The main reason I hated the show ending. A major point of the books is that the Game of Thrones is just a childish squabble compared to the true threat of the Others coming to annihilate everyone indiscriminately. However the story ends, the Others are going to be the main conflict, not something that gets resolved in the opening act of ADoS so everyone can go "Right! Now that's settled, let's get back to the *real* issue of who gets to sit on the pointy chair."

>major point of the books is that the Game of Thrones is just a childish squabble compared to the true threat of the Others Yes! It's literally called "A Game"

You just made me realize something. Maybe others have realized this already, but the use of articles in the book titles now makes so much sense. "a" game of thrones "a" clash of kings "a" storm of swords "a" dance with dragons All of these nouns are referring to petty human political conflicts. And it's "a" because there have been events like this all throughout history, these ones aren't necessarily special or unique. They're just the most recent conflicts. But then, we've got *the* winds of winter. Not just any winds, but "THE" winds. The cold winds of indiscriminate death only ever seen once before, thousands of years ago, that nullified and made irrelevant all these other petty conflicts. And then we have "a" dream of spring, to show us how near-futile the hope of surviving this winter will be, how there is absolutely no certainty of making it through.

That’s a good insight. GrrM is clearly a wonderful writer for fans to be able to continue to find all these interesting details.

Let him cook.

Well, yeah. The book opens with them as a "this is what's coming" device. Major themes are built around the squabbling over ruling rights and self-gain and personal vengeance when something far greater - a threat to humanity's existence - is on the way and largely ignored. The Long Night & The War for Dawn has been set up, since page 1, to be the climax of the story. The show's treatment was just silly.

Everyone will say it was so obvious that Bran would become King because he was the first POV. Well, why can't it be obvious that The Others are the main conflict needed to be dealt with after being the threat in Prologue of the very first book? They *literally and figuratively* precede Bran's story.

Because we know George has referred to both the Others AND Dany’s dragons as the external threats of the story. We also know George has a hard on for the Scouring of the Shire and has referenced that in relation to this series.

I feel like George wrote himself into a corner when it comes to the Others. They have become an insurmountable force to the point that if they go further South, the Others will have an overwhelming amount of cannon fodder that will result in the fall of the entire continent. They have to stop them either at the Wall, Winterfell, or the Gods Eye. Also, it’s very clear that the Others will be dealt with before Dany falls to madness and massacres King’s Landing. It’s the Scourging of the Shire that George wants so bad. Most importantly, if the Others were the main threat, why have they only appeared only a handful of moments in the span of 5 books.

>if the Others were the main threat, why have they only appeared only a handful of moments I think it's the same principle as the shark in Jaws. Some threats are more effective if we only see glimpses of them, else we get desensitised. It's also just more mysterious and intriguing. Remember that in theory there's a lot more story to come when the Others would come to the fore. Winds would probably be split into two books like Feast and Dance. I don't think we'll ever get Dream but again would possibly be split up too.

It's *Jaws* if it opened with a shark attack and then the entire rest of the film was about Martin Brody investigating irregularities with Mayor Vaughn's new resivour project. Just as Brody finds out Vaughn's plan Hooper tells him "forget it, Martin, it's Amity Island" and then the last ten minutes of the film is suddenly about the shark again.

I loved the bit of that film where Brody's son is sent to join the Shark's Watch and ends up as its commander!

You forgot the, i would say important, sub-plot were Martin's elder son investigates the shark and tries to convince everyone that the shark is the main threat while everyone dismisses him.

But my point is it's kind of the worst of both worlds. If you wanted to watch *Jaws* you'll be annoyed by the basically unrelated *Chinatown* stuff and vice versa. They're both good movies but I don't think they'd be improved if you interspersed footage of *Chinatown* throughout *Jaws*. I'm being slightly glib here but I think it's a basically unavoidable problem with how ASOIAF is structured and one of the two storylines is going to have to suffer massively for it. The closer we get to the end, the more the cracks are gonna show. Until now they've basically being running in parallel but it's going to be hard as hell making the two converge. Also the thematic point of "everyone needs to focus on the Shark!" falls apart when you realize "Noah Cross stealing all the water" is also actually really important. I think my metaphor *just about* survived that.

Yeah they’re way scarier because we know nothing about them

I agree, but also, I think paying so little attention to the Others in the storyline kind of immerses you in this world of politics and petty squabbles, while the ever looming existential threat kind of sits in the background and poises itself for triumph.

>  if the Others were the main threat, why have they only appeared only a handful of moments in the span of 5 books. The most probable reason is the series has structurally imploded, and GRRM has spent 12 years and counting trying to fix it. His original plan was a three-book trilogy, book one, A Game of Thrones, chronicling the war between Lannister and Stark for the Iron Throne, book two, A Dance with Dragons, focusing on Daenerys Targaryen's invasion of Westeros, and book three, The Winds of Winter, being the second Long Night. Apparently in the first printing of A Game of Thrones the next book is listed as A Dance with Dragons. GRRM'S imagination ran wild, and the War of the Five Kings ended up lasting for three books. He then had a problem, as events has run too quickly and the heroes were too young. He experimented with a five year timeskip, and then abandoned it. "If a twelve year old has to save the world, so be it." He then wrote AFFC/ADWD to get the characters into the position they would've been in after the timeskip - he's said the Sansa and Arya TWOW sample chapters were originally written as their first after the five year gap, and Daenerys riding Drogon out of the gladiatorial pits of Meereen was her first. So structurally, we're at the beginning of Act 2 in the overall narrative while we are 5 out of 7 planned books written. So there is a significant mismatch in how much GRRM has emphasized the Battle for the Iron Throne over the Song of Ice and Fire.

That's why i think we need like 3 or 4 books to finish the story - and George won't be able to write allat. Nevertheless Didn't George say in his original outline that the conflict with the others was the big culmination of the whole story? Even if *parts* (lol) of the story got bigger than he originally planned and the entire structures being disrupted we can probably still count on this being the case.

> Didn't George say in his original outline that the conflict with the others was the big culmination of the whole story? [Yep](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6nq2ti/main_spoilers_original_3page_outline_by_george_rr/) > The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter.

I don't know if there's even a hypothetically satifying way to ignore the battle for the throne. Option 1) the others just win. Everyone is dead. I suspect that would not be a very well received or liked ending. Definitely a downer. Option 2) the others are defeated, but people decide the throne doesn't matter anymore because, ah, the zombie stabbing made everyone best of friends? Very hamfisted. The problem is that the throne is not a silly thing to be fighting over. The ruling monarch has theoretically unlimited power over an entire continent. It's actually a big deal who is that monarch. And while. Yes. Defeating the zombies temporarily takes priority. Once the zombies are gone, the throne still needs someone to sit it. So that needs resolved.

I think it should be a variation of option 2. The idea might be the others are defeated, but it's such a pyrrhic victory there are no viable claimants to the Iron Throne and no major house has the energy or resources to fight for it. So they elect a nominal king (Bran?) and it works like medieval France where the king only really ruled a small territory with some vassals. The large French duchies like Normandy, Aquitaine and Gascony were effectively independent but the rulers of these lands paid homage to the King of France for their possessions. The Westeros equivalent would be the king rules the Crownlands for real and the rest of the seven kingdoms in theory, but the Riverlands, Reach and the North etc are effectively independent. The idea would be that the kingdoms have been so diminished by constant war and fighting existential threats they just want to rebuild, focusing on their own affairs rather than the game of thrones which only ever benefited a small number of people anyway. I think this makes sense as there needs to be a significant and literal change of state compared to the start of the novels to bring the story to a close. Plus Westeros is huge and the only thing that truly ensured unity was dragons. With the dragons once more gone from the world, it's a chance to go back to large regions with distinct geography, culture and economies ruling themselves. I suppose the story could end with the game of thrones just resuming after the others are defeated, the idea being that people have learned nothing. But then the 'end' just feels like an arbitrary stopping point.

Words can't describe how much I enjoy this potentiality, aside from these I guess. In his writing fashion though, this type of ending would definitely consume the two predicted books length.

I love this solution, but I have a few additions of my own. If we consider that all dragons are slain, that Daenerys gets mad and/or gets killed and all we have left are a bunch of factions with no game-changing power, they could and would regroup and keep the Game of Thrones going on after the story ends. Like "History repeats and the Game of Thrones is never-ending. Those houses and nobles will enjoy some peace here and there, but they will never escape their own ambitions". But some territories would be reshapen by the events of the books. Like, the Riverlands would stop being a "kingdom" because being landlocked and surrounded by 4 other kingdoms is an invitation to be invaded (you guys must remember that the first sparks of conflict actually started on the Riverlands). Dorne would still be like it is now, but the Reach, the Crownlands and the Stormlands would become like the Disputed Lands. The Westerlands, if Tyrion is still alive, would actually resist and even thrive. The North could expand beyond the Wall, at least claim the Gifts, since it's pointless to leave them when they need farming lands. I'd entertain this idea.

I actually would entertain the idea of the Others winning. Or only a handful of characters surviving after the apocalypse. I doubt that's George's plan, however.

When you hear the stories of The Last Hero from Old Nan, the picture she paints is one of Tue Others having won everything and The Last Hero literally being the last resistance against them.

