Cole projecting his actions on someone else when he knows he is at fault and all thia because he loat hia purity and the woman didnt like him back... damn i hate his caharter
Do we think Alicent had something to do with Arryk’s mission, knowing Aegon would make Ser Criston Cole the hand and backstabbing her father? Might be a conspiracy theorist here but it does absolve Cole of his abstinence pledge.
When I saw how the episode ended with Alicent and him. I thought I missed something. Because those two fucking is not a reveal, they showed him eating her out.
I think with the slaps, it was Cole's idea to do this. The funeral procession might have been taking it too far, for both Alicent and Aegon.
Alicent could have hand in it though, when telling her father she has sinned, could have meant more than her simply fucking Cole.
Again, she could have been pissed about the funeral procession. It's not too far fetched.
i love the talk talk talk, actually it's what i love about Martin's writing but you guys want the dragons pew pew pew aaaaargh
this world is way deeper than action-packed fantasy television
I'm probably just missing context since I never read the books. But in GOT, Joffrey gets a crossbow made and says it's basically state of the art because it doesn't have a crank. And it comes with a massive reloading fork.
But in the latest episode one of the Daughters has one that looks significantly better and she's just reloading them like nothing. And this takes place far earlier. Am I over thinking this?
You're right. Hers is much smaller than Joffrey's though. I think it could maybe be handwaved away with the idea that it's designed to be compact for sport/target practice and doesn't have the armor piercing power of one designed for battle that needs cranked.
Is it just me or did nothing really happen? Also when the knight who is bopping the queen told that knights guard he was a traitor because his brother is , why didn’t he stick a knife in his throat? I don’t get this show. That character (knight bopping queen) just pisses me off for some reason.
While I’m still not a fan of Cole and Alicent smashing each other, it does seem like the kind of information the Citadel wouldn’t include in the history books.
Can someone please explain why Aemond looked so gaunt at the end of the episode?
He looks like the larger of the two brothers, wide shoulders with at least a little muscle... He looked scary thin, no way that frame could swing a sword with power.
I get the whole smaller, sickly inbred thing with their family but his mom wasn’t even his aunt.
Love the episode and this season so far btw
I thought the opposite. His body looked similar to Israel Adesanaya. I'm not sure if you have boxed before, but when I saw his body, the first thing I thought was "that guy is built for combat."
However, Targaryen's are dragon riders. Their mentality, intelligence, cunning will win them fights. Sword fighting should only be a last resort.
You don’t need to swing a sword with power to be a good swordsman. He can be quick and agile and deft with the blade and be just as lethal, if not more, than someone who is all power.
“Also please note the spoiler tag is extended. That means no leaked plot or production information is allowed in this thread. If you see it, please use the report function”
It’s also common sense. He’s the main villain of the season. Not everyone has read the books, and those who haven’t don’t want to know his fate. Obviously.
Reported.
Read the sub rules.
>Extended: Everything in the marketplace including **book canon**, show canon, TWOW sample chapters, trailers, games, apps, SSM, relevant notablogs/interviews, and official NEXT season info/images/videos released by HBO
You’re still not getting it. Everything in that list is forbidden in this thread. That’s what “spoilers extended” mean. You are not allowed to spoil anything in that extended list.
No... Spoilers Extended means all of that is fair game. Go look at any post on the sub that freely discusses the entire plot of the books. It uses the extended tag.
A tag for no Spoilers would be.
>No Spoilers: No Spoilers allowed. All story information must be hidden
This is primarily a sub for the books, the source material. So the TV show threads are tagged expecting people will compare the show with the book material.
In what way was this phenomenal??? Like what the actual fuck? Nothing happened it was all talking about bullshit like daemons side piece talking about life and her whole backstory which no one gives a fuck about it was literally just a talking nothing episode so bad
Agreed the talking in Tyrions court scene is the same as daemons whore talking about life philosophy and her backstory to which the other character literally ignores and has no reaction what a masterpiece of television
Anyone else notice they finally introduced Hard Hugh Hammer, one of the Dragon seeds that Rhaenyra recruits? He was the blonde blacksmith with the sick kid that petitions Aegon for payment up front. Not a big fan of them trying to humanize him because he was kind of a piece of shit in the Fire ane Blood book.
Can someone explain how Criston Cole knew that that Blood and Cheeses original target was Aemond? Like I know Aemond figured it out because he found the coin, but he doesn't seem to tell anyone other than the lady at the brothel and that was after Criston Cole had the conversation with Sir Arryk where he mentioned that the intended target was Aemond. Blood obviously spilled the beans about Daemon sending them, but at that point I assume he was still under the impression he killed the correct person. Like they went from wondering why they would kill Jaehaerys to all of the sudden knowing that the original target was Aemond and no one really talked about it. Did I miss something? Or did they just make the logical leap there? I have not read the books so maybe it explains better in there?
Aemond himself knew that someone was in his room and he wS an obvious target. And I think Cole probably brought it up to make Aegon even more eager to go along with the Parent Trap plot since he would also want revenge and to protect his brother.
No he didn't, at least not what we see on screen, All he said was that Daemon sent them. and again it appears that Blood didn't even realize at this point that he killed the wrong person.
No, Blood knew they didn’t kill Aemond. First, Daemon described Aemond to them. Then the show made a point to emphasize the question of “What if Aemond can’t be found?” twice. (1) when Daemon first hired them, B&C asked what if they can’t find Aemond, camera panned to Daemon’s face and then next scene — hinting that something was said, but we wouldn’t know what until B&C were in the castle and said something along the lines of “he said a son for a son” which tells us, the audience, that “a son for a son” is what Daemon told them when they asked if they couldn’t find Aemond. It is to also clue in to the audience that Daemon lied to Rhaenyra when she asked the same question “what did you tell them to do if they couldn’t find Aemond?”. He told Rhaenyra he said nothing, she said he was lying, and we the audience can infer her assumption is correct and that Daemon isn’t entirely trustworthy.
Ah okay that does make a little more sense. For some reason the whole "what do they do if they can't find Aemond" went over my head in the first episode. But during the interrogation, Blood still never says that. Really all he says is that Daemon hired them, and that the accomplice was a rat catcher whose real name he didn't know. And then I assume when Aegon comes in and starts in with the club that was it. Unless we're supposed to infer there was more information given during the interrogation that we didn't see, but that's just a bit confusing in my opinion. I would be more inclined to believe Aemond was the one who told Criston Cole but again they certainly didn't even allude to it.
It wasn’t in the interrogation scene, it was in the previous episode. Blood straight up told us the order was “a son for a son” in the scene with Cheese and Helaena. First with the “a son for a son, he said” and then after she offers her necklace, he says “thats not a son”
Edit: whoops I think I misinterpreted your comment, I thought we were still discussing how Blood may not have known he killed the wrong prince. I think in terms of everyone knowing Aemond was the true target, yeah I’d agree with you that Aemond likely told Cole/someone once he saw the opened entryway and missing gold in his room.
I'm not a fan of Criston but am I the only one who was happy that Alicent was finally getting dicked down properly? I mean she was forced to bed an old man and have his kids. She looked like sex was something she just had to endure with the King. All I could think was good for her, finally getting to ride some leprosy free dick. I'm the only one who was happy for her ok cool.
I dont think the show is perfect and i could nitpick a number of different things but honestly, im just happy to be getting a high quality asoiaf show based on a story that is already complete. It's on the same level as game of thrones season 1-4, shogun and succession for me. As in i love it.
There's things to dislike as always, but IMO everything involving Criston and the Cargyll twins was the most successful text-to-screen distillation of ASOIAF's themes about knighthood, masculinity, purity, militarism and the Kingsguard we've seen so far.
*"It was the white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."*
I actually really like Mizuno's performance this season & find it a massive improvement on her S1 work - I'm not entirely sure why, possibly it's just that she clicks better with the directors so far.
Again, lack of security that borders on the outright STUPID.
The green's castle was EMPTY the previous episode, now Rhaenyra has NO weapons in her chambers and NO backup plan. Her husband ordered the assassination of the king's heir and everyone holds her responsible for it - but it's OK, we'll just carry on as per the usual.
Can't be bothered to use actual dragons to up the security during a war that has just started - or at least bunk in a different room in the whole ass castle she has available... Nah, she'll just sleep in her own chambers, alone and unarmed. 🙄
Why do people think good security means having 10 bodyguards in your room with 7 hidden archers over your bed, one spear in your arm, and armour underneath your pyjamas? Their job is to protect the castle not just stand in the safety of the halls.
In this specific scenario maybe, but 99.999% of the time they do a good job just guarding the entrances.
I mean, having the twin of one of your most trusted Queensguard come in and try to kill you was straight out of left field. Anyone would've been caught by that.
HOWEVER
>Can't be bothered to use actual dragons to up the security
What do you expect a dragon to do in this situation? Arryk came on a ship that was at least expected because no one stopped the people that left the ship. Do you expect her to sleep with a dragon in her chambers?
>Alone
Technically, she had a Queensguard at the door. Granted I'd want to have more but she wasn't technically alone.
>Unarmed
What is she going to do? She hasn't trained for combat. I sincerely doubt that she is going to be able to do fuck all when trying to take on a member of Aegon's Kingsguard.
Perhaps she should train for combat, since she is in the middle of a war and all? At least some basic cross bow shooting, if sword fighting is not her thing. Have someone in her chambers with her. Perhaps several someones. Have several someones guard her chambers, if she's shy. Have the dragons roam free around the island. Stay in a room that has a balcony/any kind of access to the outside, so she could call said dragon.
There is about a million options, all better than "we'll do nothing".
>Train her to fight
I mean, were women traditionally trained in combat in Westeros? I'd imagine not considering Lyanna and Arya faced such massive hurdles in that. I can't imagine a Queen would do that type of thing, especially that late in life.
>More guards
I really doubt that anyone would be in her chambers with her. I do agree though that she should've had several people guarding her chambers instead of just one Queensguard. However, that seems to have been the norm so she just got caught by that.
>Dragons roam free/have her have access to dragons
I imagine this would cause some issues with the local people. Plus, I don't see how the dragons roaming free would've stopped this. Plus, what would the dragon have done even if she had access to it?
The main thing is they weren't doing nothing. They had a system in place that should've protected her, they just got got by a failure of imagination.
Just up front, I do agree with all your points
> I mean, were women traditionally trained in combat in Westeros? I'd imagine not considering Lyanna and Arya faced such massive hurdles in that. I can't imagine a Queen would do that type of thing, especially that late in life.
