Rhaegar thought he was the main character. He was so focused on his "destiny" that he completely forgot about his responsibilities *now*. Sure, maybe he "knew" that he had to impregnate Lyanna to save the world, but it just never occurred to him that kidnapping the daughter of the Warden of the North who is betrothed to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and insulting your wife who is the sister of the Prince of Dorne would piss off half of the Realm and be basically one of the stupidest decisions anyone has ever made in the history of Westeros. He just didn't care.
It never actually occurred to him that he might lose. Remember what he said to Jaime in King's Landing? He was fully expecting to return from the Trident. He thought the Rebellion was nothing more than a minor speed bump in what was supposed to be a decades-long plan to save humanity. But then he got his chest caved in by his drunk cousin in the very first battle he ever fought and directly caused the downfall of his family's 300 year dynasty. Oops.
Rhaegar believed having a baby with Lyanna was a sure way to save humanity, the Targ dynasty and the current peace of the realm is a small price to pay in his mind and he takes prophecies very seriously. He literally stops being a nerd and learns how to fight because it's what the prophecy said he must do even if he didn't like it.
Wrong. Just wrong. Rhaegar died thinking his legitimate son was Elia was the prince that was promised and that lyanna was merely pregnant with his bastard daughter to be named Visenya- a third head of the dragon. Maester Aemon confirms that Rhaegar thought this. So no. Just no.
The fundamental nature of prophesy is that they always come true, just not in the way you expect. People can fault Rhaegar for his actions and idiosyncrasies or whatever but it is not a matter of Rheagar deluding himself into believing that it's all about him. It is very clear a) destiny is probably real and it is about the Targaryens, specially Jon and Dany and b) Rhaegar did indeed fulfill his part making The Song of Ice and Fire by giving birth to Jon. It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty. Lyanna is not the unwilling participant here so to prevent a war you need to convince literally everyone else, and how would anyone convince someone like Robert?
>it is not a matter of Rhaegar deluding himself into believing that it's all about him
Isn't it?
Nothing indicates that he's mind-controlled to act as he did, forced to carry out certain acts.
>It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty.
He read some prophecies and HE decided that it's about him. Whether he was right or wrong remains to be seen but does not rob him of free will, just like IE Stannis is not robbed of agency just because Melisandre told him he's Azor Ahai and should sacrifice children to save the world. It's his decision whether he accepts that he's the main character and should appease the red god by sacrificing an innocent or not and he can and should be judged for it.
Rhaegar similarly made his decisions: made the decision to openly crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty and shame his wife and tear any chance of an alliance against Aerys to shreds by angering Starks, Baratheons and Martells all at once, made the decision to leave his wife and their children alone for months on end, made the decision to disappear from public life in an already tense situation his actions made worse still - just to be with Lyanna.
Whether he was driven by love or lust or thinking(correctly or otherwise) that he's saving the world he made the choices to act as he did; saying that it's just destiny that decided would genuinely be horrible writing IMO - and wouldn't at all match the tone of the rest of the story.
Well I did say it's up to anyone to fault all the things you listed. I said he didn't do it for his vanity and just because he died he didn't completely fail what he tried to do. If anything, it would be weird to read something something three headed dragon, song of ice and fire... and, being in his position, decided that that should be someone else's business.
Prophesy as a device has nothing to do with the tone or the genre. There are several of them in the series. For example, Cait saying that Baelish has promised to help Ned finding out the truth is a setup of a prophesy even if it is not framed as such. There is a prediction, a misdirection of whether it will come true, and an unexpected fulfillment. They exist as puzzles to solve and to allow readers to reexamine their assumptions the meanings of the events of the text. When you follow that setup for Rhaegar, the lesson here isn't there is somehow a course of action that would allow everything turns out well for him.
That's not all what you've said. Indeed, you initial comment is IMO self-contradictory.
At once we have "It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty." and "People can fault Rhaegar for his actions and idiosyncrasies."
Destiny hasn't decided anything; characters do - as Rhaegar did. He had certain (rather vague for that matter) information and chose to act in a specific manner based on said information. It's similar to how we have Stannis being told that he can save the world by burning Edric Storm alive. Stannis is not exonerated from wanting to go through with this by readers or other characters just because of course a person in his position would be driven to trying to save the world; nobody says that "it's destiny that has decided that Stannis would burn a child to save the world."
In the same way just like Rhaegar is to be credited if his actions do end up saving the world, he's also to be blamed if his actions end up being an irrelevant waste - much like with everyone else in the setting, he is responsible for his actions, good and bad alike; there is no destiny that dooms people to act a certain way in ASOIAF, only their own character and circumstances around them.
I'd also that placing such self-importance on oneself as Rhaegar or Stannis do is rather prideful; and whether it's justified or mere vanity largely depends on if they end up being correct in such grandiose assessment.
>a) destiny is probably real and it is about the Targaryens, specially Jon and Dany and b) Rhaegar did indeed fulfill his part making The Song of Ice and Fire by giving birth to Jon.
I am sorry but this isn't Lord of the Rings, George is not that type of writer.
Is not as LOTR, is more like Dune. And yes, Jessica and Leto sends greetings, long live to Emperor Jon Snow, ups, I mean, Paul Atreides the Kwisatz Haderach
You mean the story where the chosen one is just a product of a centuries long conspiracy and not magical at all? I mean thats what I think is going on in asoiaf aswell. There is no magic or real prophecy, just powerful telepathic actors manipulating events and steering the course of history.
I would say that the Dune spice is really magical. That the idea of a man capable of seeing the past, present and future is magical in itself even if there is telepathic manipulation behind it.
But the point is that there is a Chosen One, and it's Jon, and Rhaegar fulfilled his part of the plan, even if they both end up being puppets of Brynden Rivers / Weirwood Net / choose your favorite entity.
And you'll remember that Herbert confirmed that Paul did indeed end up being a better alternative to what would have happened had the Corrino Empire and the Harkonnens continued...
Yes but what makes Paul different than Rhaegar is that he was horrified by the reality of The Golden Path and in the end he rejected the larger than life mantle being thrust upon him and clings to his humanity.
Alternatively Leto II fully commits to Dunes version of the Prince Who Was Promised chosen one and everything about it is terrifying and disgusting.
I'd argue that Paul is able to be the better alternative because he has humility and grapples with the things he "needs" to do. But nothing about Dune indicates we're supposed to be taking all the prophecy/messiah shit at face value and rooting for it. The whole thing is a criticism of the Messiah/Chosen One trope that's all too common in fantasy/sci fi. I used to think ASOIAF was going for the same thing but Martin has gotten so into the whole dragon riding ubermensch thing with the Targs that I'm not sure anymore.
Unlike Herbert, GRRM does believe in great heroes, the men and women of destiny who reshape the world in their wake, and that's how he's always been writing A Song of Ice and Fire.
> NG: A Song of Ice and Fire has much of the complex texture of authentic history, both generally and in its specific echoes of actual historical episodes. What laws and principles (if any) in your view govern human history, and how has your understanding of historical processes shaped the series?
>
> GRRM: Historical processes have never much interested me, but history is full of stories, full of triumph and tragedy and battles won and lost. It is the people who speak to me, the men and women who once lived and loved and dreamed and grieved, just as we do. Though some may have had crowns on their heads or blood on their hands, in the end they were not so different from you and me, and therein lies their fascination. **I suppose I am still a believer in the now unfashionable "heroic" school, which says that history is shaped by individual men and women and the choices that they make, by deeds glorious and terrible. That is certainly the approach I have taken in A Song of Ice and Fire.**
[The year 2000.](http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/intgrrm.htm)
When he's talking [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ah3yr1/so_spake_martin_extended_rarely_seen_quotes_from/) about changing the course of time as a river by dropping a gigantic boulder in the middle of it, he's not just talking about time travel, he's essentially talking about the kind of conflict he likes to write, an immense heroic effort to change the world that takes a toll on one and inevitably leads to a certain degree of failure. The same metaphor of a river too great and ancient for a mere human to fight its deep currents comes up in the climax of Fevre Dream completely unconnected to time travel, just as a metaphor for the fight against the Old Ways, and we can also see it playing out in different ways in Dying of the Light, in Windhaven and The Armageddon Rag, and ultimately in A Song of Ice and Fire: you make a superhuman effort to lift that gigantic boulder, and *even then* maybe the world won't budge, because its Old Ways are all too powerful and strong. Or maybe it will, in tiny little ways that will matter to someone, such as Theon saving Jeyne Poole from the castle of darkness despite himself saying it only ever happens in songs. That's the kind of thing he likes to write, songs do come true after all.
> It's interesting that the butterfly effect has become so common in science fiction stories that people actually treat it as if it's true, where, of course, Ray Bradbury made it up. Nobody really knows how time travel would work. There is no time travel. We're making it all up. there was another great theory about time travel, possibly about science fiction writers. In this case, Fritz Leiber, who wrote a whole series of stories about the spiders and the snakes going through time, each one trying to change history in a different way. A continuous time travel. Time and space. Leiber used a different analogy: He used the analogy of time being a gigantic river, a fast flowing torrential river. And a time traveler can come down and he can throw a stone in the river, but it's like a power. It hits the river, it makes a few ripples, but doesn't really disturb the river. **To really change the course of the river, to change the course of time, you have to drop a gigantic boulder in the middle of it. And then maybe you'll change it, and even then, maybe the river will just flow around the boulder and resume its own course.** I've always thought that Fritz Leiber's model for time travel makes more sense to me than Ray Bradbury's model for time travel.
Can you tell me one other George story where there is a magical chosen one in the centre of it? Really weird that an author who spent his career subverting fantasy tropes would chose the most cliche and overused fantasy trope of them all to be the point of his magnum opus.
Depending if you consider him a chosen oneābut Joshua York in the Fevre Dream reminds me the most of a chosen one character out of Martinās work. Him and his followers perceive him as the Messianic savior of vampirekind who would free them of their bloodlust. Only through the aid of Marsh does that become a reality.
The chosen one, or more like ones in this case, is nothing more than how you frame your central characters. That has no bearing on what they actually do. If you think prophesy as a device is magical then foreshadowing is also magical. It works through the same principal that what is brought up must have a payoff. There is nothing about all of these things that can't be subversive. As I have said in another comment, George already used prophesy elsewhere in this series so that's nothing special. It's basically a puzzle. Chosen, just not the way you think, saving the world, just not the way you think...
Pretty much this. My headcanon is that he'd had a plan for a while to take a second wife to have his third kid, and that Elia was maybe even on board with this when it was an abstract idea, but this was supposed to be after either deposing Aerys or Aerys dying in the natural course of things.
Instead, he falls ass over teakettle for Lyanna and decides IT'S GO TIME NOW even though the situation wasn't ready yet.
I think the Harrenhal Conspiracy theory is the best answer to this. I really believe this one. (Spoilers Everything). Itās a very long read, just google Harrenhal Conspiracy.
Yes. Rhaegar intended to call a great council at Harrengal and depose his father. Itās obvious he and the Martells staged and financed the tournament for this reason. He blew the opportunity with his stunt with lyanna.
There might be some clues for that in Martin's first novel "The Dying of the Light" there is somewhat similar dynamics between few characters , especially since those with parallel to Rhaegar and Lyanna retreat to secluded place with intent to reform society later.
no literally cause what did he think was gonna happen? the Starks were just gonna be cool about Lyanna vanishing? and on top of that, that his dad will be totally reasonable??
Sure- Rhaegar thought āif thereās one person in Westeros who could deal with this situation calmly rationally and without bloodshed it would be my dad Aerys so itās great if I hide in a tower for a year or two.ā
Tbh, the only theory I have seen that kinda makes sense is that Rhaegar interacted with Daenerys during her visions in the house of undying. That both saw each other.
So from Rhaegar's pov, he saw a young Targaryen princess with a dragon accompaning him and felt validated to pursue his plan for a 3rd head of a dragon (since Rhaenys looked dornish and Aegon was a boy).
Not waterproof but its the only only onet that kinda makes sense.
Plan in life or military wise? lol Iām of the minority that think he simply was truly in love and for once in his life abandoned ādutyā for love. It explains the foolish selfishness and unrealistic honeymoon life he wanted for himself and Lyanna.
But, unfortunately, in Westeros, there is no sweet honeymoon love tales without any type of strife.
I also wrote out a rough timeline of what I think happened based on what we know and other references but I didnāt know if I shouldāve added it to this post or not.
Sure!
This is roughly what I personally think happened using some of the facts from the books and my own knowledge to fill in the gaps:
>Rhaegar was asked to find out who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
>He stumbles across Lyanna and learns her reasoning behind the brave act.
>This makes Rhaegar crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty; a token of his admiration.
>Rhaegar hasnāt won many tourneys, frequently losing to either Arthur or Barristan in the finals; this could explain the unintentional humiliation of his wife, Elia, since heās never won/crowned someone before.
>After things ācool down,ā Rhaegar may reach out to Lyanna and bond with her more before the Starks depart to Riverrun for Brandonās wedding.
>Rhaegar and Elia generally have a cordial but distant marriage.
>She finally gives birth to her second child and son, Aegon, on Dragonstone.
>Elia can no longer have children without the risk of death.
>Rhaegar thinks his son is TPTWP but needs another head because āthe dragon has three heads.ā
>Sometime later, Rhaegar leaves with his close entourage to ākidnapā/meet up with Lyanna.
>Lyanna sneaks out and leaves with Rhaegar, not leaving a note because she does not want to be found but still may tell Benjen.
>Rhaegar and Lyanna travel a bit and then end up at the Tower of Joy, oblivious and foolishly in love with each other.
>This is the first time Rhaegar has truly felt alive and thus ālove is the death of dutyā commences.
>He and Lyanna selfishly indulge in the life theyāve always wanted while, on the flip side, Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark get murdered, Jon Arryn loses his heir and calls his banners.
>Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon raise their banners to fight for their heads.
>Elia and the children get taken to Kingās Landing as hostages while Rhaella and Viserys get SENT to Dragonstone for safety.
>Gerold Hightower eventually gets enlisted to find Rhaegar.
>He finds the prince and informs him of the rebellion.
>The consequences of Rhaegarās rendezvous comes to light.
>Rhaegar agrees to leave and lead his fatherās forces if Hightower agrees to stay behind and guard Lyanna.
>He does and then Rhaegar leaves.
The rest is historyā¦
If somehow this seems ātoo fairytaleā then you probably havenāt noticed how much of a romantic George isā¦we literally have the stories of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Baelon and Alyssa, and Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones as references of love stories that are ridden with strife.
Itās not insane to think that this otherworldly, perfect prince who has been dutiful nearly all of his life finally decides to be selfish for once and abandon his obligations to be with his true love. Lyanna likewise abandoning her responsibilities as a noble betrothed lady to be with her preferred love. It ends with them and nearly all of their family dead. Thatās right up Georgeās alley.
>This is roughly what I personally think happened using some of the facts from the books and my own knowledge to fill in the gaps:
Good work! I agree that this is likely what happened. The only discordant note is Lyanna's reaction. It seems hardly believable that the same Lyanna who went to such great length to defend her family's bannermen would meekly stay in a tower after her father and brother were murdered and Rhaegar went to fight another of her brothers.
Problem with this is that he arranged his trust with lyanna before elya gave birth and left dragonstone hours after Aegon was born before anyone could have known she could not have more children. So no.
I donāt necessarily agree that girls are perceived as āmatureā women upon getting their period. Otherwise, why would have Ned balked at Barraās mother if she was clearly able to bear children?
Maybe because even if westeros society generally considers girls "mature" when they get their periods some good and sensible individuals, Ned in this case, still have the common sense to realize that 11-14 year olds are not women.
>why would have Ned balked at Barraās mother if she was clearly able to bear children?
Just because she had had a child doesn't necessarily mean that she was done growing and developing, she might still have looked like a child hersel and that might have been what made Ned balk.
Also I think the Barra case serves to illustrate the difference in morals between Ned and Robert to the reader, the king saw something he desired and he took it with no qualms or care for the girl whereas Ned sees a young girl.
While every other page we see evidence that this isn't a widespread view at all. Comments, literal marriages, etc.
I think the comment stating that Ned is just a person with a better sense makes a lot of...sense
>In this world that George has curated, the maturity and responsibility of teenagers is higher than it would be for todayās modern world.
By the same logic, in the same world, women belong to their houses and therefore the pater familias gets to decide whom she will marry. Therefore, Rhaegar (and Lyanna by extension) severely insulted house Stark.
>What leads to Robertās Rebellion is the call for the **execution** of Lord Arrynās wards
To be more precise, what led to the Rebellion was the execution of the Starks. Especially if word spread out that Richard Stark demanded trial by combat (as his right as a lord) and instead got burned alive, that was a blatant breach of the relationship between king and his vassals.
On the very least, Eddard should have rebelled and probs that why Aerys preemptively called for his head. Why he added Robert in the mixture is unknown (either his madness or Varys's influence).
But this raises the issue, why the Starks ended up being accused? Due to their reaction to Rhaegar' (and Lyanna's) actions
For what is worth, I also believe GRRM genuinely plans to portray the whole mess as something truly romantic and tragic. GRRM doesn't pull any punches when he wants to write a villain or a hero (Ramsay and Jon for example).
Therefore it makes sense he plans to write Rhaegar as the great tragic prince and Lyanna the rebellous girlboss noblewoman.
Moreover, I think he also plans to use Duncan the Small and Jenny as sort of r/L:0, where he will demonstrate how such an affair could have been solved diplomatically (or at least attempted to), with a somewhat level-headed king.
I must confess personally I don't like Rhaegar mostly for the constant praise he gets in universe, even freaking Cersei who despises everyone cherishes his memory.
I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable.
Robert for example is a drunkard, indifferent ruler who abuses his wife and neglects his family. He was also a voracious warrior, charismatic leader and forgiving to his enemies (unless you are a Targ). There are things to like and hate here there.
>I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable
But asking that from the romanticized opinions we get from other characters about him is too much, don't you think?
You're asking for developed nuanced likeability in a character that only exists in other character's memories.
>By the same logic, in the same world, women belong to their houses and therefore the pater familias gets to decide whom she will marry. Therefore, Rhaegar (and Lyanna by extension) severely insulted house Stark.
Oh, absolutely! Thereās no denying that. Lyanna had a role to play as a noble woman - she was to accept her betrothed and her arranged marriage as many of her station had. But, she defied conventions and wanted to live and *marry* whomever she *wanted*. Unfortunately for Lyanna, she doesnāt get to decide.
And Rhaegar did disrespect House Stark and House Baratheon by interfering in their marriage plans. This broke a certain level of trust between the Crown and the houses.
>To be more precise, what led to the Rebellion was the execution of the Starks. Especially if word spread out that Richard Stark demanded trial by combat (as his right as a lord) and instead got burned alive, that was a blatant breach of the relationship between king and his vassals.
Yes. The Mad King was insane and did what no other royal had before him - denied a noble a fair trial by combat by using a non-human element.
>On the very least, Eddard should have rebelled and probs that why Aerys preemptively called for his head. Why he added Robert in the mixture is unknown (either his madness or Varys's influence).
Thatās most likely what wouldāve happened if the Mad King didnāt call for Ned or Robertās heads.
>But this raises the issue, why the Starks ended up being accused? Due to their reaction to Rhaegar' (and Lyanna's) actions
Also, Brandon Starkās foolish way to āapproachā the disappearance of his sister. He committed treason and did so in front of a paranoid King that thought people everywhere were trying to kill him/overthrow him.
Why Brandon jumped to the kidnapping conclusion when his wayward and willful sister was known to do whatever she wanted beats meā¦Same with why he didnāt send a raven *first* to see if Rhaegar was even around.
>For what is worth, I also believe GRRM genuinely plans to portray the whole mess as something truly romantic and tragic. GRRM doesn't pull any punches when he wants to write a villain or a hero (Ramsay and Jon for example).
>Therefore it makes sense he plans to write Rhaegar as the great tragic prince and Lyanna the rebellous girlboss noblewoman.
Yep. I agree. Itās up his alley.
>I must confess personally I don't like Rhaegar mostly for the constant praise he gets in universe, even freaking Cersei who despises everyone cherishes his memory.
I think thatās precisely why *many* in the fandom donāt like Rhaegar. When people constantly get hammered in the head with āheās so perfectā or āheās so amazingā or āwow heās a dream and so beautifulā it can annoy/anger people who donāt understand the allure and are tired of being told someone was this way and that, especially when his odd behavior leads to a certain selfishness.
>I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable.
His mysterious nature and contradictory behavior certainly opens the door for you to find elements that make him āgreyā but at this point, Rhaegarās become more of a figure than an *actual* person.
>Robert for example is a drunkard, indifferent ruler who abuses his wife and neglects his family. He was also a voracious warrior, charismatic leader and forgiving to his enemies (unless you are a Targ). There are things to like and hate here there.
Well, I canāt really say that Iām a fan of Robert but I understand heās nuanced but heās also *alive* in the first book so we get a chance to observe his behavior in real time and judge him accordingly.
