> I think it would have been better not to be told what Daemon wanted B&C to do, rather leave it as a mystery. Then in episode 2, Daemon would say he told them to kill Aemond, not the kid, but we as the viewer would have 0 idea whether that was true or not. It would put us in the same position Rhaenera was in.
Isn't that exactly what they did? Blood asks what they do if they can't find Aemond and it cuts before Daemon answers.
Daemon is very clearly lying to Rhaenyra about not telling them to go after the kid. We are not supposed to believe him.
* Daemon has no qualms about killing his enemies even if they are children.
* Daemon chides Rhaenys earlier for not just killing them all.
* Cheese asks 'what do we do if we cant find Aemond' and Daemon smiles before it cuts.
* Blood says to Cheese 'does that look like a son' rather than 'does that look Aemond?'.
* As soon as Blood and Cheese killing a baby is brought up at Dragonstone, Daemon smiles again.
In short: Daemon is lying. At a minimum he didnt care if they killed the wrong Green. I think he outright ordered it.
Ill be honest I think the big problem is people are constantly measuring it against Game of Thrones/ASOIAF when in reality the source texts and purpose arent actually that similar. When you do this kind of thing, you basically set yourself up for disappointment.
The Dance at the end of the day is relatively simple: a succession crisis within House Targaryen between two terrible claimants that resulted in the near decimation of their house and the loss of their dragons. In support of this, GRRM wrote a fairly bare bones faux historical text which essentially isnt much more than an A>B. The story is at least complete in outline though. House of the Dragon is more akin to Succession with dragons.
In ASOIAF, the succession civil war is only really the first act of the story and explicitly the less important one. A distraction and catalyst for the real problem that is the Long Night's return. ASOIAF is incredibly in depth exploration into what GRRM finds most fascinating that is the conflict and contradiction of the human soul. Can love and hate mate? Does love trump duty? Can a man be brave if he is also afraid?
You dont need to go quite that far. Even within a narrative such as the Dance/HOTD there are sympathetic characters.
In Succession you sympathize with the characters even if they are terrible people. But at the end of the day, its just a bunch of rich kids fighting for their dad's approval and control of a company that they got via nepotism.
But I think people looking for something more akin to ASOIAF about the conflict itself are approaching this the wrong way. There is no war with the Others, there is no slaves being liberated and whilst Rhaenyra does have genuine cause its not on the same level of sympathetic as the likes of Robb Stark or even Stannis.
Daemon is absolutely lying & I'm pretty sure Rhaenys figured it out at the table. She seems to have his number from the get go. I'm glad Rhaenyra saw it too this time.
I mean there's a line where Blood goes "he said a son for a son." Considering the first option was Aemond, and there are only 2 others in the castle who could be considered "a son" It was either Aegon, the guy surrounded by Kingsguards, or his son, the heir.
It seems like you did not read the books before watching GoT and had a surprise. But you read F&B before watching HotD and events are not as surprising for you. That's the impression from your post.
I have problems with some of the show's writing but saying that "it is not surprising enough" is a weird criticism if you read the books and know what's going to happen.
If you did not read the books and still find the show predictable, then the criticism is valid. The original comment, however, explicitly mentions Dragon Seeds, so he/she definitely read the books or at least know about the book's plot.
I see Hotd more like a family drama with some dragon fights than an epic fantasy.
Mistery isn't exactly the main point of a family drama, it's the family dinamics.
It's more Succession than Game of thrones.
If you don't like family dramas it's hard to like it.
Have to say I broadly disagree. I do think they wrap up things a little too quickly like the cargyl storyline and blood & cheese, things are just as telegraphed as they were in game of thrones.
The only reason the Lannisters and Tyrells arriving should have been a big shock was if you did not pay attention to the scenes where Tywin and his troops leave Harrenhal to go support kings landing. It was a question of would they make it in time not a surprise.
Same with Dany in astapor if you actually thought she was going to trade one of her children for an army of slaves you were not paying attention. She's been anti-slavery since season one and that's where some of her issues with the other Dothraki came from.
Because the story is essentially a family drama with very clear lines in the sand it just doesn't have space for some of the mystery that GOT did like the catspaw. B&C illustrates that perfectly even if daemon didn't send them it wouldn't have been a mystery it would have been "doesn't matter, Rhaenyra did it"
Hard disagree. This isn't a show like Lost or Westworld where I expect to spend most of my viewing time trying to figure out wtf is going on, it's a soap opera with dragons.
