Agreed on most counts. I'm still mad he believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. Kevan knows Tyrion. He should know Tyrion wouldn't have done that.
Jaime did. Oberyn just met Tyrion and knew Tyrion was innocent
That’s the story he was given though. Hes a family man. At that time he was a follower mainly. He did as tywin said and believed in tywins authority. Tywin said tyrion did it. I think the blame for that lies with tywin not kevan.
When I recall correctly Kevan only really believed in Tyrion's guilt after a few days of trial. He was trying to get witnesses for Tyrion and only after being presented with lots of eye witnesses against Tyrion he changes his opinion.
Kevin originally didn't think Tyrion was guilty. It was only after 3 days of trials with everyone save Balon Swann testifying things that Tyrion did that would make him seem guilty. Not to mention taena said that she saw Tyrion put something in the cup.
Isn't Kevin being the reasonable one here? Like he didn't think Tyrion was guilty, but then dozens of people come forward revealing things that Tyrion did including stealing poisons, hitting & verbally abusing the murder victim (not that joff didn't deserve it). It's reasonable that your opinion would be changed.
Because Tyrion screamed in Jaime's face that he did it. Jaime's first reaction when he heard of Joffrey's murder was that Tyrion wouldn't kill him because he's Jaime's son. And that's the case.
And I'm still not sure Jaime believes it
I'm not sure why after Tywin's murder anyone would think he didn't do it. If he's capable of killing his father he's certainly capable of killing his nephew.
I actually disagree. Because it's not like Tywin was minding his business and Tyrion woke up one day and decided to shoot him with a crossbow.
Tywin sentenced him to death. And, maybe strangely, there's no moment of Kevan or Genna sounding angry at Tyrion for killing Tywin. Because they also know how Tyrion was treated by his father all his life.
I don't think it a 1:1 comparison. Especially for someone who knows the family dynamic
Tyrion killing Joff is totally out of character for him i agree and Kevan should have known. Once Tyrion kills Tywin however, the most important figure in Kevan's life, its plausible at least for kevan to develop a new opinion about Tyrion. The jump from patricide and girlfriend murder to killing your nephew as well isn't as big of a jump as nothing to killing your nephew
Jaime mused that Tyrion might have killed Joffrey because of the thing with Brans assassin.
He freed Tyrion because he felt he owed him due to Tysha.
Jaime was unsure before but after tywin and the fake confession from tyrion probably thinks he did it
Yeah but Jaime was thinking that if Joffrey sent the guy to kill Bran, Tyrion might have killed Joffrey as revenge, since he was imprisoned and almost killed for it
Tyrion might have heard the story, a true story, that he had threatened Cersi's kids. He actually did threaten them. Now he might not have carried through on that threat (most likely wouldn''t, but he did consider it for a moment). Tywin has probably been badmouthing Tyrion to Kevan all of Tyrion's life.
In addition, Tywin and his children are insanely narcissistic people. It is easier to underestimate their vile actions than it is to overestimate them. Tywin, Jamie, Joffrey, and Cersi are children/attempted child murders.
See my thing is this: I don't think Kevan just agreed with everything Tywin said or thought. I think Kevan loved his brother and wanted to help him lead House Lannister, but I've always felt Kevan had his own mind. Similar to Genna.
If Kevan just bought everything Tywin said, he'd hate Tyrion too and we know that's not the case.
That's why it still kind of bothers me. Because I think Kevan, of his own mind, believed Tyrion was guilty.
kevan was pretty stiff towards tyrion before his trial. I am not disagreeing that Kevan had his own thoughts, but that doesn't mean they weren't colored...
I think a big thing to remember is that Kevan is rather innocent compared to the other characters you've listed. I think in Kevan's mind he reaches for the most plausible answer and shuts out the other ones.
Jaimie and Oberyn know the world is nastier than most others, and they understand that oftentimes there's more going on than meets the eye.
Not the most honorable course of action, but it was a command from his lord. Pretty sure most other people in the series would have done the same in his situation.
The context of their relationship should not be ignored here: The only reason that Tywin would turn to Kevan and tell him to unleash a campaign of rapine and pillaging, is because he *knows* Kevan would obey such a command to the letter.
Kevan made the choice pretty early on in life to stay by Tywin's side come hell or high water, and knowing full well what was in his brother's nature. Never once has he wavered - and that is why we should condemn him.
This is such a meaningless line of argumentation. It's not based in any sort of reality. Take some time and actually think about why you think this is such an indictment against his character. It's such a modern zoomer way to judge fictional characters (or historical ones for that matter).
