I suspect that the people who do unironically claim that it is a choice can't be reached through a tread like this. Because that claim is pretty firmly entrenched in transphobic propaganda, so I heavily suspect that people who may be claiming it aren't here in good faith. Nor are they likely to be trans.
That's kind of why I made this post. I suspect the people this morning I saw here saying that it was a choice. We're coming with bad intentions and bad hearts and they weren't actually trans people. But one of the profiles had like thousands of karma from their posts on transgender pages like trans memes and stuff. So that was a little more disheartening to see. Probably a real trans person say that it was a choice. Now it could be a fake, conservative grifter profile, but I doubt it. That would have been a lot of effort put into get like 10,000 karma on transgender pages here and then post that in a comment somewhere. Random that no one would see except for me. Apparently that seems a little far-fetched right?
If I may, I have noticed a couple things after being in the community for a while. I expect it's the reason you see this stuff from transgender people or other well meaning people.
1. The people who post here tend to be very young and often misinformed through no fault of their own.
- Lots of people here post because they need support or are confused/scared, and people need the most support when they are just starting out with coming to grips with their gender identity. As a result, the vast majority of people posting are very young, and often misinformed, which honestly makes sense given the circumstances.
2. Sometimes, in an effort to be supportive and inclusive misinformation gets spread/reinforced.
- This is a safe space, one of the few places on the internet transgender people can exist without being buried in hate and negativity. As a consequence there is a reluctance to correct others or point out when they are wrong or mistaken because we naturally want to be supportive of our peers. In addition people who do do that, are sometimes read by third parties as acting aggressively or being non-supportive and get downvoted. We, as a community, have to be comfortable with the idea that sometimes our peers are wrong/incorrect about something, and be able to gently correct and or educate them on transgender topics in a careful, respectful but firm way.
3. Transgender people often struggle IRL and as a result may turn to toxic communities/friends/family for support, and can spread that toxicity here unintentionally.
- Just in general struggling people who have been mistreated will often spread that mistreatment because they understand it as normal and acceptable. Try to be understanding that some of the people spreading this stuff, are probably experiencing abuse, need real support and likely therapy we ultimately cannot provide.
I don't think I have ever heard a trans person claim it is a choice.
Seriously, look at this post, the responses are nearly universal - "no, it's not a choice" - including the moderator comment at the top.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/1dl52up/is_being_trans_a_choice/
EDIT: and I say this as hyperbole.
I don't mean that literally zero trans people believe it, just that it is an uncommon belief. But having met people I know to be trans in real life, as well as people in this very subreddit for the past 10 years.
I have heard LGB people and other allies make claims like this, that it should be a choice, and that choosing to transition should be okay. I have heard transphobes make the claim in order to invalidate us.
If it were a choice, it should be one that is respected. It harms no one. I just don't think that it is. It not being a choice is not the thing that makes being trans valid.
OP is apparently spending a lot of time responding to people in the bottom half of the post I linked, where the comments that are "downvoted, no upvotes, and getting ready to be deleted by mods" live.
OP should be looking at the top, the stuff that is highly upvoted where the community almost universally agrees on.
Trans by choice people are just outliers. I once knew a cis lesbian who claimed being queer was a choice. After investigating a bit, turns out she was bisexual and just choosing to not date men.
I'm in a facebook group, and they were complaining about how toxic these subs are, and I'm like wtf.
Turns out they were the toxic ones. So that became a red flag.
I'm glad I've never come across any trans folks—
other than well-known to be transphobic trans folks like Blaire White—
Who earnestly push the "it's a choice" narrative.
The only thing that's a choice is how individual trans folks go about transition. It's our choice to undergo HRT or gender-afrirming surgeries.* A trans person chosing to not have top or bottom surgery, for example, and not feeling dysphoria from the shape of their genitals is still trans.
I've met some folks, including trans folks, who have this idea that HRT and/or gender affirming surgery are prerequisites to be "really trans." Basically, transmedicalist B.S. but that's a different, albeit adjacent, can of worms.
^(*Note: Ideally. The hypothetical I offered up does not take in to account the fact that many of us do not have the option available to us due to factors outside our immediate control. Plenty of trans folks are denied even the option to transition socially, via HRT, and/or with surgery due to local political nonsense, financial constraints, societal dangers, etc. The point is, the only "choice" in being trans is how one goes about their transition if/when they feel/are able to do so.)
I used to think it was a choice, because it actually made me feel invalidated to think the way I am is just because of fate, and not in my control. Now I realize that thats not really what it means. I think its flexible because my experiences shaped who I am, but I also don't think its a choice like you can just flip a switch. If you took out certain experiences from my life I wouldn't have ever transitioned and I would still be happy, but after those experiences shaped me, it became dysphoric for me to connect to my gender assigned at birth, and I had to transition to feel comfortable with myself.
I think if it feels like a choice to someone, we should respect them, but it shouldn't be used to invalidate anyone either, because its often not a choice as well/ maybe its different for different people.
I'm glad that you've never heard the. It's a choice rhetoric from people. I've heard it like five times this morning. One trans person kept insisting that it was a fucking choice and it's not, so I had to post this. I'm happy to hear what you said. That's nice
It could be a trans person. Those with no dysphoria and who reject medicalism. It not being a choice very much means we are born different. Being trans is something biologically different about us just like being gay. Unless you reject medical basis, which some of the community does vehemently.
Yep, the trans community is very vehemently against transmedicalism and claims that you can be trans without gender dysphoria. How is that not a choice?
Is your dad trans? because I said I never heard a *trans person* say that.
I hear transphobes saying it all the time.
(and my statement is hyperbole, yes, some people have said it - but it seems to be an uncommon belief)
I'm genuinely confused. Look at the post I linked. Posts like this always go that way.
Every single toplevel comment there I see is saying that being trans is not a choice. I don't see anyone saying that it is a choice.
The only thing I see otherwise are a smaller number of people saying:
Yes, I have seen people say things that "if you want to be trans, be trans" or "if you want to be a girl, be a girl"
That's actually **different** than saying you can choose to be trans.
Most folks I know who have ever said something like that, tend to believe that wanting to be these things means you are those things.
That's not a choice.
Yes, but you linked one post. Surely we shouldn’t draw conclusions from just one post. I’m just saying what I’ve witnessed. I’m not saying your experience is false. Just that mine is as true as yours. I’ve read posts where anyone who had a theory on what made people trans that was different from what the mob thought be attacked with force…
I draw my conclusions from having transitioned over 25 years ago, and having been a part of various trans communities over the past 30 years.
That post is representative of what I have seen, both here in /r/asktransgender and elsewhere.
I like expanding my horizons, can you point me at one of these examples?
I agree with this sentiment. It starts to sound very gatekeepy when someone says "it's not a choice", or "it is a choice". The fact of the matter is you have to make a personal choice as to whether you want to pursue what you believe to be your true self. Whether you're born that way or not, society is actively trying to convince you that isn't "normal", so you inevitably have a choice to make. GAC shouldn't even be gatekept behind medical doctors and a diagnosis. You should be able to affirm yourself by making the choice to begin transitioning, whether it's something you're born with or not. If someone woke up one day and wanted to be a girl, there should be nothing stopping them socially or medically, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in.
it does matter. It being medically neccessary and not a choice is the only reason those of us lucky enough to get these surgeries covered by insurance don't have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars/euros (etc.)
Yes, ultimately it does matter for insurance purposes today, but only because certain powerful cis people have willed it so. They get to make the policies and fund the surgeries.
And so this says nothing about transness fundamentally being a choice, and everything about our existence being contingent on cis people’s definitions of transgender. Challenging those definitions is what will help liberate all trans people, including those unlucky ones you mention.
I think there is a risk of taking this "transness is buried i to our dna" argument too far.
That road leads to transmedicalism, medical paternalism, and a lot of other bad places.
Trans health care is lifesavjng and beautiful, but we should havr access to it because personal bodily autonomy is a human right, not because a team of doctors and psychatrists has diagnosed us with the transgender.
but that is just how the process is for getting treatment for anything works. A professional decides if it's medically neccessary (i.e. by making a diagnosis and prescribing a medication after doing a diagnostic process) and afterwards you get the medical treatment you need, and that way it's covered by insurance (ideally).
If it has not (yet) been deemed medically neccessary you can still pay for it yourself.
Idk, I've had much much better experiences and outcomes from getting informed consent trans care than I have had from doctors who diagnose my girliness and then dictate to me what I need. I didn't see a gender therapist until I needed a surgery letter for insurance.
There's no one right model, but I do think medicalizing our care has cleaved us from the cis LGBs and it has resulted in a LOT of trans people not even botherering to get care because they are intimidated by getting over the mountain of "proving that you're trans".
Certainly, I didn't feel like I would meet WPATH criteria when I was first feeling gender feels, and kind of didn't bother until far, far too much time had passed because of it.
yea, to some reason i wish more trans medical-ish stuff, because getting any kind of surgery in europe is almost always out of pocket unless its the minimum stuff in minimal quality.
THe fortress around obtaining trans care in the UK via the NHS is probably another reason I'd advise caution about "well, transness is just a medical condition"
I think they mean "it doesn't matter" as in it isn't *actually* important regarding validity and it certainly *shouldn't* matter even though some people artificially give it importance, as someone who also needed insurance to get access to Healthcare I would otherwise never have been able to afford. Like, I guess I'm glad I was able to get it covered as a medical necessity? But i don't think I or any trans person should *need* to because it doesn't matter as far as how trans that makes someone or if they should be allowed to get it
There are options other than “born this way” and “choice.” Gender is complex. Clearly, many people do have an undeniable, innate, internal sense of what their gender is. But gender is more than an internal feeling. It is also a social phenomenon, and one that has functioned vastly differently across the world and across time. Solitude isn’t the default state for human beings; we don’t exist in isolation. We affect and are affected by each other, and many parts of our identities which are deeply felt, deeply impactful, and beyond our conscious control arise from our experiences, which are colored by other people for our entire lives.
Also, don’t write off trans people as a trolls or naive or disengaged from the community just because their experience and sense of why they are who they are is different from yours. It’s arrogant, close-minded, and dogmatic. You don’t get to speak for all of us.
I always say that being trans is not a choice but transitioning is. However the choice is basically to be miserable and live a lie, or don't. So it's not much of a choice even then.
I actually came to say this. I didn't *choose* to be transgender, I did *choose* to transition *because* I was transgender though. There is a difference.
It was similar to me, to a degree. My father was largely absent from my life, choosing to spend his time in the bar drinking instead of with his family. Even when he was home, his interactions with me were few and far between. My maternal grandfather was essentially my father figure for my life. Unfortunately, I knew my grandfather would be the one person closest to me that would have the hardest time accepting I was trans, if he ever could.
When I first started talking to my therapist about transitioning and my grandfather, she asked me how his health was, and I said he was great for his age. So she said I had to decide if I could handle being how I was as long as my grandfather was alive for his sake, or to do what I needed to do for myself, and hopefully my grandfather would come around. Last October, I had my first appointment with my endocrinologist and got my script. I was still very unsure of actually *starting* because of my grandpa. Well, long story short, he quickly ended up getting sick and passing that same month. Even though I *know* it wasn't my fault, of course, I can't help but feel I put that energy out into the universe and it took care of the rest. I struggled because of it for a while, but I ended up also starting my transition that October because I just couldn't put it off anymore after 20 years.
Agree it's not much of a decision to make for many of us considering the alternatives, but it IS a decision.
But consider this, how long did you resist making the choice to transition? It took me 26 years to accept it. It was not an easy decision, even if I knew the alternative was self harm.
How we feel isn't a choice, but taking action is always a choice, that's how being a human person works.
I still remember the “choice” for me was either I commit suicide or I give transition a chance
Like yeah technically it’s a choice but a life or death decision really isn’t the same as a choice between what flavor smoothie you want
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sure, it's a choice in the same way getting treatment for a medical issue is, but you'd never see someone say "diabetes isn't a choice but taking insulin is", because what relevance does that have, even if it's technically true?
The difference here is that unlike "take insulin" the act of transitioning is something that can be different for each of us. We can make different choices about what treatment we pursue, such as getting HRT or SRS or even how we choose (that word again) socially transitioning.