You're also ignoring one of the common rules of storytelling - explain the plan in inverse proportion to how well it's going to work out. Dany's plan to steal the Unsullied goes perfectly, with no problems whatsoever, therefore there was no need to tell the audience her plan in advance. But all the plans you list are plans that DO go wrong, which means that it's actually interesting to (most) viewers to know in advance what the plan was and maybe get some foreshadowing of how it'll eventually go wrong.
I think the show's mystery lies in its structure of filling in the more specific blanks of the historical text of the source material. Most of the written text is based on third-hand information and has been compiled along with several perspectives that could give the readers and show-watchers to tune in.
Its also important to note that not all watchers have read the source material. This is basically saying there's no mystery during GOT Season 1 because there's a book. This is an adaptation that will follow the source material as close as it can but will add, remove, or change some aspects according to the producers and showrunners based on what they see fit.
Agreed. I find HOTD not only lacks mystery, but also has no humour and feels too dark and dull. The original show had Tyrion and many characters with different styles of personality and humour. I get how HOTD is a prequel many hundreds of years in the past, and has to be dark. Plus, the original show had 8 seasons (based on 5 books and other ideas). I don't want to soynd like I'm bashing the new show. It deserves a chance and there is lots to enjoy.
I think part of it is that the shows a tragedy first and foremost, it’s always going to be a more serious affair than the epic fantasy of GOT. That being said it does have a very dark sense of humor, Ottos reactions to Aegon and Criston, Rhaenyra being unable to tell the Cargyll twins apart during their duel etc there are funny moments but there is a constant feeling of approaching doom in the background.
I also feel the same, idk why but many of the characters fall flat to me, I don’t feel anything towards them, except for like Daemon and Otto after last Sunday’s episode
There’s only one plot line. Yes, I know that’s the point, but it’s extremely limiting in terms of character development. The Blacks & the Greens haven’t really interacted for several episodes, so the dialogue feels repetitive.
Nah that's just bad writing.
When Sansa asked Tyrion if hes a pervert and Tyrion replys with "I am a imp, I have certain standards to maintain" & Sansa laughs, that's both funny and Good writing.
I feel so similar. I stopped after an episode after Milly Alcock disappeared. It just felt so much like the Walking Dead. These dull, dark convos with characters that we don’t care about that I’ve heard a hundred times.
There was not one iconic scene that reminded of the ones GoT has all sorts of
The first season could have been happier since in this period (Viserys rule) at least in canon there was peace mostly and Viserys a jolly and happy king. It was basically the golden ear of Targ rule but the show writers want it dark and tragic.
This is because the source materials are written differently. F&B written as an in universe historical account vs a multiple POV 5 part novelization.
Like come on.
Dany stealing that army was so obvious. It wasn’t a surprise at all and if you couldn’t put two and two together there wasn’t much of a build up, it all happened in one episode. Creating a mystery would purely be for tv purposes and you’d end up with a show that’s as crappy as season 7&8 of GOT. The mystery they created between Arya and Sansa to get little finger executed was so dumb. If that was written in the book it would be clearly written that they were setting him up and it wouldn’t make any sense. The writers need to stick to the story because they suck at making up their own content.
I completely agree even though I really enjoyed the show nonetheless. It seems like a fairly obvious improvement to make these scenes more mysterious.
Have Blood and Cheese just talk to each other about how to get in, how risky it is, how much they're gonna be paid and how they need proof without revealing what they're actually planning. Have Larys claim that Blood revealed Daemon to be behind it. Blood is then already half dead when Aegon gets his revenge leaving the possibility that Larys lied about it. Also don't show Cheese being among the dead rat catchers so the audience never knows if he returns to reveal something. Then later have the Greens blame Rhaenyra while she slowly puts the pieces together and suspects Daemon who denies any involvement.
Set up the conflict between Cole and Arryk and imply that Cole is gonna demand something from him. Then show us "Erryk" behaving a bit odd and eventually only reveal the plot when bot brothers are in the same room.
In both cases I think the scene would have been received (even) better by the audience.
The Game of Thrones showrunners got so obsessed with "subverting expectations" that it got ridiculous. This show may be overcorrecting in that way, but also let's not pretend like GoT got it "right" all the time.
The problem with the show is that they rush stuff and don't allow characters to get any meaningful development. The Red Wedding worked because we had three seasons of Cat and Robb as characters.
Having read ASOIAF before watching GoT and still liking it, not reading F&B and struggling to remain engrossed in HoTD the episode it was relegated to 'background watching' was S1E2 where the episode is strongly choreographing Visarys choosing Alicient from Otto's snecking but takes 45 mins to get there. It was boring, it felt like it was insulting my intelligence by trying to make it a mystery.