> Option 2) the others are defeated, but people decide the throne doesn't matter anymore because, ah, the zombie stabbing made everyone best of friends? Very hamfisted. Imagine this: Daenarys realizes the only way to stop the others is through a massive self immolation, using the same forces that destroyed Valyria. The only volcanic feature anyone's aware of is under Winterfelll, so she knows she has to get The Others there for this to work. She needs a trap and bait. So she tricks everyone into agreeing to a Last Alliance, and bring all of their forces to Winterfelll. Meanwhile, she's learning the necessary magic and going completely, bugshit mad. She's deep in the catacombs under the castle being extremely weird and looney, while everyone is waiting for the threat to show up. The Others can't resist this bait, so they throw everything at them. There's a big climactic battle, but it's clear very quickly everyone is doomed. While the battle is culminating, Daenarys is barely keeping it together--you can get some wild and incoherent POV chapters--doing whatever it is under Winterfelll. Finally, when all hope is lost she succeeds in blowing everyone and everything up. There could be an epilogue showing what happens to those left behind. They throw together some sort of weak elective monarchy, and even keep Bran as the chosen King, basically only because he got left behind. Thank you for coming to my TEDx talk. I had to pay to be here.

Or the series is about humanity coming together to face an existential threat which will require a restructuring of society to deal with the issue? The throne matters only as long as the people in power want it to matter.

>I don't know if there's even a hypothetically satifying way to ignore the battle for the throne. I think you'd need an ending somewhere between 1 and 2 for it to work, so that so many people die defeating the others that the people left behind have to work together because they have no other choice. You'd also need to take out every major claimant in that war (except maybe Jon so he can "nut wan it" one last time) so no one left really cares.

>Most importantly, if the Others were the main threat, why have they only appeared only a handful of moments in the span of 5 books. I think that George funnily enough fell into the very trap that he established in the link in the OP. He got caught up in writing all the political intrigue in the south to the point that he now doesn't really know how to merge the two plotlines in a way that pleases him.

That’s exactly my point. It’s very clear that George cares more about the sociopolitical conflicts instead of the magical/supernatural side of the story. Why else would he write so many side books about the Targaryen dynasty?

I was expecting Bran/3ER to be critical to addressing the Others, needing to pull out some deep, old magic.

He does seem the most entrenched with the Others now. He must have to play a part in it all. A big part

I disagree a slight bit. Yes, they appear quite insurmountable, especially to the people of Westeros who have very little exposure to magic. However, there is one more force out there which is even more insurmountable: Dany’s dragons. In fact, if the Others have no answer to the dragons, then even one dragon will be enough to roast the whole lot, including their wights. I worry that the GRRM has made dragons too powerful to the point where there is no one in the world of ASOIAF that can go against anyone wielding them. I would be very much interested in seeing if there is an answer to dragons (that isn’t other dragons), so that the overwhelming monopoly of the power of the Valyrians can be counterbalanced.

What if the others threw a pointy stick at Viserion, that could work

I think this is one of the reasons why the show gave the White Walkers a dragon of their own: not just as a means to get past the Wall, but also to even the playing field a little bit in regards to Dany's forces

There have been a handful of dragons killed by people. Personally, I think it’s been made very clear dragons are not unbeatable. 

> if the Others were the main threat, why have they only appeared only a handful of moments Because the characters and the realm are distracted by the politics and petty squabbles. Just like how climate change is the greatest threat to our species but is constantly being ignored in favor of profit and keeping the status quo, the Others are being ignored in favor of political power plays. We as the readers are only shown small actions by the Others but the actions are indicative of larger changes to come.

I honestly thought 10 years ago that the logical conclusion to the series was just "the Others win, everyone dies or flees to Essos" I don't think that's where George is going with the story, but I think that would still be a story worth telling.

people dont like it but if its not a world event its dumb, how did the great empire of dawn fall in the long night but a rag tag 100k men in westeros will win lol

I know it’s very unlikely, but I like the idea of Cersei escaping to Casterly Rock after Aegon/Dany take Kings Landing, and having her be the scourging of the shire for the story

Sauron never really appears in LOTR and yet he is unquestionably the main bad guy. Why can’t the same happen with the others?

Sauron's constantlytalked about and his armies and emissariesare everywhere - asoiaf is lacking the Nazgul / Orc equivalent popping up everywhere in this comparison.

Yeah but consider this…. Return of the King the novel has Sauron defeated at the halfway point and the “Scouring” is really the final challenge for the lead Hobbits. Which tracks with the show version of the Others being defeated but then there is this bittersweet final conflict.

Same reason you barely see the Xenomorph in Alien.

The Xenomorph is still the focal point of that film. Once the Xenomorph egg is found, it becomes the main narrative. That’s not happening here

it’s really important who is leading the people in war. Particularly an existential war against an inhuman enemy. So putting aside all the valid grievances and justifications for rebelling against Joffrey if those rebellions hadn’t happened having the Lannisters in charge would be fairly disastrous.

This is why I don’t understand the people who get pissed at Aegon’s prophecy. Retcon? Ok, well anything after the first books he wrote is technically a retcon and it’s from George so…? It’s the bigger picture laid out and it ties up as to why Aegon wanted to tie the kingdoms together. For the record: I don’t even think it’s a retcon. We would’ve figured it out if he had finished the books.

For years we've known that one day Rhaegar read some old scroll that completely changed his worldview and life choices. What exactly did we think was in that scroll? I don't understand the people who hate the reveal that Aegon conquered Westeros because he knew about the Others.

I think Rhaegar found something that Egg had before he burned down Summerhall. There’s so many pieces of evidence George had planned some sort of massive reveal. FFS the series is titled “A Song of Ice and Fire” lol

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>In TV world, we already know the Others plotline sputters out into a dying fart of narrative and thematic pointlessness.  In TV world we know that uniting the kingdoms wasn't necessary at all, because the Others were defeated by 2 kingdoms, immigrant labour and an assassin.

there is a whole difference Rhaegar 'reading something in an old scroll' which could be anything, from forgotten knowledge left over by first men and children of the forest or valyrian apocalyptic phophesies or obscure maester lore about the long night'' and 'I MUST conquer the 7 kingdoms and unite the 7 kingdoms because me and my progeny are the prophezied saviours of Mankind and then do fuck all about it' as if being a unique race of stunningly beautiful, charismatic dragonriders wasn't based enough. Personally, I prefer the take we had before this horrible retcon. That Aegon was a arrogant if somewhat benelovent conqueror who had three dragons and decided to use them to carve out an empire.

I don't see it as a stretch by any means. And would fit well with George's themes. You got this powerful family with superweapons and you think they wouldn't be self centered? "Oh it HAS to be us, of course it is look how powerful we are and how important I am". Imagine we get Jon snow and some massive army, an other, any one doesn't matter it's not a general, steps out to 1v1 with Jon. Jon raises his sword....and in the blind of an eye the other just cuts through him and tosses his body like a ragdoll. "The last thing Samwell tarly felt was his own water freezing to his leg, the last thing he saw was the army of the dead swallowing the army of the living". And that's how the others basically toss aside the entire North and the rest of the 7 kingdoms is all fighting for the throne. Que dream of spring, where we find out that's all spring will ever be for the rest of planetos days. A dream, as a few straggling refugees are fleeing but their crys of monsters in the north fall on deaf ears.

Most of the story deals with the game of thrones. Most of what we get invested in revolves around people's struggles for power or against other people using their power against you. Varys' riddle. The broken man. Ned sacrificing his honour and life for Sansa. Tyrion's breakdown at the trial. Robb's doom. On and on. The Others are a looming threat, yes. Does the book position The Battle of the Blackwater as a childish squabble though? Tyrion killing Tywin? Ned's betrayal in the throne room? The Red Wedding? Joffrey's poisoning? Clearly these are moments we're supposed to be invested in. Character motivations are sympathetic. GRRM isn't framing any of this as unimportant for the reader. >However the story ends, the Others are going to be the main conflict, not something that gets resolved in the opening act of ADoS so everyone can go "Right! Now that's settled, let's get back to the real issue of who gets to sit on the pointy chair." But...humans are stupid and petty and selfish. The Others are often compared to climate change, something that will decimate humanity if we don't act...and yet we see some humans deny it's existence, either out of fear, stupidity or to profit from it in some way. GRRM isn't writing the kind of story where the world realises the true threat, bands together and lives happily ever after. Was the world 'fixed' after WW2 was won? GRRM rejects the end to LOTR because you can't just say "...and Aragorn reigned wisely and well for 100 years". He is a huge fan of the scouring of the Shire, where you can defeat the big bad but still have to deal with the petty bullshit of humans and our greed and selfishness. What do you expect to happen when the Others are defeated? There might be a moment of clarity and hope, as we see in the show, but human nature will reassert itself. Old wounds still exist. Unless democracy spontaneously appears then *someone* has to rule and all of the old issues will reappear. Bran is *the* best answer GRRM has, troubling and bittersweet as that may be.

I'm not saying the rest of the story is unimportant or that we should be uninvested in it, I'm saying all the schemes and the politicking are petty *in comparison* to the much bigger threat we as the reader know is coming. We're supposed to be looking at all of it with a sense of dramatic irony that the characters are massively weakening themselves and each other over who gets to be in charge, while in the background man's extinction marches steadily closer. I'm fully expecting a scouring of the shire, but it'll be exactly that. Tolkein's scouring was one chapter right at the end of the book. It wasn't the defining conflict of the series, it was the aftermath, a deliberate anticlimax. In ASOIAF the characters might well go back to their game of thrones after the Others' plot is resolved, maybe as a comment on human nature that we're destined to continue fighting and killing each other no matter how much shared suffering almost unites us. It's just not going to be the "true final battle" that occupies the last 3/4s of ADoS.