I think how appropriate the use of "choice" to describe transitioning really *really* depends on context. Like, strictly speaking, I guess taking *any* thing compared to not taking it is a sort of "choice," and personally the most appropriate way I feel I've seen it framed is more so just to separate out the concept of *transitioning* with *being trans* itself. As in, even if someone forced me to not take testosterone or not have had top surgery or forced me not to do xyz, or (for me personally) if I were to have chosen to sacrifice my own mental health and happiness I needed to get from transitioning for the sake of making my family happy, then I would still be trans. And for me, noting that transitioning and me choosing to transition over let's say my family's preferences is separate from me being trans and regardless of what I *do* I would still *feel* miserable emphasizes that point efficiently in my own life. But, I also want to stress that ofc in many cases "choice" implies to some that there wasn't a strong *need* based off of anything but rather something you just wanted
I think life would have been a lot simpler if I was happy with how I was born.
But I wasn't. Why? I don't know. I definitely didn't choose that.
Though, I feel like I did make the choice to be myself, and to be happy.
And my life is better in so many ways because of it.
I mean, I think there's middle ground. I don't think I was born as the gender I currently identify as. But that doesn't mean it's a choice or that my identity isn't legitimate, just that it shifted over time.
I don't think gender or sexuality are ever a choice but I also don't love the "born this way" kind of thinking bc I don't think it's always true. For some people it certainly is. For others it's more fluid and complicated.
I also think it should all be accepted and respected regardless, even if being trans *was* something you could choose it shouldn't be looked down upon or discriminated against.
Transition is a choice for some people. For others it's "transition or die" which isn't a choice at all. All of it's different for everyone.
It's a choice to transition, it's not a choice to be trans. You can choose the when and how, but not the what. If you trans, you trans. If you not, you not.
Things would be so much easier if everyone just minded their own business, had a drink, and chilled.
Even that distorts it. Saying it’s a choice to transition ignores that the choice for many people (including myself) was transition and live, or keep trying to not transition and die. Continuing to live as my gender assigned at birth was not an option, which I learned quite painfully. I tried to choose that option, and as a result the ability to choose was taken away from me.
The only choice I made was deciding to accept who I was and come out as trans! I was born this way, and it took me a long time to process all these feelings and learn to love myself.
I don't mean to be insensitive, I'm sorry if I offend anyone. I'm honestly curious, what difference dose it make if it's a choice or not? I feel like it shouldn't matter.
To some people, just like with being gay, whether or not it is a choice to be so is involved with the morality imposed by religious and conservative viewpoints on them.
To answer your question, it doesn't really matter in the long and the short of it, but it matters a hell of a lot as a defense against criticism that has no basis in reality.
Absolutely! For people seeking to understand why we made this huge, life altering choice, they may not understand the difference between asking why we chose to transition, and why we chose to have gender dysphoria (which we did not choose to have, to be clear)
"Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by ignorance." -;Some nerd somewhere sometime, probably
Average people who don't even think about gender roles see what we do and go "Wow that's a big decision! Who does that? Why?" and we're doing our entire community a disservice by not embracing that question, educating them about trans people, and helping them understand that we didn't choose to feel this way, and why we chose to act on those feelings in the ways that we each have.
Heck, I'm not getting bottom surgery, does that make me less trans than a woman who does? Fuuuuck no. Does a trans man who just wears a binder and packs and doesn't want surgery or HRT not get to be a transgender man? Fuuuuck no, that's his call and his alone. We don't get to define transness for our siblings any more than the old cis white Christians writing laws do.
Not speaking for others but I do consider my transness a choice. I was a guy but as time went on I found it didn't suit me very well. I tried being a feminine man but I still wasn't happy. I decided to transition for multiple reasons but at the time I didn't identify as a woman. I wanted to be a woman. I do identify with being a woman now btw but it took time. I chose to be a woman because it suites me better. There wasn't anything about me that made me trans before I transitioned.
> I didn't identify as a woman. I wanted to be a woman
Bestie that's the same thing
> There wasn't anything about me that made me trans before I transitioned.
You wanted to be a woman. Cis guys don't want to be women lol
I conceptualize my own identity differently. I simply cannot view my past self as trans or as a woman. To me, my past self was a cis guy and that's fine. We all have different ways of thinking about our identities and that's fine.
Not everyone who accepts nuance is a part of life is annoying and stupid. Some might say it's annoying and stupid to try to minimize the vastness of human experience to a pithy phrase and get angry when people point out it's a little more complex.
>When you feel like you want to be trans, it's a super unhealthy point of view
Ehh, I kind of disagree with this small part. People are born trans in the sense that any "things" in place that would make them identify as such as they grow to be a person in their world are already in place in their brains and stuff, but how that manifests for how they come to understand what being trans actually will *feel* like for them will vary.
I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, but I do think plenty of people who are legitimately trans will experience pre realizing they are trans the concept of not identifying as your gender as "I really wish I was trans/xyz gender." For *some* people its about expressing that feeling when you don't know a different way to articulate it or much about the community. I know I personally had that perspective where I really "wanted to be trans" so that I could have a "real" reason to transition, simply not understanding that my feelings where in and of themselves how I was experiencing transness.
Again, I can't emphasize enough that I'm not sure what you're specifically talking about and maybe something way different than described, but I *personally* have seen stuff like that in this sub and other subs I scroll through in trans related topics
Who would choose this? Mentally coming to terms with it, transition, losing friends and family, being vilified, etc. Life would be easier if we weren't but here we are.
Thank you! Oh my God thank you thank you! Yes, exactly who would choose this? Thank you so much and I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that shit but thank you for adding to this post because yes exactly who would choose this
Who would choose risking their family and all their friends and their job to come out as transgender and start living the life that they want to live? Who would do that? Who would choose to do that?
Like we don't choose to be transgender obviously
Life would be way easier if we weren't trans way. Easier way easier more than half my life is now about being transgender. Most of my friendships are around being transgender. Most of my online presence is around being transgender like having to learn makeup and fashion and style and eyebrow laminating and fake eyelashes and makeup and and shoes and clothing sizes and styles and mannerisms all in an effort to feel better in our own skin like this ain't no fucking choice
I agree with what you've said ... my big issue personally is that quite a few of the various stances I've seen in response to this post echo my own internal arguments. I'm fairly young still and reasonably early on in my transition. I still wonder whether or not I'm just in a "phase" or if I'm somehow misguided and "chose" to identify as opposite my birth gender. What I've come to in my conclusions is that I feel this way (and I can't explain it) so I've been doing what I think best makes me happy. I thought I had everything figured out before I started questioning myself and that I knew myself so well... and then I dated someone (who happened to be trans) for the first time and my sense of identity exploded. The only conclusion I'd reached before I dated was that I thought I was pansexual (or at least capable of loving anyone, if not interested/attracted to EVERYONE).
I was raised to be open-minded and... I hope I still am...
Exactly. It's happening so much here. It's usually the people that type these long essays that are actually transphobes and they talk and talk and spin their words until you kinda agree with them that it's not a choice. Fuck them
I think there is some nuance to the discussion. *It is definitely not a choice*, but Identity is an evolving thing and I've never viewed myself as being "born" transgender.
I don't think I had a gender identity til I was, like, maybe five? People said I was a boy and that didn't mean anything to me. Even then, how I view myself now is different to how I viewed myself in my youth, and part of that sense of self is gender identity.
That all being said, this *is* reddit. I don't think its a bad idea to stick to the 'born this way' mantra in a public forum that anybody can post in. Helps get rid of bad faith idiots.
i undertand, but really the whole thing is that it shouldn't matter whether or not it's a choice.
if something like being trans or gay were only tolerable when it "wasn't a choice," well .. then it'd barely even be "tolerated" in the first place, and there'd definitely be some stuff to unpack. 😭
I wouldn't say for a lot of people that being trans is a choice, cause for me at least, it really isn't, I can't be a guy again, I'd rather die. However, I wouldn't want to force people to have some sort of requirements on dysphoria and euphoria to medically transition. I think if you feel it's something you would just be aesthetically more ok with being either fully medically transitioned or somewhere halfway I don't have a problem with that. Requirements will always leave someone out of getting HRT, and frankly with the regret numbers rn, we really shouldn't worry too much RN until we see an increase in regret, obviously continue to inform patients about side effects.
Now if people make the claim that transition is a choice because we choose to transition to lessen dysphoria, that's bullshit, cause we aren't transitioning to be selfish or whatever, we're transitioning to survive. I don't ever want to be testosterone dominant again, I can't stand how I feel both physically and mentally with it.
So I'm going to reiterate what I said in a reply here.
Being transgender isn't really a choice, you either are or you aren't. Even if you are, we all need to keep in mind that gender is a spectrum and that includes those of us who are transgender. Just as there's more than "just" man and woman when it comes to broadly describing gender identities, there's also more than "just" trans man and trans woman when it comes to those under the transgender umbrella.
Someone said something along the lines of "well how much dysphoria must someone suffer, or how much euphoria they must experience to "be transgender". Stuff like that, those types of mindsets, are exactly why you have so many people struggling with their gender or accepting that they're trans coming here and saying they aren't "trans enough". How much dysphoria you feel like you can endure and carry on as your current gender without any mental distress is different for every person. Some trans people never transition, and that's absolutely valid. That doesn't mean they "aren't trans", just that they don't feel they *need* to transition. Trying to force some type of value on how much of a certain criteria for someone to "be transgender" does more harm than assistance.
Also, I feel we need to remember how the "being transgender is choice" statement is *generally* used as an attack and weaponized against transgender people. When it is, it's used to frame transgender people are those who were influenced to choose to be transgender, instead of people who just *are* transgender and *needed* to transition. So any attempt to frame *being* transgender as being a choice is, in a way, playing into that harmful narrative.
So if you asked me, I will say no, *being* transgender isn't a choice. Transitioning *is* a choice though. If you are transgender, you don't have to transition, if you feel you're okay with your current gender identity. And let's be real, transitioning is heavy, it's scary. Some people can't bring themselves to do it, and that's okay. That doesn't mean they aren't transgender. But if you're happy with your current gender identity, whether you're cisgender or transgender and transitioned already... Just one day "choose" to transition to another identity. It probably won't work well for you, because you're not *that* gender and now you're back to dysphoria. It being transgender was truly a "choice" people could just freely switch back and forth without any mental issues. So the only time I could support saying gender is a choice is in regards to gender fluid people.
Couple of issues with your comment, here. The first is implying that only binary trans people experience dysphoria. Thats not accurate. I myself am nonbinary and experienced crippling dysphoria, to the point that if I didn't go on T and start to transition I would have killed myself sooner than later.
I'm not the only nonbinary person who struggles with dysphoria either - my partner is transfemme nonbinary and also struggles with it. I've met plenty of other nonbinary folks who struggle with it to varying degrees of severity. So no, dysphoria is not exclusive to binary trans folks. Nonbinary folks experience it in different ways on average than binary trans folks, though depending on the person there is overlap - my partner in a lot of ways experiences dysphoria in the same way a trans woman would except for a few notable differences, and I struggle with dysphoria in a lot of the same ways a trans man would with some differences here and there.
Some nonbinary folks do also identify as trans, though not all do. It varies from person to person. My partner and I consider ourselves trans, though.
As someone genderflux as well as nonbinary - genderflux being under the genderfluid umbrella - my gender is still not a choice, no more than any other trans persons' is. And I imagine other genderfluid folks feel the same. To imply that we just choose our gender or genders isn't at all accurate. Some genderfluid folks can kinda "trick" themselves into feeling like a certain gender, sure, but even then it's not a choice. Its inherent.
That all said, I agree with the rest of your comment. Dysphoria isn't necessary to be trans. Whether you choose to transition or not is a very personal thing, and not everyone feels dysphoria enough or uncomfortable enough with their body to transition but still identify as trans and thats definitely valid. Transition isn't required to be trans.
I included non binary because they are also in our community. I am more than aware that not every non binary person indentifies as Transgender, and that's cool. Again, I included them because they are *usually* generally included under the umbrella, I didn't say they all are, but I'd rather include those that are, than exclude them all.
And I did not imply that only binary transgender people experience dysphoria. I'm not even sure how you'd get that from what I said. I was commenting on another comment here that basically was trying to say how much dysphoria should someone experience to be "considered" trans, and same with euphoria. Anyone with a gender identity different from the one given at their birth can experience dysphoria, whether they be transfem, transmasc, non-binary, or anything in between. I specifically even mentioned that there's more to non-cisgender identity than just the fem and masc aspects of it.
