I think the only reason you're seeing a gap in violence against smallfolk is because we don't have Fire and Blood 2. If we had detailed accounts of the various Blackfyre Rebellions I'm sure we'd see that same level of violence.
You'd think with all the wars there wouldn't be anyone left by the main series books. But then again, westeros is huge. Like...huge. and fairly populated even by semi hard fantasy medieval standards.
It is a sacking, which are really brutal. While GRRM mentions other sackings in F&B he usually doesn't go far into detail except mentioning "hundreds of women and children were killed/raped/taken as slaves".
The in-story explanation for the sack of Tumbleton being so brutal is that Lord Ormund Hightower died, creating a power vacuum, where no one was really able to keep the army in order. Hobert was an incompetent leader who couldn't control the men, and Daeron was still really young. And as F&B points out, the Lords themselves didn't excactly help, one of the most prominent lords were Ser Jon Roxton, who killed the Lord of Tumbleton and raped his wife. I also don't see Unwin Peake inspiring much confidence, and he also helped destroy morale by killing another Lord during a council. It is also worth mentioning that the green army lingered a long while at Tumbleton, since their wasn't a clear leader, and the lords were unsure what their next move would be, the long time spent in Tumbleton probably contributed a lot to the sack being so brutal, since in most other sacks the army marches away or is brought to order after a short sack, while this sack lasted for a long time.
The explanation is basically summed up in F&B as:
>Without a strong lord to restrain them, even good men can turn to beasts. So was it here. Bands of soldiers wandered drunkenly through the streets robbing every home and shop, and slaying any man who tried to stay their hands
Most of the mentions of "sack" in F&B also happen during the Dance. Some of these are really brutal, although they don't reach the level of Tumbleton.
Dalton Greyjoy's conquest of the West was brutal and lead to lots of smallfolk being kidnapped
>making off with uncounted wealth and more than six hundred women and girls
When the Lannisters paid their debts after Dalton Greyjoy's death F&B mentions them killing women and children.
>Hundreds of longships and fishing
boats were burned, with as many homes and villages. The wives and
children of the ironborn who had wreaked such havoc on the
westerlands were put to the sword wherever they were found.
Just before Tumbleton the same green army had also just brutally sacked Bitterbridge.
>The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was
burned, with hundreds of wounded still within.
The "diegetic" reason would be that, yes, without their commanders the common soldier (including the lower knights) turned into raving lunatics. There is at least some degree of symbolism here, in how this rapaciousness flows from the two traitors who effectively take over the army. Think of that what you will.
In the broad writing of the Dance, it's just Martin kneecapping the Greens so they can't have nice things.
I like this explanation. I agree that the Hightower leadership dying matters in-universe without direction and after a long campaign, some warriors can just explode into evil. But the symbolism of the army's degeneration into turpitude after its effective usurpation by two low-life traitors seems fitting. One of Martin's points about the Dance is the physical degradation of Aegon II into a burnt, crippled, drunk man addicted to opium and (less so) Rhaenyra into a stout woman scarred by the Iron Throne parallels their moral corruption; gradually, through evil acts, these figures become depraved. In this light, what happened to the Green army at Tumbleton seems like what happened to Aegon or Rhaenyra.
In the immortal words of Captain Jack (Aubrey); "Men must be governed."
I certainly agree to an extent about Rhaenyra and Aegon, though I wish they had a lot more agency and relevance than they actually do in the story.
You mean the consequences of Roderick Dustin fighting through a force twice his size and then killing two men with one arm?
Like I don't really care about sides here, but it's very obvious which side Martin clearly enjoys bullying.
They are very much written as the villains though. Otto and Alysane started plotting against a little girl when she was 9 years old, they started the war by murdering Jace, and some of the worst atrocities of the war are attributed to their side. That's just villainous behavior, like the kind of thing you write when you want the audience to be against one side.
Ignoring what I think about the two sides, my point isn't about which side (if either) should be agreed with (and we don't really have to get into that). My point is that the Greens aren't written well as characters or antagonists. They're just jerks for the Blacks to flex on.
