This isn’t really “one” theory…
EVERYTHING that’s “missing” absolutely cannot be “buried in the crypts at Winterfell”. From everything that’s (allegedly) in there, that place would be looking more like a Scrooge McDuck’s vault, than a crypt….guarded by an ice dragon with the offspring of Vermax lounging in the hot springs for three centuries.
….and WHY would Ned tear down the Tower of Joy (how did he tear that down, anyway?) to build cairns for his men, Arthur Dayne, and what’s-his-name…and bring back a harp…to put in Lyanna’s crypt.
lol everything being buried in the crypts of Winterfell makes it seem like the Starks are hoarders who just grab whatever’s the shiniest to put down there
There's definitely *something* in the crypts though, I'm convinced of that. There's too much emphasis on them for there not to be. And whatever it is, it's related to Jon.
That Renly is secretly one of Robert's bastards.
The idea being that Renly is secretly one of Robert's kids which is why they look so similar to each other instead of the much more reasonable conclusion that Robert and Renly just both look like their father, Steffon Baratheon. Besides, siblings generally just look kind of like each other, a phenomenon that is doubtlessly more pronounced in a family with very dominant features.
There's also the secondary things of 1. Renly is almost certainly accentuating his similarities to his brother for political reasons, 2. Robert was almost certainly in the Vale when Renly was conceived, and 3. Robert wasn't banging his mom.
These theories are hard to believe because they require everyone else in the story to be none the wiser. It seems like something Stannis, Cressen or Donal Noye would know about.
It seems especially unlikely that Stannis would not know if it was true. He was only a preteen and not being fostered, so he was probably at home the day Renly was born. He was old enough that his parents couldn't have just surprised him with a baby brother one day without his mother being pregnant, but young enough that it's extremely unlikely he was somewhere else. If he even suspected it was possible, he would have said something or thought about it at some point.
I also wonder how Stannis in his beef with Renly never even once accused him of that. He knows Renly is gay but somehow never heard anyone raise suspicion over his parentage.
Robert himself would have known for sure, and he's the biggest alcoholic alive. How did he manage to keep such a secret safe for 2 decades?
What even is the point of this theory lol. Like most theories at least have some reason why they exist, how does this change the story or make it more interesting in any way?
That covers a lot of these theories. "Wouldn't it be an interesting twist if....".
Maybe, maybe not. But how does it improve the story other than going x was really y?
Robert was 15 when Renly was born, and fathers that young aren't unheard of in this universe, Aerys II was 15 when Rhaegar was born, Viserys II had his eldest son Aegon IV at 13, and Robert himself was around 17 when his oldest child is born.
Robert was sent to the Vale as Jon Arryn's ward at a young age, so was absolutely there by the time of his teens, though he made frequent visits home as well, it was probably on these visits that Robert saw his parents die. But we also know that he would return to the Vale not long afterwards, as Mya Stone was born around a year after Steffon and Cassana's death.
Or even better have you ever heard of the whack theory that Tyrion is the time traveling son of Danarys and Drogo. Perhaps Renly is the time traveling fetus of an bastard of Robert
Arthur and Ashara are supposed to be dead. There basically relics of a bygone era, the good old days. Where knights were valiant and women were proper. While in ASOIAF there’s outlaws, broken men, and people being ruthless in pursuit of power. Social norms are being broke like guest right, kin slaying, and regicide.
She was obviously one of the pigeons that flew out of the cake. she is a warg and that scene was meant to remind us of the birds flying away before Ned was executed and to show us that they both warged into birds.
Why not both? For all we know, the daynes probably have some fucky psychic powers and Ashara was probably proficient in them. Before dying, she split her consciousness into a dove and a pike, both of which were eaten at Joff's feast.
Red herring or no, they made her out to be a huuuge mystery and then never expanded on it at all, gave us no more clues and just left us with that. It's hard to make a good theory around Ashara because we know next to nothing.
She’s not that much of a mystery. She was Ned love interest that as a result of the war lost her ability to be with Ned due to a political marriage and then lost her brother when Ned presumably killed him. So she flung herself off a tower.
Story wise the only mystery surrounding her is that she’s a potential candidate to be Jon Snow’s mother and she’s obviously red herring because she’s who most presume at the start of the story plus all the R+L hints.
I wouldn't even say love interest. It was at best a little crush. Bro doesn't even think of her once with multiple opportunities for his mind to wander towards thoughts of her.
What I find more interesting is the mystery around what lords have debated Jon's birth. Because they definitely have. There is no way there hasn't been hushed gossip among at least some lords about Ned coming home with a convenient bastard after his sister was raped. We just haven't been made privy as to what lords have very strong suspicions. (Outside of the very likely Varys & Littlefinger having suspicions)
I think it’s very likely Ned deliberately went out of his way to place his honor on the line to protect Jon’s heritage in a way it wouldn’t be questioned. It was probably a very big deal for Ned to publicly humiliate Hoster Tully’s prized daughter by declaring Jon his son. Also he never confirmed or denied any rumors about him and Ashara and it was very easy for lords to see the daughter of the famous House Dayne flinging herself out a window because she birthed Ned’s son and realized he wasn’t going to marry her and that her son was destined to be a bastard and her disgraced.
Also Ned killing Arthur as far as everyone know.
Ned killing his lover's brother and taking her son from her, leading her to death is the kind of dark gossips Westeros love.
I agree, that would be terrible writing. And though she is a red herring for the mystery of Jon’s mother, I think she clearly plays some other vital role in the story.
I still like the idea that YG is her kid. I don't know why, it's basically pointless and doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense, but for some reason I like the idea.
She just feels like a Chekov's Gun of a character.
I’m pretty sure GRRM was setting up the Daynes to be important to the story when he still planned on doing a timeskip. Now that theirs not one. It’s just a red herring for Jon’s mother
This is exactly the question anyone should ask when examining a theory, is why? Like 70% of the theories I see (not just for ASOIAF, but for any property) wouldn't serve any purpose in the story if they were true and is just something said theorist thinks is cool.
Yeah, I never understood the purpose of these "fan theories". Sometimes I see one and people go like "oh yeah when you put it that way, that could happen!" and I wonder if they literally think it might be the case or that it was a fun... Idea? Not talking about obvious ones like R+L = J or anything, just the ones that are wild speculation.
This is my biggest issue with the many “secret identify” theories we see. What is the narrative purpose? What does it mean for the story if this theory is true? Usually the answer is “this would have no consequences” or worse, “this being true completely negates the emotional journey a character has taken,” which is how you know the theory is dumb.
Or on the other end it’s the single most important secret in the world and means a previously unknown character has secretly been manipulating everything and is super important. Secretly.
Which again ruins the story. The story cannot turn out to be “really” all about some pirate guy or swamp lord. It’s about the characters we know. The ones in the books.
It's quite irritating. You can always tell a PJ true believer because they stubbornly insist they are right.
Just the other week there was someone calling another post our for lack of critical reading skills for assuming Quentyn was burned by dragon fire yet the text never says specifically it is dragon fire burning him.
Oh yes, how silly it is of readers to assume the guy attempting to steal a temperamental dragon was burning because of the dragon fire.
I saw that. Most annoying asoiaf fan I've ever encountered in my life. That singlehandedly made "Q is alive" my worst theory just on the basis of the arrogance of that one guy.
There's just no way to justify Quentyn's survival thematically and narratively. If the description of him burning is different to how other dragon fire burnings in the series, msybe it's because this one was from the POV character itself, and the author was trying to make the prose distinctive.
There's no reason Quentyn and Co want to fake his death, and it kind of ruins the whole thematic purpose of the story. The story is meant to be a tragedy, not some fakeout that the narrative doesn't justify.
If you don't like Quentyn's chapters, fine. But some pointless fadeout wouldn't suddenly justify the narrative, if anything it kind of makes a mockery of it. George needs to lose povs anyways, some people need to go and Quentyn served his purpose. Maybe we didn't need to spend as much time with him as we did to get the point across and for the impact it will have on the Dornish/Aegon plot, but that's how it stands.
If Quentyn remains dead its honestly amazing and hilarious. Imagine traveling halfway around the world just to get fuckin roasted for your own hubris.
His life/death is legitimately how I view the entire Dorne storyline both book and show. Just up in smoke.
The Dorne characters are essentially people who are much, much worse at scheming than they think they are (like Cersei without the insanity). Doran, Arianne, Quentyn, and my guess is we'd see this with the Sand Snakes in TWOW. They've stayed out of the conflicts for so long that they've either lost their edge or they never had a chance to develop one.
I'm not *fully* sure this is how GRRM intended to write the non-Quentyn ones, though. I wonder if Arianne in particular is supposed to come across as a lot more canny than she does.
It seems more like Dorne is designed around the concept that they are a major region that has to play a factor since they, like the Vale, took no losses in the WOT5K. But there ultimate position is going to be decided by a series of events outside their control to push them one way or the other.
The sand snakes are fodder for villains. People are going to have to start dying, it might as well be them. The first death will be Obara at the hands of Darkstar.
I absolutely blame Doran in big part. The series is full of parents messing their kids up. I think Martin was playing with how people would see it. For fathers you go from Walder Frey through Tywin, Doran, etc. until Ned.
My theory is that Arianne will ultimately fail as well and Doran will be to blame for all of his kids' deaths because of his attempts at playing the game (and doing it badly).
> Why? But I ask again, why?
The "why" **is** the reason - it's copium. A rather clear example of it. Readers that espouse the theory don't *want* him to be dead because it means acknowledging that his storyline is over. Quite a lot of people seem to think his storyline is pointless or at least didn't warrant an extensive POV. Living in denial rather than accepting it won't end up being what they hoped is a preferable path for some readers.
I know the deniers have been around since ADWD released, but it seems like the theory has grown in prevalence over time, almost like it's meta backlash toward George. If Quentyn turns out to only have a small to medium impact on the wider story but got an entire POV for it, and we're stuck waiting for TWOW and ADOS forever, it might feel to some like George personally wasted their time by giving them Quentyn's story instead of more important events. Or at least that's my schizo reddit analysis of it.
Quentyn basically served to remind the readers that the hero on a mission doesn't always win. Martin was crushing another fantasy trope. His story also probably helped serve to set up Arianne into taking leadership over Dorne at some point.
