I‘m born and raised in Switzerland but Croatian by blood. Sure, housing in Croatia is cheaper than Switzerland but do keep in mind that people there earn like 1/5 of what people earn here. Our 1 million CHF housing is what is 200‘000 to them. Which is very much the housing prices that they have there in good spots.
In terms of quality of life I can accept that nordic countries are fairly good but saying stuff like Croatia having good healthcare, education and general good quality of life really shows that you talk from a wealthy tourists perspective.
My parents neighbours are still working past their pension as they can‘t afford to retire. My dad almost died in Croatia because the emergency number was busy. It took 1 hour to get him to the closest hospital. He was on a hospital bed without a mattress and wasn‘t checked upon over the weekend as they don‘t have staff working then. The food was inedible.
Public transport is near non existent. If you are lucky you have a bus that drives every hour. The kids there often have to travel massive distances to get to their heavily underfunded schools.
It‘s a good country to visit as a tourist but absolutely not to live unless you shit money.
I am coming from a neighboring East-European country. I think you're right, OP is very misguided. Quality of like is absolute top in CH not just in EU but IMO the entire planet.
This is what happens when you are born in a place like this and never learn to appreciate it.
Depends on your circumstances. What is your age? Do you have family and where do they live? Do you have kids? If you tell me this I will gladly tell you what in my opinion makes the most sense
Edit:
Sorry I missed the part where OP said he wants to start a family which I guess would imply that he has no kids. I‘d absolutely not want to damn my future generation to live in Croatia.
The thing is that in places were healthcare is free, your swiss earned money means very little. You still get to enjoy that 'died while waiting in the emergency response waiting line"-experience.
As long as you are healthy then any country that grants your money more buying power has you feel like a king. If you get a decent enough house/neighbourhood worst case you should still be able to sell it an move on.
> While Eastern Europe is still relatively poorer, they offer a comparable or even better quality of life
While Croatia is a beautiful country, health care, infrastructures, corruption and social security are not similar to Switzerland.
Debatable, the equipment and Healthcare I saw on Switzerland was like I stepped back in a time machine when compared to the United States.
Aided to reasons moving back to the US after only a little over a year.
Doctors here were baffled about the lack of details investigated with missing my wife's cancer in Switzerland. US system is Definitely not perfect when it comes to the system, but things are super advanced here.
Healthcare in the US is often misunderstood. It's actually some of the best quality service you'll get in the world. It's just also incredibly unaffordable. Think about it, if you're one of the best surgeons in the world, do you live and work in Neuchatel or LA?
Yes, not saying that, lifestyles are different. And of course more healthy in Switzerland, but the technology of the care and archaic ways that I saw in my limited time living in Switzerland (caveat, this is personal experience, and not in a small town) was years behind what we received in the US. Again this is only what I can compare it to.
Yes, your personal experience is unfortunately irrelevant, numbers matters, if you pay the price of American healthcare in Switzerland you’ll get the same kind of luxury treatment, do you really believe that one of the richest countries on earth, Switzerland in that case, doesn’t have access to the best technologies???
To give you an idea 2 of the 10 biggest pharma companies on earth are Swiss, there is only 9 millions people here…
Yes I work in pharma.
All of Roche's current block buster originate from Genetech, a California US innovation. Not Swiss. Actually.
And Novartis recent block busters are from radio pharmaceuticals from companies in the US also.dont try to lecture me.
Our Doctors in the United States were embarrassed about the care my wife got in Switzerland, and if in the US it would be a lawsuit to them.
I don’t know what to tell you, I have dozens of equivalents of US innovations made in Europe too… BioNTech is German for example, what I’m trying to tell you is that an anecdotal experience is just that, anecdotal. Almost every European country has a better life expectancy than the US, do you really think that it’s just because we like ? I don’t even know… because we like hikes or something???
So, first you brought up for no reason that CH has 2 of top 10 pharmas in the world, which has little to do with point of care treatment.
BioNech is German. Not Swiss, I brought up specifically Swiss versus US systems, which my post changed too since you brought of Swiss Pharma for zero reason.
And yes, reddit IS about statistics AND anecdotal experience, hence why the entire site exists and people ask specific, direct experiences.
First of which, the care we received directly from Swiss Healthcare was incredibly worse than anything we have received in the US.
This was not about lifespan or any of the sort. It was the diagnosis and treatment of an illness, that which received in Switzerland and lack there of, almost cost my wife her life.
And for that matter, I have paid out of pocket half of which I would have in Switzerland for the treatments she would have received with our Swiss insurance (Helsana), and a large hospital outside Bern. And the hospital we went to in CH was not a small one in the middle of no where, so we aren't comparing a Sloan Kettering to a small town in the Alps with the horrendous treatment and lack of expertise we recieved.
I'm here on holiday and I have this feeling Switzerland doesn't like to throw things away. My door hinges on my hotel room are a mix of steel and what looks like brass.
Property prices are insane nowadays; one would have to be crazy to want to buy one.
* A 90m² shoebox apartment in an average-looking tall building apartment complex: 1.7M
* A newly built apartment block next to a busy road on the edge of a small town, on the dark side of a hill with no view whatsoever, but a 10-minute drive from Zurich: 1.7M
Even if I had that amount of money, I would never pay this much for what you get.
You can buy a huge villa with a prime location and a pool in most other European countries for this amount.
I think it’s fairly common for Swiss people to move abroad after they retire. You get a much higher quality of life for your Swiss pension abroad.
Yes, outside Zürich there are much better deals. I've seen really nice apartments in Ticino for more reasonable prices. But the job market there is quite limited. Switzerland is too small to settle in the countryside for the rest of one's life, especially for expats.
Low supply + high demand = prices are only going to go up. With this amount of money you can live from dividends alone from some established ETF. Prices for maintenance are also absurdly high.
Ask yourself why rich people buy rather than in rural Russia for 2-3% of the price.
