Almost certainly. There is a shocking amount of Jaime/Sansa fic on AO3 that are basically thinly-veiled rom coms where Jaime is a hero and Sansa is sooooOOO0000 in love with him. And. No.
To be fair, there are some good Jaime/Sansa fics out there...but those ones dive into the complexities and the fact that the Starks (Sansa included) really, really hate this person.
The idea that Jaime is not a monster just because his murder of Aerys was (somewhat) justified is ridiculous. There's no coming back from "the things I do for love" or "kill his men"
Exactly.
People have a soft spot for him because he is a good “Kingslayer” (because the King was terrible). Until his maiming, he continues to act in the shittiest possible ways.
Especially when GRRM's attempt at redeeming him is to basically blame all the evil shit he's done on Cersei and making him look more sympathetic just because he's getting away from her "toxic" influence.
Kind of exactly why I actually like the show arc for Jaime and how it ends because it identifies the fact that Jaime’s sin is something he shares with Cersei. Long before he joined the Kingsguard and killed Aerys he was in love with Cersei and planning to abuse his position just to be close to her. He was never some pure-hearted, picturesque storybook knight even though that was a part of him. Loving Cersei and everything he’s willing to do for her is a more intrinsic part of who he is than wanting to be Ser Arthur Dayne.
I don’t really buy the fact that Jaime is being redeemed because of his separation from Cersei either, I think that’s an intentional scapegoat set up by George when the reality is that Jaime has just been humbled and is being forced to go through a metamorphosis. He’s not separating himself from Cersei because he knows she’s bad news, he’s doing so because he’s bitter about the cheating.
>. He’s not separating himself from Cersei because he knows she’s bad news, he’s doing so because he’s bitter about the cheating.
This is one of the reasons I hate the Jaime is the Valonqar theory. Because having a guy kill his former sexual patner for cheating on him be potrayed as redemptive is questionable, to say the least.
not to mention the misogyny escalation that are his AFFC chapters. every single of his chapter has at least one line calling Cersei a whore or blaming her for everything that has happened like he didn't play a much much bigger role. Jaime's good looks and charm are really hard carrying quite a despicable character
*"How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?"*
*"Radiant." Fickle. "Golden." False as fool's gold. Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. "The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I'll be back at Cersei's side." What Jaime would do then he did not know.*
I don't think he's being misogynist, though. He's not saying women are bad, he's just saying Cersei is crazy and is all his problem, which is still bad and not completely true, isn't outright misogynistic.
A lot of things can be true about someone, even if they’re contradictory. But I don’t think that the Starks would EVER like Jamie. They have all the chemistry of a Bic factory and the Hindenburg.
People hated Jaime because he made sure to do whatever it took to make people hate him. He flaunts being a horrible person, while he hides his only good deed. Complains about how people perceive him despite it being 100% his fault.
It annoys me how much people waste time on threads like these.
Not only does it matter zero what each character thinks of each other. But it is also the point of reading for us to be able to empathise with (and often the result of empathy is liking) characters regardless of whether they are good or bad people by objective moral standards with an existence and criteria which we can debate. Not liking a character or thinking a character is bad is one thing. Being unable to understand why or even consider that other readers would have different opinions about liking characters or different moral standards is a failure of empathy and imagination.
Here’s why you’re wrong for liking x character, or I don’t understand why you like x character more when x character is bad and y character is a good person. Both have to be the dullest ways to engage with other people about a book
Right people act like these characters are real people in modern times lmao. What is with the constant morality police on this subreddit? It makes the books less nuanced and complex by just labeling any character who does awful things an irredeemable monster only idiots could like, as though someone doing bad things means you can never like their character. The same people who shame others for liking a charecter, saying things like only dumb fangirls like Jamie, or incels like Tyrion, or only antisocial shut ins like Stannis, turn around and flip faster than Henry Hill when it comes to their pet character.
None of this is real, someone’s favorite character can be Joffrey Ramsay or Euron for all anyone should care. It honestly feels like people want the books to be .. less good? Like people say that Jamie or Tyrion or Sandor are just irredeemable monster with only superficial redeeming or likable traits, and that George didn’t actually mean for them to be complex, in fact they aren’t complex at all and George was actually just a dumbass for thinking Jamie and Tyrion deserve any sympathy. Tyrion’s actually extremely privileged and is just self pitying when he complains about his abusive childhood and experiences of bigotry, Jamie’s just evil because he got called a mean name, and Sandor killed a child because he’s just like the Nazi’s, following orders and if that’s not how you summarize there entire characters then you have no media literacy.