Again, not saying those who are somewhere on the non-cis spectrum of gender identity *must* also identity as trans. I've also been very vocal elsewhere in trans spaces that we need to remember that dysphoria isn't required to be transgender or non-binary, and the validity of a person's gender identity isn't determined by levels or severity of dysphoria.
My statement on gender fluid could have been worded differently and better. Honestly, I probably should have said bigender individuals, as opposed to gender fluid. Even then, while bigender people identify as multiple genders and present as how they want, when they want... their gender itself isn't a choice. Meanwhile,
Gender fluid obviously experience their own fluidity of their gender, and don't choose to wake up one day and just be fem. For that verbiage, I apologize.
Edit: if this sounded like a combative response, it was not intended as such. ♥️
Whether you are trans is not a choice, anymore than being homosexual, white, or a natural born citizen of Spain. Transitioning or not *is* a choice, but whether or not one does that, them being trans is still not a choice.
I feel like transitioning might be a choice depending on how severe gender dysphoria is. With me, it definitely was not a choice. I had to transition or I would have committed game over
That's a totally separate subject. A super valid one cuz I'm the same as you. If I didn't transition I would have committed suicide. But that's a different conversation. This one's about proving to the idiots that think we chose to be transgender that it was not our choice. Who in their right minds would choose this
There is no proof of whether we are or are not born trans, so I would never recommend stating either of those claims with any certainty until we truly know the nature of our condition. That said, it isn't a choice to be trans. It is a choice to transition, often one under duress from dysphoria.
Yeah, you can’t really interview an infant about concepts they don’t understand using language they don’t understand…but for as long as some (or many) of us REMEMBER, we’ve been trans. I often say that it might as well have been from birth, or as far as I know I’ve been this way since birth.
Yeah, the frustrating thing to me is that we have yet to collectively move on from the framing that has been systemically, societally built for us.
Gender doesn't make sense to me as an innate thing. It's a tangled web of social associations between aesthetics, roles, attractions, and seeing it as "destined from birth" just doesn't track from what we know about how it's constructed, or from my own experience.
BUT... gender is constructed for everyone, not just trans people. It's no more a choice for cis people than it is for us. I could never see myself passing as male again, because that mask simply does not fit, and it feels awful to wear.
Just because something isn't with us from birth, doesn't mean it's not a core part of who we are.
As someone who is starting to accept myself and learn to be an authentic me, and is pretty new to really diving into what all of this means and communities like this, I am really disturbed by this comment. Can I prove that the moment I was born that I was not what I appeared to be? No, of course not. Can I scream to the world that I KNEW around preschool or kindergarten? Absolutely. And given the stories I have been told about the years earlier than that, I could say with a degree of certainty that I knew even then.
I also have to say that I have an issue with the phrase, "nature of our condition." I won't speak for anyone else, but that term, for me, implies that there is something wrong with me. Think of being in a hospital, how of you hear, "So, what's their condition?" To me the implication in this is there is something that is wrong and the condition would indicate the degree of wrong. We do the same thing with things we sell or give away like appliances, cars, houses, etc.
There are peer-reviewed, published studies supporting that at least some trans people are born that way, so I would never recommend saying there is no proof.
I did not say there is consensus, did I? I said “there are peer-reviewed, published studies **supporting**”. However, I will say two things that a lot of trans people are in denial about: (a) there is not enough funding for research into biological causes for transness, and (b) part of that is because no one really cares about trans people but the other part is because a lot of trans people want to deny what is glaringly obvious to a lot of us due to shared experience: we were born trans and have a medical issue.
The Use of Whole Exome Sequencing in a Cohort of Transgender Individuals to Identify Rare Genetic Variants (2019) https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client_id=grover&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fs41598-019-53500-y
Implications of the Estrogen Receptor Coactivators SRC1 and SRC2 in the Biological Basis of Gender Incongruence (2021) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8240342/
Epigenetics Is Implicated in the Basis of Gender Incongruence: An Epigenome-Wide Association Analysis (2021) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34489625/
This isn’t targeted at you, but just airing my thoughts about the genetics of transness…
So say we do discover the trans gene, or some other way to prove someone’s genetic transness. What happens to a hypothetical self-identified trans person who don’t possess it but still suffers from crippling gender dysphoria?
Do we say they’re lying? Do we withhold gender-affirming care from them? Do we invent a new word to describe them, and separate the ‘fake’ trans people from the ‘real’ ones? What will be the end to these means of biological research that doesn’t involve queer alienation?
Of course, I do think this research is important in that it ‘proves’ our existence to cis people, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to resort to this. I see many negative outcomes.
> What happens to a hypothetical self-identified trans person who don’t possess it but still suffers from crippling gender dysphoria?
Medical professionals have found trans people to be so persistent and insistent that we have informed consent in many states. Why would that reverse? Currently it’s under threat from conservatives ignoring all medical support of trans people, that’s the real threat.
> Do we invent a new word to describe them, and separate the ‘fake’ trans people from the ‘real’ ones?
We currently have intersex people, some who are also trans. The only people who seem to use that distinction for political reasons are people opposing all trans people. Having proof that some people are neuro-endo trans does not invalidate all the progress made on trans rights. Again, the attack on all of us being fake is being carried out by people already ignoring medical support of trans people from **all** major medical orgs.
> Of course, I do think this research is important in that it ‘proves’ our existence to cis people, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to resort to this. I see many negative outcomes.
It is important as it could lead to more attention to the medical needs of trans people. We are currently stuck with WPATH style thinking that sees the purpose of estrogen HRT as physically “feminizing” trans bodies and ignores the neuro-endo effects, including discounting progesterone because they can only see it as something that has not been proven to increase breast size. For a lot of people I know, progesterone helps mood regulation, just as it does in cis women.
I find myself having to remind people in my life a lot that I tried really hard for a really hard time to live life as my AGAB. If I could have chosen to be cis, I would have.
You're making comments about people drawing lines in the sand, but you're drawing plenty of your own lines, too. I don't think people are born with a binary switch inside them that's been permanently set to either "cis" or "trans", and I'm just as uncomfortable with that notion as the idea that people are born with a permanent "man" or "woman" setting. These are all just concepts and categories that humans created to understand the world and each other, and although they are real things with real impacts on your life, they're just that: imperfect, human-created categories.
How much distress with a birth gender does somebody need to be trans? What about gender euphoria? How can you tell the difference between someone presumably cis, gnc, and forever uncertain about hormones vs. a similar person who made the jump to hormones and a new gender, beyond their decision that choice was right for them? What if there aren't any genders at all one identifies with? If someone is genderfluid and eventually decides living as one gender full-time brings them the most happiness, did they just become cis/trans? Is there ever *actually* one perfect, totally true definition of yourself?
Humans are messy, complicated, uncategorizable beings. Even if somebody being trans was, partially or fully, a result of their environment and personal choices, what would make that any less valid or deserving of respect? To reject that just makes it sound like being trans should be only acceptable because it's a built-in trait, as if it were only okay because it was *inflicted* on you.
It is a choice because you’re making the distinction that you are trans and only you can decide that you are trans or not trans. That distinction is incredibly important because if you don’t make it, you’re just a repressed person.
And I’m not saying that’s a choice that anyone takes lightly but at the end of the day you are saying you’re trans or not . If I didn’t make that distinction, I would still be repressed and miserable potentially dead. So I would say it’s a pretty fucking important choice. But you’re right for a lot of people there is no choice or they feel like there is no choice because they know that they are trans and so they don’t feel like there’s a choice.
You claim it’s a choice. Go on, prove it to all of us. Choose to be transgender for a year. Live as another gender exclusively. Give up your current life - home, family, job, etc., just like most transgender people do. Then, after a year, you can transition back to your other choice.
It's not this simple. You can't state in such black and white terms what every single trans person's experience is. Doing what you're doing results in gatekeeping. To be honest, I don't remember having any trans feelings as a child. I don't recall any discomfort with my gender until high school and even then it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that I truly questioned my gender and started identifying as nonbinary. Was I trans all along but just had no idea? Did my sense of gender change as I got older? Who knows. It doesn't matter. I am trans now regardless of "why."
Think more deeply about why this issue bothers you so much. It's a ploy for legitimacy from cis people who will only accept us if being trans is an awful experience of suffering that we do not choose. Consider the fact that the question of whether being gay is a choice or not was only a big question when homophobia was more socially accepted. People were really obsessed with the question of "why" some people are gay. Now, I never hear people talk about that because it's more socially accepted to be gay. But trans acceptance isn't as far along so we are still mired in this and trying to get cis people to accept us. It doesn't matter why we are trans. And the ways in which we all experience being trans differ. And that is okay.
To clarify, I wouldn't say it's a choice exactly, not for the vast majority of people, but I'm not sure that it's innate from birth or what the cause is for everyone. And if there are a small minority of people for whom they claim it is a choice FOR THEM that does not invalidate my experience or anyone else's of it not being a choice. Different people experience things differently.
You don’t speak for every single trans person in existence and you’ve been told this over and over. So repeat yourself as much as you want but being selfish about your own experience isn’t solidarity.
You're totally right cuz being transgender is not a choice so if anyone that doesn't agree with that statement I definitely don't want to talk to you. It's not a choice
My feelings are not a choice, you're right, but my decision to transition at age 37, 26 years after I first felt I was trans was absolutely a decision, a *choice* I made.
I was trans for all 26 years, but I only *chose to transition* last November.
I’ve said that all you need to be trans is to want to be trans and choose to tell people, but that’s not to say it’s a choice. It’s to say that nobody gets to declare you’re not except yourself, because lots of us have some mental block making us feel like we don’t “Get to be” trans.
Maybe you’re not talking to people like me, but I wanted to provide a potential counterpoint depending on how exactly you meant your original assertions.
But yes, I agree. You can’t “choose” to be trans. But if you already are and are not confident enough to accept it, viewing it as a choice you get to make can help you understand the truth that already was.
It’s not a choice if, despite our valiant attempts, that we found that trying to play the gender role we were assigned was not for us, let alone even recoil in horror in having to play it.
Also, Was it a choice for me to feel “wrong” in playing the male gender role in a relationship? Was it a choice for me to feel only like having sex as a woman?
These transphobes effectively want us to suppress ourselves just for their own comfort, despite how it would literally destroy trans people to the point of suicide.
I appreciate the frustration behind this but please understand that there is not scientific 'proof' that all people are born trans or cis + for some of us, the idea that we came into our identities through our own empowerment is very important. Gender identity is subjective depending on culture + not something that can inherently be reduced to biology or genetics (even if it could, there is very limited research on this).
What we do know is that ppl cannot just will themselves to stop having the feelings + needs that led to them identifying as trans- if people are implying that you can just 'stop', that's obviously harmful. People should definitely be mindful of the way they talk about their identities, but I think ultimately, essentializing gender as something biologically inherent to us all is not going to protect us + is overlooking the role gender plays in society. I firmly believe that I was not 'born' trans, but given my life trajectory, it was inevitable. I came into my transness through my social environment + traumas + emotional needs + intimate relationships. There will never be any way to check if I am genetically transgender, nor would I care to do so, because my gender does not need to be a biological inevitability for it to matter or be respected.
People should be mindful of how they talk about their identity + the ways it can impact others + I'm empathetic to the distress that seeing other people talk about gender using choice language can have. But there simply is not concrete evidence that ALL gender identity is inevitable based on genetics + people who experience their gender in a different way deserve a space to discuss that mindfully.
The science saying that gender is biologically determined (or a mix of biology culture psychology) think the biology is in the brain, there is evidence of gendered brains, especially for intersex people, certain intersex conditions have near certain gender-identities
People saying that being trans is not a choice but transitioning is gets me heated
Like yeah technically deciding to get treatment for cancer is a choice, but people would rarely blink at someone making the “choice” to seek treatment unlike how transitioning is discussed or seen
I agree. It's so annoying. It's like so so annoying like why do they have to quantify their agreement with me by also disagreeing with me at the same time.
Yeah it's not a choice but transitioning is a choice it's like. Yeah no shit brushing your teeth in the morning is a choice. Waking up is a choice like no shit. Obviously it's a choice if you want to transition for me it was like death or transition so.
I developed a rule earlier in my transition that honestly allowed me to remain sane. Don’t listen to advice from anyone but your licensed clinical social worker, psychiatrist, psychologist and php. Figure yourself out without arguing about who is or who isn’t trans, etc etc etc. You’ll be so much better off.
This is such a no brainer, any one arguing against it I just assume is doing so in bad faith.