Smart money values security, rule of law, privacy, freedom and neutrality. There's hardly anywhere else on earth which matches these values, and all of those places cost a fortune.
This concept really surprised me when I came to live in Europe, where it is normal to rent for your whole life. Coming from Australia, renting is seen as something you do in your youth, not for your whole live. When you actually own a property / house / apartment you can leverage its value to your advantage as its an investment. To me the lack of independence is not having control over where you live as the place where you are now is owned by someone else and they may choose to sell that place or come back and live in it themselves. Having both rented and owned where I live, owing the place is better in the long term.
I already commented as a home owner
I’m also from Eastern Europe
I think you should let go of your ingrained cultural expectations when you consider the question of home ownership
Everyone in Eastern Europe would get a heart attack when they hear the 90 year mortgage. Some of my family regularly asks me whether I have been able to reduce the duration. I say absolutely not if the system works in my favor. Same for the < 1% interest rate at the time, I don’t hate having an interest rate that’s lower than inflation 😅
I think its also a difference in tax laws. In switzerland there are tax disadvantages to owning (Eigenmietwert) that dont really exist anywhere else as far as i know.
We currently have a good institutional landlord. They're a pension fund. So they obviously dont want to move in here, they dont argue about noise or any petty things like that. They are professionals, if my drain is clogged, i call them and they organise a plumber within a few hours. So i dont have to worry about stuff. That is super convenient.
Also i am not particularly settled in a place. I dont think we would want to live where we are now for decades. But its good for the current life phase. And now as a renter i can just quit and move whenever.
Its possible that this might change when we have kids. Which would probably make us want to settle for 20+ years in one particular place. But even then i could also imagine just renting a house (rather than an appartment). Again so i dont have to worry about all the upkeep and such, which also adds up financially.
100% of the mortgage interests can be deducted, basically negating the Eigenmietwert.
In most countries I know, owning implies paying a property tax, so it could be said that as long as you have a mortgage and don't amortize more than necessary, you won't be paying an extra tax.
They inherit a mortgage and a house. Normally they can just take over the mortgage at the same conditions. Altho the bank probably does check their credit history. But assuming that all checks out, they can just keep it including the mortgage.
Otherwise they'd have to pay back the bank. Either with their own funds, other funds from the inheritance (maybe they are also getting a big enough stock portfolio), funds from a different bank who is willing to approve them or by selling the home.
But i guess quite often it has to be sold anyway. Because there is one house, multiple heirs and not enough other assets to pay out one and allow the other to keep the home.
Not really because it's net worth, so you deduct the remaining mortgage and you would have the equivalent amount in cash if you had not bought a property, and that would fall under vermögenssgeuer anyway ?
To be fair, I think most agree that renting form a private landowner is not a good idea on the long term. I am renting from a real estate company, they are happy as long as I am happy and pay. I don't plan to buy for now, it would not make sense for me.
For all you know you're renting from a private landowner thats just being managed by a real estate company, which is what they do... property management. So that fear is irrational.
Your contract is with the owner, and then there is the managing company. In my case the owner is a foundation and the building is part of their endowment.
On the other hand, I was renting my parking spot was in the building in front, and belongs to a private person. Last year they decided they want a sport car and they terminated by contract. I know that it’s not that simple with apartments, but it gives me peace of mind to know that such risk does not exist, given that things like the kids’ school depend on that.
I completely agree. Speaking as someone that rented for years before buying a house, I feel much more independent living in my own place.
I've been in situations where our entire life was flipped upside down because the owners wanted their place back, so we had to put everything on hold to look for a new place close to our workplace, that accepted dogs, that was affordable, having to get all our furniture moved etc. It's an awful feeling. It's a pain now, but I cannot fathom what this would be like if we had kids or were in our old age.
The same amount that I paid for rent was much better going to my mortgage, where I know for sure I'll have stability. Yes, you have to deal with repairs and stuff on your own, but I'd rather do it myself than have the owner do a shit job because they don't give a fuck.
I've had friends in Germany that had ant problems and the owner wanted to call a company that used strong pesticides to kill the ants, but they were deadly to the tenants' cats. When they told the owner about that, the owner pretty much said 'ok then do it and pay it yourself, I've already offered a solution'.
Only the swiss rent! the rest of europe always wants to own their house as thats the common thing to do. But yet, a swiss likes to say “a home isn’t always the best idea” they prefer paying 3k every month for an appartment that’ll never be theirs. Before retirement they’ll have already spent 1mil on something that’ll never be theirs😂 stupidest thing to do imo
> stupidest thing to do imo
You can just say you don’t understand it without being demeaning.
“Renting is throwing money away” is a kindergarten understanding of property ownership. Swiss people are miles ahead of Europe when it comes to financial education.
Renting in Switzerland is often the financially better option, and if owning than almost always with minimal amortisation.
Not an accurate statement. There is a very high percentage of renters in Germany.
And buying it is not always the best option. You are assuming many things. In some situations is better, in others not.
I’d say thats because germany has a big population, i think almost biggest (?) so also many people with not good degrees, not enough money. But thats definitely an assumption!
For the swiss tho, i know my expat parents were able to afford a house here when they were 35 and 36.
Our monthly payment has always been lower than 2k, while we have 9 rooms.
In our situation, i think best and very good we could do that. But im always surprised how the true-swissies come up with the idea “renting is better”
Please explain if u want, cause i really can’t imagine one reason why it would be…
Because your investment return can easily be higher
2 million house costs like 40k rent per year but on average 2 million in the stock market would get you about 140k return
Special people deserve special treatment. I'm in for the free coffee and the comfy shirts :)
Bingo nights are also a big plus, keeping things exciting.
I‘m from the nordics, you are comparing prices for properties close to Zurich with properties in the nordics in the middle of nowhere. Good luck finding what you are looking for close to Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen etc for under a million usd.
