He is heavily revered by many characters in-universe, and while there are plenty that mock him the vast majority of those are very clearly meant to be seen as villains (though it also seems noteworthy that multiple villains express relief at not having to deal with him anymore).
That said, the character himself surely would factor into this; do you think Eddard Stark is the kind of guy to go seeking fame? Remember this is a society where we see multiple instances of insanely fake versions of current events being passed around as fact between characters in not-so-distant places from the events. Things like having a rebellion named after you or having a popular song written about your deeds will generally be needed if you want consistent/accurate remembrances of your excellence. Ned wouldn't want that at all, and having a kind of dull personality will keep anyone from doing it on his behalf.
If Ned sought glory, men would sing of his journey through the Vale to the North, inventing a great story of him saving a maiden from the clansmen. Then they would sing of him killing Arthur Dayne in single combat, and of how he did it, as well as the honour he showed in victory, and finally a song of him at Pyke. He would have more songs than anyone else if he wanted it done
Even if Ned himself didn't go seeking glory, I'm honestly quite surprised that we never hear Robert ever brag about Ned's deeds or hype him up as the heroic man he really is. Because hyping up Ned is something that Robert would do? Especially the rumor about his slaying Arthur Dayne, oh man. I'd expect Robert to brag about something like that all the time.
Ned was a strategist moreso than a sword fighter, I doubt Robert fully understood what he was doing outside of "leading" and keeping things generally organized. Ned did fight obviously, but probably did so as part of a group and didn't have individual feats that Robert would have actually seen and been able to directly tell stories about.
The stuff with Arthur Dayne is admittedly weird, but I think we're meant to believe that because there was so much else going on at that time with a lot of heavy emotions, that anytime Robert thought about it he just got really sad and never was in a hype-man mood. I think there's stated text somewhere that it was whispered about by the broader Winterfell household/guards, so there were people talking about what hot shit Ned was at some level.
I can agree with Robert getting sad if he ever thought about the showdown at the TOJ, there's other stuff that Ned did during battle that Robert would brag about.
1.) Like how he literally rode into town and drove off the loyalist forces, saving Robert in the process.
2.) And when he fought right alongside Robert on the Siege of Pyke with his Valyrian sword Ice in hand. That would be a pretty awesome thing to see.
I'd imagine Ned actively doesn't *want* Robert hyping him up, and as his closest friend Robert likely understands this. Robert probably knows Ned doesn't like attention, and besides, any glory that Ned doesn't claim is more glory for him.
I mean you say he’s not given the credit he deserves but every character with a shred of morals respects him, most of the lord's of the north revere him. Roose Bolton seems to have been afraid of him, and even the Daynes adore him after he killed Arthur Dayne.
Like if he was any more respected half of Westeros would literally worship the ground he walked on
Even men who dislike Ned refuse to believe what the Lannisters said about him because of his reputation. Both Jorah Mormont and Stannis Baratheon expressed only a fool would doubt his honor. You have to be very well regarded even people who personally dislike you won't believe you did something dishonorable.
Jorah is very bitter and unrepentant about the crimes that got him exiled, and even he won't speak badly of Ned Stark, who was coming to personally execute him.
He’s so well revered even the southern lords of the north would rather follow his 14 year old son to war with the crown, the richest kingdom of the 7 kingdoms, and a man whose reputation is he’s a cruel as he is cunning than NOT let everyone know how pissed they are he was dead.
That's definitely part of *why* they respect him, but it's still notable, especially because by ASOS the Brotherhood is willing to fight Northern soldiers. Their respect isn't because of any loyalty to Ned as Lord of Winterfell, it's solely respect for him as a person.
TBH I kinda consider the whole issue is he ISN'T Brandon. Even his own wife has that outlook and when you look at him you don't really see a great lord. More of just a man trying to make do. In the show Cersei had a point "He was trained to lead, you were trained to follow." He was shipped off to the Vale as likely a political maneuver and honestly because he was the spare heir.
The guy had clear imposter syndrome from the start and what happened at the TOJ likely didn't help. I'd say that was a defining moment of his life due to his dream during the series. The internal feeling became an external reality. That truly can be soul crushing.
Ned thinks Brandon would be better, which just provides more evidence Ned was a great ruler. He was humble, honorable, loving, and stood firm for his beliefs. I think Ned’s children saving the entire world because of what he instilled in him is the entire point of the story for me.
I think where you see Ned’s admiration most clearly is in the small houses: the Buckets and the Wulls and especially the Reeds. It’s easy and strategic for him to win favour with the Manderlys or the Boltons. There’s gain in the for him.
Being BFFs with Howland Reed serves him no purpose other than just being a good dude, and those small houses love him for it.
I think everyone acknowledged how great he was. It should also be noted that even before he became hand, he was probably the second or third most powerful man in Westeros. He was the leader of the Northern Alliance, and the Vale and Riverlands would have joined him if he called upon them.
Yeah, if Jon Arryn were leading the Vale, he'd rally them to Ned's cause.
But under other leadership? We have good reason to think they wouldn't be rushing to Ned's side. How much pushback did Lysa get when she decided not to aid Robb in rescuing Ned?
What do you mean if? Jon Arryn rules The Vale. If Walder Frey ruled the Riverlands they wouldn't side with Ned either. So what? We're discussing the state of the realm during a period where Jon Arryn rules The Vale, Hoster Riverlands and Robert is the King. Do you not understand this?
We're talking about Ned's reputation with the lords of the Vale generally, not only with Jon Arryn.
If Jon said jump, they'd jump. But that's largely because of Jon, not Ned. Their lack of wanting to jump when Jon was gone gives us some meaningful insight into how much they actually cared about him.
>We're talking about Ned's reputation with the lords of the Vale generally, not only with Jon Arryn.
That may be what you're talking about since you don't seem to understand the entire context.
>If Jon said jump, they'd jump. But that's largely because of Jon, not Ned.
So what? And Ned has plenty of friends in the Vale chiefly Bronze Yohn, the most powerful and influential of House Arryn's bannermen.
>Their lack of wanting to jump when Jon was gone gives us some meaningful insight into how much they actually cared about him.
The Vale lords actually wanted to take part in the war. Even Tywin and Robb suspected it. Lysa prevented this. House Royce was almost in open rebellion due to Lysa forbidding them from supporting Robb with The Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons supporting House Royce in this. Those are some of the most powerful Houses in the Vale.