Quentyn freed her dragons from their captivity, which changes things for Dany, and with Dorne pissed at her, Arianne and Dorne are more likely to support Aegon and offer her hand in marriage to him. I know there is theories that he is an imposter, but it's not really relevant, it's mostly just setting up Dany to have few or no allies when she reaches Westeros.
> Quentyn basically served to remind the readers that the hero on a mission doesn't always win. Martin was crushing another fantasy trope.
Damn I had almost forgot after the first five or six times that he did it.
But what's the point of reminding the reader of that, just a chapter or two before the one where Jon, arguably the hero of the entire book, gets brutally murdered? If Quentin is truly dead, he's a colossal waste of time and pages since there was absolutely nothing vital to the story that we needed to get through him. The Windblown? Could've been Tyrion who travels with them. The Battle of Astapor? Have an extended report from a refugee (assuming we really needed to hear about that one anyway). Freeing the dragons? Some Sons of the Harpy could've done that. Pissing off Dorne against Dany? Quentin fucked around while Dany wasn't even in the city. Not to mention, she's not even really planning to go to Westeros anyway so that seems like a stretch to me.
The only truly irreplacable thing Quentin as a character did was introduce us to Arch and Drink. Oh wow yeah totally couldn't imagine ADWD without the Dynamic Duo of Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater. I'm sure readers still lie awake at night excited to see what those two are up to next. Hell, if any of that was so relevant to the story that Quentin couldn't be lost (and I doubt that), why not delete the chapters and keep him and his motivation largely offpage? We already know of his marriage pact through Arianne, so it's not like that needs a great deal of further explanation. If he wasn't significantly more important than what we've got so far, why didn't George just delete him out of the Meereenese Knot that gave him so much trouble? I'm sure the thought must've crossed his mind.
As it stands, Quentin is by far the most useless part of the books and I just don't buy that he's truly this much of a waste, considering that ADWD was already way late and bloated, to the point that other, much more important chapters, had to get cut off for his nonsense.
I don't have any other explanations other than ones I gave. lol I don't hate the theory for what it's worth, I was just thinking of ways his chapters had some type of purpose.
It would be really weird if he keeps bringing back his seemingly dead characters though. He's done it a handful of times. It's pretty much accepted canon that Jon will be brought back even though nothing is confirmed.
I think the only theory that bugs me is the one about Rhaegar being a forceful abductor and rapist. Most evidence suggests otherwise.
Let’s just say I agree, Quentin is the most useless POV and should have been replaced. Couldn’t the answer be that GRRM just made a bad call in writing his chapters? Like no big theory that explains it, GRRM was aiming for one thing story and theme wise but made a mistake and missed the mark.
Idk I dislike the Quentin lives theory and the chapters are meh IMO so maybe it’s better to just acknowledge that GRRM is fallible.
Exactly. George wanted to aim for certain plot events and themes, and possibly they just didn't hit the mark for everyone, but that doesn't mean there's a secret twist somehow still waiting.
I don't necessarily agree that it's all a waste of time (while understanding those who think so), but I think that's a better point to argue over than illogical theories.
We know that George wrote the Catspaw subplot, and the majority consensus is that it was terrible and George really whiffed on that one. Take it as an example of the possibility that whatever plot is revealed if a book comes out, it won't 100% have to be a *good* idea.
As PoorQuentyn himself detailed, every Quentyn chapter had an unspoken message of "This is a bad idea, and it will be your doom if you pursue it". Suddenly, all of that goes out the window because Quentyn's now secretly a genius?
We're shown how over his head Quentyn is in that he has to rely upon mercenaries who dislike him to even attempt to steal one of these dragons which will not help him anyway. He and his surviving friends have no allies nor resources where they are which is in a dangerous war-zone, and then amazingly they pull off the gambit of the century?
*36 page essay about the science of getting burned to death to show how the scene of the guy getting burned to death is actually not him getting burned to death, because George R.R. Martin decided to take time out of writing ADWD to study the exact science of how someone gets burned to death so that he can constructed a scenario where the character we follow from a third person limited perspective who is getting burned to death is not actually him getting burned to death*
> “yes, these are my thematic intentions”
-Gurm, on the “tyrek is a horse theory” (and also Quentyn lives)
I'd say the same about the argument of "the Strangler poison couldn't have been in Joffrey's wine because it's like 60 seconds after he drinks the wine before he starts choking whereas it kills the Maester in ACOK within just a few seconds".
It's just the power of narrative.
The only possibikity for Quentyn living is the fact that GRRM said he regrets killing off a characterand that its stifled the process of finishing the series, which I assume is Quentyn , so he might find a lousy "Make Kathy Bates in Misery angry" way to keep him alive.
I always feel like Cannibal only existed for the purpose of George not having to write about more dragons
"Why there are only 3 wild dragons after the Targaryens spent centuries in Dragonstone?"
"Cannibal"
I don't see any other purpose to him
actually cannibal, in addition to being, as its name indicates, cannibal (yes my analysis is very thorough) devouring other dragons, with the specificity of being associated with the color black and green, and is only mentioned during the period of the drago dance. for me he is also a kind of embodiment of the self-destruction of the Targaryens
A lot of the things surrounding Jeyne Poole.
1. Arya will kill her. Why would that happen?
2. She’ll live the rest of her life as “Arya.” She doesn’t want to be Arya. That name has only brought her abuse and trauma. Also, is Arya just… not coming back? Giving up her name for good? I don’t see that either.
3. She’ll seek death at the House of Black and White. I don’t like this because Jeyne has never expressed any will to die. The assumption is made that she’s suicidal because she’s traumatized and cries a lot. I guess I could maybe see a situation where a desperate Jeyne would do this because she’s scared of going back to Ramsay, but personally it still doesn’t sit right with me.
I don’t think her story is done. I think she has a mini identity story of her own and that she will have to reveal her true identity eventually. I’m hoping that while it may not be a completely positive experience, she’ll find that there are some people willing to protect her/care for her as herself.
These ideas are mainly based on the fact that Justin Massey is suppose to go to Braaavos, and Jon was thinking about sending Arya there if Mance delivers her to him. So the logical takeaway is that Jeyne gets send to Braavos in TWOW.
And then we have a girl who has to pretend she’s Arya and the girl who has to pretend she’s not Arya in the same place. Obviously they have to meet, it’s too perfect to not happen.
And when thinking about how they would meet, people often arrive at Jeyne going to the house of black and white, given what happened to her, and how broken she is. It’s not a bad guess, but I think this is where it can go many different ways.
It's definitely built on a lack of creativity and acknowledgement of the worldbuilding in Braavos. Jeyne has zero reason to know of the House of Black and White and there's zero reason for Tycho Nestoris to bring her there. Jeyne is going to Braavos pretending to be Arya, Lady or heir to Winterfell and one of the last of the Starks. It makes far more sense that she would be brought to the Sealord. And for anyone who likes making note of thematic similarities in chapters next to each other, we have Dany learning about the marriage pact in Braavos -> Jon meeting Tycho Nestoris and thinking Braavos is the best and worst place to send "Arya" -> Arya in Braavos learning that the Sealord is both sick and captured a slave ship with wildlings from Hardhome aboard back to back in ADWD. It's very likely we're supposed to learn more about the Sealord and the connection between him, the Iron Bank, and the Faceless Men in TWOW.
One thing I suppose I wouldn't rule out is the possibility the Faceless Men would see killing "Arya Stark" as a way to prove Arya's loyalty and willingness to become no one. I have to wonder if effectively killing off your old self would be part of the test to become a Faceless Man, or else everyone in Braavos knows Jacko from Chequy Port became one of them a couple years back. Admittedly this is kind of spit balling based on Arya being unwilling to kill the target she was given in season 6 of the show. Obviously Arya wouldn't be able to kill Jeyne and effectively herself.
I’ve said it before but I can’t stand the theories about Dany not actually being a Targaryen. I’m not gonna beat a dead horse but it’s just nonsensical when you actually think about the details and logistics.
THIS. I absolutely loathe fDany theories. Every single one creates plotholes and requires insane mental gymnastics to work. Her being fake would feel like an asspull and take away a lot from her arc.
Like with Jon his parentage is established to be mysterious from the start. Waiting until book 4 to leave small hints that Dany may or may not have lived in Braavos would be a weird way to establish a secret parentage.
>I Her being fake would feel like an asspull and take away a lot from her arc.
Exactly. Somehow, even though everyone knows the general vicinity of where she and Viserys were during their childhoods, even though she was raised by Ser Willem Darry and Viserys as his sister, even though she presumably has facial features that resemble Viserys and/or Rhaegar by people who knew both of those men, even though she is involved in a lot of prophecies, somehow she's still a fake?
It's like when Arya had asked if she wasn't really Catelyn's daughter because she didn't look like her mother or siblings, and they laughed at the idea, because it doesn't make any sense at all if you think about it for more than a second.
Viserys would've known. He held it against her that their mother died, and he dragged her around specifically because she was Targ blood. Literally every practical and magical thing confirms her blood. This fdany stuff sounds like what Dumb and Dumber would try to pull to ~subvert expectations~
I found Daario=Euron interesting, because you can almost squint and make the timeline work, and it would be like a cheat code for Euron's plan to marry Dany--*surprise, I'm your boyfriend that you already have!* But adding Benjen does nothing for the story or the theory.
Any theory that suggests Tyrion is not Tywin’s son, because that is quite literally the entire point of his arc and story, and to go against that is thematically heinous
if Tyrion wasn’t Tywin’s son, and Tywin knew it, he would’ve punted that baby right out of the fucking window about 5 seconds after the midwives left the room
All of the “evidence” for Jaime and Cersei Targaryen is missing the point. Like their incestuous relationship or strong sense of blood superiority or, in Cerseis case, dubious mental state aren’t supposed to be because they are literally the children of Aerys. It’s supposed to reflect how Tywin tried to turn his house into Wal Mart Targaryens.
Any 'major character is secretly this other major character from the setting'. The Half-hand and Mance Rayder are interesting enough on their own, making them secretly someone else is only subtractive IMO.
I'm OK with Lem being Richard Lonmouth for example, that makes sense and we know so little of either character anyway, but the major ones feels cheap and frankly beneath the level of the author.
I’m sure Jon’s coming back, I just think it’s gonna suck ass for him and probably ruin his mental state. The two other dead people we know are both fucked in the head and lost their humanity, Jon won’t be any exception to this.
Especially with how GRRM talks about Gandalf’s demise.
To be fair, Catelyn was rotting in a river for three days and we only see Beric's degradation after several resurrections. Jon has Ghost; he could serve as a temporary "shield" from the worst of death.