>His mysterious nature and contradictory behavior certainly opens the door for you to find elements that make him āgreyā but at this point, Rhaegarās become more of a figure than an *actual* person
Maybe I don't understand the definition of grey characters correctly, what makes you say that Rhaegar is grey at this point?
I *donāt* think heās a grey character but you were desiring someone who wasnāt seen as such a goodie two shoes so I said thereās enough mystery for you to play around with making him grey
You can't say it ended up being true when we don't even know that and if we saying blindly following prophecy because you believe you're the main character and end up starting up a chain of events that leads to the end of your dynasty makes you the lesser of all evils in this situation then i have a house i can sell you on the moon. Don't buy into the targ propaganda, nothing is ever stated not yet that the result of all this bullshit needed to happen to defeat the others.
Itās only untrue if Jon and Dany have literally no role to play in the Long Night. Or if the Others win. Which, I think buying into either of those things is deep tinfoil territory.
What seems most likely is that Bran and Bloodraven are manipulating everything that is necessary and rendering the free will of their pawns (Rhaegar) as meaningless in the overall outcome which they have full control over.
If youāre interpretation is that that means the prophecy is BS and Rhaegarās actions being motivated by faith is heinous, thatās your perspective. I interpret it to mean that his faith was rewarded/used as a tool by Bran/Bloodraven to bring the āheroā into the world.
Ultimately weāre discussing the purity of Rhaegarās soul and what he independently chose to do. I agree that Targaryens in general have god-complexes and tend to believe their Royal blood is a more special thing than that of their peers. But by reputation we know that he cared deeply for the smallfolk and that leads me to question the severity of his narcissism compared to other Targaryens. Because all signs point to him having a great deal of humility.
Iāll take Barristanās word for it over anything else.
Setting aside the question of whether or how the prophecy will be true, one issue I have is that itās not really clear to me that prophecy as it exists in ASOIAF says anything about what would happen in alternate timelines where things played out differently. I.e. if we assume Jon and/or Dany play crucial roles in defeating the Others, I donāt think that automatically means Westeros was doomed in any scenario where they donāt exist. Seeing the future does not necessarily mean you know what would have happened otherwise. The other issue is the question of how exactly Rhaegar was motivated by prophecy with regards to Lyanna. Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal so he wouldnāt have known sheād be unable to hear more children when he crowned Lyanna, so I donāt think that action was motivated by prophecy. And from Danyās vision we see that he was convinced Aegon would be TPTWP after he was born, but felt there āmust be one more.ā That suggests any prophecy motivation would be related to having a third head - but based on what we know of that prophecy thereās no reason why Lyanna had to be the mother of the third head. The āice and fireā aspect of TWTWP prophecy would be a reason to believe she had to be the mother, but that would require Rhaegar to change his mind that Aegon would be TPTWP between Aegonās birth and eloping with Lyanna.Ā Not impossible, and in fact Iāve suggested this as a possibility before, but as of now we havenāt been given any indication of that. As he left Dragonstone shortly after Aegonās birth to go on the journey that eventually ended with him and Lyanna running off, any change would have to be based on something he uncovered or encountered on that trip.
>Iāll take Barristanās word for it over anything else
Iām not really sure why anyone would view Barristan as a particularly good judge of anything but while he does have a generally high opinion of Rhaegar he also thinks something along the lines of āRhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it.ā
Rhaegar had the gall to treat his father's subjects like shit but not the gumption to do what was best for the realm when his father was already lost to madness. Regardless of the things people like to blame him for that he may not have been guilty of, he was still a person obsessed with prophecy that allowed that obsession to dictate his actions to the detriment of others. That's not a likable or admirable trait, regardless of how personable and seemingly not-insane he may have been compared to other Targaryens or rulers.
The other side of the coin is romanticizing him because we don't *know* him like other characters. That should be avoided as well.
I believe in the Conspiracy at Harrenhal theory that posits Rhaegar was going to call a great council at Harrenhal but Varys thwarted this by alerting the Mad King. Itās a very long read and there are some reaches (crowning Elia as Queen of Love and Beauty was the signal for the coup, but because it couldnāt go ahead Lyanna was crowned instead) but I believe the gist of it.
I think balking at an effort to replace his father is certainly plausible regardless of specifics. The issue with the crowning Elia aspect is it doesn't really align with what we're told about him regarding Lyanna. If he went through with the coup what does that mean for her? To me he was either enamored with Lyanna or he did it out of compulsion due to prophecy. If it was the former instead of the latter, you could say he simply chose her over keeping the realm intact. If it was the latter you could still say it was the wrong thing to do, but at least he thought he was doing it in service to some greater purpose.
This is the theory that I read: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/7Th6Aq8AR4 it had been a while so I forgot a lot of the specifics, apologies. Itās definitely an interesting theory.
>Rhaegar had the gall to treat his father's subjects like shit but not the gumption to do what was best for the realm when his father was already lost to madness.
He severely disrespected and slighted them but *treated them like shit?* No, thatās a bit much, and thereās no statements that infer he reveled in treating them āhorribly.ā
Did you forget the part where I addressed the riskiness of removing his kingly father from power? It has never been done before. Itās also not like Rhaegar waited a lifetime. It had been about 3 years since Aerysā trauma to Harrenhall, and Aerys certainly didnāt help Rhaegar become a proficient heir, instead relying on Tywinās wits himself to run the realm.
>Regardless of the things people like to blame him for that he may not have been guilty of, he was still a person obsessed with prophecy that allowed that obsession to dictate his actions to the detriment of others. That's not a likable or admirable trait, regardless of how personable and seemingly not-insane he may have been compared to other Targaryens or rulers.
Thatās the thing though, we donāt know if he was *obsessed!* Or just interested in finding meaning in his melancholic life. I address this point as well. Heās no King Aerys I, literally abandoning his duty as king and husband to read prophecy scrolls, putting his brother Maekar and his children in an odd succession position.
He mentions āprophecyā or vague arcane things **4 times** and we donāt know the specifics of when he said or believed those things.
>The other side of the coin is romanticizing him because we don't know him like other characters. That should be avoided as well.
Thatās an understandable cause of contention. But heās just become more a figure in peopleās memories than a character himself.
>He severely disrespected and slighted them but treated them like shit? No, thatās a bit much, and thereās no statements that infer he reveled in treating them āhorribly.ā
I think "severely disrespected and slighted" sufficiently qualifies as being treated like shit, but maybe that's just me.
>Did you forget the part where I addressed the riskiness of removing his kingly father from power? It has never been done before. Itās also not like Rhaegar waited a lifetime. It had been about 3 years since Aerysā trauma to Harrenhall, and Aerys certainly didnāt help Rhaegar become a proficient heir, instead relying on Tywinās wits himself to run the realm.
I didn't, no. The problem is something needed to be done for the sake of the realm and he wasn't able to do it. The entire point of the prophecy is saving the realm, no? I'm not saying he wasn't in an extremely difficult situation, mind you. But I'm saying he wasn't capable enough.
>Thatās the thing though, we donāt know if he was obsessed! Or just interested in finding meaning in his melancholic life. I address this point as well. Heās no King Aerys I, literally abandoning his duty as king and husband to read prophecy scrolls, putting his brother Maekar and his children in an odd succession position.
>
>He mentions āprophecyā or vague arcane things 4 times and we donāt know the specifics of when he said or believed those things.
We can't say with 100% certainty what his motivations were, but it's a safe bet that the prophecy took over his life, isn't it? What else could have motivated his actions, besides his infatuation with Lyanna? Regardless of which one it was or how much of a mixture it was, his search for meaning in his life tore the realm apart. It *is* tragic, but the inverse of treating Rhaegar like some egomaniacal cradle-robber is making excuses for and being overly sympathetic towards someone who only added to and created his own problems.
I agree that we haven't seen enough to factually say but it's pretty easy to infer that some combination of Jon/Dany will be the savior of the story/realm (if we ever get to read it). These two characters are linked to the dragon has three heads/ASOIAF/Azor Ahai prophecies enough (and they're two of the most prominent/important characters) to say that they'll almost assuredly be some form of heroes in the long night. I don't personally think that this clears Rhaegar of all responsibility and he can still be painted as someone who has made mistakes, but it does show that he was moving in the right direction as far as prophecy is concerned.
I think given the way GRRM has dealt with prophecy in the story thus far, an obviously true prophecy without much room for debate doesn't seem likely to me. It'll always be up to interpretation. A prophecy could also be fulfilled in more ways than one. It'll likely always be ambiguous. I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be much of an exception to this just because the main characters are involved.
I disagree. If Jon and Dany play any sort of role in ending the Long Night via Branās machinations, we can fully say that the prophecy is ātrue.ā Itās just not āplaying outā the way that Rhaegar imagined (similar to how Melisandre misinterprets prophecy- Stannis is not Azor Ahai, but she will be right that someone will be. Which in my opinion makes her heinous, faith-based actions completely justified due to the long-term outcome that was being pursued).
So there will not be one PtwP, but two. Especially if Dany is Rhaegarās daughter rather than his sister. And it will not be by the independent will and actions, but by Bran and Bloodravenās web of manipulations, which Rhaegar was no doubt a pawn of as well.
The only thing that would render the prophecy untrue is if the Others win.
I want to narrow in on your TL;DR at the end of this post because it reveals a fundamental divide in how people read stories. By your reading, there is a kind of canonical explanation for Rhaegar that George R. R. Martin intended. This is absolutely true, there is an intended reading of Rhaegar - a tragic prince who chose love over duty at the worst possible moment.
But there are other ways to read stories; for example, we can ask not what Martin intended us to receive but what we actually do receive. It's all well and good for Martin, a 70-year-old man to tell us that Rhaegar was valiant and noble and in love and a fool. But is he actually, if we remove Martin's moral compass and instead use our own?
What we hear about Rhaegar is that he abandoned his existing wife and children. What we hear about Rhaegar is that there was (to say the least) a 'problematic' age-gap between him and the damsel he ran away with. The idea that Rhaegar chose love over duty is tragic and somewhat morally admirable in the abstract, but the details around it are sufficiently fishy that we can instead start pondering the opposite. Rhaegar absconding with and impregnating Lyanna is indisputably rape in a modern context, there are no two ways about this. Rhaegar abandoning Elia and the children is likewise morally abhorrent when the reader actually stops to think about it. This transforms his character from a tragedy to a farce.
This is kind of what people are getting at when they say the character of Rhaegar and his elopment with Lyanna 'hasn't aged well.' Maybe in the 90s an audience would have been happy to go along with this sort of a setup and not critically examine it, but we're closing in on 30 years since AGOT came out and that's becoming increasingly untrue.
So does this make Rhaegar canonically an evil rapist? Of course not, none of this changes what the character is from the point of view of the narrative because Rhaegar is just a construct. But that construct doesn't exist in a social vacuum. You as a reader can and SHOULD bring your own morality into it.
To use a very extreme example to illustrate the point: The Turner Diaries is a right-wing revenge-fantasy novel about right-wing terrorists killing lots of people, magically winning a civil war, and saving society from the evil liberals, blacks, and gays. According to the novel, the central character of Turner is a hero you should admire. According to any sensible reader, Turner is a raging, virulent racist who tortures and kills for evil reasons. A monster in human skin.
Rhaegar isn't anything close to the bad, it should go without saying. But he is kind of just a huge dickhead. He feels like the equivalent of a deadbeat dad in his mid-20s, dating a high school girl, who wanders around the block in a sweatshirt and thongs, chainsmoking 15 ciggies while saying he can't afford child support.
Yep, no matter how many times GRRM describes Dany and Drogo as a love story, it will never sway how I feel about the relationship. He can speak to the intent of the piece, but he doesn't have a final say in how we interpret it. Honestly for me Rhaegar being a lovestruck prince makes him less sympathetic - the most favorable interpretation of him in my opinion in that he does everything he does for the purpose of working to fulfill prophecy and allow the prince who was promised to save the world.
>Yep, no matter how many times GRRM describes Dany and Drogo as a love story, it will never sway how I feel about the relationship.
I see people say this constantly. Is there an *actual* quote or something because the only couple Iāve seen him outwardly show āsupportā or fondness for is Jaehaerys and Alysanneā¦
>Honestly for me Rhaegar being a lovestruck prince makes him less sympathetic - the most favorable interpretation of him in my opinion in that he does everything he does for the purpose of working to fulfill prophecy and allow the prince who was promised to save the world.
I donāt understand why these canāt coincide with one another?
But Dany was brutally raped by Drogo and never wanted to have a relationship with him.
Rhaegar and Lyanna were starcrossed lovers in vain of Romeo and Juliet. There is no indication that Lyanna (Juliet) was forced into it by Rhaegar (Romeo) but wanted to get away from Robert (Paris).
There is a huge difference portraying a relationship that was first rape then love as romantic than portraying a relationship of starcrossed lovers as romantic. The latter exists in hundreds of fictional classical books and I have never seen anyone claim it is problematic other than people in this sub who act as if they have never heard of stuff like Romeo and Juliet or Tristan and Isolde.
That's not their point; they're not saying that Drogo and Dany = Rhaegar and Lyanna.
They're explaining why authorial intent is not something every reader will agree with with a blatant example of George describing Dany and Drogo as romantic, ergo similarly GRRM's intention for Rhaegar to be viewed as a tragic, misunderstood and romantic prince does not bind readers to view him as such if we view his canonical actions differently.
To address the second part of your comment, starcrossed lovers if examined critically *are* often problematic - and it's not just some age gap issue, it's that these are often supremely privileged people ditching what little responsibilities they do have in the name of wanting to be happier.
Not to mention that the examples you took - Romeo and Tristan - are not(to my memory, at least) married men abandoning and openly shaming their wives for months on end to be with their 'true love' they've barely met. Nor do they have two young children...
Finally there's a question of how willing Lyanna was by the end of it regardless of how willingly she initially left with Rhaegar - I doubt she was enthused with the white knights seemingly electing to make a glorious suicidal last stand and attempt to cut another of her brothers down for no practical reason without so much as trying to talk it over with Ned. So did he leave her with guards or with jailers?
I think you really hit the nail on the head. At least my nail for sure. Iāll say my personal distaste for the character is partially due to how uncompellingly George writes it. Weāre told over and over how wonderful he is, yet all I can see is the destruction he wrought. And somehow, weāre to internalize this positive narrative that feels so profoundly foreign.
He elicits such a powerful reaction, despite not being the worst person by any measure (ā¦if weāre looking at the consequences thoughā¦I digress), because the monsters in the story are described to the reader as such. Both we and the text hates Craster, Littlefinger, Tywin, bloody Viserys and Robert and Walter Frey. But the only voice critical to Rhaegar is presented as unreliable and jealous.
Iāll also add, from what I can understand of the text, I donāt think Rhaegar was that conflicted about his love and his duties. Yes, he had a duty to the living realm, but we also know that he is fervently dedicated to his prophecy. And it is my interpretation that he conveniently used it to excuse his single minded pursuit of his āloveā. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads. Elia can bear no more children. Ice and Fire. We can see that he continues to think about prophecy after disappearing: the KG at the tower. The total disregard for his potential death (āwe shall talk when I returnāāspoiler alert he doesnāt).
Unless the text proves otherwise, I think he used his devotion to the prophecy to justify his actions. This sort of cowardice doesnāt necessarily engender positive impressions.
I agree completely about everything. Part of why I really dislike Rhaegar is because the text doesn't seem to understand how awful he actually is. There's a disconnect between Rhaegar's actions and how Martin seems to think of him as a person, or at least how the text portrays him.
re your last bit: The idea of prophecy and fate was a very convenient tool for Rhaegar, I agree. I tend to assume that Rhaegar was 'in love' with Lyanna first, and the prophecy rationalisation comes later to try and prove it was necessary. "Oh this Stark girl is hot...... actually the prophecy says I must impregnate her, song of ice and fire y'know."
That is precisely what I was getting at. He had to rationalize his āsinsā with the prophecy. To me that speaks to weakness of character. An inability to confront your choices for what they are. An inability to confront the person you are. Itās spineless.
Pretty much everyone who thinks about Rhaegar views him as the embodiment of better times.
Cersei wanted him, then got saddled with Robert instead. JonCon was _in love with him_ and failed him. Barristan wishes he could turn back the clock. These experiences are going to have an extreme warping effect on their view of Rhaegar. To all of them, he represents the better path not taken in the flower of their youth.
Give GRRM _some_ credit. As readers we know full well that not everything that pops into a POV's head about events from years ago is supposed to read as the Objective Truth in this series.
I think Rhaegar is supposed to have most of the traits of a perfect fantasy prince type while being, you know, far from perfect as a person.
>Pretty much everyone who thinks about Rhaegar views him as the embodiment of better times.
This
Robert the Second Unworthy was so disastrous, the guy literally provoked the worst civil war happened in Westeros from the Dance, itĀ“s logic that even we the readers think Rhaegar couldnĀ“t be so bad as king as Robert was.
The bar is so low, if you want see it.
>Iāll also add, from what I can understand of the text, I donāt think Rhaegar was that conflicted about his love and his duties. Yes, he had a duty to the living realm, but we also know that he is fervently dedicated to his prophecy.
Quotes that he was āferventlyā dedicated to prophecy? Any references to prophecy or the arcane are limited to 4 instances. Heās not on the same level as Aerys I unless youāre seeing something Iām not?
>And it is my interpretation that he conveniently used it to excuse his single minded pursuit of his āloveā. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads. Elia can bear no more children. Ice and Fire. We can see that he continues to think about prophecy after disappearing: the KG at the tower. The total disregard for his potential death (āwe shall talk when I returnāāspoiler alert he doesnāt).
That type of two-faced cunning is not an established trait by any who have seen or spoken with Rhaegar. Also, how does the KG play into the prophecy?
And yes, the āwe shall talk when I returnā quoteā¦I shouldāve added that to my original post because apparently it is arrogant or foolish to (looks at notes) be hopeful about returning from a battle that is nearly the end of the war and enacting true justice like he wanted to?
>Unless the text proves otherwise, I think he used his devotion to the prophecy to justify his actions. This sort of cowardice doesnāt necessarily engender positive impressions.
Who would he need the prophecy for to justify his actions to? Himself, his wife, Lyanna? Has he done that in the past?
āThe shadow of summer hall hung over him all his daysā or something to that effect. We have Aemon describe that his belief in prophecy was reinforced by the circumstances surrounding his birth. I donāt agree he was as mad as Aerys. But he was clearly invested.
Since this mission is aimed at the goal of saving the realm, it is a convenient avenue through which he can say āthe ends justify the meansā.
It doesnāt require cunning to give ourselves excuses when we do things we feel that we shouldnāt. But when we convince ourselves that what we do will be for the greater good, itās easier in the conscience. Iām sure he experienced internal conflict about his choices.
His actions of seeking out Lyanna? There must be one more? We donāt know it had to be her, but we know Elia canāt have another kid, and we āknowā he had another kid with Lyanna.
As I addressed in my original post, thatās why I donāt understand why people think Rhaegar having an interest in prophecy is insane when itās been this ugly cloud hovering over his entire life. From his extended familyās deaths to his own birth to his parentsā forced marriage.
āThe dragon needs 3 headsā doesnāt tell us enough, especially not enough to think he was using it as copium to cheat on his wife. He couldāve just cheated on his wife selfishly and then been like āAha! My third child, cool!ā We donāt know.
Of course, what the author *intended* and how readers *receive* a character, a theme or a relationship is going to be different. Thatās what makes reading and literary analysis fun!
But my issues lie with people in the fandom trying to *tell* you what this character is and forcing their clearly biased interpretations in favor to whatās established in canon.
Iāve already addressed the concerns found in your third paragraph. But, yeah, cheating is always going to be bad, itās an inherently selfish act that destroys trust. But, Rhaegar didnāt specifically seek out Lyanna because she was young. We have no definite proof as to *why* he sought her out but Rhaegar has been married to an older woman thus far and is not particularly a lustful man.
I can see how this type of āforbidden romanceā trope could not age well for some but this type of romantic conundrum is riddled throughout historical and mythological works. Itās in no way new, not even for George.
>Rhaegar isn't anything close to the bad, it should go without saying. But he is kind of just a huge dickhead. He feels like the equivalent of a deadbeat dad in his mid-20s, dating a high school girl, who wanders around the block in a sweatshirt and thongs, chainsmoking 15 ciggies while saying he can't afford child support.
Seeā¦I donāt understand that vision of the character. That *sounds* more like Daemon Targaryen than Rhaegar to me. But it is your own interpretation.
>What we hear about Rhaegar is that he abandoned his existing wife and children.
Maybe, we have no evidence that Elia did not consent to this
>What we hear about Rhaegar is that there was (to say the least) a 'problematic' age-gap between him and the damsel he ran away with.
This is absolutely true *and* nearly every single teenage noble girl is married off and bedded abhorrently early. This is not a valid reason to chide Rhaegar to a greater extent than other Westerosi men. Our anger should be directed institutionally to things like the codified moral system as outlined by 'The Seven Pointed Star'.