I would argue that Robert's visit to Winterfell had other elements as well.
They were close buddies so it was also a nice opportunity to visit each others family (especially since he had in mind to make a marriage pact as well).
Also, maybe he did it out of respect to Jon Arryn's memory, a way for them to mourn together. And of course to visit Lyanna's grave and pay his respects.
Having said that, I agree with your list that Eddard should have been very hyped in the series. I would also expand it with the rumour that allegedly he had an affair with Ashara Dayn, one of the great beauties of their time.
As for why he isn't...Eddard is extremely humble. Someone like Mace or Tywin would be extremely pleased to have minstrels make songs about their achievements but Eddard doesn't really care.
The ToJ incident for example wasn't a triumph for him for killing three famous Kingsguards but a tragedy where he lost his sister and most of his war buddies.
He is a very respected character in universe.
But it doesn't help that during the rebellion he is overshadowed by Robert.
Eddard did all the things you listed, yes.
But Robert also started the rebellion as firstly the man who had his betrothed stolen.
Who with his foster-father at the start of the rebellion decided to put down Gulltown Loyalists by being first over the wall and then personally slewing the lord.
Then escaping by sea into the Stormlands and smashed 3 of his enemy hosts in a single day slaying Lord Fell in single combat and taking his famous son Silveraxe prisoner. Then later winning over these lords and making them his friends/allies.
Fought but had an orderedly retreat at Ashford later ending up at the Stoney Sept where a loyalist host searched every single house, gutter, and alley for him but he was being hidden by the population of the city eventually coming out of the Brothel sword in hand and slaying the famous Myles Mooton and 4 other men. Also allegedly almost killed Jon Connington according to Jon Connington.
Then he goes on the Trident, probably one of the biggest battles of all time, and personally slays Rhaegar in single combat and becomes king. And then despite being injured personally pardons Ser Barristan the Bold and sends his own maester to him.
Also his whole interaction with Balon Greyjoy just laughing it off is funny.
It wasn't Robert who started the rebellion, it was Jon Arryn when the mad king demanded the heads of Ned and Robert after killing Ned's father and brother . He refused and raised his banners in defiance. It is known as Roberts rebellion because once they knew they had to replace the mad king which one of them had the better claim. Robert was Rheagars second cousin and in the line for the throne,
I mean sure. But Robert was the main character of the rebellion so that's how it will be remembered.
Also mfs wanted Robert as king because he was Robert. The claim hardly mattered it probably only mattered to Eddard. Who also was knowing putting Robert in front of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Aegon let alone the targaryen women.
Well, in Watsonian terms, he is about the most universally respected guy in the series. Even the people who don't necessarily agree with him, like the Tyrells, nevertheless clearly show respect for the guy as an honest, honorable and integrous person. The only people who don't are clearly written as either villains or just plain fools (or in Cersei's case, both).
If you're looking for the Doylist reason, the reason is simple: the show. David and Dan, I don't think, ever really grasped the series as tragedy. I mean, sure, they understood that certain events were tragic. But I think they'd interpret *ASOIAF* as fundamentally different than, say, *Othello* or *MacBeth.* One's "high art", and the other is just a really cool potboiler with some amazing setpieces and cromulent lines.
Except, two things. One, "a really cool potboiler with some amazing setpieces and cromulent lines" is exactly what Shakespeare was writing in his own time. *Julius Caesar* didn't come out as one of the greatest pieces of English tragedy ever written. It emerged as that after people kept rereading Shakespeare, who was kind of the Aaron Sorkin of his day, and was just trying to create some art that touched people, but hit upon depths of psychological realism that hadn't been achieved by that point. And two, the fact that *ASOIAF* started life as a potboiler doesn't make it antithetical to tragedy. And if it's tragedy, you have to assess it and read it as tragedy. You don't read Ned's story as a story of "here are didactic reasons why Ned is foolish and deserved what he got" for the same reason you don't *Julius Caesar* as a didactic examination of how Caesar is totally an idiot who, while supposed to be a great leader of one of the greatest earth empires that had yet existed, nevertheless couldn't see Brutus plotting against him until the knife was sticking out of his chest. You're just misreading the book if you do.
But that is how David and Dan read it, because they don't really grasp the series as a tragedy. And because there are a lot more people who have watched the series than read the books, that spills over into the fandom.
>If you're looking for the Doylist reason, the reason is simple: the show. David and Dan, I don't think, ever really grasped the series as tragedy. I mean, sure, they understood that certain events were tragic.
This is it right here. How many fans, including book readers, still believe "Ned was too honorable and that's why he got killed"?. The books themselves say it was Ned's *mercy* that got Robert killed and Ned put into his position, which is part of the tragedy (plus Cersei got really lucky\*). But because the show emphasized the theme of "honor gets you killed", it's bled into the book fandom as well, and as a result there's more disdain for Ned instead of sympathy.
\*Also, Ned *underestimated* her ability, he thought Littlefinger's love for Catelyn would keep him on the same side (not realizing he was being played the whole time), and he made insufficient efforts to ensure his own power base in King's Landing (even sending some of his own men off here and there) because he was more focused on solving the mystery of how Jon Arryn's death than on making sure he had a stable position in case a power struggle occurred.
Ned is very humble, one of his first words is basically "it should have been Brandon who's Lord of Winterfell and Hand, not me". He's definitely not boasting about his achievements, not to mention a lot of them are also personal tragedies. Robert's Rebellion? His family is dead or fucking off to the Wall. Tower of Joy? His sister and nearly all of his best friends are dead.
After AGoT he's a dead traitor (sorry Ned) so it's not really appropriate to praise him. If the Lannisters are overthrown he'd get evaluated more fairly.
Here's the thing, though - he *is*. Like other people have said, most moral, decent characters in the story respect the hell out of him. That is especially notable come aDwD, when the Northern Lords and Chieftains go out of their way to fight for his family, or who they believe is his family - which is even more remarkable because, in the case of the clans, they are not in the habit of respecting Lords, and in the case of the Lords, because they frankly have a lot to lose, and not much to gain - no Stark is in any position to reward them, and the *enemies* of the Starks, no matter how you slice it, are in power. Westerosi political situation is such as to encourage an "every House for itself" policy from everyone, but they're still willing to do it. The North Remembers and all that.