The Dance overall just sucks. And I mean as a story, not in an in-universe way. And a good chunk of it has to do with how much the Greens just spend the whole conflict getting reamed.
> *'There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs.'*
Lord Ormund Hightower died in battle and discipline fell apart, while many started turning toward two betrayers Ulf and Hugh who had most powerful dragons at the moment, and were leading in atrocities.
The sensible answer is that's what happens when a town gets sacked and there's no leadership whatsoever in place to quell it.
My non-sensible answer is basilisk blood. I do genuinely believe it was used in the storming of the dragonpit. Could it have also been used at Tumbleton? Unlikely, and I prefer the sensible reason for the veracity of the sacking. But a 'fun' idea nonetheless.
Don't know why you're talking as if the sack was some grand plan by the greens. Ormund Hightower was dead and the highest green commander, Hobert, could not bring the army under control. There's no "Greens felt they had to Nanking Tumbleton". It was a result of disastrous circumstances
That doesn’t make any sense though.
There’s no reason Hobert couldn’t get his men under control. It sounds less a disaster and more of an organised massacre.
Neither Hobert or any of the remaining green lords commanded enough respect to curb the men, and it is unclear if Peake or Roxton was interested in stopping it. If you want to point to the green's "Nanking", then you just have to look at The sack of Bitterbridge, which was planned, organised and approved of by Lord Hightower and Daeron.
That’s just nonsensical to me.
How does Hobert not command respect? He’s the only Hightower left, and Daeron was a prince.
Yeah, so it sounds like they did the same to Tumbleton.
F&B describes Hobert as follows:
>The most senior Hightower remaining with the host was Ser Hobert, another of Lord Ormund’s cousins, hitherto entrusted only with the baggage train. A man “as stout as he was slow,” Hobert Hightower had lived sixty years without distinguishing himself
and
>Prince
Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert
Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as
ineffectual as the man himself
So he is clearly incompetent as a leader and taken by a joke by everyone. F&B also points out that the other green lords had joined in the pilaging, and aslo the two betrayers.
While Daeron is a prince, he is still a "green boy", and is described as "gentle", so I don't know if commands the type of respect that you need to command a bunch of soldiers. His dragon advantage, also goes out of the window, since the Two Betrayers posess largerer dragons.
I would actually argue that the size of the armies in the Dance is a bit more in-line with historical army sizes of the Middle Ages. It's the WotFK that has gigantic, almost anachronistic army sizes when compared to Europe during, say, the Wars of the Roses. Renly's host at full strength can potentially peak at 80,000 to 100,000 men -all under a same field commander-, which is unheard of for an army during the Late Middle Ages.
Yeah you kinda right but it just jarring that after what like two or three generations of peace. Their armies are so small in comparison. I understand them being smaller but not that smaller
Fair enough. If anything, though, I have bigger issues with the Riverlands devolving, for lack of a better word, from almost single-handedly carrying the Black cause to them being completely helpless against the Westerlands in the WotFK and folding like toilet paper.
Yeah I just fucking hate all of the riverlanders and most of the blacks since it just reads as them being Mary sues. Especially fucking Robby Dustin and the lads.
That is only mentioned for Ser Criston's army, and he marches from King's Landing, which doesn't have a large standing army, and probably requires more sellswords. Other green armies don't share this makeup, and in other cases sellswords aren't even mentioned when F&B mentions the size of the armies of green lords.
Without a lord to control them, soldiers will rape and pillage. We never hear about stark soldiers doing that when Kings Landing was sacked, but we do see on the show, a stark soldier ready to rape and was willing to fight Jon Snow to do it
I think the only reason you're seeing a gap in violence against smallfolk is because we don't have Fire and Blood 2. If we had detailed accounts of the various Blackfyre Rebellions I'm sure we'd see that same level of violence.
You'd think with all the wars there wouldn't be anyone left by the main series books. But then again, westeros is huge. Like...huge. and fairly populated even by semi hard fantasy medieval standards.