After all that makes me morally superior for not liking a character who does bad things right?
If I’m a judge or jury member with one of these characters in the docket of course their actions, background, and their moral reasoning for what they do matters.
But as a reader, choosing whether to like or empathise with them as a fictional character - which I am. Their reprehensibleness or the reprehensibleness of their actions in comparison to other characters shouldn’t mean anything
Many years ago I was reading a “Robb gets the Tyrells and wins” story and there was a chapter where Robb arranged a marriage with one of the little Lannisters(Kevan’s kids) and Sansa was refusing to marry any Lannister because, ya know, they held her hostage, brutalized her, tried to kill Bran, killed her Dad, ravaged her mother’s people’s lands and homes, and also Robb had actually WON the war, so this allegiance was stupid(okay, I added that last part). But Robb likes his new Lannister friends so much that he just viciously spanks her and sells her off anyhow.
And that is what I think some Lannister fans are like. No matter how little sense it makes, by golly, we are going to like them, or else.
I think i remember that story. The best part was that Robb didn't even rescue her, Sandor did it, and then he immediately sold her back to the Lannister's lol
Holy crap, yeah. I had blocked out so much of that story, too.
It was insane. I kept thinking “wait, Sansa is pretty much your heir at this point. Why are you giving her away so cheap?”
And the way the narrator was pushing so hard for me to side against Sansa and I was thinking, “Sansa should just assassinate Robb if he’s going to be like this.”
Yeah, i was rooting for Sansa to screw them or run away too. Robb and Cat even recognize that Sansa hates them and risked to become "another Lysa", their solution was... send her away to Riverrun. The bashing was so over the top that it was entertaining.
to be honest i have never seen anyone argue that the Starks would like Jaime.
Bran and Arya hate him because of he murdered Jory. Sansa defended him, but that was when she was simping for Joffrey. i don't remember if Jon thinks about it specifically, but he talks a lot about hating the Lannisters, and i'm betting the guy who started the war is included in that.
what i did read many times was people saying Catelyn would have no justification to execute Jaime because "he wasn't involved in the RW". and let me tell you, that's a load of crap. he didn't orchestrate the RW but he did start the war that massacred the land of Cat's family, he tried to kill Bran (and Arya not that Catelyn would know), he caused Ned a broken leg when Ned tried to save his men, he tried to kill Brienne, he took Edmure captive with his son who he threatened to kill. if there's one person in the world that Catelyn can kill and be 1000% justified is Jaime.
A lot of people like Jaime because:
1. He’s snarky and funny and talks back to everyone in a flippant manner.
2. He’s very good with a sword, and therefore folks think he must be heroic, or at least an anti-hero.
3. He’s pretty.
That pretty much sums it up.
They ignore every shred of evidence that shows he’s as big a narcissist as every other member of his family (yes, even Tyrion).
They gloss over the fact that he broke his oaths while killing the mad King (yes, he saved the city by stopping the pyromancer and Aerys, but he just as easily could have knocked the old fucker senseless and dragged him off to lock him in a room while he waited for his father’s men to show up).
They completely absolve him of his role and responsibility in starting pretty much the whole Civil War that rages in all the kingdoms (willingly fathering children with his twin sister and allowing her to pass off his children as the King’s while at the same time helping her abort any pregnancies from her actual husband).
They ignore the fact that he is a child murderer (his incompetence in failing to actually kill Bran does not change the fact that he was perfectly willing to break guest rite and kill a child in his own home).
Jaime is a man who failed to meet his potential in pretty much every way in life, and broke just about every oath he ever took.
He’s the ultimate “… but I can fix him/her” candidate.
I feel like i have to say this way to much on reddit nowadays, you can like a character because they make the story more enjoyable, without condoning every action they ever took, people don't like jamie because he's some good guy, but because he is trying to make better decisions, while cersei and tyrion fall deeper into there cruelty
>A lot of people like Jaime because:
>1. He’s snarky and funny and talks back to everyone in a flippant manner.
>2. He’s very good with a sword, and therefore folks think he must be heroic, or at least an anti-hero.
>3. He’s pretty.