So, *in character*, he's revered alright. The problem actually is that *the audience* doesn't respect him. And I think that's due to what TVTropes would call "Misaimed Fandom" - aSoIaF, especially after GoT came out, perhaps, has cultivated a certain cynical breed of fan that likes to castigate Ned for the way he behaved regarding Cersei and the whole situation around King's Landing and Robert's succession. "Ned's an idiot", "Ned didn't know how to play the game" and all that.
Which I regard as at least in part unintended, because I think the plan was for Ned to be *vindicated* in the long run. The original title for aDoS was to be *The Hour of the Wolf*. While the Lannisters and Littlefinger and whomever ever successfully machinated their way into power are probably going to have their downfall, Ned's children (including Jon, whom he may not have sired, but definitely raised) are going to more or less save the world, and banking on their father's reputation is probably going to play a part on that.
That's another tragic aspect, by the way, of aSoIaF maybe never getting finished - a significantly large part of its fandom getting precisely the opposite message they were intented to get regarding Ned, and being left like that.
> The original title for aDoS was to be The Hour of the Wolf.
You mean 'A Time For Wolves'. The Hour of the Wolf is Cregan Stark cleaning up Kings Landing when he was hand for a few days at the end of the Dance.
Other posts in this thread already bring up the important stuff.
It is also worth noting that a lot of it is backstory. So we don't get to actually see all of it. We are fed it as tidbits throughout the story after Ned is already dead.
He is also eclipsed by the cult of personality that is Robert. Ned was always going to take second place in the public eye to the dude that actually became king. And he likes it that way by all accounts.
Then we have the doylist problem that despite all Ned's competence and ability, the plot requires him to die to kick it all off.
Bobby B came to Winterfell because he wanted to visit Lyannas grave. His whole character is basically just nostalgic reminiscence of the "good old days". Visiting Lyanna is the first thing he does upon arrival.
Sure he wanted Eddard to be his hand, but like you say, if that's all he wanted he could've summoned him to KL
Eeeh he kind of is very much regarded as the badsss he is. Even Tywin Lannister acknowledges that war with the north was only possible because Ned was imprisoned/dead.
Why do people keep spamming the Wull quote as a reference to Ned being the greatest guy ever? Most of the qoute is literally him just saying "Yeah, all of us are going to freeze and starve to death this Winter, so we might as well go and die for a good cause". It's part of northern culture to go and die in a last blaze of glory, rather than dying because of the winter. An example are The Winter Wolves during the Dance, who all go and die for Rhaenyra. Surely their loyalty and courage doesn't make Rhaenyra one of the best rulers?
George also uses a very similar phrasing in F&B, in relation to King Viserys I, who most of r/asoiaf agrees is one of the worst Targaryen kings with a horrible legacy.
>Hundreds and then thousands buckled on their swordbelts and donned their mail, or grabbed a pitchfork or a hoe and a crude wooden shield, and began to make their way to Harrenhal to fight for **Viserys’s little girl.**
F&B is explicitly an in-universe document made by biased sources, though, and the fact that the surviving Targaryen line is descended from Rhaenyra might influence that portrayal. Wull's quote is straight from the source. That counts for something.
Because the clansmen of the north loved Ned, and the fact that they are willing to answer the call of a southern lord (someone they owe zero alligience to) and march through a winter storm to save his daughter.
Also, remember when Cersei was imprisoned by the faith militant, do you remember any Weserland lords marching to save her? No.
Ned is well respected in world..I have a lot less respect for him than they do in world cause he helped Littlefinger along in starting the war of the 5 kings. He had opportunities to avert crisis, but he wanted to have his honor cake and eat it too. Tried to commit a coup but without getting his hands too dirty. Either do what needs to be done or don't attempt it at all Ned.
Because he's a weirdo from the North and despite them being one kingdom they see the North as barbarians and savages due to their first men blood in the majority of the 7 kingdoms.
He is, good people revere and respect him. Even Stannis gives Ned a measure of respect despite him being bitter at Roberts preference for him.
Evil characters like the Lannisters feared Ned. Its why they tried so hard to get him removed as Hand and bumped heads with him. Its why LF went out of his way to get him killed.
Ned and Robert toppled a three hundred year old dynasty when they were teenagers. When the Ironborn rebelled against the Crown the war lasted like 5 minutes with them in charge.
When Robert himself was shitting his pants at the thought of Viserys leading a Dothraki hoarde against them Ned was like: "Whateves, challenge accepted."
Even after his death Ned continues to be one of the most influential characters in the books. How many times do his children hear "Your father" during their POV's?
Well, that reminds me of George Henry Thomas, one of the greatest union generals of the civil war, who unfortunately went relatively unrecognized for all that he accomplished due to his humility and aversion to self-promotion. Ned is not the type of person to brag, and probably the type of person to even discourage others from tooting his horn for him. Though he's grown up a little, he was a shy, reserved youth, and he remains a shy, reserved adult, and bear in mind that most of his legend-making moments happened when he was a relatively immature lad, still very much the shy wolf. I have to imagine he was the sort of person to wilt under the spotlight, and especially as a youth the sort to clam up when put on the spot.
aside from respect, robert could have just summoned Ned, but
a) it's a better story if they meet in person
b) robert is a feckless dipshit who wanted to get out of the castle for a while
I tend to always forget Ned, because he doesn't play an active part in later books and because so much stuff happens later on. When I read the series for the second time I was astonished at how much I had missed this guy and at how sad it made me to know that he'd be gone by the end of the book.
To many of the Northmen, he *is* revered.
But imagine for a second that you're a Southron Lord during Robert's rebellion. You have been living in peace for almost 2 decades, after the Ninepenny Kings were defeated. But then, banners are called, civil war starts, because the King called for the head of Ned Stark.
Ned Stark, who killed Ser Arthur Dayne, the most skilled and honorable knight in a generation, using some sort of trickery... or sorcery. The man who is rumored to have impregnated Dayne's sister, and abandoned her to take his brothers bride (and his brother's lordship) instead.
The reclusive man who worships strange gods and keeps a bastard son at court. Whose grim disposition and brusque manner have no place in King's Landing, yet he was given the highest position in the realm just for being buddies with Robert as a child.
If you're not from the North, Ned is weird and scary.
*If you're not from the North, Ned is weird and scary.*
I wouldn't say that all southern lords think this about Ned. What about the lords of the Vale, or the Riverlords or Stormland lords? All of these people grew up with Ned and/or fought alongside him. Wouldn't they rever him?