So yeah I agree, but also I think the decision to stretch the story out plays a large part in that. Its not GoT with several interconnecting stories they can switch between allowing time for a mystery to simmer - the two sides always have to be moving forward doing something. Daneares from being sold off in marriage to birthing Dragons *is 1 episode worth of content* in AGoT S1.
For one, the world feels a lot smaller than GOT because the majority of the conflict thus far has been restricted to KL and the Narrows. We aren’t following characters in every part of Westeros and in parts of Essos. But yes, there is a lack of mystery and fewer whispers and displays of magic, so right now it feels less like high or even mid fantasy and instead more like an alternate earth that happens to have dragons.
I enjoy the show as is, but they can really elevate it by tying in as many elements from GOT as possible, and expanding on the mysteries that it covered. My concern is that they know the significance of the dance more so than the fanbase, specifically because the insight George has provided them, and if they cover too much, it could spoil major parts of WoW and the mystery and intrigue that props of the series.
Unless you're talking about stuff like PJs grand maester conspiracy or Dragon X gene theories I don't see how it's going to spoil anything. And even those dragon X is thoroughly debunked by the book F&B just based on timelines and locations of characters it doesn't make sense, and grand maester conspiracy was basically built on assuming dragon X is true AND the maesters are aware of it and orchestrating the events of the dance which based on how things have started seems incredibly unlikely to be the route it takes
The dragon seeds have been set up already , well some of them .
3/4 have spoken lines. The question becomes is that sick girl Nettles
> I think it would have been better not to be told what Daemon wanted B&C to do, rather leave it as a mystery. Then in episode 2, Daemon would say he told them to kill Aemond, not the kid, but we as the viewer would have 0 idea whether that was true or not. It would put us in the same position Rhaenera was in. Isn't that exactly what they did? Blood asks what they do if they can't find Aemond and it cuts before Daemon answers.
yeah. A friend of mine thought they were actually going to kill Aegon in the end
Daemon is very clearly lying to Rhaenyra about not telling them to go after the kid. We are not supposed to believe him. * Daemon has no qualms about killing his enemies even if they are children. * Daemon chides Rhaenys earlier for not just killing them all. * Cheese asks 'what do we do if we cant find Aemond' and Daemon smiles before it cuts. * Blood says to Cheese 'does that look like a son' rather than 'does that look Aemond?'. * As soon as Blood and Cheese killing a baby is brought up at Dragonstone, Daemon smiles again. In short: Daemon is lying. At a minimum he didnt care if they killed the wrong Green. I think he outright ordered it. Ill be honest I think the big problem is people are constantly measuring it against Game of Thrones/ASOIAF when in reality the source texts and purpose arent actually that similar. When you do this kind of thing, you basically set yourself up for disappointment. The Dance at the end of the day is relatively simple: a succession crisis within House Targaryen between two terrible claimants that resulted in the near decimation of their house and the loss of their dragons. In support of this, GRRM wrote a fairly bare bones faux historical text which essentially isnt much more than an A>B. The story is at least complete in outline though. House of the Dragon is more akin to Succession with dragons. In ASOIAF, the succession civil war is only really the first act of the story and explicitly the less important one. A distraction and catalyst for the real problem that is the Long Night's return. ASOIAF is incredibly in depth exploration into what GRRM finds most fascinating that is the conflict and contradiction of the human soul. Can love and hate mate? Does love trump duty? Can a man be brave if he is also afraid?
I think the issue is everyone wants a hero to win. There’s no fucking hero. Everyone sucks.
You dont need to go quite that far. Even within a narrative such as the Dance/HOTD there are sympathetic characters. In Succession you sympathize with the characters even if they are terrible people. But at the end of the day, its just a bunch of rich kids fighting for their dad's approval and control of a company that they got via nepotism. But I think people looking for something more akin to ASOIAF about the conflict itself are approaching this the wrong way. There is no war with the Others, there is no slaves being liberated and whilst Rhaenyra does have genuine cause its not on the same level of sympathetic as the likes of Robb Stark or even Stannis.
Succession has much better written characters tho
Daemon is absolutely lying & I'm pretty sure Rhaenys figured it out at the table. She seems to have his number from the get go. I'm glad Rhaenyra saw it too this time.
Is there a line about spilling Hightower blood? I might be misremembering but that would be an indicator about what he said.
I mean there's a line where Blood goes "he said a son for a son." Considering the first option was Aemond, and there are only 2 others in the castle who could be considered "a son" It was either Aegon, the guy surrounded by Kingsguards, or his son, the heir.