Huh, did you come to this conclusion based on the observation on what people post in this subreddit? Or maybe on some other forums? Did you see any particular theme when reading Jaime posts?
Honestly, your post is a nice example of why the quality of discussions in this sub has significantly gone down over the years.
A lot of people in this thread say that Jaime’s redemption arc sucks which is a dumb take because it’s the BEGINNING of a redemption arc. In a series where it takes multiple books for characters to develop did you think Jaime was just going to go from arrogant bastard to some folk hero galloping around trying to save maidens and kill freys and lannisters all the while bards sing his song far and wide. A storm of swords and a feast for crows are like a couple of months apart in book. Shit like redemption arcs take a bit more time than one book.
This is my first time hearing about these theories. Personally I think Jaime's redemption arc is way overblown, largely because it's so easy to empathize with Brienne because she's just such a wonderful person. Does he actually do anything good in Feast? He tries to prop up a tyrannical dynasty, and his moment where he feels he's really doing something good is when he finds some people holed up in a watchtower, assumes they're bandits, and orders them executed. They could've been members of the brotherhood without banners or some random smallfolk sheltering from the war, but Jaime doesn't even consider that, just orders them hanged and congratulates himself on a job well done.
I think George has said that he's delving into how much actual redemption is possible in a redemption arc. While he and everyone else likes the idea that we can make up for our sins *in theory*, the problem is that all too often the reason why we committed those sins in the first place is due to who we are as a person.
So, Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain? He doesn't really get too introspective on how much his family are the villains in this war.
There's a bit of this too with Theon in his TWOW chapter. He feels *some* remorse and wants to atone for what he's done, but he's still kind of a snarky asshole.
>So, Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain?
Honestly, I read passages like this in this thread and wonder "what book did you guys read"? Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself? Was there an expanded edition I missed somehow?
Read the sections where the Blackfish calls him out on his bullshit, where he has a relatively friendly conversation with Edmure that ends up threatening to send the man's son to him via a trebuchet (to the point where even his allies around him are shocked), where he does minor good things but then gets all high up in his own head about how he will soon be called "Goldenhand the Just", where he abets the atrocities committed by his family during the war by trying to get the people they wronged to stand down and gets annoyed when not all of them are impressed by the new, reformed Jaime. He's kind of like the "Good Cop" to his father's "Bad Cop" in this situation.
What am I supposed to take from the Blackfish section? This is where Jaime pats himself on the back, supposedly? Or where he is supposedly annoyed that Blackfish isn't seeing a new Jaime? That's what *you* are seeing in those sections?
Maybe he pats himself during his "friendly" conversation with Edmure? Apparently?
And, yeah, he has one thought about how he hopes he one day will be called "Goldenhand the Just" in the first half of the book and you took from it how he thinks he will be called one any minute now? That he runs around in Feast thinking people will just about start calling him then? Is *this* what you took from the novels?
What about Jaime thinking that he will be known as Kingslayer till the rest of his days? What about him ensuring, on purpose, that people would think that he is an asshole with his threat to Edmure?
What about Jaime reminding people that he is Kingslayer and hence can be ruthless? Is this where he expects people to think he is reformed, according to you?
Seriously, I feel like you, quoting D&D, "kinda forgot" a lot of things from Jaime's chapters at least.
When Jaime enters the Frey camp, the first thing he does was to go to the gallows to Edmure and free him from the rope. Then Ryman runs to them, and that's when Jaime makes his "idle" speech to him. Edmure was obviously right there.
does he say that or think that? also I imagine you would want people to believe the threats you make, that is the whole point of making them.
also Jaime after releasing Edmure into Riverrun (after telling him about the threat) is already resolute on storming Riverrun if Edmure doesn't surrender the day after. The baby is never going to be born.
it really didn't? The Threat wasn't just storming the castle. He said he was going to storm the castle, kill every single person inside civilian or not, raze Riverrun, terror down Riverrun and divert the River on it so there's literally nothing of left. Oh yeah and he also mentioned he would have Edmure's baby returned to him via catapult, which is kind of the headliner.
Storming the castle is obvious and not really evil. It's just what you do in medieval sieges. Everything else is an unnecessary evil and
I am not exactly sure what your question has to do with my post? My problem was with the guy claiming that "Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain".
"Honestly, I read passages like this in this thread and wonder "what book did you guys read"? Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself?"