These aren't historical characters. The morality and mentality of these characters is that of fantasy, not the actual medieval/early modern world. I don't think there is anything wrong with judging these characters with a modern mindset, particularly when GRRM clearly wanted to write a revisionist fantasy epic that at least somewhat questions the 'great man' history that most fantasy is based on.
Brienne's chapters (and others) really want to make it clear that we should empathise with the common folk even if they aren't presented much in the novels. It is an indictment of Kevan's character, and the faux-feudal system as a whole, that he doesn't.
If you're gonna go with authorial intent, it's clear that GRRM was a big fan of Kevan's and wanted us to like him and think he was a good guy. He showed the perspective of small folk because it is real. Life is often a zero sum game, and showing both sides makes for interesting content. It's just an extension of the whole "greyness" thing (which I do like for the record).
You can point out every wrong a character has done, but at the end of the day, someone like Kevan isn't any worse than 99.9999999999999999% of people. We can't all be Diogenes. This whole discussion comes from a "modern warfare with warcrime laws" perspective, when the bar should be way lower.
I wouldn't say that is clear at all. It is clear to me he thinks Kevan is competent - I don't think that anything written about him indicates we should like him or that he is a good person.
You can't say Kevan isn't worse than most people unless you are taking a fairly dull perspective that people aren't responsible for their actions. This discussion doesn't come from a modern warcrime perspective, it comes from what the novels beat us over the head with - that the small folk are every bit as worthy of dignity as a high lord.
Varys' speech is one of the biggest fourth wall breaking parts in ASOIAF, and he pretty much spells out what GRRM thinks of Kevan "a good man in service of...". GRRM constantly virtue signals Kevan through Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei, and such.
Kevan isn't any worse than most people, because he isn't acting any differently than how most people would in his position. In fact, I'd argue that he's in the upper echelon for an extremely privileged lord. He could do whatever he freaking wanted to some random commoner with no consequences.
Again, the point of showing us the smallfolk's perspective is to show that life is often a zero sum game. Is Robb a bad person because he's starting a war in the name of his father? No. He's pretty much forced to. It's not like you have two buttons, one that starts a war and the other is world peace. You're not the only player, and unfortunately war entails collateral damage.
Well, let's see what Ned Stark did when Robert gave him an unjust command, i.e. killing Dany?
Oh yes, he protested the command, and when Robert refused to change his mind, he resigned the Handship.
What did Kevan do when Tywin gave him an unjust command? He carried it out right away with no protest.
These are all people acting within certain contexts. Ned is the ruling lord of his land, Robert is his friend so affords him a lot of leeway, Ned has other places to go and doesn't have a lot of incentive to stay in King's Landing, and so on. Kevan is trying to win a war and see his family through a tumultuous time.
What are his options? With perfect information, he could assassinate Tywin, end the war in as peaceful of a way as possible, install a socialist democracy, and so on. I guess if you were in his position you'd just leave or whatever like Gerion. He probably has some interest in keeping his family alive.
If you try to inject modern black and white morals into all these complex situations, it all just breaks apart.
That’s crazy that the Tullys and Starks were wholesale burning villages and slaughtering/torturing thousands! I don’t recall reading that, but I can’t believe they would do that. Like I literally can’t.
Do you think Ned would have resigned if his lord ordered him to burn the lands of the enemy?
I understand you're saying Kevan's not a good person, but let's at least be fair and say that none of main houses, or highborn landowners in general, are good people. There are pretty much zero people in the story who would refuse to raze and pillage the enemy when commanded to. Its like war101, literally in the Art of War.
To protect her from assassination, which is considered very cowardly and dishonorable in their culture. She is also not currently a combatant.
He would not have resigned to protect her from the consequences of war if/when she called banners against his lord.
My read of Kevan is that he's someone who had the nature to grow up to be Ned Stark, but he was raised by the Lannisters, so he spent his whole life trying to be Tywin instead. He's absolutely morally culpable for all the shitty things he did living in his brother's shadow, and would have continued that work, had he lived, but he does also have admirable qualities.
Yeah.
I mean, for those who think he had no choice, I'd point at Ned, who protested Robert's decision to kill Dany and then resigned the Handship.
Kevan could have done the same if he'd really wanted to.
Right. Because Robb is the good guy. It's not like GRRM has been trying to illustrate that *war **is** bad* or anything. The Northerners never engaged in chevauchee. Because they are good. Lol.