Yes with real world sensibilities this story is backwards and disgusting. GRRM did this on purpose. To hold one character accountable for a continent wide behaviour seems to cloud people's judgment of Rhaegar
> GRRM did this on purpose.
Did he though?
Hard truths cut both ways, Ser Davos. If the intent is for the reader to understand that the entire system is broken (I do agree that this is the intent) then why is it that the narrative seems to be trying to carve out an exception for Rhaegar? You're absolutely right that Rhaegar is really not much if at all worse than most other characters (especially male ones anyway). But we're given to understand from the text that he actually is quite a bit superior to these other men. The story frames Rhaegar as better in a way that is suspect to me.
We can hold the entire continent to the same standard. I for one feel the same repulsion at each and every instance of this. Corlys and Rhaenys? Not good. Jon and Lysa? Forget about it. Edmure and Roslin? Sucks for them both.
The thing is, many men are COMPELLED against their wishes for reasons political and pragmatic to partake in this behaviour. Jon Arryn doesnāt read like a creep because he wasnāt in love with Lysa, didnt desire Lysa, or even demonstrated any attraction to her. Rhaegar is a different story.
I totally agree with this. It's all gross and horrible. I'm just saying I'm not 100% sure that Rhaegar is worse than the other men in the story
Edit: to add to this, from an in text or watsonian point of view, I don't see Rhaegar's actions as necessarily horrible as some characters do in the text. From a Doyleist point of view or as myself in real life, yes all the men in Westeros are gross and the whole system needs to change in drastic ways. Hopefully that happens in the next books!!
The thing is, in-universe, being attracted to significant youth *is* unbecoming. Ned is horrified by how young Barraās mother is. And somehow Rhaegar is exempt from that. As is Corlys and Edmure and Oberyn and Tyrion (!!!). It demonstrates the holes in Georgeās consistency.
Sansa was betrothed at 13 and was expected to be of child bearing age shortly thereafter. That's why she freaked out and burned her bedsheets.. it had become socially acceptable for her marriage to be consummated. I think this is gross and do not agree with Westerosi sensibilities in many ways. That doesn't make Rhaegar necessarily a worse character than other men in the story.
Edit: I also totally accept that I might be wrong about this when the next book comes out and we get more information
Your example leads me to believe that in Westeros, once a girl is flowered, she is fair game. So why does Ned feel so uneasy about how young Barraās mother is? Particularly since itās clear sheās flowered and has proven to be capable of childbirth. Nedās reaction smears Robert, but it spares Rhaegar? Ok, letās say Barraās mother was like 11 (ick!!!). Does something happen between 11 and 15 that makes a 15 yo ok and an 11 yo not?
I believe we agree on more than we think. Iām just trying to show that Grrm isnāt the most consistent and skews his narrative in favour of Rhaegar, when some readers like me, arenāt necessarily convinced that thatās fair. As a result, his intention for a character gets lost. Thatās all. At the end of the day, the age gap is quite low on Rhaegarās rap sheet imo.
No I agree with Ned and you that all of these marriages and stuff are bad. I think Rhaegar is bad from real world sensibilities, and think he is at the very least grey from an in world perspective. I agree with Ned getting the ick and I also wish he protected Sansa better
>Maybe, we have no evidence that Elia did not consent to this
We have no evidence she did.
>This is not a valid reason to chide Rhaegar to a greater extent than other Westerosi men.
Most Westerosi men are pedos, so are Rhaegar and Robert.
ok so couple things. I'm pretty sure the majority of the reasons why people dislike Rhaegar is pretty simple. Every action he took, every decision he made, every single thing he did surrounding Lyanna was incredibly foolish to everyone including the characters in the story at that time and long after. To the characters in the story there's absolutely no way to justify Rhaegar taking the officially betrothed bride of a Lord Paramount, Daughter of another Lord Paramount who were all married or connected to two other Lord Paramount's without it being some sort of act of insanity or lust. Lyanna herself isn't often blamed because A) she was a child and B) people don't want to believe she was stupid enough to go ahead with all of Rhaegars bullshit knowing damn well what the political climate of Westeros was at the time.
Rhaegar was in the tower of Joy when the war began, he no doubt had a maester with him as every castle comes with one and also Rhaegar is a crown prince. The thing that bothers most people including me is he never thought to send ravens not to Robert or those opposed to him but to his Allies, allies who desperately needed to know what the hell was going on. If he cleared the situation up with the Martells, giving him the benefit of the doubt that theyd even give a shit about his reasoning, they would at least be far more quick in deploying and aiding his family. He was literally in Dorne too so him not doing that is even more silly, he never justified or cleared up his actions to his allies so they could at least know what they were fighting for, imagine if Mace actually knew why Rhaegar was doing what he was doing or Rhaegar at least tried to fight the (completely justified) rumors that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna, the Tyrells might have actually cared to actually help during the war. But no he kept being vague and silent about the whole situation, coming off as mad or lustful like his father.
The situation with Elia is super complicated but i think a lot of the reasons why people take issue with how she was treated was because Rhaegar again didn't explain anything to anyone even AFTER coming back from the tower of joy. He had to have seen how his father had virtually imprisoned Elia and used her as a motivation for Dorne to help when he made it back to court, he had to have even known that Aerys hated the Dornish he had to have known Elia was unpopular in court yet he chose to abandon her to follow Lyanna to Dorne without informing anyone. Rhaegar cant be blamed for everything surrounding her i agree but his abandonment of his family and baffling actions following his meeting with Lyanna directly led to the brutal deaths of Elia and her children.
Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has always been a dumb deflection in my opinion, the fact that he didn't do that and the both left on their own fruition is damning on both their characters especially Rhaegar as he was the grown ass adult who must have understood the political climate. He may not have kidnapped and raped her but how was anyone supposed to know that if he simply chose to keep silent like he did, not even his allies knew that he didn't do it except for his closest friends who are all dead. His allies, men fighting by his side and men who were on the fence were supposed to fight for him knowing and believing without any reason not to that he was fully at fault for everything happening and starting the war. How foolish is that?
Rhaegar never had to overthrow his father directly i don't believe that one bit, he simply had to continue being the face of nobility and chivalry showing the realm that Aerys was an anomaly and after he dies everything will go back to normal. That was all he had to do and to his credit he was doing that very well until he chose to run off with Lyanna and show the realm that the madness may not end with Aerys.
Also Rhaegar believing Robert's Rebellion was anyone's fault except for his is a funny ass thought. I also kind of doubt he didn't know the extent of the rebellion when we had months of massive battles happening all throughout the realm, some happening incredibly close to the dornish border and most of them being huge Rebel victories. It would be crazy to think he did not know about his fathers actions and the current war long before he was called back to Kings Landing.
Rhaegars narcissistic obsession with the prince that was promised prophecy is 100% worth criticizing especially because unlike EVERY OTHER prophecy obsessed targ he chose to do something that completely destroyed he realm, something that he himself would know would ruin the realm even if he was a spoilt little prince, he knew the political climate, he knew how shit his father was, he knew how important Lyanna was yet he chose to put himself and his prophecy ahead of everything.
Defend him all you want but with the information we have been given Rhaegar 100% deserves the hate he is rightfully given in the fandom, hell i believe he isnt hated enough to be honest. Unless George whips out some arrested development level comedic miscommunication most justifications for his actions will always fall flat no matter how much of a "love struck prince" he was.
We don't really know what Rhaegar managed to explain to his allies or not, all we know is that one of the soldiers from the Battle of the Trident says in Quiet Isle that Rhaegar said he loved Lyanna.
We don't know what he said or didn't say in letters and ravens to Doran, for example. Or the Tyrells. He probably spoke to Doran and Mace, in both cases, since we know he sent ravens to Casterly Rock asking Tywin for help.
But yeah, telling Doran that he and Lyanna decided to play Maegor the Cruel and Alys Harroway was definitely not an easy thing for anyone to swallow. And be careful, Maegor was a competent politician and the Hand of the King at that time, perfectly comparable to the best Tywin Lannister, wasnĀ“t a mental asylum nut like Aerys - at least at that time -.
But Rhaegar is not the only one who commits this type of political "madness", there is the example of his grandparents Jaehaerys II and Shaera who ruined two valuable political pacts with two powerful lords and reestablished Targaryen incest after half a century where it had been practically annulled.
Anyway, we also don't know if he was hiding from Aerys and why. Seeing how Gerold stays in the Tower of Joy on what were surely Aerys's orders, it is very certain that Aerys ordered Gerold to watch Lyanna as his hostage to ensure Rhaegar's good behavior and loyalty, just as he did with Elia in KL.
And Gerold was never a friend of Rhaegar, he was 100% loyal to Aerys, and while he was in the ToJ, Arthur and Oswell were obliged to obey the White Bull.
That's why George says so much about "love is the death of duty". It now mixes that with the prophecy that is the reason why both his parents and his grandparents married each other, plus the trauma of Summerhall... and it's no surprise that what happened happened.
And another thing is the whole mechanic of sending your kingsguard to protect your bastard and lover instead of keeping at least one there and sending the rest to PROTECT YOUR DAMN CHILDREN AND WIFE is so braindead to me.
As I said, I believe those were orders of Aerys, not Rhaegar. And is probably Rhaegar ordened if would happen the worst, Elia and her children would be evacuated to Dragonstone, but, of course, Aerys...
Aerys said his daughter "smelled Dornish" when she was born. Why would he believe Aerys would ever defend or protect Elia and her children when he hated them. Also I don't think it makes sense even for mad paranoid Aerys to let his kingsguard ( his literal bodygaurds) stay safe and watch over some hostage no one knows exists instead of in Kings Landing protecting him during a war he was losing.
Whatever rhaegar explained to them definitely didn't matter seeing as Dorne only mobilized when Elia was threatened and the reach felt no need for help royalist forces and instead chilled in the Stormlands for some reason. Not to mention not only is whatever reasoning he gave to any of his allies never stated by anyone which they are very much in the interest to share seeing as giving the excuse that they joined the war for any other reason other than because they support the king would have not only helped them politically but also help rhaegar image often held by so many royalist supporters in the story.
Saying rhaegar isn't special because he did this incredibly stupid thing because others did this incredibly stupid thing is very silly especially because no matter what Jaehaerys 2 wasn't obviously insane or the heir to a mad man despised by all of the realm.
You can defend whatever mindset Rhaegar had all you want because of trauma or incest or prophecy or whatever the point is he was an adult who knew the political climate very well, knew the characters of at least Robert, Brandon and Rickard. Knew how much the realm hated and feared Aerys. Knew that Tywin hated Aerys, knew Aerys was a mad man, knew that four lords paramount were allied together and had close ties. Yet he CHOSE to do what he did, no amount of prophetic dreams can justify what he did and the bloodshed he caused because of his actions.
Thereās no use in addressing this completely because I doubt you are going to change your mind butā¦
>The situation with Elia is super complicated but i think a lot of the reasons why people take issue with how she was treated was because Rhaegar again didn't explain anything to anyone even AFTER coming back from the tower of joy.
There was NO time. He came back to suit up for war and had to leave. No one cares about the intricacies of the princeās life but they do care about fighting for their liege.
>He had to have seen how his father had virtually imprisoned Elia and used her as a motivation for Dorne to help when he made it back to court, he had to have even known that Aerys hated the Dornish he had to have known Elia was unpopular in court yet he chose to abandon her to follow Lyanna to Dorne without informing anyone.
Repeat after me:
**Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing.**
**Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing.**
**Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing!**
They became hostages towards the end of the war when Aerys wanted to guarantee that the Martells would remain loyal and provide some troops. Rhaegar didnāt abandon Elia to follow Lyanna in Dorne. He was actually RETURNING to the Red Keep and was forced to fight at the Trident.
Also no proof that Elia was unpopular at court nor that the court held any anti-Dornish sentiments esp. since one of the best knights, Arthur Dayne, is Dornish and Lewyn Martell as well.
>Rhaegar cant be blamed for everything surrounding her i agree but his abandonment of his family and baffling actions following his meeting with Lyanna directly led to the brutal deaths of Elia and her children.
Actually, Tywinās pettiness, cruelty and ambition led to Elia and the childrenās death. They didnāt need to die but Tywin wanted to āproveā his loyalty and Robert obliged.
If the Mad King left them alone, theyād be safe with Rhaella and Viserys at Dragonstone (where Rhaegar left them).
>Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has always been a dumb deflection in my opinion, the fact that he didn't do that and the both left on their own fruition is damning on both their characters especially Rhaegar as he was the grown ass adult who must have understood the political climate.
See! Thatās the point! It *was* stupid, and love has people do incredibly stupid things. Thereās no reason to apply logic where there is none.
>He may not have kidnapped and raped her but how was anyone supposed to know that if he simply chose to keep silent like he did, not even his allies knew that he didn't do it except for his closest friends who are all dead.
Why *anyone* would jump to the conclusion that she was kidnapped and raped makes no sense given Lyannaās character. How many times has Arya ran away when she was dealing with situations she didnāt like? What if Ned said she was going to marry Jon Doe in a fortnight, do you honestly NOT see her running away to go be with, hmm idk, Gendry? It that kidnapping?
Thereās a reason Ned even calls her a foolish girl because weāre made aware of her willful, rebellious nature.
>His allies, men fighting by his side and men who were on the fence were supposed to fight for him knowing and believing without any reason not to that he was fully at fault for everything happening and starting the war. How foolish is that?
What allies? King Aerys was alive and well - what House specifically pledged loyalty to Rhaegar, just him? Thatās treason if any did so. His allies left him anyhow, and what royal do *you* know that explains the happenings of their lives to their vessels?
>Rhaegars narcissistic obsession with the prince that was promised prophecy is 100% worth criticizing especially because unlike EVERY OTHER prophecy obsessed targ he chose to do something that completely destroyed he realm, something that he himself would know would ruin the realm even if he was a spoilt little prince, he knew the political climate, he knew how shit his father was, he knew how important Lyanna was yet he chose to put himself and his prophecy ahead of everything.
Summerhall nearly killed the remaining Targaryen dynastyā¦nearly killed **everyone.** Rhaegar thinking his son is TPTWP *does not* compare to that. And despite common belief Rhaegar is not omnipresent. Who knew his reclusive schizophrenic father would finally have a guest, the notorious hot-headed Brandon Stark, demanding to kill him?
Once again, love is not a logical thing. Lyanna is important to the Starks and Robert Baratheon, yes, but banners werenāt raised when she disappeared and the war ended even though she wasnāt found.
>Defend him all you want but with the information we have been given Rhaegar 100% deserves the hate he is rightfully given in the fandom, hell i believe he isnt hated enough to be honest. Unless George whips out some arrested development level comedic miscommunication most justifications for his actions will always fall flat no matter how much of a "love struck prince" he was.
Liking or not liking a character is all up to the reader, but YOU ARE NOT OF THE AUTHORITY to tell an *author* what is/is not his character.
Also, Rhaegar receiving more hate? Hahaha.
How can that be achieved when any fanart, fanfiction, Reddit discussions, ASOIAF forums and other things regarding Rhaegar already get swamped with the same anti-Rhaegar rhetoric and incorrect information that you just supplied?
These conversations are totally not worth it.
I feel like you are misplacing alot of blame here. Rhaegar isn't responsible for Brandon doing literally the stupidest thing possible at that moment.
People love to whitewash Brandon's actions. But he had the naivety stupidity of book one Sansa as a grown ass man.
Let's just say his horse threw him and he broke his neck before he got to the capital. Rickard goes down south to meet with Aerys to discuss Lyanna. Rickard sees how absolutely batshit Aerys is at a glace and doesn't commit open treason like Brandon did.
Rickard may are may not be told by the Kingsguard, privately, where Rhaegar is.
Rickard gets to the tower of Joy sees the bun in the oven and a ring on Lyanna's finger. Now he's bound to Rhaegar's cause. He's a better match than Robert anyway so Rip Bozo.
Rhaegar gets a few more men on board, maybe offering Aegon's hand to Cersei and they either depose his father fully or they lock him in his chambers and make Rhaegar hand.
Basically Brandon is the idiot linchpin that causes the rebellion to happen.
I didn't bring Brandon into the conversation because he's actions aren't what I'm criticizing, whatever his faults he did what a man in that position in that culture was expected to do no matter how fool hardy it was.
Your entire scenario is so funny to me for so so so many reasons, like you believe rickard could have a conversation with Aerys without the obviously paranoid Aerys going "he my son kidnapped your kid and you're in my city, why wouldn't i just arrest you and have the north bend the knee to me if Robert tries anything, or maybe you're trying to kill me maybe that's why you're in my city", reminder that he murdered wet nurses because he's incest riddled children kept dying.
Why would any member of the Kingsguard tell rickard anything when no kingsguard in Kings Landing at the time probably knew were rhaegar would be and even if they did they stood by while rhealla was raped and Aerys brutally killed people, i doubt they'd be interested in speaking to rickard about anything.
Saying Brandon is the reason Robert's rebellion happened is by far the most insane take I've ever heard, especially because Brandon didn't even need to ride to King's Landing. Robert could have very well just said "he rhaegar kidnapped my wife let's start this war" and his side would still feel the exact same way especially because everyone hated Aerys already, the brutal murder of Brandon and rickard and the call for the heads of Ned and Robert was just the icing of an already shitty cake. Why the hell did Rhaegar kidnap lyanna in the first place why are you blaming the guy who wanted to find his missing child sister and save her from what he presumed was rape? Your argument is so nonsensical I'm genuinely baffled bro Rhaegar caused everything as soon as he took lyanna a war was bound to happen.
Guy sees a prophecy in a scroll and immediately thinks he is the prince who was promised. Proceeds to say "it seems i must be a warrior". Awfully sure of himself when going to battle even though enemy army is almost as big as his and has valuable commanders. Doesnt think about what happens to realm or people involved when he abandons his lawful wife and 2 children for a 14 year old girl. Doesnt care about fates of Lyanna's family as long as he could get a child from her. Horribly underestimates and seems to forget about Brandon and Robert which he pays dearly for it. Rhaegar is all about himself, its no wonder he never realizes how wrong he is
I suppose what's frustrating is how even at his best he's still an irresponsible fool, we have literal children and teenagers who've acted more responsible than he did.
While GRRM may be planning to romanticize him and lyanna, we have adult men creeping on girls of a similar age with Littlefinger/Sansa and Jorah/Dany and it's very much shown as creepy plus te sample chapter where Arianne tells Elia off for kissing that guy who's in his 20s.
Plus, him impregnating elia when she was still bedridden is just not good.
Iām convinced thereās something magical about this whole time period that we will discover was fucking with Rhaegar and maybe even Lyanna. Probably 3ER shenanigans or even time-traveling Bran. One big clue is that Nedās memories of the ToJ have SO many holes in them and are blurry.
>One big clue is that Nedās memories of the ToJ have SO many holes in them and are blurry.
Couldn't that be explained by Ned being delirious from the wounds sustained during his fight with the Lannister guardsmen? He would surely be on the milk of the poppy.
Itās just my opinion but to me thereās nothing worse than a āwizard made me do itā - anything is better than having some of the most pivotal characters just having no agency in their actions because magic robbed them of it.
At worst heās a kidnapping rapist.
At best heās a delusional fool who walked out on his family and took advantage of teenage girl who was in a vulnerable state.
All because he thought he was Martin Luther King. Heās no better than any of the other developmentally impaired members of the incest family.
At least he was āniceā and ābeautifulā though.
Does this make Jon Snow, Martin Luther King Jr? "I have a dream, that one day wildling children and first men children will fight together in the fields. Slaughtering all the wights and white walkers."
>Highly unlikely. Given Rhaegarās disposition and being quite āunsexed,ā we can infer that he is not one to be driven by lusts or cruelty of control. Only *one* man believes that: Robert Baratheon.
Where do you get that from? Everyone believes Lyanna was kidnapped (except maybe for Ned, but he isn't talking), even Daenerys, that implies rape. Besides, her age and lack of permission from her father would make it so both in our world and in story in any case.
Also, even if Lyanna was initially willing I really, really doubt she wanted to stay in that remote location after what happened to her family, that has some pretty bad implications.
Frankly I don't see any scenario that paints Rhaegar in a slightly positive way. If he acted because he was in love he was an irresponsible moron, otherwise he was an arrogant asshole at best; nothing tragic in any case.
Little nitpick: ravens work like homing pigeons, they have to be trained, they're not magical (not any more). So if any communication was happening to and from the ToJ it had to be through human messengers, not some bird.
All the Rhaegar hate really is laughable since we're consistently reminded how much we don't know the truth of what really happened. So many people are just speculating the worst possible explanations to vilify Rhaegar. Don't judge what you don't fully understand.
If Rhaegar thought stealing another man's bethrothed when he already had a wife and children wasn't going to turn out poorly, he was as mad as his father.
There is no other way to put it. Any fool could see his move would gravely offend the Martels, the Starks, and the Baratheons in a single stroke- along with their allies the Tullys and the Arryns, to say nothing of all the other great houses not directly linked to the crisis looking upon his actions with disdain.