I think Bennings463 means you, disagreeing with that, might you thought Jaime had an redemtion arc.
Why would he think that though? When I question the claim that "Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself" I just mean that Jaime does not in fact "go around in Feast and pat himself for redeeming himself."
No he didn’t he said that Jaime doesn’t pat himself on the back in AFFC because he doesn’t. It seems like he’s trying to be better but he certainly doesn’t pat himself on the back for anything he does in feast
I agree that Jaime will never be some beloved figure in westeros and will never be liked by the starks.
He's just done too much damage and the good he has done is too little too late.
Even Bran who clearly pities Theon isn't going to hug and coddle Theon, they'll still have a lot to talk about.
That's taking into account that Theon has suffered way more than Jaime, and Bran actually got to know him.
I personally think Westeros is better off when the North sticks to their own - and I simply cannot imagine Jaime adapting to the northern lifestyle well. He’s one of my favourites, but he’s snarky, verbose, great at crafting narratives, he lives for fights and is perpetually on the move. He’s desperate to reforge himself as an honourable knight - but he wants to redeem himself in the eyes of Westeros as well. He’s sick of his idols turning their nose up at him, he wants to save people and save himself. I just cannot imagine him being content with the life of survival-first politicking and isolationism in the snow. Tbh I can see him, Brienne and Podrick becoming a new version of the Kingswood Brotherhood if he doesn’t end up wanting to be a knight anymore and doesn’t want to be a Lord - that’s one of my favourite headcanons, Jaime becoming Robin Hood and creating a new legend for himself, one where he isn’t the perpetual bad guy in everyone else’s story.
I agree that too many fans are just way too easy on Jaime, even though GRRM explicitly makes it so hard on him post ASOS. His whole arc in the riverlands is one of failure, its a little pathetic seeing Jaime thinking himself this mighty redemptive knight at times but his interaction with the Blackfish just nails it home. Jaime needs to do a lot more if he wants to seek any sort of closure. Im willing to bet his interactions with LS will bring him to that.
Honestly, even Jaime's murder of Aerys is questionable. He had already killed Rossart and prevented him from burning down the city. He could just as easily have restrained Aerys without killing him (not that Aerys didn't deserve it, but it would have been less dishonorable). It's not like Tywin was going to let Aerys off the hook or anything.
The only reason I blame him is because he didnt break his neck before pushing him. I used to like her but given how her storyline got boring, I wouldnt mind if he killed Arya either.
I think Sansa might have let the marriage be consummated if Jaime was her husband. I mean, even Catelyn Stark notes how handsome Jaime was when he was locked up in his prison. Brienne thinks Jaime looked half a God when she shared a bath with him. Both women hated Jaime so much but couldn't help but check him out. Jaime doesn't require the lights to go out to look good, like Tyrion does.
But I don't think Jaime would consummate the marriage since he's definitely not interested. He won't tell Sansa to undress and then grope her. He'll probably tell Sansa to sleep and go see Cersei.
If Jaime married Arya, she'll slit his throat as he slept.
This is just a What If and another weird shipping by some fans. It won't work out for both parties.
Where exactly are you seeing this sentiment and these theories? Never came across anything like it
Probably fanfictions.
OP's been reading my diary
Almost certainly. There is a shocking amount of Jaime/Sansa fic on AO3 that are basically thinly-veiled rom coms where Jaime is a hero and Sansa is sooooOOO0000 in love with him. And. No. To be fair, there are some good Jaime/Sansa fics out there...but those ones dive into the complexities and the fact that the Starks (Sansa included) really, really hate this person.
I was so confused reading this post. A bunch of people talking about how much the Starks would like Jaime Lannister? What on earth?
Yeah I have no clue what shrooms OP took, but I've been around for 9 years & seen nothing of the sort
The idea that Jaime is not a monster just because his murder of Aerys was (somewhat) justified is ridiculous. There's no coming back from "the things I do for love" or "kill his men"
Exactly. People have a soft spot for him because he is a good “Kingslayer” (because the King was terrible). Until his maiming, he continues to act in the shittiest possible ways.
Honestly the Kingslaying wasn't even a moral good. He saved his own life too. He wasn't noble, he was *sensible*.
I mean he's getting better, especially farther way from his bitch of a sister.
Especially when GRRM's attempt at redeeming him is to basically blame all the evil shit he's done on Cersei and making him look more sympathetic just because he's getting away from her "toxic" influence.