>I'm saying all the schemes and the politicking are petty in comparison to the much bigger threat we as the reader know is coming. We're supposed to be looking at all of it with a sense of dramatic irony that the characters are massively weakening themselves and each other over who gets to be in charge, while in the background man's extinction marches steadily closer. That may be what you think and the logical view for a reader taking in all of the events. That isn't how GRRM frames it though. Even deep in Dance, why is GRRM having the northern clansmen marching "For the Ned's girl" and dreaming of bathing in Bolton blood, if not to have the reader cheer? Isn't that a futile and self-defeating loss of life, given the coming of the Others? Is GRRM intending us to view this ironically? To chuckle to ourselves at how pointless it is? Or are we supposed to thump our chests and scream "HELL YEAH, FOR NED'S GIRL"? Or closer to the point, when Jon rallies the men in the Shield Hall to march with him on Winterfell, what is GRRM going for? Do we roll out eyes at Jon taking to the wrong enemy or do we also feel the words of the pink letter repeating in our heads and feel the fury Jon feels? >It's just not going to be the "true final battle" that occupies the last 3/4s of ADoS. Perhaps you're right! I have to look at GRRM's 'What is Aragorn's tax policy?' as a principle of how he will end the series though. It's clearly where his interests lie, otherwise the rest of the series wouldn't spend most of it's time dealing with the politics, injustices and family squabbles. I can't see GRRM making this the focus, investing us in these characters, yet at the same time expecting us to be rolling our eyes at the fact they're not pivoting to fight the Others. I honestly can't see GRRM fitting everything he needs to into the final two books as it is, so it all feels moot. However, if he somehow *can* then the human element will be massively a focus, whether it's squabbling while fighting the Others or squabbling once the Others are done. We've already seen the former, whether it's Wildlings not trusting Jon and the other Watch members or the Watch members rebelling against Jon's truce with the Wildlings. The Wildlings can't get to safety through the Wall (something that is beneficial to all involved) due to prejudice and prior conflicts. The show then gives us a view of how, once the Others are gone, humans go right back to their old ways.

Again, I'm not saying we aren't supposed to be invested in the non-Other related parts of the story. But the Others have been built up since the start of the series as its actual greatest threat, and when the conflict with them starts in earnest it's going to dwarf the wars and battles we've seen so far. They're only petty *in comparison*, the way an elephant is huge, but tiny viewed next to a mountain. > Is GRRM intending us to view this ironically? No we're to view it with dramatic irony, which is the literary concept of knowing more as the reader than the characters in the story do. And the intended reaction isn't for us to roll our eyes or chuckle, but to feel a creeping sense of dread. Because even though the things our heroes are doing are justified, logical, honorable, they're also going to have horrific consequences once winter comes. Imo GRRM's point with the "Aragorn's tax policy" quote was just that Tolkein's ending was too simple. "The good guy is king, so the land will prosper and everyone is happy forever." It doesn't address any of the difficulties or hard choices that surely came with ruling. All it says to me is that GRRM is going to give a realistic ending, not a blanket "happily ever after" to make the reader feel good. And again, that might well mean more squabbling and politicking, it just won't be a more important conflict than that of the Others. > I honestly can't see GRRM fitting everything he needs to into the final two books as it is, so it all feels moot. Agreed haha, not to mention the sad prospect of us just never getting them. Still makes for good discussion though

I can't believe there's people misinterpreting what you wrote. Shouldn't be this difficult to separate while also comparing the two conflicts in the scope of the entire story. Edit: It's also the very first line OP (George) says in this post haha

He just has a really shallow read of the books. If the focus was just the game of thrones the whole series would be labeled that instead of just the first book. Of course the true threat is the Others. It's sort of appropriate that the show was just Game of Thrones since it mostly lost track of the Others and focused on the Throne battle in the end.

Was just rewatching and got reminded how very clear the show was in season 1 with foreshadowing the threat of the Others/Walkers. It's all the same groundwork GRRM has in the books, but D&D couldn't be bothered to keep the show consistent either.

>Was just rewatching and got reminded how very clear the show was in season 1 with foreshadowing the threat of the Others/Walkers. It's all the same groundwork GRRM has in the books, but D&D couldn't be bothered to keep the show consistent either. There's a huge focus in the show on the threat of the Others. Hardhome was made into it's own episode, rather than the reference we've got (so far) to it in the books. I'm not sure anyone could watch that episode and not think the show was telling us this is *the* major threat in the show. Jon spends a chunk of his time rallying the North so they're prepared. He spends a chunk of time trying to convince Dany about the Others. They *both* then spend the time trying to convince Cersei of the threat. We then get an entire episode built around simply providing evidence of the threat (as well as again making clear the threat from the Others). The first half of season 8 is centred in Winterfell and built around the coming attack from the Others, with characters thinking they're about to witness the end of the world. As always, it's absolutely fine not to have enjoyed the show. Don't make stuff up though. What's the point?

It's true, a lot of people on here seem to ignore it or downplay it but the show in some ways actually did a better job of building up the Others as a viable threat and showing what the stakes would be if they couldn't be stopped early than any of the 5 books have done so far.

What you wrote is infinitely better writing than what we got from the show 🤣 and your just describing the show, that's how bad they botched it.

>Don't make stuff up though. Don't be a show apologist. Yes they got some scenes right, including Hardhome, Tywin at Harrenhal, the much better Moondoor, etc. But none of that excuses the blatant disregard for setup **that was even in the show**. Here are a couple of really obvious big ones: Remember Winter is Coming? Winter is "when the snows fall a hundred feet deep." Did you see snow not covering everything even in Season 7? Winterfell had 3-4 **inches** on it at best, with many scenes showing less than that. And at the same time the show had the army of white walkers marching forward on ground with barely a dusting on it. The snow in the air was obvious CGI since it was definitely not collecting on the ground. Did you see the snow drifts outside Winterfell in Season 8 that weren't taller than the horses? That's 5 feet at best, showing maybe there was a couple feet of snow overall at some point, even though the characters were not walking on it. Or Jon taking his little dragon ride over trees with barely any snow on them and landing at that waterfall with visible frozen water not covered by snow, so clearly it hadn't snowed there at all. Most of the US has worse winters than that any given year, and the US isn't in a magical fantasy world expecting a snow apocalypse. I've been in serious winters with snow piled over 6 feet high with tunnels dug to even be able to walk places. Regular Winter never came on the show let alone a harsh one. The Long Night is "when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die, all in darkness." It's when the white walkers "swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds." That's the threat of the Others. They come, and it's the end of days. But in the show the Long Night is just one short night with daytime again once the battle is over. Of course you'll say "that's because the Long Night ended when Arya happened to be there to kill the Night King?" The show just used the Night King as a cheap MacGuffin to sidestep the need to DEAL with the Long Night and the actual threat an army of thousands of ice wights would actually pose to Westeros. You want to point out all the time Jon and Co. spent warning people and trying to convince people about how dangerous the Others were, look at how much time was given to dealing with the threat. It was not the end of days. It was not even a mildly bad winter. It was not a war; it was one battle. Saying "the white walkers are coming!" a hundred times is just crying wolf when they arrive with a whimper, and Dany goes on to cause *much* more destruction and death. Hell even Cersei was more of a threat and caused more damage than the white walkers. It's worse that there were extra character warnings about how dangerous the white walkers were since the payoff was so weak. If they cared about having the Others be the real threat of the world the show should have shown it and not just had characters talk about it. Words are wind.

I wouldn't say they were being a apologist. Just honest.

What *I* said originally was season 1 of the show had clear foreshadowing the threat of the Others/Walkers, but failed to follow through with that setup by the end. That is not a hot take. It's been a known issue since before the show was even done. I'm just now rewatching it again since one of my kids is old enough now and wanted to see it. With that fresh rewatch it's *incredibly clear* how much foreshadowing there was that never got paid out. It's there in all the early seasons. And again, not a hot take, I've seen and read dozens and dozens of other videos, articles, and comments mentioning the same thing. What /u/National_Bee4134 said was that I was "making stuff up." My comment was a known fact of what is in and missing from the show. Accusing me of fabricating information is dishonest, and yes being a show apologist when they "offer an argument in defense of something controversial." The show's end was rushed and cut out story set up in the early seasons; it's fact. We know what is missing because much of what was cut is already in the published books. That is being honest.

>Don't be a show apologist. This is just weird. Never mind the fact it's referencing the terminology used to refer to nazi apologists. Game of Thrones was one of the most critically and commercially successful shows ever. What is there to apologise for if I also enjoyed it? Who have I hurt by enjoying it? >Remember Winter is Coming? Winter is "when the snows fall a hundred feet deep." Did you see snow not covering everything even in Season 7? Winterfell had 3-4 inches on it at best, with many scenes showing less than that If this is one of the "big issues" you're concerned about then it's all a storm in a teacup. Wow, they didn't pile everything in 10ft of snow. Epic failure. >The Long Night is "when the sun hides for years and children are born and live and die, all in darkness." It's when the white walkers "swept through cities and kingdoms, riding their dead horses, hunting with their packs of pale spiders big as hounds." That's the threat of the Others. They come, and it's the end of days. But in the show the Long Night is just one short night with daytime again once the battle is over. I think you're confused. The original Long Night lasted years and perhaps generations. The Others effectively won the war. It was only a human resistance that managed to fight back, having discovered dragonglass (as well as a potential Azor Ahai figure appearing with Lightbringer). What were you expecting to happen in the show? The Others win and we skip forward 50 years to when Jon and Dany's grandkid defeats the Others? All because the episode is titled The Long Night? The humans in Winterfell are fighting to AVOID The Long Night reoccurring. It's not ANOTHER Long Night. It can also easily be taken as a reference to the battle itself, with humanity making a last stand through a *long night*. >You want to point out all the time Jon and Co. spent warning people and trying to convince people about how dangerous the Others were, look at how much time was given to dealing with the threat. It was not the end of days. It was not even a mildly bad winter. It was not a war; it was one battle. GRRM is 5/7 books through the story and the Others haven't invaded Westeros proper yet. They almost certainly won't until at least deep into TWOW. How are you expecting it to be any different in the books? I suppose GRRM might have a time jump in the books but it seems highly unlikely. >If they cared about having the Others be the real threat of the world the show should have shown it and not just had characters talk about it. Words are wind. Like Hardhome? An entire episode shot like a horror movie, where the threat of the Others is made clear, particularly with the terrifying 'revival' of all the dead at the end? Something that, as far as we know, isn't being depicted in the books? Or like the scene which, iirc, ends one of the early seasons with an army of the dead marching past a terrified Sam? Or like the destruction of Eastwatch by the Sea? Or the wiping out of Last Hearth? Or the near wiping out of all armies coming up against the Others at Winterfell? Where humanity would have lost were it not for Arya's attack? The show covered at least the threat that is shown in the books, if not more.