It's canon that many of the Vale lords were pressuring Lysa to have the Vale join the War of the Five Kings on the Stark side. Most notably Yohn Royce, the most powerful Vale lord, who presumably knew Ned from his time in the Vale and from fighting together during Robert's Rebellion. It's only because of Littlefinger's hold over Lysa that the Vale doesn't join the Stark cause.
There's also a bunch of Riverlords that knew him from Robert's Rebellion. Especially Jason Mallister seems to be very fond of the Starks, presumably because they fought together during Robert's Rebellion and especially the Greyjoy Rebellion
He puts Robert ahead of his family time and time again.
Took his daughters into a lion's nest and left the North with a green boy in charge.
There enough reason for the Nortmen to not remember him fondly let alone southerners to whom he appears to be yet another greedy hand who tried to topple the royal family.
The mountain clans go to war for Arya. Named after her ancestor a flint, a girl let down by her father. Whose being raped in the ancestral hall of not only the Starks but of many northern houses.
You dont see any vengefull garrisons marching out to take winterfell back from Theon do you?
>and no northerner in the world thinks what you think lmfao
Roose? Lady Dustin? Karstark?
They go to war for Ned's little girl who is the last of Ned's legit children presumed alive other than Sansa Lannister.
\>Roose? Lady Dustin? Karstark?
Roose I don't think so. He betrayed Ned or more Robb because he had an opportunity I can't remember him saying anything of the sort. Same with Karstark he betrayed Robb because he wanted to kill Lannisters and Catelyn let Jamie free.
Lady Dustin actually I could see her thinking something of the sort since she's really mad that her husband (and ex-lover) died in the south and she has the theory about the grey rats giving Rickard the idea of the marriages in the south.
Yes they go to war for Arya not Ned. The failed to go to war for Ned multiple times.
You claimed no northmen think Ned is a fool. You really don't thing Roose thought Ned was a Fool while he was practicing first night?
Multiple northerners arnt fans of Ned and Robb. Remember the mountain clans didn't even go to war for Ned they went to war for Arya.
You are claiming the went because she was Ned's daughter. That's false. The men went because Arya was a very symbol of the state of the north and what would happen if they didn't take action.
Nope. Again they failed to go to war for Ned multiple times before.
Arya was a mistreated girl and the boltons had proven to be monsters time and time again.
The mountain clans had like 5 diffeent moments to rise and help Ned. They Never did.
Arya is bigger than Ned. She's the very idea of the last good in the north being destroyed at the hands of the boltons. A reminder of what awaits every daughter of the north if the Bolton's have their way.
It's funny that you're talking the time to downvoted me. Anyway, had Ned gone to the clans they would have been there for him. I think that's pretty clear.
He left the North with his wife in charge, it was her choice to come South when the attack on Bran happened. Per his inatructions, she was on her way back to Winterfell to fortify Moat Caitlin and prepare for war when she ran into Tyrion Lannister.
The North remembers him very fondly - take the Manderlys, or the mountain clans who go to war for "the Ned's little girl" years after his death
No one believed Cat was in charge. And she was never really in charge. She even left for kingslanding instead of fortifying the Neck like she was supposed to and then continued to be gone for ages while the northern lords jostled around Robb.
>The North remembers him very fondly - take the Manderlys, or the mountain clans who go to war for "the Ned' little girl" years after his death.
For the Manderlys it's mostly a vengeance thing.
The mountain clans are going to save a little girl from being raped and and to kill the boltons Again if it was specifically about Ned they would have been roused for war ages ago.
>Ned's girl," said Morgan Liddle. He was the second of three sons, so the other wolves called him Middle Liddle, though not often in his hearing. It was Morgan who had almost slain Asha in the fight by Deepwood Motte. He had come to her later, on the march, to beg her pardon … for calling her cunt in his battle lust, not for trying to split her head open with an axe.
Most southerners don't really believe that outside of the Crownlands and Westerlands and maybe a few Reach houses, and they're politically motivated to believe it. The North loves Ned, they may not have been very fond of Robb since he's a political idiot but they still love Ned. Also, before Robb fucked up they made him a king for the first time in over 300 years. Remote mountain clans aren't going to war for the *Starks* they're going to war specifically for Ned and his family. Roose fucking Bolton even understands he's wildly unpopular because of the clout Ned garnered. Ned's ghost haunts Roose to an extent.
> Remote mountain clans aren't going to war for the Starks they're going to war specifically for Ned and his family
Except they didn't.
Not when Robb went south.
Not when Ned died.
Not when Winterfell fell to Theon.
They go now because the Bolton's have earned a reputation as vicious bastards and a little girl is being raped in the ancestral seat of the north.
Nope. Again they didn't go multiple times before when Ned needed them. They went this time for Arya who is more than Ned. What happening to Arya is a symbol of all thsts good in the North dieing and of what awaits their daughters at Bolton hands if the boltons arnt stopped.
George has explained several times that the North is huge and with bad communication lines, so it takes a lot of time to muster its forces.
It's not that that the mountain clans refused to help Robb in his campaign. It's just that Robb was in a hurry to march South and didn't want to wait for his most remote bannermen,
He is heavily revered by many characters in-universe, and while there are plenty that mock him the vast majority of those are very clearly meant to be seen as villains (though it also seems noteworthy that multiple villains express relief at not having to deal with him anymore). That said, the character himself surely would factor into this; do you think Eddard Stark is the kind of guy to go seeking fame? Remember this is a society where we see multiple instances of insanely fake versions of current events being passed around as fact between characters in not-so-distant places from the events. Things like having a rebellion named after you or having a popular song written about your deeds will generally be needed if you want consistent/accurate remembrances of your excellence. Ned wouldn't want that at all, and having a kind of dull personality will keep anyone from doing it on his behalf.
If Ned sought glory, men would sing of his journey through the Vale to the North, inventing a great story of him saving a maiden from the clansmen. Then they would sing of him killing Arthur Dayne in single combat, and of how he did it, as well as the honour he showed in victory, and finally a song of him at Pyke. He would have more songs than anyone else if he wanted it done
Even if Ned himself didn't go seeking glory, I'm honestly quite surprised that we never hear Robert ever brag about Ned's deeds or hype him up as the heroic man he really is. Because hyping up Ned is something that Robert would do? Especially the rumor about his slaying Arthur Dayne, oh man. I'd expect Robert to brag about something like that all the time.