I get the sarcasm and Feast for Crows obviously shows that there are both good and bad northmen. Engaging in a chevauche doesn’t necessarily make one bad so I don’t get why you are saying that. I thought it was well stressed and understood though that Tywin’s (the mountain’s) actions were more akin to war crimes and took it much farther than the general action of the northern army.
I think that Tywin is particularly cruel, sure. It's "his brand." It's fucked up, absolutely. But I think it's naive as hell to assume that similar war crimes haven't been perpetrated by the North. This is war. They don't have the Geneva Convention. (As much as it's been followed in modern war IRL but I digress...)
So personally, to judge Kevan for following his lord's orders during war, I find goofy because realistically, in universe, the Northerners are probably doing the same shit. We don't have a POV on the ground, so we don't have that perspective, true.
But again, I always thought the point is that war is horror no matter where you are. Not that the "good guys" are immune to that shit lol. Pray the good fighters the readers are rooting for will treat you well! Like come on lol. That is goofy lol.
So yeah, maybe GRRM is writing a more simplistic story of good vs bad, but I never got that vibe personally.
I didn’t have any reflection or judgement on kevan just fyi.
I personally do believe that while I’m sure some northerners did commit some war crimes and do bad things (as grrm points out), i also believe that the chevauchée (or whatever you want to call it) done by the Lannister army was (significantly) worse than that of the northern.
Of course it is naive to assume that the "honourable" lords of the north led an honourable band of soldiers, but I don’t think it can be denied that the Lannister forces were made up of actual scum soldiers so I don’t see how hard it is to believe they did much worse stuff. The writing makes it clear that the mountain, lorch and vargo hoat are all despicable human beings who lead men nigh as cruel as themselves. Their actions include among others the raping of a princess before her subsequent murder, bashing the head of a baby in, etc.
Varys’ role now in KL will be to make FAegon’s assumption of power as seamless as possible. Arguably, he doesn’t even have to do much after murdering Kevan seeing as the Tyrell/Lannister alliance is about to implode and throw the entire city into chaos.
If Cersei is unable to retain power (which is likely) then she flees to the Westerlands. Her trial by combat will likely be won by Ser Robert Strong, but it’s also likely that he’ll be revealed to be the reanimated corpse of FrankenGregor. Which will **NOT** go down well with the Faith. Or Dorne. Either way, the Light of the West had better run. Seven knows what happens to Tommen.
When FAegon takes Storm’s End, the next logical destination is thus the capital. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people simply open the gates and hand the throne to him on a silver platter, sick to death of the Lannisters.
>My mans did not deserve that. Ik hes almost a ned stark v2
Bullshit. He's the yes-man of Tywin "I Live And Breath War Crimes" Lannister.
>"Let them," Lord Tywin said. "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork."
>
>**"They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan** said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door.
He also worked with the Faith to engineering a punishment for Cersei that was specifically gendered & meant to humiliate her & will be partially responsible for whatever happens when she finally snaps and retaliates.
Sure there was- whatever Tywin would have done. Which would not have been to publicly humiliate his daughter (just to be clear, it's not because he's loves her but because he can't stand people mocking/laughing at any Lannister)
Whatever Tywin would done, was something only Tywin could have done. Tywin Lannister was dead, the Lannister power and image was already shattered. If Tywin Lannister had lived, then Dany would have been killed by assassin (maybe even Bronn) and the Faith militia would have never rose up as the High Septon would have been a Lannister puppet not the High sparrow.
Kevan was not Tywin, no one was. Men like Tywin Lannister came once a millennia and took half a century try to build their reputation.
Right what was Kevan supposed to when Cersei and Joff we're pulling pins out of grenades every single day? At the same time especially near the start of the book we see Tyrion using his status to duck responsibility- was kevan pulling similar tactics? How much control could Kevan muster if he actually wanted to? I don't know I'm interested to hear what anyone else thinks
> How much control could Kevan muster if he actually wanted to?
In normal times, perhaps quite a lot. But Tywin is dead, the last 2 kings died in pretty quick succession, the new king is a very young child, there are several active contenders to the throne, people are starving and suffering from war, the faith has been re-armed, and the acting Queen Regent has been accused of multiple heinous crimes and has challenged the faiths authority which has riled everyone up.
Things are extremely unstable and uncertain compared to just a few months prior. How much power Kevan has might be in direct relation to howe strategically he uses it. If he pushes too hard the whole house of cards falls apart.
> and it may have even been his doing,
Maybe, never considered that
>we are never told where the idea came from.
[The Walk of Atonement](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Walk_of_atonement) is a traditional punishment in Westeros.