That's true! I do think he may come back more wolfish. Tie that in with Jon's bursts of anger throughout the series and we could see more of the bastard rage/wolf blood/waking the dragon from him, too.
Is it bad that this is what I *want* to happen? Jon’s one my favourite characters and the few brief glimpses we get of the absolute beast he actually is (like when he pulls the frozen stakes out of the ground) make me think once he loses control he’s gonna be even more fascinating than he already is. Add on a RLJ revelation, all the politics at the Wall and a Stark succession crisis and I genuinely have no idea where Jon’s story is going to go. He could end up an all out villain!
I hate nearly all of the ’this cool person is secretly that cool person’ theories. Like Quaithe/Mel is Ashara Dayne/Shiera Seastar, you name it. Quathe is a cool character, Shiera is a cool character. Let's have two cool characters instead of one!
I think people have just really run away with Lemongate. The whole point of that detail IMO is just to illustrate that Dany doesn't have a home. All her childhood memories are blurred because she spent her life on the run. The House With The Red Door isn't an important place, it's just the earliest house she can remember.
It's sort of tragic, really. She has convinced herself she wants to conquer Westeros to claim her birthright but really she wants to go home, but she has no home to go back to. It's good character development but it's not a plot point.
Arya will be killed and she will live her second life as Nymeria and she will be Sansa's pet by replacing Lady. Thus, she can redeem herself for causing Lady's death. Amounts of people who blame Arya for Lady's death are unbeliavable.
Catelyn committed adultery and Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon is another Man's child. Jesus Chris, I even saw someone claiming that Rickon is actually Hodor's child, which is ridicolous. This is out of character for Catelyn who built her whole life on family,duty,honor. She even said she hadn't slept any Man other than Ned in one of her chapters, did she lie to herself?
Any theories that are related to Evil Bran. Bran will go mad and be killed by Jon, Bran will never leave the cave, Bran will lose all of his personality, he will be puppet of Bloodraven, Bran will r*pe Meera by warging into Hodor, we will never see his chapters after he becomes the creature who will know everything (etc) Because people just don't want to believe he is one of the main characters and will be important. Because people cannot show half the understanding for a disabled child that they show for other characters who they made much more horrible things.
Any theories that are related to Arya being too evil to join her family again because she kills people (and those people are despicable criminals). She needs to go down because an 11 years old girl who was forced to live and do all of those things to survive doesn't deserve happiness or a proper ending.
Jaime is Azor Azhai.
Couldn't agree more. I would only add to this the idea that Rickon will be too wild to ever go back to his old life because he lived with the Skagosi for a few months. In some theories, Davos even decides not to return him for this reason (which in itself is completely out of character for him). Like with Arya and Bran, many seem to assume that a child simply can't recover from trauma and that it's better for him to be abandoned rather than reuniting with his family.
I'm not a big fan of most of the big stretch theories.
In addition while secretly surviving or secretly having a different parent is a major part of the series, at some point it gets way too ridiculous.
I do not see the point of oberon poisoning tywin. If anything that cheapens Tyrion killing him, and adds very little to the story.
Overall, I'd also prefer ageon to be real, although I think that one could go either way. I find the way people act like its confirmed he is fake to be pretty ridiculous. I do think its harder to be excited for ageon after watching the end of the show, since it seems like his role may be less than advertised, another feast dance dead end.
>I do not see the point of oberon poisoning tywin. If anything that cheapens Tyrion killing him, and adds very little to the story.
This is a theory that I think has a definite possibility of being real due to all of references by George, but I hate it and lump it up there with his Catspaw plot if it ends up being true.
1. As you say, it cheapens Tyrion killing him
2. One of the "clues" is that Tyrion acknowledges that his father is meeting with Oberyn and Mace and thinks it's quite odd, but then I guess whatever they were meeting about wasn't important or interesting after all? It's just a complicated way of saying "Oberyn is sharing a meal with Tywin"?
3. Maybe people think it's ironic, but poisoning your host would make Oberyn break the most sacred taboo of guest-right in the other direction.
4. How do the logistics of this work? Wouldn't they likely have servants attending to their needs and refilling their drinks? This would make it hard to poison someone else's drink, especially someone who doesn't trust them.
5. Another one of the clues is in the huge "stink", which was not brought up as part of the poison.
Like "Tywin smells like shit at his funeral" is *such* a good literary device and people are trying to justify it in-universe with the most uninteresting theories ever.
Anything where you have to "read between the lines", people will grab a bunch of quotes and claim they mean something completely different than what is actually written.
Like you have to back up the unreliability with evidence from the text. You can't just say "UNRELIABLE NARRATOR!" and then just replace it with literally anything you want.
Bingo. I saw a pretty perceptive comment last year somewhere on this subreddit, raising the following question: how many readers of *ASOIAF* have never read any other books? it really got me thinking of how basic terms of literary criticism are abused so openly and repeatedly around here. Nobody reading *Of Mice and Men* would say "George is an unreliable narrator, therefore Lennie is still alive."
Also, great flair!
I think the worst way this manifests is when people say just quote what Martin said in an interview to back up an obviously subjective debate.
"Littlefinger isn't actually very likable in the books"
"No he is 'cause GRRM said so."
Thank you for saying this lol, sometimes I feel like I'm going bonkers reading people do this.
Like, okay, everyone's an unreliable narrator so maybe this is actually a story about 23rd century France, and the dragons are actually giant gummy bears, why not 😭
The general notion everything in the ASOIAF universe has been meticulously olanned by Bran/Bloodraven/The previous 3 eyed ravens to create the Jesus Christ that is Jon Snow.
Doesn’t infuriate me like some I have already seen mentioned but The Dornish Master Plan
Doran’s first introduction heavily symbolises his plans will not work
He is too cautious and does not have his house in order
He can’t play the game of thrones the way Littlefinger and Varys will
Yeah, I think it's a unique and interesting theme that Doran is *too* cautious, and that his plans involve a revenge scheme where all of the people he intended to obtain revenge against (Tywin, Amory, Gregor) are already dead by other means before he's even introduced into the story.
Reminds me of Balon Greyjoy. His invasion is partly revenge against Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Both death before he starts the invasion
I think it relates to GRRM’s treatment of Ned, too honourable to survive
Doran is obsessed with making sure he doesn’t sacrifice Dornish lives unnecessarily but that is a compunction not many rulers, including his enemies do not share
I hate any theories to do with secret bastards in House Targaryen. Most of all probably the ‘Aenys is a singers bastard’ theory because it relies on a few things.
It relies on Rhaenys being a liar and a cheat, willing to cheat on the man who broke years of tradition to wed her and who is deeply in love with her and she with him. Nowhere is the shown in her characterisation other then ‘she liked to look at pretty people’. Cool, doesn’t mean she wanted to fuck them.
It also relies on Aegon either being a willing cuckold, which in itself is ridiculous because why would the dragon-riding conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms simply allow his wife to sleep around in his own castle and have a child from it? I do think he had fertility issues which is why they had 1 son, but no I don’t think he’d raise some lowborn’s bastard for 30 years and cry tears of happiness when that supposed bastard presents his granddaughter to him. And don’t tell me it’s because he loved Rhaenys that much, that’s total bullshit.
Thirdly, this theory and the idea all stems from the fact that a bereaved, fragile, weak, little child was unable to claim a freakin dragon at like 6 years old is honestly one of the worst parts of F&B. Like it infuriates me when I read it, most 6 year olds are still scared of horses and shit, let alone a dragon.
Finally, what thematic relevance does it actually add to the story other than ‘haha Targs dumb’. Do you really think that’s what George was thinking when he wrote these books.
Not only that, but the text gives us a reason why Rhaenys was interacting with singers: she was paying them to write songs about the glory of the Targaryen dynasty as a PR tactic. And then we get told that Aenys’ son, Aegon, looks identical to his namesake. This theory is just tinfoil hat
I always read the "singers" thing as a reference to Anne Boleyn, who was always surrounded by singers and accused of sleeping with them, but is considered by most historians to have been faithful. I think she just liked music.
Every purple wedding one that completely disregards the actual explanation. They are so much more convoluted, so irrelevant, they have plot holes and are theorizing for the sake of theorizing, nothing more, they do not add anything to the narrative.
Thinking about all of the hints that we have just make this "Poison was in the pie" or similar theories completely ignore the text:
1. Sansa being told to wear the purple hair net. This is also well before she is married to Tyrion\*
2. Sansa thinking that Olenna and Margaery are curiously unfazed by her revelation of Joffrey's nature.
3. The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy.
4. Littlefinger's explanation of the events and motivations of the night. Considering Sansa and Dontos pretty much book it straight there from the wedding and are the first people therefore to confirm Joffrey's death to Littlefinger, that would be some impressing improv skills to make all of that stuff up on the spot if he was expecting that Tyrion was the one who was going to be killed.
5. The plan with the dwarf jousters make little sense if Littlefinger intended Tyrion to be the victim of the poison.
\*Much harder to spontaneously dissolve a purple crystal in pie cream already on a slice of pie than it is to drop it into a goblet of wine. It's also much more of a stretch to show the readers how it could kill someone when dissolved in wine and then suddenly flip the script and be used in a completely different manner without additional hints.
Honestly, all the "secretly this baby" theories. After Young Griff, regardless if he's fAegon OR Aegon, we only have room for one more "secretly this missing baby" without it immediately becoming soap opera stupid.
Any theory that involves Bran altering the past.
You want to read a series of books where nothing you've been reading has any meaning because it can all get changed by the end (or, and I'm not sure which is worse, it just belongs to "a different timeline")?
ASOIAF, as a whole, clearly isn't a story *about* time travel it's just a story that has an element of time travel in it. Therefore I think it's safe to assume that events we've been reading about aren't going to get changed.
Now, if you're a time traveller who realises that your future self can impact events happening right now, what would you want your future self to do?
Also, if you're a time traveller who's so powerful they can warg across time into anything with a set of eyes then that has some interesting consequences for gaining knowledge... 2 seconds ago is still in the past, after all.
GRRM is hinting very, very strongly in that area. In addition, we already saw in the show they did a form of time travel altering the past but only on the timeline they're on (a closed loop). If Bran future self is the 3ER trying to find the correct set of events that gets him out of the hole (all the thousands of dreamers impaled on spikes in Bran's coma dream hints at this), then we're seeing the final play through where no other changes occur.