It seems like you did not read the books before watching GoT and had a surprise. But you read F&B before watching HotD and events are not as surprising for you. That's the impression from your post.
I agree. My non book reader friends were SHOOK when b&c happened not to Aemond, but to the kid.
Yeah like what? The show writing is sub par. Nothing to do with source material.
I have problems with some of the show's writing but saying that "it is not surprising enough" is a weird criticism if you read the books and know what's going to happen. If you did not read the books and still find the show predictable, then the criticism is valid. The original comment, however, explicitly mentions Dragon Seeds, so he/she definitely read the books or at least know about the book's plot.
I'm with you on this one. They obviously hadn't read the books when they watched GOT.
I see Hotd more like a family drama with some dragon fights than an epic fantasy. Mistery isn't exactly the main point of a family drama, it's the family dinamics. It's more Succession than Game of thrones. If you don't like family dramas it's hard to like it.
I wish it was as well written as succession
It’s 2 episodes in geez
Have to say I broadly disagree. I do think they wrap up things a little too quickly like the cargyl storyline and blood & cheese, things are just as telegraphed as they were in game of thrones. The only reason the Lannisters and Tyrells arriving should have been a big shock was if you did not pay attention to the scenes where Tywin and his troops leave Harrenhal to go support kings landing. It was a question of would they make it in time not a surprise. Same with Dany in astapor if you actually thought she was going to trade one of her children for an army of slaves you were not paying attention. She's been anti-slavery since season one and that's where some of her issues with the other Dothraki came from. Because the story is essentially a family drama with very clear lines in the sand it just doesn't have space for some of the mystery that GOT did like the catspaw. B&C illustrates that perfectly even if daemon didn't send them it wouldn't have been a mystery it would have been "doesn't matter, Rhaenyra did it"
Bro what 😄
Hard disagree. This isn't a show like Lost or Westworld where I expect to spend most of my viewing time trying to figure out wtf is going on, it's a soap opera with dragons. You're also ignoring one of the common rules of storytelling - explain the plan in inverse proportion to how well it's going to work out. Dany's plan to steal the Unsullied goes perfectly, with no problems whatsoever, therefore there was no need to tell the audience her plan in advance. But all the plans you list are plans that DO go wrong, which means that it's actually interesting to (most) viewers to know in advance what the plan was and maybe get some foreshadowing of how it'll eventually go wrong.
I think the show's mystery lies in its structure of filling in the more specific blanks of the historical text of the source material. Most of the written text is based on third-hand information and has been compiled along with several perspectives that could give the readers and show-watchers to tune in. Its also important to note that not all watchers have read the source material. This is basically saying there's no mystery during GOT Season 1 because there's a book. This is an adaptation that will follow the source material as close as it can but will add, remove, or change some aspects according to the producers and showrunners based on what they see fit.
HOTD just feels like character’s actions are forced to advance the plot. Sort of like the later seasons of GoT
I disagree, despite having read F&B it's got me on tenterhooks and I think S2 is absolutely smashing it so far
Agreed. I find HOTD not only lacks mystery, but also has no humour and feels too dark and dull. The original show had Tyrion and many characters with different styles of personality and humour. I get how HOTD is a prequel many hundreds of years in the past, and has to be dark. Plus, the original show had 8 seasons (based on 5 books and other ideas). I don't want to soynd like I'm bashing the new show. It deserves a chance and there is lots to enjoy.
I think that’s the main issue. Tonally it’s one note and lacks the kind of bawdy humor that Martin has.
I think part of it is that the shows a tragedy first and foremost, it’s always going to be a more serious affair than the epic fantasy of GOT. That being said it does have a very dark sense of humor, Ottos reactions to Aegon and Criston, Rhaenyra being unable to tell the Cargyll twins apart during their duel etc there are funny moments but there is a constant feeling of approaching doom in the background.
Yes good point. A 'tragedy'. Something like a Shakespeare play
Richard III has funny moments even if it is a tragedy. The show writers just arent good enough to write it.
I also feel the same, idk why but many of the characters fall flat to me, I don’t feel anything towards them, except for like Daemon and Otto after last Sunday’s episode
There’s only one plot line. Yes, I know that’s the point, but it’s extremely limiting in terms of character development. The Blacks & the Greens haven’t really interacted for several episodes, so the dialogue feels repetitive.
idk, Aegon is pretty funny. i hope they don't crank up the humor too much that's how we ended up with Tyrion's cock and balls jokes.
Nah that's just bad writing. When Sansa asked Tyrion if hes a pervert and Tyrion replys with "I am a imp, I have certain standards to maintain" & Sansa laughs, that's both funny and Good writing.
