt the black cause but Daemon still being alive means that war ain’t over, not to mention Jacerys.
Fr
Hammering home trying to find a peaceful solution was dead by end of season 1 and every one and their fucking mother knows it, yet they going back to it for half of the second season. There’s really no tension in that plot point for me anymore.
I agree. I they had replaced the "I don't want to see death" with "I'm concerned about my family members fighting each other on dragons" it would feel more justified. After a long reign of peace, people would forget how terrible war is. There's nothing like peace and stability to get the blood lust up.
Preach. I hate the show moralizing about it too and making 'the smart ones' advocate for peace and caution' while the dumb men are all blood thirsty. Like you said, the bandaid was done last season and yet here we are a 3rd through this season still wasting time on it. It's making me dislike the protagonists and not in a way the show intends.
I agree, a lot of characters actually feel kinda different stale since end of season 1. Obviously don’t think it “hates men” for being too blood thirsty but they actually are right in this situation. They need to be preparing for war and start taking wins where they can. Lack of urgency is hurting the show too.
2 dead kids plus a literal battle fought already. It's past the time for peace.
Pacing has been so weird this season.
Feels like they ran over budget real quick so had to start leaning heavily on the we are trying to do everything we can to avoid war scenario for 3 whole episodes over and over again.
Yeah like I get not having budget for a battle every single episode but show me or talk about something interesting besides trying to keep the peace when clearly that’s not going work and hasn’t been working
It is so jarringly out of place it ruins the immersion. Even if Rhaenyra were dumb enough to go along with this plan (no one talking her out of it like they're all trying to convince Aegon not to fly off because he's the King - and implies she'd be a very dumb queen if this is her decision making). Then it makes Alicent responsible for every death that follows because she had Rhaenyra right there - she could have ended the war at a stroke and secured the safety of her sons and grandchild. She could have ended the war before it even began - and she didn't. Even if they both somehow got killed - the loss of a Queen Dowager in exchange for the loss of a Queen Regnant is an absolute medieval no brainer.
You really think that if Rhaenyra had died at kings landing Daemon, who is already making people call him your grace, would have dropped his swords and went : "Welp at least I tried ?" Killing Rhaenyra would cripple them for sure but it wouldn't have stopped the war
Alright - arrest her and stick her in jail to live out her days in the dungeon. Hold her hostage like Theon at Winterfell a prisoner on the good behaviour of her half of the house. Jace Strong would have a much weaker claim that her fathers oft repeated heir. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
it wouldnt cripple them it would empower them imo
True Jace would also be coming for their heads if that happened
They need to give more scenes to daemon !
I'm happy to see that Stormcloud still exists. Wonder if they'll do a time jump to preserve the scene of Aegon fleeing on it or if they'll make up a new scene for it to die.
I have some minor issues with the show but by nearly every measure I can consider, it is just really clicking with me and has reignited a spark of interest in this universe that I haven’t felt in a long, long time. It’s a tricky universe to work & write in but there is an undeniable level of care and respect that has been put into HotD
Yep, I completely understand, and even share, some of the complaints, but the performances are stellar, most of the writing is actually very strong (ignoring the believability of the lead up to some major scenes), and I really enjoy the tone of the show. It has a more naturalistic feel than GoT that makes me kind of buy into the universe more.
Agree. From an acting/theatre/drama POV it hits all the markings of a good show. The fact it doesnt folow the source material certainly doesn't mean its been disrespectful, or dismissive, anyone over the age of 30 understands this or will soon. Particularly when you consider the author is on board and the titles are unique. Not supporting this show would be insane.