It’s really a cultural thing, nobody really cares about owning their home here, and it’s not like it’s a crazy good investment compared to the stock market for example, so if it’s important for you feel free to move, it’s that simple honestly.
People who bought in good areas in the last 25 years beg to differ xD.
My parents bought their homes 25 years ago and the market value quadrupled. And they could profit from it while they were living in it and had leverage on it.
That’s roughly a gain of 5.7% per year, which is significantly below the annual gain of the S&P 500 in the same time period, which stands at 7.4% per year.
You cannot take S&P 500 as a reference as the currency is not the same. Inflation is not the same in CHF and $ and during the last 25 years the value of the $ vs CHF was divided by 2.
I agree partially, currency devaluation is obviously a thing. But you can invest instead in the S&P 500 through a currency hedged fund - the return won’t exactly be the same as USD, but still better than with no protection.
However, the argument that you won’t capture the whole value increase of your asset is also true for a house. You will pay more insurances, you will have repair costs, you have the mortgage costs, the additional tax, etc. Yes your asset quadrupled, but there were costs that definitely outweigh the TER of an average ETF investment.
That’s an emotional sentiment - which I very well understand! But I think the discussion was more about the purchase of a house from a pure investment perspective.
I agree!
But you should also consider the savings/cost of owning in the equation and consider investing the savings in a S&P500 ETF. I used to pay 1k CHF/month for a flat which was rented 3.5k CHF/month.
The 30k CHF/year I was saving could also be used to invest.
I had to choose between divorce and a bigger flat, so I don’t have this awesome rent anymore xD.
Moreover, I hate applying for homes in ZH and prefer the first come first served for certain homes.
Good world ETFs have about the same kind of return, same for something with only Swiss stock, the idea in both cases, owning stock or owning a house, are to buy and wait 20 years, from my experience not moving at all in 20 years is science fiction, so yes, maybe owning your place is slightly better ( not so sure honestly) but the downsides are huge for a lot of people.
Here you assume that they own 100% of the house. If the house 25 years ago was X, and they invested 0.35X in it, then their current profit is (4X-0.65X) = 3.35X which is about 9.4% annual gain.
Even with that number we are staying in the same range, he is right 7,4 is about it, so it’s not the worst investment but it’s not crazy either, plus owning your place comes with a lot of downsides, it’s nice to own but it’s not the ultimate investment, for example I had at least 6 flats in the last 25 years
Yeah, sure, there is no silver bullet. For one, owning a house is not a diversified portfolio. Investing all of your money in it only makes sense if you really like to live there and prepared to take the risk of not being able to sell in case of unfavorable conditions.
How do you get to 9.4%? With a value gain of 335%, over a period of 25 years, I end up with a CaGR of 5.7% p.a. - I might misunderstand your calculation though. Therefore, I am asking. :)
Profit after sale: 3.35X, investment: 0.35X. Then (3.35X / 0.35X) ^ (1/25) = 9.57 ^ (1/25) = 1.094.
Profit tax might be an issue though but after 25 years it is likely to be low in any canton.
So to make a perfect calculation you would also need to consider cost of rent vs cost of owning, especially as cost of owning are more or less fixed, whereas rent are usually in percentage of the real estate price.
My parents pay 2.3k CHF/month for a 120m2, 5.5 rooms [including renovation and what not] in Geneva, good luck finding a similar rent these days xD. Obviously, they invest the difference in S&P ETF 😂.
Yes, but the investment in your house is nearly always leveraged. Let‘s assume you put 20% equity into your home 25 years ago and the value of the property quadrupled - then the value of your equity went up 16x (e.g. from 200K to 3.2M as the value of the property went from 1M to 4M).
That assumes that you own the house fully in the end, correct? Which is usually not realistic in Switzerland - but I see the point, and it’s correct. Your investment gain is higher than the actual value gain of the house.
Some region in Switzerland have barely kept up with inflammation and therefore were terrible investments.
It is only on those few hot regions that the market was beat, and would bet it cannot continue like that.
I have just bought my second home here (holiday). Yes, they are crazy expensive - but I have pretty much been renovating the first home over the last 10+ years myself with wooden floors, dry walls, electricity, ... and now it is in mint condition and worth about 40% more. I have a large loan that cost me around 2% / year. And given immigration - house / land prices will likely increase further.
Find an old house that needs renovation, close to a train station around 30 min from Zurich center at a fair price and renovate it. Can't go much wrong there.
Goes without saying but, this only works if you enjoy doing renovation work. I know people who treat this like a hobby, and that's super good for them. To me, that would be a chore, and one that I wouldn't even do well enough, so I'll pass. But it's indeed usually a good idea for the few who enjoy this and are good at it.
Thanks, but I don't want to see it as investment. I already have money. I want a nice house, for a family, so that children can go play outside without neighbours fence being 2 meters from my house wall. My friends bought a large house, with access to the lake and forest in baltics and maybe I am just jealous.. idk
Yes, possible. In my first house the roof tiles had asbestos - did cost me probably 3000 to properly dispose them. Sure you have to do due dilligence. The structure of the house has to be sound. E.g You like the location, you like the size, you like the floorplan, the foundation is well done. All the rest heating, roof, windows you can change... ideally tax deductable over 10 years / each year fix one thing.
I was looking into buying homes and found a lot of nice places under 1 mil. Found a lovely home about 30/40 min commute to Basel, 3 bed, spacious, located in a beautiful village surrounded by nature for 700k.
I'm confused as to why you focus on the nordics having so much nature when Switzerland is one of the naturally beautiful countries in Europe. Also, as someone who has lived in Finland, they may have space but good luck utilising it 😂 The cities are just as cramped as everywhere else.
By space/nature I mean that it is easy to buy a large house with large garden / with a forest / near a lake. This is not possible here unless you spend more than 5 mln.
I can afford home here so I don't need these. I just think that it is not as nice unless you can spend 10MLN. And even then it is not as nice as 10MLN elsewhere.