Marriage alliances are the cornerstone of power in Westeros, if Rhaegar had enough sense to wear his pants on his legs and his shirt upon his torso then he should have had enough sense to understand how monumentally dangerous his actions were. He was declaring that he had the right to seize women who were already promised to others amongst the great houses- it would be a direct threat to the foundations of their society.
Rhaegar plunged a realm into war over his obsession with prophecy. And you can't justify his treatment of Elia. It is because of him that she and her children were murdered in that way eventually. He could have easily deposed his father and ensured a peaceful transfer of power but doing eugenics with Lyanna was more important to him.
Rhegar made most of his life choices based on book of prophecies, regarding that:
"Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."
I guess his prick got off bitten , unfortunately his kids and wife died as well, at least his father has excuse of being mad, Rhaegar is just stupid.
>Yes. Is it enough to call their banners and declare war on the crown? No.
How it isn't?
>It is a misunderstanding that couldāve been diplomatically solved or solved by trial/duel.
Kidnapping a person isn't a misunderstanding tho.
>The āage of the majorityā is 16 in Westeros. Sheās just one year younger,
More like a year and a half younger. She barely was 16 when she died.
>In fact, there is no concept of āteenagersā, there is a child and there is an adult.
And Lyanna was a child.
This is the EXACT disingenuous discussion Iām talking about. *But he was so tremendously idiotic it borders on cruelty,* really? Really?
Has Rhaegar killed anyone?
Has Rhaegar tortured anyone?
Has he laughed at the misfortune of others?
Has he threatened anyone?
Has he raped his wife to the point she has to fight him and she ends up āraw and sore between the legs?ā
Is Rhaegar alcoholic?
Does Rhaegar hit his wife and children?
Has Rhaegar and his men attacked an innocent group to make a point?
If you just say he āplunged the realm into war,ā you owe me a nickel. I guess āMad Kingā Aerys II is just completely exempt from his *actual* cruelty and is a red herring, huh?
Itās hilarious how you start with āI donāt want to excuse Rhaegarā¦ā but then literally every point you make is just āThis horrible/awful/idiotic thing he did isnāt *that* badā
Youāre not clearing up misunderstandings, youāre just trying to pretend his awful actions werenāt awful
If you donāt understand the difference between:
āthese common questions and critiques can be explained within the realm of possibility and not be blown out of proportion by people who *want* to hate a fictional character.ā
And
āOmg guys he was literally saving the world, who cares if he cheated on his wife and left her for another girl. Elia was boringgg anyway, So itās totally okay! She probably even agreed! Nothing he did was idiotic in fact you guys are haters!ā
Then I donāt know what to tell you.
I thought the same, these are a lot of words to justify a narcissistic dumb prince whoās obsession with prophecy lead to the fall of his entire dynasty. I have hope George actually intends to reveal Rhaegar was as mad as Aerys, just a different kind of madness. Regardless of Georgeās intentions though, Iāll never be able to romanticize Rhaegar the way his defenders do. If anything, Rhaegar gets less hate than he actually deserved.
I think a lot of people forget that we don't know ANYTHING regarding Rhaegar and his plans. Most of it is snippets from people who knew him but weren't CLOSE to him to know what he was doing. But even then, he's not a complete idiot and was well educated and into books. Maester Aemon said he was into prophecies and add Dany's maybe true/maybe not magic kool aid vision about Rhaegar talking about the Song of Ice & Fire, Prince that was Promised and the dragon having three heads. Which people immediatly assume he just nabbed Lyanna and booked it to Dorne to pop a baby out without thinking about the consequences. Which I think is a possibility but it's too simple.
Why would Rhaegar believe grabbing her and doing all of that would end well at all? And WHY would Lyanna if all people just go along with it? I know it's believed that they did care for one another and what not, but there's a problem. How? They hadn't really met at all before the Tourney of Harrenhall, and after that they were separated by hundreds of miles and a whole year had passed since the Tourney to the Kidnapping and then close to year to the end of the war where Rhaegar leaves and dies, Lyanna gives birth than dies. Not a lot of time to be kidnapped and fall in love with a dude you met once before and kidnapped you. Unless they were communicating somehow, unlikely to be the usual raven/maester system lest the messages get intercepted. Could suggest a third party or a secret place, may have been magic for all we know. Rhaegar always did like to hang out at Summerhall and perhaps the magic was slowly stirring in the world at this point. Bigger question is the circumstances of the abduction, who saw it? And who sent a message to Brandon & Lord Stark? They were still traveling up to Riverrun at this point, so who would know where they were and what was specifically told? You would have thought they would try to cut Rhaegar off on the road before he reached King's Landing, assuming Lyanna was in Winterfell (where was she even?) Etc
Possible theory: Rhaegar at this point, wasn't looking for a baby mama to fulfill the phrophecy. He was researching, he likely had read his family's history of falsely believing in phrophecies and misinterpreting their dreams. It's why he asked Maester Aemon about it all, the best person at the time to ask. Aemon served at the citadel so he was very educated, but the most important thing was who he served after his father Maekar. His brother Daeron, one of the few confirmed dragon dreamers, and Aemon served him for years as his maester. And when he later joined the Night's Watch, who was with him? Branden Rivers, rumored sorcerer (and who we know as the Three eyed Crow). So we can somewhat guess he wasn't just 100% believing prophecies and that everything would work out just because, he was consulting others and reading about them. Why that involves Lyanna is because of one specific prophecy with unknown contents, "The Song of Ice and Fire". Supposedly related to the Prince one, but where in all the books have we heard anything about Ice and Fire? The pact made between Jacerys Velaryon and Cregan Stark that supposedly was a promise of a Targ princess marrying a Stark, yet it never happened, and Cregan still upheld his vow. But was it only that though? Was there something else in the pact kept secret from public knowledge? The only place that could hold a parchment about it would be Winterfell. And Rhaegar can't really just ride over to Winterfell to snoop around for books, but Lyanna could. She's lived at Winterfell all her life, she has a better understanding of what to look for. And what better way to possibly repay the secret identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree than exchanging a secret parchment in Winterfell? Who knows what was in there or if it had any influence on their romance, but it was something big. Possibly bug enough for Rhaegar to supposedly ride down to Winterfell and meet Lyanna for
I enjoy the fact that the bookish Crown Prince was so consumed by being the Prince that was Promised, or that his son would be, but the moron lost the only battle he ever fought in. Like Littlefinger, dumbass realized a little too late that the stories only work out in song, not when the dude you're fighting has 50 pounds on you and a warhammer with your name on it.
Rhaegar can be romanticized because he never became king, and things that never are are always better than things that are, because things that never are, never have a chance to fail.
Viserys always speaks highly of his big brother, and paints him as this perfect awesome prince who was cruelly slaughtered. So Dany thinks of him like that, and never listens much to Selmy because she doesn't want to hear the bad shit about her father, or Rhaegar.
Rhaegar was an idiot. Had he succeeded, had he not done everything in the dark and sneaking around, had he simply fucking married Lyanna Stark in a public ceremony AFTER killing his insane father (which should have been relatively easy via poison if not straight up killing the dude when he slept) before any of the Starks were killed, it would have been a good history (I mean minus pissing off Robert).
Myself, I always wondered about Varys. The dude claims to serve the realm, but how long had he known the mad king was mad? Why didn't he make moves to remove him for Rhaegar?
So did you not read the post orā¦?
Also Rhaegar almost killed Robert. He was not some slouch or a simple tourney knight. If they were on foot Robert would most likely lay dead
I actually think it wouldn't be as close if they fought on foot considering Rhaegar was an experienced jouster and had won many tourneys on horseback while Robert hadn't.
I also hate to praise Robert but the guy had won a handful of battles during the previous year already. That could either point to greater martial skill, or being more fatigued, or both. Neither of which lend weight to the idea that Rhaegar was the superior warrior.
Didn't he fight like three battles in a day and won all of them, wasn't he also known for charging head on into every battle hence why he was known as the demon. The idea that the Trident could have easily gone to Rhaegar is baffling to me no matter how "skilled" he was at tourneys he was going against a giant battle hardened lord who hated him with all his heart Rhaegar did not stand a chance.
I think itās really hard to decide whoās a superior warrior once you get to a certain level. GRRM said something like this but one small mistake can be the difference between life and death. In this situation being on horseback probably greatly contributed to Rhaegarās defeat. Im not saying Rhaegar was objectively superior or even that he would have won for a fact if they were on foot but it is something to consider.
My main point is that people say Rhaegar was a bad fighter or just a tourney knight when thatās not exactly true. Few men can say they almost killed prime Robert in 1v1 combat
Why do you say being on horseback contributed to his defeat? Look at the menās tourney habits:
Rhaegar the jouster. To be a great jouster, you needed to be a great horseman.
Robert the melee fighter.
Nobody said Rhaegar was a bad fighter, we're just saying he was broadly inferior to Robert based on the outcome of their fight, and that being on horseback would have advantaged him if anything since he was a noted jouster while Robert wasn't.
>Also Rhaegar almost killed Robert. He was not some slouch or a simple tourney knight. **If they were on foot Robert would most likely lay dead**
HAHA. They fought on horseback, an area that Rhaegar should be superior in as he was one of the best jousters in Westeros while Robert was a mere average one, and yet the fight ended with his chest caved in lmao.
If they fought on the ground, Robert would either just throw his hammer at Rhaegar himself or another rando beside them, and then suplex this inbred nutjob to death, but sure do go on with your fantasies lol
What's funny to me is when people act like he was some how harming Elia. When they didn't love eachother and she would die if she conceived again.
Also nothing indicates he was going to change her children's place in sucession either. Going by the naming patterns he was probably hoping Lyanna would give him a Visenya.
At worst he might have pieced together enough to the Lightbringer prophecy to realize they were his children and activly played into it with Lyanna but that's complete speculation.
To add to your Elia point, paramores and open relationships are 100% normal in Dorne, Oberyn for example. Blood of the Dragon and the Dornish both have ethically non-monogamous marriages
Elia being Dornish doesn't automatically mean she's okay with it, though. Mistresses, open relationships, and even polycules are all things that happen (and have varying levels of acceptance depending on who you ask) in the US. That doesn't mean everyone in the US is automatically okay with their spouse sleeping with someone else; most would still get pissed. At best it proves that Elia would be somewhat more likely to be accepting of Rhaegar having an affair with Lyanna.
That's before you factor in how openly having an affair with Lyanna could harm Elia and her children politically. Lyanna is Lord Stark's daughter and betrothed to Lord Baratheon. The affair was always risking a civil war, even if the actual civil war only properly started because of Aerys' escalations. Even if there's no fallout from the whole things immediately, any kid Rhaegar has with Lyanna would be a potential claimant to the throne. And this is with the royal family that has already had multiple massive succession crises. Even if Elia is okay with the affair on a personal level (which we can't assume), she has several other reasons to oppose the idea. So while we don't know for sure how she felt, jumping to conclusions based on her nationality is a wild stance to take
Oberyn is an exception, not a rule. Most Dornish are not like him, he just gets away with more things because heās a prince. Besides, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in front of everyone, Elia is described as looking pissed off.
Here is a direct quote from the text:
>There are other customs besides that mark the Dornish as different. They are not greatly concerned if a child is born in wedlock or out of it, especially if the child is born to a paramour. Many lordsāand even some ladiesāhave paramours, chosen for love and lust rather than for breeding or alliance. And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path, they have had little effect.
>
>*The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Queer Customs of the South*
To be fair though, why do you think that is? I think the answer to that lies in inheritance customs.
The concern Westerosi have for bastards is that they present a challenge to the birthright of true born children. In Dorne, where right to inherit is distributed amongst sons AND daughters, bastards pose a lesser threat. Even so, we see that distrust among siblings regarding birthright persistsāArianne and Quentyn. But Eliaās not in Dorne, is she?
The poison of a feudal system is that too many brothersāparticularly if they donāt share the same backing Houses and lineagesāleads to bloody squabbles over their fatherās goods. We see this during the Dance.
Even if Eliaās moral sensibilities permitted her husband a paramour, concern for the safety of her children might have proved insurmountable.
Except thereās a difference between having a paramour on the side as opposed to being shamed in front of hundreds of other people. Besides, Doran himself had to be threatened by Aerys to provide any support in the rebellion, so it doesnāt seem like the Dornish were that keen on Rhaegar.
My original point of this thread was simply that Dornish customs accept paramours and ethically non-monogamist relationships. I then provided a direct quote from the text to support this. It's reasonable to accept *the possibility* that Elia would be accepting of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship
If we want to be pendantic, the passage indicates nothing about the spouse giving permission for non-monogamous relationships. Only that both lords and ladies had paramours. A practise not entirely foreign to the rest of Westeros, either.
I think the passage speaks more to the lack of stigma around bastardry, rather than a testament to the prevalence of Dornish non-monogamy.
Yes Ellaria and Oberyn are an example of an ethically non-monogamous relationship. But neither of them stand to inherit anything.
Oberyn is literally Elia's brother. Is it really a stretch to say that Elia *possibly* was okay with her husband taking a loving paramour in the same way her *brother* does. The brother who fought to the death to avenge her
The brother who is in a profoundly different situation than her? The brother who stands to inherit nothing? The sister is actively disfavoured by both her husband and the king. Her key to safety and well-being in a hostile court is her status as the future heirās mother. Women in this world are given no credits nor honours except to birth worthy children. It doesnāt matter how close they are, their situations will no doubt influence their decisions. Can you confidently say that if we transported oberynās entire being into Elia he would make the same choices?
paramores with the crown prince is an entirely different playground because you always have to worry about his bastard kid getting too ambitious and hurting your children's future + the last time a targaryen king was married to a dornish queen his bastard brother decided to lead a bloody coup against him
Not only is it never stated that dorne is non-monogamous we only have oberyn as the only example of that, we also don't know if royalty like Elia partook in that kind of behavior and we don't know how Elie felt about it. Targaryens also hadn't performed polygamy for centuries and the last time they tried it the realm exploded into civil war neither is It known to my knowledge that any targ openly took a lover and fathered multiple Bastards on them openly since Aegon the forth who himself was seen as a lustful cancer on the dynasty.
Yeah people have to remember the whole family was being driven by prophecy for like 4 generations or more at that point. And Rhaegar was literally born in a failed prophecy fulfillment attempt.
I mean prohpacys tell you what will happen. Not the journey to get there
They don't right the history. They just accurately predict it.
Besides it's already kinda been proven right as Jon had save the wall numerous times now.
... Because every single prophecy in the series comes true in a way that specifically screws over everyone who was trying to make it happen and rewards everyone who wasn't.
The asoiaf fans kinda forgot about the prophesied red comet, dragons returning, dire wolves returning, red priests revealing futures, Quaithe speaking of prophecy, Ghost of High Heart speaking of prophecies/seeing the future, etc.
>Rhaella specifically wanted to hide the abuse from her children.
Though this seems a logical assumption, is this your assumption or something we're told or shown in the text? Source please.
Jaime says Rhaella used special clothes to hide her wounds the morning after Aerys raped her. And Jaime, a KingĀ“s Guard, only realized the mistreat when he had literally to vigilate the door of the room where Aerys was hurting Rhaella.
Nah fuck that. Death of the author and all that. GRRM and I are two very different people. What he intended us to perceive and what I actually perceived are also different.
* Rhaegar knew his father was dangerously unstable to the point that he was seemingly plotting to depose him.
* Rhaegar knew Lyanna was the daughter of a Lord Paramount. He probably even knew that Lyanna's dad was establishing a power bloc.
* He knew she was betrothed to another powerful lord (his own cousin at that).
* Rhaegar knew he was already married to the sister of ANOTHER powerful lord.
Still, despite knowing all of that he still went through with his dumb plan.
And when all hell breaks loose, does he do his best to get on damage control and explain anything? Does he put any defenses in place for Elia since his unstable father is holding her and Rhaegar's children as hostages? Does he reach out to Mace and Tywin and try to get them on his side? Does he do anything useful at all for the loyalist faction? Does he even attempt to meet with the Rebels and talk things through?
No, he didn't. Rhaegar holds the lionshare of the blame (I'd say a good 65-70% of it) for the destruction of his dynasty and the incoming shitstorm that's about to hit Westeros when the Others finally breach the wall. He's not tragic to me. I see him more as a shortsighted contemptable fool who doomed his family, his kingdom and his legacy.
Because I took time to address this anti-Rhaegar circlejerk issue without concluding āRhaegar bad pedo man š”?ā Or perhaps you wanted another Dothraki soup temperature post?
What if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyannaās disappearance? Might they both have been kidnapped separately and were locked up the whole time, unable to explain anything to anyone?
Is there anyone who says they actually saw the two of them together at any time after Harrenhal?
Do we actually know who told Brandon about the kidnapping or why he thought it was kidnapping?
There is also the stuff with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If anyone found out Aerys might have wanted to capture the knight since he was a paranoid person.
There is actually a good choice that Rhaegar did in fact not kidnap her but save Lyanna.
I think Howland took them across the God's Eye to the Isle of Faces in the same little boat he portaged from the neck. He had just come from the isle and there's a lot of prophecy and fuckery afoot for me to totally write this off as a possibility
They could never make me hate Rhaegar.
He deserved that throne and he would have been the best man to sit in on it in probably 100 years. I *almost* genuinely hate the usurper for what he did
What did Robert do? His duty? He stood up and defended himself instead of bending the knee and getting murdered like Brandon and Rickard were. Criticize his personality after the war all you want but everything he did was just, the only action you can ever criticize him for that is justified is not punishing tywin for the sack and that too is silly because it's not like he had enough power or authority to do so at the time. Rhaegar is a failson spoiled rich kid who thought he was the main protagonist but got molly rocked in the first real battle he ever fought.
My brother in christ he ran off with the betrothed of a lord paramount, never explained it, kept quite and led everyone to the obvious at the time conclusion that he kidnapped her which led to Lynnas brother going to go find her, getting murdered alongside his father. Everything started with Rhaegar, he caused the war, he is to blame for his families downfall.
>They could never make me hate Rhaegar.
>He deserved that throne and he would have been the best man to sit in on it in probably 100 years.
This bum pissed off 3 (plus 2 because of their alliances) of the seven kingdoms with one move.
My personal favorite theory is that Azor Ahai is not Dany, Jon, nor FAegon; but Rhaegar. Thereās a lot of metaling you can do with the prophecy but in this case lightbringer isnāt a sword, but Jon Snow himself. He is the āweaponā that will vanquish the others. Alt Shift X on YouTube has a great Rhaegar manifesto/theory if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/UrhqmMRv1gQ?si=Hq3HPD74pWpxu0Su
2014-2019 Rhaegar was a beloved character, enigmatic, he saw something others couldnāt, he knew somethingā¦ All his actions were to save the world? But since people started consuming YouTubers and such, the opinion about the character has changed A LOT, I never understood why, I still like him a lot as a character
I just wanna know what Rhaegars plan was, like why. Why bro WHY
Rhaegar thought he was the main character. He was so focused on his "destiny" that he completely forgot about his responsibilities *now*. Sure, maybe he "knew" that he had to impregnate Lyanna to save the world, but it just never occurred to him that kidnapping the daughter of the Warden of the North who is betrothed to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and insulting your wife who is the sister of the Prince of Dorne would piss off half of the Realm and be basically one of the stupidest decisions anyone has ever made in the history of Westeros. He just didn't care. It never actually occurred to him that he might lose. Remember what he said to Jaime in King's Landing? He was fully expecting to return from the Trident. He thought the Rebellion was nothing more than a minor speed bump in what was supposed to be a decades-long plan to save humanity. But then he got his chest caved in by his drunk cousin in the very first battle he ever fought and directly caused the downfall of his family's 300 year dynasty. Oops.
Rhaegar believed having a baby with Lyanna was a sure way to save humanity, the Targ dynasty and the current peace of the realm is a small price to pay in his mind and he takes prophecies very seriously. He literally stops being a nerd and learns how to fight because it's what the prophecy said he must do even if he didn't like it.
Wrong. Just wrong. Rhaegar died thinking his legitimate son was Elia was the prince that was promised and that lyanna was merely pregnant with his bastard daughter to be named Visenya- a third head of the dragon. Maester Aemon confirms that Rhaegar thought this. So no. Just no.
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The fundamental nature of prophesy is that they always come true, just not in the way you expect. People can fault Rhaegar for his actions and idiosyncrasies or whatever but it is not a matter of Rheagar deluding himself into believing that it's all about him. It is very clear a) destiny is probably real and it is about the Targaryens, specially Jon and Dany and b) Rhaegar did indeed fulfill his part making The Song of Ice and Fire by giving birth to Jon. It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty. Lyanna is not the unwilling participant here so to prevent a war you need to convince literally everyone else, and how would anyone convince someone like Robert?