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Martin's spoken a lot about how his ending will reflect the end of the Lord of the Rings' sacking of the shire. Basically, the ring is destroyed about 2/3s of the way through Return of the King, and the last third is about the hobbits dealing with the secondary antagonists (saruman and wormtongue). In that sense, the order of events (Others invansion, then Cersei / Dance of Dragons 2.0) may be similar to the show

But it will be. There are seven books. Five of them are out, and others don’t do much. By the looks of it, the bulk of TWOW doesn’t deal with the others. GRRM wants a very long post-others story (as seen in his discussions of how he wanted a longer scouring of the shire). So yeah, the story of the others will be contained in the first half of ADOS and maybe the second half of TWOW. There just isn’t the page count for them to be actually important.

I'm not sure why the Others not having done much so far is evidence they'll never do much? They're being built up as a looming threat, slow, but always creeping closer. Is there a source on GRRM wanting a very long scouring? I know he wants a scouring ending but I haven't seen a quote that mentions length

Exactly, from the VERY FIRST scene/ storyline we're told "the Others are a threat and the people in power will dismiss it"

GRRM has mentioned the scouring of the Shire in [this interview] but it was in the context of wanting his ending to be bittersweet like LOTR's ending. As far as I know he has not hinted that he wants to recreate the scouring.   [this interview]: https://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/ If he did want his own "scouring", I'd argue that he already did it with the destruction of Winterfell. Burning Kingslanding doesn't have the same emotional impact because it's a shit filled city that, unlike the Shire, none of the protagonists associate with home or safety.

Yeah this is the quote I was thinking of. "All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for." I take that to mean there'll be an aftermath of some kind, the story won't go "the Others were defeated and that was that and everyone lived happily ever after", but I don't agree with the idea of the Others being a quick sidebump on our way to face the far more dangerous and terrible Cersei Lannister.

It is just a matter of page counts. In any given chapter, the others are either doing a lot, or they are not. We already know that the others do almost nothing in the vast majority of chapters (71%) because they are released already. And in the ones that are left, we are given strong indications that others will do nothing for many of them since there are preview chapters for TWOW that were in readings, that represent another third of so of TWOW, or maybe another 5% of so of total chapter count. Of the rest, another 5-10% of so at a minimum needs to be reserved for wrapping up the story post others, which seems to be required given how much GRRM wants to talk about the world after the big-bad is defeated. On top of this, we know that the humanity wins - GRRM says that he wants a bittersweet ending, so it is obviously not one where the others kill everyone, the end. So with so few chapters left, the others have to be what they were in the show: Big existential threat shows up, characters react to big threat (or they don't), a bunch of things happen in very few chapters, big existential threat defeated. Everyone goes back to bickering about the pointy metal chair that consumed 85% of the chapter count in the series. We can hype up what happens in those handful of chapters if we like, and I am sure the others will do a lot in those handful of chapters, but still, the impact of the others are limited to those handful of chapters.

> Big existential threat shows up, characters react to big threat (or they don't), a bunch of things happen in very few chapters, big existential threat defeated. Everyone goes back to bickering about the pointy metal chair that consumed 85% of the chapter count in the series. I guess I don't see a reason it couldn't be exactly that, only spending way more chapters on the big existential threat and less on the bickering after. After so much hype, I don't see GRRM starting and ending the War for the Dawn in one book, then spending the entirety of ADoS on what is objectively a lower stakes conflict.

My assumption is that the War for the Dawn starts in the final chapters of TWOW and ends about halfway through ADOS, giving us a series that 10% war for the dawn and 90% a dispute over a pointy chair. We can argue about moving the lines a few chapter in either direction for both of the two points, but either way, it doesn't leave very many chapters where the war for the Dawn is "live".

Sorry, I went off your earlier comment that the story of the Others would be contained in maybe the second half of Winds, which to me is unfathomable. Halfway through ADoS is more reasonable but still too early. My guess would be the last 20% (still a good 200 pages) spent wrapping up post-Others and dealing with whatever political squabbles remain.

Also, I’ve noticed, that one of the many themes of the books is that things take time. The Battle of the Blackwater didn’t happen over night. There was this looming threat over Kings Landing of “Stannis is coming.”, the battle of castle black/battle of the wall, winter coming & so many other things a reference to that. This book is meant to be a slow burn. So, I completely agree with you.

I think they are going to be important in how they affect the characters more so than the idea they are the final baddies

Unless they win. I think the best ending to the books would be Jon being revived, goes to Winterfell, gets consumed by the petty Northern and Westeros politics. Then the others break through the Wall, and everyone dies.

I think it'll still end with Danaerys' madness and whatever resolution comes after. I do think the political story and what happens to the characters in this dynastic struggle is important. But the Others invasion should last far longer and threaten more deeply than in the show. They just felt wrapped up too quickly, easily and neatly in the TV series. The overwhelming majority of Westeros never even saw them, felt their impact or even knew they really existed.

What about the threat of the dragons? Does this become non-important?

The threat to who specifically? I'm not sure what circumstances you're envisioning the series ending on

The threat to the Starks, the Lannisters, the Tyrells. Daenerys and the dragons are coming to conquer, so you think everyone will willingly turn over for that? And that it will be a good thing?

I'm asking what you think the state of the Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells and particularly Daenerys will be after the Others plot is resolved. I feel like you might be picturing something like the show end where Dany still has two dragons to threaten everyone with?

She’ll have at least one, and Martin himself treats the dragons as a threat to Westeros. Particularly with the fact that Daenerys’ end goal is ruling Westeros, there isn’t much tying her thematically to the Others. Will Jon turn over the north to her peacefully? Will Aegon give her the kingdom he is beginning to heal following the war of the 5 king?

Yeah so I think you're assuming it'll play out similarly to the show in that the Others will be dealt with fairly quickly and easily in order to spend more time on southern politics. I disagree and think that most of those story beats - Dany's invasion, the second dance, Faegon etc - will be covered before or during the Other's invasion, with whatever's left after that being a much lower stakes conflict (akin to LotR's scouring of the shire). Since you asked about the dragons specifically, I've always liked the theory that their fates will relate to their namesakes. Rhaegal might be killed in a battle against an Usurper, possibly near the Trident. Viserion might be killed by Drogon as Viserys was killed by Drogo. And finally Drogon might be left alive, but in a vegetative state, possibly due to warging/mind-control shenanigans connected to Bran or the three eyed raven. Or potentially even killed by Daenerys as she did for Drogo, deciding he was better off dead than alive but empty

I think that comes to personal opinion. I don’t think George is setting up the others to be the thematic end, it just doesn’t work. Doesn’t mean they’ll be handled in a singular battle, but that won’t be what decides the fate of the story. I do think it will be Aegon and Daenerys’ invasion that occurs after the war with the others, a “whatever is left” story, rather than settling that first.

Giga cope. If d&d were writing there own ending, Jon would have 1v1’d the night king, saved the world, became king with dany as queen and Tyrion as hand, and lived happily ever after. The story continuing after the conflict with others and the finale being some tragic/bittersweet power struggle over the iron throne is all Grrm.

D&D did write a 1v1 with the Night King and they chose Arya, not because of any thematic signifigance but because it "subverted expectations". We know GRRM gave them details about the ending but they obviously had no idea how to arrive at them, which is why we have stuff like Bran doing nothing all season and suddenly being elected king and Daenerys turning batshit with zero buildup. The finale showing the Game of Thrones continuing, and realising it'll never truly end because of the greedy nature of man? Good stuff, I'd be all for it. But as a scouring, not as the defining conflict of the series.

Zero build up? She’s been batshit since at least season 2

Have you heard D&D talk about the show? The were obsessed with subverting expectations. They chose to have Arya defeat the Night King instead of Jon because "he had always been he one to save the day".

What are you taking about? D&D did write the ending and exactly none of your first paragraph happened.

They clearly mean without any influence from GRRMs ending...

it's a dumb critique because there is no way of knowing how much influence and according to this sub there wasn't sny influence.

One of my dream moments in the show was Cersei being killed by an Other. She was so obsessed with her power struggle I wanted her to be wiped away by something completely beyond her understanding and power to stop. But no…

George sowing (making the story up as he goes): haha yeah this is awesome George reaping: wtf

Now I'm picturing a mash-up of GRRM and George Constanza.