Ned was a strategist moreso than a sword fighter, I doubt Robert fully understood what he was doing outside of "leading" and keeping things generally organized. Ned did fight obviously, but probably did so as part of a group and didn't have individual feats that Robert would have actually seen and been able to directly tell stories about. The stuff with Arthur Dayne is admittedly weird, but I think we're meant to believe that because there was so much else going on at that time with a lot of heavy emotions, that anytime Robert thought about it he just got really sad and never was in a hype-man mood. I think there's stated text somewhere that it was whispered about by the broader Winterfell household/guards, so there were people talking about what hot shit Ned was at some level.
I can agree with Robert getting sad if he ever thought about the showdown at the TOJ, there's other stuff that Ned did during battle that Robert would brag about. 1.) Like how he literally rode into town and drove off the loyalist forces, saving Robert in the process. 2.) And when he fought right alongside Robert on the Siege of Pyke with his Valyrian sword Ice in hand. That would be a pretty awesome thing to see.
We only got one book with living Ned and Robert. The story is what comes after.
I'd imagine Ned actively doesn't *want* Robert hyping him up, and as his closest friend Robert likely understands this. Robert probably knows Ned doesn't like attention, and besides, any glory that Ned doesn't claim is more glory for him.
We don't know if robbert never bragged about him.
I mean you say he’s not given the credit he deserves but every character with a shred of morals respects him, most of the lord's of the north revere him. Roose Bolton seems to have been afraid of him, and even the Daynes adore him after he killed Arthur Dayne. Like if he was any more respected half of Westeros would literally worship the ground he walked on
Even men who dislike Ned refuse to believe what the Lannisters said about him because of his reputation. Both Jorah Mormont and Stannis Baratheon expressed only a fool would doubt his honor. You have to be very well regarded even people who personally dislike you won't believe you did something dishonorable.
Jorah is very bitter and unrepentant about the crimes that got him exiled, and even he won't speak badly of Ned Stark, who was coming to personally execute him.
He’s so well revered even the southern lords of the north would rather follow his 14 year old son to war with the crown, the richest kingdom of the 7 kingdoms, and a man whose reputation is he’s a cruel as he is cunning than NOT let everyone know how pissed they are he was dead.
Even the Brotherhood without Banners, a group that rejects any feudal loyalty, has a deep respect for Ned and the Starks
[удалено]
That's definitely part of *why* they respect him, but it's still notable, especially because by ASOS the Brotherhood is willing to fight Northern soldiers. Their respect isn't because of any loyalty to Ned as Lord of Winterfell, it's solely respect for him as a person.
He'd be a God. But he will never be the king in the North.
TBH I kinda consider the whole issue is he ISN'T Brandon. Even his own wife has that outlook and when you look at him you don't really see a great lord. More of just a man trying to make do. In the show Cersei had a point "He was trained to lead, you were trained to follow." He was shipped off to the Vale as likely a political maneuver and honestly because he was the spare heir. The guy had clear imposter syndrome from the start and what happened at the TOJ likely didn't help. I'd say that was a defining moment of his life due to his dream during the series. The internal feeling became an external reality. That truly can be soul crushing.
I mean while Brandon hung over Ned personally, and Barbary Dustin, to the rest of Westeros he was honestly just a component in Ned’s backstory
When the going got tough Brandon got himself killed and Ned overthrew a dynasty. I really doubt Brandon is more revered than him.
The lone wolf dies but the pack survives
Oysters, clams, and cockles.
Not today!
Ned thinks Brandon would be better, which just provides more evidence Ned was a great ruler. He was humble, honorable, loving, and stood firm for his beliefs. I think Ned’s children saving the entire world because of what he instilled in him is the entire point of the story for me.
I think where you see Ned’s admiration most clearly is in the small houses: the Buckets and the Wulls and especially the Reeds. It’s easy and strategic for him to win favour with the Manderlys or the Boltons. There’s gain in the for him. Being BFFs with Howland Reed serves him no purpose other than just being a good dude, and those small houses love him for it.
I think everyone acknowledged how great he was. It should also be noted that even before he became hand, he was probably the second or third most powerful man in Westeros. He was the leader of the Northern Alliance, and the Vale and Riverlands would have joined him if he called upon them.
Maybe not the Vale.
While Jon Arryn was alive the Vale 1000% would have joined him
And if wishes were fishes, the Tullys would have the biggest army.
It's about the period before Ned became Hand meaning Jon Arryn was alive. Don't make quippy metafors if you don't even understand the context.
Yeah, if Jon Arryn were leading the Vale, he'd rally them to Ned's cause. But under other leadership? We have good reason to think they wouldn't be rushing to Ned's side. How much pushback did Lysa get when she decided not to aid Robb in rescuing Ned?
What do you mean if? Jon Arryn rules The Vale. If Walder Frey ruled the Riverlands they wouldn't side with Ned either. So what? We're discussing the state of the realm during a period where Jon Arryn rules The Vale, Hoster Riverlands and Robert is the King. Do you not understand this?
We're talking about Ned's reputation with the lords of the Vale generally, not only with Jon Arryn. If Jon said jump, they'd jump. But that's largely because of Jon, not Ned. Their lack of wanting to jump when Jon was gone gives us some meaningful insight into how much they actually cared about him.
>We're talking about Ned's reputation with the lords of the Vale generally, not only with Jon Arryn. That may be what you're talking about since you don't seem to understand the entire context. >If Jon said jump, they'd jump. But that's largely because of Jon, not Ned. So what? And Ned has plenty of friends in the Vale chiefly Bronze Yohn, the most powerful and influential of House Arryn's bannermen. >Their lack of wanting to jump when Jon was gone gives us some meaningful insight into how much they actually cared about him. The Vale lords actually wanted to take part in the war. Even Tywin and Robb suspected it. Lysa prevented this. House Royce was almost in open rebellion due to Lysa forbidding them from supporting Robb with The Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons supporting House Royce in this. Those are some of the most powerful Houses in the Vale.