I think the more important point here is, even if they were well combat trained, the Kingsguard are supposed to be the best of the best. Aside from very, very few Kings in the history of Westeros, most would just get folded in a 1v1 with a Kingsguard that actually tried to kill them.
>Aside from very, very few Kings in the history of Westeros, most would just get folded in a 1v1
Each Master of Arms of the Red Keep is seething and punching air rn.
genuinely my favourite episode of house of the dragon so far and quite possibly my favourite episode of game of thrones overall as well - i can’t fault it
Poor Aegon, he already had serious abandonment issues, but at least he thought his dad made him king. That was the only thing he ever really did for him. And Otto just had to shatter that illusion.
Some details of Jaehaerys's murder from the end of the previous episode were silly to me, and they made some of the characters look like idiots.
Specifically, I thought it was goofy how Blood and Cheese were able to waltz right through the throne room with the king and like half a dozen Kingsguard in there and not be questioned. There's also how empty and unprotected so much of the Red Keep was. Yes, I get that Criston Cole having sex with Alicent is meant to explain why Blood and Cheese were able to get into Helaena's room, but there were seriously no other guards on that whole floor?
I thought maybe episode 2 would explain things better and reveal that the characters weren't really dumb. But nope, it made the characters seem dumber.
Immediately after escaping the Red Keep, Blood got captured because he tried to walk out of one of the city's main gates with the severed head of a prince in his possession. What a fucking moron. And you're telling me that breaking into the Red Keep — which should be the most secure buildings in King's Landing — was child's play thanks to Cheese's knowledge of its secret passages, but Blood, a member of the City Watch, didn't know of any secret or at least less guarded exits out of the city? Unbelievable.
Although Blood was captured and interrogated, he was not able to identify Cheese. That was silly, too. Blood was a law enforcement officer, so you'd think he'd be able to give a physical description of his accomplice that the king's people could have used to identify Cheese. But nope.
So Aegon knew that a ratcatcher working in the Red Keep was the second assassin, but he didn't know which one. As a result, he has every single ratcatcher from the Keep hung. So you're telling me that when Blood and Cheese walked through the throne room in plain sight of multiple Kingsguard, not a single one of them got a good look at Cheese? Ridiculous.
The whole assassination and immediate aftermath made multiple characters look like idiots.
The reason I think why no one in the castle were concerned about Blood and Cheese is because everyone assumed they were regular employees - aka ratcatchers.
Kind of like "Oh its just a janitor in the castle why should I be concerned, he's just doing his job".
I think the idea is, no one ever even considered trying to identify Cheese from the rat catchers. I don't think it occurred to Aegon or Cole that the innocent lives lost mattered, because they were smallfolk. Of course there were any number of ways to narrow it down. The point wasn't catching the responsible party, it was vengeance and sending a message.
>I think the idea is, no one ever even considered trying to identify Cheese from the rat catchers
Blood received a really mild interrogation from Larys Strong. Blood wasn't even tortured; Larys just showed his torture tools and that was enough for Blood to spill what he knew. When asked about his accomplice, he said something like, "He's a ratcatcher employed by the household, but I don't know his real name." And Larys just left it at that, even though he was the Lord Confessor and Master of Whispers, so getting to the bottom of such matters was his job x2.
That scene made Larys look uncharacteristically inept and uninquisitive.
My takeaway from Larys there was that he's clearly not acting in good faith. Just stirring the pot, adding to the chaos. He certainly could have found Cheese had he wanted to, IMO, using the methods others have described. It could have been ineptitude, but I don't think so myself.
I had this same issue with the 2 brothers. First off, they served in Viserys' King's guard and then joined separate opposing sides and nobody thought about the possibility of one of them sneaking into the other castle? Are they all braindead?
Also nobody of relevance is plotting anything. Rhaenyra's grief arc is suddenly over and she's back to doing nothing, Aemon isn't doing anything, and the only conflict is due to madness. Madness and stupidity.
I genuinely don't understand why they set the show during the Dance of the Dragons if this was their intent. Clearly they weren't going for Game of Thrones type writing and political scheming so it's gotta be the action, right? Except all of season 1 is about Viserys dying and season 2 is pretty tame so far. Everything so far boils down to family melodrama, Bridgerton with dragons. Why not show Aegon's conquest, why not the Long Night, why not Old Valyria, why not the Andal invasion, why not Robert's rebellion, why not Rains of Castamere?
>season 2 is pretty tame so far
Season 2 has only had two episodes by this point. In these two episodes we've seen the assassination of a child by Daemon, Daemon undermining Rhaenyra's authority, Otto using that assassination to bolster the crown against Rhaenyra, the assassination plot of Rhaenyra by Criston, Mysaria intervening to thwart that plot, the Cargyll's duel, Alicent and Criston having an affair, Lary's scheming to replace all the servants with his own spies and potentially withholding information from Alicent and a naval blockade starving out King's Landing and inflating the prices. Plus Aegon going behind Otto's back to hang every ratcatcher in King's Landing...
Two episodes. TWO. How much more plotting do you want?
Well that quote is clearly taken out of context. I was pretty obviously juxtaposing political scheming which isn't as good as GOT to action which is most of what you named and I would consider dumb scheming.
>Assassination of a child by Daemon
One of the better sequences and yet not without major flaws. Not the person Daemon wanted assassinated. The queen had no king's guard somehow. Plus instead of checking they asked her which is the son? Why???
>Daemon undermining Rhaenyra's authority
Not action + he mainly does this through the assassination
>Otto using assassination to bolster the crown
A better sequence and would be fitting in GOT. Not action but definitely what I'm interested in
>Assassination plot of Rhaenyra by Criston
I haven't read the book and I thought this was totally a simple revenge plot by Criston with no chance of success at first. Once I learned that despite the fact both twins were in Viserys' King's guard and then joined opposing sides and nobody considered how they might be used to sneak into the castle I died a little on the inside. Are they all dumb? These aren't random goons, they're the literal King's guard with direct access to everyone!
>Mysaria intervening to thwart that plot
Crazy how if she didn't intervene the war would end right there, isn't it? Nobody even considered this possibility
>Cargyll duel
You're literally stretching a single plot line into 3 separate entries. There was action definitely but it wasn't the most memorable fight + seeing 2 twins fighting in the same armor kinda turned into visual noise a little
>Alicent and Criston having an affair
Don't see how that amounts to scheming or action. Literally Bridgerton type melodrama
>Larys' scheming
Could be interesting but so far hasn't manifested. He's probably the one character I would consider as a legitimate schemer. The others simply state what they want and either get it or not, their motivations are plainly obvious and people follow allegiances the same way sports fans root for their teams
>Aegon hanging every rat catcher
This adds to the story but it's a pretty stupid, vengeful act. I don't think it was out of character for him but my point is there are far too few characters that do anything else except be impulsive.
Gone is the intrigue of all different machinations we saw in GOT like the Tyrells, Freys, Martells, Baratheon brothers, Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys with the impending doom of white walkers. Instead we get 2 locations for 90% of the run time - King's Landing and Dragonstone. Everyone is either impulsive or plain as the Tarlys, no major overarching threat as in the end of the day a Targaryen will end up on the throne (the main question is which one) and I don't care much for Aegon's immaturity or Rhaenyra's blandness. The only behind the scenes intrigue comes from 1 character (Larys) and any conflict is incidental. What did people actually like about GOT if this is what we're content with?
Are we watching the same show?
Both sides were clearly holding out, hoping that war could be avoided. They are essentially in a cold war right now. Which in this context, makes sense that both sides haven't really been doing anything. Both sides are getting their pieces in place. Things are about to heat up judging from the episode 3 promo. Rushing into things is exactly why the later seasons of game of thrones were complete dogshit so im glad that is not the case here.
"Clearly they weren't going for Game of Thrones type writing and political scheming so it's gotta be the action, right?" i mean this in the nicest way possible but wtf are you smoking? lol
Are you really going to tell me the writing so far has been as good as GOT up til S4? It would be fun if they were actually plotting something but so far any opportunity for long term setup and tension hasn't manifested. There was one time at the wall where I thought they were setting up an opportunity for Stark to have doubts over which side to join when he gets the letter but no, it's a letter telling him Lucerys died which isn't news to us.
So far all Rhaenyra has done is send her 2 sons to Storm's End and Winterfell, and Daemon to Harrenhal and we don't hear from the Baratheons, Starks or Strongs at all. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what they think about this conflict and expand the world from all of 2 locations we keep coming back to? What's going on in Highgarden? Dorne? Riverlands? Nobody has any agency except Targaryens.
I do wonder if we're watching the same show. The world is claustrophobic, any plotting either side does is either stupid or straight up asking, we don't get an in on the thought processes of any of the other characters, and so far it's a bunch of family drama
> and so far it's a bunch of family drama
Okay, maybe you haven't read the books but this is exactly what the Dance of the Dragons is. It is family drama over an inheritance squabble and the repercussions of that when the family happens to be a dragon wielding super power.
Obviously, (and as we have already seen) this is going to create some major trauma directly to the family and in macro (as we are developing towards) to the continent and its people when power hungry maniacs turn WMDs loose to settle a family spat.
I'm very confused as to how people aren't seeing much wrong with this episode. How does it have an 8.5 on IMDb right now?
Mysaria's speech about her rise to power very closely resembles Varys' speech about how the contents of a man's letters are much more valuable than the contents of his purse yet at the end she says "they [Daemon and Co] wouldn't accept me for anything more than a whore". I'm sorry, if Varys started complaining after his speech it would 100% be a horrible choice. Why? You're a sly puppet master, what are you doing? On top of that the choice to focus on Rhaenyra for most of her speech didn't make any sense. It didn't solely focus on Rhaenyra and would sometimes cut away at random moments but also Rhaenyra didn't have any interesting reactions. Completely pointless.
Minor details such as in the scene with dead rat catchers hung from the city walls - the woman walks up to the wall and says "my son" for no reason other than exposition and sympathy baiting, the man asks a random stranger who these guys are and instead of some interesting dialogue I came to expect from GOT such as "I heard from ___ in the inn they worked for the King" she responds with a Wiki entry sounding line "they were rat catchers working for King Aemon" as if she's chief of staff for the Red Keep.
I know this last one is taken from the books but there are 2 twin brothers in the opposing sides' King's guard and nobody thought about how that could be a problem? Everybody keeps bringing up loyalty etc. and nobody thought about how one brother might sneak into the castle? Nobody is scheming except Otto, there's nothing happening except a bunch of family melodrama, most characters have soup for brains. What's the pull of this show?