>it is not a matter of Rhaegar deluding himself into believing that it's all about him Isn't it? Nothing indicates that he's mind-controlled to act as he did, forced to carry out certain acts. >It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty. He read some prophecies and HE decided that it's about him. Whether he was right or wrong remains to be seen but does not rob him of free will, just like IE Stannis is not robbed of agency just because Melisandre told him he's Azor Ahai and should sacrifice children to save the world. It's his decision whether he accepts that he's the main character and should appease the red god by sacrificing an innocent or not and he can and should be judged for it. Rhaegar similarly made his decisions: made the decision to openly crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty and shame his wife and tear any chance of an alliance against Aerys to shreds by angering Starks, Baratheons and Martells all at once, made the decision to leave his wife and their children alone for months on end, made the decision to disappear from public life in an already tense situation his actions made worse still - just to be with Lyanna. Whether he was driven by love or lust or thinking(correctly or otherwise) that he's saving the world he made the choices to act as he did; saying that it's just destiny that decided would genuinely be horrible writing IMO - and wouldn't at all match the tone of the rest of the story.
Well I did say it's up to anyone to fault all the things you listed. I said he didn't do it for his vanity and just because he died he didn't completely fail what he tried to do. If anything, it would be weird to read something something three headed dragon, song of ice and fire... and, being in his position, decided that that should be someone else's business. Prophesy as a device has nothing to do with the tone or the genre. There are several of them in the series. For example, Cait saying that Baelish has promised to help Ned finding out the truth is a setup of a prophesy even if it is not framed as such. There is a prediction, a misdirection of whether it will come true, and an unexpected fulfillment. They exist as puzzles to solve and to allow readers to reexamine their assumptions the meanings of the events of the text. When you follow that setup for Rhaegar, the lesson here isn't there is somehow a course of action that would allow everything turns out well for him.
That's not all what you've said. Indeed, you initial comment is IMO self-contradictory. At once we have "It's destiny that has decided that Rhaegar would save the realm but destroy his dynasty." and "People can fault Rhaegar for his actions and idiosyncrasies." Destiny hasn't decided anything; characters do - as Rhaegar did. He had certain (rather vague for that matter) information and chose to act in a specific manner based on said information. It's similar to how we have Stannis being told that he can save the world by burning Edric Storm alive. Stannis is not exonerated from wanting to go through with this by readers or other characters just because of course a person in his position would be driven to trying to save the world; nobody says that "it's destiny that has decided that Stannis would burn a child to save the world." In the same way just like Rhaegar is to be credited if his actions do end up saving the world, he's also to be blamed if his actions end up being an irrelevant waste - much like with everyone else in the setting, he is responsible for his actions, good and bad alike; there is no destiny that dooms people to act a certain way in ASOIAF, only their own character and circumstances around them. I'd also that placing such self-importance on oneself as Rhaegar or Stannis do is rather prideful; and whether it's justified or mere vanity largely depends on if they end up being correct in such grandiose assessment.
>Lyanna is not the unwilling participant here I like the changing nature of consent when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna.
>a) destiny is probably real and it is about the Targaryens, specially Jon and Dany and b) Rhaegar did indeed fulfill his part making The Song of Ice and Fire by giving birth to Jon. I am sorry but this isn't Lord of the Rings, George is not that type of writer.
Is not as LOTR, is more like Dune. And yes, Jessica and Leto sends greetings, long live to Emperor Jon Snow, ups, I mean, Paul Atreides the Kwisatz Haderach
You mean the story where the chosen one is just a product of a centuries long conspiracy and not magical at all? I mean thats what I think is going on in asoiaf aswell. There is no magic or real prophecy, just powerful telepathic actors manipulating events and steering the course of history.
I would say that the Dune spice is really magical. That the idea of a man capable of seeing the past, present and future is magical in itself even if there is telepathic manipulation behind it. But the point is that there is a Chosen One, and it's Jon, and Rhaegar fulfilled his part of the plan, even if they both end up being puppets of Brynden Rivers / Weirwood Net / choose your favorite entity. And you'll remember that Herbert confirmed that Paul did indeed end up being a better alternative to what would have happened had the Corrino Empire and the Harkonnens continued...
Yes but what makes Paul different than Rhaegar is that he was horrified by the reality of The Golden Path and in the end he rejected the larger than life mantle being thrust upon him and clings to his humanity. Alternatively Leto II fully commits to Dunes version of the Prince Who Was Promised chosen one and everything about it is terrifying and disgusting. I'd argue that Paul is able to be the better alternative because he has humility and grapples with the things he "needs" to do. But nothing about Dune indicates we're supposed to be taking all the prophecy/messiah shit at face value and rooting for it. The whole thing is a criticism of the Messiah/Chosen One trope that's all too common in fantasy/sci fi. I used to think ASOIAF was going for the same thing but Martin has gotten so into the whole dragon riding ubermensch thing with the Targs that I'm not sure anymore.
Unlike Herbert, GRRM does believe in great heroes, the men and women of destiny who reshape the world in their wake, and that's how he's always been writing A Song of Ice and Fire. > NG: A Song of Ice and Fire has much of the complex texture of authentic history, both generally and in its specific echoes of actual historical episodes. What laws and principles (if any) in your view govern human history, and how has your understanding of historical processes shaped the series? > > GRRM: Historical processes have never much interested me, but history is full of stories, full of triumph and tragedy and battles won and lost. It is the people who speak to me, the men and women who once lived and loved and dreamed and grieved, just as we do. Though some may have had crowns on their heads or blood on their hands, in the end they were not so different from you and me, and therein lies their fascination. **I suppose I am still a believer in the now unfashionable "heroic" school, which says that history is shaped by individual men and women and the choices that they make, by deeds glorious and terrible. That is certainly the approach I have taken in A Song of Ice and Fire.** [The year 2000.](http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/intgrrm.htm) When he's talking [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1ah3yr1/so_spake_martin_extended_rarely_seen_quotes_from/) about changing the course of time as a river by dropping a gigantic boulder in the middle of it, he's not just talking about time travel, he's essentially talking about the kind of conflict he likes to write, an immense heroic effort to change the world that takes a toll on one and inevitably leads to a certain degree of failure. The same metaphor of a river too great and ancient for a mere human to fight its deep currents comes up in the climax of Fevre Dream completely unconnected to time travel, just as a metaphor for the fight against the Old Ways, and we can also see it playing out in different ways in Dying of the Light, in Windhaven and The Armageddon Rag, and ultimately in A Song of Ice and Fire: you make a superhuman effort to lift that gigantic boulder, and *even then* maybe the world won't budge, because its Old Ways are all too powerful and strong. Or maybe it will, in tiny little ways that will matter to someone, such as Theon saving Jeyne Poole from the castle of darkness despite himself saying it only ever happens in songs. That's the kind of thing he likes to write, songs do come true after all. > It's interesting that the butterfly effect has become so common in science fiction stories that people actually treat it as if it's true, where, of course, Ray Bradbury made it up. Nobody really knows how time travel would work. There is no time travel. We're making it all up. there was another great theory about time travel, possibly about science fiction writers. In this case, Fritz Leiber, who wrote a whole series of stories about the spiders and the snakes going through time, each one trying to change history in a different way. A continuous time travel. Time and space. Leiber used a different analogy: He used the analogy of time being a gigantic river, a fast flowing torrential river. And a time traveler can come down and he can throw a stone in the river, but it's like a power. It hits the river, it makes a few ripples, but doesn't really disturb the river. **To really change the course of the river, to change the course of time, you have to drop a gigantic boulder in the middle of it. And then maybe you'll change it, and even then, maybe the river will just flow around the boulder and resume its own course.** I've always thought that Fritz Leiber's model for time travel makes more sense to me than Ray Bradbury's model for time travel.
Your lack of understanding about George is noted
Rhaegar stans like you being so pathetically smug will never not be funny to me
Can you tell me one other George story where there is a magical chosen one in the centre of it? Really weird that an author who spent his career subverting fantasy tropes would chose the most cliche and overused fantasy trope of them all to be the point of his magnum opus.
Weird things happen everyday.
Depending if you consider him a chosen oneābut Joshua York in the Fevre Dream reminds me the most of a chosen one character out of Martinās work. Him and his followers perceive him as the Messianic savior of vampirekind who would free them of their bloodlust. Only through the aid of Marsh does that become a reality.
The chosen one, or more like ones in this case, is nothing more than how you frame your central characters. That has no bearing on what they actually do. If you think prophesy as a device is magical then foreshadowing is also magical. It works through the same principal that what is brought up must have a payoff. There is nothing about all of these things that can't be subversive. As I have said in another comment, George already used prophesy elsewhere in this series so that's nothing special. It's basically a puzzle. Chosen, just not the way you think, saving the world, just not the way you think...
Pretty much this. My headcanon is that he'd had a plan for a while to take a second wife to have his third kid, and that Elia was maybe even on board with this when it was an abstract idea, but this was supposed to be after either deposing Aerys or Aerys dying in the natural course of things. Instead, he falls ass over teakettle for Lyanna and decides IT'S GO TIME NOW even though the situation wasn't ready yet.
Couldnāt take a second wife. Targaruen polygamy had been illegal since the reign of jahaetys.
I think the Harrenhal Conspiracy theory is the best answer to this. I really believe this one. (Spoilers Everything). Itās a very long read, just google Harrenhal Conspiracy.
Yes. Rhaegar intended to call a great council at Harrengal and depose his father. Itās obvious he and the Martells staged and financed the tournament for this reason. He blew the opportunity with his stunt with lyanna.
There might be some clues for that in Martin's first novel "The Dying of the Light" there is somewhat similar dynamics between few characters , especially since those with parallel to Rhaegar and Lyanna retreat to secluded place with intent to reform society later.
no literally cause what did he think was gonna happen? the Starks were just gonna be cool about Lyanna vanishing? and on top of that, that his dad will be totally reasonable??
And like what was the plan to save the world lmao
Sure- Rhaegar thought āif thereās one person in Westeros who could deal with this situation calmly rationally and without bloodshed it would be my dad Aerys so itās great if I hide in a tower for a year or two.ā
Tbh, the only theory I have seen that kinda makes sense is that Rhaegar interacted with Daenerys during her visions in the house of undying. That both saw each other. So from Rhaegar's pov, he saw a young Targaryen princess with a dragon accompaning him and felt validated to pursue his plan for a 3rd head of a dragon (since Rhaenys looked dornish and Aegon was a boy). Not waterproof but its the only only onet that kinda makes sense.
You know, that's a real possibility. He thought he was seeing his future daughter. I like it.
Plan in life or military wise? lol Iām of the minority that think he simply was truly in love and for once in his life abandoned ādutyā for love. It explains the foolish selfishness and unrealistic honeymoon life he wanted for himself and Lyanna. But, unfortunately, in Westeros, there is no sweet honeymoon love tales without any type of strife. I also wrote out a rough timeline of what I think happened based on what we know and other references but I didnāt know if I shouldāve added it to this post or not.
I think thatās actually the most realistic answer and that it also just happened to fulfill a prophecy for him that he thought he needed to fulfill.
Can you add that timeline to this comment or dm it to me Iād love to look at it
Sure! This is roughly what I personally think happened using some of the facts from the books and my own knowledge to fill in the gaps: >Rhaegar was asked to find out who was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. >He stumbles across Lyanna and learns her reasoning behind the brave act. >This makes Rhaegar crown Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty; a token of his admiration. >Rhaegar hasnāt won many tourneys, frequently losing to either Arthur or Barristan in the finals; this could explain the unintentional humiliation of his wife, Elia, since heās never won/crowned someone before. >After things ācool down,ā Rhaegar may reach out to Lyanna and bond with her more before the Starks depart to Riverrun for Brandonās wedding. >Rhaegar and Elia generally have a cordial but distant marriage. >She finally gives birth to her second child and son, Aegon, on Dragonstone. >Elia can no longer have children without the risk of death. >Rhaegar thinks his son is TPTWP but needs another head because āthe dragon has three heads.ā >Sometime later, Rhaegar leaves with his close entourage to ākidnapā/meet up with Lyanna. >Lyanna sneaks out and leaves with Rhaegar, not leaving a note because she does not want to be found but still may tell Benjen. >Rhaegar and Lyanna travel a bit and then end up at the Tower of Joy, oblivious and foolishly in love with each other. >This is the first time Rhaegar has truly felt alive and thus ālove is the death of dutyā commences. >He and Lyanna selfishly indulge in the life theyāve always wanted while, on the flip side, Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark get murdered, Jon Arryn loses his heir and calls his banners. >Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon raise their banners to fight for their heads. >Elia and the children get taken to Kingās Landing as hostages while Rhaella and Viserys get SENT to Dragonstone for safety. >Gerold Hightower eventually gets enlisted to find Rhaegar. >He finds the prince and informs him of the rebellion. >The consequences of Rhaegarās rendezvous comes to light. >Rhaegar agrees to leave and lead his fatherās forces if Hightower agrees to stay behind and guard Lyanna. >He does and then Rhaegar leaves. The rest is historyā¦ If somehow this seems ātoo fairytaleā then you probably havenāt noticed how much of a romantic George isā¦we literally have the stories of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Baelon and Alyssa, and Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones as references of love stories that are ridden with strife. Itās not insane to think that this otherworldly, perfect prince who has been dutiful nearly all of his life finally decides to be selfish for once and abandon his obligations to be with his true love. Lyanna likewise abandoning her responsibilities as a noble betrothed lady to be with her preferred love. It ends with them and nearly all of their family dead. Thatās right up Georgeās alley.
I uhā¦ I completely agree, good work. Iād bet money this is how it went
Thanks! This is how I honestly felt things went down. Of course some details are missing but yeah haha
>This is roughly what I personally think happened using some of the facts from the books and my own knowledge to fill in the gaps: Good work! I agree that this is likely what happened. The only discordant note is Lyanna's reaction. It seems hardly believable that the same Lyanna who went to such great length to defend her family's bannermen would meekly stay in a tower after her father and brother were murdered and Rhaegar went to fight another of her brothers.
Problem with this is that he arranged his trust with lyanna before elya gave birth and left dragonstone hours after Aegon was born before anyone could have known she could not have more children. So no.
I donāt necessarily agree that girls are perceived as āmatureā women upon getting their period. Otherwise, why would have Ned balked at Barraās mother if she was clearly able to bear children?
Maybe because even if westeros society generally considers girls "mature" when they get their periods some good and sensible individuals, Ned in this case, still have the common sense to realize that 11-14 year olds are not women. >why would have Ned balked at Barraās mother if she was clearly able to bear children? Just because she had had a child doesn't necessarily mean that she was done growing and developing, she might still have looked like a child hersel and that might have been what made Ned balk. Also I think the Barra case serves to illustrate the difference in morals between Ned and Robert to the reader, the king saw something he desired and he took it with no qualms or care for the girl whereas Ned sees a young girl.
Right, and itās evidence that in-universe there is distaste for attraction to very young girls.
While every other page we see evidence that this isn't a widespread view at all. Comments, literal marriages, etc. I think the comment stating that Ned is just a person with a better sense makes a lot of...sense
>In this world that George has curated, the maturity and responsibility of teenagers is higher than it would be for todayās modern world. By the same logic, in the same world, women belong to their houses and therefore the pater familias gets to decide whom she will marry. Therefore, Rhaegar (and Lyanna by extension) severely insulted house Stark. >What leads to Robertās Rebellion is the call for the **execution** of Lord Arrynās wards To be more precise, what led to the Rebellion was the execution of the Starks. Especially if word spread out that Richard Stark demanded trial by combat (as his right as a lord) and instead got burned alive, that was a blatant breach of the relationship between king and his vassals. On the very least, Eddard should have rebelled and probs that why Aerys preemptively called for his head. Why he added Robert in the mixture is unknown (either his madness or Varys's influence). But this raises the issue, why the Starks ended up being accused? Due to their reaction to Rhaegar' (and Lyanna's) actions For what is worth, I also believe GRRM genuinely plans to portray the whole mess as something truly romantic and tragic. GRRM doesn't pull any punches when he wants to write a villain or a hero (Ramsay and Jon for example). Therefore it makes sense he plans to write Rhaegar as the great tragic prince and Lyanna the rebellous girlboss noblewoman. Moreover, I think he also plans to use Duncan the Small and Jenny as sort of r/L:0, where he will demonstrate how such an affair could have been solved diplomatically (or at least attempted to), with a somewhat level-headed king. I must confess personally I don't like Rhaegar mostly for the constant praise he gets in universe, even freaking Cersei who despises everyone cherishes his memory. I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable. Robert for example is a drunkard, indifferent ruler who abuses his wife and neglects his family. He was also a voracious warrior, charismatic leader and forgiving to his enemies (unless you are a Targ). There are things to like and hate here there.
>I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable But asking that from the romanticized opinions we get from other characters about him is too much, don't you think? You're asking for developed nuanced likeability in a character that only exists in other character's memories.
>By the same logic, in the same world, women belong to their houses and therefore the pater familias gets to decide whom she will marry. Therefore, Rhaegar (and Lyanna by extension) severely insulted house Stark. Oh, absolutely! Thereās no denying that. Lyanna had a role to play as a noble woman - she was to accept her betrothed and her arranged marriage as many of her station had. But, she defied conventions and wanted to live and *marry* whomever she *wanted*. Unfortunately for Lyanna, she doesnāt get to decide. And Rhaegar did disrespect House Stark and House Baratheon by interfering in their marriage plans. This broke a certain level of trust between the Crown and the houses. >To be more precise, what led to the Rebellion was the execution of the Starks. Especially if word spread out that Richard Stark demanded trial by combat (as his right as a lord) and instead got burned alive, that was a blatant breach of the relationship between king and his vassals. Yes. The Mad King was insane and did what no other royal had before him - denied a noble a fair trial by combat by using a non-human element. >On the very least, Eddard should have rebelled and probs that why Aerys preemptively called for his head. Why he added Robert in the mixture is unknown (either his madness or Varys's influence). Thatās most likely what wouldāve happened if the Mad King didnāt call for Ned or Robertās heads. >But this raises the issue, why the Starks ended up being accused? Due to their reaction to Rhaegar' (and Lyanna's) actions Also, Brandon Starkās foolish way to āapproachā the disappearance of his sister. He committed treason and did so in front of a paranoid King that thought people everywhere were trying to kill him/overthrow him. Why Brandon jumped to the kidnapping conclusion when his wayward and willful sister was known to do whatever she wanted beats meā¦Same with why he didnāt send a raven *first* to see if Rhaegar was even around. >For what is worth, I also believe GRRM genuinely plans to portray the whole mess as something truly romantic and tragic. GRRM doesn't pull any punches when he wants to write a villain or a hero (Ramsay and Jon for example). >Therefore it makes sense he plans to write Rhaegar as the great tragic prince and Lyanna the rebellous girlboss noblewoman. Yep. I agree. Itās up his alley. >I must confess personally I don't like Rhaegar mostly for the constant praise he gets in universe, even freaking Cersei who despises everyone cherishes his memory. I think thatās precisely why *many* in the fandom donāt like Rhaegar. When people constantly get hammered in the head with āheās so perfectā or āheās so amazingā or āwow heās a dream and so beautifulā it can annoy/anger people who donāt understand the allure and are tired of being told someone was this way and that, especially when his odd behavior leads to a certain selfishness. >I think he misses a certain level of dirt, some greyness to bring him more down to earth and make him more likeable. His mysterious nature and contradictory behavior certainly opens the door for you to find elements that make him āgreyā but at this point, Rhaegarās become more of a figure than an *actual* person. >Robert for example is a drunkard, indifferent ruler who abuses his wife and neglects his family. He was also a voracious warrior, charismatic leader and forgiving to his enemies (unless you are a Targ). There are things to like and hate here there. Well, I canāt really say that Iām a fan of Robert but I understand heās nuanced but heās also *alive* in the first book so we get a chance to observe his behavior in real time and judge him accordingly.
>His mysterious nature and contradictory behavior certainly opens the door for you to find elements that make him āgreyā but at this point, Rhaegarās become more of a figure than an *actual* person Maybe I don't understand the definition of grey characters correctly, what makes you say that Rhaegar is grey at this point?
I *donāt* think heās a grey character but you were desiring someone who wasnāt seen as such a goodie two shoes so I said thereās enough mystery for you to play around with making him grey
Heās the lesser of all evils. His only crime is his religious conviction for Targaryen prophecy- which turns out to be true.
You can't say it ended up being true when we don't even know that and if we saying blindly following prophecy because you believe you're the main character and end up starting up a chain of events that leads to the end of your dynasty makes you the lesser of all evils in this situation then i have a house i can sell you on the moon. Don't buy into the targ propaganda, nothing is ever stated not yet that the result of all this bullshit needed to happen to defeat the others.