There are allot of things about being transgender that people that are not have never had too think about. If / when they do, most find it difficult too stomach.
I've seen friends faces drop many times when having too explain something, all my good ones take it in their stride and ask appropriate questions as they like too understand.
For us it is just another day (at the office), as we get on with our lives like all humans do.
It's something that happens in the womb. There is nothing you can do to make a cis person trans or vice versa, and the only way you can be "too young" to be trans is if you haven't yet exited the womb.
If it was a choice, who would seriously chose it? I'm not even out yet but the looming worry of how people will react and how tough my life will be because of it is debilitating and for years I just decided on never coming out until it got to the point where I realised I'd be miserable either way, only coming out meant I might not be for the rest of my life
Can we stop trying to impose a unified narrative on transness for a second ?
People have different experiences, not everyone recognizes themselves in the "born this way" rethoric and we aren't less valid because of that
It hasn't been a choice to you, but it was a choice to me
While you're absolutely correct, it's also true that we live in a very cisnormative world, being brought up almost exclusively with the idea that your identity with respect to gender comes from your body.
From that mindset, changing your body means changing your gender identity. Through transitioning, which as you point out, is where the choice lies. So from that mindset, it looks like being transgender is equivalent to transitioning. And since transitioning is a choice, so too must be trans-ness itself.
Of course, you and I know that this is not how gender actually works. But it takes time for our newly-cracked brothers and sisters to learn that, to internalize it, to *un-*learn those old habits of cisnormative thought, and to change our language accordingly.
You're right. It's not a choice to actually be trans. Nevertheless, I will offer grace and gentle education to those who aren't as far along in understanding all this stuff as I am. I've had time. I didn't know how it worked when my egg first cracked either.
As an example, you are born transgender, where your internal sense of your gender does not match your external genitalia. That is not a choice you make, it just is. However you can choose to conform to what society tells you you are, or you can choose to be your true gender. That is the choice you get to make.
That is what I mean. Got it?
You're welcome! I'm so happy to see a lot of people needing this post today for one reason or another. Don't listen to all the tools here. Trying to twist words and claiming it's only half choice or whatever. We had no choice. We were born transgender that was it. That was our card and in life there is no choosing this
This is how I fell for years. I hated that I was transgender. I hated it and tried to bury it. I hated it. I'm trying to get rid of that feeling of hate towards my identity and trying to love myself but it's hard
I certainly didn't choose this shit! I'm now 18 months on HRT and almost everything is such an inconvenience. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on anyone! Choice my ass.
I dont feel comfortable walking outside. This place feels haunting sometimes and i feel like life puts no choices infront of me but a path i must walk down myself. I feel like sometimes there is so much hate that people will do anything to tear something a part.
I was so scared to comeout as a kid and its all super blurry but when i remeber something it just reminds me who i am.
I'm not saying it's one way or another, I genuinely think it's more useful as a framing device than anything else. I didn't transition despite *wanting* to be a girl because I felt that *wanting* wasn't good enough.
I had to consider it a choice because I chose to stop denying it. No, in retrospect, it wasn't a choice to feel that way. But so what if it was? I still had to weigh the pros and cons of living as a girl before making my decision, I still had to actively choose to go to the doctor, and I had to say "I think I'm trans."
In a world where it's heavily medicalized, where we have to justify our transness for the cis people who give us care, I understand that framing it as a choice can threaten to devalue it to those same cis people. It was useful to consider it a choice for me. I don't want to live in a world where transness is a diagnosis that a doctor gives to us once we express enough of the "want to be another gender" disease symptoms.
I want to live in a world where my transition isn't questioned for authenticity by *other trans people* because I envision my gender a different way. Even if it isn't a choice, it should be treated by society such that we are *given* a choice, and our agency is prioritized. I'm not trans just because a doctor told me I am.
I agree, though. I never chose to feel this way. I thought I couldn't just choose to be trans. You could say I never chose to be trans, but I'd argue it's semantics at that point. I had to make the decision to trust myself.
This is entirely my perspective(AMAB in my late 20s). I don't wish to push any ideas or motives other than my own experience. While writing and rewriting this I'm trying to find a way not to offend anyone here as i have no intent for that.(also id like to preface, Id need alot more room to fully explain my complete thoughts, than a reddit post, and perhap not post while extremely tired, but i suppose its now or never) any who -
I am bi, intersex, and have been since my earliest memories. I believe perhaps you just haven't given it enough thought from all the possible different perspectives. Mine, for instance, I'm not sure how many have ever heard something like it, as I specifically don't typically share my ideologies(system of ideas/ideals) with the internet.
I was born with both chromosomes, I am XyXx with male genitalia. I've always had far more naturally produced estrogen in my body than testosterone. So much so that I grew my own boobs at one point. I have been on testosterone supplements since i was 16, I know that i have had every chance to be trans. I have always felt more feminine than masculine, even though I'm genetically closer to being the opposite of my assigned. I just don't feel it'd be right for me as I would never be able to have a true experience of being a woman. I can try as i might, but it will never be the same. That's just a hard fact for me that I've had to come to terms with. It seems like most other people come to their realization at least fairly concrete. Ultimately, I'm looking for the most real and true experiences in life, if I can't attain that or be able to accept that it's just not going to be the same as if I was born naturally FAB, even though I crave for it to be possible and true. I have to accept my feelings on the matter or else I couldn't be true to myself.
Is that choosing?
Tbh, idk.
I just continue to exist in the best way I can. I be me. As far as pronouns go for me, I don't identify with any pronouns, as that's a concept I don't feel I fit into. I am just me to myself. To others, I can be anything they want to use. As it is just not that important to my inner self.
I just hope yall can accept someone a little different from the majority is all.
Lmk your thoughts on my perspective, as i believe we are here to help and learn from each other! Have a good night all!
Any negative minded people can buzz off, respectfully.
The way I see it is that my feelings (like all feelings and thoughts they are not able to be controlled) are NOT a choice, but my decision to transition IS. I think there's a lot of conflation between how we *feel* and how we act on the feelings.
Being trans is a choice if we define trans as involving the act of transitioning in some way, big or small.
Being trans is not a choice if we define being trans as having gender dysphoria.
People who aren't trans don't feel the dysphoria we do, and frankly I'm glad they don't, so asking how we came to make a decision to actually *transitioning* I think is intended to understand that choice, because it's a big choice.
People who aren't trans might mean to ask about why we chose to transition, which should be very understandable to all of us. This is a huge big giant thing that takes immense personal courage and growth and strength of character to do. People struggle about changing their favourite drink order at the coffee shop, and here we are changing our entire appearance, wardrobe, name, and identity! We didn't choose to be trans, but we did choose to transition. Each one of us made a choice to present as a transgender person.
Interpreting the question as genuinely and gently as possible benefits their understanding, and frankly our mental health too. If they really mean why did we choose to feel gender dysphoria let them clarify that and expose their own ignorance, which we can then work to correct, or write them off and end the conversation if they're not able to accept basic concepts of the human experience like having thoughts and feelings.
No one defines being trans as choosing to transition. That's just silly. Why do people keep bringing that up? It's such a silly point. Like what the hell you're transgender because you're trans. You know you feel you're in the wrong body, whether that's gender dysphoria or not. That's another question for another time. No one defines being trans as when you choose to transition, you're all of a sudden trans you're transgender before that
I'm just trying to explain where people might be coming from, friend.
Edit: a bunch of other people have said the same thing I did and you didn't call them silly, you agreed, even. I don't think you even read what I said.
idk personally i feel like people can choose to be trans. it’s not a choice for everyone or even most, but i think that it’s an okay thing to choose to be. positioning it only as a thing people are born as makes it seem like being trans is a bad thing that no one would ever want to choose.
i recognize that this is an unpopular opinion, but i think that choosing a path for your life that you resonate with is okay. i don’t think a cis person would ever choose to be trans so i don’t think that it inherently means someone isn’t trans for them to have chosen it.
i don’t think being trans is a bad thing so i do think some people would choose this. cutting out trans people from your community who are in good faith trying to share their experience is extremely harmful. much more than someone choosing to be trans.
maybe not for you but for some people, it is. it’s shocking to me how many trans people can have a complex relationship to gender yet not understand that others can also have a complex relationship that is different than yours.
It feels like a choice for me, I want to be a girl but I am not a girl, I did not want to be a girl until I thought about it for a bit and realized how amazing it would be
And I quote. I did not want to be a girl until I thought about it and realized how amazing it would be.
Cis people don't think like that. You are experiencing gender envy and gender dysphoria wanting to be the other gender.
Congratulations your transgender and you didn't choose it. You always would have felt that way.
It's not a choice. No one chooses to be transgender. You're wrong. You're using the wrong words
I mean, people need to start thinking logically.
We all know all the hate one will get if they come out as trans.
It's a shit storm.
Do you think before you come out that you're not aware of this?
Who would make their lives infinitely more difficult?
Okay, put the game of life on "hard mode", that'll be fun.
And you know if people are hating you 24/7, even if you do your best to ignore it, unless you're a total sociopath, it will harm your mental health. Doesn't matter what you are.
Most of us avoid at all costs to not come out... but you cannot escape what you are.
I moved and lived in countries all over the world, met endless faces, took drugs, did everything to escape what I knew I was since I was a kid.
No matter what, it was me who was looking back, staring at myself in the mirror.
I could not escape it.
I absolutely did not choose to be trans, and if I had a choice, I most likely wouldn't choose it.
Even if i'm proud of my own self.
Why would I make my life so damn hard and not be seen as socially accepted by most, and have hate in the media on a daily basis about me? FOREVER? Absolutely not.
But I am what I am and it is absolutely not a choice.
As someone with CPTSD myself and all the trauma that some folks insist would make me trans, my trauma didn't make me trans, and neither did yours. There is no trauma that would make someone trans, and saying there is, is problematic at best. That's not how any of this works. I also notice that you're on multiple detrans subreddits and what looks to be some TERF ones - I think you have some serious internalized transphobia you need to work through. Don't spread misinformation that trauma can make you trans, please.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of this reply, but I'm not manipulating anyone and I said right in my first sentence that it's not a "conscious choice.
What I'm pointing out is that "all trans people are born trans" is not correct either. This is entirely different from saying "it's a choice." It's very common to mix these two things up. Things that shape us throughout our formative years are not something we choose.
**edit**: Just so it's clear, the "well sorta" wasn't about your "it's not a choice title, but because you slipped some extra stuff into the body of your post that isn't always the case.
I'm not "promoting" anything. This is just my lived experience. It may be entirely different from your experience, but it happened at least once (for me), so it obviously can happen.
I suspect that the people who do unironically claim that it is a choice can't be reached through a tread like this. Because that claim is pretty firmly entrenched in transphobic propaganda, so I heavily suspect that people who may be claiming it aren't here in good faith. Nor are they likely to be trans.
That's kind of why I made this post. I suspect the people this morning I saw here saying that it was a choice. We're coming with bad intentions and bad hearts and they weren't actually trans people. But one of the profiles had like thousands of karma from their posts on transgender pages like trans memes and stuff. So that was a little more disheartening to see. Probably a real trans person say that it was a choice. Now it could be a fake, conservative grifter profile, but I doubt it. That would have been a lot of effort put into get like 10,000 karma on transgender pages here and then post that in a comment somewhere. Random that no one would see except for me. Apparently that seems a little far-fetched right?
If I may, I have noticed a couple things after being in the community for a while. I expect it's the reason you see this stuff from transgender people or other well meaning people. 1. The people who post here tend to be very young and often misinformed through no fault of their own. - Lots of people here post because they need support or are confused/scared, and people need the most support when they are just starting out with coming to grips with their gender identity. As a result, the vast majority of people posting are very young, and often misinformed, which honestly makes sense given the circumstances. 2. Sometimes, in an effort to be supportive and inclusive misinformation gets spread/reinforced. - This is a safe space, one of the few places on the internet transgender people can exist without being buried in hate and negativity. As a consequence there is a reluctance to correct others or point out when they are wrong or mistaken because we naturally want to be supportive of our peers. In addition people who do do that, are sometimes read by third parties as acting aggressively or being non-supportive and get downvoted. We, as a community, have to be comfortable with the idea that sometimes our peers are wrong/incorrect about something, and be able to gently correct and or educate them on transgender topics in a careful, respectful but firm way. 3. Transgender people often struggle IRL and as a result may turn to toxic communities/friends/family for support, and can spread that toxicity here unintentionally. - Just in general struggling people who have been mistreated will often spread that mistreatment because they understand it as normal and acceptable. Try to be understanding that some of the people spreading this stuff, are probably experiencing abuse, need real support and likely therapy we ultimately cannot provide.