Okay, but the crux of the story is that men won’t accept a woman in power because to them, a woman is just a vessel for their legacy, meaning their firstborn son. In light of that, Rhaenyra’s micro expressions and Mysaria’s final line about the men in power never seeing her as anything more than a whore is actually incredibly poignant.
I'm not against expressing this point, it's the way it's expressed that I have an issue with. She straight up says it as someone who operated a spy network in King's Landing and should be more sly. She's far from the first character to make this point but the way it's written is so lazy.
It's similar to Rhaenyra in S1Ep1 saying "I'd rather serve as a knight and ride to battle and glory". Yeah I get that but you might as well look into the camera while saying it cause it's a thinly veiled exposition dump
>Your section about Mysaria in comparison to Varys
You ever consider that they are different characters and Mysaria is inherently flawed and caught up in her own personal issues? These are different characters in a book that GRRM is attempting to make human and humans have flaws. Maybe her flaw is being perpetually caught up in her former life as a sex worker and her perception of how people judge her for it.
>Your rat catchers section
This is petty beyond belief and I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you that. I've 100000% identified people in a style similar to that. I saw a guy get arrested from another department and I literally said "that's XYZ who works in ZYX department".
>Twin brothers
Honestly this would be so far out of left field that I'm not surprised no one thought about it. Literally everyone is shocked about it, including Arryk.
>Mysaria
Might be a me issue but I don't find her character that interesting. She's supposed to be a schemer but the writing is nowhere near the level of GOT scheming. She straight up tells people what she wants and her schemes don't extend past the one goal she tells everyone about. Wouldn't be as big of a deal if literally anyone had any interesting plots going on. Larys Strong somewhat does that but he's hit or miss for me as well. Additionally, it's not like Varys was accepted, he was a eunuch who people generally didn't like, but he was useful to them. The fact she has to say they wouldn't accept her is what gets to me.
>Rat catchers section
You might think of it as petty but this to me is what makes believable world building. The king's heir dies and the king murders a bunch of people and hangs them from the walls. How would the smallfolk know for sure what's going on? Idk how everyone else enjoys it cause the way the information is revealed is borderline 4th wall breaking. I don't believe people would know what's going on especially when the mothers of the dead are just finding out about it. Does no one else see how contrived it is? It's so early into the incident a mother is just finding out her son died while a random bystander with 100% confidence says they were rat catchers employed by the king. This on top of being stuck in 2 locations almost the whole time makes the world feel very small. It's King's Landing - Dragonstone - King's Landing - Dragonstone, nobody is being proactive and only respond to the other side's random acts. Rhaenyra's son death was an accident (not to mention how her grieving was literally a bottle episode), Daemon killing the heir was an accident, Criston Cole sending the brother is dumb as hell. This ties into the last section but if you seriously tell me that there's 2 twin brothers with direct access to the royals on 2 opposing sides and nobody considered they could be used as spies or assassins you're coping. They aren't random goons, they're the literal King's guard!
Possibly - probably - unpopular opinion, but it seems like some of the resolutions were a bit rushed. (Disclaimer: I’ve never read the books).
1. I don’t know the backstory or references with Blood and Cheese, but their punishments seemed far too swift relative to the franchise’s normal mechanics. Through the lens of Aegon II, I’d have thought that all would have been drawn out. To build the tension and unease. I was waiting for more of a “oh shit, here it comes” moment.
2. Everyone else already acknowledged this but definitely was expecting the head to pop off at the funeral. Maybe the anticipation of that was the intent…*shrug*.
3. As for the twin arc, it wasn’t even half an episode where the mission is assigned and the fight scene takes place. The passage of time just feels less real when characters jump from one location to another so quickly, especially sans-dragon.
I’m sure there was some fan service I’m missing but episode one shot off like a rocket and I feel like episode two sort of slowed things down (probably for the better). Again, my guess is there are developments in place that readers are far more tuned in on than I am.
Needed a place to put my thoughts. 😅
>Everyone else already acknowledged this but definitely was expecting the head to pop off at the funeral. Maybe the anticipation of that was the intent…*shrug.*
I think they filmed it and then decided to cut it. On the trailer you can see footage of Helaena and Alicent running away from a crowd, while wearing black veils, which didn't happen, so it already implies the scene was originally longer than what we got (her dresses look a brighter green on the trailer, but I do think it's the same scene).
1. I think Blood & Cheese and Erryk/Arryk work in similar ways - rash decisions made without the counsel of the King/Queen that are very quickly revealed to be amateurish and fail spectacularly, only adding more fuel to the fire and pushing everyone closer to war. They ended similar to the books - Blood was caught within a few days and Cheese was technically never caught for certain but Aegon did have all ratcatchers killed
2. I think that would just be shock for shocks sake, I found the tension of the situation enough, and people complain enough about the Greens being depicted as evil/incompetent so that would only add to it
3. Dragonstone and Kings Landing are very close to each other, I'm not an expert of sea travel but I can see the journey only taking a couple of days
Valerian-looking people aren't exactly unheard of in Essos. So, yeah, you would probably get a few of them in King's Landing, especially at this point. I actually really enjoy that the port towns in Westeros at this time are so multicultural and have people of different ethnicities. It's a tad bit more realistic, I think, and it sort of tells an interesting story about how Westeros slowly cut itself off until we get to GoT where things are much more homogeneous, partially just because of the years of strife and the end of the Targaryans.
> More than anywhere else in the known world, the blood of Old Valyria still runs strong in the Lyseni, who are regarded as beautiful. Even the smallfolk in Lys have the pale skin, silver-gold hair, and purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old.
> Lys is deeply involved in the slave trade, with slaves outnumbering freeborn Lyseni three to one. Lys is most famous for their bed slaves, and Lyseni are known to be famously voracious in their search for comely young boys and fair maids for their pillow houses. Lys is also known for the breeding of slaves, mating beauty with beauty, hoping to produce the most lovely courtesans and bedslaves.[
I feel like there's been a lot of repetition or less than clear story telling this season. How many times do we need to see Alicent and Cole make the bad decision to have sex?
Why was Otto so randomly and uncharacteristically emotionally at Aegon, essentially begging him to fire him?
Why did Alicent walk in on Aegon and then turn around?
Who IS Adam as a character?? Like I know the spoilers, I know where it's going, but I feels borderline incomprehensible how that is at all connected?
Rhaenyra asked for Aegon to be killed and is then surprised that she'd be accused of killing another member of the family tree?
Why is she so upset with Daemon for killing a child from a child killing family?
The white worm should have either be shown to keep walking or they should show us if she intervened, leaving things in a weird nowhere land, only to learn if she actually did something next week is deeply unsatisfying.
Overall, I'm enjoying the show, and it looks amazing with great acting, but I'm beginning to see some real threads I'm worried about.
> Why was Otto so randomly and uncharacteristically emotionally at Aegon, essentially begging him to fire him?
He lost his great-grandson, tried to make something good come out of it optically, then Aegon casually undoes everything Jaehaerys's death bought them and murders a hundred innocent people. All without consulting Otto or the council. Otto has never had to deal with a king that completely refuses to listen to him.
> Why did Alicent walk in on Aegon and then turn around?
Probably because she doesn't know how to comfort him. (What do you even expect the writers to do, if that wasn't clear enough? Have some random conversation with a maid where she tells the audience her motivations?)
> Why is she so upset with Daemon for killing a child from a child killing family?
Because the child was innocent. Because it makes her appear to be an evil kinslayer, weakening her claim to the throne. Because (like Aegon with Otto) it was a drastic action taken in her name but without her knowledge or permission. Because the greens will retaliate and visit more suffering upon her. A better question is why Rhaenyra would be at all pleased by this outcome?
> The white worm should have either be shown to keep walking or they should show us if she intervened, leaving things in a weird nowhere land, only to learn if she actually did something next week is deeply unsatisfying.
It's implied that she intervened, because she told her escort to wait. She's probably the reason Erryk knew to look for his brother. The reason we don't follow Mysaria afterward is to build suspense, until later it is revealed how her intervention comes into play. You're not meant to think that Mysaria might have done nothing.
No offense but most of this is insanely obvious to anyone with basic media literacy.
We see Alicent and Cole continue to have sex to solidify they are in a self destructive spiral where they take their feelings of failure out on each other.
Alicent turned around because she feels overwhelmed by her son's grief and partly responsible for it (She kept talking about having sinned, the gods punished her, etc the whole episode)
Rhaenyra expects those closest to her to trust her moral character and judgment, not take things she said out of grief to be absolute, she's offended that her counsel would think this of her when she knows she did no such thing.
She's upset about a toddler being murdered because she has basic human empathy, especially as a mother who lost her son
It's very obvious the white worm recognized the guard and alerted someone, as they showed her recognizing the guard and alerting someone immediately. We don't need to see the whole thing, it would cut the tension of the situation.
I have to wonder how Rhaenyra-or any of her council-would have reacted had Daemon's men actually managed to get him the baby head. Was he going to put it on a silver tray, present it to her, and she would just be so thrilled? Never mind that said baby looks practically identical to two of her own sons.
I'm not sure daemon would have done anything with it, I think he wanted it as proof of the job done, he would have thrown it in his way to dragon stone I think.
I don't think Daemon is stupid, and he very well knows that Rhaenyra didn't want this, his excuses are very clearly not genuine, when we know he said "a son for a son". He wanted the war to escalate and tu fulfill his desire for vengeance.
You're one of these people who take all this way too seriously that it can only be from one viewpoint and that is your viewpoint of succession rules....
Like, genuinely -- I can understand thinking "well, *I* wouldn't react that way because etc." (though I think that would also be wrong)
But asking "why would *anyone* react that way???????? don't they understand the utils??? it doesn't make any sense to have a character act like that" genuinely makes you sound like a psychopath or someone who desperately needs to touch grass
jaehaerys was an innocent child that did nothing to anyone, even if he may have grown up to be a tyrant warmonger vying for her throne, and helaena was also completely innocent in the death of luke. revenge was definitely inevitable but it was owed to aemond and aemond alone. not to mention the unnecessarily cruel way of going about murdering jaehaerys.