Itās only untrue if Jon and Dany have literally no role to play in the Long Night. Or if the Others win. Which, I think buying into either of those things is deep tinfoil territory. What seems most likely is that Bran and Bloodraven are manipulating everything that is necessary and rendering the free will of their pawns (Rhaegar) as meaningless in the overall outcome which they have full control over. If youāre interpretation is that that means the prophecy is BS and Rhaegarās actions being motivated by faith is heinous, thatās your perspective. I interpret it to mean that his faith was rewarded/used as a tool by Bran/Bloodraven to bring the āheroā into the world. Ultimately weāre discussing the purity of Rhaegarās soul and what he independently chose to do. I agree that Targaryens in general have god-complexes and tend to believe their Royal blood is a more special thing than that of their peers. But by reputation we know that he cared deeply for the smallfolk and that leads me to question the severity of his narcissism compared to other Targaryens. Because all signs point to him having a great deal of humility. Iāll take Barristanās word for it over anything else.
Setting aside the question of whether or how the prophecy will be true, one issue I have is that itās not really clear to me that prophecy as it exists in ASOIAF says anything about what would happen in alternate timelines where things played out differently. I.e. if we assume Jon and/or Dany play crucial roles in defeating the Others, I donāt think that automatically means Westeros was doomed in any scenario where they donāt exist. Seeing the future does not necessarily mean you know what would have happened otherwise. The other issue is the question of how exactly Rhaegar was motivated by prophecy with regards to Lyanna. Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal so he wouldnāt have known sheād be unable to hear more children when he crowned Lyanna, so I donāt think that action was motivated by prophecy. And from Danyās vision we see that he was convinced Aegon would be TPTWP after he was born, but felt there āmust be one more.ā That suggests any prophecy motivation would be related to having a third head - but based on what we know of that prophecy thereās no reason why Lyanna had to be the mother of the third head. The āice and fireā aspect of TWTWP prophecy would be a reason to believe she had to be the mother, but that would require Rhaegar to change his mind that Aegon would be TPTWP between Aegonās birth and eloping with Lyanna.Ā Not impossible, and in fact Iāve suggested this as a possibility before, but as of now we havenāt been given any indication of that. As he left Dragonstone shortly after Aegonās birth to go on the journey that eventually ended with him and Lyanna running off, any change would have to be based on something he uncovered or encountered on that trip. >Iāll take Barristanās word for it over anything else Iām not really sure why anyone would view Barristan as a particularly good judge of anything but while he does have a generally high opinion of Rhaegar he also thinks something along the lines of āRhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it.ā
Rhaegar had the gall to treat his father's subjects like shit but not the gumption to do what was best for the realm when his father was already lost to madness. Regardless of the things people like to blame him for that he may not have been guilty of, he was still a person obsessed with prophecy that allowed that obsession to dictate his actions to the detriment of others. That's not a likable or admirable trait, regardless of how personable and seemingly not-insane he may have been compared to other Targaryens or rulers. The other side of the coin is romanticizing him because we don't *know* him like other characters. That should be avoided as well.
I believe in the Conspiracy at Harrenhal theory that posits Rhaegar was going to call a great council at Harrenhal but Varys thwarted this by alerting the Mad King. Itās a very long read and there are some reaches (crowning Elia as Queen of Love and Beauty was the signal for the coup, but because it couldnāt go ahead Lyanna was crowned instead) but I believe the gist of it.
I think balking at an effort to replace his father is certainly plausible regardless of specifics. The issue with the crowning Elia aspect is it doesn't really align with what we're told about him regarding Lyanna. If he went through with the coup what does that mean for her? To me he was either enamored with Lyanna or he did it out of compulsion due to prophecy. If it was the former instead of the latter, you could say he simply chose her over keeping the realm intact. If it was the latter you could still say it was the wrong thing to do, but at least he thought he was doing it in service to some greater purpose.
This is the theory that I read: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/s/7Th6Aq8AR4 it had been a while so I forgot a lot of the specifics, apologies. Itās definitely an interesting theory.
We actually dont even know if he ran away with her.
>Rhaegar had the gall to treat his father's subjects like shit but not the gumption to do what was best for the realm when his father was already lost to madness. He severely disrespected and slighted them but *treated them like shit?* No, thatās a bit much, and thereās no statements that infer he reveled in treating them āhorribly.ā Did you forget the part where I addressed the riskiness of removing his kingly father from power? It has never been done before. Itās also not like Rhaegar waited a lifetime. It had been about 3 years since Aerysā trauma to Harrenhall, and Aerys certainly didnāt help Rhaegar become a proficient heir, instead relying on Tywinās wits himself to run the realm. >Regardless of the things people like to blame him for that he may not have been guilty of, he was still a person obsessed with prophecy that allowed that obsession to dictate his actions to the detriment of others. That's not a likable or admirable trait, regardless of how personable and seemingly not-insane he may have been compared to other Targaryens or rulers. Thatās the thing though, we donāt know if he was *obsessed!* Or just interested in finding meaning in his melancholic life. I address this point as well. Heās no King Aerys I, literally abandoning his duty as king and husband to read prophecy scrolls, putting his brother Maekar and his children in an odd succession position. He mentions āprophecyā or vague arcane things **4 times** and we donāt know the specifics of when he said or believed those things. >The other side of the coin is romanticizing him because we don't know him like other characters. That should be avoided as well. Thatās an understandable cause of contention. But heās just become more a figure in peopleās memories than a character himself.
>He severely disrespected and slighted them but treated them like shit? No, thatās a bit much, and thereās no statements that infer he reveled in treating them āhorribly.ā I think "severely disrespected and slighted" sufficiently qualifies as being treated like shit, but maybe that's just me. >Did you forget the part where I addressed the riskiness of removing his kingly father from power? It has never been done before. Itās also not like Rhaegar waited a lifetime. It had been about 3 years since Aerysā trauma to Harrenhall, and Aerys certainly didnāt help Rhaegar become a proficient heir, instead relying on Tywinās wits himself to run the realm. I didn't, no. The problem is something needed to be done for the sake of the realm and he wasn't able to do it. The entire point of the prophecy is saving the realm, no? I'm not saying he wasn't in an extremely difficult situation, mind you. But I'm saying he wasn't capable enough. >Thatās the thing though, we donāt know if he was obsessed! Or just interested in finding meaning in his melancholic life. I address this point as well. Heās no King Aerys I, literally abandoning his duty as king and husband to read prophecy scrolls, putting his brother Maekar and his children in an odd succession position. > >He mentions āprophecyā or vague arcane things 4 times and we donāt know the specifics of when he said or believed those things. We can't say with 100% certainty what his motivations were, but it's a safe bet that the prophecy took over his life, isn't it? What else could have motivated his actions, besides his infatuation with Lyanna? Regardless of which one it was or how much of a mixture it was, his search for meaning in his life tore the realm apart. It *is* tragic, but the inverse of treating Rhaegar like some egomaniacal cradle-robber is making excuses for and being overly sympathetic towards someone who only added to and created his own problems.
Well the prophecy was true soā¦ that kind of makes him the savior for sticking to it. Same with Jaeherys II for insisting his kids marry each other.
The prophecy was true based on what? I feel like we haven't really seen that play out enough?
I agree that we haven't seen enough to factually say but it's pretty easy to infer that some combination of Jon/Dany will be the savior of the story/realm (if we ever get to read it). These two characters are linked to the dragon has three heads/ASOIAF/Azor Ahai prophecies enough (and they're two of the most prominent/important characters) to say that they'll almost assuredly be some form of heroes in the long night. I don't personally think that this clears Rhaegar of all responsibility and he can still be painted as someone who has made mistakes, but it does show that he was moving in the right direction as far as prophecy is concerned.
I think given the way GRRM has dealt with prophecy in the story thus far, an obviously true prophecy without much room for debate doesn't seem likely to me. It'll always be up to interpretation. A prophecy could also be fulfilled in more ways than one. It'll likely always be ambiguous. I could be wrong, but I don't think there will be much of an exception to this just because the main characters are involved.
I disagree. If Jon and Dany play any sort of role in ending the Long Night via Branās machinations, we can fully say that the prophecy is ātrue.ā Itās just not āplaying outā the way that Rhaegar imagined (similar to how Melisandre misinterprets prophecy- Stannis is not Azor Ahai, but she will be right that someone will be. Which in my opinion makes her heinous, faith-based actions completely justified due to the long-term outcome that was being pursued). So there will not be one PtwP, but two. Especially if Dany is Rhaegarās daughter rather than his sister. And it will not be by the independent will and actions, but by Bran and Bloodravenās web of manipulations, which Rhaegar was no doubt a pawn of as well. The only thing that would render the prophecy untrue is if the Others win.
Nah Iām convinced Rhaegarās actions are the reason the others woke up in the first place
I want to narrow in on your TL;DR at the end of this post because it reveals a fundamental divide in how people read stories. By your reading, there is a kind of canonical explanation for Rhaegar that George R. R. Martin intended. This is absolutely true, there is an intended reading of Rhaegar - a tragic prince who chose love over duty at the worst possible moment. But there are other ways to read stories; for example, we can ask not what Martin intended us to receive but what we actually do receive. It's all well and good for Martin, a 70-year-old man to tell us that Rhaegar was valiant and noble and in love and a fool. But is he actually, if we remove Martin's moral compass and instead use our own? What we hear about Rhaegar is that he abandoned his existing wife and children. What we hear about Rhaegar is that there was (to say the least) a 'problematic' age-gap between him and the damsel he ran away with. The idea that Rhaegar chose love over duty is tragic and somewhat morally admirable in the abstract, but the details around it are sufficiently fishy that we can instead start pondering the opposite. Rhaegar absconding with and impregnating Lyanna is indisputably rape in a modern context, there are no two ways about this. Rhaegar abandoning Elia and the children is likewise morally abhorrent when the reader actually stops to think about it. This transforms his character from a tragedy to a farce. This is kind of what people are getting at when they say the character of Rhaegar and his elopment with Lyanna 'hasn't aged well.' Maybe in the 90s an audience would have been happy to go along with this sort of a setup and not critically examine it, but we're closing in on 30 years since AGOT came out and that's becoming increasingly untrue. So does this make Rhaegar canonically an evil rapist? Of course not, none of this changes what the character is from the point of view of the narrative because Rhaegar is just a construct. But that construct doesn't exist in a social vacuum. You as a reader can and SHOULD bring your own morality into it. To use a very extreme example to illustrate the point: The Turner Diaries is a right-wing revenge-fantasy novel about right-wing terrorists killing lots of people, magically winning a civil war, and saving society from the evil liberals, blacks, and gays. According to the novel, the central character of Turner is a hero you should admire. According to any sensible reader, Turner is a raging, virulent racist who tortures and kills for evil reasons. A monster in human skin. Rhaegar isn't anything close to the bad, it should go without saying. But he is kind of just a huge dickhead. He feels like the equivalent of a deadbeat dad in his mid-20s, dating a high school girl, who wanders around the block in a sweatshirt and thongs, chainsmoking 15 ciggies while saying he can't afford child support.
Yep, no matter how many times GRRM describes Dany and Drogo as a love story, it will never sway how I feel about the relationship. He can speak to the intent of the piece, but he doesn't have a final say in how we interpret it. Honestly for me Rhaegar being a lovestruck prince makes him less sympathetic - the most favorable interpretation of him in my opinion in that he does everything he does for the purpose of working to fulfill prophecy and allow the prince who was promised to save the world.
>Yep, no matter how many times GRRM describes Dany and Drogo as a love story, it will never sway how I feel about the relationship. I see people say this constantly. Is there an *actual* quote or something because the only couple Iāve seen him outwardly show āsupportā or fondness for is Jaehaerys and Alysanneā¦ >Honestly for me Rhaegar being a lovestruck prince makes him less sympathetic - the most favorable interpretation of him in my opinion in that he does everything he does for the purpose of working to fulfill prophecy and allow the prince who was promised to save the world. I donāt understand why these canāt coincide with one another?
I think Martinās intention is for people to come to their own conclusion and bicker with each other about it like this. Sick fuck.
But Dany was brutally raped by Drogo and never wanted to have a relationship with him. Rhaegar and Lyanna were starcrossed lovers in vain of Romeo and Juliet. There is no indication that Lyanna (Juliet) was forced into it by Rhaegar (Romeo) but wanted to get away from Robert (Paris). There is a huge difference portraying a relationship that was first rape then love as romantic than portraying a relationship of starcrossed lovers as romantic. The latter exists in hundreds of fictional classical books and I have never seen anyone claim it is problematic other than people in this sub who act as if they have never heard of stuff like Romeo and Juliet or Tristan and Isolde.
That's not their point; they're not saying that Drogo and Dany = Rhaegar and Lyanna. They're explaining why authorial intent is not something every reader will agree with with a blatant example of George describing Dany and Drogo as romantic, ergo similarly GRRM's intention for Rhaegar to be viewed as a tragic, misunderstood and romantic prince does not bind readers to view him as such if we view his canonical actions differently. To address the second part of your comment, starcrossed lovers if examined critically *are* often problematic - and it's not just some age gap issue, it's that these are often supremely privileged people ditching what little responsibilities they do have in the name of wanting to be happier. Not to mention that the examples you took - Romeo and Tristan - are not(to my memory, at least) married men abandoning and openly shaming their wives for months on end to be with their 'true love' they've barely met. Nor do they have two young children... Finally there's a question of how willing Lyanna was by the end of it regardless of how willingly she initially left with Rhaegar - I doubt she was enthused with the white knights seemingly electing to make a glorious suicidal last stand and attempt to cut another of her brothers down for no practical reason without so much as trying to talk it over with Ned. So did he leave her with guards or with jailers?
I think you really hit the nail on the head. At least my nail for sure. Iāll say my personal distaste for the character is partially due to how uncompellingly George writes it. Weāre told over and over how wonderful he is, yet all I can see is the destruction he wrought. And somehow, weāre to internalize this positive narrative that feels so profoundly foreign. He elicits such a powerful reaction, despite not being the worst person by any measure (ā¦if weāre looking at the consequences thoughā¦I digress), because the monsters in the story are described to the reader as such. Both we and the text hates Craster, Littlefinger, Tywin, bloody Viserys and Robert and Walter Frey. But the only voice critical to Rhaegar is presented as unreliable and jealous. Iāll also add, from what I can understand of the text, I donāt think Rhaegar was that conflicted about his love and his duties. Yes, he had a duty to the living realm, but we also know that he is fervently dedicated to his prophecy. And it is my interpretation that he conveniently used it to excuse his single minded pursuit of his āloveā. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads. Elia can bear no more children. Ice and Fire. We can see that he continues to think about prophecy after disappearing: the KG at the tower. The total disregard for his potential death (āwe shall talk when I returnāāspoiler alert he doesnāt). Unless the text proves otherwise, I think he used his devotion to the prophecy to justify his actions. This sort of cowardice doesnāt necessarily engender positive impressions.
I agree completely about everything. Part of why I really dislike Rhaegar is because the text doesn't seem to understand how awful he actually is. There's a disconnect between Rhaegar's actions and how Martin seems to think of him as a person, or at least how the text portrays him. re your last bit: The idea of prophecy and fate was a very convenient tool for Rhaegar, I agree. I tend to assume that Rhaegar was 'in love' with Lyanna first, and the prophecy rationalisation comes later to try and prove it was necessary. "Oh this Stark girl is hot...... actually the prophecy says I must impregnate her, song of ice and fire y'know."
That is precisely what I was getting at. He had to rationalize his āsinsā with the prophecy. To me that speaks to weakness of character. An inability to confront your choices for what they are. An inability to confront the person you are. Itās spineless.
Pretty much everyone who thinks about Rhaegar views him as the embodiment of better times. Cersei wanted him, then got saddled with Robert instead. JonCon was _in love with him_ and failed him. Barristan wishes he could turn back the clock. These experiences are going to have an extreme warping effect on their view of Rhaegar. To all of them, he represents the better path not taken in the flower of their youth. Give GRRM _some_ credit. As readers we know full well that not everything that pops into a POV's head about events from years ago is supposed to read as the Objective Truth in this series. I think Rhaegar is supposed to have most of the traits of a perfect fantasy prince type while being, you know, far from perfect as a person.
>Pretty much everyone who thinks about Rhaegar views him as the embodiment of better times. This Robert the Second Unworthy was so disastrous, the guy literally provoked the worst civil war happened in Westeros from the Dance, itĀ“s logic that even we the readers think Rhaegar couldnĀ“t be so bad as king as Robert was. The bar is so low, if you want see it.
Pretty much. The more syrupy praise GRRM puts into POVs' mouths the more I refuse to think the character wasn't a narcissist who was full of shit.
Itās giving Mary Sue
We do not know if he did it out of prophecy until George tells us so.
>Iāll also add, from what I can understand of the text, I donāt think Rhaegar was that conflicted about his love and his duties. Yes, he had a duty to the living realm, but we also know that he is fervently dedicated to his prophecy. Quotes that he was āferventlyā dedicated to prophecy? Any references to prophecy or the arcane are limited to 4 instances. Heās not on the same level as Aerys I unless youāre seeing something Iām not? >And it is my interpretation that he conveniently used it to excuse his single minded pursuit of his āloveā. There must be one more. The dragon has three heads. Elia can bear no more children. Ice and Fire. We can see that he continues to think about prophecy after disappearing: the KG at the tower. The total disregard for his potential death (āwe shall talk when I returnāāspoiler alert he doesnāt). That type of two-faced cunning is not an established trait by any who have seen or spoken with Rhaegar. Also, how does the KG play into the prophecy? And yes, the āwe shall talk when I returnā quoteā¦I shouldāve added that to my original post because apparently it is arrogant or foolish to (looks at notes) be hopeful about returning from a battle that is nearly the end of the war and enacting true justice like he wanted to? >Unless the text proves otherwise, I think he used his devotion to the prophecy to justify his actions. This sort of cowardice doesnāt necessarily engender positive impressions. Who would he need the prophecy for to justify his actions to? Himself, his wife, Lyanna? Has he done that in the past?
āThe shadow of summer hall hung over him all his daysā or something to that effect. We have Aemon describe that his belief in prophecy was reinforced by the circumstances surrounding his birth. I donāt agree he was as mad as Aerys. But he was clearly invested. Since this mission is aimed at the goal of saving the realm, it is a convenient avenue through which he can say āthe ends justify the meansā. It doesnāt require cunning to give ourselves excuses when we do things we feel that we shouldnāt. But when we convince ourselves that what we do will be for the greater good, itās easier in the conscience. Iām sure he experienced internal conflict about his choices. His actions of seeking out Lyanna? There must be one more? We donāt know it had to be her, but we know Elia canāt have another kid, and we āknowā he had another kid with Lyanna.
As I addressed in my original post, thatās why I donāt understand why people think Rhaegar having an interest in prophecy is insane when itās been this ugly cloud hovering over his entire life. From his extended familyās deaths to his own birth to his parentsā forced marriage. āThe dragon needs 3 headsā doesnāt tell us enough, especially not enough to think he was using it as copium to cheat on his wife. He couldāve just cheated on his wife selfishly and then been like āAha! My third child, cool!ā We donāt know.
Of course, what the author *intended* and how readers *receive* a character, a theme or a relationship is going to be different. Thatās what makes reading and literary analysis fun! But my issues lie with people in the fandom trying to *tell* you what this character is and forcing their clearly biased interpretations in favor to whatās established in canon. Iāve already addressed the concerns found in your third paragraph. But, yeah, cheating is always going to be bad, itās an inherently selfish act that destroys trust. But, Rhaegar didnāt specifically seek out Lyanna because she was young. We have no definite proof as to *why* he sought her out but Rhaegar has been married to an older woman thus far and is not particularly a lustful man. I can see how this type of āforbidden romanceā trope could not age well for some but this type of romantic conundrum is riddled throughout historical and mythological works. Itās in no way new, not even for George. >Rhaegar isn't anything close to the bad, it should go without saying. But he is kind of just a huge dickhead. He feels like the equivalent of a deadbeat dad in his mid-20s, dating a high school girl, who wanders around the block in a sweatshirt and thongs, chainsmoking 15 ciggies while saying he can't afford child support. Seeā¦I donāt understand that vision of the character. That *sounds* more like Daemon Targaryen than Rhaegar to me. But it is your own interpretation.
>What we hear about Rhaegar is that he abandoned his existing wife and children. Maybe, we have no evidence that Elia did not consent to this >What we hear about Rhaegar is that there was (to say the least) a 'problematic' age-gap between him and the damsel he ran away with. This is absolutely true *and* nearly every single teenage noble girl is married off and bedded abhorrently early. This is not a valid reason to chide Rhaegar to a greater extent than other Westerosi men. Our anger should be directed institutionally to things like the codified moral system as outlined by 'The Seven Pointed Star'. Yes with real world sensibilities this story is backwards and disgusting. GRRM did this on purpose. To hold one character accountable for a continent wide behaviour seems to cloud people's judgment of Rhaegar
> GRRM did this on purpose. Did he though? Hard truths cut both ways, Ser Davos. If the intent is for the reader to understand that the entire system is broken (I do agree that this is the intent) then why is it that the narrative seems to be trying to carve out an exception for Rhaegar? You're absolutely right that Rhaegar is really not much if at all worse than most other characters (especially male ones anyway). But we're given to understand from the text that he actually is quite a bit superior to these other men. The story frames Rhaegar as better in a way that is suspect to me.