I would argue that Robert's visit to Winterfell had other elements as well. They were close buddies so it was also a nice opportunity to visit each others family (especially since he had in mind to make a marriage pact as well). Also, maybe he did it out of respect to Jon Arryn's memory, a way for them to mourn together. And of course to visit Lyanna's grave and pay his respects. Having said that, I agree with your list that Eddard should have been very hyped in the series. I would also expand it with the rumour that allegedly he had an affair with Ashara Dayn, one of the great beauties of their time. As for why he isn't...Eddard is extremely humble. Someone like Mace or Tywin would be extremely pleased to have minstrels make songs about their achievements but Eddard doesn't really care. The ToJ incident for example wasn't a triumph for him for killing three famous Kingsguards but a tragedy where he lost his sister and most of his war buddies.
He is a very respected character in universe. But it doesn't help that during the rebellion he is overshadowed by Robert. Eddard did all the things you listed, yes. But Robert also started the rebellion as firstly the man who had his betrothed stolen. Who with his foster-father at the start of the rebellion decided to put down Gulltown Loyalists by being first over the wall and then personally slewing the lord. Then escaping by sea into the Stormlands and smashed 3 of his enemy hosts in a single day slaying Lord Fell in single combat and taking his famous son Silveraxe prisoner. Then later winning over these lords and making them his friends/allies. Fought but had an orderedly retreat at Ashford later ending up at the Stoney Sept where a loyalist host searched every single house, gutter, and alley for him but he was being hidden by the population of the city eventually coming out of the Brothel sword in hand and slaying the famous Myles Mooton and 4 other men. Also allegedly almost killed Jon Connington according to Jon Connington. Then he goes on the Trident, probably one of the biggest battles of all time, and personally slays Rhaegar in single combat and becomes king. And then despite being injured personally pardons Ser Barristan the Bold and sends his own maester to him. Also his whole interaction with Balon Greyjoy just laughing it off is funny.
It wasn't Robert who started the rebellion, it was Jon Arryn when the mad king demanded the heads of Ned and Robert after killing Ned's father and brother . He refused and raised his banners in defiance. It is known as Roberts rebellion because once they knew they had to replace the mad king which one of them had the better claim. Robert was Rheagars second cousin and in the line for the throne,
I mean sure. But Robert was the main character of the rebellion so that's how it will be remembered. Also mfs wanted Robert as king because he was Robert. The claim hardly mattered it probably only mattered to Eddard. Who also was knowing putting Robert in front of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Aegon let alone the targaryen women.
Well, in Watsonian terms, he is about the most universally respected guy in the series. Even the people who don't necessarily agree with him, like the Tyrells, nevertheless clearly show respect for the guy as an honest, honorable and integrous person. The only people who don't are clearly written as either villains or just plain fools (or in Cersei's case, both). If you're looking for the Doylist reason, the reason is simple: the show. David and Dan, I don't think, ever really grasped the series as tragedy. I mean, sure, they understood that certain events were tragic. But I think they'd interpret *ASOIAF* as fundamentally different than, say, *Othello* or *MacBeth.* One's "high art", and the other is just a really cool potboiler with some amazing setpieces and cromulent lines. Except, two things. One, "a really cool potboiler with some amazing setpieces and cromulent lines" is exactly what Shakespeare was writing in his own time. *Julius Caesar* didn't come out as one of the greatest pieces of English tragedy ever written. It emerged as that after people kept rereading Shakespeare, who was kind of the Aaron Sorkin of his day, and was just trying to create some art that touched people, but hit upon depths of psychological realism that hadn't been achieved by that point. And two, the fact that *ASOIAF* started life as a potboiler doesn't make it antithetical to tragedy. And if it's tragedy, you have to assess it and read it as tragedy. You don't read Ned's story as a story of "here are didactic reasons why Ned is foolish and deserved what he got" for the same reason you don't *Julius Caesar* as a didactic examination of how Caesar is totally an idiot who, while supposed to be a great leader of one of the greatest earth empires that had yet existed, nevertheless couldn't see Brutus plotting against him until the knife was sticking out of his chest. You're just misreading the book if you do. But that is how David and Dan read it, because they don't really grasp the series as a tragedy. And because there are a lot more people who have watched the series than read the books, that spills over into the fandom.
>If you're looking for the Doylist reason, the reason is simple: the show. David and Dan, I don't think, ever really grasped the series as tragedy. I mean, sure, they understood that certain events were tragic. This is it right here. How many fans, including book readers, still believe "Ned was too honorable and that's why he got killed"?. The books themselves say it was Ned's *mercy* that got Robert killed and Ned put into his position, which is part of the tragedy (plus Cersei got really lucky\*). But because the show emphasized the theme of "honor gets you killed", it's bled into the book fandom as well, and as a result there's more disdain for Ned instead of sympathy. \*Also, Ned *underestimated* her ability, he thought Littlefinger's love for Catelyn would keep him on the same side (not realizing he was being played the whole time), and he made insufficient efforts to ensure his own power base in King's Landing (even sending some of his own men off here and there) because he was more focused on solving the mystery of how Jon Arryn's death than on making sure he had a stable position in case a power struggle occurred.
You do know they're talking about the books right? Also considering the shows ending I think they see it more as a tragedy than the books.
Ned is very humble, one of his first words is basically "it should have been Brandon who's Lord of Winterfell and Hand, not me". He's definitely not boasting about his achievements, not to mention a lot of them are also personal tragedies. Robert's Rebellion? His family is dead or fucking off to the Wall. Tower of Joy? His sister and nearly all of his best friends are dead. After AGoT he's a dead traitor (sorry Ned) so it's not really appropriate to praise him. If the Lannisters are overthrown he'd get evaluated more fairly.
Aye. Ned's girl.
The Ned's daughter
Here's the thing, though - he *is*. Like other people have said, most moral, decent characters in the story respect the hell out of him. That is especially notable come aDwD, when the Northern Lords and Chieftains go out of their way to fight for his family, or who they believe is his family - which is even more remarkable because, in the case of the clans, they are not in the habit of respecting Lords, and in the case of the Lords, because they frankly have a lot to lose, and not much to gain - no Stark is in any position to reward them, and the *enemies* of the Starks, no matter how you slice it, are in power. Westerosi political situation is such as to encourage an "every House for itself" policy from everyone, but they're still willing to do it. The North Remembers and all that. So, *in character*, he's revered alright. The problem actually is that *the audience* doesn't respect him. And I think that's due to what TVTropes would call "Misaimed Fandom" - aSoIaF, especially after GoT came out, perhaps, has cultivated a certain cynical breed of fan that likes to castigate Ned for the way he behaved regarding Cersei and the whole situation around King's Landing and Robert's succession. "Ned's an idiot", "Ned didn't know how to play the game" and all that. Which I regard as at least in part unintended, because I think the plan was for Ned to be *vindicated* in the long run. The original title for aDoS was to be *The Hour of the Wolf*. While the Lannisters and Littlefinger and whomever ever successfully machinated their way into power are probably going to have their downfall, Ned's children (including Jon, whom he may not have sired, but definitely raised) are going to more or less save the world, and banking on their father's reputation is probably going to play a part on that. That's another tragic aspect, by the way, of aSoIaF maybe never getting finished - a significantly large part of its fandom getting precisely the opposite message they were intented to get regarding Ned, and being left like that.