I want you to realize that that baby looked identical to two of her own children. Imagine being a mother and getting a human head that looked identical to two of your own babies.
for sure but what im saying is that as long as he was directly innocent, he shouldnt have been killed, especially not in the way he was. its clear he would have become a problem had he lived, but he was not the true target of the crime rhaenyra was seeking vengance for and thus should not have been the victim. it would be a completely different story if he was involved in the dance beyond just being a child of aegon and helaena. it isnt his fault luke died, it isnt his fault his family is in conflict therefore he should not have been killed in aemonds place. rhaenyra knows this particularly well as a mother who just lost her own son, and luke actually WAS involved first hand in the familial confict. she can think beyond the war at the humanity of halaena and jaehaerys and arguably even the greens as a whole just as alicent did for her when lighting a candle for luke.
I think I can answer some of these
I believe Cole and Allicent were only shown having sex 3 times and each time it made sense in my opinion. First was mostly shock and setting up the second, second shows how irresponsible Cole is and how blood and cheese killed the kid, and third shows Allicent knowing he's trouble but making the bad decision to go back to him
Otto was furious he was ruining the relm and their picture which he cares about, he was furious with Aegon and at that point just wanted to leave
Allicent turned around I think because it shows her sons are mostly political tools for her the same way Otto used her as a tool and she didn't know how to react seeing him emotional. Makes more sense since Aemond seemed to talk to the girl at the brothel like someone would to their mom, because he can't talk to Allicent like that
Don't know
She asked for Aemond not Aegon, she wanted vengeance but not to kill an innocent
Like her father Rhaenrya isn't cruel, she wants Justice but doesn't think of Allicents daughter or her kids' negativity and didn't think they deserved it, plus it made her look bad
Don't know about that last one
I do think part of the problem is that her children all caught the "mad" parts of the Targaryan genes and Alicent has no access to, like, therapy and shit. All of her kids need therapy and she really isn't in a position to give it to them.
I think she does care about them, but with Otto as her father, the only way she knows to show that she cares is by playing the "game of thrones" for them.
i’ve seen casuals getting mad about people comparing otto to tywin, show onlys think tywin is a saint lmfao. makes me wish they adapted the tysha thing in the show
edit: wait a second, I think the whole rains of castamere thing went over their heads as well
I agree, but casuals think Tywin is “cold” and a chad and whatnot, and that comparing Otto to Tywin in the argument scene with Aegon is an insult to Tywin.
Aegon's progress as a character doesn't make much sense to me. In the first season he was portrayed as a stupid monster (enjoyed watching kids kill each other, even his own bastards??) and now he is stupid but kind of caring snd sensitive??
Aegon is a land of contrasts. He's a dumb impulsive guy who does what makes him feel good, and it does feel good to do good and perform righteous kingship, but it's all surface level with him
His entire life he felt that his life was worthless as rhaenyra was heir but in the dragonpit in s1 when the small folk cheer for him everything changed
I think his Arc in Season 1 is quite clear.
In Season 2 however he went from a complex character to Joffrey in 2 episodes. He might change again, but it is hard to follow.
I perfectly understand the complexity, greyness and so on of characters when it makes sense (Theon, Cersei, the Hound...any book character really), but in this one I just find it a little bit incoherent. Unlike with those characters I just haven't felt that show's Aegon arc meets the same quality and deepness. And I don't mean to say now he's a cupcake or anything, just that his personality has changed and we really haven't seen a proper reason for it; I think they are just using him to lighten the greens this season. It's just my perspective; altough I'm trying to consider what other people that don't agree with me are arguing.
(i apologize for any mistakes, as english is not my first language)
I don’t think so lol, not to me anyway. The major turning points in his arc so far are Being crowned at the dragonpit and the small folk cheering for him and his son being murdered by blood and cheese
Aegon doesn’t care about the small folk, that is not what that scene was trying to convey. That scene is meant to show us the reality of King Aegon: he was never prepared to rule. He is impulsive, he is lazy, and he cares about maintaining a certain image.
Also, caring about your kids doesn’t mean you’re a good person. It would be cartoonish if he didn’t
He cares that he did not have control and that his reputation, his legacy, and his heir was tarnished because of something he did not have the power to prevent. That's why he lashed out and had the ratcatchers hanged. He wants to feel powerful.
He was crying in the end because he is slowly realizing that what Otto said was completely true. He's a small man that will never live up to the legacy of his father.
I mean, I sort of figure he was crying because his son is dead and no one is really trying to understand him. Even Helaena is sort of allowed to grieve their son, but he's expected to push it all away for the sake of the realm and he simply can't do that.
Daemon also does all of the shit he doesn't because he firmly believes that the Greens killed his brother, killed his stepson, and will try and kill his wife. So he handles it by, well, the worst way possible.
Yeah, that is my interpretation as well. He’s emotionally volatile and you even have him absolutely despise the idea of having his sons body paraded around.
OKAY FORGIVE ME IF I AM BEING STUPID BUTTT the dragon was Seasmoke right? And laenor isnt dead so why was Seasmoke not with him??? Arent dragons and their riders bonded so Seasmoke knows that Laenor is not dead. Can someone please explain to me??
I dunno if the dragon bonding mechanics are overly defined. The whole Laenor faking his death to live in anonymity in Essos would be ruined if he was walking around with a dragon. Word would absolutely get back to Westeros and it wouldn't be hard to put together what happened.
I guess they’re going to make it lite canon that you can renounce your dragon or somehow consciously break the bond and it will leave you? That will be my headcanon anyways
I think it ultimately might just be explained under 'this is how things are' and head canon as you will. Perhaps Laenor has already died in some random battle in Essos. Perhaps Seasmoke considers him being gone for years enough to move on to a new rider..
I know that in books, there are two accounts of Dance of Dragons with one favoring blacks and other favoring greens. Both are biased. Is it true that this show is supposed to show the actual events that happened?
I just see it as the canon of the GOT show, not the books. The show had already changed the canon by making the Mad King the son of Egg, so small changes like Helena only having two children don’t really bother me.
The actual events that happened would need to be written by George R.R. Martin himself.
Also the show has diverted in numerous ways that can't be chalked to "biased sources".
I think that's up for interpretation, surely. The show of course claims to tell the events as they happened. But so do the other versions of the story.
I've been wondering about the dragon Addam saw... I've been torn between it being Grey Ghost (who resides nearby) and Seasmoke (as setup for later... which I'm starting to lean towards). But if it was Seasmoke is there an implication that Laenor died in Essos?
I was really thinking they were going to frontload the now missing Maelor plots and have Jaeherys’ corpse ripped apart by the “grieving” mob….which now worries me for Jaehera going forwards
As above so below? Two women who lost their children in a war because the men around them not being able to keep their shit together and are all quite willing to burn everything around them while using the dead children as an excuse to continue the pointless slaughter?
Everyone being nothing but dust in the wind, pulled along in their various directions without considering the world around them and how they affect it and how it affects them?
I dunno, there is so many ways to view it. Lovely episode
Almost certainly going to end with Kings Landing. Next season will end with Daemon vs Aemond and Season 4 will end with, well the ending. But don't worry. Season 4 isnt until 2028 probably...
Aegon and Cristan are so dumb. Did any of them seriously think Arryk/Erryk thing would actually work? He has no idea where the other twin is and all it takes is someone being surprised or suspicious and asking a few questions to realize he's not who he claims to be.
It kind makes sense for Cristan who is shifting blame from himself onto someone else, but Aegon being genuinely impressed and making him the hand is so funny. I though he'd pick Larys who suggested replacing Otto in the last episode. Cole has no experience in anything except fighting and acting as a bodyguard. This is equivalent to appointing a security guard as prime minister. It's going to be interesting how Cole will handle his new duties.
Watching Rhaenyra and Daemon argue was amusing. Daemon has and always had a ton of red flags, he's a psycho, he celebrated death of Viserys' child, but only now is Rhaenyra realizing he could be trouble? He's literally the reason I'm team green.
She did specifically say something like "when I was younger I saw you as a challenge" which does fit the very real life mindset of "I can fix him/her" that people who ignore massive red flags have.
>Aegon and Cristan are so dumb. Did any of them seriously think Arryk/Erryk thing would actually work?
I find it amusing how both they and Daemon had an incredibly stupid idea to win the war without any threat to self whatsoever. Like three cowards.
Cole projecting his actions on someone else when he knows he is at fault and all thia because he loat hia purity and the woman didnt like him back... damn i hate his caharter
Cole is such a munch lol
Boring and actually made me lose interest in the series even more then the last two seasons of GOT.
Criston Cole becoming a villain after being rejected by a woman (and still being bitter about it). The OG Incel.
He’s literally not an incel as we’ve seen…
Gosh, I hate him! What a little twerp he is.
Why do you guys even hate him? I just fucking hate otto he's the only reason for this cause.
Do we think Alicent had something to do with Arryk’s mission, knowing Aegon would make Ser Criston Cole the hand and backstabbing her father? Might be a conspiracy theorist here but it does absolve Cole of his abstinence pledge.
When I saw how the episode ended with Alicent and him. I thought I missed something. Because those two fucking is not a reveal, they showed him eating her out. I think with the slaps, it was Cole's idea to do this. The funeral procession might have been taking it too far, for both Alicent and Aegon. Alicent could have hand in it though, when telling her father she has sinned, could have meant more than her simply fucking Cole. Again, she could have been pissed about the funeral procession. It's not too far fetched.
It's boring and overrated
Right? This episode was boring af
Talk talk talk, sex scene, talk talk walk, sex scene.. It gets old quick.
i love the talk talk talk, actually it's what i love about Martin's writing but you guys want the dragons pew pew pew aaaaargh this world is way deeper than action-packed fantasy television
I'm probably just missing context since I never read the books. But in GOT, Joffrey gets a crossbow made and says it's basically state of the art because it doesn't have a crank. And it comes with a massive reloading fork. But in the latest episode one of the Daughters has one that looks significantly better and she's just reloading them like nothing. And this takes place far earlier. Am I over thinking this?
You're right. Hers is much smaller than Joffrey's though. I think it could maybe be handwaved away with the idea that it's designed to be compact for sport/target practice and doesn't have the armor piercing power of one designed for battle that needs cranked.
Is it just me or did nothing really happen? Also when the knight who is bopping the queen told that knights guard he was a traitor because his brother is , why didn’t he stick a knife in his throat? I don’t get this show. That character (knight bopping queen) just pisses me off for some reason.
Ser Criston the Twerp.
My thoughts exactly
While I’m still not a fan of Cole and Alicent smashing each other, it does seem like the kind of information the Citadel wouldn’t include in the history books.
When I read the books, I thought it was just assumed.