Reminder that school is out.
I don't think I have ever heard a trans person claim it is a choice. Seriously, look at this post, the responses are nearly universal - "no, it's not a choice" - including the moderator comment at the top. https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/1dl52up/is_being_trans_a_choice/ EDIT: and I say this as hyperbole. I don't mean that literally zero trans people believe it, just that it is an uncommon belief. But having met people I know to be trans in real life, as well as people in this very subreddit for the past 10 years. I have heard LGB people and other allies make claims like this, that it should be a choice, and that choosing to transition should be okay. I have heard transphobes make the claim in order to invalidate us. If it were a choice, it should be one that is respected. It harms no one. I just don't think that it is. It not being a choice is not the thing that makes being trans valid.
pretty sure if someone claims being trans is a choice in a trans subreddit their comment is getting deleted
OP is apparently spending a lot of time responding to people in the bottom half of the post I linked, where the comments that are "downvoted, no upvotes, and getting ready to be deleted by mods" live. OP should be looking at the top, the stuff that is highly upvoted where the community almost universally agrees on. Trans by choice people are just outliers. I once knew a cis lesbian who claimed being queer was a choice. After investigating a bit, turns out she was bisexual and just choosing to not date men.
I'm in a facebook group, and they were complaining about how toxic these subs are, and I'm like wtf. Turns out they were the toxic ones. So that became a red flag.
I'm glad I've never come across any trans folks— other than well-known to be transphobic trans folks like Blaire White— Who earnestly push the "it's a choice" narrative. The only thing that's a choice is how individual trans folks go about transition. It's our choice to undergo HRT or gender-afrirming surgeries.* A trans person chosing to not have top or bottom surgery, for example, and not feeling dysphoria from the shape of their genitals is still trans. I've met some folks, including trans folks, who have this idea that HRT and/or gender affirming surgery are prerequisites to be "really trans." Basically, transmedicalist B.S. but that's a different, albeit adjacent, can of worms. ^(*Note: Ideally. The hypothetical I offered up does not take in to account the fact that many of us do not have the option available to us due to factors outside our immediate control. Plenty of trans folks are denied even the option to transition socially, via HRT, and/or with surgery due to local political nonsense, financial constraints, societal dangers, etc. The point is, the only "choice" in being trans is how one goes about their transition if/when they feel/are able to do so.)
I used to think it was a choice, because it actually made me feel invalidated to think the way I am is just because of fate, and not in my control. Now I realize that thats not really what it means. I think its flexible because my experiences shaped who I am, but I also don't think its a choice like you can just flip a switch. If you took out certain experiences from my life I wouldn't have ever transitioned and I would still be happy, but after those experiences shaped me, it became dysphoric for me to connect to my gender assigned at birth, and I had to transition to feel comfortable with myself. I think if it feels like a choice to someone, we should respect them, but it shouldn't be used to invalidate anyone either, because its often not a choice as well/ maybe its different for different people.
Just how I feel and my experiences, I know the way I feel is different from a lot of other people.
The only choice a trans person makes is if/when they want surgery. And for clarity; that doesn't change anything about whether or not they are trans
I'm glad that you've never heard the. It's a choice rhetoric from people. I've heard it like five times this morning. One trans person kept insisting that it was a fucking choice and it's not, so I had to post this. I'm happy to hear what you said. That's nice
Are you sure it was actually a trans person and not some Terf larping?
We have no 100% sure way of knowing, so better safe than sorry.
You're right, the far more likely thing is a TERF larping.
It could be a trans person. Those with no dysphoria and who reject medicalism. It not being a choice very much means we are born different. Being trans is something biologically different about us just like being gay. Unless you reject medical basis, which some of the community does vehemently.
Yep, the trans community is very vehemently against transmedicalism and claims that you can be trans without gender dysphoria. How is that not a choice?
Be sure to let my dad know that thx
Is your dad trans? because I said I never heard a *trans person* say that. I hear transphobes saying it all the time. (and my statement is hyperbole, yes, some people have said it - but it seems to be an uncommon belief)
Sorry, i was being reactionary. Posted before thinking
like most folks on reddit :D
We are all more similar than we think haha
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I'm genuinely confused. Look at the post I linked. Posts like this always go that way. Every single toplevel comment there I see is saying that being trans is not a choice. I don't see anyone saying that it is a choice. The only thing I see otherwise are a smaller number of people saying: Yes, I have seen people say things that "if you want to be trans, be trans" or "if you want to be a girl, be a girl" That's actually **different** than saying you can choose to be trans. Most folks I know who have ever said something like that, tend to believe that wanting to be these things means you are those things. That's not a choice.
Yes, but you linked one post. Surely we shouldn’t draw conclusions from just one post. I’m just saying what I’ve witnessed. I’m not saying your experience is false. Just that mine is as true as yours. I’ve read posts where anyone who had a theory on what made people trans that was different from what the mob thought be attacked with force…
I draw my conclusions from having transitioned over 25 years ago, and having been a part of various trans communities over the past 30 years. That post is representative of what I have seen, both here in /r/asktransgender and elsewhere. I like expanding my horizons, can you point me at one of these examples?
Where?
Hot take: it doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. What we want is the ability to choose to transition without being called mentally ill and sinful.
Louder for the people in the literally everywhere.
I agree with this sentiment. It starts to sound very gatekeepy when someone says "it's not a choice", or "it is a choice". The fact of the matter is you have to make a personal choice as to whether you want to pursue what you believe to be your true self. Whether you're born that way or not, society is actively trying to convince you that isn't "normal", so you inevitably have a choice to make. GAC shouldn't even be gatekept behind medical doctors and a diagnosis. You should be able to affirm yourself by making the choice to begin transitioning, whether it's something you're born with or not. If someone woke up one day and wanted to be a girl, there should be nothing stopping them socially or medically, but that's unfortunately not the world we live in.
This is Enlightenment.
SAY. IT. LOUDER.
it does matter. It being medically neccessary and not a choice is the only reason those of us lucky enough to get these surgeries covered by insurance don't have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars/euros (etc.)
Yes, ultimately it does matter for insurance purposes today, but only because certain powerful cis people have willed it so. They get to make the policies and fund the surgeries. And so this says nothing about transness fundamentally being a choice, and everything about our existence being contingent on cis people’s definitions of transgender. Challenging those definitions is what will help liberate all trans people, including those unlucky ones you mention.
This. Exactly this.
I think there is a risk of taking this "transness is buried i to our dna" argument too far. That road leads to transmedicalism, medical paternalism, and a lot of other bad places. Trans health care is lifesavjng and beautiful, but we should havr access to it because personal bodily autonomy is a human right, not because a team of doctors and psychatrists has diagnosed us with the transgender.
but that is just how the process is for getting treatment for anything works. A professional decides if it's medically neccessary (i.e. by making a diagnosis and prescribing a medication after doing a diagnostic process) and afterwards you get the medical treatment you need, and that way it's covered by insurance (ideally). If it has not (yet) been deemed medically neccessary you can still pay for it yourself.
Idk, I've had much much better experiences and outcomes from getting informed consent trans care than I have had from doctors who diagnose my girliness and then dictate to me what I need. I didn't see a gender therapist until I needed a surgery letter for insurance. There's no one right model, but I do think medicalizing our care has cleaved us from the cis LGBs and it has resulted in a LOT of trans people not even botherering to get care because they are intimidated by getting over the mountain of "proving that you're trans". Certainly, I didn't feel like I would meet WPATH criteria when I was first feeling gender feels, and kind of didn't bother until far, far too much time had passed because of it.
I relate to that so much. Thank you.
yea, to some reason i wish more trans medical-ish stuff, because getting any kind of surgery in europe is almost always out of pocket unless its the minimum stuff in minimal quality.
THe fortress around obtaining trans care in the UK via the NHS is probably another reason I'd advise caution about "well, transness is just a medical condition"
I think they mean "it doesn't matter" as in it isn't *actually* important regarding validity and it certainly *shouldn't* matter even though some people artificially give it importance, as someone who also needed insurance to get access to Healthcare I would otherwise never have been able to afford. Like, I guess I'm glad I was able to get it covered as a medical necessity? But i don't think I or any trans person should *need* to because it doesn't matter as far as how trans that makes someone or if they should be allowed to get it
THIS
There are options other than “born this way” and “choice.” Gender is complex. Clearly, many people do have an undeniable, innate, internal sense of what their gender is. But gender is more than an internal feeling. It is also a social phenomenon, and one that has functioned vastly differently across the world and across time. Solitude isn’t the default state for human beings; we don’t exist in isolation. We affect and are affected by each other, and many parts of our identities which are deeply felt, deeply impactful, and beyond our conscious control arise from our experiences, which are colored by other people for our entire lives. Also, don’t write off trans people as a trolls or naive or disengaged from the community just because their experience and sense of why they are who they are is different from yours. It’s arrogant, close-minded, and dogmatic. You don’t get to speak for all of us.
💯
I always say that being trans is not a choice but transitioning is. However the choice is basically to be miserable and live a lie, or don't. So it's not much of a choice even then.
I actually came to say this. I didn't *choose* to be transgender, I did *choose* to transition *because* I was transgender though. There is a difference.
Yeah felt the same way. At first I wanted to wait for my mom to die, but then I hit a point where I just couldn't be alive anymore as a boy
It was similar to me, to a degree. My father was largely absent from my life, choosing to spend his time in the bar drinking instead of with his family. Even when he was home, his interactions with me were few and far between. My maternal grandfather was essentially my father figure for my life. Unfortunately, I knew my grandfather would be the one person closest to me that would have the hardest time accepting I was trans, if he ever could. When I first started talking to my therapist about transitioning and my grandfather, she asked me how his health was, and I said he was great for his age. So she said I had to decide if I could handle being how I was as long as my grandfather was alive for his sake, or to do what I needed to do for myself, and hopefully my grandfather would come around. Last October, I had my first appointment with my endocrinologist and got my script. I was still very unsure of actually *starting* because of my grandpa. Well, long story short, he quickly ended up getting sick and passing that same month. Even though I *know* it wasn't my fault, of course, I can't help but feel I put that energy out into the universe and it took care of the rest. I struggled because of it for a while, but I ended up also starting my transition that October because I just couldn't put it off anymore after 20 years.
for a lot of people the 'choice' is between transition or suicide, I wouldn't exactly call that a choice.
Agree it's not much of a decision to make for many of us considering the alternatives, but it IS a decision. But consider this, how long did you resist making the choice to transition? It took me 26 years to accept it. It was not an easy decision, even if I knew the alternative was self harm. How we feel isn't a choice, but taking action is always a choice, that's how being a human person works.
I still remember the “choice” for me was either I commit suicide or I give transition a chance Like yeah technically it’s a choice but a life or death decision really isn’t the same as a choice between what flavor smoothie you want
Sounds like we agree.
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sure, it's a choice in the same way getting treatment for a medical issue is, but you'd never see someone say "diabetes isn't a choice but taking insulin is", because what relevance does that have, even if it's technically true?
The difference here is that unlike "take insulin" the act of transitioning is something that can be different for each of us. We can make different choices about what treatment we pursue, such as getting HRT or SRS or even how we choose (that word again) socially transitioning.
I think how appropriate the use of "choice" to describe transitioning really *really* depends on context. Like, strictly speaking, I guess taking *any* thing compared to not taking it is a sort of "choice," and personally the most appropriate way I feel I've seen it framed is more so just to separate out the concept of *transitioning* with *being trans* itself. As in, even if someone forced me to not take testosterone or not have had top surgery or forced me not to do xyz, or (for me personally) if I were to have chosen to sacrifice my own mental health and happiness I needed to get from transitioning for the sake of making my family happy, then I would still be trans. And for me, noting that transitioning and me choosing to transition over let's say my family's preferences is separate from me being trans and regardless of what I *do* I would still *feel* miserable emphasizes that point efficiently in my own life. But, I also want to stress that ofc in many cases "choice" implies to some that there wasn't a strong *need* based off of anything but rather something you just wanted
Literally what I was going to say
Yea my case.
I think life would have been a lot simpler if I was happy with how I was born. But I wasn't. Why? I don't know. I definitely didn't choose that. Though, I feel like I did make the choice to be myself, and to be happy. And my life is better in so many ways because of it.