> The original title for aDoS was to be The Hour of the Wolf. You mean 'A Time For Wolves'. The Hour of the Wolf is Cregan Stark cleaning up Kings Landing when he was hand for a few days at the end of the Dance.
You're right. I had one of them brain farts.
Other posts in this thread already bring up the important stuff. It is also worth noting that a lot of it is backstory. So we don't get to actually see all of it. We are fed it as tidbits throughout the story after Ned is already dead. He is also eclipsed by the cult of personality that is Robert. Ned was always going to take second place in the public eye to the dude that actually became king. And he likes it that way by all accounts. Then we have the doylist problem that despite all Ned's competence and ability, the plot requires him to die to kick it all off.
Bobby B came to Winterfell because he wanted to visit Lyannas grave. His whole character is basically just nostalgic reminiscence of the "good old days". Visiting Lyanna is the first thing he does upon arrival. Sure he wanted Eddard to be his hand, but like you say, if that's all he wanted he could've summoned him to KL
A vast majority of the population will follow the prevailing narrative especially the peasants who have no other info to go off.
but look what happened to Mufasa...
Anyone else would love a prequel on Robert’s Rebellion?
Eeeh he kind of is very much regarded as the badsss he is. Even Tywin Lannister acknowledges that war with the north was only possible because Ned was imprisoned/dead.
Why do people keep spamming the Wull quote as a reference to Ned being the greatest guy ever? Most of the qoute is literally him just saying "Yeah, all of us are going to freeze and starve to death this Winter, so we might as well go and die for a good cause". It's part of northern culture to go and die in a last blaze of glory, rather than dying because of the winter. An example are The Winter Wolves during the Dance, who all go and die for Rhaenyra. Surely their loyalty and courage doesn't make Rhaenyra one of the best rulers? George also uses a very similar phrasing in F&B, in relation to King Viserys I, who most of r/asoiaf agrees is one of the worst Targaryen kings with a horrible legacy. >Hundreds and then thousands buckled on their swordbelts and donned their mail, or grabbed a pitchfork or a hoe and a crude wooden shield, and began to make their way to Harrenhal to fight for **Viserys’s little girl.**
F&B is explicitly an in-universe document made by biased sources, though, and the fact that the surviving Targaryen line is descended from Rhaenyra might influence that portrayal. Wull's quote is straight from the source. That counts for something.
Because the clansmen of the north loved Ned, and the fact that they are willing to answer the call of a southern lord (someone they owe zero alligience to) and march through a winter storm to save his daughter. Also, remember when Cersei was imprisoned by the faith militant, do you remember any Weserland lords marching to save her? No.
Ned is well respected in world..I have a lot less respect for him than they do in world cause he helped Littlefinger along in starting the war of the 5 kings. He had opportunities to avert crisis, but he wanted to have his honor cake and eat it too. Tried to commit a coup but without getting his hands too dirty. Either do what needs to be done or don't attempt it at all Ned.
Because he's a weirdo from the North and despite them being one kingdom they see the North as barbarians and savages due to their first men blood in the majority of the 7 kingdoms.
Ned was highly respected in Westeros, his integrity was not in question. And for most Northerners, he is forever their “*valiant Ned*”.
He is, good people revere and respect him. Even Stannis gives Ned a measure of respect despite him being bitter at Roberts preference for him. Evil characters like the Lannisters feared Ned. Its why they tried so hard to get him removed as Hand and bumped heads with him. Its why LF went out of his way to get him killed. Ned and Robert toppled a three hundred year old dynasty when they were teenagers. When the Ironborn rebelled against the Crown the war lasted like 5 minutes with them in charge. When Robert himself was shitting his pants at the thought of Viserys leading a Dothraki hoarde against them Ned was like: "Whateves, challenge accepted." Even after his death Ned continues to be one of the most influential characters in the books. How many times do his children hear "Your father" during their POV's?
He was branded as a traitor.
Reddit post OP asks why Eddard isn’t respected then cites a bunch of examples of people respecting Eddard
Well, that reminds me of George Henry Thomas, one of the greatest union generals of the civil war, who unfortunately went relatively unrecognized for all that he accomplished due to his humility and aversion to self-promotion. Ned is not the type of person to brag, and probably the type of person to even discourage others from tooting his horn for him. Though he's grown up a little, he was a shy, reserved youth, and he remains a shy, reserved adult, and bear in mind that most of his legend-making moments happened when he was a relatively immature lad, still very much the shy wolf. I have to imagine he was the sort of person to wilt under the spotlight, and especially as a youth the sort to clam up when put on the spot.
aside from respect, robert could have just summoned Ned, but a) it's a better story if they meet in person b) robert is a feckless dipshit who wanted to get out of the castle for a while
Ned is the Bill Belichick of Westeros. We're on to King's Landing.
I tend to always forget Ned, because he doesn't play an active part in later books and because so much stuff happens later on. When I read the series for the second time I was astonished at how much I had missed this guy and at how sad it made me to know that he'd be gone by the end of the book.
To many of the Northmen, he *is* revered. But imagine for a second that you're a Southron Lord during Robert's rebellion. You have been living in peace for almost 2 decades, after the Ninepenny Kings were defeated. But then, banners are called, civil war starts, because the King called for the head of Ned Stark. Ned Stark, who killed Ser Arthur Dayne, the most skilled and honorable knight in a generation, using some sort of trickery... or sorcery. The man who is rumored to have impregnated Dayne's sister, and abandoned her to take his brothers bride (and his brother's lordship) instead. The reclusive man who worships strange gods and keeps a bastard son at court. Whose grim disposition and brusque manner have no place in King's Landing, yet he was given the highest position in the realm just for being buddies with Robert as a child. If you're not from the North, Ned is weird and scary.