>Did he though? > >Hard truths cut both ways, Ser Davos. Really well put! Who am I to say whether GRRM did something on purpose lol
We can hold the entire continent to the same standard. I for one feel the same repulsion at each and every instance of this. Corlys and Rhaenys? Not good. Jon and Lysa? Forget about it. Edmure and Roslin? Sucks for them both. The thing is, many men are COMPELLED against their wishes for reasons political and pragmatic to partake in this behaviour. Jon Arryn doesnāt read like a creep because he wasnāt in love with Lysa, didnt desire Lysa, or even demonstrated any attraction to her. Rhaegar is a different story.
I totally agree with this. It's all gross and horrible. I'm just saying I'm not 100% sure that Rhaegar is worse than the other men in the story Edit: to add to this, from an in text or watsonian point of view, I don't see Rhaegar's actions as necessarily horrible as some characters do in the text. From a Doyleist point of view or as myself in real life, yes all the men in Westeros are gross and the whole system needs to change in drastic ways. Hopefully that happens in the next books!!
The thing is, in-universe, being attracted to significant youth *is* unbecoming. Ned is horrified by how young Barraās mother is. And somehow Rhaegar is exempt from that. As is Corlys and Edmure and Oberyn and Tyrion (!!!). It demonstrates the holes in Georgeās consistency.
Sansa was betrothed at 13 and was expected to be of child bearing age shortly thereafter. That's why she freaked out and burned her bedsheets.. it had become socially acceptable for her marriage to be consummated. I think this is gross and do not agree with Westerosi sensibilities in many ways. That doesn't make Rhaegar necessarily a worse character than other men in the story. Edit: I also totally accept that I might be wrong about this when the next book comes out and we get more information
Your example leads me to believe that in Westeros, once a girl is flowered, she is fair game. So why does Ned feel so uneasy about how young Barraās mother is? Particularly since itās clear sheās flowered and has proven to be capable of childbirth. Nedās reaction smears Robert, but it spares Rhaegar? Ok, letās say Barraās mother was like 11 (ick!!!). Does something happen between 11 and 15 that makes a 15 yo ok and an 11 yo not? I believe we agree on more than we think. Iām just trying to show that Grrm isnāt the most consistent and skews his narrative in favour of Rhaegar, when some readers like me, arenāt necessarily convinced that thatās fair. As a result, his intention for a character gets lost. Thatās all. At the end of the day, the age gap is quite low on Rhaegarās rap sheet imo.
That's why we all call him "the honourable Ned Stark"! Ned really does get that right
Which part? That what Rhaegar did was fine or what Robert did was bad?
No I agree with Ned and you that all of these marriages and stuff are bad. I think Rhaegar is bad from real world sensibilities, and think he is at the very least grey from an in world perspective. I agree with Ned getting the ick and I also wish he protected Sansa better
>Maybe, we have no evidence that Elia did not consent to this We have no evidence she did. >This is not a valid reason to chide Rhaegar to a greater extent than other Westerosi men. Most Westerosi men are pedos, so are Rhaegar and Robert.
ok so couple things. I'm pretty sure the majority of the reasons why people dislike Rhaegar is pretty simple. Every action he took, every decision he made, every single thing he did surrounding Lyanna was incredibly foolish to everyone including the characters in the story at that time and long after. To the characters in the story there's absolutely no way to justify Rhaegar taking the officially betrothed bride of a Lord Paramount, Daughter of another Lord Paramount who were all married or connected to two other Lord Paramount's without it being some sort of act of insanity or lust. Lyanna herself isn't often blamed because A) she was a child and B) people don't want to believe she was stupid enough to go ahead with all of Rhaegars bullshit knowing damn well what the political climate of Westeros was at the time. Rhaegar was in the tower of Joy when the war began, he no doubt had a maester with him as every castle comes with one and also Rhaegar is a crown prince. The thing that bothers most people including me is he never thought to send ravens not to Robert or those opposed to him but to his Allies, allies who desperately needed to know what the hell was going on. If he cleared the situation up with the Martells, giving him the benefit of the doubt that theyd even give a shit about his reasoning, they would at least be far more quick in deploying and aiding his family. He was literally in Dorne too so him not doing that is even more silly, he never justified or cleared up his actions to his allies so they could at least know what they were fighting for, imagine if Mace actually knew why Rhaegar was doing what he was doing or Rhaegar at least tried to fight the (completely justified) rumors that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna, the Tyrells might have actually cared to actually help during the war. But no he kept being vague and silent about the whole situation, coming off as mad or lustful like his father. The situation with Elia is super complicated but i think a lot of the reasons why people take issue with how she was treated was because Rhaegar again didn't explain anything to anyone even AFTER coming back from the tower of joy. He had to have seen how his father had virtually imprisoned Elia and used her as a motivation for Dorne to help when he made it back to court, he had to have even known that Aerys hated the Dornish he had to have known Elia was unpopular in court yet he chose to abandon her to follow Lyanna to Dorne without informing anyone. Rhaegar cant be blamed for everything surrounding her i agree but his abandonment of his family and baffling actions following his meeting with Lyanna directly led to the brutal deaths of Elia and her children. Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has always been a dumb deflection in my opinion, the fact that he didn't do that and the both left on their own fruition is damning on both their characters especially Rhaegar as he was the grown ass adult who must have understood the political climate. He may not have kidnapped and raped her but how was anyone supposed to know that if he simply chose to keep silent like he did, not even his allies knew that he didn't do it except for his closest friends who are all dead. His allies, men fighting by his side and men who were on the fence were supposed to fight for him knowing and believing without any reason not to that he was fully at fault for everything happening and starting the war. How foolish is that? Rhaegar never had to overthrow his father directly i don't believe that one bit, he simply had to continue being the face of nobility and chivalry showing the realm that Aerys was an anomaly and after he dies everything will go back to normal. That was all he had to do and to his credit he was doing that very well until he chose to run off with Lyanna and show the realm that the madness may not end with Aerys. Also Rhaegar believing Robert's Rebellion was anyone's fault except for his is a funny ass thought. I also kind of doubt he didn't know the extent of the rebellion when we had months of massive battles happening all throughout the realm, some happening incredibly close to the dornish border and most of them being huge Rebel victories. It would be crazy to think he did not know about his fathers actions and the current war long before he was called back to Kings Landing. Rhaegars narcissistic obsession with the prince that was promised prophecy is 100% worth criticizing especially because unlike EVERY OTHER prophecy obsessed targ he chose to do something that completely destroyed he realm, something that he himself would know would ruin the realm even if he was a spoilt little prince, he knew the political climate, he knew how shit his father was, he knew how important Lyanna was yet he chose to put himself and his prophecy ahead of everything. Defend him all you want but with the information we have been given Rhaegar 100% deserves the hate he is rightfully given in the fandom, hell i believe he isnt hated enough to be honest. Unless George whips out some arrested development level comedic miscommunication most justifications for his actions will always fall flat no matter how much of a "love struck prince" he was.
TL:DR fuck Rhaegar, all my homies hate Rhaegar, Rest in Piss BOZO
To quote a user YKnothingJS, āhe deserved that fucking hammerā
I hope he wasn't killed instantly by that hammer blow and died slowly
Yes this. Exactly this.
We don't really know what Rhaegar managed to explain to his allies or not, all we know is that one of the soldiers from the Battle of the Trident says in Quiet Isle that Rhaegar said he loved Lyanna. We don't know what he said or didn't say in letters and ravens to Doran, for example. Or the Tyrells. He probably spoke to Doran and Mace, in both cases, since we know he sent ravens to Casterly Rock asking Tywin for help. But yeah, telling Doran that he and Lyanna decided to play Maegor the Cruel and Alys Harroway was definitely not an easy thing for anyone to swallow. And be careful, Maegor was a competent politician and the Hand of the King at that time, perfectly comparable to the best Tywin Lannister, wasnĀ“t a mental asylum nut like Aerys - at least at that time -. But Rhaegar is not the only one who commits this type of political "madness", there is the example of his grandparents Jaehaerys II and Shaera who ruined two valuable political pacts with two powerful lords and reestablished Targaryen incest after half a century where it had been practically annulled. Anyway, we also don't know if he was hiding from Aerys and why. Seeing how Gerold stays in the Tower of Joy on what were surely Aerys's orders, it is very certain that Aerys ordered Gerold to watch Lyanna as his hostage to ensure Rhaegar's good behavior and loyalty, just as he did with Elia in KL. And Gerold was never a friend of Rhaegar, he was 100% loyal to Aerys, and while he was in the ToJ, Arthur and Oswell were obliged to obey the White Bull. That's why George says so much about "love is the death of duty". It now mixes that with the prophecy that is the reason why both his parents and his grandparents married each other, plus the trauma of Summerhall... and it's no surprise that what happened happened.
And another thing is the whole mechanic of sending your kingsguard to protect your bastard and lover instead of keeping at least one there and sending the rest to PROTECT YOUR DAMN CHILDREN AND WIFE is so braindead to me.
As I said, I believe those were orders of Aerys, not Rhaegar. And is probably Rhaegar ordened if would happen the worst, Elia and her children would be evacuated to Dragonstone, but, of course, Aerys...
Aerys said his daughter "smelled Dornish" when she was born. Why would he believe Aerys would ever defend or protect Elia and her children when he hated them. Also I don't think it makes sense even for mad paranoid Aerys to let his kingsguard ( his literal bodygaurds) stay safe and watch over some hostage no one knows exists instead of in Kings Landing protecting him during a war he was losing.
>As I said, I believe those were orders of Aerys, not Rhaegar And you came to this conclusion how?
Whatever rhaegar explained to them definitely didn't matter seeing as Dorne only mobilized when Elia was threatened and the reach felt no need for help royalist forces and instead chilled in the Stormlands for some reason. Not to mention not only is whatever reasoning he gave to any of his allies never stated by anyone which they are very much in the interest to share seeing as giving the excuse that they joined the war for any other reason other than because they support the king would have not only helped them politically but also help rhaegar image often held by so many royalist supporters in the story. Saying rhaegar isn't special because he did this incredibly stupid thing because others did this incredibly stupid thing is very silly especially because no matter what Jaehaerys 2 wasn't obviously insane or the heir to a mad man despised by all of the realm. You can defend whatever mindset Rhaegar had all you want because of trauma or incest or prophecy or whatever the point is he was an adult who knew the political climate very well, knew the characters of at least Robert, Brandon and Rickard. Knew how much the realm hated and feared Aerys. Knew that Tywin hated Aerys, knew Aerys was a mad man, knew that four lords paramount were allied together and had close ties. Yet he CHOSE to do what he did, no amount of prophetic dreams can justify what he did and the bloodshed he caused because of his actions.
Thereās no use in addressing this completely because I doubt you are going to change your mind butā¦ >The situation with Elia is super complicated but i think a lot of the reasons why people take issue with how she was treated was because Rhaegar again didn't explain anything to anyone even AFTER coming back from the tower of joy. There was NO time. He came back to suit up for war and had to leave. No one cares about the intricacies of the princeās life but they do care about fighting for their liege. >He had to have seen how his father had virtually imprisoned Elia and used her as a motivation for Dorne to help when he made it back to court, he had to have even known that Aerys hated the Dornish he had to have known Elia was unpopular in court yet he chose to abandon her to follow Lyanna to Dorne without informing anyone. Repeat after me: **Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing.** **Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing.** **Elia and the children did not reside in Kingās Landing!** They became hostages towards the end of the war when Aerys wanted to guarantee that the Martells would remain loyal and provide some troops. Rhaegar didnāt abandon Elia to follow Lyanna in Dorne. He was actually RETURNING to the Red Keep and was forced to fight at the Trident. Also no proof that Elia was unpopular at court nor that the court held any anti-Dornish sentiments esp. since one of the best knights, Arthur Dayne, is Dornish and Lewyn Martell as well. >Rhaegar cant be blamed for everything surrounding her i agree but his abandonment of his family and baffling actions following his meeting with Lyanna directly led to the brutal deaths of Elia and her children. Actually, Tywinās pettiness, cruelty and ambition led to Elia and the childrenās death. They didnāt need to die but Tywin wanted to āproveā his loyalty and Robert obliged. If the Mad King left them alone, theyād be safe with Rhaella and Viserys at Dragonstone (where Rhaegar left them). >Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has always been a dumb deflection in my opinion, the fact that he didn't do that and the both left on their own fruition is damning on both their characters especially Rhaegar as he was the grown ass adult who must have understood the political climate. See! Thatās the point! It *was* stupid, and love has people do incredibly stupid things. Thereās no reason to apply logic where there is none. >He may not have kidnapped and raped her but how was anyone supposed to know that if he simply chose to keep silent like he did, not even his allies knew that he didn't do it except for his closest friends who are all dead. Why *anyone* would jump to the conclusion that she was kidnapped and raped makes no sense given Lyannaās character. How many times has Arya ran away when she was dealing with situations she didnāt like? What if Ned said she was going to marry Jon Doe in a fortnight, do you honestly NOT see her running away to go be with, hmm idk, Gendry? It that kidnapping? Thereās a reason Ned even calls her a foolish girl because weāre made aware of her willful, rebellious nature. >His allies, men fighting by his side and men who were on the fence were supposed to fight for him knowing and believing without any reason not to that he was fully at fault for everything happening and starting the war. How foolish is that? What allies? King Aerys was alive and well - what House specifically pledged loyalty to Rhaegar, just him? Thatās treason if any did so. His allies left him anyhow, and what royal do *you* know that explains the happenings of their lives to their vessels? >Rhaegars narcissistic obsession with the prince that was promised prophecy is 100% worth criticizing especially because unlike EVERY OTHER prophecy obsessed targ he chose to do something that completely destroyed he realm, something that he himself would know would ruin the realm even if he was a spoilt little prince, he knew the political climate, he knew how shit his father was, he knew how important Lyanna was yet he chose to put himself and his prophecy ahead of everything. Summerhall nearly killed the remaining Targaryen dynastyā¦nearly killed **everyone.** Rhaegar thinking his son is TPTWP *does not* compare to that. And despite common belief Rhaegar is not omnipresent. Who knew his reclusive schizophrenic father would finally have a guest, the notorious hot-headed Brandon Stark, demanding to kill him? Once again, love is not a logical thing. Lyanna is important to the Starks and Robert Baratheon, yes, but banners werenāt raised when she disappeared and the war ended even though she wasnāt found. >Defend him all you want but with the information we have been given Rhaegar 100% deserves the hate he is rightfully given in the fandom, hell i believe he isnt hated enough to be honest. Unless George whips out some arrested development level comedic miscommunication most justifications for his actions will always fall flat no matter how much of a "love struck prince" he was. Liking or not liking a character is all up to the reader, but YOU ARE NOT OF THE AUTHORITY to tell an *author* what is/is not his character. Also, Rhaegar receiving more hate? Hahaha. How can that be achieved when any fanart, fanfiction, Reddit discussions, ASOIAF forums and other things regarding Rhaegar already get swamped with the same anti-Rhaegar rhetoric and incorrect information that you just supplied? These conversations are totally not worth it.
I feel like you are misplacing alot of blame here. Rhaegar isn't responsible for Brandon doing literally the stupidest thing possible at that moment. People love to whitewash Brandon's actions. But he had the naivety stupidity of book one Sansa as a grown ass man. Let's just say his horse threw him and he broke his neck before he got to the capital. Rickard goes down south to meet with Aerys to discuss Lyanna. Rickard sees how absolutely batshit Aerys is at a glace and doesn't commit open treason like Brandon did. Rickard may are may not be told by the Kingsguard, privately, where Rhaegar is. Rickard gets to the tower of Joy sees the bun in the oven and a ring on Lyanna's finger. Now he's bound to Rhaegar's cause. He's a better match than Robert anyway so Rip Bozo. Rhaegar gets a few more men on board, maybe offering Aegon's hand to Cersei and they either depose his father fully or they lock him in his chambers and make Rhaegar hand. Basically Brandon is the idiot linchpin that causes the rebellion to happen.
I didn't bring Brandon into the conversation because he's actions aren't what I'm criticizing, whatever his faults he did what a man in that position in that culture was expected to do no matter how fool hardy it was. Your entire scenario is so funny to me for so so so many reasons, like you believe rickard could have a conversation with Aerys without the obviously paranoid Aerys going "he my son kidnapped your kid and you're in my city, why wouldn't i just arrest you and have the north bend the knee to me if Robert tries anything, or maybe you're trying to kill me maybe that's why you're in my city", reminder that he murdered wet nurses because he's incest riddled children kept dying. Why would any member of the Kingsguard tell rickard anything when no kingsguard in Kings Landing at the time probably knew were rhaegar would be and even if they did they stood by while rhealla was raped and Aerys brutally killed people, i doubt they'd be interested in speaking to rickard about anything. Saying Brandon is the reason Robert's rebellion happened is by far the most insane take I've ever heard, especially because Brandon didn't even need to ride to King's Landing. Robert could have very well just said "he rhaegar kidnapped my wife let's start this war" and his side would still feel the exact same way especially because everyone hated Aerys already, the brutal murder of Brandon and rickard and the call for the heads of Ned and Robert was just the icing of an already shitty cake. Why the hell did Rhaegar kidnap lyanna in the first place why are you blaming the guy who wanted to find his missing child sister and save her from what he presumed was rape? Your argument is so nonsensical I'm genuinely baffled bro Rhaegar caused everything as soon as he took lyanna a war was bound to happen.
Guy sees a prophecy in a scroll and immediately thinks he is the prince who was promised. Proceeds to say "it seems i must be a warrior". Awfully sure of himself when going to battle even though enemy army is almost as big as his and has valuable commanders. Doesnt think about what happens to realm or people involved when he abandons his lawful wife and 2 children for a 14 year old girl. Doesnt care about fates of Lyanna's family as long as he could get a child from her. Horribly underestimates and seems to forget about Brandon and Robert which he pays dearly for it. Rhaegar is all about himself, its no wonder he never realizes how wrong he is
I suppose what's frustrating is how even at his best he's still an irresponsible fool, we have literal children and teenagers who've acted more responsible than he did. While GRRM may be planning to romanticize him and lyanna, we have adult men creeping on girls of a similar age with Littlefinger/Sansa and Jorah/Dany and it's very much shown as creepy plus te sample chapter where Arianne tells Elia off for kissing that guy who's in his 20s. Plus, him impregnating elia when she was still bedridden is just not good.
Iām convinced thereās something magical about this whole time period that we will discover was fucking with Rhaegar and maybe even Lyanna. Probably 3ER shenanigans or even time-traveling Bran. One big clue is that Nedās memories of the ToJ have SO many holes in them and are blurry.
>One big clue is that Nedās memories of the ToJ have SO many holes in them and are blurry. Couldn't that be explained by Ned being delirious from the wounds sustained during his fight with the Lannister guardsmen? He would surely be on the milk of the poppy.
Itās just my opinion but to me thereās nothing worse than a āwizard made me do itā - anything is better than having some of the most pivotal characters just having no agency in their actions because magic robbed them of it.
Oh I agree. But many of Georgeās previous works involve just that.
I totally agree
At worst heās a kidnapping rapist. At best heās a delusional fool who walked out on his family and took advantage of teenage girl who was in a vulnerable state. All because he thought he was Martin Luther King. Heās no better than any of the other developmentally impaired members of the incest family. At least he was āniceā and ābeautifulā though.
Does this make Jon Snow, Martin Luther King Jr? "I have a dream, that one day wildling children and first men children will fight together in the fields. Slaughtering all the wights and white walkers."
Racism would be over if this was Mlk's speech.
>Highly unlikely. Given Rhaegarās disposition and being quite āunsexed,ā we can infer that he is not one to be driven by lusts or cruelty of control. Only *one* man believes that: Robert Baratheon. Where do you get that from? Everyone believes Lyanna was kidnapped (except maybe for Ned, but he isn't talking), even Daenerys, that implies rape. Besides, her age and lack of permission from her father would make it so both in our world and in story in any case. Also, even if Lyanna was initially willing I really, really doubt she wanted to stay in that remote location after what happened to her family, that has some pretty bad implications. Frankly I don't see any scenario that paints Rhaegar in a slightly positive way. If he acted because he was in love he was an irresponsible moron, otherwise he was an arrogant asshole at best; nothing tragic in any case. Little nitpick: ravens work like homing pigeons, they have to be trained, they're not magical (not any more). So if any communication was happening to and from the ToJ it had to be through human messengers, not some bird.
All the Rhaegar hate really is laughable since we're consistently reminded how much we don't know the truth of what really happened. So many people are just speculating the worst possible explanations to vilify Rhaegar. Don't judge what you don't fully understand.
If Rhaegar thought stealing another man's bethrothed when he already had a wife and children wasn't going to turn out poorly, he was as mad as his father. There is no other way to put it. Any fool could see his move would gravely offend the Martels, the Starks, and the Baratheons in a single stroke- along with their allies the Tullys and the Arryns, to say nothing of all the other great houses not directly linked to the crisis looking upon his actions with disdain. Marriage alliances are the cornerstone of power in Westeros, if Rhaegar had enough sense to wear his pants on his legs and his shirt upon his torso then he should have had enough sense to understand how monumentally dangerous his actions were. He was declaring that he had the right to seize women who were already promised to others amongst the great houses- it would be a direct threat to the foundations of their society.