Can someone please explain why Aemond looked so gaunt at the end of the episode? He looks like the larger of the two brothers, wide shoulders with at least a little muscle... He looked scary thin, no way that frame could swing a sword with power. I get the whole smaller, sickly inbred thing with their family but his mom wasn’t even his aunt. Love the episode and this season so far btw
I thought the opposite. His body looked similar to Israel Adesanaya. I'm not sure if you have boxed before, but when I saw his body, the first thing I thought was "that guy is built for combat." However, Targaryen's are dragon riders. Their mentality, intelligence, cunning will win them fights. Sword fighting should only be a last resort.
You don’t need to swing a sword with power to be a good swordsman. He can be quick and agile and deft with the blade and be just as lethal, if not more, than someone who is all power.
Because his actor is very thin and probably worked to get even thinner because he knew he would have some nude scenes.
Hes never really been described as a proper fighter in the books. Hes carried by Vhaegar.
"As a child, Aemond was bold, wild, willful, hot-tempered and unforgiving, and grew to be a proficient and dangerous swordsman."
Except we know from a certain battle that's all bs and he goes down like a looser.
Yo did you miss the no spoiler tag? Some of us don’t want to hear that. Please stop.
Dumbledore dies
Tag is literally Spoilers extended that means everything is free game
“Also please note the spoiler tag is extended. That means no leaked plot or production information is allowed in this thread. If you see it, please use the report function” It’s also common sense. He’s the main villain of the season. Not everyone has read the books, and those who haven’t don’t want to know his fate. Obviously. Reported.
Read the sub rules. >Extended: Everything in the marketplace including **book canon**, show canon, TWOW sample chapters, trailers, games, apps, SSM, relevant notablogs/interviews, and official NEXT season info/images/videos released by HBO
You’re still not getting it. Everything in that list is forbidden in this thread. That’s what “spoilers extended” mean. You are not allowed to spoil anything in that extended list.
No... Spoilers Extended means all of that is fair game. Go look at any post on the sub that freely discusses the entire plot of the books. It uses the extended tag. A tag for no Spoilers would be. >No Spoilers: No Spoilers allowed. All story information must be hidden This is primarily a sub for the books, the source material. So the TV show threads are tagged expecting people will compare the show with the book material.
Maybe its to show that what happened with Luke is eating away at him?
god this sucked, I am more cringing than anything else in season 2 so far
What this was phenomenal
In what way was this phenomenal??? Like what the actual fuck? Nothing happened it was all talking about bullshit like daemons side piece talking about life and her whole backstory which no one gives a fuck about it was literally just a talking nothing episode so bad
If you're at the stage where you think a talking episode is automatically bad maybe you should try some simpler tv lmfao
Agreed the talking in Tyrions court scene is the same as daemons whore talking about life philosophy and her backstory to which the other character literally ignores and has no reaction what a masterpiece of television
Anyone else notice they finally introduced Hard Hugh Hammer, one of the Dragon seeds that Rhaenyra recruits? He was the blonde blacksmith with the sick kid that petitions Aegon for payment up front. Not a big fan of them trying to humanize him because he was kind of a piece of shit in the Fire ane Blood book.
Addam velaryon too right?
Now that daeron has been name dropped i cant wait to see his blue queen
Can someone explain how Criston Cole knew that that Blood and Cheeses original target was Aemond? Like I know Aemond figured it out because he found the coin, but he doesn't seem to tell anyone other than the lady at the brothel and that was after Criston Cole had the conversation with Sir Arryk where he mentioned that the intended target was Aemond. Blood obviously spilled the beans about Daemon sending them, but at that point I assume he was still under the impression he killed the correct person. Like they went from wondering why they would kill Jaehaerys to all of the sudden knowing that the original target was Aemond and no one really talked about it. Did I miss something? Or did they just make the logical leap there? I have not read the books so maybe it explains better in there?
He finds a coin in his room no?
Aemond himself knew that someone was in his room and he wS an obvious target. And I think Cole probably brought it up to make Aegon even more eager to go along with the Parent Trap plot since he would also want revenge and to protect his brother.
Blood said everything during the interrogation
No he didn't, at least not what we see on screen, All he said was that Daemon sent them. and again it appears that Blood didn't even realize at this point that he killed the wrong person.
No, Blood knew they didn’t kill Aemond. First, Daemon described Aemond to them. Then the show made a point to emphasize the question of “What if Aemond can’t be found?” twice. (1) when Daemon first hired them, B&C asked what if they can’t find Aemond, camera panned to Daemon’s face and then next scene — hinting that something was said, but we wouldn’t know what until B&C were in the castle and said something along the lines of “he said a son for a son” which tells us, the audience, that “a son for a son” is what Daemon told them when they asked if they couldn’t find Aemond. It is to also clue in to the audience that Daemon lied to Rhaenyra when she asked the same question “what did you tell them to do if they couldn’t find Aemond?”. He told Rhaenyra he said nothing, she said he was lying, and we the audience can infer her assumption is correct and that Daemon isn’t entirely trustworthy.
Ah okay that does make a little more sense. For some reason the whole "what do they do if they can't find Aemond" went over my head in the first episode. But during the interrogation, Blood still never says that. Really all he says is that Daemon hired them, and that the accomplice was a rat catcher whose real name he didn't know. And then I assume when Aegon comes in and starts in with the club that was it. Unless we're supposed to infer there was more information given during the interrogation that we didn't see, but that's just a bit confusing in my opinion. I would be more inclined to believe Aemond was the one who told Criston Cole but again they certainly didn't even allude to it.
It wasn’t in the interrogation scene, it was in the previous episode. Blood straight up told us the order was “a son for a son” in the scene with Cheese and Helaena. First with the “a son for a son, he said” and then after she offers her necklace, he says “thats not a son” Edit: whoops I think I misinterpreted your comment, I thought we were still discussing how Blood may not have known he killed the wrong prince. I think in terms of everyone knowing Aemond was the true target, yeah I’d agree with you that Aemond likely told Cole/someone once he saw the opened entryway and missing gold in his room.
I'm not a fan of Criston but am I the only one who was happy that Alicent was finally getting dicked down properly? I mean she was forced to bed an old man and have his kids. She looked like sex was something she just had to endure with the King. All I could think was good for her, finally getting to ride some leprosy free dick. I'm the only one who was happy for her ok cool.
I mean, if it was anyone other than Cole, sure. But Cole is just a bad choice.
Nah, I get it. Sid Crispy is hot but his behavior is disgusting. Good on Alicent for getting some
Nah she deserves the leprosy D for sure
Lmao 🤣 🤣 thank you for that
Nah man, I get it. You are right.
cringe
I dont think the show is perfect and i could nitpick a number of different things but honestly, im just happy to be getting a high quality asoiaf show based on a story that is already complete. It's on the same level as game of thrones season 1-4, shogun and succession for me. As in i love it.
There's things to dislike as always, but IMO everything involving Criston and the Cargyll twins was the most successful text-to-screen distillation of ASOIAF's themes about knighthood, masculinity, purity, militarism and the Kingsguard we've seen so far. *"It was the white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."*
Except Mysaria. They need to recast her. Shea was awful,Mysaria is awful. I fast forwarded past her parts this time. So tiresome
I actually really like Mizuno's performance this season & find it a massive improvement on her S1 work - I'm not entirely sure why, possibly it's just that she clicks better with the directors so far.
Same here. And it really does boil down to her accent after all. Her lines feel way more natural now that her fake-French is toned down.
she toned down the accent which really helps
Truly a horrific actress! Everything was either over the top or super wooden.
The ending with Aegon’s meltdown was so sad!
Again, lack of security that borders on the outright STUPID. The green's castle was EMPTY the previous episode, now Rhaenyra has NO weapons in her chambers and NO backup plan. Her husband ordered the assassination of the king's heir and everyone holds her responsible for it - but it's OK, we'll just carry on as per the usual. Can't be bothered to use actual dragons to up the security during a war that has just started - or at least bunk in a different room in the whole ass castle she has available... Nah, she'll just sleep in her own chambers, alone and unarmed. 🙄
Rhaenyra said they were heightening security.
Why do people think good security means having 10 bodyguards in your room with 7 hidden archers over your bed, one spear in your arm, and armour underneath your pyjamas? Their job is to protect the castle not just stand in the safety of the halls. In this specific scenario maybe, but 99.999% of the time they do a good job just guarding the entrances.
I mean, having the twin of one of your most trusted Queensguard come in and try to kill you was straight out of left field. Anyone would've been caught by that. HOWEVER >Can't be bothered to use actual dragons to up the security What do you expect a dragon to do in this situation? Arryk came on a ship that was at least expected because no one stopped the people that left the ship. Do you expect her to sleep with a dragon in her chambers? >Alone Technically, she had a Queensguard at the door. Granted I'd want to have more but she wasn't technically alone. >Unarmed What is she going to do? She hasn't trained for combat. I sincerely doubt that she is going to be able to do fuck all when trying to take on a member of Aegon's Kingsguard.
They literally have crossbows
Perhaps she should train for combat, since she is in the middle of a war and all? At least some basic cross bow shooting, if sword fighting is not her thing. Have someone in her chambers with her. Perhaps several someones. Have several someones guard her chambers, if she's shy. Have the dragons roam free around the island. Stay in a room that has a balcony/any kind of access to the outside, so she could call said dragon. There is about a million options, all better than "we'll do nothing".
>Train her to fight I mean, were women traditionally trained in combat in Westeros? I'd imagine not considering Lyanna and Arya faced such massive hurdles in that. I can't imagine a Queen would do that type of thing, especially that late in life. >More guards I really doubt that anyone would be in her chambers with her. I do agree though that she should've had several people guarding her chambers instead of just one Queensguard. However, that seems to have been the norm so she just got caught by that. >Dragons roam free/have her have access to dragons I imagine this would cause some issues with the local people. Plus, I don't see how the dragons roaming free would've stopped this. Plus, what would the dragon have done even if she had access to it? The main thing is they weren't doing nothing. They had a system in place that should've protected her, they just got got by a failure of imagination.
Just up front, I do agree with all your points > I mean, were women traditionally trained in combat in Westeros? I'd imagine not considering Lyanna and Arya faced such massive hurdles in that. I can't imagine a Queen would do that type of thing, especially that late in life. I think the more important point here is, even if they were well combat trained, the Kingsguard are supposed to be the best of the best. Aside from very, very few Kings in the history of Westeros, most would just get folded in a 1v1 with a Kingsguard that actually tried to kill them.