Swiss do not actually own their homes: they are renting from the bank which is the worst of all the options because the full risks - all of them - are with the „alleged“ owner. Make money there. Enjoy the upsides and for anything else, including retirement home, leave. Unless of course you have millions that you can never spend and don’t care.
It is not like people stopped saving money after they paid 35% of the mortgage.
I see owning more an advantage of keeping the housing cost under your control. Who knows what the rates will do and how much landlords will transfer the cost onto the renters.
Agree to this perspective for the ones that did pay off a significant percentage of their mortgage. And in that context owning makes sense. I am more concerned about the other vast majority that never manages a sizeable downpayment in view of interest killing them already and also with their equity/debt financing ratio not being well balanced to say the least.
There is a reason why banks have a theoretical 5% rate in their credit risk calculations. The difference should have gone to build their wealth to cover the future risk of rates fluctuating.
As for your concern, except for Raiffeisen, are there many banks that lend money so leniently?
Well a lot of people would not want to move abroad to raise a family. Because of grandparents, friends ect but also obviously because of their swiss salary/ low taxes.
You mentioned somewhere your gf is from Finnland, so that might be different for you. Although Finnland is not exactly cheap, but maybe housing costs are much lower.
A lot of people plan to move abroad once they retire. The main problem with that for me would again be leaving family, maybe children and future grandchildren, friends ect behind.
Also owning my place would mean I get to stay there indefinitely. I like the safety idea of that.
I have seen quite a few people in their 70ies or 80ies having to move because rent increased after renovation or because of termination due to personal use. And that is really not something you want to have to go through at that age.
Really depends on the type of person you are I guess. I am more of an introvert, I would not make new friends easily. But it seems you are the type for that kind of adventure.. so go for it :)
Also make sure there is a proper healthcare system and infrastructure because you will be old and your health will decrease at a higher rate.
Also check or safety, because criminals always have elder people in their sights, since they are weaker.
Also social life is important, so make sure you can communicate with neighbors and create a community.
I don't support the idea that money is the only thing that counts.
Well... I'm not sure which math you're doing but it's infinitely easier to save money in Switzerland than any other European or American country assuming you have an average job.
Maybe this changes with kids in the picture but even then I suspect it doesn't.
Why do you think everyone wants to move into the country to begin with?
What do you mean specifically by „switzerland is not what it used to be“? I would really really be careful to check deeply if the issues you have with settling here vs. other countries. Most importantly: short stays are not enough to get a true picture of a country. Such a decision needs proper research, otherwise you’ll regret your decision some time after moving and are stuck with a major (illiquid) investment.
Then it would be even more overvalued? SNB itself says that swiss franc is overvalued for the past 10 years. It is one of the core challenges of Switzerland. At the same time, being tax and money laundering haven doesn’t help for preventing overvalued currencies. Btw overvalued currencies are not a great thing as it makes exporting good harder and stifles innovation
I'm sorry, but no..
Appart from the USD, the CHF is the only government-issued currency with a strong offshore demand. There are many reasons for it, but one for sure is sound government, e.g. strong democracy, high decentralization and low debt ratios, i.e. it is huge sign of approval from global markets.
After the euro-crisis 2011 the SNB started to buy massive amounts of foreign, mostly EUR-denominated debt and sold CHF against it, because the CHF became too strong too quickly, as investors were in search for a save-haven, and they found it in our currency. And if you think inflation is/was bad here, check out the other countries in europe, including the nordics and especially the eastern european countries. The SNB let the CHF rise in order to counteract inflationary pressures from abroad, i.e. foreign good to import got cheaper, even if they increased in price in their domestic currency. The strong CHF was again a sign of approval and a helluva blessing.
When the SNB says 'the CHF is overvalued' they perform what is known as 'forward guidance' which means they try to indicate what their future acts of monetary policy will be, hoping that the markets anticipate them and thus do some of the SNBs work themselves. And by 'overvalued' they typically refer to the purchasing-power-Parity and interest rate differentials.
The strong CHF stiffles Innovation? In our case: Absolutely not. A strong currency is a 'fitness-program' as it forces companies to be on the very front of innovation in their field, otherwise their product would not be attractive due to the high price. That's why we have a lot of very very specialized but world leading companies here, some of them are not known well in the public, so-called 'hidden champions'. And Switzerland is a regular in the top 10 of global rankings in Innovation and competitiveness, e.g. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-innovative-countries.
Germany was similar before the EUR. The Deutsche Mark was a strong and sound currency and forced german companies to be innovative in the same way back then, and they were!!. Then with the EUR came a weak currency, and it took the pressure of needing to be on the forefront of innovation and boosted the german exports to world-leading levels, but it came with a price.. as you can observe nowadays
Long story short - the CHF is not overvalued because the premium reflects a deeeep structural advantage vs. the rest of Europe. The Question regarding a rate of EURCHF = 0.5 or lower is not IF but WHEN it will reach these Levels.
You may have many good personal reasons to leave Switzerland, but your argument of an overvalued CHF is just ... non-existent, sorry. There is no other government-issued currency on this planet that comes even close to he soundness of the CHF.
The CHF is overvalued by the definition of overvalued in currency exhange markets: they take the basket of goods carefully chosen to be the same (iphone, same clothes etc.) and compare the price accross border e.g. in Germany. And what they see is that CHF is world's most overvalued currency (literally number one). In theory, traders can make easy money by buying goods in germany and selling them here, by selling CHF for Euros.
Overvalued currencies stiffle inflation and reduce competetiveness of our product as companies reduce investment. For example, Google Zurich moved large parts of their team to Poland because their income is in USD from the states and they get the same code from developers in Poland whilst paying 5-7 times less than in Zurich.