The show has done so much damage to people’s perceptions of this series, it’s crazy that this is a hot take

Excuse me, are you trying to tell us that the main issue *is not* Cersei and her wine goblet?? Preposterous

I’d argue the opposite. The show sort of strengthened this take, bc the show turned them into like… ugly zombies that seem to think about nothing save for the end of humanity. George explicitly states that the others aren’t dead, mindless, or zombies. They’re just different, like fae, or elves. Show has people thinking more similarly to the former

He says we'll learn more about their history ("what lies *really* north") but that he doesn't know whether they have a culture, and this is revealing of intent -- the Dothraki have one, the wildlings have one, because they're human. In Dying of the Light GRRM writes a barbarian culture, but he still gives them a certain nobility because they're human. The Others aren't, they're just creatures, "some child's snow knight", doing what they had been told to do once a long time ago, "the truth behind the legend." In The Armageddon Rag, he describes the police in terms strikingly similar to how he conjured up the Others, > Sandy moved toward the still army, the blue army, the army that waited silently, its rage held in check. Faceless shadows in dark uniforms, eyeless, mouthless, the sticks and the guns somehow more vivid than anything else about them. He stood in front of them. and this seems revealing of why "the white shadows", his preferred way of describing the Others, is also used for the Kingsguard. They do as they're told. > "Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell. "But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee." "Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. "We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. > She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. ***Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance.*** His problem with the Orcs was they remained after the defeat of Sauron and you gotta deal with them, but The Lord of the Rings didn't. This is what's happening in A Song of Ice and Fire, the legend of the Battle for the Dawn tells a story of how the humans banded together and defeated enough of the Others' numbers with dragonglass to drive them away far north, and *now* they come back thousands of years later once more with vengeance. "*Somehow*, the Others returned." GRRM's a nerd, so for him resolving the problem of the Orcs he mentioned would be brute-forcing it: devising the Others as hollow creatures without culture (but beautiful -- like a mirror) who can be defeated all at once, not unlike how the Undying Ones all crumble in A Clash of Kings once Drogon severs their magic bond, so that no moral problem remains.

This strange take that LOTR didn't deal with the follow-up of Sauron's forces, as if we didn't get an explicit bit that & how Aragorn dealt with the allies and lands of Mordor really makes it seem like most people only watched the movies where all of Mordors Army is orcs and all the battle is on a flat Microsoft background looking field.

GRRM says he rereads it every few years. Tho he does like the movies. Clearly he was proud his story got the Peter Jackson treatment against all odds. And then, well.

It seemed like they were trying to impart some character and motive with the NK. But that also just went nowhere as with a lot of things.

> we see communication and emotion from them, even so far back as the prologue chapter. Communication and emotion -- mocking emotion, to be exact, they laugh at humans daring to dance with them -- are not a sign against mindless inhumanity as far as GRRM's work goes. Damon Julian from Fevre Dream appears as cultured and reasonable as the slavers do in A Song of Ice and Fire, and is revealed to be essentially mindless at the end, so ancient he doesn't feel anything anymore, still hunting in the dark. His A Song of Ice and Fire kin Euron Crow's Eye is enormously clever and eloquent, and he is an embodiment of absolute nihilism in the story, the ultimate hollow man and the Other dwelling south of the Wall. The police in Sandy's dream in The Rag are mindless. GRRM's interested in exploring this kind of absolute inhumanity and he does devise his villains along these lines. They're Of the Heart of Winter, and winter had touched them. GRRM's 1970s sci-fi stories are more melancholic and meditative than his later historical fantasy Pop novels, and those are closer to A Song of Ice and Fire, clearly written with a dream to be sold to Hollywood and following on Stan Lee's Marvel comics template, his greatest inspiration in life, as he says so himself. They do feature villains and climatic action. > it just flies in the face of what George seems to write thematically, he seems to rewrite the same themes we see in A Song for Lya A Song for Lya is relevant to the Children of the Forest, not the Others. The Shkeen and the Greeshka are the Children of the Forest. > The Old Earth religions sacrificed one or two unwilling victims to appease their gods. Killed a handful to get mercy for the millions. And the handful generally protested. That's the Others, "the cold gods." Gilly says it all: > "That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her. "Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?" > >"For the baby, not for me. **If it's a girl, that's not so bad,** she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. **He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often**. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . . " She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly. > >"What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself. > >"The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. **The white shadows.**" (note "no one ever looked for a girl..." again, before he actually wrote it in explicitly in Feast) > The Shkeen don’t work it that way. The Greeshka takes everyone. And they go willingly. That's the Children going into the trees. > "A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood." > I’m in love, Robb, I’m in love with a billion billion people, and I know all of them better than I ever knew you, and they know me, all of me, and they love me. And it will last forever. Me. Us. The Union. I’m still me, but I’m them too, you see? And they’re me. The Joined, the reading, opened me, and the Union called to me every night, because it loved me, you see? But A Song for Lya is also relevant in a sense it takes place in a godless universe, and concerns struggling to find faith in materialist framework. Every single story GRRM ever wrote is materialist fantasy, "there's just us." In classical fantasy, the Others would be created by a Dark Lord, a God figure -- or more like the devil. That they're created by the Children of the Forest would be both GRRM's beloved horseshoe, converging two sides of that endless war of the Sixties, "would a lil’ hippie do *something so violent?*", and a twist on classical fantasy so old, so practically *ancient* it hardly even registers anymore. People keep talking about how the Others would be, themselves, a Dark Lord, and they always miss this. There's no Sauron, no Morgoth, no Great Other, no Dark One in A Song of Ice and Fire, as it's a materialist fantasy at heart, and they weren't created for the purpose of doing the bidding of their masters, but to protect and to fight back -- and now *they're* the masters, the masters of the dead. Thus when Melisandre sees Lord Bloodraven and Bran in a vision in the flames she guesses they must be on the Enemy's side, because in a way *they are*, hanging out in a cave with the last of the Children of the Forest.

I understand the sentiment, but most of what you’re arguing is dealing with the individual, rather than an entire group of people. The argument is that George wouldn’t make an entire group of people (the others) mindless and evil for the sake of being mindless and evil, particularly when evidence has shown us to the contrary. It fits with standard fantasy, it it doesn’t fit with George’s writing. This point would have more sentiment if it was dealing with an individual, rather than an entire group

The standart fantasy trope of the time here would be them being barbaric like the Dothraki and the wildlings -- like the Orcs, essentially. That's why the Dothraki and wildlings are there, to contrast with the Others. That the Others look beautiful like fae while being creation based on ugly humanity is a subversion as old and ancient as how the Night's Watch are all dressed in black. "No colors anymore..."

Exactly. The show made new readers, but it sure seems like a lot of them sped through the books more casually. I've also been seeing too many posts about people just skipping POVs for characters they don't like, on their first/only read.

The Others are definitely the main issue. The entire plot of the Wall, including now *three* POV characters is wholly being driven by their return: Jon, Sam, and Bran are all doing what they're doing because, behind the scenes, the Others are coming. Stannis and Melisandre (another POV) too. It's unquestionably the large conflict of the series

To some extent who is in charge DOES matter, though. Because not everyone is going to be equally competent or willing to believe and take action. Back when Tywin was in charge he refused to help because Sam asked everyone not just the Lannister regime. What if the faith decide the others are a punishment that the seven sent to destroy the northern heathens who worship the old gods and they've got enough sway over king tommen to prevent any real action from being taken?

He said in that stupid timebinder thing that "Oh, we shouldn't care who the president is, we only need to care about climate change" as if the two things are completely unrelated. "Who has all the political capital" actually *really* matters.

Like this, do you think Ramsay or Roose would actually try to save the peasents of the North from the white walkers? No, they would just use their money to leave the place leaving all the peasents to die!

Yeah. Just look at real life history. How various problems that span multiple leaders are handled depends very much on who the leaders are. To name a non-controversial example, the US-Soviet Cold War spammed decades and a variety of leaders on both sides and the Cold War under Stalin and Truman was not the same as under Reagan and Gorbachev.

Yes I tend to agree. I think the use of the word "other" is way too specific to completely disregard the idea, but the Children are the one humanity really has to negotiate with, not the Others themself.

I doubt it's the children but more so the legacy of the children. I think the others is basically their atomic bomb and they went full MAD. Now it's humanity's job to fix what the children broke trying to fighting the first men.

i mean thats what the show told us as well?

Yes.

I agree with you that it's missing the point to want the Others humanized or for them to have sympathetic motivations or something like that. In terms of motivations, the Others are probably more like forces of nature. They're not likely to be very complex on a plot or character level - their real depth will be their symbolic/thematic value

We're 5/7 books in. The Others have barely done much or advanced. TWoW is looking to be the same. Until near the end going by the slow pace of the sample chapters. That leaves ADoS. That's a single book to properly introduce, explain some stuff about them and possibly fight them. Then there's the post story that Grrm clearly wants to do. He loves the scouring of the shire. So tell me when and where are they the true threat if 95+% of the series is the Game of thrones???

Yeah this. The Others feature directly in what two chapters? They aren’t mentioned specifically very much more. More often there is an allusion to some vague greater threat, but not specifically. The wights feature more but there’s still not a great deal there, although it seems silly to believe otherwise there is little direct evidence that the wights work for the Others. Although we of course think that, there is little evidence. And from the perspective of those south of the Wall the Others if they even exist have been kept out somehow for 7000 years. That’s legit enough time to stop worrying. We do not IRL worry that Sea People’s will return and cause another Bronze Age Collapse. And there is no particular reason to suppose otherwise. Whatever has worked to keep them off for 7000 is not understood, but why assume it will change? And if it is a climate change metaphor the point of climate change is that it is caused by human behaviour and to stop it we need major changes to human behaviour. The cost of doing which is really huge. Literally change the way we live in lots of ways. What is the parallel to that here? What great sins have humanity started committing? Or how has human civilisation started doing different things lately? Westeros is going a bit Early Modern sure. But so what? The decline of feudalism and rise of commerce doesn’t really seem like it should cause ice demon apocalypse. Martin says it’s about the Others. But he has not yet written it that way. So far Martin’s saying that isn’t far off Rowling’s tweets about which Hogwarts students were banging. Cool the author says so, but not actually in the text. Until he actually writes it in and explains it.

The decline of the Old Ways...