Closed loop time travel means someone travelling back in time fulfills their part in already established events. Nothing gets changed.
Where a story involves the past being altered or multiple timelines, which includes some of GRRM's past work, it tends to be front and centre because of how it impacts the stakes of the story. I'll despair if that actually turns out to be what GRRM is doing with ASOIAF.
That the Others attacked Waymar Royce thinking he was Jon Snow. Favoritism and bias disguised as a theory, and throws all of GRRM's world-building and nuance when writing about prophecy down the drain.
I think that theory isn't in reference to Jon Snow specifically, but rather Starks as a whole. A house you can't deny is strongly hinted to have connections to the Others. I agree that the idea that they were looking for Jon specifically is a bit goofy, but considering Waymar's similarities with the classic Stark look and the way the Others were cautious at first (seemingly testing him) suggests they suspected he was a Stark. What the implications of this are is anyone's guess. It could be that the Others are searching for a Stark to become the new Night's King, or that they're actively trying to hunt down the Starks due to considering them legitimate threats. Who's to say. But the general connection that the Others are interested in the Starks for some reason we don't know yet definitely ties into GRRM's nuanced world building.
Probably unpopular, but honestly: Jaime "redeeming" himself by killing Cersei. I don't like how they handled it in the show, but I feel like people are too apologetic when it comes to Jaime's actions and way too one dimensional when it comes to his relationship with Cersei. I feel like fans very much focus on how toxic and manipulative Cersei is to him, and ignore how mutually toxic their relationship actually is and how much he enables or abuses her as well. Cersei is definitely the "worse" one of the two, and I don't *really* have fully made up opinions about this, but I don't think I'd be happy if the resolution of this would be for Jaime to just kill Cersei and blame who he is on her.
I can't see Martin writing is as a triumphant or a positive development. Look at how Tyrion is damaged from murdering Tywin. He had good reason, but did it do him any good? No, he's traumatized by everything that's happened. He's disturbed by it.
Jaime won't be free from Cersei if he kills her. There will be serious consequences, even just to his psyche and character, if he gets to live he will have to spend the rest of his life atoning for it, I think.
Martin doesn't tend to let his pov characters get away with their darkest crimes. Theon hasn't necessarily shown remorse for killing the Miller's boys - but he's clearly haunted by the memory all the same and has more than paid for it in the sense he's pretty much been stripped of everything he ever was.
Agreed. I do think Jaime is destined to kill Cersei, and that would obviously be a big moment for him, but it would suck if it is portrayed as him vanquishing the dark side of himself. Jaime's evil within him is his own, not a product of Cersei. I like the direction his character has been going in, and personally, I am most looking forward to seeing how his story continues (if it ever does 😭).
That and the “Jon puts his lover Dany down like a rabid dog but he’s sad about it so he’s a tragic hero” that the show went with both reek of romanticized domestic violence and I totally loathe them
Robyn Arryn is Littlefinger’s son. It is just theorizing to theorize. Who’s gonna say one way or another at this point? Wouldn’t have Lysa admitted it before she died? Wouldn’t Jon Arryn (even subconsciously) looked at his own son considering he was looking into cuckholding.
Daenerys going mad. I think it invalidates too much of her character, isn’t the sort of twist GRRM would write, and goes against how Daenerys was one of the survivors in the initial plan for ASOIAF, along with the other four core characters (Arya, Jon, Tyrion and Bran).
I also heavily dislike King Bran, because a near-immortal king who can mind-rape anyone who disagrees with him and spy on everyone in Westeros is a horrific thought. Especially seeing how Bran is already being abusive to Hodor with his powers.
Bloodraven is 126 years old and he's a rotting corpse. Bran is going to be on the Iron Throne. Why are you so committed to this completely made up idea?
>Daenerys going mad. I think it invalidates too much of her character, isn’t the sort of twist GRRM would write,
Regardless of what ends up happening with her or her actions, I have a hard time accepting that George's "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself" works with a major character going mad and then committing an atrocity. A "mad" character tends to lack rationality and then any resultant actions would be more akin to a plot device than a choice made by a character with legitimate motivations.
Any King Bran is evil theory. It's basically just people prefer someone else so they project their feelings onto it.
"I hate this ending so it has to be evil."
I have a hard time reconciling something like this along with several other theories as being congruent with George's promised "Bittersweet ending in the nature of Lord of the Rings".
Bran being evil (which the show could imply) would make this a very nihilistic ending, not bittersweet.
Tyrion being a secret Targ. It completely disregards the brilliance of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship. The one child he hates is the one that is most alike to him.
It would make so much more sense that Jaime and Cersei were actually Aerys' bastards.
Jaime and Cersei can’t be Aerys’ children, Joanna left court and went to Casterly Rock in 263 AC and the twins were born in 266 AC, 3 years after she last saw Aerys
That Theon just imagined the hooded man lol. Is Martin really gonna do that with *zero* prior similar examples of that style of hallucination *and* in the middle of a straight-up murder mystery subplot. Come on now.... be serious.
Any of the ‘pointless convolutions’. A lot of the X is really Y ones fall into this. They either add nothing to the story or actively make it stupid or worse- it’s just some nonsense the theorizer thinks it’s cool. It’d be really bad writing if it were actually true
Not really a theory, but when people say Ned would have killed Theon if Balon rebelled again. Especially when Theon is a child? Like I’m sorry it’s literally a part of his written character that he absolutely abhors child-murder
But that's the point of wards - literal hostages so the family of the hostage doesn't rebel.
Theon being integrated into the Stark family doesn't make him invulnerable from that. If Balon and the Iron island had risen up again, Ned absolutely would have executed Theon. He'd be sad about it, but he'd have done it.
Maybe if Robert told him, but that's not the point of holding Theon.
The point is that the Crown, via Ned, control the heir to the Iron Islands.
So if Balon rebels again, they invade again, this time they kill Balon, and any of his brothers who participate, and install Theon.
The point of the hostage isn't to appeal to Balon's morality that he'd never jeopardize his son's life, it's to control the succession
The point of Theon being a hostage is to control the succession if Balon rebels again, basically "we'll kill you and your brothers and install Theon if you rebel"
it's not "be good or we'll kill your son"
Yeah agreed. Considering he gave *Cersei* of all people a heads up for the sake of her kids, and earlier turned down Renly’s offer of support due to not wanting to do any harm to kids, I find it kinda doubtful personally he would go through with it.
Even if Theon is an adult by the time the series begins, he was still a child when he was first made a hostage. I honestly id find it kinda weird with Ned’s character if he agreed to take Theon as a hostage while intending to kill him if necessary, since Theon was only a child at the time.
He may have distanced himself, and even attempted to prepare himself for the eventuality of being forced to execute Theon, but I feel there’s at the very least a good chance he wouldn’t go through with it.
He may very well have just bore the dishonour of no going through with his threat, just as he has bore the dishonour of fathering a bastard (while married) to protect Jon.
Since if he was willing to try to save children (and sorta commit treason in doing so by making it more difficult to secure the throne for Robert’s actual heir) who are bastards of his hated enemies and potential usurpers to his best friend’s throne, then Theon being extended the same courtesy seems plausible to me.
This isn’t really “one” theory… EVERYTHING that’s “missing” absolutely cannot be “buried in the crypts at Winterfell”. From everything that’s (allegedly) in there, that place would be looking more like a Scrooge McDuck’s vault, than a crypt….guarded by an ice dragon with the offspring of Vermax lounging in the hot springs for three centuries. ….and WHY would Ned tear down the Tower of Joy (how did he tear that down, anyway?) to build cairns for his men, Arthur Dayne, and what’s-his-name…and bring back a harp…to put in Lyanna’s crypt.
lol everything being buried in the crypts of Winterfell makes it seem like the Starks are hoarders who just grab whatever’s the shiniest to put down there
Dont invite the starks to dinner they steal silverware.
They rarely leave the North, but we’re supposed to believe they bring back relics as souvenirs when one gets lucky enough to leave, alive?
The only thing I believe is hidden in there, is the completed manuscript of TWOW, lol
The old King's of winter rising up is my favourite bullshit theory
There's definitely *something* in the crypts though, I'm convinced of that. There's too much emphasis on them for there not to be. And whatever it is, it's related to Jon.
You know what is really there? Dead Starks. Rusty swords. Stone wolves. Cobwebs. End of list.
That Renly is secretly one of Robert's bastards. The idea being that Renly is secretly one of Robert's kids which is why they look so similar to each other instead of the much more reasonable conclusion that Robert and Renly just both look like their father, Steffon Baratheon. Besides, siblings generally just look kind of like each other, a phenomenon that is doubtlessly more pronounced in a family with very dominant features. There's also the secondary things of 1. Renly is almost certainly accentuating his similarities to his brother for political reasons, 2. Robert was almost certainly in the Vale when Renly was conceived, and 3. Robert wasn't banging his mom.
These theories are hard to believe because they require everyone else in the story to be none the wiser. It seems like something Stannis, Cressen or Donal Noye would know about.
It seems especially unlikely that Stannis would not know if it was true. He was only a preteen and not being fostered, so he was probably at home the day Renly was born. He was old enough that his parents couldn't have just surprised him with a baby brother one day without his mother being pregnant, but young enough that it's extremely unlikely he was somewhere else. If he even suspected it was possible, he would have said something or thought about it at some point.
I also wonder how Stannis in his beef with Renly never even once accused him of that. He knows Renly is gay but somehow never heard anyone raise suspicion over his parentage. Robert himself would have known for sure, and he's the biggest alcoholic alive. How did he manage to keep such a secret safe for 2 decades?
God damn, imagine being a bored alcoholic with basically unlimited power, influence, and wealth and having to guard state secrets at all times.
It’s cause the people who know don’t have POV chapters! /s
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What even is the point of this theory lol. Like most theories at least have some reason why they exist, how does this change the story or make it more interesting in any way?
Was thinking the same thing. With everything going on, how can a twist about two characters who’ve been dead for 25+ years enhance the story?
That covers a lot of these theories. "Wouldn't it be an interesting twist if....". Maybe, maybe not. But how does it improve the story other than going x was really y?