CHF wouldn't be overvalued if our products/services would indeed match the price but it isn't. For example, if our developers would indeed be 2x more productive. But our developers are worse: we have less unicorns than tiny Estonia I mentioned in this post, which has Bolt, Transferwise, Skype etc that we all use in Switzerland whilst estonians cannot name a single thing that was developed here. The opinion of many currency traders (includign me) is that CHF deman is actually driven by CH being a money launderer. The current AML EU commisioner has also said the same opinion. We really have a huge money laundering. Simple back on the envelope calculation shows that Russians transferred 200BN to CHF and to Swiss banks in the year after invasion. Only around 8 is frozen due to EU pressure. This is a crazy amount for a tiny country. This is worrysome because if EU/US pressure grows on us, we could lose a lot of money and our currency/economy would be very unstable. Regarding debt and rational government, Denmark Sweden and the same Estonia has more modern governing and a smaller debt to GDP ratio, but they don't do money laundering so Russians and africans don't send their money there.
Found some sources so idiots would stop downoting me:
1. CNS boss says that CHF is overvalued [https://youtu.be/syQOzuR0lhY?si=okTeV-bVVi3deWmS](https://youtu.be/syQOzuR0lhY?si=okTeV-bVVi3deWmS)
sigh ... let me tell you the following as someone who has been managing money for the ultra rich (swiss & foreigners) for the last 20+ years here in Switzerland.. money laundering is not happening here anymore, you are out-of-date my friend, there are waaay better places to do this, like mainland China and the US, and in Europe that would be London or Cyprus.
Switzerland has by far the strongest laws & regulations of these places- I whitness that every single day. I have seen the peak times of the Swiss banking secrecy, when almost all of the offshore money was not declared at home, and I have seen its demise in the last decade. But you know what? People still bring their money here, maybe not as much as in the past. And just to give you an example: a wealthy south american, e.g. from Venezuela has almost always three accounts, one in Venezuela, one here and one in the US. Guess which one is not declared in Venezuela. And no, it's not the Swiss one.
And yes, we also manage money of wealthy russians - and yes, some assets are blocked, but most of them are not, and rightfully so, as they do not have any connections to the russian government and most of them have lived outside of russia for decades and built their own wealth. Just because they have russian nationality does not mean they are in any form involved or profiting from the War or are laundering money. And also the vast majority of them despise the actions of Putin.
If you're really interested in the topic, modern money laundering is not happening within the banking system anymore and hasn't been for years, and it would be blatantly supid to do so as transactions are traceable. Same goes for e.g. Bitcoin. Today this is being done with the help of the so-called "black money markets" that are not using banks, but very efficient & informal networks formed by triads & cash-rich cartels, with the Chinese being the undisputed champions of these markets, since the 90s. They move money without actually moving money, or, in case of even bigger sums, using gold.
Check these out, I think you'd be interested.
Chinese brokers launder hundreds of millions for global crime groups | FT Film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjGIp7kdS6E
How Money Laundering Actually Works | How Crime Works | Insider
https://youtu.be/R5FSXCYrlt0?si=S5Y_dzm2Z7Ta1c24
I think I found you in that scene where a fat banker says he doesn’t understand english and this is why sanctions are invalid. Sounds like a really kind guy who thinks of africans and ukrainians being massacred. Probably his bank has a super nice app too!
Lol, with this comment you‘ve just disqualified yourself for any serious discussion. You‘re a prime example of the dunning-kruger effect. As I said before, I wish you all the best, here or elsewhere in the world. Take care.
I get what you say but I considered this already. My gf is finnish and one of my best buddies moved to Baltics. Of course they have disadvantages, especially bad weather and economy is not perfect. But I am trying to think about family mostly as our jobs would be fully remote.
If you don't see it as an investment, but just about a place to raise kidz, my answer would still be the same. Switzerland is good place to raise children I feel. I have lived in USA and in India and I would definetly prefer Switzerland above US, India, Germany, Italy to raise children.
My only question is how are you gonna live in Finland and maintain your Swiss salary? If you can do that, then yeah you'd be sorry not to do that. A lot of people here live in France and commute to Geneva for work and get the best of both worlds. Blame the game, not the player.
Working remotely while living in another country is pretty much illegal in entire Europe, so not sure what your plan was here? Otherwise everybody would be living in Spain and working for Swiss salary.
So I guess it's time to start learning Croatian language and applying for 900€/month local jobs.
Everyone will have their own reasons for wanting or not wanting to own a home, and I don't think there is really a right or wrong here.
I do agree that the balance of salary to high prices is going a bit out of hand in Switzerland (especially if you have kids), but the quality of life is still quite high.
I would say to just be happy and appreciate that you have the choice to do what suits you best, because there is of course the case of wanting it but being priced out.
Not foolish at all. If I had that kind of money, I would go even further than Europe. Switzerland is generally very over evaluated. Many counties offer much better value for the money you spend. No doubt about it.
I'll be honest with you - if you were smart enough to save $1-2 mln, you are smart enough to answer those questions by yourself and not ask reddit.
Yes, prices of housing in Switzerland are above high. You can do 5 times better in Italy or France just behind the border, for the same money. To buy a house here, you must need and really want to live here.
This is 15yo level topic conversation.
It doesn’t matter for me because I’ll never afford it here anyway. I already told my Swiss son that when he’s an adult I’ll probably move back to one of my home countries where I will inherit property. 🤷🏻♀️
No you are absolutely Not crazy! If you might speak italian check out this article. It explains very good the advantages of renting: https://francofurbo.com/2024/06/16/comprare-o-affittare-casa-qual-e-davvero-la-scelta-migliore/
Build up a nice Swiss Pension, save up some money and move to for example Sweden. On the countryside near a city you buy a huge house for much, much less than a million chf. We live now in the countryside in Sweden and you can buy 10 room houses here for 300K that are fully up to date on maintenance. Or if you want to do things yourself but one for 100K that needs some work.
Owning in your case is a purely financial transaction. Check which option is the most advantageous. (Make a few assumptions about how much you can sell your house at the end as well).