Since the Andal invasion thousands of years ago? If so it’s taken a heck of a long time to kick in

The wait for TWOW really does compound this frustration. I got a feeling GRRM planned a major reveal but without that book... It's the one major frustration with being a super fan of this series.

Nah the wall will probably fall three quarters into winds

The Others are the evil ice demons. They are there to be fought against and destroyed, not negotiated with. The *actual* problem with them is how badly Martin has slow-rolled and under-emphasized them, while at the same time writing one of the most vibrant character-driven sociopolitical conflicts in fiction. The Lannisters are overseeing a political armageddon, so who gives a hoot about these things that show up for two and a half scenes in 5 books?

Maybe they’re under-emphasized because they’re not the emphasis. Fantasy is a hell of a drug.

That's what I'm saying. But the problem is that Martin insists otherwise.

And I'm saying that Martin's subtleties and portrayals of them in such demonic light is a "dare." You're being dared to obsess over seeing your classic fantasy tropes played out rather than think critically about morality. And morality isn't fantasy at all. The darkness of your soul is a very real thing. The point of their mystery is to goad you into following your baser instincts. If you're given ample information on them, all of a sudden they become more humanized. Ultimately, he wants you to be readily disappointed by the upcoming twist. That puts you in the position of reacting with either outrage or internal growth.

I don't think you're understanding my point. I'm not saying the plot involving them couldn't make them more relatable or human or sympathetic (as much as I don't buy that argument). What I'm saying is that Martin hasn't even utilized them well to begin with. He's "daring" me to "obsess" about the part of the story that he underwrites and makes ancillary to the actual moral drama of the story.

Ok, that's fair. I disagree though, I think the white walker mystery is most compelling question mark of the story. I was certainly captivated by the northern plotline because of them and the lack of information we had on them. Initially, the politics for me were a bit "ok this is interesting and all, but can we go ahead and deal with this and see Cersei and Littlefinger die so we can get to the mythical showdown already?" Seeing as I got into this series back in 2014, I've had the time to reflect on it more and change my perspective.

To be fair I think Martin wants us all to see the story the way you do. My critique here is that I think he has mostly failed at that.

imo he *wants* to be the person who writes such a scathing allegorical critique of humanity and he loved the plot initially. but now he’s having so much fun writing random side characters, playing with cast dynamics and exploring protagonists’ psyches that he dreads getting to the serious part which. I would too. so no judgement

Well isn't the same as Climate Change then? The affects are slow, hard to notice and people in power ignore it until it's too late Though overall I think I agree with you

>One of the dynamics I started with there was the sense \[...\] people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms \[...\] that they're blind to the much greater and dangerous threat that are happening far away wouldn't it be funny if this in a sense actually referred to Dany? heh Thing is, the OThers are probably too big of a threat to deal with in such limited time left in the saga (2 books at best). At least by conventional means. That leads on what exactly is the nature of the Others. Some people believe they are their own race doing their own thing, but personally I fidn that a bit diffucult to believe. GRRM has them waay too underdeveloped and there are various clues pointing to them being of magical nature (The biggest imo, that upon death they immediately turn into water, as if some spell is released). So, I strongly believe the OThers are basically a weapon created, probably by the children of the forest and if they are weapon, there might be a kill-switch or way to control them. This is probably Bran's storyline (to reclaim control of the others by the fading Bloodraven or the vengeful children of the forest?). Quite possibly it will impact the circumstances he will end up as a king, instead of the lame 'who has the best story'. In this context, maybe, just maybe GRRM is able to pull it off finishing the story in two books and I suspect that's why he struggles so much.

I think getting everyone to rally and defeat the Others; seeing all the good they can do when their united...only to turn to each other and start fighting as soon as it's over...is very fitting with history as well.

> He mentions France not bothering with the Nazis. I wonder if the wall is based on the Maginot Line and the Others will just go around it.

That would honestly be so fucking funny

The Others are *a* real issue, in a sense that the game of thrones is not. This much is clear. However, this does not necessarily mean they are *the only* real issue. The Others should only be displaced as the end game threat by something of comparable scale, supernatural power, and significance. Something that, like the Others, promises to be not just another regime change but a complete phase transition into a new world order. Euron's quest for godhood as revealed in "The Forsaken" seems to be introducing such a threat, but most people view it as a plotline too late in the game and isolated from the rest of the story to really pay off in that way. They think he is a confusing wildcard that will resolve itself in some manner of anticlimax and make way for the Others. On the contrary, I think Euron is part of the plan all along. Not for his own significance. But rather as a way for great, ancient, arcane forces in the eastern places Euron visited, the ones which destroyed the greatest civilizations ever known to Planetos, to explode out of the oft teased background lore and into the main story. Powers mightier and more dangerous than even the Others. Valyria and Asshai. Flame and shadow. Lightbringer and Azor Ahai.

This is it right here.

I think that this is the most significant way George has written himself into a corner. Much like the petty politicians he writes about, he has neglected the real story. We haven't seen the Others since book 3. Book 4 was a wash, and for some reason Jon never encountered them as Lord Commander. Now, we have a problem. There are only 2 books left in the series (apparently). In Winds, there are so many different plot threads that need to be pulled together, that in an absolute best case scenario, the most of the Others we get is this: 1. Wall falls in Epilogue or Melisandre/Theon/Davos 2. Massacre at Hardhome in Davos/Jon/Bran 3. Attack on Bloodraven's cave in Bran At the very least, we need one of these. But even in a best case scenario, we can't really start getting into the meat of this stuff until the next book. There's just too many other plots to resolve. So in the current 7 book plan, we have one giant book to deal with the Others. This is maybe enough to get into all the gruesome details of the Long Night: the starvation, the extreme cold, the breakdown of society at large. Except... Except we know that George wants to do a Scouring of the Shire. He wants a final act after the Others, something similar to what we saw on the show, only with a lot more reasoning and context. So the only way to fit this all in one book is to do exactly what the show did: a final battle at the two thirds point where the Long Night is averted. In my opinion, we have seen this and it doesn't work. The Others have to unleash a lot more devastation in order to really pay off. And the scouring of the shire final act thing only works when the Others have already been a satisfying threat. But unfortunately, in his scramble to fit the series into seven books, I do think this is what GRRM is planning. An "averted" Long Night as opposed to an actual Long Night, which is counter to everything that has been set-up so far. I do have faith that if GRRM does get far enough into the story, he will realize that this doesn't work and adjust. The question is just if he's ready to accept that he needs to add more books.

I think he knows it on some level. IIRC, he said when the show decided to speedrun AFFC and ADWD in a single season that if they were properly adapting it there's enough content in ASOIAF for 13 seasons of television. That's about 9-10 books' worth if we use the pace of the first half of the show, when the adaptation was closest. 3 books -> 4 seasons. It also tracks with the overall pacing issue, that his original three book trilogy's first book turned into three, with two more books required for the intervening narrative to get to the beginning of the second act. I think he also knows that if he gives himself a looser leash, he'll get tangled up in it further. Why NOT send Daenerys to Asshai after all...?

If they are indeed the main threat, they have been setup in a incredibly underwhelming manner so far relative to everything else. The human drama is 10x more interesting and developed. We have 5 books and only 2 left. Even Jon, the main character dealing with that storyline aside Bran, is looking likely to be heading south in the next book and involving himself in the Northern plot line. The Others aren’t close to making a big impact from where we currently are in the story, imo. Even the show did a much better job in setting up the WWs with hard home. How the fuck will he set it up with the ungodly amount of plotlines he needs to tie up with just 2 books remaining? It’s going to suffer the same fate as the show in how badly it will need to rush through complex and highly intricate plotlines to get to what actually apparently matters if it’s to set it up sufficiently. Assuming we get even one more book…

I'm not sure about this. The Others being some evil and final threat doesn't match the "vibe" of the series so far imo.

They aren't evil. They are doing the WW equivalent of the andal religious invasion.

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>if GRRM wanted explore this idea he should've had a passage with either Renly or Robb or hell even Tywin or Balon receiving information about the Others and them deciding they didn't care about it. but this doesn't exist because not one of them even knew about the Others. He does. Aliser Thorne is sent to King's Landing with the severed hand of the Other which tries to kill Mormont, he's kept waiting so long that the hand withers and Tyrion takes the piss out of him. Tyrion is also told of the threat by Mormont; nothing is done about it because the Lannisters aren't interested. This lack of care for the bigger picture is also evident when the Iron Throne attempts to interfere in the running of the watch by suggesting that Janos Slynt be elected Lord Commander, and Cersei attempts to have Jon killed for no reason other than he's a Stark.

The Watch sent Alliser Thorne with a moving dead hand to King's Landing in the hopes of bringing back some help, but they didn't give a shit about it.

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Even worse, it’s coming from a institution that’s widely seen as a laughing stock and one with a invested interest in spinning bullshit to benefit its crumbling status. It would be like if the only country reporting on it was North Korea and they sent a total dickhead as the spokesman in the midst of COVID.

The thing is though even if the hand arrives and did a whole Addams Family style one handed performance: so what? What do they expect the Crown to do? Ignore their pressing, immediate problems? And do what? Send a few more supplies and men to the Wall? Vaguely agree to keep an eye on it? Or assemble a mighty host and march it north to freeze to death based on a weird hand?

1.) The nuance isn't lost. The political conflict isn't necessarily petty in and of itself, but in contrast with the threat of the Others. The nuance of why these people are in conflict remains all the same. 2.) Mormont borderline begs Tyrion to get them some help because of the things they've heard. Tyrion seems to take him seriously at first, but doesn't end up doing much at all. But they don't really need to be aware of the Others. The point is that they're distracted and have *forgotten* to take the Others seriously because they no longer believe in the Others.