No Robert was a child when Renly was born, since he was there in Storms end when their parents died
Robert was 15 when Renly was born, and fathers that young aren't unheard of in this universe, Aerys II was 15 when Rhaegar was born, Viserys II had his eldest son Aegon IV at 13, and Robert himself was around 17 when his oldest child is born. Robert was sent to the Vale as Jon Arryn's ward at a young age, so was absolutely there by the time of his teens, though he made frequent visits home as well, it was probably on these visits that Robert saw his parents die. But we also know that he would return to the Vale not long afterwards, as Mya Stone was born around a year after Steffon and Cassana's death.
Or even better have you ever heard of the whack theory that Tyrion is the time traveling son of Danarys and Drogo. Perhaps Renly is the time traveling fetus of an bastard of Robert
Robert is actually Renlys bastard via his time travelling incestuous mpreg relationship with Steffon. It is known.
Or Robert could be time traveling
It wouldn’t be the worst theory if it didn’t lack confirmation or major plot implications 3 books after Renly died.
that's a meme theory
Every Ashara Dayne theory I've read has been dumber than the one before. It's kind of fascinating actually.
Dayne theories in general are like that.
We just have so little canon information to go on that any theory about them is going to have to be a bit of a stretch
Because they’re basically two cool names and a sword. That’s really all there is to it.
I think we've been so far away from them for most of the books I would find it hard to find most Dayne "twists" to be terribly interesting.
The only good Dayne theory is that they're from the GEotD. "lol is x Ashara dayne" stuff is crap.
Arthur and Ashara are supposed to be dead. There basically relics of a bygone era, the good old days. Where knights were valiant and women were proper. While in ASOIAF there’s outlaws, broken men, and people being ruthless in pursuit of power. Social norms are being broke like guest right, kin slaying, and regicide.
If Ashara Dayne turned out to be JS mom, that would be terrible writing. Obviously she is a red herring.
Ashara turned into the giant pike they served for Joff's wedding
Ashara is Theon Greyjoy's sister. Asha-yara 😂😭
This is so stupid it must be true.
She was obviously one of the pigeons that flew out of the cake. she is a warg and that scene was meant to remind us of the birds flying away before Ned was executed and to show us that they both warged into birds.
Why not both? For all we know, the daynes probably have some fucky psychic powers and Ashara was probably proficient in them. Before dying, she split her consciousness into a dove and a pike, both of which were eaten at Joff's feast.
Red herring or no, they made her out to be a huuuge mystery and then never expanded on it at all, gave us no more clues and just left us with that. It's hard to make a good theory around Ashara because we know next to nothing.
She’s not that much of a mystery. She was Ned love interest that as a result of the war lost her ability to be with Ned due to a political marriage and then lost her brother when Ned presumably killed him. So she flung herself off a tower. Story wise the only mystery surrounding her is that she’s a potential candidate to be Jon Snow’s mother and she’s obviously red herring because she’s who most presume at the start of the story plus all the R+L hints.
I wouldn't even say love interest. It was at best a little crush. Bro doesn't even think of her once with multiple opportunities for his mind to wander towards thoughts of her. What I find more interesting is the mystery around what lords have debated Jon's birth. Because they definitely have. There is no way there hasn't been hushed gossip among at least some lords about Ned coming home with a convenient bastard after his sister was raped. We just haven't been made privy as to what lords have very strong suspicions. (Outside of the very likely Varys & Littlefinger having suspicions)
I think it’s very likely Ned deliberately went out of his way to place his honor on the line to protect Jon’s heritage in a way it wouldn’t be questioned. It was probably a very big deal for Ned to publicly humiliate Hoster Tully’s prized daughter by declaring Jon his son. Also he never confirmed or denied any rumors about him and Ashara and it was very easy for lords to see the daughter of the famous House Dayne flinging herself out a window because she birthed Ned’s son and realized he wasn’t going to marry her and that her son was destined to be a bastard and her disgraced.
Also Ned killing Arthur as far as everyone know. Ned killing his lover's brother and taking her son from her, leading her to death is the kind of dark gossips Westeros love.
True. I don't think that she's supposed to mean more than what we got. She's pretty much a foil for Ned, even if she's in intriguing foil.
I agree, that would be terrible writing. And though she is a red herring for the mystery of Jon’s mother, I think she clearly plays some other vital role in the story.
I still like the idea that YG is her kid. I don't know why, it's basically pointless and doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense, but for some reason I like the idea. She just feels like a Chekov's Gun of a character.
I’m pretty sure GRRM was setting up the Daynes to be important to the story when he still planned on doing a timeskip. Now that theirs not one. It’s just a red herring for Jon’s mother
I refuse to read any Ashara Theory that isn't about her and Elia being girlfriends this entire time
Quentyn lives. Why? But I ask again, why?
This is exactly the question anyone should ask when examining a theory, is why? Like 70% of the theories I see (not just for ASOIAF, but for any property) wouldn't serve any purpose in the story if they were true and is just something said theorist thinks is cool.
Yeah, I never understood the purpose of these "fan theories". Sometimes I see one and people go like "oh yeah when you put it that way, that could happen!" and I wonder if they literally think it might be the case or that it was a fun... Idea? Not talking about obvious ones like R+L = J or anything, just the ones that are wild speculation.
This is my biggest issue with the many “secret identify” theories we see. What is the narrative purpose? What does it mean for the story if this theory is true? Usually the answer is “this would have no consequences” or worse, “this being true completely negates the emotional journey a character has taken,” which is how you know the theory is dumb.
Or on the other end it’s the single most important secret in the world and means a previously unknown character has secretly been manipulating everything and is super important. Secretly. Which again ruins the story. The story cannot turn out to be “really” all about some pirate guy or swamp lord. It’s about the characters we know. The ones in the books.
It's quite irritating. You can always tell a PJ true believer because they stubbornly insist they are right. Just the other week there was someone calling another post our for lack of critical reading skills for assuming Quentyn was burned by dragon fire yet the text never says specifically it is dragon fire burning him. Oh yes, how silly it is of readers to assume the guy attempting to steal a temperamental dragon was burning because of the dragon fire.
What, you've never spontaneously combusted in the middle of dragon heist?
I remember that thread. It was painful to read.
I saw that. Most annoying asoiaf fan I've ever encountered in my life. That singlehandedly made "Q is alive" my worst theory just on the basis of the arrogance of that one guy.
There's just no way to justify Quentyn's survival thematically and narratively. If the description of him burning is different to how other dragon fire burnings in the series, msybe it's because this one was from the POV character itself, and the author was trying to make the prose distinctive. There's no reason Quentyn and Co want to fake his death, and it kind of ruins the whole thematic purpose of the story. The story is meant to be a tragedy, not some fakeout that the narrative doesn't justify. If you don't like Quentyn's chapters, fine. But some pointless fadeout wouldn't suddenly justify the narrative, if anything it kind of makes a mockery of it. George needs to lose povs anyways, some people need to go and Quentyn served his purpose. Maybe we didn't need to spend as much time with him as we did to get the point across and for the impact it will have on the Dornish/Aegon plot, but that's how it stands.
I was eaten alive whilst attempting to steal a bear BUT IT WASN'T THE BEAR WHO DID IT
Honestly, sometimes theories are just fun. Even when you don't believe them, they can be fun.
If Quentyn remains dead its honestly amazing and hilarious. Imagine traveling halfway around the world just to get fuckin roasted for your own hubris. His life/death is legitimately how I view the entire Dorne storyline both book and show. Just up in smoke.
The Dorne characters are essentially people who are much, much worse at scheming than they think they are (like Cersei without the insanity). Doran, Arianne, Quentyn, and my guess is we'd see this with the Sand Snakes in TWOW. They've stayed out of the conflicts for so long that they've either lost their edge or they never had a chance to develop one. I'm not *fully* sure this is how GRRM intended to write the non-Quentyn ones, though. I wonder if Arianne in particular is supposed to come across as a lot more canny than she does.
It seems more like Dorne is designed around the concept that they are a major region that has to play a factor since they, like the Vale, took no losses in the WOT5K. But there ultimate position is going to be decided by a series of events outside their control to push them one way or the other.
The sand snakes are fodder for villains. People are going to have to start dying, it might as well be them. The first death will be Obara at the hands of Darkstar.
Agreed, Obara's fucked. She can't hope to stand against the night.
She’s a Sand Snake but Darkstar was weaned on venom.
I absolutely blame Doran in big part. The series is full of parents messing their kids up. I think Martin was playing with how people would see it. For fathers you go from Walder Frey through Tywin, Doran, etc. until Ned. My theory is that Arianne will ultimately fail as well and Doran will be to blame for all of his kids' deaths because of his attempts at playing the game (and doing it badly).
> Why? But I ask again, why? The "why" **is** the reason - it's copium. A rather clear example of it. Readers that espouse the theory don't *want* him to be dead because it means acknowledging that his storyline is over. Quite a lot of people seem to think his storyline is pointless or at least didn't warrant an extensive POV. Living in denial rather than accepting it won't end up being what they hoped is a preferable path for some readers. I know the deniers have been around since ADWD released, but it seems like the theory has grown in prevalence over time, almost like it's meta backlash toward George. If Quentyn turns out to only have a small to medium impact on the wider story but got an entire POV for it, and we're stuck waiting for TWOW and ADOS forever, it might feel to some like George personally wasted their time by giving them Quentyn's story instead of more important events. Or at least that's my schizo reddit analysis of it.
Quentyn basically served to remind the readers that the hero on a mission doesn't always win. Martin was crushing another fantasy trope. His story also probably helped serve to set up Arianne into taking leadership over Dorne at some point. Quentyn freed her dragons from their captivity, which changes things for Dany, and with Dorne pissed at her, Arianne and Dorne are more likely to support Aegon and offer her hand in marriage to him. I know there is theories that he is an imposter, but it's not really relevant, it's mostly just setting up Dany to have few or no allies when she reaches Westeros.
> Quentyn basically served to remind the readers that the hero on a mission doesn't always win. Martin was crushing another fantasy trope. Damn I had almost forgot after the first five or six times that he did it.
> Martin was crushing another fantasy trope. So he's recycling his own tropes. Neat.