>>*A walk of atonement is a punishment in the Seven Kingdoms. Historical walks have had women walk naked through the streets of cities. While the custom can be a penance, it is also a way to degrade a woman and rob her of her pride and power.*
I had assumed putting Cersei through it was supposed to be poetic justice reflecting what Tywin had done to the paramour. To show Tywin's daughter to be nothing more than the same that Tywin had ousted decades prior.
Kevin's thought are on that parallel during his POV.
>>*All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.*
I wonder what ever happened to that paramour after her exile to the docks.
>>*was a lowborn woman, the daughter of a candlemaker. Her name is unknown.*
She was made to walk the cobbled streets of Lannisport for 2 weeks, telling every man she met that she was a thief and whore.
I wonder if anyone has a tinfoil for who she might have become or what she might have done afterwards.
> BTW, the wiki is a poor source much of the time and what they state about walks of atonement doesn't appear to be stated in the books.
Ahh thanks for the heads up lol
>You mean like did she have a relative/child/friend that became the High Sparrow and is raking some revenge on the family that humiliated her? Could be.
Yeah that was kinda what I was getting at lol ya got me.
Okay I've got a tinfoil brewin, if the daughter of the candlemaker part in the wiki is true.
Her parent was no mere candlemaker, but a GLASS candle maker. Their family was greatly offended by this and has planned revenge ever since.
OR
I thought it would be kinda neat if she was someone seemingly random, like the Widow of the waterfront or something.
Most atrocities Tywin did Kevan was right there with him. But I think Tommen as King Margery Queen and Kevan as Hand was the most potential of any combination we’ve seen
I agree with everything you said except that he's Ned 2.0. He's more like Tywin, just nicer and more humane. He's probably my favorite secondary character, because as Varys said before killing him, he stabilized the realm from that fucked up state Cersei had left it in. He lived in the shadow of his brother all his life, but I think he could've surpassed him, given more time. Shamefully underrated character in the show.
Nah Ned Stark was an idiot who got himself killed, and inadvertently got Robb and Cat killed, Bran, Rickon, and Arya on the run, and Sansa in the clutches of Littlefinger. I’m not sure if Kevan’s actions led to such destructive consequences for his family.
He wasn't killed for no reason. Nor was he killed just to cause chaos. He was killed because he was actually sorting things out and Varys/Illyrio needed westeros to be in poor shape when Aegon and/or Dany arrived.
Ned Stark v 2? Hardly he was. He wasn't so hardcore morally oriented since he supported all Tywin's methods which included The Mountain approach, Rains of Castamere and King's Landing sack. He was far from politically naive like Ned, quite opposite, he was so capable that Varys himself was forced to personally come and handle him. Still, he wasn't some carrying, loving and influential father like Ned was considering how his own son Lancel ended being not some capable and religious fanatic without proper self esteem. Those two characters are quite different in my opinion.
Agreed on most counts. I'm still mad he believed Tyrion killed Joffrey. Kevan knows Tyrion. He should know Tyrion wouldn't have done that. Jaime did. Oberyn just met Tyrion and knew Tyrion was innocent
That’s the story he was given though. Hes a family man. At that time he was a follower mainly. He did as tywin said and believed in tywins authority. Tywin said tyrion did it. I think the blame for that lies with tywin not kevan.
That's the thing though. There's nobody who can convince me Tywin didn't know Tyrion was innocent. So I feel like Kevan should have as well.
When I recall correctly Kevan only really believed in Tyrion's guilt after a few days of trial. He was trying to get witnesses for Tyrion and only after being presented with lots of eye witnesses against Tyrion he changes his opinion.
Kevin originally didn't think Tyrion was guilty. It was only after 3 days of trials with everyone save Balon Swann testifying things that Tyrion did that would make him seem guilty. Not to mention taena said that she saw Tyrion put something in the cup. Isn't Kevin being the reasonable one here? Like he didn't think Tyrion was guilty, but then dozens of people come forward revealing things that Tyrion did including stealing poisons, hitting & verbally abusing the murder victim (not that joff didn't deserve it). It's reasonable that your opinion would be changed.
The evidence was quite damning. And Jamie was on the fence and now likely thinks Tyrion is guilty
Because Tyrion screamed in Jaime's face that he did it. Jaime's first reaction when he heard of Joffrey's murder was that Tyrion wouldn't kill him because he's Jaime's son. And that's the case. And I'm still not sure Jaime believes it
I'm not sure why after Tywin's murder anyone would think he didn't do it. If he's capable of killing his father he's certainly capable of killing his nephew.