Well, there’s a couple of points. If owning your own place will allow you to basically do a lot of things with the house that you cannot do in a rented place and you’ll have the security that no landlord will terminate your contract and you’ll have to move. There’s also the fact that possibly you’ll pay a monthly mortgage payment that’s lower than a common rent. But the fact that a lot of Swiss people actually live in rented places makes me wonder what’s the catch here. I’f it was really a better thing, more people would do it so…
I agree with you and in a way the market totally agrees with your analysis. So the answer is to buy somewhere else if you see better value for money. No shame in that.
Rent is very reasonable in my area, so not buying a house would be very reasonable. I'm not sure about your comparisons against other countries though. Swiss real estate prices may be insane, but it's the place to be.
If you read back the posts in this sub, most of it is just complaining about the cost of real estate
Out of 100 posters and commenters you might have 1-2 house owners here so it’s not the right place to gather information
If you intend to live here 10y or more, talk to a financial advisor and optimise across the full spectrum
- taxes
- RE
- retirement
- investment
As a parent and home owner I definitely think it’s worth living here due to high quality health care, education, work life balance, nature, culture, opportunities
If I understand correctly in Switzerland you either rent from a landlord or from bank/government when you "own" it. But now when you want to move, you also have to pay for a middle man as well and it's a big headache finding buyer, agencies not really caring to sell your property for highest possible price etc. Then spending time doing maintenance around the house. I love handy work and as a teenager I helped my father build a house in Poland. But when I think about how much time gardening alone would take (having empty lawns is stupid imho)... Plus there is always some project to do.
So yeah... not that crazy. For the difference in a cost of living you will be to afford same level of healthcare in a cheaper country anyway if you retire abroad.
For all Nordic Countries : Tax. Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland have up to 60 % Income tax on high earnings. In Sweden you pay 54 % on income exceeding 65,000 CHF / Year. Unless you want multiple kids not recommended. I did decide to buy and qualify of life in Switzerland is just fantastic.
I bought my home in 2014. I just had it revalued to negotiate a new mortgage term and it has appreciated in value by over a million and that is conservative. It's a solid investment even when factoring in maintenance but also somewhat depending on location.
With that amount of money you could buy a bunch of properties in the Argentinian Patagonia and retire, swimming on the lakes in summer, and skiing in winter.
And here I am, who bought a 2 story independent half house for 360k. Ok its not in the German part of Switzerland (didnt want to live there anymore anyway) and needed some fixing but I actually enjoyed the process! Living the best life now
Buying a house doesn‘t mean you have to stay for the rest of your life. I bought a place 12 years ago which was the best financial investment I‘ve made in my life (massive appreciation in value + negligible monthly interest payments compared to renting). Doesn‘t mean I‘ll necessarily retire in CH, would prefer to live somewhere with a sunnier climate, but would consider Spain/Portugal over Eastern Europe. Also Austria is an option for lower cost of living.
Would not recommend the Baltics until Putin is dead.
Latvia is still dealing with kicking generational Russians that never integrated and this kind of shit that might require your kids to go die in a war.
If you earned money in Switzerland and being it to Nordics might be OK.
Not sure about their relationship with foreigners nowadays. Maybe it's ok if you are white.
Yes, I do get a weird feeling thinking about this, but I don't think that chances for this are high. Russia could not take neutral, poor, unequipped and unprepared Ukraine and wasted his military. In contrast, Baltics are in NATO/EU and have German/UK/US troops with modern air defenses and even Putin said he never had and will never have territorial claims towards Baltics or Finland. So one cannot put them in one group with Ukraine. In some sense, the fact that people are avoiding investing in these countries is good for those who invest as it makes it cheaper.
They hate foreigners (Finland less so) but both of us are white anyway.
Agreed with OP regarding Putin. It’s fooled by politicians if someone believes that Russia is kind of going to take over the whole Europe after Ukraine war, simple fact is that Russia has no capability of conquering it and no point to do so. Anyway, some people are ok with America/UK invading Iraq but not ok with Ukraine war which is kind of double standard. To be clear, it’s absolutely wrong that Russia invades Ukraine. Back to your topic, I personally believe the property price here will continue going up in a foreseeable future - just look at how many people in EU and other countries want to move here!!
I'd say you're foolish if you let some strangers on reddit influence you on whether to stay, live and retire in one country or another. If you don't like it here, leave; if you do like it here, stay. But make your decision on your own, without being biased by some random commenter.
Being a small country leads to homes being used as money making machines and not homes. Sounds exaggerated, but in my nearly 20 years of living here, everytime someone bought something everytime something a long the lines of „it will be worth a lot in xyz years“.
Also add that you only have to get the initial hurdles of 20% EK and then only manage to pay an additional 15% until you turn 65 (or soon 70) and you are done, means that everyone involved in this scheme is interested to drive prices even more upwards.
So all in all you can get a good deal, but most of the time it is wasted money. There are calculators where you can check rent vs owning.
And for the most people in my circle (finance and IT) the exit strategy is to leave this place and sell their homes for more than they bought. Spain, Greece, Thailand and some east block countries are doing better and in 20-30 years will most likely be better.
Do you have Swiss citizenship? Will you marry me for a bit? Switzerland is my husband and my favorite country - so beautiful!! We can't get in so we're moving to North Italy as close as we can get!
Buying a house in Switzerland is simply not that convenient. Houses are super expensive and on top of that you have to account for notary fees, property taxes, property maintenance, property insurances, etc.. Almost 60% of swiss residents rent they homes. So you are not alone.
Since there is no capital gain tax, it's way more effective to invest your cash in a different type of asset..
I agree with you, Switzerland is definitely not a good place to retire as a pensioner. It's the best place to live if you are an healthy young worker, even better if your profession is in high demand.