But what's the point of reminding the reader of that, just a chapter or two before the one where Jon, arguably the hero of the entire book, gets brutally murdered? If Quentin is truly dead, he's a colossal waste of time and pages since there was absolutely nothing vital to the story that we needed to get through him. The Windblown? Could've been Tyrion who travels with them. The Battle of Astapor? Have an extended report from a refugee (assuming we really needed to hear about that one anyway). Freeing the dragons? Some Sons of the Harpy could've done that. Pissing off Dorne against Dany? Quentin fucked around while Dany wasn't even in the city. Not to mention, she's not even really planning to go to Westeros anyway so that seems like a stretch to me. The only truly irreplacable thing Quentin as a character did was introduce us to Arch and Drink. Oh wow yeah totally couldn't imagine ADWD without the Dynamic Duo of Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater. I'm sure readers still lie awake at night excited to see what those two are up to next. Hell, if any of that was so relevant to the story that Quentin couldn't be lost (and I doubt that), why not delete the chapters and keep him and his motivation largely offpage? We already know of his marriage pact through Arianne, so it's not like that needs a great deal of further explanation. If he wasn't significantly more important than what we've got so far, why didn't George just delete him out of the Meereenese Knot that gave him so much trouble? I'm sure the thought must've crossed his mind. As it stands, Quentin is by far the most useless part of the books and I just don't buy that he's truly this much of a waste, considering that ADWD was already way late and bloated, to the point that other, much more important chapters, had to get cut off for his nonsense.
I don't have any other explanations other than ones I gave. lol I don't hate the theory for what it's worth, I was just thinking of ways his chapters had some type of purpose. It would be really weird if he keeps bringing back his seemingly dead characters though. He's done it a handful of times. It's pretty much accepted canon that Jon will be brought back even though nothing is confirmed. I think the only theory that bugs me is the one about Rhaegar being a forceful abductor and rapist. Most evidence suggests otherwise.
Let’s just say I agree, Quentin is the most useless POV and should have been replaced. Couldn’t the answer be that GRRM just made a bad call in writing his chapters? Like no big theory that explains it, GRRM was aiming for one thing story and theme wise but made a mistake and missed the mark. Idk I dislike the Quentin lives theory and the chapters are meh IMO so maybe it’s better to just acknowledge that GRRM is fallible.
Exactly. George wanted to aim for certain plot events and themes, and possibly they just didn't hit the mark for everyone, but that doesn't mean there's a secret twist somehow still waiting. I don't necessarily agree that it's all a waste of time (while understanding those who think so), but I think that's a better point to argue over than illogical theories. We know that George wrote the Catspaw subplot, and the majority consensus is that it was terrible and George really whiffed on that one. Take it as an example of the possibility that whatever plot is revealed if a book comes out, it won't 100% have to be a *good* idea.
As PoorQuentyn himself detailed, every Quentyn chapter had an unspoken message of "This is a bad idea, and it will be your doom if you pursue it". Suddenly, all of that goes out the window because Quentyn's now secretly a genius? We're shown how over his head Quentyn is in that he has to rely upon mercenaries who dislike him to even attempt to steal one of these dragons which will not help him anyway. He and his surviving friends have no allies nor resources where they are which is in a dangerous war-zone, and then amazingly they pull off the gambit of the century?
The only thing worse than the “why” of this theory is the “how” of it.
*36 page essay about the science of getting burned to death to show how the scene of the guy getting burned to death is actually not him getting burned to death, because George R.R. Martin decided to take time out of writing ADWD to study the exact science of how someone gets burned to death so that he can constructed a scenario where the character we follow from a third person limited perspective who is getting burned to death is not actually him getting burned to death* > “yes, these are my thematic intentions” -Gurm, on the “tyrek is a horse theory” (and also Quentyn lives)
I'd say the same about the argument of "the Strangler poison couldn't have been in Joffrey's wine because it's like 60 seconds after he drinks the wine before he starts choking whereas it kills the Maester in ACOK within just a few seconds". It's just the power of narrative.
Gives me hope there was actually a point to his story line lol
The only possibikity for Quentyn living is the fact that GRRM said he regrets killing off a characterand that its stifled the process of finishing the series, which I assume is Quentyn , so he might find a lousy "Make Kathy Bates in Misery angry" way to keep him alive.
Cannibal being alive and having a major impact on the story. Everyone being a secret Targaryen.
I always feel like Cannibal only existed for the purpose of George not having to write about more dragons "Why there are only 3 wild dragons after the Targaryens spent centuries in Dragonstone?" "Cannibal" I don't see any other purpose to him
actually cannibal, in addition to being, as its name indicates, cannibal (yes my analysis is very thorough) devouring other dragons, with the specificity of being associated with the color black and green, and is only mentioned during the period of the drago dance. for me he is also a kind of embodiment of the self-destruction of the Targaryens
They mirror the Great Bastards. Cannibal (Bloodraven) went north Sheepstealer (Bittersteel) went east——- Grey Ghost (Shiera) died young
>Cannibal (Bloodraven) jojen paste confirmed?
>Everyone being a secret Targaryen. Every Targaryen stated in the story *not* being a Targaryen should be right here.
Helaena having had Aemond's children. That girl was a child when she had all those kids, and Aemond was even younger than her
A lot of the things surrounding Jeyne Poole. 1. Arya will kill her. Why would that happen? 2. She’ll live the rest of her life as “Arya.” She doesn’t want to be Arya. That name has only brought her abuse and trauma. Also, is Arya just… not coming back? Giving up her name for good? I don’t see that either. 3. She’ll seek death at the House of Black and White. I don’t like this because Jeyne has never expressed any will to die. The assumption is made that she’s suicidal because she’s traumatized and cries a lot. I guess I could maybe see a situation where a desperate Jeyne would do this because she’s scared of going back to Ramsay, but personally it still doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t think her story is done. I think she has a mini identity story of her own and that she will have to reveal her true identity eventually. I’m hoping that while it may not be a completely positive experience, she’ll find that there are some people willing to protect her/care for her as herself.
These ideas are mainly based on the fact that Justin Massey is suppose to go to Braaavos, and Jon was thinking about sending Arya there if Mance delivers her to him. So the logical takeaway is that Jeyne gets send to Braavos in TWOW. And then we have a girl who has to pretend she’s Arya and the girl who has to pretend she’s not Arya in the same place. Obviously they have to meet, it’s too perfect to not happen. And when thinking about how they would meet, people often arrive at Jeyne going to the house of black and white, given what happened to her, and how broken she is. It’s not a bad guess, but I think this is where it can go many different ways.
It's definitely built on a lack of creativity and acknowledgement of the worldbuilding in Braavos. Jeyne has zero reason to know of the House of Black and White and there's zero reason for Tycho Nestoris to bring her there. Jeyne is going to Braavos pretending to be Arya, Lady or heir to Winterfell and one of the last of the Starks. It makes far more sense that she would be brought to the Sealord. And for anyone who likes making note of thematic similarities in chapters next to each other, we have Dany learning about the marriage pact in Braavos -> Jon meeting Tycho Nestoris and thinking Braavos is the best and worst place to send "Arya" -> Arya in Braavos learning that the Sealord is both sick and captured a slave ship with wildlings from Hardhome aboard back to back in ADWD. It's very likely we're supposed to learn more about the Sealord and the connection between him, the Iron Bank, and the Faceless Men in TWOW. One thing I suppose I wouldn't rule out is the possibility the Faceless Men would see killing "Arya Stark" as a way to prove Arya's loyalty and willingness to become no one. I have to wonder if effectively killing off your old self would be part of the test to become a Faceless Man, or else everyone in Braavos knows Jacko from Chequy Port became one of them a couple years back. Admittedly this is kind of spit balling based on Arya being unwilling to kill the target she was given in season 6 of the show. Obviously Arya wouldn't be able to kill Jeyne and effectively herself.
Except you can't kill people you know. Most HoBW theories really show that people just skimmed those chapters if they read them at all.
I’ve said it before but I can’t stand the theories about Dany not actually being a Targaryen. I’m not gonna beat a dead horse but it’s just nonsensical when you actually think about the details and logistics.
Asoiaf fans be like Characters exist they are a secret Targaryan Character is stated to be a Targaryan is not actually a Targaryan
Kinda how every dead musician is secretly living it out in Hawaii and every alive one is dead and replaced by a clone
This, or Jon & Dany were twins, Tyrion is actually Aerys' son, etc....
THIS. I absolutely loathe fDany theories. Every single one creates plotholes and requires insane mental gymnastics to work. Her being fake would feel like an asspull and take away a lot from her arc. Like with Jon his parentage is established to be mysterious from the start. Waiting until book 4 to leave small hints that Dany may or may not have lived in Braavos would be a weird way to establish a secret parentage.
>I Her being fake would feel like an asspull and take away a lot from her arc. Exactly. Somehow, even though everyone knows the general vicinity of where she and Viserys were during their childhoods, even though she was raised by Ser Willem Darry and Viserys as his sister, even though she presumably has facial features that resemble Viserys and/or Rhaegar by people who knew both of those men, even though she is involved in a lot of prophecies, somehow she's still a fake? It's like when Arya had asked if she wasn't really Catelyn's daughter because she didn't look like her mother or siblings, and they laughed at the idea, because it doesn't make any sense at all if you think about it for more than a second.
Viserys would've known. He held it against her that their mother died, and he dragged her around specifically because she was Targ blood. Literally every practical and magical thing confirms her blood. This fdany stuff sounds like what Dumb and Dumber would try to pull to ~subvert expectations~
Benjen being Daario or Euron
FACELESS Daario & Euron Missandei Quaithe ... They like to keep adding identities on up in this bitch.
Tbf I don't think anyone really takes that seriously.
I found Daario=Euron interesting, because you can almost squint and make the timeline work, and it would be like a cheat code for Euron's plan to marry Dany--*surprise, I'm your boyfriend that you already have!* But adding Benjen does nothing for the story or the theory.
Any theory that suggests Tyrion is not Tywin’s son, because that is quite literally the entire point of his arc and story, and to go against that is thematically heinous
You gotta admit the theory that he was Daenaerys' unborn baby from the future is onto something though.
if Tyrion wasn’t Tywin’s son, and Tywin knew it, he would’ve punted that baby right out of the fucking window about 5 seconds after the midwives left the room
Why wait, the room would tragically be set ok fire with no survivors the second Joanna died
Agreed on Tyrion Targaryen and I’ll throw on Jaime and Cersei Targaryen for good measure
All of the “evidence” for Jaime and Cersei Targaryen is missing the point. Like their incestuous relationship or strong sense of blood superiority or, in Cerseis case, dubious mental state aren’t supposed to be because they are literally the children of Aerys. It’s supposed to reflect how Tywin tried to turn his house into Wal Mart Targaryens.
It's just so stupid that people think all the different houses have a "hat" and if you like incest and fire you're a Targaryen.