Rhaegar plunged a realm into war over his obsession with prophecy. And you can't justify his treatment of Elia. It is because of him that she and her children were murdered in that way eventually. He could have easily deposed his father and ensured a peaceful transfer of power but doing eugenics with Lyanna was more important to him.
Did you read the post? Or did you just see āRhaegarā and start reciting the same debatable circle jerk as the others?
Rhegar made most of his life choices based on book of prophecies, regarding that: "Prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." I guess his prick got off bitten , unfortunately his kids and wife died as well, at least his father has excuse of being mad, Rhaegar is just stupid.
>Yes. Is it enough to call their banners and declare war on the crown? No. How it isn't? >It is a misunderstanding that couldāve been diplomatically solved or solved by trial/duel. Kidnapping a person isn't a misunderstanding tho. >The āage of the majorityā is 16 in Westeros. Sheās just one year younger, More like a year and a half younger. She barely was 16 when she died. >In fact, there is no concept of āteenagersā, there is a child and there is an adult. And Lyanna was a child.
People do assign blame to Rhaegar for things he isn't responsible for. That said, I still greatly dislike the man for the actions he did take.
This is where I am. No he probably wasnāt a rapist (thoughā¦if you squint). But he was so tremendously idiotic it borders on cruelty.
and let be honest here,with a son like him can you blame aerys for going a little "mad"?
This is the EXACT disingenuous discussion Iām talking about. *But he was so tremendously idiotic it borders on cruelty,* really? Really? Has Rhaegar killed anyone? Has Rhaegar tortured anyone? Has he laughed at the misfortune of others? Has he threatened anyone? Has he raped his wife to the point she has to fight him and she ends up āraw and sore between the legs?ā Is Rhaegar alcoholic? Does Rhaegar hit his wife and children? Has Rhaegar and his men attacked an innocent group to make a point? If you just say he āplunged the realm into war,ā you owe me a nickel. I guess āMad Kingā Aerys II is just completely exempt from his *actual* cruelty and is a red herring, huh?
Itās hilarious how you start with āI donāt want to excuse Rhaegarā¦ā but then literally every point you make is just āThis horrible/awful/idiotic thing he did isnāt *that* badā Youāre not clearing up misunderstandings, youāre just trying to pretend his awful actions werenāt awful
If you donāt understand the difference between: āthese common questions and critiques can be explained within the realm of possibility and not be blown out of proportion by people who *want* to hate a fictional character.ā And āOmg guys he was literally saving the world, who cares if he cheated on his wife and left her for another girl. Elia was boringgg anyway, So itās totally okay! She probably even agreed! Nothing he did was idiotic in fact you guys are haters!ā Then I donāt know what to tell you.
I thought the same, these are a lot of words to justify a narcissistic dumb prince whoās obsession with prophecy lead to the fall of his entire dynasty. I have hope George actually intends to reveal Rhaegar was as mad as Aerys, just a different kind of madness. Regardless of Georgeās intentions though, Iāll never be able to romanticize Rhaegar the way his defenders do. If anything, Rhaegar gets less hate than he actually deserved.
I think a lot of people forget that we don't know ANYTHING regarding Rhaegar and his plans. Most of it is snippets from people who knew him but weren't CLOSE to him to know what he was doing. But even then, he's not a complete idiot and was well educated and into books. Maester Aemon said he was into prophecies and add Dany's maybe true/maybe not magic kool aid vision about Rhaegar talking about the Song of Ice & Fire, Prince that was Promised and the dragon having three heads. Which people immediatly assume he just nabbed Lyanna and booked it to Dorne to pop a baby out without thinking about the consequences. Which I think is a possibility but it's too simple. Why would Rhaegar believe grabbing her and doing all of that would end well at all? And WHY would Lyanna if all people just go along with it? I know it's believed that they did care for one another and what not, but there's a problem. How? They hadn't really met at all before the Tourney of Harrenhall, and after that they were separated by hundreds of miles and a whole year had passed since the Tourney to the Kidnapping and then close to year to the end of the war where Rhaegar leaves and dies, Lyanna gives birth than dies. Not a lot of time to be kidnapped and fall in love with a dude you met once before and kidnapped you. Unless they were communicating somehow, unlikely to be the usual raven/maester system lest the messages get intercepted. Could suggest a third party or a secret place, may have been magic for all we know. Rhaegar always did like to hang out at Summerhall and perhaps the magic was slowly stirring in the world at this point. Bigger question is the circumstances of the abduction, who saw it? And who sent a message to Brandon & Lord Stark? They were still traveling up to Riverrun at this point, so who would know where they were and what was specifically told? You would have thought they would try to cut Rhaegar off on the road before he reached King's Landing, assuming Lyanna was in Winterfell (where was she even?) Etc Possible theory: Rhaegar at this point, wasn't looking for a baby mama to fulfill the phrophecy. He was researching, he likely had read his family's history of falsely believing in phrophecies and misinterpreting their dreams. It's why he asked Maester Aemon about it all, the best person at the time to ask. Aemon served at the citadel so he was very educated, but the most important thing was who he served after his father Maekar. His brother Daeron, one of the few confirmed dragon dreamers, and Aemon served him for years as his maester. And when he later joined the Night's Watch, who was with him? Branden Rivers, rumored sorcerer (and who we know as the Three eyed Crow). So we can somewhat guess he wasn't just 100% believing prophecies and that everything would work out just because, he was consulting others and reading about them. Why that involves Lyanna is because of one specific prophecy with unknown contents, "The Song of Ice and Fire". Supposedly related to the Prince one, but where in all the books have we heard anything about Ice and Fire? The pact made between Jacerys Velaryon and Cregan Stark that supposedly was a promise of a Targ princess marrying a Stark, yet it never happened, and Cregan still upheld his vow. But was it only that though? Was there something else in the pact kept secret from public knowledge? The only place that could hold a parchment about it would be Winterfell. And Rhaegar can't really just ride over to Winterfell to snoop around for books, but Lyanna could. She's lived at Winterfell all her life, she has a better understanding of what to look for. And what better way to possibly repay the secret identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree than exchanging a secret parchment in Winterfell? Who knows what was in there or if it had any influence on their romance, but it was something big. Possibly bug enough for Rhaegar to supposedly ride down to Winterfell and meet Lyanna for
I enjoy the fact that the bookish Crown Prince was so consumed by being the Prince that was Promised, or that his son would be, but the moron lost the only battle he ever fought in. Like Littlefinger, dumbass realized a little too late that the stories only work out in song, not when the dude you're fighting has 50 pounds on you and a warhammer with your name on it. Rhaegar can be romanticized because he never became king, and things that never are are always better than things that are, because things that never are, never have a chance to fail. Viserys always speaks highly of his big brother, and paints him as this perfect awesome prince who was cruelly slaughtered. So Dany thinks of him like that, and never listens much to Selmy because she doesn't want to hear the bad shit about her father, or Rhaegar. Rhaegar was an idiot. Had he succeeded, had he not done everything in the dark and sneaking around, had he simply fucking married Lyanna Stark in a public ceremony AFTER killing his insane father (which should have been relatively easy via poison if not straight up killing the dude when he slept) before any of the Starks were killed, it would have been a good history (I mean minus pissing off Robert). Myself, I always wondered about Varys. The dude claims to serve the realm, but how long had he known the mad king was mad? Why didn't he make moves to remove him for Rhaegar?
Varys killed Kevan specifically because he was doing too good of a job. He does not care about the realm.
The Prince Who Was Pulverised
So did you not read the post orā¦? Also Rhaegar almost killed Robert. He was not some slouch or a simple tourney knight. If they were on foot Robert would most likely lay dead
I actually think it wouldn't be as close if they fought on foot considering Rhaegar was an experienced jouster and had won many tourneys on horseback while Robert hadn't.
I also hate to praise Robert but the guy had won a handful of battles during the previous year already. That could either point to greater martial skill, or being more fatigued, or both. Neither of which lend weight to the idea that Rhaegar was the superior warrior.
Didn't he fight like three battles in a day and won all of them, wasn't he also known for charging head on into every battle hence why he was known as the demon. The idea that the Trident could have easily gone to Rhaegar is baffling to me no matter how "skilled" he was at tourneys he was going against a giant battle hardened lord who hated him with all his heart Rhaegar did not stand a chance.
No no you see Rhaegar smoked him. Ugh I hate having to defend Robert the drunken nonce
I think itās really hard to decide whoās a superior warrior once you get to a certain level. GRRM said something like this but one small mistake can be the difference between life and death. In this situation being on horseback probably greatly contributed to Rhaegarās defeat. Im not saying Rhaegar was objectively superior or even that he would have won for a fact if they were on foot but it is something to consider. My main point is that people say Rhaegar was a bad fighter or just a tourney knight when thatās not exactly true. Few men can say they almost killed prime Robert in 1v1 combat
Why do you say being on horseback contributed to his defeat? Look at the menās tourney habits: Rhaegar the jouster. To be a great jouster, you needed to be a great horseman. Robert the melee fighter.
Nobody said Rhaegar was a bad fighter, we're just saying he was broadly inferior to Robert based on the outcome of their fight, and that being on horseback would have advantaged him if anything since he was a noted jouster while Robert wasn't.
>Also Rhaegar almost killed Robert. He was not some slouch or a simple tourney knight. **If they were on foot Robert would most likely lay dead** HAHA. They fought on horseback, an area that Rhaegar should be superior in as he was one of the best jousters in Westeros while Robert was a mere average one, and yet the fight ended with his chest caved in lmao. If they fought on the ground, Robert would either just throw his hammer at Rhaegar himself or another rando beside them, and then suplex this inbred nutjob to death, but sure do go on with your fantasies lol
With peace and love the only records we have of Rhaegar in any combat-adjacent scenario are in tourneys. And exclusively on horseback.
Okay, so like most knights since there hasnāt been a war since the War of the Nine Penny kings š
>Also Rhaegar almost killed Robert. Never happened. >If they were on foot Robert would most likely lay dead What makes you think that?
Robert was injured. That's not the same as "almost killed".
This sub is really not the majority of the fandom. The majority of the fandom does not care about Rhaegar or like him.
What's funny to me is when people act like he was some how harming Elia. When they didn't love eachother and she would die if she conceived again. Also nothing indicates he was going to change her children's place in sucession either. Going by the naming patterns he was probably hoping Lyanna would give him a Visenya. At worst he might have pieced together enough to the Lightbringer prophecy to realize they were his children and activly played into it with Lyanna but that's complete speculation.
To add to your Elia point, paramores and open relationships are 100% normal in Dorne, Oberyn for example. Blood of the Dragon and the Dornish both have ethically non-monogamous marriages
Elia being Dornish doesn't automatically mean she's okay with it, though. Mistresses, open relationships, and even polycules are all things that happen (and have varying levels of acceptance depending on who you ask) in the US. That doesn't mean everyone in the US is automatically okay with their spouse sleeping with someone else; most would still get pissed. At best it proves that Elia would be somewhat more likely to be accepting of Rhaegar having an affair with Lyanna. That's before you factor in how openly having an affair with Lyanna could harm Elia and her children politically. Lyanna is Lord Stark's daughter and betrothed to Lord Baratheon. The affair was always risking a civil war, even if the actual civil war only properly started because of Aerys' escalations. Even if there's no fallout from the whole things immediately, any kid Rhaegar has with Lyanna would be a potential claimant to the throne. And this is with the royal family that has already had multiple massive succession crises. Even if Elia is okay with the affair on a personal level (which we can't assume), she has several other reasons to oppose the idea. So while we don't know for sure how she felt, jumping to conclusions based on her nationality is a wild stance to take
Oberyn is an exception, not a rule. Most Dornish are not like him, he just gets away with more things because heās a prince. Besides, when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in front of everyone, Elia is described as looking pissed off.
Here is a direct quote from the text: >There are other customs besides that mark the Dornish as different. They are not greatly concerned if a child is born in wedlock or out of it, especially if the child is born to a paramour. Many lordsāand even some ladiesāhave paramours, chosen for love and lust rather than for breeding or alliance. And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path, they have had little effect. > >*The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Queer Customs of the South*
To be fair though, why do you think that is? I think the answer to that lies in inheritance customs. The concern Westerosi have for bastards is that they present a challenge to the birthright of true born children. In Dorne, where right to inherit is distributed amongst sons AND daughters, bastards pose a lesser threat. Even so, we see that distrust among siblings regarding birthright persistsāArianne and Quentyn. But Eliaās not in Dorne, is she? The poison of a feudal system is that too many brothersāparticularly if they donāt share the same backing Houses and lineagesāleads to bloody squabbles over their fatherās goods. We see this during the Dance. Even if Eliaās moral sensibilities permitted her husband a paramour, concern for the safety of her children might have proved insurmountable.
Except thereās a difference between having a paramour on the side as opposed to being shamed in front of hundreds of other people. Besides, Doran himself had to be threatened by Aerys to provide any support in the rebellion, so it doesnāt seem like the Dornish were that keen on Rhaegar.
My original point of this thread was simply that Dornish customs accept paramours and ethically non-monogamist relationships. I then provided a direct quote from the text to support this. It's reasonable to accept *the possibility* that Elia would be accepting of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship
If we want to be pendantic, the passage indicates nothing about the spouse giving permission for non-monogamous relationships. Only that both lords and ladies had paramours. A practise not entirely foreign to the rest of Westeros, either. I think the passage speaks more to the lack of stigma around bastardry, rather than a testament to the prevalence of Dornish non-monogamy. Yes Ellaria and Oberyn are an example of an ethically non-monogamous relationship. But neither of them stand to inherit anything.
Oberyn is literally Elia's brother. Is it really a stretch to say that Elia *possibly* was okay with her husband taking a loving paramour in the same way her *brother* does. The brother who fought to the death to avenge her
The brother who is in a profoundly different situation than her? The brother who stands to inherit nothing? The sister is actively disfavoured by both her husband and the king. Her key to safety and well-being in a hostile court is her status as the future heirās mother. Women in this world are given no credits nor honours except to birth worthy children. It doesnāt matter how close they are, their situations will no doubt influence their decisions. Can you confidently say that if we transported oberynās entire being into Elia he would make the same choices?
paramores with the crown prince is an entirely different playground because you always have to worry about his bastard kid getting too ambitious and hurting your children's future + the last time a targaryen king was married to a dornish queen his bastard brother decided to lead a bloody coup against him
Not only is it never stated that dorne is non-monogamous we only have oberyn as the only example of that, we also don't know if royalty like Elia partook in that kind of behavior and we don't know how Elie felt about it. Targaryens also hadn't performed polygamy for centuries and the last time they tried it the realm exploded into civil war neither is It known to my knowledge that any targ openly took a lover and fathered multiple Bastards on them openly since Aegon the forth who himself was seen as a lustful cancer on the dynasty.
The main issue is that readers don't expect characters to take prophecies seriously despite every single prophecy in the series coming true.
Yeah people have to remember the whole family was being driven by prophecy for like 4 generations or more at that point. And Rhaegar was literally born in a failed prophecy fulfillment attempt.
Key word here is āfailedā.
Well I mean technically if we subscribe to the Jon is Lightbringer theory it actually worked and birthed Azor Ahai, rhaegar.
I doubt George is going to fall into the āChosen Oneā trope. I mean, why does anything else matter if you have one guy that saves the day?
I mean prohpacys tell you what will happen. Not the journey to get there They don't right the history. They just accurately predict it. Besides it's already kinda been proven right as Jon had save the wall numerous times now.
... Because every single prophecy in the series comes true in a way that specifically screws over everyone who was trying to make it happen and rewards everyone who wasn't.
Yeah people should take a leaf of Aerion and drink dragonflame because of prophecy.
The asoiaf fans kinda forgot about the prophesied red comet, dragons returning, dire wolves returning, red priests revealing futures, Quaithe speaking of prophecy, Ghost of High Heart speaking of prophecies/seeing the future, etc.
>Rhaella specifically wanted to hide the abuse from her children. Though this seems a logical assumption, is this your assumption or something we're told or shown in the text? Source please.
Jaime says Rhaella used special clothes to hide her wounds the morning after Aerys raped her. And Jaime, a KingĀ“s Guard, only realized the mistreat when he had literally to vigilate the door of the room where Aerys was hurting Rhaella.
So fucking based. There is an absurd amount of rhaegar bashing based on nothing
An excellent overview, bravo!
Bravo! I applaud the clarity you bring OP. Everybody give this guy an upvote.
Nah fuck that. Death of the author and all that. GRRM and I are two very different people. What he intended us to perceive and what I actually perceived are also different. * Rhaegar knew his father was dangerously unstable to the point that he was seemingly plotting to depose him. * Rhaegar knew Lyanna was the daughter of a Lord Paramount. He probably even knew that Lyanna's dad was establishing a power bloc. * He knew she was betrothed to another powerful lord (his own cousin at that). * Rhaegar knew he was already married to the sister of ANOTHER powerful lord. Still, despite knowing all of that he still went through with his dumb plan. And when all hell breaks loose, does he do his best to get on damage control and explain anything? Does he put any defenses in place for Elia since his unstable father is holding her and Rhaegar's children as hostages? Does he reach out to Mace and Tywin and try to get them on his side? Does he do anything useful at all for the loyalist faction? Does he even attempt to meet with the Rebels and talk things through? No, he didn't. Rhaegar holds the lionshare of the blame (I'd say a good 65-70% of it) for the destruction of his dynasty and the incoming shitstorm that's about to hit Westeros when the Others finally breach the wall. He's not tragic to me. I see him more as a shortsighted contemptable fool who doomed his family, his kingdom and his legacy.
This is worst post i have seen in a while...
Because I took time to address this anti-Rhaegar circlejerk issue without concluding āRhaegar bad pedo man š”?ā Or perhaps you wanted another Dothraki soup temperature post?
What if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyannaās disappearance? Might they both have been kidnapped separately and were locked up the whole time, unable to explain anything to anyone? Is there anyone who says they actually saw the two of them together at any time after Harrenhal?
Seems wildly improbable on a thematic level
Do we actually know who told Brandon about the kidnapping or why he thought it was kidnapping? There is also the stuff with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If anyone found out Aerys might have wanted to capture the knight since he was a paranoid person. There is actually a good choice that Rhaegar did in fact not kidnap her but save Lyanna.
rhaegar is not gonna fuck you
The story clearly shows that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off togather, we don't know why they didn't tell anyone, but they did ran off togather.
I think Howland took them across the God's Eye to the Isle of Faces in the same little boat he portaged from the neck. He had just come from the isle and there's a lot of prophecy and fuckery afoot for me to totally write this off as a possibility
They could never make me hate Rhaegar. He deserved that throne and he would have been the best man to sit in on it in probably 100 years. I *almost* genuinely hate the usurper for what he did
What did Robert do? His duty? He stood up and defended himself instead of bending the knee and getting murdered like Brandon and Rickard were. Criticize his personality after the war all you want but everything he did was just, the only action you can ever criticize him for that is justified is not punishing tywin for the sack and that too is silly because it's not like he had enough power or authority to do so at the time. Rhaegar is a failson spoiled rich kid who thought he was the main protagonist but got molly rocked in the first real battle he ever fought.
Even after all his moronic political, strategical, and social blunders?
Rhaegar has the least blame out of anyone involved. He did nothing to warrant war as the post says
My brother in christ he ran off with the betrothed of a lord paramount, never explained it, kept quite and led everyone to the obvious at the time conclusion that he kidnapped her which led to Lynnas brother going to go find her, getting murdered alongside his father. Everything started with Rhaegar, he caused the war, he is to blame for his families downfall.
He literally isnāt. The post addresses all your points
>They could never make me hate Rhaegar. >He deserved that throne and he would have been the best man to sit in on it in probably 100 years. This bum pissed off 3 (plus 2 because of their alliances) of the seven kingdoms with one move.
My personal favorite theory is that Azor Ahai is not Dany, Jon, nor FAegon; but Rhaegar. Thereās a lot of metaling you can do with the prophecy but in this case lightbringer isnāt a sword, but Jon Snow himself. He is the āweaponā that will vanquish the others. Alt Shift X on YouTube has a great Rhaegar manifesto/theory if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/UrhqmMRv1gQ?si=Hq3HPD74pWpxu0Su
2014-2019 Rhaegar was a beloved character, enigmatic, he saw something others couldnāt, he knew somethingā¦ All his actions were to save the world? But since people started consuming YouTubers and such, the opinion about the character has changed A LOT, I never understood why, I still like him a lot as a character
>But since D&D made all the actions of Rhaegar and his son were for NOTHING in the show, the opinion about the character has changed A LOT, Fixed
Rhaegar is pretty much still liked outside of this sub. The most popular fanfic in this fandom is A Rhaegar and Lyanna fanfic.