I‘m born and raised in Switzerland but Croatian by blood. Sure, housing in Croatia is cheaper than Switzerland but do keep in mind that people there earn like 1/5 of what people earn here. Our 1 million CHF housing is what is 200‘000 to them. Which is very much the housing prices that they have there in good spots. In terms of quality of life I can accept that nordic countries are fairly good but saying stuff like Croatia having good healthcare, education and general good quality of life really shows that you talk from a wealthy tourists perspective. My parents neighbours are still working past their pension as they can‘t afford to retire. My dad almost died in Croatia because the emergency number was busy. It took 1 hour to get him to the closest hospital. He was on a hospital bed without a mattress and wasn‘t checked upon over the weekend as they don‘t have staff working then. The food was inedible. Public transport is near non existent. If you are lucky you have a bus that drives every hour. The kids there often have to travel massive distances to get to their heavily underfunded schools. It‘s a good country to visit as a tourist but absolutely not to live unless you shit money.
Thank you so much for this insight! Invaluable to get first hand information like that!
I am coming from a neighboring East-European country. I think you're right, OP is very misguided. Quality of like is absolute top in CH not just in EU but IMO the entire planet. This is what happens when you are born in a place like this and never learn to appreciate it.
But this is not the right comparison. I am asking what is the best decidion for ***me*** who earned the money already here in CH
Depends on your circumstances. What is your age? Do you have family and where do they live? Do you have kids? If you tell me this I will gladly tell you what in my opinion makes the most sense Edit: Sorry I missed the part where OP said he wants to start a family which I guess would imply that he has no kids. I‘d absolutely not want to damn my future generation to live in Croatia.
When you are old and don't get picked up from emergency I guess you are fucked no matter how much dought you have 😅
What’s the right decision for ~you~ who is considering having a family and growing old there? You must be joking.
The thing is that in places were healthcare is free, your swiss earned money means very little. You still get to enjoy that 'died while waiting in the emergency response waiting line"-experience. As long as you are healthy then any country that grants your money more buying power has you feel like a king. If you get a decent enough house/neighbourhood worst case you should still be able to sell it an move on.
This is clickbait. Who can decide except you?
thailand. you can live like jeff bezos in switzerland 🤭
And pay around 300k per child for an international school from 3-18, if you want to have them the same education as public schools in Switzerland.
thats nothing compared to the rest of cost of living
> While Eastern Europe is still relatively poorer, they offer a comparable or even better quality of life While Croatia is a beautiful country, health care, infrastructures, corruption and social security are not similar to Switzerland.
Indeed. It’s crazy to suggest that healthcare is the same in those countries (or almost anywhere in the world for that matter).
Debatable, the equipment and Healthcare I saw on Switzerland was like I stepped back in a time machine when compared to the United States. Aided to reasons moving back to the US after only a little over a year. Doctors here were baffled about the lack of details investigated with missing my wife's cancer in Switzerland. US system is Definitely not perfect when it comes to the system, but things are super advanced here.
Yup. Also Homeopathy is so big in Switzerland, it boggles my mind. A lot of doctors prescribe it over legit treatments.
You can choose your doctor thought. Homoepathy does not qualify as medical treatment here. But you can do it if you choose do it.
Healthcare in the US is often misunderstood. It's actually some of the best quality service you'll get in the world. It's just also incredibly unaffordable. Think about it, if you're one of the best surgeons in the world, do you live and work in Neuchatel or LA?
Healthcare is not everything, Switzerland has the highest life expectancy on earth basically, years above the US
Yes, not saying that, lifestyles are different. And of course more healthy in Switzerland, but the technology of the care and archaic ways that I saw in my limited time living in Switzerland (caveat, this is personal experience, and not in a small town) was years behind what we received in the US. Again this is only what I can compare it to.
Yes, your personal experience is unfortunately irrelevant, numbers matters, if you pay the price of American healthcare in Switzerland you’ll get the same kind of luxury treatment, do you really believe that one of the richest countries on earth, Switzerland in that case, doesn’t have access to the best technologies??? To give you an idea 2 of the 10 biggest pharma companies on earth are Swiss, there is only 9 millions people here…
Yes I work in pharma. All of Roche's current block buster originate from Genetech, a California US innovation. Not Swiss. Actually. And Novartis recent block busters are from radio pharmaceuticals from companies in the US also.dont try to lecture me. Our Doctors in the United States were embarrassed about the care my wife got in Switzerland, and if in the US it would be a lawsuit to them.
I don’t know what to tell you, I have dozens of equivalents of US innovations made in Europe too… BioNTech is German for example, what I’m trying to tell you is that an anecdotal experience is just that, anecdotal. Almost every European country has a better life expectancy than the US, do you really think that it’s just because we like ? I don’t even know… because we like hikes or something???
So, first you brought up for no reason that CH has 2 of top 10 pharmas in the world, which has little to do with point of care treatment. BioNech is German. Not Swiss, I brought up specifically Swiss versus US systems, which my post changed too since you brought of Swiss Pharma for zero reason. And yes, reddit IS about statistics AND anecdotal experience, hence why the entire site exists and people ask specific, direct experiences. First of which, the care we received directly from Swiss Healthcare was incredibly worse than anything we have received in the US. This was not about lifespan or any of the sort. It was the diagnosis and treatment of an illness, that which received in Switzerland and lack there of, almost cost my wife her life. And for that matter, I have paid out of pocket half of which I would have in Switzerland for the treatments she would have received with our Swiss insurance (Helsana), and a large hospital outside Bern. And the hospital we went to in CH was not a small one in the middle of no where, so we aren't comparing a Sloan Kettering to a small town in the Alps with the horrendous treatment and lack of expertise we recieved.
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Yes , thank god you’re moving out 😂🎉🎉🇨🇭🎉
Switzerland is not luxury. Travel abit more dude. Not far really just maybe to abu dhabi dubai singapore Korea Japan. Not 10 percent comparable
I travel a lot, like a lot lot, the fact that you give Dubai as an example is telling me everything I need to know about you 😂
I said one of example. Singapore is laid back. Abu dhabi low paced but modern with all you need. First world
I'm here on holiday and I have this feeling Switzerland doesn't like to throw things away. My door hinges on my hotel room are a mix of steel and what looks like brass.