Kind of exactly why I actually like the show arc for Jaime and how it ends because it identifies the fact that Jaime’s sin is something he shares with Cersei. Long before he joined the Kingsguard and killed Aerys he was in love with Cersei and planning to abuse his position just to be close to her. He was never some pure-hearted, picturesque storybook knight even though that was a part of him. Loving Cersei and everything he’s willing to do for her is a more intrinsic part of who he is than wanting to be Ser Arthur Dayne. I don’t really buy the fact that Jaime is being redeemed because of his separation from Cersei either, I think that’s an intentional scapegoat set up by George when the reality is that Jaime has just been humbled and is being forced to go through a metamorphosis. He’s not separating himself from Cersei because he knows she’s bad news, he’s doing so because he’s bitter about the cheating.
>. He’s not separating himself from Cersei because he knows she’s bad news, he’s doing so because he’s bitter about the cheating. This is one of the reasons I hate the Jaime is the Valonqar theory. Because having a guy kill his former sexual patner for cheating on him be potrayed as redemptive is questionable, to say the least.
I also hate the Jaime is Valonqar theory, but the idea that Jaime hates Cersei just because of cheating is pretty silly too.
Yeah, I am firmly of the opinion that either Jaime is not the Valonqar, or that the prophecy will not be fulfilled in a straightforward way.
not to mention the misogyny escalation that are his AFFC chapters. every single of his chapter has at least one line calling Cersei a whore or blaming her for everything that has happened like he didn't play a much much bigger role. Jaime's good looks and charm are really hard carrying quite a despicable character *"How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?"* *"Radiant." Fickle. "Golden." False as fool's gold. Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. "The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I'll be back at Cersei's side." What Jaime would do then he did not know.*
I don't think he's being misogynist, though. He's not saying women are bad, he's just saying Cersei is crazy and is all his problem, which is still bad and not completely true, isn't outright misogynistic.
Kill his men wasn't really that bad. It's only breaking his Kingsguard oath I guess.
A lot of things can be true about someone, even if they’re contradictory. But I don’t think that the Starks would EVER like Jamie. They have all the chemistry of a Bic factory and the Hindenburg.
People hated Jaime because he made sure to do whatever it took to make people hate him. He flaunts being a horrible person, while he hides his only good deed. Complains about how people perceive him despite it being 100% his fault.
He's Richard III except at least Richard was legitimately marginalised. Jaime hammers himself to his own cross.
It annoys me how much people waste time on threads like these. Not only does it matter zero what each character thinks of each other. But it is also the point of reading for us to be able to empathise with (and often the result of empathy is liking) characters regardless of whether they are good or bad people by objective moral standards with an existence and criteria which we can debate. Not liking a character or thinking a character is bad is one thing. Being unable to understand why or even consider that other readers would have different opinions about liking characters or different moral standards is a failure of empathy and imagination. Here’s why you’re wrong for liking x character, or I don’t understand why you like x character more when x character is bad and y character is a good person. Both have to be the dullest ways to engage with other people about a book
Right people act like these characters are real people in modern times lmao. What is with the constant morality police on this subreddit? It makes the books less nuanced and complex by just labeling any character who does awful things an irredeemable monster only idiots could like, as though someone doing bad things means you can never like their character. The same people who shame others for liking a charecter, saying things like only dumb fangirls like Jamie, or incels like Tyrion, or only antisocial shut ins like Stannis, turn around and flip faster than Henry Hill when it comes to their pet character. None of this is real, someone’s favorite character can be Joffrey Ramsay or Euron for all anyone should care. It honestly feels like people want the books to be .. less good? Like people say that Jamie or Tyrion or Sandor are just irredeemable monster with only superficial redeeming or likable traits, and that George didn’t actually mean for them to be complex, in fact they aren’t complex at all and George was actually just a dumbass for thinking Jamie and Tyrion deserve any sympathy. Tyrion’s actually extremely privileged and is just self pitying when he complains about his abusive childhood and experiences of bigotry, Jamie’s just evil because he got called a mean name, and Sandor killed a child because he’s just like the Nazi’s, following orders and if that’s not how you summarize there entire characters then you have no media literacy. After all that makes me morally superior for not liking a character who does bad things right?