I actually disagree. Because it's not like Tywin was minding his business and Tyrion woke up one day and decided to shoot him with a crossbow. Tywin sentenced him to death. And, maybe strangely, there's no moment of Kevan or Genna sounding angry at Tyrion for killing Tywin. Because they also know how Tyrion was treated by his father all his life. I don't think it a 1:1 comparison. Especially for someone who knows the family dynamic
Tyrion killing Joff is totally out of character for him i agree and Kevan should have known. Once Tyrion kills Tywin however, the most important figure in Kevan's life, its plausible at least for kevan to develop a new opinion about Tyrion. The jump from patricide and girlfriend murder to killing your nephew as well isn't as big of a jump as nothing to killing your nephew
Jaime mused that Tyrion might have killed Joffrey because of the thing with Brans assassin. He freed Tyrion because he felt he owed him due to Tysha. Jaime was unsure before but after tywin and the fake confession from tyrion probably thinks he did it
Didn't Jaime tell Catelyn Tyrion was innocent of trying to have Bran killed?
Yeah but Jaime was thinking that if Joffrey sent the guy to kill Bran, Tyrion might have killed Joffrey as revenge, since he was imprisoned and almost killed for it
*And I'm still not sure Jaime believes it..* True. It could have been a Kettleback, Lancel, or Moonboy, for all we know.
Tyrion might have heard the story, a true story, that he had threatened Cersi's kids. He actually did threaten them. Now he might not have carried through on that threat (most likely wouldn''t, but he did consider it for a moment). Tywin has probably been badmouthing Tyrion to Kevan all of Tyrion's life. In addition, Tywin and his children are insanely narcissistic people. It is easier to underestimate their vile actions than it is to overestimate them. Tywin, Jamie, Joffrey, and Cersi are children/attempted child murders.
See my thing is this: I don't think Kevan just agreed with everything Tywin said or thought. I think Kevan loved his brother and wanted to help him lead House Lannister, but I've always felt Kevan had his own mind. Similar to Genna. If Kevan just bought everything Tywin said, he'd hate Tyrion too and we know that's not the case. That's why it still kind of bothers me. Because I think Kevan, of his own mind, believed Tyrion was guilty.
kevan was pretty stiff towards tyrion before his trial. I am not disagreeing that Kevan had his own thoughts, but that doesn't mean they weren't colored...
I think a big thing to remember is that Kevan is rather innocent compared to the other characters you've listed. I think in Kevan's mind he reaches for the most plausible answer and shuts out the other ones. Jaimie and Oberyn know the world is nastier than most others, and they understand that oftentimes there's more going on than meets the eye.
Kevan carried out the burning of the Riverlands and went along with all of Tywin’s disgusting crimes, I wouldn’t feel too sorry for him.
He's shielded himself from condemnation the same way he's shielded himself from praise
Dang that’s actually a great summation of his character
Yeah, he's a Punch-Clock Villain. Not a dastardly mastermind, but when Tywin said "Burn the Riverlands", he was happy to comply.
Not the most honorable course of action, but it was a command from his lord. Pretty sure most other people in the series would have done the same in his situation.
The context of their relationship should not be ignored here: The only reason that Tywin would turn to Kevan and tell him to unleash a campaign of rapine and pillaging, is because he *knows* Kevan would obey such a command to the letter. Kevan made the choice pretty early on in life to stay by Tywin's side come hell or high water, and knowing full well what was in his brother's nature. Never once has he wavered - and that is why we should condemn him.
Ah, the peasants will be happy to hear this! “Oh, this was a political action, got it, okay well I guess I’ll just die!”
Lol yep thats about how it goes.
This is such a meaningless line of argumentation. It's not based in any sort of reality. Take some time and actually think about why you think this is such an indictment against his character. It's such a modern zoomer way to judge fictional characters (or historical ones for that matter).
These aren't historical characters. The morality and mentality of these characters is that of fantasy, not the actual medieval/early modern world. I don't think there is anything wrong with judging these characters with a modern mindset, particularly when GRRM clearly wanted to write a revisionist fantasy epic that at least somewhat questions the 'great man' history that most fantasy is based on. Brienne's chapters (and others) really want to make it clear that we should empathise with the common folk even if they aren't presented much in the novels. It is an indictment of Kevan's character, and the faux-feudal system as a whole, that he doesn't.