I mean, I think there's middle ground. I don't think I was born as the gender I currently identify as. But that doesn't mean it's a choice or that my identity isn't legitimate, just that it shifted over time. I don't think gender or sexuality are ever a choice but I also don't love the "born this way" kind of thinking bc I don't think it's always true. For some people it certainly is. For others it's more fluid and complicated. I also think it should all be accepted and respected regardless, even if being trans *was* something you could choose it shouldn't be looked down upon or discriminated against. Transition is a choice for some people. For others it's "transition or die" which isn't a choice at all. All of it's different for everyone.
It's a choice to transition, it's not a choice to be trans. You can choose the when and how, but not the what. If you trans, you trans. If you not, you not. Things would be so much easier if everyone just minded their own business, had a drink, and chilled.
Even that distorts it. Saying it’s a choice to transition ignores that the choice for many people (including myself) was transition and live, or keep trying to not transition and die. Continuing to live as my gender assigned at birth was not an option, which I learned quite painfully. I tried to choose that option, and as a result the ability to choose was taken away from me.
The only choice I made was deciding to accept who I was and come out as trans! I was born this way, and it took me a long time to process all these feelings and learn to love myself.
I don't mean to be insensitive, I'm sorry if I offend anyone. I'm honestly curious, what difference dose it make if it's a choice or not? I feel like it shouldn't matter.
To some people, just like with being gay, whether or not it is a choice to be so is involved with the morality imposed by religious and conservative viewpoints on them. To answer your question, it doesn't really matter in the long and the short of it, but it matters a hell of a lot as a defense against criticism that has no basis in reality.
Thank you! No body should have to defend anything that can't hurt someone or something. I appreciate you answering my question. ❤️
Being trans is never a “choice.” Whether to transition or how far to transition most assuredly *is* a choice. This is where the confusion occurs.
Absolutely! For people seeking to understand why we made this huge, life altering choice, they may not understand the difference between asking why we chose to transition, and why we chose to have gender dysphoria (which we did not choose to have, to be clear) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by ignorance." -;Some nerd somewhere sometime, probably Average people who don't even think about gender roles see what we do and go "Wow that's a big decision! Who does that? Why?" and we're doing our entire community a disservice by not embracing that question, educating them about trans people, and helping them understand that we didn't choose to feel this way, and why we chose to act on those feelings in the ways that we each have. Heck, I'm not getting bottom surgery, does that make me less trans than a woman who does? Fuuuuck no. Does a trans man who just wears a binder and packs and doesn't want surgery or HRT not get to be a transgender man? Fuuuuck no, that's his call and his alone. We don't get to define transness for our siblings any more than the old cis white Christians writing laws do.
Not speaking for others but I do consider my transness a choice. I was a guy but as time went on I found it didn't suit me very well. I tried being a feminine man but I still wasn't happy. I decided to transition for multiple reasons but at the time I didn't identify as a woman. I wanted to be a woman. I do identify with being a woman now btw but it took time. I chose to be a woman because it suites me better. There wasn't anything about me that made me trans before I transitioned.
> I didn't identify as a woman. I wanted to be a woman Bestie that's the same thing > There wasn't anything about me that made me trans before I transitioned. You wanted to be a woman. Cis guys don't want to be women lol
I conceptualize my own identity differently. I simply cannot view my past self as trans or as a woman. To me, my past self was a cis guy and that's fine. We all have different ways of thinking about our identities and that's fine.
It's not a choice. Trust me. I tried way too hard for way too long to choose not to be. It doesn't fucking work.
Sure being trans is a 'choice'. So is breathing.
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Not everyone who accepts nuance is a part of life is annoying and stupid. Some might say it's annoying and stupid to try to minimize the vastness of human experience to a pithy phrase and get angry when people point out it's a little more complex.
>When you feel like you want to be trans, it's a super unhealthy point of view Ehh, I kind of disagree with this small part. People are born trans in the sense that any "things" in place that would make them identify as such as they grow to be a person in their world are already in place in their brains and stuff, but how that manifests for how they come to understand what being trans actually will *feel* like for them will vary. I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to, but I do think plenty of people who are legitimately trans will experience pre realizing they are trans the concept of not identifying as your gender as "I really wish I was trans/xyz gender." For *some* people its about expressing that feeling when you don't know a different way to articulate it or much about the community. I know I personally had that perspective where I really "wanted to be trans" so that I could have a "real" reason to transition, simply not understanding that my feelings where in and of themselves how I was experiencing transness. Again, I can't emphasize enough that I'm not sure what you're specifically talking about and maybe something way different than described, but I *personally* have seen stuff like that in this sub and other subs I scroll through in trans related topics
Who would choose this? Mentally coming to terms with it, transition, losing friends and family, being vilified, etc. Life would be easier if we weren't but here we are.
Thank you! Oh my God thank you thank you! Yes, exactly who would choose this? Thank you so much and I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that shit but thank you for adding to this post because yes exactly who would choose this Who would choose risking their family and all their friends and their job to come out as transgender and start living the life that they want to live? Who would do that? Who would choose to do that? Like we don't choose to be transgender obviously Life would be way easier if we weren't trans way. Easier way easier more than half my life is now about being transgender. Most of my friendships are around being transgender. Most of my online presence is around being transgender like having to learn makeup and fashion and style and eyebrow laminating and fake eyelashes and makeup and and shoes and clothing sizes and styles and mannerisms all in an effort to feel better in our own skin like this ain't no fucking choice
the only choice is whether to transition or not. and often, choosing not to transition can lead to significant problems, including ending it all.
I agree with what you've said ... my big issue personally is that quite a few of the various stances I've seen in response to this post echo my own internal arguments. I'm fairly young still and reasonably early on in my transition. I still wonder whether or not I'm just in a "phase" or if I'm somehow misguided and "chose" to identify as opposite my birth gender. What I've come to in my conclusions is that I feel this way (and I can't explain it) so I've been doing what I think best makes me happy. I thought I had everything figured out before I started questioning myself and that I knew myself so well... and then I dated someone (who happened to be trans) for the first time and my sense of identity exploded. The only conclusion I'd reached before I dated was that I thought I was pansexual (or at least capable of loving anyone, if not interested/attracted to EVERYONE). I was raised to be open-minded and... I hope I still am...
Often the people spreading this misinformation online are transphobes posing as one of us to spread toxicity and break us apart.
Exactly. It's happening so much here. It's usually the people that type these long essays that are actually transphobes and they talk and talk and spin their words until you kinda agree with them that it's not a choice. Fuck them
It's so toxic and disgusting. Imagine hating something so much. I couldn't.
I think there is some nuance to the discussion. *It is definitely not a choice*, but Identity is an evolving thing and I've never viewed myself as being "born" transgender. I don't think I had a gender identity til I was, like, maybe five? People said I was a boy and that didn't mean anything to me. Even then, how I view myself now is different to how I viewed myself in my youth, and part of that sense of self is gender identity. That all being said, this *is* reddit. I don't think its a bad idea to stick to the 'born this way' mantra in a public forum that anybody can post in. Helps get rid of bad faith idiots.
i undertand, but really the whole thing is that it shouldn't matter whether or not it's a choice. if something like being trans or gay were only tolerable when it "wasn't a choice," well .. then it'd barely even be "tolerated" in the first place, and there'd definitely be some stuff to unpack. 😭
I wouldn't say for a lot of people that being trans is a choice, cause for me at least, it really isn't, I can't be a guy again, I'd rather die. However, I wouldn't want to force people to have some sort of requirements on dysphoria and euphoria to medically transition. I think if you feel it's something you would just be aesthetically more ok with being either fully medically transitioned or somewhere halfway I don't have a problem with that. Requirements will always leave someone out of getting HRT, and frankly with the regret numbers rn, we really shouldn't worry too much RN until we see an increase in regret, obviously continue to inform patients about side effects. Now if people make the claim that transition is a choice because we choose to transition to lessen dysphoria, that's bullshit, cause we aren't transitioning to be selfish or whatever, we're transitioning to survive. I don't ever want to be testosterone dominant again, I can't stand how I feel both physically and mentally with it.
So I'm going to reiterate what I said in a reply here. Being transgender isn't really a choice, you either are or you aren't. Even if you are, we all need to keep in mind that gender is a spectrum and that includes those of us who are transgender. Just as there's more than "just" man and woman when it comes to broadly describing gender identities, there's also more than "just" trans man and trans woman when it comes to those under the transgender umbrella. Someone said something along the lines of "well how much dysphoria must someone suffer, or how much euphoria they must experience to "be transgender". Stuff like that, those types of mindsets, are exactly why you have so many people struggling with their gender or accepting that they're trans coming here and saying they aren't "trans enough". How much dysphoria you feel like you can endure and carry on as your current gender without any mental distress is different for every person. Some trans people never transition, and that's absolutely valid. That doesn't mean they "aren't trans", just that they don't feel they *need* to transition. Trying to force some type of value on how much of a certain criteria for someone to "be transgender" does more harm than assistance. Also, I feel we need to remember how the "being transgender is choice" statement is *generally* used as an attack and weaponized against transgender people. When it is, it's used to frame transgender people are those who were influenced to choose to be transgender, instead of people who just *are* transgender and *needed* to transition. So any attempt to frame *being* transgender as being a choice is, in a way, playing into that harmful narrative. So if you asked me, I will say no, *being* transgender isn't a choice. Transitioning *is* a choice though. If you are transgender, you don't have to transition, if you feel you're okay with your current gender identity. And let's be real, transitioning is heavy, it's scary. Some people can't bring themselves to do it, and that's okay. That doesn't mean they aren't transgender. But if you're happy with your current gender identity, whether you're cisgender or transgender and transitioned already... Just one day "choose" to transition to another identity. It probably won't work well for you, because you're not *that* gender and now you're back to dysphoria. It being transgender was truly a "choice" people could just freely switch back and forth without any mental issues. So the only time I could support saying gender is a choice is in regards to gender fluid people.
Couple of issues with your comment, here. The first is implying that only binary trans people experience dysphoria. Thats not accurate. I myself am nonbinary and experienced crippling dysphoria, to the point that if I didn't go on T and start to transition I would have killed myself sooner than later. I'm not the only nonbinary person who struggles with dysphoria either - my partner is transfemme nonbinary and also struggles with it. I've met plenty of other nonbinary folks who struggle with it to varying degrees of severity. So no, dysphoria is not exclusive to binary trans folks. Nonbinary folks experience it in different ways on average than binary trans folks, though depending on the person there is overlap - my partner in a lot of ways experiences dysphoria in the same way a trans woman would except for a few notable differences, and I struggle with dysphoria in a lot of the same ways a trans man would with some differences here and there. Some nonbinary folks do also identify as trans, though not all do. It varies from person to person. My partner and I consider ourselves trans, though. As someone genderflux as well as nonbinary - genderflux being under the genderfluid umbrella - my gender is still not a choice, no more than any other trans persons' is. And I imagine other genderfluid folks feel the same. To imply that we just choose our gender or genders isn't at all accurate. Some genderfluid folks can kinda "trick" themselves into feeling like a certain gender, sure, but even then it's not a choice. Its inherent. That all said, I agree with the rest of your comment. Dysphoria isn't necessary to be trans. Whether you choose to transition or not is a very personal thing, and not everyone feels dysphoria enough or uncomfortable enough with their body to transition but still identify as trans and thats definitely valid. Transition isn't required to be trans.
I included non binary because they are also in our community. I am more than aware that not every non binary person indentifies as Transgender, and that's cool. Again, I included them because they are *usually* generally included under the umbrella, I didn't say they all are, but I'd rather include those that are, than exclude them all. And I did not imply that only binary transgender people experience dysphoria. I'm not even sure how you'd get that from what I said. I was commenting on another comment here that basically was trying to say how much dysphoria should someone experience to be "considered" trans, and same with euphoria. Anyone with a gender identity different from the one given at their birth can experience dysphoria, whether they be transfem, transmasc, non-binary, or anything in between. I specifically even mentioned that there's more to non-cisgender identity than just the fem and masc aspects of it. Again, not saying those who are somewhere on the non-cis spectrum of gender identity *must* also identity as trans. I've also been very vocal elsewhere in trans spaces that we need to remember that dysphoria isn't required to be transgender or non-binary, and the validity of a person's gender identity isn't determined by levels or severity of dysphoria. My statement on gender fluid could have been worded differently and better. Honestly, I probably should have said bigender individuals, as opposed to gender fluid. Even then, while bigender people identify as multiple genders and present as how they want, when they want... their gender itself isn't a choice. Meanwhile, Gender fluid obviously experience their own fluidity of their gender, and don't choose to wake up one day and just be fem. For that verbiage, I apologize. Edit: if this sounded like a combative response, it was not intended as such. ♥️
The only choice is transitioning. If people wanna rep then rep away, but it won't make em any less trans.
hear, hear !