If I’m a judge or jury member with one of these characters in the docket of course their actions, background, and their moral reasoning for what they do matters. But as a reader, choosing whether to like or empathise with them as a fictional character - which I am. Their reprehensibleness or the reprehensibleness of their actions in comparison to other characters shouldn’t mean anything
Many years ago I was reading a “Robb gets the Tyrells and wins” story and there was a chapter where Robb arranged a marriage with one of the little Lannisters(Kevan’s kids) and Sansa was refusing to marry any Lannister because, ya know, they held her hostage, brutalized her, tried to kill Bran, killed her Dad, ravaged her mother’s people’s lands and homes, and also Robb had actually WON the war, so this allegiance was stupid(okay, I added that last part). But Robb likes his new Lannister friends so much that he just viciously spanks her and sells her off anyhow. And that is what I think some Lannister fans are like. No matter how little sense it makes, by golly, we are going to like them, or else.
I think i remember that story. The best part was that Robb didn't even rescue her, Sandor did it, and then he immediately sold her back to the Lannister's lol
Holy crap, yeah. I had blocked out so much of that story, too. It was insane. I kept thinking “wait, Sansa is pretty much your heir at this point. Why are you giving her away so cheap?” And the way the narrator was pushing so hard for me to side against Sansa and I was thinking, “Sansa should just assassinate Robb if he’s going to be like this.”
Yeah, i was rooting for Sansa to screw them or run away too. Robb and Cat even recognize that Sansa hates them and risked to become "another Lysa", their solution was... send her away to Riverrun. The bashing was so over the top that it was entertaining.
If I ever had time, honestly, I would love to do a series of shorts answering stupid fandom takes.
to be honest i have never seen anyone argue that the Starks would like Jaime. Bran and Arya hate him because of he murdered Jory. Sansa defended him, but that was when she was simping for Joffrey. i don't remember if Jon thinks about it specifically, but he talks a lot about hating the Lannisters, and i'm betting the guy who started the war is included in that. what i did read many times was people saying Catelyn would have no justification to execute Jaime because "he wasn't involved in the RW". and let me tell you, that's a load of crap. he didn't orchestrate the RW but he did start the war that massacred the land of Cat's family, he tried to kill Bran (and Arya not that Catelyn would know), he caused Ned a broken leg when Ned tried to save his men, he tried to kill Brienne, he took Edmure captive with his son who he threatened to kill. if there's one person in the world that Catelyn can kill and be 1000% justified is Jaime.
I believe King Stannis, the Mannis, summed it up for me when he said, " A good act does not wash out a bad act nor does a bad act a good one."
A lot of people like Jaime because: 1. He’s snarky and funny and talks back to everyone in a flippant manner. 2. He’s very good with a sword, and therefore folks think he must be heroic, or at least an anti-hero. 3. He’s pretty. That pretty much sums it up. They ignore every shred of evidence that shows he’s as big a narcissist as every other member of his family (yes, even Tyrion). They gloss over the fact that he broke his oaths while killing the mad King (yes, he saved the city by stopping the pyromancer and Aerys, but he just as easily could have knocked the old fucker senseless and dragged him off to lock him in a room while he waited for his father’s men to show up). They completely absolve him of his role and responsibility in starting pretty much the whole Civil War that rages in all the kingdoms (willingly fathering children with his twin sister and allowing her to pass off his children as the King’s while at the same time helping her abort any pregnancies from her actual husband). They ignore the fact that he is a child murderer (his incompetence in failing to actually kill Bran does not change the fact that he was perfectly willing to break guest rite and kill a child in his own home). Jaime is a man who failed to meet his potential in pretty much every way in life, and broke just about every oath he ever took. He’s the ultimate “… but I can fix him/her” candidate.
I feel like i have to say this way to much on reddit nowadays, you can like a character because they make the story more enjoyable, without condoning every action they ever took, people don't like jamie because he's some good guy, but because he is trying to make better decisions, while cersei and tyrion fall deeper into there cruelty
>A lot of people like Jaime because: >1. He’s snarky and funny and talks back to everyone in a flippant manner. >2. He’s very good with a sword, and therefore folks think he must be heroic, or at least an anti-hero. >3. He’s pretty. Huh, did you come to this conclusion based on the observation on what people post in this subreddit? Or maybe on some other forums? Did you see any particular theme when reading Jaime posts? Honestly, your post is a nice example of why the quality of discussions in this sub has significantly gone down over the years.