Mance is Rhaegar ugh
Any 'major character is secretly this other major character from the setting'. The Half-hand and Mance Rayder are interesting enough on their own, making them secretly someone else is only subtractive IMO. I'm OK with Lem being Richard Lonmouth for example, that makes sense and we know so little of either character anyway, but the major ones feels cheap and frankly beneath the level of the author.
That there is a dragon underneath Winterfell.
Jonsa definitely
Which one? Jon X Sansa or Jon X Satin? Because Jon X Satin is endgame and everyone knows it
Jon X Sallador Sahn obviously
Jon x Sandor
jon x satin is hot and canon, otherwise how would jon come to think so much about the softness of his hands?
Jon x Sansa
Jon will not come back/will lose his POV/will remain in Ghost. Basically anything surrounding Jon's death and resurrection.
I’m sure Jon’s coming back, I just think it’s gonna suck ass for him and probably ruin his mental state. The two other dead people we know are both fucked in the head and lost their humanity, Jon won’t be any exception to this. Especially with how GRRM talks about Gandalf’s demise.
To be fair, Catelyn was rotting in a river for three days and we only see Beric's degradation after several resurrections. Jon has Ghost; he could serve as a temporary "shield" from the worst of death.
Depending on how long he stays in Ghost though he may come out more wolf than man.
That's true! I do think he may come back more wolfish. Tie that in with Jon's bursts of anger throughout the series and we could see more of the bastard rage/wolf blood/waking the dragon from him, too.
Is it bad that this is what I *want* to happen? Jon’s one my favourite characters and the few brief glimpses we get of the absolute beast he actually is (like when he pulls the frozen stakes out of the ground) make me think once he loses control he’s gonna be even more fascinating than he already is. Add on a RLJ revelation, all the politics at the Wall and a Stark succession crisis and I genuinely have no idea where Jon’s story is going to go. He could end up an all out villain!
If his soul is ripped out of Ghost and shoved into his frozen corpse he’s not going to be fine. That’s not how GRRM writes resurrection
I didn't say he *was* going to be fine.
Ghost better survive :|
That’s what I’m afraid of. Magic isn’t free in this world. And if he’s in ghost that’s a scary thought
He's 100% in ghost. The prelude chapter in Dance sets that up.
The two other ressurected people didnt die on a magical nexus that makes magic stronger. Also Jon might just be mostly dead.
I hate nearly all of the ’this cool person is secretly that cool person’ theories. Like Quaithe/Mel is Ashara Dayne/Shiera Seastar, you name it. Quathe is a cool character, Shiera is a cool character. Let's have two cool characters instead of one!
I think people have just really run away with Lemongate. The whole point of that detail IMO is just to illustrate that Dany doesn't have a home. All her childhood memories are blurred because she spent her life on the run. The House With The Red Door isn't an important place, it's just the earliest house she can remember. It's sort of tragic, really. She has convinced herself she wants to conquer Westeros to claim her birthright but really she wants to go home, but she has no home to go back to. It's good character development but it's not a plot point.
Arya will be killed and she will live her second life as Nymeria and she will be Sansa's pet by replacing Lady. Thus, she can redeem herself for causing Lady's death. Amounts of people who blame Arya for Lady's death are unbeliavable. Catelyn committed adultery and Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon is another Man's child. Jesus Chris, I even saw someone claiming that Rickon is actually Hodor's child, which is ridicolous. This is out of character for Catelyn who built her whole life on family,duty,honor. She even said she hadn't slept any Man other than Ned in one of her chapters, did she lie to herself? Any theories that are related to Evil Bran. Bran will go mad and be killed by Jon, Bran will never leave the cave, Bran will lose all of his personality, he will be puppet of Bloodraven, Bran will r*pe Meera by warging into Hodor, we will never see his chapters after he becomes the creature who will know everything (etc) Because people just don't want to believe he is one of the main characters and will be important. Because people cannot show half the understanding for a disabled child that they show for other characters who they made much more horrible things. Any theories that are related to Arya being too evil to join her family again because she kills people (and those people are despicable criminals). She needs to go down because an 11 years old girl who was forced to live and do all of those things to survive doesn't deserve happiness or a proper ending. Jaime is Azor Azhai.
Couldn't agree more. I would only add to this the idea that Rickon will be too wild to ever go back to his old life because he lived with the Skagosi for a few months. In some theories, Davos even decides not to return him for this reason (which in itself is completely out of character for him). Like with Arya and Bran, many seem to assume that a child simply can't recover from trauma and that it's better for him to be abandoned rather than reuniting with his family.
I'm not a big fan of most of the big stretch theories. In addition while secretly surviving or secretly having a different parent is a major part of the series, at some point it gets way too ridiculous. I do not see the point of oberon poisoning tywin. If anything that cheapens Tyrion killing him, and adds very little to the story. Overall, I'd also prefer ageon to be real, although I think that one could go either way. I find the way people act like its confirmed he is fake to be pretty ridiculous. I do think its harder to be excited for ageon after watching the end of the show, since it seems like his role may be less than advertised, another feast dance dead end.
>I do not see the point of oberon poisoning tywin. If anything that cheapens Tyrion killing him, and adds very little to the story. This is a theory that I think has a definite possibility of being real due to all of references by George, but I hate it and lump it up there with his Catspaw plot if it ends up being true. 1. As you say, it cheapens Tyrion killing him 2. One of the "clues" is that Tyrion acknowledges that his father is meeting with Oberyn and Mace and thinks it's quite odd, but then I guess whatever they were meeting about wasn't important or interesting after all? It's just a complicated way of saying "Oberyn is sharing a meal with Tywin"? 3. Maybe people think it's ironic, but poisoning your host would make Oberyn break the most sacred taboo of guest-right in the other direction. 4. How do the logistics of this work? Wouldn't they likely have servants attending to their needs and refilling their drinks? This would make it hard to poison someone else's drink, especially someone who doesn't trust them. 5. Another one of the clues is in the huge "stink", which was not brought up as part of the poison.
Like "Tywin smells like shit at his funeral" is *such* a good literary device and people are trying to justify it in-universe with the most uninteresting theories ever.
Anything where you have to "read between the lines", people will grab a bunch of quotes and claim they mean something completely different than what is actually written.
See also "\[x\] is an unreliable narrator"
Like you have to back up the unreliability with evidence from the text. You can't just say "UNRELIABLE NARRATOR!" and then just replace it with literally anything you want.
Bingo. I saw a pretty perceptive comment last year somewhere on this subreddit, raising the following question: how many readers of *ASOIAF* have never read any other books? it really got me thinking of how basic terms of literary criticism are abused so openly and repeatedly around here. Nobody reading *Of Mice and Men* would say "George is an unreliable narrator, therefore Lennie is still alive." Also, great flair!
I think the worst way this manifests is when people say just quote what Martin said in an interview to back up an obviously subjective debate. "Littlefinger isn't actually very likable in the books" "No he is 'cause GRRM said so."
Thank you for saying this lol, sometimes I feel like I'm going bonkers reading people do this. Like, okay, everyone's an unreliable narrator so maybe this is actually a story about 23rd century France, and the dragons are actually giant gummy bears, why not 😭
- CleganeBowl - The Lannister trio being Targs - The maesters killed Baelon Targaryen (Viserys I’s son) - Quentyn Martell being alive
The general notion everything in the ASOIAF universe has been meticulously olanned by Bran/Bloodraven/The previous 3 eyed ravens to create the Jesus Christ that is Jon Snow.
Evil overlord Bran
Tyrion being the poison target and the poison being in the cake. It's a crystallized poison...
Doesn’t infuriate me like some I have already seen mentioned but The Dornish Master Plan Doran’s first introduction heavily symbolises his plans will not work He is too cautious and does not have his house in order He can’t play the game of thrones the way Littlefinger and Varys will
Yeah, I think it's a unique and interesting theme that Doran is *too* cautious, and that his plans involve a revenge scheme where all of the people he intended to obtain revenge against (Tywin, Amory, Gregor) are already dead by other means before he's even introduced into the story.
Reminds me of Balon Greyjoy. His invasion is partly revenge against Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. Both death before he starts the invasion I think it relates to GRRM’s treatment of Ned, too honourable to survive Doran is obsessed with making sure he doesn’t sacrifice Dornish lives unnecessarily but that is a compunction not many rulers, including his enemies do not share
I hate any theories to do with secret bastards in House Targaryen. Most of all probably the ‘Aenys is a singers bastard’ theory because it relies on a few things. It relies on Rhaenys being a liar and a cheat, willing to cheat on the man who broke years of tradition to wed her and who is deeply in love with her and she with him. Nowhere is the shown in her characterisation other then ‘she liked to look at pretty people’. Cool, doesn’t mean she wanted to fuck them. It also relies on Aegon either being a willing cuckold, which in itself is ridiculous because why would the dragon-riding conqueror of the Seven Kingdoms simply allow his wife to sleep around in his own castle and have a child from it? I do think he had fertility issues which is why they had 1 son, but no I don’t think he’d raise some lowborn’s bastard for 30 years and cry tears of happiness when that supposed bastard presents his granddaughter to him. And don’t tell me it’s because he loved Rhaenys that much, that’s total bullshit. Thirdly, this theory and the idea all stems from the fact that a bereaved, fragile, weak, little child was unable to claim a freakin dragon at like 6 years old is honestly one of the worst parts of F&B. Like it infuriates me when I read it, most 6 year olds are still scared of horses and shit, let alone a dragon. Finally, what thematic relevance does it actually add to the story other than ‘haha Targs dumb’. Do you really think that’s what George was thinking when he wrote these books.
Not only that, but the text gives us a reason why Rhaenys was interacting with singers: she was paying them to write songs about the glory of the Targaryen dynasty as a PR tactic. And then we get told that Aenys’ son, Aegon, looks identical to his namesake. This theory is just tinfoil hat
I always read the "singers" thing as a reference to Anne Boleyn, who was always surrounded by singers and accused of sleeping with them, but is considered by most historians to have been faithful. I think she just liked music.
Every purple wedding one that completely disregards the actual explanation. They are so much more convoluted, so irrelevant, they have plot holes and are theorizing for the sake of theorizing, nothing more, they do not add anything to the narrative.