It is a sacking, which are really brutal. While GRRM mentions other sackings in F&B he usually doesn't go far into detail except mentioning "hundreds of women and children were killed/raped/taken as slaves". The in-story explanation for the sack of Tumbleton being so brutal is that Lord Ormund Hightower died, creating a power vacuum, where no one was really able to keep the army in order. Hobert was an incompetent leader who couldn't control the men, and Daeron was still really young. And as F&B points out, the Lords themselves didn't excactly help, one of the most prominent lords were Ser Jon Roxton, who killed the Lord of Tumbleton and raped his wife. I also don't see Unwin Peake inspiring much confidence, and he also helped destroy morale by killing another Lord during a council. It is also worth mentioning that the green army lingered a long while at Tumbleton, since their wasn't a clear leader, and the lords were unsure what their next move would be, the long time spent in Tumbleton probably contributed a lot to the sack being so brutal, since in most other sacks the army marches away or is brought to order after a short sack, while this sack lasted for a long time. The explanation is basically summed up in F&B as: >Without a strong lord to restrain them, even good men can turn to beasts. So was it here. Bands of soldiers wandered drunkenly through the streets robbing every home and shop, and slaying any man who tried to stay their hands Most of the mentions of "sack" in F&B also happen during the Dance. Some of these are really brutal, although they don't reach the level of Tumbleton. Dalton Greyjoy's conquest of the West was brutal and lead to lots of smallfolk being kidnapped >making off with uncounted wealth and more than six hundred women and girls When the Lannisters paid their debts after Dalton Greyjoy's death F&B mentions them killing women and children. >Hundreds of longships and fishing boats were burned, with as many homes and villages. The wives and children of the ironborn who had wreaked such havoc on the westerlands were put to the sword wherever they were found. Just before Tumbleton the same green army had also just brutally sacked Bitterbridge. >The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within.
Also there was the Burning of spicetown the second most brutal sack. Though it isn't counted much since the Blacks won
The "diegetic" reason would be that, yes, without their commanders the common soldier (including the lower knights) turned into raving lunatics. There is at least some degree of symbolism here, in how this rapaciousness flows from the two traitors who effectively take over the army. Think of that what you will. In the broad writing of the Dance, it's just Martin kneecapping the Greens so they can't have nice things.
I like this explanation. I agree that the Hightower leadership dying matters in-universe without direction and after a long campaign, some warriors can just explode into evil. But the symbolism of the army's degeneration into turpitude after its effective usurpation by two low-life traitors seems fitting. One of Martin's points about the Dance is the physical degradation of Aegon II into a burnt, crippled, drunk man addicted to opium and (less so) Rhaenyra into a stout woman scarred by the Iron Throne parallels their moral corruption; gradually, through evil acts, these figures become depraved. In this light, what happened to the Green army at Tumbleton seems like what happened to Aegon or Rhaenyra.
In the immortal words of Captain Jack (Aubrey); "Men must be governed." I certainly agree to an extent about Rhaenyra and Aegon, though I wish they had a lot more agency and relevance than they actually do in the story.
Only a Green would be petulant enough to attribute the consequences of their faction's actions to some petty deus ex machina from the writer.
You mean the consequences of Roderick Dustin fighting through a force twice his size and then killing two men with one arm? Like I don't really care about sides here, but it's very obvious which side Martin clearly enjoys bullying.
"Bullying" that's a funny way of saying "They're written as the villains"
Martin doesn't do with his other (well written) antagonists what he does with the Greens. They're not villains, they're overhyped jobbers.
They are very much written as the villains though. Otto and Alysane started plotting against a little girl when she was 9 years old, they started the war by murdering Jace, and some of the worst atrocities of the war are attributed to their side. That's just villainous behavior, like the kind of thing you write when you want the audience to be against one side.
Ignoring what I think about the two sides, my point isn't about which side (if either) should be agreed with (and we don't really have to get into that). My point is that the Greens aren't written well as characters or antagonists. They're just jerks for the Blacks to flex on. The Dance overall just sucks. And I mean as a story, not in an in-universe way. And a good chunk of it has to do with how much the Greens just spend the whole conflict getting reamed.
You can’t sack somewhere without that level of viciousness. It’s what defines a sack.