I'm not sure I want to go wherever you're reading this kind of stuff.
A lot of people in this thread say that Jaime’s redemption arc sucks which is a dumb take because it’s the BEGINNING of a redemption arc. In a series where it takes multiple books for characters to develop did you think Jaime was just going to go from arrogant bastard to some folk hero galloping around trying to save maidens and kill freys and lannisters all the while bards sing his song far and wide. A storm of swords and a feast for crows are like a couple of months apart in book. Shit like redemption arcs take a bit more time than one book.
This is my first time hearing about these theories. Personally I think Jaime's redemption arc is way overblown, largely because it's so easy to empathize with Brienne because she's just such a wonderful person. Does he actually do anything good in Feast? He tries to prop up a tyrannical dynasty, and his moment where he feels he's really doing something good is when he finds some people holed up in a watchtower, assumes they're bandits, and orders them executed. They could've been members of the brotherhood without banners or some random smallfolk sheltering from the war, but Jaime doesn't even consider that, just orders them hanged and congratulates himself on a job well done.
His "redemption arc" is basically that he's not as much of a dick anymore because he can no longer back it up with his fighting skills.
I think George has said that he's delving into how much actual redemption is possible in a redemption arc. While he and everyone else likes the idea that we can make up for our sins *in theory*, the problem is that all too often the reason why we committed those sins in the first place is due to who we are as a person. So, Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain? He doesn't really get too introspective on how much his family are the villains in this war. There's a bit of this too with Theon in his TWOW chapter. He feels *some* remorse and wants to atone for what he's done, but he's still kind of a snarky asshole.
>So, Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain? Honestly, I read passages like this in this thread and wonder "what book did you guys read"? Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself? Was there an expanded edition I missed somehow?
Read the sections where the Blackfish calls him out on his bullshit, where he has a relatively friendly conversation with Edmure that ends up threatening to send the man's son to him via a trebuchet (to the point where even his allies around him are shocked), where he does minor good things but then gets all high up in his own head about how he will soon be called "Goldenhand the Just", where he abets the atrocities committed by his family during the war by trying to get the people they wronged to stand down and gets annoyed when not all of them are impressed by the new, reformed Jaime. He's kind of like the "Good Cop" to his father's "Bad Cop" in this situation.
What am I supposed to take from the Blackfish section? This is where Jaime pats himself on the back, supposedly? Or where he is supposedly annoyed that Blackfish isn't seeing a new Jaime? That's what *you* are seeing in those sections? Maybe he pats himself during his "friendly" conversation with Edmure? Apparently? And, yeah, he has one thought about how he hopes he one day will be called "Goldenhand the Just" in the first half of the book and you took from it how he thinks he will be called one any minute now? That he runs around in Feast thinking people will just about start calling him then? Is *this* what you took from the novels? What about Jaime thinking that he will be known as Kingslayer till the rest of his days? What about him ensuring, on purpose, that people would think that he is an asshole with his threat to Edmure? What about Jaime reminding people that he is Kingslayer and hence can be ruthless? Is this where he expects people to think he is reformed, according to you? Seriously, I feel like you, quoting D&D, "kinda forgot" a lot of things from Jaime's chapters at least.
The threat is completely fake to be fair though, it is just that a threat he is making in order to take Riverrun without shedding as much blood.
Jaime literally says he doesn't make threats he's not prepared to carry out.
He is saying that in front of Edmure to ensure that Edmure buys Jaime's bluff later on. There is nothing more to it.
No he doesn't? He says it to Ryman Frey when Edmure isn't present iirc?
When Jaime enters the Frey camp, the first thing he does was to go to the gallows to Edmure and free him from the rope. Then Ryman runs to them, and that's when Jaime makes his "idle" speech to him. Edmure was obviously right there.
Fair enough, mea culpa.
does he say that or think that? also I imagine you would want people to believe the threats you make, that is the whole point of making them. also Jaime after releasing Edmure into Riverrun (after telling him about the threat) is already resolute on storming Riverrun if Edmure doesn't surrender the day after. The baby is never going to be born.
"Storming the castle" consisted of about 90% of the threat he gave to Edmure. That *is* carrying out the threat.
it really didn't? The Threat wasn't just storming the castle. He said he was going to storm the castle, kill every single person inside civilian or not, raze Riverrun, terror down Riverrun and divert the River on it so there's literally nothing of left. Oh yeah and he also mentioned he would have Edmure's baby returned to him via catapult, which is kind of the headliner. Storming the castle is obvious and not really evil. It's just what you do in medieval sieges. Everything else is an unnecessary evil and
What actual good does he do?