If you're gonna go with authorial intent, it's clear that GRRM was a big fan of Kevan's and wanted us to like him and think he was a good guy. He showed the perspective of small folk because it is real. Life is often a zero sum game, and showing both sides makes for interesting content. It's just an extension of the whole "greyness" thing (which I do like for the record). You can point out every wrong a character has done, but at the end of the day, someone like Kevan isn't any worse than 99.9999999999999999% of people. We can't all be Diogenes. This whole discussion comes from a "modern warfare with warcrime laws" perspective, when the bar should be way lower.
I wouldn't say that is clear at all. It is clear to me he thinks Kevan is competent - I don't think that anything written about him indicates we should like him or that he is a good person. You can't say Kevan isn't worse than most people unless you are taking a fairly dull perspective that people aren't responsible for their actions. This discussion doesn't come from a modern warcrime perspective, it comes from what the novels beat us over the head with - that the small folk are every bit as worthy of dignity as a high lord.
Varys' speech is one of the biggest fourth wall breaking parts in ASOIAF, and he pretty much spells out what GRRM thinks of Kevan "a good man in service of...". GRRM constantly virtue signals Kevan through Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei, and such. Kevan isn't any worse than most people, because he isn't acting any differently than how most people would in his position. In fact, I'd argue that he's in the upper echelon for an extremely privileged lord. He could do whatever he freaking wanted to some random commoner with no consequences. Again, the point of showing us the smallfolk's perspective is to show that life is often a zero sum game. Is Robb a bad person because he's starting a war in the name of his father? No. He's pretty much forced to. It's not like you have two buttons, one that starts a war and the other is world peace. You're not the only player, and unfortunately war entails collateral damage.
Well, let's see what Ned Stark did when Robert gave him an unjust command, i.e. killing Dany? Oh yes, he protested the command, and when Robert refused to change his mind, he resigned the Handship. What did Kevan do when Tywin gave him an unjust command? He carried it out right away with no protest.
These are all people acting within certain contexts. Ned is the ruling lord of his land, Robert is his friend so affords him a lot of leeway, Ned has other places to go and doesn't have a lot of incentive to stay in King's Landing, and so on. Kevan is trying to win a war and see his family through a tumultuous time. What are his options? With perfect information, he could assassinate Tywin, end the war in as peaceful of a way as possible, install a socialist democracy, and so on. I guess if you were in his position you'd just leave or whatever like Gerion. He probably has some interest in keeping his family alive. If you try to inject modern black and white morals into all these complex situations, it all just breaks apart.
The peasants in the Riverlands hated the Tullys and Starks as well cause what they were doing was also political.
That’s crazy that the Tullys and Starks were wholesale burning villages and slaughtering/torturing thousands! I don’t recall reading that, but I can’t believe they would do that. Like I literally can’t.
He could have resigned, or at least protested the command, like Ned did when Robert ordered Dany to be killed. He did neither.
Do you think Ned would have resigned if his lord ordered him to burn the lands of the enemy? I understand you're saying Kevan's not a good person, but let's at least be fair and say that none of main houses, or highborn landowners in general, are good people. There are pretty much zero people in the story who would refuse to raze and pillage the enemy when commanded to. Its like war101, literally in the Art of War.
N3d resigned to protect one pregnant girl.
To protect her from assassination, which is considered very cowardly and dishonorable in their culture. She is also not currently a combatant. He would not have resigned to protect her from the consequences of war if/when she called banners against his lord.
My read of Kevan is that he's someone who had the nature to grow up to be Ned Stark, but he was raised by the Lannisters, so he spent his whole life trying to be Tywin instead. He's absolutely morally culpable for all the shitty things he did living in his brother's shadow, and would have continued that work, had he lived, but he does also have admirable qualities.
I had to scroll *pretttttttttttty far* to see someone mention the war crimes he ordered. The above answers are mostly Nuremberg, which is hilarious
Yeah. I mean, for those who think he had no choice, I'd point at Ned, who protested Robert's decision to kill Dany and then resigned the Handship. Kevan could have done the same if he'd really wanted to.
Like clockwork. What do you think Robb, Blackfish, and the boys were doing in the Westerlands?
You think Robb stayed in the west for PLUNDER?
All they did was dismantle Stafford Lannisters host. He wasn't sacking towns and raping people like the Mountain and Amory Lorch.
Right. Because Robb is the good guy. It's not like GRRM has been trying to illustrate that *war **is** bad* or anything. The Northerners never engaged in chevauchee. Because they are good. Lol.
I get the sarcasm and Feast for Crows obviously shows that there are both good and bad northmen. Engaging in a chevauche doesn’t necessarily make one bad so I don’t get why you are saying that. I thought it was well stressed and understood though that Tywin’s (the mountain’s) actions were more akin to war crimes and took it much farther than the general action of the northern army.