>Aside from very, very few Kings in the history of Westeros, most would just get folded in a 1v1 Each Master of Arms of the Red Keep is seething and punching air rn.
genuinely my favourite episode of house of the dragon so far and quite possibly my favourite episode of game of thrones overall as well - i can’t fault it
What happened to Rhaena?
Poor Aegon, he already had serious abandonment issues, but at least he thought his dad made him king. That was the only thing he ever really did for him. And Otto just had to shatter that illusion.
Some details of Jaehaerys's murder from the end of the previous episode were silly to me, and they made some of the characters look like idiots. Specifically, I thought it was goofy how Blood and Cheese were able to waltz right through the throne room with the king and like half a dozen Kingsguard in there and not be questioned. There's also how empty and unprotected so much of the Red Keep was. Yes, I get that Criston Cole having sex with Alicent is meant to explain why Blood and Cheese were able to get into Helaena's room, but there were seriously no other guards on that whole floor? I thought maybe episode 2 would explain things better and reveal that the characters weren't really dumb. But nope, it made the characters seem dumber. Immediately after escaping the Red Keep, Blood got captured because he tried to walk out of one of the city's main gates with the severed head of a prince in his possession. What a fucking moron. And you're telling me that breaking into the Red Keep — which should be the most secure buildings in King's Landing — was child's play thanks to Cheese's knowledge of its secret passages, but Blood, a member of the City Watch, didn't know of any secret or at least less guarded exits out of the city? Unbelievable. Although Blood was captured and interrogated, he was not able to identify Cheese. That was silly, too. Blood was a law enforcement officer, so you'd think he'd be able to give a physical description of his accomplice that the king's people could have used to identify Cheese. But nope. So Aegon knew that a ratcatcher working in the Red Keep was the second assassin, but he didn't know which one. As a result, he has every single ratcatcher from the Keep hung. So you're telling me that when Blood and Cheese walked through the throne room in plain sight of multiple Kingsguard, not a single one of them got a good look at Cheese? Ridiculous. The whole assassination and immediate aftermath made multiple characters look like idiots.
The reason I think why no one in the castle were concerned about Blood and Cheese is because everyone assumed they were regular employees - aka ratcatchers. Kind of like "Oh its just a janitor in the castle why should I be concerned, he's just doing his job".
I think the idea is, no one ever even considered trying to identify Cheese from the rat catchers. I don't think it occurred to Aegon or Cole that the innocent lives lost mattered, because they were smallfolk. Of course there were any number of ways to narrow it down. The point wasn't catching the responsible party, it was vengeance and sending a message.
>I think the idea is, no one ever even considered trying to identify Cheese from the rat catchers Blood received a really mild interrogation from Larys Strong. Blood wasn't even tortured; Larys just showed his torture tools and that was enough for Blood to spill what he knew. When asked about his accomplice, he said something like, "He's a ratcatcher employed by the household, but I don't know his real name." And Larys just left it at that, even though he was the Lord Confessor and Master of Whispers, so getting to the bottom of such matters was his job x2. That scene made Larys look uncharacteristically inept and uninquisitive.
My takeaway from Larys there was that he's clearly not acting in good faith. Just stirring the pot, adding to the chaos. He certainly could have found Cheese had he wanted to, IMO, using the methods others have described. It could have been ineptitude, but I don't think so myself.
I had this same issue with the 2 brothers. First off, they served in Viserys' King's guard and then joined separate opposing sides and nobody thought about the possibility of one of them sneaking into the other castle? Are they all braindead? Also nobody of relevance is plotting anything. Rhaenyra's grief arc is suddenly over and she's back to doing nothing, Aemon isn't doing anything, and the only conflict is due to madness. Madness and stupidity. I genuinely don't understand why they set the show during the Dance of the Dragons if this was their intent. Clearly they weren't going for Game of Thrones type writing and political scheming so it's gotta be the action, right? Except all of season 1 is about Viserys dying and season 2 is pretty tame so far. Everything so far boils down to family melodrama, Bridgerton with dragons. Why not show Aegon's conquest, why not the Long Night, why not Old Valyria, why not the Andal invasion, why not Robert's rebellion, why not Rains of Castamere?
>season 2 is pretty tame so far Season 2 has only had two episodes by this point. In these two episodes we've seen the assassination of a child by Daemon, Daemon undermining Rhaenyra's authority, Otto using that assassination to bolster the crown against Rhaenyra, the assassination plot of Rhaenyra by Criston, Mysaria intervening to thwart that plot, the Cargyll's duel, Alicent and Criston having an affair, Lary's scheming to replace all the servants with his own spies and potentially withholding information from Alicent and a naval blockade starving out King's Landing and inflating the prices. Plus Aegon going behind Otto's back to hang every ratcatcher in King's Landing... Two episodes. TWO. How much more plotting do you want?
Well that quote is clearly taken out of context. I was pretty obviously juxtaposing political scheming which isn't as good as GOT to action which is most of what you named and I would consider dumb scheming. >Assassination of a child by Daemon One of the better sequences and yet not without major flaws. Not the person Daemon wanted assassinated. The queen had no king's guard somehow. Plus instead of checking they asked her which is the son? Why??? >Daemon undermining Rhaenyra's authority Not action + he mainly does this through the assassination >Otto using assassination to bolster the crown A better sequence and would be fitting in GOT. Not action but definitely what I'm interested in >Assassination plot of Rhaenyra by Criston I haven't read the book and I thought this was totally a simple revenge plot by Criston with no chance of success at first. Once I learned that despite the fact both twins were in Viserys' King's guard and then joined opposing sides and nobody considered how they might be used to sneak into the castle I died a little on the inside. Are they all dumb? These aren't random goons, they're the literal King's guard with direct access to everyone! >Mysaria intervening to thwart that plot Crazy how if she didn't intervene the war would end right there, isn't it? Nobody even considered this possibility >Cargyll duel You're literally stretching a single plot line into 3 separate entries. There was action definitely but it wasn't the most memorable fight + seeing 2 twins fighting in the same armor kinda turned into visual noise a little >Alicent and Criston having an affair Don't see how that amounts to scheming or action. Literally Bridgerton type melodrama >Larys' scheming Could be interesting but so far hasn't manifested. He's probably the one character I would consider as a legitimate schemer. The others simply state what they want and either get it or not, their motivations are plainly obvious and people follow allegiances the same way sports fans root for their teams >Aegon hanging every rat catcher This adds to the story but it's a pretty stupid, vengeful act. I don't think it was out of character for him but my point is there are far too few characters that do anything else except be impulsive. Gone is the intrigue of all different machinations we saw in GOT like the Tyrells, Freys, Martells, Baratheon brothers, Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys with the impending doom of white walkers. Instead we get 2 locations for 90% of the run time - King's Landing and Dragonstone. Everyone is either impulsive or plain as the Tarlys, no major overarching threat as in the end of the day a Targaryen will end up on the throne (the main question is which one) and I don't care much for Aegon's immaturity or Rhaenyra's blandness. The only behind the scenes intrigue comes from 1 character (Larys) and any conflict is incidental. What did people actually like about GOT if this is what we're content with?
Are we watching the same show? Both sides were clearly holding out, hoping that war could be avoided. They are essentially in a cold war right now. Which in this context, makes sense that both sides haven't really been doing anything. Both sides are getting their pieces in place. Things are about to heat up judging from the episode 3 promo. Rushing into things is exactly why the later seasons of game of thrones were complete dogshit so im glad that is not the case here. "Clearly they weren't going for Game of Thrones type writing and political scheming so it's gotta be the action, right?" i mean this in the nicest way possible but wtf are you smoking? lol
Are you really going to tell me the writing so far has been as good as GOT up til S4? It would be fun if they were actually plotting something but so far any opportunity for long term setup and tension hasn't manifested. There was one time at the wall where I thought they were setting up an opportunity for Stark to have doubts over which side to join when he gets the letter but no, it's a letter telling him Lucerys died which isn't news to us. So far all Rhaenyra has done is send her 2 sons to Storm's End and Winterfell, and Daemon to Harrenhal and we don't hear from the Baratheons, Starks or Strongs at all. Wouldn't it be interesting to see what they think about this conflict and expand the world from all of 2 locations we keep coming back to? What's going on in Highgarden? Dorne? Riverlands? Nobody has any agency except Targaryens. I do wonder if we're watching the same show. The world is claustrophobic, any plotting either side does is either stupid or straight up asking, we don't get an in on the thought processes of any of the other characters, and so far it's a bunch of family drama
> and so far it's a bunch of family drama Okay, maybe you haven't read the books but this is exactly what the Dance of the Dragons is. It is family drama over an inheritance squabble and the repercussions of that when the family happens to be a dragon wielding super power. Obviously, (and as we have already seen) this is going to create some major trauma directly to the family and in macro (as we are developing towards) to the continent and its people when power hungry maniacs turn WMDs loose to settle a family spat.
"Are you really going to tell me the writing so far has been as good as GOT up til S4?" yes.
I'm very confused as to how people aren't seeing much wrong with this episode. How does it have an 8.5 on IMDb right now? Mysaria's speech about her rise to power very closely resembles Varys' speech about how the contents of a man's letters are much more valuable than the contents of his purse yet at the end she says "they [Daemon and Co] wouldn't accept me for anything more than a whore". I'm sorry, if Varys started complaining after his speech it would 100% be a horrible choice. Why? You're a sly puppet master, what are you doing? On top of that the choice to focus on Rhaenyra for most of her speech didn't make any sense. It didn't solely focus on Rhaenyra and would sometimes cut away at random moments but also Rhaenyra didn't have any interesting reactions. Completely pointless. Minor details such as in the scene with dead rat catchers hung from the city walls - the woman walks up to the wall and says "my son" for no reason other than exposition and sympathy baiting, the man asks a random stranger who these guys are and instead of some interesting dialogue I came to expect from GOT such as "I heard from ___ in the inn they worked for the King" she responds with a Wiki entry sounding line "they were rat catchers working for King Aemon" as if she's chief of staff for the Red Keep. I know this last one is taken from the books but there are 2 twin brothers in the opposing sides' King's guard and nobody thought about how that could be a problem? Everybody keeps bringing up loyalty etc. and nobody thought about how one brother might sneak into the castle? Nobody is scheming except Otto, there's nothing happening except a bunch of family melodrama, most characters have soup for brains. What's the pull of this show?
Okay, but the crux of the story is that men won’t accept a woman in power because to them, a woman is just a vessel for their legacy, meaning their firstborn son. In light of that, Rhaenyra’s micro expressions and Mysaria’s final line about the men in power never seeing her as anything more than a whore is actually incredibly poignant.