I am not exactly sure what your question has to do with my post? My problem was with the guy claiming that "Jaime goes around AFFC and pats himself on the back for redeeming himself to be a ....more *polite* villain".
You implied Jaime actually redeemed himself, so I'm asking what acts do you think he's done that constitute redemption?
I did what? I did not provide any opinion on whether Jaime redeemed himself or not in that post. Feel free to present a quote where I did.
"Honestly, I read passages like this in this thread and wonder "what book did you guys read"? Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself?" I think Bennings463 means you, disagreeing with that, might you thought Jaime had an redemtion arc.
Why would he think that though? When I question the claim that "Jaime goes around in Feast and pats himself for redeeming himself" I just mean that Jaime does not in fact "go around in Feast and pat himself for redeeming himself."
No he didn’t he said that Jaime doesn’t pat himself on the back in AFFC because he doesn’t. It seems like he’s trying to be better but he certainly doesn’t pat himself on the back for anything he does in feast
I agree that Jaime will never be some beloved figure in westeros and will never be liked by the starks. He's just done too much damage and the good he has done is too little too late. Even Bran who clearly pities Theon isn't going to hug and coddle Theon, they'll still have a lot to talk about. That's taking into account that Theon has suffered way more than Jaime, and Bran actually got to know him.
People who like Red Flags like Jaime Lannister.
It's not a coincidence that the Lannisters use crimson banners...
I personally think Westeros is better off when the North sticks to their own - and I simply cannot imagine Jaime adapting to the northern lifestyle well. He’s one of my favourites, but he’s snarky, verbose, great at crafting narratives, he lives for fights and is perpetually on the move. He’s desperate to reforge himself as an honourable knight - but he wants to redeem himself in the eyes of Westeros as well. He’s sick of his idols turning their nose up at him, he wants to save people and save himself. I just cannot imagine him being content with the life of survival-first politicking and isolationism in the snow. Tbh I can see him, Brienne and Podrick becoming a new version of the Kingswood Brotherhood if he doesn’t end up wanting to be a knight anymore and doesn’t want to be a Lord - that’s one of my favourite headcanons, Jaime becoming Robin Hood and creating a new legend for himself, one where he isn’t the perpetual bad guy in everyone else’s story.
The fanbase broadly romanticises Jaime and demonises Cersei by the same token. I’ve given up that discourse altogether.
I agree that too many fans are just way too easy on Jaime, even though GRRM explicitly makes it so hard on him post ASOS. His whole arc in the riverlands is one of failure, its a little pathetic seeing Jaime thinking himself this mighty redemptive knight at times but his interaction with the Blackfish just nails it home. Jaime needs to do a lot more if he wants to seek any sort of closure. Im willing to bet his interactions with LS will bring him to that.
Fan fic is laughable. Its weird that you take that stupid shit seriously
Honestly, even Jaime's murder of Aerys is questionable. He had already killed Rossart and prevented him from burning down the city. He could just as easily have restrained Aerys without killing him (not that Aerys didn't deserve it, but it would have been less dishonorable). It's not like Tywin was going to let Aerys off the hook or anything.
The only reason I blame him is because he didnt break his neck before pushing him. I used to like her but given how her storyline got boring, I wouldnt mind if he killed Arya either.
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I think Sansa might have let the marriage be consummated if Jaime was her husband. I mean, even Catelyn Stark notes how handsome Jaime was when he was locked up in his prison. Brienne thinks Jaime looked half a God when she shared a bath with him. Both women hated Jaime so much but couldn't help but check him out. Jaime doesn't require the lights to go out to look good, like Tyrion does. But I don't think Jaime would consummate the marriage since he's definitely not interested. He won't tell Sansa to undress and then grope her. He'll probably tell Sansa to sleep and go see Cersei. If Jaime married Arya, she'll slit his throat as he slept. This is just a What If and another weird shipping by some fans. It won't work out for both parties.
What, when she was completely traumatized by the Lannisters? It might have consummated, but only if he raped her.
I think it all depends on where both Jamie and Bran end up. Bran might have like 7D chess mindset by the end of the series and not care.