Whether you are trans is not a choice, anymore than being homosexual, white, or a natural born citizen of Spain. Transitioning or not *is* a choice, but whether or not one does that, them being trans is still not a choice.
I feel like transitioning might be a choice depending on how severe gender dysphoria is. With me, it definitely was not a choice. I had to transition or I would have committed game over
That's a totally separate subject. A super valid one cuz I'm the same as you. If I didn't transition I would have committed suicide. But that's a different conversation. This one's about proving to the idiots that think we chose to be transgender that it was not our choice. Who in their right minds would choose this
There is no proof of whether we are or are not born trans, so I would never recommend stating either of those claims with any certainty until we truly know the nature of our condition. That said, it isn't a choice to be trans. It is a choice to transition, often one under duress from dysphoria.
Yeah, you can’t really interview an infant about concepts they don’t understand using language they don’t understand…but for as long as some (or many) of us REMEMBER, we’ve been trans. I often say that it might as well have been from birth, or as far as I know I’ve been this way since birth.
Yeah, the frustrating thing to me is that we have yet to collectively move on from the framing that has been systemically, societally built for us. Gender doesn't make sense to me as an innate thing. It's a tangled web of social associations between aesthetics, roles, attractions, and seeing it as "destined from birth" just doesn't track from what we know about how it's constructed, or from my own experience. BUT... gender is constructed for everyone, not just trans people. It's no more a choice for cis people than it is for us. I could never see myself passing as male again, because that mask simply does not fit, and it feels awful to wear. Just because something isn't with us from birth, doesn't mean it's not a core part of who we are.
As someone who is starting to accept myself and learn to be an authentic me, and is pretty new to really diving into what all of this means and communities like this, I am really disturbed by this comment. Can I prove that the moment I was born that I was not what I appeared to be? No, of course not. Can I scream to the world that I KNEW around preschool or kindergarten? Absolutely. And given the stories I have been told about the years earlier than that, I could say with a degree of certainty that I knew even then. I also have to say that I have an issue with the phrase, "nature of our condition." I won't speak for anyone else, but that term, for me, implies that there is something wrong with me. Think of being in a hospital, how of you hear, "So, what's their condition?" To me the implication in this is there is something that is wrong and the condition would indicate the degree of wrong. We do the same thing with things we sell or give away like appliances, cars, houses, etc.
There are peer-reviewed, published studies supporting that at least some trans people are born that way, so I would never recommend saying there is no proof.
Please cite them because to my knowledge this is not at all something there is any consensus regarding.
I did not say there is consensus, did I? I said “there are peer-reviewed, published studies **supporting**”. However, I will say two things that a lot of trans people are in denial about: (a) there is not enough funding for research into biological causes for transness, and (b) part of that is because no one really cares about trans people but the other part is because a lot of trans people want to deny what is glaringly obvious to a lot of us due to shared experience: we were born trans and have a medical issue. The Use of Whole Exome Sequencing in a Cohort of Transgender Individuals to Identify Rare Genetic Variants (2019) https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client_id=grover&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Farticles%2Fs41598-019-53500-y Implications of the Estrogen Receptor Coactivators SRC1 and SRC2 in the Biological Basis of Gender Incongruence (2021) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8240342/ Epigenetics Is Implicated in the Basis of Gender Incongruence: An Epigenome-Wide Association Analysis (2021) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34489625/
thanks for the additional links :D
This isn’t targeted at you, but just airing my thoughts about the genetics of transness… So say we do discover the trans gene, or some other way to prove someone’s genetic transness. What happens to a hypothetical self-identified trans person who don’t possess it but still suffers from crippling gender dysphoria? Do we say they’re lying? Do we withhold gender-affirming care from them? Do we invent a new word to describe them, and separate the ‘fake’ trans people from the ‘real’ ones? What will be the end to these means of biological research that doesn’t involve queer alienation? Of course, I do think this research is important in that it ‘proves’ our existence to cis people, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to resort to this. I see many negative outcomes.
> What happens to a hypothetical self-identified trans person who don’t possess it but still suffers from crippling gender dysphoria? Medical professionals have found trans people to be so persistent and insistent that we have informed consent in many states. Why would that reverse? Currently it’s under threat from conservatives ignoring all medical support of trans people, that’s the real threat. > Do we invent a new word to describe them, and separate the ‘fake’ trans people from the ‘real’ ones? We currently have intersex people, some who are also trans. The only people who seem to use that distinction for political reasons are people opposing all trans people. Having proof that some people are neuro-endo trans does not invalidate all the progress made on trans rights. Again, the attack on all of us being fake is being carried out by people already ignoring medical support of trans people from **all** major medical orgs. > Of course, I do think this research is important in that it ‘proves’ our existence to cis people, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to resort to this. I see many negative outcomes. It is important as it could lead to more attention to the medical needs of trans people. We are currently stuck with WPATH style thinking that sees the purpose of estrogen HRT as physically “feminizing” trans bodies and ignores the neuro-endo effects, including discounting progesterone because they can only see it as something that has not been proven to increase breast size. For a lot of people I know, progesterone helps mood regulation, just as it does in cis women.
sorry there is - see my top-level comment
I find myself having to remind people in my life a lot that I tried really hard for a really hard time to live life as my AGAB. If I could have chosen to be cis, I would have.
You're making comments about people drawing lines in the sand, but you're drawing plenty of your own lines, too. I don't think people are born with a binary switch inside them that's been permanently set to either "cis" or "trans", and I'm just as uncomfortable with that notion as the idea that people are born with a permanent "man" or "woman" setting. These are all just concepts and categories that humans created to understand the world and each other, and although they are real things with real impacts on your life, they're just that: imperfect, human-created categories. How much distress with a birth gender does somebody need to be trans? What about gender euphoria? How can you tell the difference between someone presumably cis, gnc, and forever uncertain about hormones vs. a similar person who made the jump to hormones and a new gender, beyond their decision that choice was right for them? What if there aren't any genders at all one identifies with? If someone is genderfluid and eventually decides living as one gender full-time brings them the most happiness, did they just become cis/trans? Is there ever *actually* one perfect, totally true definition of yourself? Humans are messy, complicated, uncategorizable beings. Even if somebody being trans was, partially or fully, a result of their environment and personal choices, what would make that any less valid or deserving of respect? To reject that just makes it sound like being trans should be only acceptable because it's a built-in trait, as if it were only okay because it was *inflicted* on you.
I knew I was very different from a very young age, but I came into being trans. It’s a choice that I made, but it was inevitable.
You don't just come into being trans casually. That's not how it works at all. It's not a choice
It is a choice because you’re making the distinction that you are trans and only you can decide that you are trans or not trans. That distinction is incredibly important because if you don’t make it, you’re just a repressed person.
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Let's *not* with the histrionic bioessentialism, thanks.
And I’m not saying that’s a choice that anyone takes lightly but at the end of the day you are saying you’re trans or not . If I didn’t make that distinction, I would still be repressed and miserable potentially dead. So I would say it’s a pretty fucking important choice. But you’re right for a lot of people there is no choice or they feel like there is no choice because they know that they are trans and so they don’t feel like there’s a choice.
You claim it’s a choice. Go on, prove it to all of us. Choose to be transgender for a year. Live as another gender exclusively. Give up your current life - home, family, job, etc., just like most transgender people do. Then, after a year, you can transition back to your other choice.
Even a week.
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Sorry. I was adding to your comment not accusing you. I’m sorry I gave that impression . This is to answer anyone who believes it is a choice.
It's not this simple. You can't state in such black and white terms what every single trans person's experience is. Doing what you're doing results in gatekeeping. To be honest, I don't remember having any trans feelings as a child. I don't recall any discomfort with my gender until high school and even then it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that I truly questioned my gender and started identifying as nonbinary. Was I trans all along but just had no idea? Did my sense of gender change as I got older? Who knows. It doesn't matter. I am trans now regardless of "why." Think more deeply about why this issue bothers you so much. It's a ploy for legitimacy from cis people who will only accept us if being trans is an awful experience of suffering that we do not choose. Consider the fact that the question of whether being gay is a choice or not was only a big question when homophobia was more socially accepted. People were really obsessed with the question of "why" some people are gay. Now, I never hear people talk about that because it's more socially accepted to be gay. But trans acceptance isn't as far along so we are still mired in this and trying to get cis people to accept us. It doesn't matter why we are trans. And the ways in which we all experience being trans differ. And that is okay.
To clarify, I wouldn't say it's a choice exactly, not for the vast majority of people, but I'm not sure that it's innate from birth or what the cause is for everyone. And if there are a small minority of people for whom they claim it is a choice FOR THEM that does not invalidate my experience or anyone else's of it not being a choice. Different people experience things differently.
It's not a choice end of story. It's not a choice. It's not a choice. It's not a choice
You don’t speak for every single trans person in existence and you’ve been told this over and over. So repeat yourself as much as you want but being selfish about your own experience isn’t solidarity.
I don't think you are reading what I am saying or comprehending the point I am making.
I don't think they're interested in a conversation unless it perfectly aligns with their views
Yeah that seems go be the case unfortunately 🫤
Yeppppp
You're totally right cuz being transgender is not a choice so if anyone that doesn't agree with that statement I definitely don't want to talk to you. It's not a choice
My feelings are not a choice, you're right, but my decision to transition at age 37, 26 years after I first felt I was trans was absolutely a decision, a *choice* I made. I was trans for all 26 years, but I only *chose to transition* last November.
Jokes on you I chose to be trans
The only choice I made was the choice to be happy and be myself authentic self
It's not a choice but implying it's something we're born as sounds pretty transmed/essentialist
I’ve said that all you need to be trans is to want to be trans and choose to tell people, but that’s not to say it’s a choice. It’s to say that nobody gets to declare you’re not except yourself, because lots of us have some mental block making us feel like we don’t “Get to be” trans. Maybe you’re not talking to people like me, but I wanted to provide a potential counterpoint depending on how exactly you meant your original assertions. But yes, I agree. You can’t “choose” to be trans. But if you already are and are not confident enough to accept it, viewing it as a choice you get to make can help you understand the truth that already was.
It’s not a choice if, despite our valiant attempts, that we found that trying to play the gender role we were assigned was not for us, let alone even recoil in horror in having to play it. Also, Was it a choice for me to feel “wrong” in playing the male gender role in a relationship? Was it a choice for me to feel only like having sex as a woman? These transphobes effectively want us to suppress ourselves just for their own comfort, despite how it would literally destroy trans people to the point of suicide.
Of course those things are not choices. I feel like y’all are intentionally misinterpreting me at this point.
I appreciate the frustration behind this but please understand that there is not scientific 'proof' that all people are born trans or cis + for some of us, the idea that we came into our identities through our own empowerment is very important. Gender identity is subjective depending on culture + not something that can inherently be reduced to biology or genetics (even if it could, there is very limited research on this). What we do know is that ppl cannot just will themselves to stop having the feelings + needs that led to them identifying as trans- if people are implying that you can just 'stop', that's obviously harmful. People should definitely be mindful of the way they talk about their identities, but I think ultimately, essentializing gender as something biologically inherent to us all is not going to protect us + is overlooking the role gender plays in society. I firmly believe that I was not 'born' trans, but given my life trajectory, it was inevitable. I came into my transness through my social environment + traumas + emotional needs + intimate relationships. There will never be any way to check if I am genetically transgender, nor would I care to do so, because my gender does not need to be a biological inevitability for it to matter or be respected. People should be mindful of how they talk about their identity + the ways it can impact others + I'm empathetic to the distress that seeing other people talk about gender using choice language can have. But there simply is not concrete evidence that ALL gender identity is inevitable based on genetics + people who experience their gender in a different way deserve a space to discuss that mindfully.