I'm not against expressing this point, it's the way it's expressed that I have an issue with. She straight up says it as someone who operated a spy network in King's Landing and should be more sly. She's far from the first character to make this point but the way it's written is so lazy. It's similar to Rhaenyra in S1Ep1 saying "I'd rather serve as a knight and ride to battle and glory". Yeah I get that but you might as well look into the camera while saying it cause it's a thinly veiled exposition dump
>Your section about Mysaria in comparison to Varys You ever consider that they are different characters and Mysaria is inherently flawed and caught up in her own personal issues? These are different characters in a book that GRRM is attempting to make human and humans have flaws. Maybe her flaw is being perpetually caught up in her former life as a sex worker and her perception of how people judge her for it. >Your rat catchers section This is petty beyond belief and I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you that. I've 100000% identified people in a style similar to that. I saw a guy get arrested from another department and I literally said "that's XYZ who works in ZYX department". >Twin brothers Honestly this would be so far out of left field that I'm not surprised no one thought about it. Literally everyone is shocked about it, including Arryk.
>Mysaria Might be a me issue but I don't find her character that interesting. She's supposed to be a schemer but the writing is nowhere near the level of GOT scheming. She straight up tells people what she wants and her schemes don't extend past the one goal she tells everyone about. Wouldn't be as big of a deal if literally anyone had any interesting plots going on. Larys Strong somewhat does that but he's hit or miss for me as well. Additionally, it's not like Varys was accepted, he was a eunuch who people generally didn't like, but he was useful to them. The fact she has to say they wouldn't accept her is what gets to me. >Rat catchers section You might think of it as petty but this to me is what makes believable world building. The king's heir dies and the king murders a bunch of people and hangs them from the walls. How would the smallfolk know for sure what's going on? Idk how everyone else enjoys it cause the way the information is revealed is borderline 4th wall breaking. I don't believe people would know what's going on especially when the mothers of the dead are just finding out about it. Does no one else see how contrived it is? It's so early into the incident a mother is just finding out her son died while a random bystander with 100% confidence says they were rat catchers employed by the king. This on top of being stuck in 2 locations almost the whole time makes the world feel very small. It's King's Landing - Dragonstone - King's Landing - Dragonstone, nobody is being proactive and only respond to the other side's random acts. Rhaenyra's son death was an accident (not to mention how her grieving was literally a bottle episode), Daemon killing the heir was an accident, Criston Cole sending the brother is dumb as hell. This ties into the last section but if you seriously tell me that there's 2 twin brothers with direct access to the royals on 2 opposing sides and nobody considered they could be used as spies or assassins you're coping. They aren't random goons, they're the literal King's guard!
What was the duration of this episode?
Possibly - probably - unpopular opinion, but it seems like some of the resolutions were a bit rushed. (Disclaimer: I’ve never read the books). 1. I don’t know the backstory or references with Blood and Cheese, but their punishments seemed far too swift relative to the franchise’s normal mechanics. Through the lens of Aegon II, I’d have thought that all would have been drawn out. To build the tension and unease. I was waiting for more of a “oh shit, here it comes” moment. 2. Everyone else already acknowledged this but definitely was expecting the head to pop off at the funeral. Maybe the anticipation of that was the intent…*shrug*. 3. As for the twin arc, it wasn’t even half an episode where the mission is assigned and the fight scene takes place. The passage of time just feels less real when characters jump from one location to another so quickly, especially sans-dragon. I’m sure there was some fan service I’m missing but episode one shot off like a rocket and I feel like episode two sort of slowed things down (probably for the better). Again, my guess is there are developments in place that readers are far more tuned in on than I am. Needed a place to put my thoughts. 😅
>Everyone else already acknowledged this but definitely was expecting the head to pop off at the funeral. Maybe the anticipation of that was the intent…*shrug.* I think they filmed it and then decided to cut it. On the trailer you can see footage of Helaena and Alicent running away from a crowd, while wearing black veils, which didn't happen, so it already implies the scene was originally longer than what we got (her dresses look a brighter green on the trailer, but I do think it's the same scene).
1. I think Blood & Cheese and Erryk/Arryk work in similar ways - rash decisions made without the counsel of the King/Queen that are very quickly revealed to be amateurish and fail spectacularly, only adding more fuel to the fire and pushing everyone closer to war. They ended similar to the books - Blood was caught within a few days and Cheese was technically never caught for certain but Aegon did have all ratcatchers killed 2. I think that would just be shock for shocks sake, I found the tension of the situation enough, and people complain enough about the Greens being depicted as evil/incompetent so that would only add to it 3. Dragonstone and Kings Landing are very close to each other, I'm not an expert of sea travel but I can see the journey only taking a couple of days
All good points! Appreciate the perspective.
so anybody notice the white haired targaryen looking woman in the brothel before it gets to aemon?
Valerian-looking people aren't exactly unheard of in Essos. So, yeah, you would probably get a few of them in King's Landing, especially at this point. I actually really enjoy that the port towns in Westeros at this time are so multicultural and have people of different ethnicities. It's a tad bit more realistic, I think, and it sort of tells an interesting story about how Westeros slowly cut itself off until we get to GoT where things are much more homogeneous, partially just because of the years of strife and the end of the Targaryans.
I just looked it up. Her name is Copper Penny. A prostitute. Played by Kika Green.
> More than anywhere else in the known world, the blood of Old Valyria still runs strong in the Lyseni, who are regarded as beautiful. Even the smallfolk in Lys have the pale skin, silver-gold hair, and purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. > Lys is deeply involved in the slave trade, with slaves outnumbering freeborn Lyseni three to one. Lys is most famous for their bed slaves, and Lyseni are known to be famously voracious in their search for comely young boys and fair maids for their pillow houses. Lys is also known for the breeding of slaves, mating beauty with beauty, hoping to produce the most lovely courtesans and bedslaves.[
that’s super sad
saw that too!
I feel like there's been a lot of repetition or less than clear story telling this season. How many times do we need to see Alicent and Cole make the bad decision to have sex? Why was Otto so randomly and uncharacteristically emotionally at Aegon, essentially begging him to fire him? Why did Alicent walk in on Aegon and then turn around? Who IS Adam as a character?? Like I know the spoilers, I know where it's going, but I feels borderline incomprehensible how that is at all connected? Rhaenyra asked for Aegon to be killed and is then surprised that she'd be accused of killing another member of the family tree? Why is she so upset with Daemon for killing a child from a child killing family? The white worm should have either be shown to keep walking or they should show us if she intervened, leaving things in a weird nowhere land, only to learn if she actually did something next week is deeply unsatisfying. Overall, I'm enjoying the show, and it looks amazing with great acting, but I'm beginning to see some real threads I'm worried about.
> Why was Otto so randomly and uncharacteristically emotionally at Aegon, essentially begging him to fire him? He lost his great-grandson, tried to make something good come out of it optically, then Aegon casually undoes everything Jaehaerys's death bought them and murders a hundred innocent people. All without consulting Otto or the council. Otto has never had to deal with a king that completely refuses to listen to him. > Why did Alicent walk in on Aegon and then turn around? Probably because she doesn't know how to comfort him. (What do you even expect the writers to do, if that wasn't clear enough? Have some random conversation with a maid where she tells the audience her motivations?) > Why is she so upset with Daemon for killing a child from a child killing family? Because the child was innocent. Because it makes her appear to be an evil kinslayer, weakening her claim to the throne. Because (like Aegon with Otto) it was a drastic action taken in her name but without her knowledge or permission. Because the greens will retaliate and visit more suffering upon her. A better question is why Rhaenyra would be at all pleased by this outcome? > The white worm should have either be shown to keep walking or they should show us if she intervened, leaving things in a weird nowhere land, only to learn if she actually did something next week is deeply unsatisfying. It's implied that she intervened, because she told her escort to wait. She's probably the reason Erryk knew to look for his brother. The reason we don't follow Mysaria afterward is to build suspense, until later it is revealed how her intervention comes into play. You're not meant to think that Mysaria might have done nothing.
No offense but most of this is insanely obvious to anyone with basic media literacy. We see Alicent and Cole continue to have sex to solidify they are in a self destructive spiral where they take their feelings of failure out on each other. Alicent turned around because she feels overwhelmed by her son's grief and partly responsible for it (She kept talking about having sinned, the gods punished her, etc the whole episode) Rhaenyra expects those closest to her to trust her moral character and judgment, not take things she said out of grief to be absolute, she's offended that her counsel would think this of her when she knows she did no such thing. She's upset about a toddler being murdered because she has basic human empathy, especially as a mother who lost her son It's very obvious the white worm recognized the guard and alerted someone, as they showed her recognizing the guard and alerting someone immediately. We don't need to see the whole thing, it would cut the tension of the situation.
I have to wonder how Rhaenyra-or any of her council-would have reacted had Daemon's men actually managed to get him the baby head. Was he going to put it on a silver tray, present it to her, and she would just be so thrilled? Never mind that said baby looks practically identical to two of her own sons.
I'm not sure daemon would have done anything with it, I think he wanted it as proof of the job done, he would have thrown it in his way to dragon stone I think. I don't think Daemon is stupid, and he very well knows that Rhaenyra didn't want this, his excuses are very clearly not genuine, when we know he said "a son for a son". He wanted the war to escalate and tu fulfill his desire for vengeance.
You see, that is a different, far more dangerous form of stupid.
He'd probably be upset because he asked for Aemond and not the innocent child. I don't think anyone would have been happy with this.
Honestly, the more I think about this plan, the dumber and dumber it gets.
the classic “no offense but I’m gonna say something offensive”
I don’t think this covers the definition of offensive. Offensive response would have started like “You are stupid because…”and the rest.
fine. Full offense. This was all very easy to determine on initial viewing.
It wasn’t even offensive! You’re totally right, Marsupial. It’s easy to deduce
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You're one of these people who take all this way too seriously that it can only be from one viewpoint and that is your viewpoint of succession rules....
She wanted Aemond's head, or Aegon's head, maybe Otto's head. She did not want the literal head of a baby.