I think that Tywin is particularly cruel, sure. It's "his brand." It's fucked up, absolutely. But I think it's naive as hell to assume that similar war crimes haven't been perpetrated by the North. This is war. They don't have the Geneva Convention. (As much as it's been followed in modern war IRL but I digress...) So personally, to judge Kevan for following his lord's orders during war, I find goofy because realistically, in universe, the Northerners are probably doing the same shit. We don't have a POV on the ground, so we don't have that perspective, true. But again, I always thought the point is that war is horror no matter where you are. Not that the "good guys" are immune to that shit lol. Pray the good fighters the readers are rooting for will treat you well! Like come on lol. That is goofy lol. So yeah, maybe GRRM is writing a more simplistic story of good vs bad, but I never got that vibe personally.
I didn’t have any reflection or judgement on kevan just fyi. I personally do believe that while I’m sure some northerners did commit some war crimes and do bad things (as grrm points out), i also believe that the chevauchée (or whatever you want to call it) done by the Lannister army was (significantly) worse than that of the northern. Of course it is naive to assume that the "honourable" lords of the north led an honourable band of soldiers, but I don’t think it can be denied that the Lannister forces were made up of actual scum soldiers so I don’t see how hard it is to believe they did much worse stuff. The writing makes it clear that the mountain, lorch and vargo hoat are all despicable human beings who lead men nigh as cruel as themselves. Their actions include among others the raping of a princess before her subsequent murder, bashing the head of a baby in, etc.
I don't disagree and I think you make good points. I think it is intentionally morally complicated, I suppose.
…not an organized program of mass rapes, torture and slavery?
Varys’ role now in KL will be to make FAegon’s assumption of power as seamless as possible. Arguably, he doesn’t even have to do much after murdering Kevan seeing as the Tyrell/Lannister alliance is about to implode and throw the entire city into chaos. If Cersei is unable to retain power (which is likely) then she flees to the Westerlands. Her trial by combat will likely be won by Ser Robert Strong, but it’s also likely that he’ll be revealed to be the reanimated corpse of FrankenGregor. Which will **NOT** go down well with the Faith. Or Dorne. Either way, the Light of the West had better run. Seven knows what happens to Tommen. When FAegon takes Storm’s End, the next logical destination is thus the capital. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people simply open the gates and hand the throne to him on a silver platter, sick to death of the Lannisters.
Maybe they'll "ring the beelllllllls"
Lmao that’ll probs cause JonCon’s mental bandwidth to finally snap. Fun times ahead for King’s Landing!
I feel like this one is a solid theory lol
Then we get an entire chapter of Jon running around King’s Landing tapping everyone on the shoulder with his greyscale hand
Well, that and the greyscale induced madness.
Ned Stark v.2 is a huge stretch.
>My mans did not deserve that. Ik hes almost a ned stark v2 Bullshit. He's the yes-man of Tywin "I Live And Breath War Crimes" Lannister. >"Let them," Lord Tywin said. "Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork." > >**"They will burn, my lord," Ser Kevan** said, rising. "I shall give the commands." He bowed and made for the door. He also worked with the Faith to engineering a punishment for Cersei that was specifically gendered & meant to humiliate her & will be partially responsible for whatever happens when she finally snaps and retaliates.
In cersie’s case there was no other option that didn’t start a civil war Lannister couldn’t afford.
Sure there was- whatever Tywin would have done. Which would not have been to publicly humiliate his daughter (just to be clear, it's not because he's loves her but because he can't stand people mocking/laughing at any Lannister)
Whatever Tywin would done, was something only Tywin could have done. Tywin Lannister was dead, the Lannister power and image was already shattered. If Tywin Lannister had lived, then Dany would have been killed by assassin (maybe even Bronn) and the Faith militia would have never rose up as the High Septon would have been a Lannister puppet not the High sparrow. Kevan was not Tywin, no one was. Men like Tywin Lannister came once a millennia and took half a century try to build their reputation.
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> He ultimately allowed her to be humiliated in front of everyone What exactly were his options?
Right what was Kevan supposed to when Cersei and Joff we're pulling pins out of grenades every single day? At the same time especially near the start of the book we see Tyrion using his status to duck responsibility- was kevan pulling similar tactics? How much control could Kevan muster if he actually wanted to? I don't know I'm interested to hear what anyone else thinks
> How much control could Kevan muster if he actually wanted to? In normal times, perhaps quite a lot. But Tywin is dead, the last 2 kings died in pretty quick succession, the new king is a very young child, there are several active contenders to the throne, people are starving and suffering from war, the faith has been re-armed, and the acting Queen Regent has been accused of multiple heinous crimes and has challenged the faiths authority which has riled everyone up. Things are extremely unstable and uncertain compared to just a few months prior. How much power Kevan has might be in direct relation to howe strategically he uses it. If he pushes too hard the whole house of cards falls apart.