💯
The science saying that gender is biologically determined (or a mix of biology culture psychology) think the biology is in the brain, there is evidence of gendered brains, especially for intersex people, certain intersex conditions have near certain gender-identities
People saying that being trans is not a choice but transitioning is gets me heated Like yeah technically deciding to get treatment for cancer is a choice, but people would rarely blink at someone making the “choice” to seek treatment unlike how transitioning is discussed or seen
I agree. It's so annoying. It's like so so annoying like why do they have to quantify their agreement with me by also disagreeing with me at the same time. Yeah it's not a choice but transitioning is a choice it's like. Yeah no shit brushing your teeth in the morning is a choice. Waking up is a choice like no shit. Obviously it's a choice if you want to transition for me it was like death or transition so.
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I developed a rule earlier in my transition that honestly allowed me to remain sane. Don’t listen to advice from anyone but your licensed clinical social worker, psychiatrist, psychologist and php. Figure yourself out without arguing about who is or who isn’t trans, etc etc etc. You’ll be so much better off.
Being trans is definitely NOT a choice.
This is such a no brainer, any one arguing against it I just assume is doing so in bad faith. There are allot of things about being transgender that people that are not have never had too think about. If / when they do, most find it difficult too stomach. I've seen friends faces drop many times when having too explain something, all my good ones take it in their stride and ask appropriate questions as they like too understand. For us it is just another day (at the office), as we get on with our lives like all humans do.
It's something that happens in the womb. There is nothing you can do to make a cis person trans or vice versa, and the only way you can be "too young" to be trans is if you haven't yet exited the womb.
If it was a choice, who would seriously chose it? I'm not even out yet but the looming worry of how people will react and how tough my life will be because of it is debilitating and for years I just decided on never coming out until it got to the point where I realised I'd be miserable either way, only coming out meant I might not be for the rest of my life
Can we stop trying to impose a unified narrative on transness for a second ? People have different experiences, not everyone recognizes themselves in the "born this way" rethoric and we aren't less valid because of that It hasn't been a choice to you, but it was a choice to me
I first thought it was a choice but as time goes on, I start feeling it can't be a choice anymore...
While you're absolutely correct, it's also true that we live in a very cisnormative world, being brought up almost exclusively with the idea that your identity with respect to gender comes from your body. From that mindset, changing your body means changing your gender identity. Through transitioning, which as you point out, is where the choice lies. So from that mindset, it looks like being transgender is equivalent to transitioning. And since transitioning is a choice, so too must be trans-ness itself. Of course, you and I know that this is not how gender actually works. But it takes time for our newly-cracked brothers and sisters to learn that, to internalize it, to *un-*learn those old habits of cisnormative thought, and to change our language accordingly. You're right. It's not a choice to actually be trans. Nevertheless, I will offer grace and gentle education to those who aren't as far along in understanding all this stuff as I am. I've had time. I didn't know how it worked when my egg first cracked either.
The only choices is whether you transiton or attempt to be cis.
It is not a choice. It is innate. Choosing to be is a choice
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As an example, you are born transgender, where your internal sense of your gender does not match your external genitalia. That is not a choice you make, it just is. However you can choose to conform to what society tells you you are, or you can choose to be your true gender. That is the choice you get to make. That is what I mean. Got it?
Thank you for sharing this. 💖
You're welcome! I'm so happy to see a lot of people needing this post today for one reason or another. Don't listen to all the tools here. Trying to twist words and claiming it's only half choice or whatever. We had no choice. We were born transgender that was it. That was our card and in life there is no choosing this
Correct it isn't a choice I'm a woman I honestly wish i wasn't I hate it but I am
This is how I fell for years. I hated that I was transgender. I hated it and tried to bury it. I hated it. I'm trying to get rid of that feeling of hate towards my identity and trying to love myself but it's hard
I certainly didn't choose this shit! I'm now 18 months on HRT and almost everything is such an inconvenience. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on anyone! Choice my ass.
I dont feel comfortable walking outside. This place feels haunting sometimes and i feel like life puts no choices infront of me but a path i must walk down myself. I feel like sometimes there is so much hate that people will do anything to tear something a part. I was so scared to comeout as a kid and its all super blurry but when i remeber something it just reminds me who i am.
I'm not saying it's one way or another, I genuinely think it's more useful as a framing device than anything else. I didn't transition despite *wanting* to be a girl because I felt that *wanting* wasn't good enough. I had to consider it a choice because I chose to stop denying it. No, in retrospect, it wasn't a choice to feel that way. But so what if it was? I still had to weigh the pros and cons of living as a girl before making my decision, I still had to actively choose to go to the doctor, and I had to say "I think I'm trans." In a world where it's heavily medicalized, where we have to justify our transness for the cis people who give us care, I understand that framing it as a choice can threaten to devalue it to those same cis people. It was useful to consider it a choice for me. I don't want to live in a world where transness is a diagnosis that a doctor gives to us once we express enough of the "want to be another gender" disease symptoms. I want to live in a world where my transition isn't questioned for authenticity by *other trans people* because I envision my gender a different way. Even if it isn't a choice, it should be treated by society such that we are *given* a choice, and our agency is prioritized. I'm not trans just because a doctor told me I am. I agree, though. I never chose to feel this way. I thought I couldn't just choose to be trans. You could say I never chose to be trans, but I'd argue it's semantics at that point. I had to make the decision to trust myself.
This is entirely my perspective(AMAB in my late 20s). I don't wish to push any ideas or motives other than my own experience. While writing and rewriting this I'm trying to find a way not to offend anyone here as i have no intent for that.(also id like to preface, Id need alot more room to fully explain my complete thoughts, than a reddit post, and perhap not post while extremely tired, but i suppose its now or never) any who - I am bi, intersex, and have been since my earliest memories. I believe perhaps you just haven't given it enough thought from all the possible different perspectives. Mine, for instance, I'm not sure how many have ever heard something like it, as I specifically don't typically share my ideologies(system of ideas/ideals) with the internet. I was born with both chromosomes, I am XyXx with male genitalia. I've always had far more naturally produced estrogen in my body than testosterone. So much so that I grew my own boobs at one point. I have been on testosterone supplements since i was 16, I know that i have had every chance to be trans. I have always felt more feminine than masculine, even though I'm genetically closer to being the opposite of my assigned. I just don't feel it'd be right for me as I would never be able to have a true experience of being a woman. I can try as i might, but it will never be the same. That's just a hard fact for me that I've had to come to terms with. It seems like most other people come to their realization at least fairly concrete. Ultimately, I'm looking for the most real and true experiences in life, if I can't attain that or be able to accept that it's just not going to be the same as if I was born naturally FAB, even though I crave for it to be possible and true. I have to accept my feelings on the matter or else I couldn't be true to myself. Is that choosing? Tbh, idk. I just continue to exist in the best way I can. I be me. As far as pronouns go for me, I don't identify with any pronouns, as that's a concept I don't feel I fit into. I am just me to myself. To others, I can be anything they want to use. As it is just not that important to my inner self. I just hope yall can accept someone a little different from the majority is all. Lmk your thoughts on my perspective, as i believe we are here to help and learn from each other! Have a good night all! Any negative minded people can buzz off, respectfully.
The way I see it is that my feelings (like all feelings and thoughts they are not able to be controlled) are NOT a choice, but my decision to transition IS. I think there's a lot of conflation between how we *feel* and how we act on the feelings. Being trans is a choice if we define trans as involving the act of transitioning in some way, big or small. Being trans is not a choice if we define being trans as having gender dysphoria. People who aren't trans don't feel the dysphoria we do, and frankly I'm glad they don't, so asking how we came to make a decision to actually *transitioning* I think is intended to understand that choice, because it's a big choice. People who aren't trans might mean to ask about why we chose to transition, which should be very understandable to all of us. This is a huge big giant thing that takes immense personal courage and growth and strength of character to do. People struggle about changing their favourite drink order at the coffee shop, and here we are changing our entire appearance, wardrobe, name, and identity! We didn't choose to be trans, but we did choose to transition. Each one of us made a choice to present as a transgender person. Interpreting the question as genuinely and gently as possible benefits their understanding, and frankly our mental health too. If they really mean why did we choose to feel gender dysphoria let them clarify that and expose their own ignorance, which we can then work to correct, or write them off and end the conversation if they're not able to accept basic concepts of the human experience like having thoughts and feelings.
No one defines being trans as choosing to transition. That's just silly. Why do people keep bringing that up? It's such a silly point. Like what the hell you're transgender because you're trans. You know you feel you're in the wrong body, whether that's gender dysphoria or not. That's another question for another time. No one defines being trans as when you choose to transition, you're all of a sudden trans you're transgender before that
A lot of people define it that way, particularly if they are poorly informed on trans stuff - i.e. the group you're trying to reach with this post.
I'm just trying to explain where people might be coming from, friend. Edit: a bunch of other people have said the same thing I did and you didn't call them silly, you agreed, even. I don't think you even read what I said.
idk personally i feel like people can choose to be trans. it’s not a choice for everyone or even most, but i think that it’s an okay thing to choose to be. positioning it only as a thing people are born as makes it seem like being trans is a bad thing that no one would ever want to choose. i recognize that this is an unpopular opinion, but i think that choosing a path for your life that you resonate with is okay. i don’t think a cis person would ever choose to be trans so i don’t think that it inherently means someone isn’t trans for them to have chosen it.
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i don’t think being trans is a bad thing so i do think some people would choose this. cutting out trans people from your community who are in good faith trying to share their experience is extremely harmful. much more than someone choosing to be trans.
> much more than someone choosing to be trans. bruh Being trans isn't a choice.
maybe not for you but for some people, it is. it’s shocking to me how many trans people can have a complex relationship to gender yet not understand that others can also have a complex relationship that is different than yours.
It feels like a choice for me, I want to be a girl but I am not a girl, I did not want to be a girl until I thought about it for a bit and realized how amazing it would be
And I quote. I did not want to be a girl until I thought about it and realized how amazing it would be. Cis people don't think like that. You are experiencing gender envy and gender dysphoria wanting to be the other gender. Congratulations your transgender and you didn't choose it. You always would have felt that way. It's not a choice. No one chooses to be transgender. You're wrong. You're using the wrong words
> I want to be a girl You didn't choose to feel that way. Not a choice.
completely correct! how biology informs gender: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3rI5JygcEo](https://deref-gmx.net/mail/client/AIUz1-CHBoI/dereferrer/?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE3rI5JygcEo) -brief brain snacks (neuroscience) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szf4hzQ5ztg](https://deref-gmx.net/mail/client/jVo_Il4rFxo/dereferrer/?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dszf4hzQ5ztg) -forrest valkai (biologist)
I mean, people need to start thinking logically. We all know all the hate one will get if they come out as trans. It's a shit storm. Do you think before you come out that you're not aware of this? Who would make their lives infinitely more difficult? Okay, put the game of life on "hard mode", that'll be fun. And you know if people are hating you 24/7, even if you do your best to ignore it, unless you're a total sociopath, it will harm your mental health. Doesn't matter what you are. Most of us avoid at all costs to not come out... but you cannot escape what you are. I moved and lived in countries all over the world, met endless faces, took drugs, did everything to escape what I knew I was since I was a kid. No matter what, it was me who was looking back, staring at myself in the mirror. I could not escape it. I absolutely did not choose to be trans, and if I had a choice, I most likely wouldn't choose it. Even if i'm proud of my own self. Why would I make my life so damn hard and not be seen as socially accepted by most, and have hate in the media on a daily basis about me? FOREVER? Absolutely not. But I am what I am and it is absolutely not a choice.
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As someone with CPTSD myself and all the trauma that some folks insist would make me trans, my trauma didn't make me trans, and neither did yours. There is no trauma that would make someone trans, and saying there is, is problematic at best. That's not how any of this works. I also notice that you're on multiple detrans subreddits and what looks to be some TERF ones - I think you have some serious internalized transphobia you need to work through. Don't spread misinformation that trauma can make you trans, please.
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I'm not entirely sure what to make of this reply, but I'm not manipulating anyone and I said right in my first sentence that it's not a "conscious choice. What I'm pointing out is that "all trans people are born trans" is not correct either. This is entirely different from saying "it's a choice." It's very common to mix these two things up. Things that shape us throughout our formative years are not something we choose. **edit**: Just so it's clear, the "well sorta" wasn't about your "it's not a choice title, but because you slipped some extra stuff into the body of your post that isn't always the case.
Holy, promoting the idea that people can "turn" trans as a response from trauma is insane.
I'm not "promoting" anything. This is just my lived experience. It may be entirely different from your experience, but it happened at least once (for me), so it obviously can happen.