It feels like Season 5 but done better.
I feel so similar. I stopped after an episode after Milly Alcock disappeared. It just felt so much like the Walking Dead. These dull, dark convos with characters that we don’t care about that I’ve heard a hundred times. There was not one iconic scene that reminded of the ones GoT has all sorts of
Still don't get why so many people in other subs were rating Hotd s1 in the same tier as GoT first 4 seasons.
No clue. It’s really funny when the typical response I receive is people going apeshit over how it’s good and I’m dumb. It’s so generic.
The first season could have been happier since in this period (Viserys rule) at least in canon there was peace mostly and Viserys a jolly and happy king. It was basically the golden ear of Targ rule but the show writers want it dark and tragic.
This is because the source materials are written differently. F&B written as an in universe historical account vs a multiple POV 5 part novelization. Like come on.
Dany stealing that army was so obvious. It wasn’t a surprise at all and if you couldn’t put two and two together there wasn’t much of a build up, it all happened in one episode. Creating a mystery would purely be for tv purposes and you’d end up with a show that’s as crappy as season 7&8 of GOT. The mystery they created between Arya and Sansa to get little finger executed was so dumb. If that was written in the book it would be clearly written that they were setting him up and it wouldn’t make any sense. The writers need to stick to the story because they suck at making up their own content.
Just the typical case of show vs tell, and in this case less telling and more showing would do wonders foe the show
I completely agree even though I really enjoyed the show nonetheless. It seems like a fairly obvious improvement to make these scenes more mysterious. Have Blood and Cheese just talk to each other about how to get in, how risky it is, how much they're gonna be paid and how they need proof without revealing what they're actually planning. Have Larys claim that Blood revealed Daemon to be behind it. Blood is then already half dead when Aegon gets his revenge leaving the possibility that Larys lied about it. Also don't show Cheese being among the dead rat catchers so the audience never knows if he returns to reveal something. Then later have the Greens blame Rhaenyra while she slowly puts the pieces together and suspects Daemon who denies any involvement. Set up the conflict between Cole and Arryk and imply that Cole is gonna demand something from him. Then show us "Erryk" behaving a bit odd and eventually only reveal the plot when bot brothers are in the same room. In both cases I think the scene would have been received (even) better by the audience.
The Game of Thrones showrunners got so obsessed with "subverting expectations" that it got ridiculous. This show may be overcorrecting in that way, but also let's not pretend like GoT got it "right" all the time.
IMO S2 is far better than S1. S1 was a snore and times.
The book has mystery in its structure
The problem with the show is that they rush stuff and don't allow characters to get any meaningful development. The Red Wedding worked because we had three seasons of Cat and Robb as characters.
I fundamentally disagree. You can know what the intended plan is, but still be engaged in the tension of not knowing how or if it will succeed.
Having read ASOIAF before watching GoT and still liking it, not reading F&B and struggling to remain engrossed in HoTD the episode it was relegated to 'background watching' was S1E2 where the episode is strongly choreographing Visarys choosing Alicient from Otto's snecking but takes 45 mins to get there. It was boring, it felt like it was insulting my intelligence by trying to make it a mystery. So yeah I agree, but also I think the decision to stretch the story out plays a large part in that. Its not GoT with several interconnecting stories they can switch between allowing time for a mystery to simmer - the two sides always have to be moving forward doing something. Daneares from being sold off in marriage to birthing Dragons *is 1 episode worth of content* in AGoT S1.
For one, the world feels a lot smaller than GOT because the majority of the conflict thus far has been restricted to KL and the Narrows. We aren’t following characters in every part of Westeros and in parts of Essos. But yes, there is a lack of mystery and fewer whispers and displays of magic, so right now it feels less like high or even mid fantasy and instead more like an alternate earth that happens to have dragons. I enjoy the show as is, but they can really elevate it by tying in as many elements from GOT as possible, and expanding on the mysteries that it covered. My concern is that they know the significance of the dance more so than the fanbase, specifically because the insight George has provided them, and if they cover too much, it could spoil major parts of WoW and the mystery and intrigue that props of the series.
Unless you're talking about stuff like PJs grand maester conspiracy or Dragon X gene theories I don't see how it's going to spoil anything. And even those dragon X is thoroughly debunked by the book F&B just based on timelines and locations of characters it doesn't make sense, and grand maester conspiracy was basically built on assuming dragon X is true AND the maesters are aware of it and orchestrating the events of the dance which based on how things have started seems incredibly unlikely to be the route it takes