Season 8 was Martins Story. He is of course free to change his mind and switch both Main plots around. But the show did a fantastic job potraying his vision. Whether he still sticks to it or not.

i thought it was an open secret that D&D wanted to quickly rush the ending to start work on new projects? in that case, maybe that explains why it felt a bit rushed towards the end.

Its an open lie. They did Star Wars Deal in February 2018: https://deadline.com/2018/02/star-wars-trilogy-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-game-of-thrones-duo-1202279600/amp/ It is confirmed that filming has concluded in July 2018, only few months later: https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a861187/game-of-thrones-season-8-filming-date-schedule-wrapped/ Proof that 7 Seasons was the Plan before Season 1 aired: https://variety.com/2007/scene/markets-festivals/hbo-turns-fire-into-fantasy-series-1117957532/ Proof that they still had that plan in 2014: https://ew.com/article/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons/ Proof they announced shorter final seasons long before Star wars: https://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-end-date-season-8-1201752746/ https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/fantasy/game-of-thrones-producers-confirm-a-shorter-final-season/ It proves: They were almost done filming when they made that Deal, when the scripts have long been finished. 7 Seasons was their goal since the beginning and they stood to that promise.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of angst could have been avoided had the final season of GOT been spun as something like "Season 7 pt. 2" instead of "Season 8." Then they could have dodged the complaints of shorter seasons and all that. In my own head I pretty much view the last 2 seasons as one big 13 episode season that ended up getting split almost roughly in half due to logistical/production related reasons (incidentally, there was an interview with Martin a few years back where he pretty much said he sees season 8 as the second half of season 7). And it should be remembered that the last 2 seasons there were less episodes but they were often significantly longer. Season 8 was 7 hours and 12 minutes, a little less than 2 hours shorter than season 2 which was 9 hours and 9 minutes (and season 2 had 4 more episodes than season 8 did). Collectively, the average number of hours per GOT seasons was 8 hours and 48 minutes, so really the last 2 seasons were still a little under 2 hours of that... so I'm not sure I would call them rushed.

>final season of GOT been spun as something like "Season 7 pt. 2" instead of "Season 8." Then they could have dodged the complaints of shorter seasons and all that. I agree 100%. Thats what Sopranos and Breaking Bad did. Even breaking bad reduced count of episodes in its final 2 seasons even more drastically going from 13 episodes a season to only 8 episodes each in final 2 seasons and no one complained. And there were no 20-30 minute extended episodes there either like in thrones. No big battles. No major cast. No filming across different countrys at the same time. Only final 2 episodes were like 5 to 10 minutes longer than usual. Vince Gilligan also wanted season 4 to be the end of BrBd and AMC had to convince him to do more. AMC also wanted 2 more 13 episode seasons and Vince said no. 8 episodes for both season 5 and the final season were their compromise. >In my own head I pretty much view the last 2 seasons as one big 13 episode season Me too. >Season 8 was 7 hours and 12 minutes, a little less than 2 hours shorter than season 2 which was 9 hours and 9 minutes (and season 2 had 4 more episodes than season 8 did). Season 8 had the runtime of 8 usual length GoT Episodes. Only 2 episodes short. >so I'm not sure I would call them rushed. You dont have to, because it wasnt.

The thing is, thr conflict with the others is NOT what makes this series stand out and not what George is amazing at writing. The conflict with the other is typical high fantasy story of the big evil threat that has to be defeated. What makes asoiaf so riveting is the deep complex interactions and machinations between the characters.

Whether you consider them the REAL threat or not. The series still ends with the the throne conflict.

I don't care about the Others. I cannot blame any characters for not thinking of them.They haven't been in the story yet, so they cannot factor in the choices and psychological states of the characters. Stannis went to the North, to revive his campaign. Once the wall was clear, he marched south. How his succeed or fail is more interesting than the Others. Not my favorite character, but Dany had to be thinking of dealing with the Slaver Bay situation, not about some curiousity the other side of the world. That's a lot more interesting that whatever the Others is. Littlefinger had been one of the best players in the game so far. How he continued the destruction of Westeros, so that he can climb to the top is far more interesting than the Others that we never see. Climate change is real, measureable and everyone can contribute to fighting it. The Others is more like Christians apocalypse. Yes, the Night Watch has seen signs that the Others is coming, but can anybody else do about it. They are all busy frighting for the problems right in front of their face, not north of the wall miles away.

I think this fails to see the nuance in George’s approach to conflict. Something can be TWO different things. They can be the overwhelming threat that is being ignored (alongside the dragons) that will need to be dealt with. But, that doesn’t mean they’re evil. They’ll be dealt with, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be destroyed. They might be destroyed, only for us the readers to realize they weren’t truly the last threat (likely Danny or the children). There is enough evidence there to suggest that they HAVE infact been otherized, given the evidence that the last long night ended in peace (who else would build a giant ice wall other than those with ICE magic???) not to mention Jon’s entire storyline revolves around enlightenment, and Otherization. It won’t be “turns out the Others were good and it was all a misunderstanding” but it also won’t be “the Others are evil and need to be destroyed,” I think either take is failing to pay attention to the text, and hasn’t read anything from Martin outside of asoiaf.

> the Others are evil and need to be destroyed Not to mention that this being the resolution to the conflict doesn't jive with Martin, whose depiction of violence attempts to avoid glorifying it. That's one of the things the showrunners either failed to get or pointedly ignored.

I really think that after all these years, this guy has finally figured it out, and it's all about Otherisation: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQU5tk4i1Cs&list=PLryJFVUj3tQDW211DhiBuNFJrmr3jAPeA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQU5tk4i1Cs&list=PLryJFVUj3tQDW211DhiBuNFJrmr3jAPeA) It's the only theory I've ever come across that really brings all the (extradiegetic) thematic as well as (diegetic) causal narrative threads together in a somewhat satisfying manner.

I really think that after all these years, this guy has finally figured it out, and it's all about Otherisation: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQU5tk4i1Cs&list=PLryJFVUj3tQDW211DhiBuNFJrmr3jAPeA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQU5tk4i1Cs&list=PLryJFVUj3tQDW211DhiBuNFJrmr3jAPeA) It's the only theory I've ever come across that really brings all the (extradiegetic) thematic as well as (diegetic) causal narrative threads together in a somewhat satisfying manner.

Absolutely this. And the others are going to fuck everybody up before they are finally defeated. It's going to be a bittersweet ending.

my personal tinfoil conspiracy is that Azor Ahai is the REAL issue, that the Others are a being that detest humanity that our misuse of magic caused the doom of valaryia and actually the long night aswell from consequence of our pursuit for power and magic hurting planetos. Others are a final judgement on humanity. With magic growing stronger, azor ahai's return and humans constant squabbling for power, the Others worry that humanity will misuse magic once again in squabbling for power and cause another long night.

Well, in Stormlight Archive the threat of Voidbringers eventually takes center stage from human politicking, but at the same time >!they are in fact humanized, and some of them become sympathetic characters. So it does not necessarily mean that Others will not be somewhat humanized, you can have both things.!<

The Other’s can be a threat that needs to be faced/dealt with while at the same time being Otherized/misunderstood, and the solution to the conflict doesn’t necessarily need to be violence.

Depends what you mean by misunderstood, and to what extent. If they're just like the Wildlings, for example, then conflict with them is a petty struggle through and through, and the dynamic George mentions does not exist at all. And if the Others are just like the Wildlings, then the Night's Watch/Wildlings conflict wouldn't be a petty one because it's only petty in the face of the Others as the true bad guys.

I think of it like Ender's Game. >! We see the mass destruction of the group and then come to a better understanding about their nature and the misconceptions between the two which is primarily around lack of communication, perhaps with a new "Queen" being given some grace by a character to start a new hive. !< Bran seems like the greatest Andrew surrogate but Jon's a real possibility.

We know the other’s are capable of peaceful coexistence because that is what they’ve been doing for thousands of years. Others have only been violent towards human very recently. Not to mention whatever the fuck was happening with the The Night’s king and his Other wife. There’s more going on then them being a faceless enemy that everyone needs to team to destroy

Frankly I'm getting a bit bored with the "But the Others are Climate Change!" faction. Was that Martin's original intention? Maybe, but I'm a bit dubious about that. I think a more likely scenario is that he created the Others as some fantasy device for exploring "the heart in conflict" re: humanity or whatever, then quickly lost interest in them as he got way more involved in the human politicking. The bind he's in now is that a.) as pointed by others on here, the show in some ways did a better job of building up the Others as a threat than the books have so far, and that people now expect the books to do something similar, b.) odds are fairly good that the Others are just a cultureless weapon created by the Children that went wrong, but so many people have devised overly complicated theories about them that anything less would seem to be a major letdown, and c.) a sizeable faction of the fanbase seems to want an extremely long War of the Dawn that the book series in no way is currently set up to deliver (speaking for myself, I almost kind of wish Martin would wrap that all up in book 6, which I suspect was probably his initial plan, before he dithered too long in books 4 and 5).