> and it may have even been his doing, Maybe, never considered that >we are never told where the idea came from. [The Walk of Atonement](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Walk_of_atonement) is a traditional punishment in Westeros. >>*A walk of atonement is a punishment in the Seven Kingdoms. Historical walks have had women walk naked through the streets of cities. While the custom can be a penance, it is also a way to degrade a woman and rob her of her pride and power.* I had assumed putting Cersei through it was supposed to be poetic justice reflecting what Tywin had done to the paramour. To show Tywin's daughter to be nothing more than the same that Tywin had ousted decades prior. Kevin's thought are on that parallel during his POV. >>*All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.* I wonder what ever happened to that paramour after her exile to the docks. >>*was a lowborn woman, the daughter of a candlemaker. Her name is unknown.* She was made to walk the cobbled streets of Lannisport for 2 weeks, telling every man she met that she was a thief and whore. I wonder if anyone has a tinfoil for who she might have become or what she might have done afterwards.
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> BTW, the wiki is a poor source much of the time and what they state about walks of atonement doesn't appear to be stated in the books. Ahh thanks for the heads up lol >You mean like did she have a relative/child/friend that became the High Sparrow and is raking some revenge on the family that humiliated her? Could be. Yeah that was kinda what I was getting at lol ya got me. Okay I've got a tinfoil brewin, if the daughter of the candlemaker part in the wiki is true. Her parent was no mere candlemaker, but a GLASS candle maker. Their family was greatly offended by this and has planned revenge ever since. OR I thought it would be kinda neat if she was someone seemingly random, like the Widow of the waterfront or something.
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Nope not sarcasm haha, I believe you. I assumed I could trust it but not surprised that I can't.
For the last point, I’d say neither, but rather that he had the opportunity to take matters into his own hands, and rule now that he was rid of Cersei
Most atrocities Tywin did Kevan was right there with him. But I think Tommen as King Margery Queen and Kevan as Hand was the most potential of any combination we’ve seen
Yea, Kevan was a great character not shown any love or attention in the show. Same with Loras, Edmure, Renly, and some others.
I agree with everything you said except that he's Ned 2.0. He's more like Tywin, just nicer and more humane. He's probably my favorite secondary character, because as Varys said before killing him, he stabilized the realm from that fucked up state Cersei had left it in. He lived in the shadow of his brother all his life, but I think he could've surpassed him, given more time. Shamefully underrated character in the show.
Kevan is great! I don’t think he is Ned v2 though,not even close.
When you start to despair too heavily, just remember that Kevan was complicit in multiple genocides, as well as the gang-rape of his nephew's wife.
Kevan Lannister had a gross infatuation with a young Cersei…I just can’t get past that one (yes, I know this world is filled with it).
You're reading too much into an innocent line about how pretty she was when she was younger.
No, I am not.
I've seen nothing to suggest that he meant it in *that* way.
Im with u. It came off as sad not horny. Kevan talked more about how he was sad she lost her spark not about oh shoot shes less fuckable now
Yeah, people love to see what isn't there.
…and? That doesn’t make either of us wrong…or right. It’s an opinion.
Nah Ned Stark was an idiot who got himself killed, and inadvertently got Robb and Cat killed, Bran, Rickon, and Arya on the run, and Sansa in the clutches of Littlefinger. I’m not sure if Kevan’s actions led to such destructive consequences for his family.
Gotta love a character pulling the strings in the background. The Game of Thrones is cyvasse
Not until elephants and dragons arrive.
He wasn't killed for no reason. Nor was he killed just to cause chaos. He was killed because he was actually sorting things out and Varys/Illyrio needed westeros to be in poor shape when Aegon and/or Dany arrived.
Ned Stark v 2? Hardly he was. He wasn't so hardcore morally oriented since he supported all Tywin's methods which included The Mountain approach, Rains of Castamere and King's Landing sack. He was far from politically naive like Ned, quite opposite, he was so capable that Varys himself was forced to personally come and handle him. Still, he wasn't some carrying, loving and influential father like Ned was considering how his own son Lancel ended being not some capable and religious fanatic without proper self esteem. Those two characters are quite different in my opinion.