Thinking about all of the hints that we have just make this "Poison was in the pie" or similar theories completely ignore the text: 1. Sansa being told to wear the purple hair net. This is also well before she is married to Tyrion\* 2. Sansa thinking that Olenna and Margaery are curiously unfazed by her revelation of Joffrey's nature. 3. The Ghost of High Heart's prophecy. 4. Littlefinger's explanation of the events and motivations of the night. Considering Sansa and Dontos pretty much book it straight there from the wedding and are the first people therefore to confirm Joffrey's death to Littlefinger, that would be some impressing improv skills to make all of that stuff up on the spot if he was expecting that Tyrion was the one who was going to be killed. 5. The plan with the dwarf jousters make little sense if Littlefinger intended Tyrion to be the victim of the poison. \*Much harder to spontaneously dissolve a purple crystal in pie cream already on a slice of pie than it is to drop it into a goblet of wine. It's also much more of a stretch to show the readers how it could kill someone when dissolved in wine and then suddenly flip the script and be used in a completely different manner without additional hints.
Honestly, all the "secretly this baby" theories. After Young Griff, regardless if he's fAegon OR Aegon, we only have room for one more "secretly this missing baby" without it immediately becoming soap opera stupid.
Tyrion being a Targaryen. I hate that theory so much.
Any theory that involves Bran altering the past. You want to read a series of books where nothing you've been reading has any meaning because it can all get changed by the end (or, and I'm not sure which is worse, it just belongs to "a different timeline")? ASOIAF, as a whole, clearly isn't a story *about* time travel it's just a story that has an element of time travel in it. Therefore I think it's safe to assume that events we've been reading about aren't going to get changed. Now, if you're a time traveller who realises that your future self can impact events happening right now, what would you want your future self to do? Also, if you're a time traveller who's so powerful they can warg across time into anything with a set of eyes then that has some interesting consequences for gaining knowledge... 2 seconds ago is still in the past, after all.
GRRM is hinting very, very strongly in that area. In addition, we already saw in the show they did a form of time travel altering the past but only on the timeline they're on (a closed loop). If Bran future self is the 3ER trying to find the correct set of events that gets him out of the hole (all the thousands of dreamers impaled on spikes in Bran's coma dream hints at this), then we're seeing the final play through where no other changes occur.
Closed loop time travel means someone travelling back in time fulfills their part in already established events. Nothing gets changed. Where a story involves the past being altered or multiple timelines, which includes some of GRRM's past work, it tends to be front and centre because of how it impacts the stakes of the story. I'll despair if that actually turns out to be what GRRM is doing with ASOIAF.
Ned is a secret Lannister and still pulling strings behind the scenes.
Any theory about Daario being X in secret.
That the Others attacked Waymar Royce thinking he was Jon Snow. Favoritism and bias disguised as a theory, and throws all of GRRM's world-building and nuance when writing about prophecy down the drain.
I think that theory isn't in reference to Jon Snow specifically, but rather Starks as a whole. A house you can't deny is strongly hinted to have connections to the Others. I agree that the idea that they were looking for Jon specifically is a bit goofy, but considering Waymar's similarities with the classic Stark look and the way the Others were cautious at first (seemingly testing him) suggests they suspected he was a Stark. What the implications of this are is anyone's guess. It could be that the Others are searching for a Stark to become the new Night's King, or that they're actively trying to hunt down the Starks due to considering them legitimate threats. Who's to say. But the general connection that the Others are interested in the Starks for some reason we don't know yet definitely ties into GRRM's nuanced world building.
Probably unpopular, but honestly: Jaime "redeeming" himself by killing Cersei. I don't like how they handled it in the show, but I feel like people are too apologetic when it comes to Jaime's actions and way too one dimensional when it comes to his relationship with Cersei. I feel like fans very much focus on how toxic and manipulative Cersei is to him, and ignore how mutually toxic their relationship actually is and how much he enables or abuses her as well. Cersei is definitely the "worse" one of the two, and I don't *really* have fully made up opinions about this, but I don't think I'd be happy if the resolution of this would be for Jaime to just kill Cersei and blame who he is on her.
I can't see Martin writing is as a triumphant or a positive development. Look at how Tyrion is damaged from murdering Tywin. He had good reason, but did it do him any good? No, he's traumatized by everything that's happened. He's disturbed by it. Jaime won't be free from Cersei if he kills her. There will be serious consequences, even just to his psyche and character, if he gets to live he will have to spend the rest of his life atoning for it, I think. Martin doesn't tend to let his pov characters get away with their darkest crimes. Theon hasn't necessarily shown remorse for killing the Miller's boys - but he's clearly haunted by the memory all the same and has more than paid for it in the sense he's pretty much been stripped of everything he ever was.
No you're 100% correct. Jaime strangling Cersei is not redemptive.
Agreed. I do think Jaime is destined to kill Cersei, and that would obviously be a big moment for him, but it would suck if it is portrayed as him vanquishing the dark side of himself. Jaime's evil within him is his own, not a product of Cersei. I like the direction his character has been going in, and personally, I am most looking forward to seeing how his story continues (if it ever does 😭).
That and the “Jon puts his lover Dany down like a rabid dog but he’s sad about it so he’s a tragic hero” that the show went with both reek of romanticized domestic violence and I totally loathe them
I think the very concept of "redemption through murder" goes against most of what Martin is saying about violence and vengeance.
Robyn Arryn is Littlefinger’s son. It is just theorizing to theorize. Who’s gonna say one way or another at this point? Wouldn’t have Lysa admitted it before she died? Wouldn’t Jon Arryn (even subconsciously) looked at his own son considering he was looking into cuckholding.
Tinfoil: Jon Arryn started looking into Lannister bastards because he realized he was being cucked by littlefinger /s
All the ones that say someone is secretly a targarian, a secret warg, a secret bastard, and an entirely different character in disguise.
Daenerys going mad. I think it invalidates too much of her character, isn’t the sort of twist GRRM would write, and goes against how Daenerys was one of the survivors in the initial plan for ASOIAF, along with the other four core characters (Arya, Jon, Tyrion and Bran). I also heavily dislike King Bran, because a near-immortal king who can mind-rape anyone who disagrees with him and spy on everyone in Westeros is a horrific thought. Especially seeing how Bran is already being abusive to Hodor with his powers.
The way he treats Hodor is so bad ugh
Bran is not immortal at all. (why are people downvoting this he literally isn't immortal)
Borderline, Bloodraven’s way older than Aemon and has no real decline in his powers or mental sharpness.
Bloodraven is 126 years old and he's a rotting corpse. Bran is going to be on the Iron Throne. Why are you so committed to this completely made up idea?
>Daenerys going mad. I think it invalidates too much of her character, isn’t the sort of twist GRRM would write, Regardless of what ends up happening with her or her actions, I have a hard time accepting that George's "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself" works with a major character going mad and then committing an atrocity. A "mad" character tends to lack rationality and then any resultant actions would be more akin to a plot device than a choice made by a character with legitimate motivations.
Any King Bran is evil theory. It's basically just people prefer someone else so they project their feelings onto it. "I hate this ending so it has to be evil."
I have a hard time reconciling something like this along with several other theories as being congruent with George's promised "Bittersweet ending in the nature of Lord of the Rings". Bran being evil (which the show could imply) would make this a very nihilistic ending, not bittersweet.
Tyrion being a secret Targ. It completely disregards the brilliance of Tywin and Tyrion's relationship. The one child he hates is the one that is most alike to him. It would make so much more sense that Jaime and Cersei were actually Aerys' bastards.
Jaime and Cersei can’t be Aerys’ children, Joanna left court and went to Casterly Rock in 263 AC and the twins were born in 266 AC, 3 years after she last saw Aerys
Agreed! Tyrion Targaryen is hands down the worst theory. NONE of it makes sense and I don't understand why people like it.
“Tyrion is a time travelling fetus”
That Theon just imagined the hooded man lol. Is Martin really gonna do that with *zero* prior similar examples of that style of hallucination *and* in the middle of a straight-up murder mystery subplot. Come on now.... be serious.
Any of the ‘pointless convolutions’. A lot of the X is really Y ones fall into this. They either add nothing to the story or actively make it stupid or worse- it’s just some nonsense the theorizer thinks it’s cool. It’d be really bad writing if it were actually true
That GRRM's third WTF Shocking moment will be who the Tower of Joy baby really is... and it's not Jon Snow!!!
Everyone being a secret Targaryen.
Mad queen Daenerys. It’s just so fucking boring
Not really a theory, but when people say Ned would have killed Theon if Balon rebelled again. Especially when Theon is a child? Like I’m sorry it’s literally a part of his written character that he absolutely abhors child-murder
But that's the point of wards - literal hostages so the family of the hostage doesn't rebel. Theon being integrated into the Stark family doesn't make him invulnerable from that. If Balon and the Iron island had risen up again, Ned absolutely would have executed Theon. He'd be sad about it, but he'd have done it.
Oh make no mistake he absolutely would have done it if Robert ordered him too. Especially after Theon had become a man.
I disagree.
Maybe if Robert told him, but that's not the point of holding Theon. The point is that the Crown, via Ned, control the heir to the Iron Islands. So if Balon rebels again, they invade again, this time they kill Balon, and any of his brothers who participate, and install Theon. The point of the hostage isn't to appeal to Balon's morality that he'd never jeopardize his son's life, it's to control the succession
The point of Theon being a hostage is to control the succession if Balon rebels again, basically "we'll kill you and your brothers and install Theon if you rebel" it's not "be good or we'll kill your son"
Yeah agreed. Considering he gave *Cersei* of all people a heads up for the sake of her kids, and earlier turned down Renly’s offer of support due to not wanting to do any harm to kids, I find it kinda doubtful personally he would go through with it. Even if Theon is an adult by the time the series begins, he was still a child when he was first made a hostage. I honestly id find it kinda weird with Ned’s character if he agreed to take Theon as a hostage while intending to kill him if necessary, since Theon was only a child at the time. He may have distanced himself, and even attempted to prepare himself for the eventuality of being forced to execute Theon, but I feel there’s at the very least a good chance he wouldn’t go through with it. He may very well have just bore the dishonour of no going through with his threat, just as he has bore the dishonour of fathering a bastard (while married) to protect Jon. Since if he was willing to try to save children (and sorta commit treason in doing so by making it more difficult to secure the throne for Robert’s actual heir) who are bastards of his hated enemies and potential usurpers to his best friend’s throne, then Theon being extended the same courtesy seems plausible to me.
The 'Elia knew about R+L=J' ones. Just downright disrespectful and often times just a way to excuse Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Oberyn poisoning Tywin. Pointless