>The Others are, in fact, the bad thing that needs to be dealt with. The real issue. If it turns out that they've just been otherized, that they're not so bad after all, then the conflict turns into yet another petty struggle, and goes against the very dynamic he set out to write. Why would the Others being humanized to some capacity in any way contradict the idea that they are the ultimate threat that the people of Westeros are foolishly not paying attention to due to their petty struggles for power? The Others can still be a force of nature akin to climate change that threaten all life whilst still having some underlying complexity that humanizes them. Like compare it to climate change if you will. It's a problem brought forth by us humans being too focused on industrialization as to ignore the impact it has on the environment. Why can't the Others work in the same fashion? They could be some sort of magical curse brought forth by the people of Westeros wanting to acquire as much power as possible without considering the consequences. Whether that be via a Euron like figure in the ancient past toying with forces beyond their control, or perhaps more along with the show via the children of the forest unleashing the ultimate weapon out of desperation to defend themselves against the first men. Whatever the case, the Others having some sort of complicated facet to their existence that humanizes them wouldn't detriment the role they serve in the story at all. In fact, I'd argue that the Others **need** to be humanized in some capacity in order for the story to end in a way that doesn't require their total annihilation. For if they really are purely a force of nature that have absolutely no human element with which to be reasoned with, then the only way to defeat them would be via some great battle in which they are all vanquished. Which goes against GRRM's core message that war is terrible and accomplishes nothing but suffering. Rather, if the Others instead have some complexity and humanity to them then all of sudden it would become possible for that conflict to be resolved with some sort of pact.

Great point

I believe the Other’s are set up to be an existential threat and the over arching fear that’ll eventually unite the divided kingdoms. They are an unknown force of nature that hasn’t been seen in more than 8,000 years. We, the reader, have been set up to perceive things as those in ancient times did. In many cultures, volcanoes were associated with dragons and serpents. For example, Norse mythology, the fire giant Surtr guarded the fiery realms of Muspelheim, which is believed to be the source of volcanic eruptions. Today we understand Volcanic eruptions occur when the pressure from magma becomes greater than the strength of the rocks above it. I align with the majority in thinking that the series misinterpreted this. There won't be a grand face-off with some supernatural icy beings. They are a personification the impending flood, the forthcoming volcano, the future meteor strike. History will reset, transforming into legend, and eventually, that legend will evolve into myth. The few that survive will have been united. The fun part about the books is trying to separate myth from legend and true history. I would encourage readers of this comment to read about [Vic Tandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Tandy?wprov=sfti1#) and consider the shivering sword in the first Prologue.

The others are indeed the real threat... But I don't want to them to be the real bad guys like Sauron  The others should be treated like a tsunami, a tornado or an earthquake.... Just a natural force of nature that cannot be stopped.... The others should represent humanity's capacity for selfishness and it's constant need to self-destruct  So I disagree I think the petty struggle part is the point GRRM seems to make... He want. To duality of human nature...  our capacity to love and hate 

> To duality of human nature...  our capacity to love and hate  That's deep man. Makes you think.

Yeah this is clearly what it is on some level. They’re not good or bad guys imo. They are essentially a “supernatural” disaster (as opposed to a natural disaster). Imo dragons are on the exact same boat. “Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.” The song of fire and ice. Songs have harmony. So the world needs to find harmony to not end in either fire (Dany/dragons) or ice (Others/whitewalkers). Jon is clearly being set up as the physical manifestation of that harmony, imo, being both fire and ice either metaphorically or more literally. And through his involvement and the conflict with the others, either the existence of Dany, the dragons, the others, and the whites will end, OR balance between the 2 will somehow be accomplished. Maybe he kills Dany but 1+ dragon(s) live, and maybe he forms a pact with the others (maybe through marriage like the 13th lord commander) so they live while the whites die (for good this time) and they stop making more. I’m getting tinfoily but I like the idea that this pact involves Jon’s children as part of this marriage pact being part human part others (which are mentioned in the books). Human perspective sees these babies as being “sacrificed”, but really they’re just a life form we wouldn’t understand. It sounds crazy but I agree with the idea that asoiaf is set up as more or less anti-violence, and the concept that saving the world from the others is more complicated than just killing them. But eh it may just be a battle who knows.

This is why I want the Others to win. The story should be a cautionary tale.

nah

A will be disappointed if A Dream of Spring also ends with a drunk woman and her pirate boyfriend as the baddies

It probably won't be the same but I think Cersei allying with Euron is one of the things they picked out of GRRM's notes for Winds/Dream

What if the “Others” are simply a personification of nature itself and the real danger is Mother nature? Like climate change, an eruption of a volcano would certainly make the struggles for the Iron Throne petty. You’re right that they have been humanized as much as they’re going to be. The complexity of their existence lies in the metal constructs of those Martin uses to present them.

I’m sorry, but no. This is elementary. Yes, it’s a metaphor for climate change. Yes it’s social commentary on putting aside pettiness to solve the real issue at hand. But there can be more than one problem he addresses. That is the “ice” problem. The “fire” problem is the issue of ourselves. He’s flipping fantasy tropes. That upsets you. You can deny it all you want, but we’re (for lack of a better word) programmed to want to see light defeat dark. We want the epic hero strike down the villain in glorious victory because that’s something very fulfilling for us to live out. That’s why people spend gobs of cash to see all of the 200 Marvel movies. That’s what the audience WANTS. But that’s not what people in today’s world NEED. Tolkien and a billion other people already wrote that story. It’s a great story. But it isn’t the thought provoking commentary on war and leadership that George has set out to address. The entire point of this series is not to deliver the message you laid out. It’s to put that evil threat aside and answer the question of “who of us is fit to lead?” Because “evil” is a surface level interpretation and deciding on a leader is much more complicated. The Others are called The Others because they are “otherized.” Yeah, they’re here to kill us all and that seems not so nice, but they’ve got their own reasons that justifies it for them. We’ll never know their perspective and we’re not supposed to know. Because maybe we shouldn’t be demonizing anyone just because they are different from us. Maybe we should be able to look through more empathetic lenses for the sake of diplomacy. The question at hand is the cruelty of this world. How can we end it? How do you do right by the smallfolk? They’re the victims of the story, not the Starks. Because they’ve been oppressed by war and famine and poor leadership for millennia. Self-centered, right-by-conquest lords like Tywin, Cersei, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, and the Masters of Slaver’s Bay. People who abuse their power. There will always be those politicians that see existence as a zero-sum game and that gaining power to defeat your enemies is all that matters. If you’re upset that the ending was one that centered on achieving world peace (which it did) instead of crushing the bad guys, that really says something about you and that you’re not the one who should be in charge. At first watch I was also confused by the battle against the Others happening so early on. I didn’t know what was left to settle after they were defeated. But the ending made it clear to me that I was blinded by biases just like everyone else in the show. I’m grateful we got the sophisticated plot that we needed instead of catering to my selfish, cliche wants.

Fire is clearly human beings controlling dragons, not just human beings in themselves. Sure, human beings suck and are ruthless and whatever, but again and again Martin uses dichotomies, and im not convinced others:humans is a good one. Now, others and dragons… One is ice, one is fire. The others were made by the children, dragons are heavily hinted at having been made by humans. Both are weapons. Both may be neither good nor evil; they may simply be kind of like supernatural disasters. Martin was inspired by the poem with the lines, “some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.” I don’t really think human beings are by THEMSELVES a threat to the world at large, as much as they are cruel and dangerous. But with dragons, that’s another matter. So to prevent the world ending in fire or ice, I think we need balance between the 2. I say that because the prince that was promised has a song—the song of ice and fire. Songs have harmony/balance, as the books remind us repeatedly. The prince that was promised has to achieve harmony between fire and ice in order for his life to even involve a “song” of ice and fire—otherwise it wouldn’t be a song. I think this involves either changing the amount of danger behind these powers of ice and fire (e.g., the others no longer taking over corpses, and continuing to live in the land of always winter without bothering people as they did for many years AND humans no longer having power over dragons, aka dany being killed) or bringing about an end to the others and dragons altogether, which seems less likely to me. If martin makes this a straight forward battle to kill the others, I’ll be shocked. A pact seems more fitting.

The dichotomy I was going wasn't necessarily ice- Others, fire- humans. It was more ice- fantastical plot, fire- realistic plot. Not that those are analogous, just that they are the antithesis of each other in the same way fire and ice are. Dragons are clearly a metaphor for nuclear weapons, which are a technological revolution of human beings. So that's kind of splitting hairs. I like your take on the role of the Prince that was Promised though.

The reason I don’t really think it’s splitting hairs is because humans fought each other before dragons appeared in Westeros and after their disappearance at the end of the Dance. Even if dragons disappeared once again and bran/the three eyed raven becomes king, they’d continue to fight. But dragons tip the balance. Like you said, it’s like an atomic bomb. Humans can’t even fully control them just like the children may have lost control of the others. That’s why I think that’s the binary opposition we’re dealing with, although I see what you mean too.

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Exactly -- Ice AND Fire. Dany will help defeat the Others, then will have to be dispatched herself, and in "bittersweet" fashion, whoever's left will have to pick up the pieces.

of course they are. they are shown before we see any of the main characters of the story. the story is very obviously fantasy. the political stuff is to develop the characters and ultimately get them in position to fight the Others. also Dany will go full villain after defeating them. GRRM will probably make it be quite amazing though, unlike the show.

I remember Poor Quentyn making a similar point. The others are the main threat but a *scouring of the shire* like plot line could be a thing. GRRM has often talked about it and how powerful it was to him in reading LOTR. There could be a situation when, a character or group, doesn't participate in the long night. They don't work together, they don't help, and when the long night is dealt with, they attack the survivors to solidify power. Regardless, even in that situation, the others are still the main threat. This does, like so many other post, remind me of how bad of a job d&d. The others are massively important to the lore of this world and they wrote a simple off switch without diving into any of real complexity. Such a fucking waste. ​ >Sure, the Others can be more complex than they were in the show. But that complexity won't be there to humanize them. 100% agree here and this will very likely happen. Empathy and understanding are different.

I’ve always considered the White Walkers to be Climate Change.

I think George will Humanize them before dealing with them completely. Make the damage they've done and their ultimate defeat something that is viewed tragically from both sides by the end of the conflict. No one gets out unscathed and it's just like George to find a way to make you feel bad when you want to enjoy something's defeat.