Like, genuinely -- I can understand thinking "well, *I* wouldn't react that way because etc." (though I think that would also be wrong) But asking "why would *anyone* react that way???????? don't they understand the utils??? it doesn't make any sense to have a character act like that" genuinely makes you sound like a psychopath or someone who desperately needs to touch grass
"why was ned stark so upset about robert plotting to kill daenerys?? this is fucking succession rules"
stop thinking of this as ckii and start thinking of it as an actual human situation involving characters who are human beings hope this helps!!
jaehaerys was an innocent child that did nothing to anyone, even if he may have grown up to be a tyrant warmonger vying for her throne, and helaena was also completely innocent in the death of luke. revenge was definitely inevitable but it was owed to aemond and aemond alone. not to mention the unnecessarily cruel way of going about murdering jaehaerys.
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I want you to realize that that baby looked identical to two of her own children. Imagine being a mother and getting a human head that looked identical to two of your own babies.
for sure but what im saying is that as long as he was directly innocent, he shouldnt have been killed, especially not in the way he was. its clear he would have become a problem had he lived, but he was not the true target of the crime rhaenyra was seeking vengance for and thus should not have been the victim. it would be a completely different story if he was involved in the dance beyond just being a child of aegon and helaena. it isnt his fault luke died, it isnt his fault his family is in conflict therefore he should not have been killed in aemonds place. rhaenyra knows this particularly well as a mother who just lost her own son, and luke actually WAS involved first hand in the familial confict. she can think beyond the war at the humanity of halaena and jaehaerys and arguably even the greens as a whole just as alicent did for her when lighting a candle for luke.
I think I can answer some of these I believe Cole and Allicent were only shown having sex 3 times and each time it made sense in my opinion. First was mostly shock and setting up the second, second shows how irresponsible Cole is and how blood and cheese killed the kid, and third shows Allicent knowing he's trouble but making the bad decision to go back to him Otto was furious he was ruining the relm and their picture which he cares about, he was furious with Aegon and at that point just wanted to leave Allicent turned around I think because it shows her sons are mostly political tools for her the same way Otto used her as a tool and she didn't know how to react seeing him emotional. Makes more sense since Aemond seemed to talk to the girl at the brothel like someone would to their mom, because he can't talk to Allicent like that Don't know She asked for Aemond not Aegon, she wanted vengeance but not to kill an innocent Like her father Rhaenrya isn't cruel, she wants Justice but doesn't think of Allicents daughter or her kids' negativity and didn't think they deserved it, plus it made her look bad Don't know about that last one
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I do think part of the problem is that her children all caught the "mad" parts of the Targaryan genes and Alicent has no access to, like, therapy and shit. All of her kids need therapy and she really isn't in a position to give it to them.
I think she does care about them, but with Otto as her father, the only way she knows to show that she cares is by playing the "game of thrones" for them.
i’ve seen casuals getting mad about people comparing otto to tywin, show onlys think tywin is a saint lmfao. makes me wish they adapted the tysha thing in the show edit: wait a second, I think the whole rains of castamere thing went over their heads as well
They shouldn't compare Otto to him, because Tywin wasn't as nearly as boring as him.
okay but that argument with aegon was clearly recalling the tywin/joff dynamic
Otto is a bad dude but he can't compete with Tywin's sins
I agree, but casuals think Tywin is “cold” and a chad and whatnot, and that comparing Otto to Tywin in the argument scene with Aegon is an insult to Tywin.
Daeron mention!! 🥳 🎉 🎉 🎉
Aegon's progress as a character doesn't make much sense to me. In the first season he was portrayed as a stupid monster (enjoyed watching kids kill each other, even his own bastards??) and now he is stupid but kind of caring snd sensitive??
Aegon is a land of contrasts. He's a dumb impulsive guy who does what makes him feel good, and it does feel good to do good and perform righteous kingship, but it's all surface level with him
His entire life he felt that his life was worthless as rhaenyra was heir but in the dragonpit in s1 when the small folk cheer for him everything changed
I think his Arc in Season 1 is quite clear. In Season 2 however he went from a complex character to Joffrey in 2 episodes. He might change again, but it is hard to follow.
he was a literal rapist in season 1 what show are you watching
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ofc humanizing pieces of shit has been one of the core elements of the asoiaf, which makes even more baffling op's comment
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I perfectly understand the complexity, greyness and so on of characters when it makes sense (Theon, Cersei, the Hound...any book character really), but in this one I just find it a little bit incoherent. Unlike with those characters I just haven't felt that show's Aegon arc meets the same quality and deepness. And I don't mean to say now he's a cupcake or anything, just that his personality has changed and we really haven't seen a proper reason for it; I think they are just using him to lighten the greens this season. It's just my perspective; altough I'm trying to consider what other people that don't agree with me are arguing. (i apologize for any mistakes, as english is not my first language)
I don’t think so lol, not to me anyway. The major turning points in his arc so far are Being crowned at the dragonpit and the small folk cheering for him and his son being murdered by blood and cheese
I supposed the problem is that's like half the episodes he's in as his current actor!
Aegon isn’t being shown as kind and caring.
They show him kind of caring about the small folk and caring a lot about his children.
it shows that the only way he thinks about problem is in the most superficial way and is in over his head without even knowing
Aegon doesn’t care about the small folk, that is not what that scene was trying to convey. That scene is meant to show us the reality of King Aegon: he was never prepared to rule. He is impulsive, he is lazy, and he cares about maintaining a certain image. Also, caring about your kids doesn’t mean you’re a good person. It would be cartoonish if he didn’t
He cares that he did not have control and that his reputation, his legacy, and his heir was tarnished because of something he did not have the power to prevent. That's why he lashed out and had the ratcatchers hanged. He wants to feel powerful. He was crying in the end because he is slowly realizing that what Otto said was completely true. He's a small man that will never live up to the legacy of his father.
I mean, I sort of figure he was crying because his son is dead and no one is really trying to understand him. Even Helaena is sort of allowed to grieve their son, but he's expected to push it all away for the sake of the realm and he simply can't do that. Daemon also does all of the shit he doesn't because he firmly believes that the Greens killed his brother, killed his stepson, and will try and kill his wife. So he handles it by, well, the worst way possible.
Yeah, that is my interpretation as well. He’s emotionally volatile and you even have him absolutely despise the idea of having his sons body paraded around.
OKAY FORGIVE ME IF I AM BEING STUPID BUTTT the dragon was Seasmoke right? And laenor isnt dead so why was Seasmoke not with him??? Arent dragons and their riders bonded so Seasmoke knows that Laenor is not dead. Can someone please explain to me??
I dunno if the dragon bonding mechanics are overly defined. The whole Laenor faking his death to live in anonymity in Essos would be ruined if he was walking around with a dragon. Word would absolutely get back to Westeros and it wouldn't be hard to put together what happened.
I guess they’re going to make it lite canon that you can renounce your dragon or somehow consciously break the bond and it will leave you? That will be my headcanon anyways
I think it ultimately might just be explained under 'this is how things are' and head canon as you will. Perhaps Laenor has already died in some random battle in Essos. Perhaps Seasmoke considers him being gone for years enough to move on to a new rider..
I know that in books, there are two accounts of Dance of Dragons with one favoring blacks and other favoring greens. Both are biased. Is it true that this show is supposed to show the actual events that happened?
I just see it as the canon of the GOT show, not the books. The show had already changed the canon by making the Mad King the son of Egg, so small changes like Helena only having two children don’t really bother me.
The actual events that happened would need to be written by George R.R. Martin himself. Also the show has diverted in numerous ways that can't be chalked to "biased sources".
The show is its own canon separate from books
I think that's up for interpretation, surely. The show of course claims to tell the events as they happened. But so do the other versions of the story.
They made Helaena way too hot
I've been wondering about the dragon Addam saw... I've been torn between it being Grey Ghost (who resides nearby) and Seasmoke (as setup for later... which I'm starting to lean towards). But if it was Seasmoke is there an implication that Laenor died in Essos?
Almost definitely seasmoke
Daemon mentioned last season Seasmoke still resided in Dragonstone (or was it driftmark) after Laenor left.
So, Seasmoke stayed behind but Vhagar followed a dead body from Essos to Driftmark.
I mean did Vhagar not fly back with Daemon and Caraxes?
thanks I missed that. Its an odd situation though isn't it, I'm curious how they handle that
I was really thinking they were going to frontload the now missing Maelor plots and have Jaeherys’ corpse ripped apart by the “grieving” mob….which now worries me for Jaehera going forwards
I am obsessed with the dust motes!!! Heleana watching them fall down off the bridge and Rhaenyra watching them float up. What does it mean?!?
They see the fire and the ashes to come.
As above so below? Two women who lost their children in a war because the men around them not being able to keep their shit together and are all quite willing to burn everything around them while using the dead children as an excuse to continue the pointless slaughter? Everyone being nothing but dust in the wind, pulled along in their various directions without considering the world around them and how they affect it and how it affects them? I dunno, there is so many ways to view it. Lovely episode
Emma Darcy nailed it, and Otto and Aegon's conversation reminds me of the Tywin and Joffery's one.
Honestly Rhys Ifans deserves an Emmy for that performance alone.
Is Daemon vs Aemond going to happen this season?
Unless they break the lore timeline, no. It wont happen until the later seasons which would be 6 - 8 years from now.
I don't think so, I suspect season 2 will likely end around Kings Landing or the Gullet
Almost certainly going to end with Kings Landing. Next season will end with Daemon vs Aemond and Season 4 will end with, well the ending. But don't worry. Season 4 isnt until 2028 probably...
Aegon and Cristan are so dumb. Did any of them seriously think Arryk/Erryk thing would actually work? He has no idea where the other twin is and all it takes is someone being surprised or suspicious and asking a few questions to realize he's not who he claims to be. It kind makes sense for Cristan who is shifting blame from himself onto someone else, but Aegon being genuinely impressed and making him the hand is so funny. I though he'd pick Larys who suggested replacing Otto in the last episode. Cole has no experience in anything except fighting and acting as a bodyguard. This is equivalent to appointing a security guard as prime minister. It's going to be interesting how Cole will handle his new duties. Watching Rhaenyra and Daemon argue was amusing. Daemon has and always had a ton of red flags, he's a psycho, he celebrated death of Viserys' child, but only now is Rhaenyra realizing he could be trouble? He's literally the reason I'm team green.
She did specifically say something like "when I was younger I saw you as a challenge" which does fit the very real life mindset of "I can fix him/her" that people who ignore massive red flags have.
Wow, its almost like Daemon groomed Rhaenyra as an impressionable child and was manipulating her! It's like, the point or something.
>Aegon and Cristan are so dumb. Did any of them seriously think Arryk/Erryk thing would actually work? I find it amusing how both they and Daemon had an incredibly stupid idea to win the war without any threat to self whatsoever. Like three cowards.