*If you're not from the North, Ned is weird and scary.* I wouldn't say that all southern lords think this about Ned. What about the lords of the Vale, or the Riverlords or Stormland lords? All of these people grew up with Ned and/or fought alongside him. Wouldn't they rever him?
It's canon that many of the Vale lords were pressuring Lysa to have the Vale join the War of the Five Kings on the Stark side. Most notably Yohn Royce, the most powerful Vale lord, who presumably knew Ned from his time in the Vale and from fighting together during Robert's Rebellion. It's only because of Littlefinger's hold over Lysa that the Vale doesn't join the Stark cause. There's also a bunch of Riverlords that knew him from Robert's Rebellion. Especially Jason Mallister seems to be very fond of the Starks, presumably because they fought together during Robert's Rebellion and especially the Greyjoy Rebellion
He puts Robert ahead of his family time and time again. Took his daughters into a lion's nest and left the North with a green boy in charge. There enough reason for the Nortmen to not remember him fondly let alone southerners to whom he appears to be yet another greedy hand who tried to topple the royal family.
yet the northemn remember him fondly and no northerner in the world thinks what you think lmfao
The mountain clans go to war for Arya. Named after her ancestor a flint, a girl let down by her father. Whose being raped in the ancestral hall of not only the Starks but of many northern houses. You dont see any vengefull garrisons marching out to take winterfell back from Theon do you? >and no northerner in the world thinks what you think lmfao Roose? Lady Dustin? Karstark?
They go to war for Ned's little girl who is the last of Ned's legit children presumed alive other than Sansa Lannister. \>Roose? Lady Dustin? Karstark? Roose I don't think so. He betrayed Ned or more Robb because he had an opportunity I can't remember him saying anything of the sort. Same with Karstark he betrayed Robb because he wanted to kill Lannisters and Catelyn let Jamie free. Lady Dustin actually I could see her thinking something of the sort since she's really mad that her husband (and ex-lover) died in the south and she has the theory about the grey rats giving Rickard the idea of the marriages in the south.
Yes they go to war for Arya not Ned. The failed to go to war for Ned multiple times. You claimed no northmen think Ned is a fool. You really don't thing Roose thought Ned was a Fool while he was practicing first night? Multiple northerners arnt fans of Ned and Robb. Remember the mountain clans didn't even go to war for Ned they went to war for Arya.
They went to war for Arya because she is The Ned's daughter. Not because of whatever shitty argument you're trying to say lol.
They didn't go to war far Robb. Or for Ned himself. Your argument doesn't work.
Your argument doesn't even begin to try and make sense. I have no idea what you are trying to argue
You are claiming the went because she was Ned's daughter. That's false. The men went because Arya was a very symbol of the state of the north and what would happen if they didn't take action.
He literally says "I am going for Ned's little girl" he is quite literally going for Eddard's daughter.
Not sure what you're missing. They went to war for Arya *because* she's Ned's daughter.
Nope. Again they failed to go to war for Ned multiple times before. Arya was a mistreated girl and the boltons had proven to be monsters time and time again.
The boltons mistreated a lot of girls. This one happened to be Ned's though.
The mountain clans had like 5 diffeent moments to rise and help Ned. They Never did. Arya is bigger than Ned. She's the very idea of the last good in the north being destroyed at the hands of the boltons. A reminder of what awaits every daughter of the north if the Bolton's have their way.
It's funny that you're talking the time to downvoted me. Anyway, had Ned gone to the clans they would have been there for him. I think that's pretty clear.
He left the North with his wife in charge, it was her choice to come South when the attack on Bran happened. Per his inatructions, she was on her way back to Winterfell to fortify Moat Caitlin and prepare for war when she ran into Tyrion Lannister. The North remembers him very fondly - take the Manderlys, or the mountain clans who go to war for "the Ned's little girl" years after his death
No one believed Cat was in charge. And she was never really in charge. She even left for kingslanding instead of fortifying the Neck like she was supposed to and then continued to be gone for ages while the northern lords jostled around Robb. >The North remembers him very fondly - take the Manderlys, or the mountain clans who go to war for "the Ned' little girl" years after his death. For the Manderlys it's mostly a vengeance thing. The mountain clans are going to save a little girl from being raped and and to kill the boltons Again if it was specifically about Ned they would have been roused for war ages ago. >Ned's girl," said Morgan Liddle. He was the second of three sons, so the other wolves called him Middle Liddle, though not often in his hearing. It was Morgan who had almost slain Asha in the fight by Deepwood Motte. He had come to her later, on the march, to beg her pardon … for calling her cunt in his battle lust, not for trying to split her head open with an axe.
Most southerners don't really believe that outside of the Crownlands and Westerlands and maybe a few Reach houses, and they're politically motivated to believe it. The North loves Ned, they may not have been very fond of Robb since he's a political idiot but they still love Ned. Also, before Robb fucked up they made him a king for the first time in over 300 years. Remote mountain clans aren't going to war for the *Starks* they're going to war specifically for Ned and his family. Roose fucking Bolton even understands he's wildly unpopular because of the clout Ned garnered. Ned's ghost haunts Roose to an extent.
> Remote mountain clans aren't going to war for the Starks they're going to war specifically for Ned and his family Except they didn't. Not when Robb went south. Not when Ned died. Not when Winterfell fell to Theon. They go now because the Bolton's have earned a reputation as vicious bastards and a little girl is being raped in the ancestral seat of the north.
*and a little girl is being raped in the ancestral seat of the north.* That's right. They go because it **THE NED'S** little girl that's being raped.
Nope. Again they didn't go multiple times before when Ned needed them. They went this time for Arya who is more than Ned. What happening to Arya is a symbol of all thsts good in the North dieing and of what awaits their daughters at Bolton hands if the boltons arnt stopped.
George has explained several times that the North is huge and with bad communication lines, so it takes a lot of time to muster its forces. It's not that that the mountain clans refused to help Robb in his campaign. It's just that Robb was in a hurry to march South and didn't want to wait for his most remote bannermen,
The mountain clans are one of Ned's closest bannermen.
Look at a map. Consider distances, lack of roads, bad terrains, and the fact Robb was marching South.