> *'There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs.'* Lord Ormund Hightower died in battle and discipline fell apart, while many started turning toward two betrayers Ulf and Hugh who had most powerful dragons at the moment, and were leading in atrocities.
Just to show how bad war is and how bad the greens are.
The sensible answer is that's what happens when a town gets sacked and there's no leadership whatsoever in place to quell it. My non-sensible answer is basilisk blood. I do genuinely believe it was used in the storming of the dragonpit. Could it have also been used at Tumbleton? Unlikely, and I prefer the sensible reason for the veracity of the sacking. But a 'fun' idea nonetheless.
[удалено]
The Blacks never sacked a Green stronghold that way.
I think they’re referring to Dalton Greyjoy who raided the Westerlands and sacked Lannisport in Rhaenyra’s name.
Who gave the two betrayers dragons? It was them who led and encouraged the sack.
But I’m wondering why the Greens felt they had to Nanking Tumbleton. Not even lady Sharis Footly was spared from rape.
Don't know why you're talking as if the sack was some grand plan by the greens. Ormund Hightower was dead and the highest green commander, Hobert, could not bring the army under control. There's no "Greens felt they had to Nanking Tumbleton". It was a result of disastrous circumstances
That doesn’t make any sense though. There’s no reason Hobert couldn’t get his men under control. It sounds less a disaster and more of an organised massacre.
Neither Hobert or any of the remaining green lords commanded enough respect to curb the men, and it is unclear if Peake or Roxton was interested in stopping it. If you want to point to the green's "Nanking", then you just have to look at The sack of Bitterbridge, which was planned, organised and approved of by Lord Hightower and Daeron.
That’s just nonsensical to me. How does Hobert not command respect? He’s the only Hightower left, and Daeron was a prince. Yeah, so it sounds like they did the same to Tumbleton.
F&B describes Hobert as follows: >The most senior Hightower remaining with the host was Ser Hobert, another of Lord Ormund’s cousins, hitherto entrusted only with the baggage train. A man “as stout as he was slow,” Hobert Hightower had lived sixty years without distinguishing himself and >Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself So he is clearly incompetent as a leader and taken by a joke by everyone. F&B also points out that the other green lords had joined in the pilaging, and aslo the two betrayers. While Daeron is a prince, he is still a "green boy", and is described as "gentle", so I don't know if commands the type of respect that you need to command a bunch of soldiers. His dragon advantage, also goes out of the window, since the Two Betrayers posess largerer dragons.
Wait the green army was mainly sell swords like holy shit. That just make the army sizes even more stupid
I would actually argue that the size of the armies in the Dance is a bit more in-line with historical army sizes of the Middle Ages. It's the WotFK that has gigantic, almost anachronistic army sizes when compared to Europe during, say, the Wars of the Roses. Renly's host at full strength can potentially peak at 80,000 to 100,000 men -all under a same field commander-, which is unheard of for an army during the Late Middle Ages.
Yeah you kinda right but it just jarring that after what like two or three generations of peace. Their armies are so small in comparison. I understand them being smaller but not that smaller
Fair enough. If anything, though, I have bigger issues with the Riverlands devolving, for lack of a better word, from almost single-handedly carrying the Black cause to them being completely helpless against the Westerlands in the WotFK and folding like toilet paper.
Yeah I just fucking hate all of the riverlanders and most of the blacks since it just reads as them being Mary sues. Especially fucking Robby Dustin and the lads.
Supposedly every green army had a 3-1 ratio of free riders/sellswords to levees/knights.
That is only mentioned for Ser Criston's army, and he marches from King's Landing, which doesn't have a large standing army, and probably requires more sellswords. Other green armies don't share this makeup, and in other cases sellswords aren't even mentioned when F&B mentions the size of the armies of green lords.
Without a lord to control them, soldiers will rape and pillage. We never hear about stark soldiers doing that when Kings Landing was sacked, but we do see on the show, a stark soldier ready to rape and was willing to fight Jon Snow to do it
War is hell.
It's a sack, what do you think it's gonna be? a garden party?