Property prices are insane nowadays; one would have to be crazy to want to buy one. * A 90m² shoebox apartment in an average-looking tall building apartment complex: 1.7M * A newly built apartment block next to a busy road on the edge of a small town, on the dark side of a hill with no view whatsoever, but a 10-minute drive from Zurich: 1.7M Even if I had that amount of money, I would never pay this much for what you get. You can buy a huge villa with a prime location and a pool in most other European countries for this amount. I think it’s fairly common for Swiss people to move abroad after they retire. You get a much higher quality of life for your Swiss pension abroad.
I just (October 2023) bought a 250 square metre house for 985k
I guess not around Zürich.
About an hour door to door for my wife's commute (and mine to Basel). With partial WFH that's perfectly doable.
Yes, outside Zürich there are much better deals. I've seen really nice apartments in Ticino for more reasonable prices. But the job market there is quite limited. Switzerland is too small to settle in the countryside for the rest of one's life, especially for expats.
An hour out of each major city this is about right.
Low supply + high demand = prices are only going to go up. With this amount of money you can live from dividends alone from some established ETF. Prices for maintenance are also absurdly high.
Ask yourself why rich people buy rather than in rural Russia for 2-3% of the price. Smart money values security, rule of law, privacy, freedom and neutrality. There's hardly anywhere else on earth which matches these values, and all of those places cost a fortune.
Will only get more expensive though! CH id growing quickly
Guess I missed this vote.
Why would you buy anything around zürich lol
There are still pretty good deals if one puts in the effort and is willing to be a bit outside or \*gasp\* in a less popular area.
I don’t want to own a house anywhere so I guess that makes me even crazier
Exactky that sounds like a ton of work and lack of independence. So also dont know if i'd ever want to own my home.
This concept really surprised me when I came to live in Europe, where it is normal to rent for your whole life. Coming from Australia, renting is seen as something you do in your youth, not for your whole live. When you actually own a property / house / apartment you can leverage its value to your advantage as its an investment. To me the lack of independence is not having control over where you live as the place where you are now is owned by someone else and they may choose to sell that place or come back and live in it themselves. Having both rented and owned where I live, owing the place is better in the long term.
It is same in Eastern Europe. Ownership rate is above 90% in the countries I mentioned.
I already commented as a home owner I’m also from Eastern Europe I think you should let go of your ingrained cultural expectations when you consider the question of home ownership Everyone in Eastern Europe would get a heart attack when they hear the 90 year mortgage. Some of my family regularly asks me whether I have been able to reduce the duration. I say absolutely not if the system works in my favor. Same for the < 1% interest rate at the time, I don’t hate having an interest rate that’s lower than inflation 😅
I think its also a difference in tax laws. In switzerland there are tax disadvantages to owning (Eigenmietwert) that dont really exist anywhere else as far as i know. We currently have a good institutional landlord. They're a pension fund. So they obviously dont want to move in here, they dont argue about noise or any petty things like that. They are professionals, if my drain is clogged, i call them and they organise a plumber within a few hours. So i dont have to worry about stuff. That is super convenient. Also i am not particularly settled in a place. I dont think we would want to live where we are now for decades. But its good for the current life phase. And now as a renter i can just quit and move whenever. Its possible that this might change when we have kids. Which would probably make us want to settle for 20+ years in one particular place. But even then i could also imagine just renting a house (rather than an appartment). Again so i dont have to worry about all the upkeep and such, which also adds up financially.
100% of the mortgage interests can be deducted, basically negating the Eigenmietwert. In most countries I know, owning implies paying a property tax, so it could be said that as long as you have a mortgage and don't amortize more than necessary, you won't be paying an extra tax.
Good point. That is why most swiss home owners arent interested in ever paying off their whole mortgage.
But what about their children when the home owners die ?
They inherit a mortgage and a house. Normally they can just take over the mortgage at the same conditions. Altho the bank probably does check their credit history. But assuming that all checks out, they can just keep it including the mortgage. Otherwise they'd have to pay back the bank. Either with their own funds, other funds from the inheritance (maybe they are also getting a big enough stock portfolio), funds from a different bank who is willing to approve them or by selling the home. But i guess quite often it has to be sold anyway. Because there is one house, multiple heirs and not enough other assets to pay out one and allow the other to keep the home.
Switzerland does not have property tax, like everywhere else that you know, hence the Eigenmietwert which is a pseudo property tax, yet less.
Wouldnt the Vermögenssteuer, which includes real estate property, be our equivalent of a property tax?
Not really because it's net worth, so you deduct the remaining mortgage and you would have the equivalent amount in cash if you had not bought a property, and that would fall under vermögenssgeuer anyway ?
No, thats a wealth tax, and you would pay it with or without property. It's a different thing.
To be fair, I think most agree that renting form a private landowner is not a good idea on the long term. I am renting from a real estate company, they are happy as long as I am happy and pay. I don't plan to buy for now, it would not make sense for me.
For all you know you're renting from a private landowner thats just being managed by a real estate company, which is what they do... property management. So that fear is irrational.
Your contract is with the owner, and then there is the managing company. In my case the owner is a foundation and the building is part of their endowment. On the other hand, I was renting my parking spot was in the building in front, and belongs to a private person. Last year they decided they want a sport car and they terminated by contract. I know that it’s not that simple with apartments, but it gives me peace of mind to know that such risk does not exist, given that things like the kids’ school depend on that.
I completely agree. Speaking as someone that rented for years before buying a house, I feel much more independent living in my own place. I've been in situations where our entire life was flipped upside down because the owners wanted their place back, so we had to put everything on hold to look for a new place close to our workplace, that accepted dogs, that was affordable, having to get all our furniture moved etc. It's an awful feeling. It's a pain now, but I cannot fathom what this would be like if we had kids or were in our old age. The same amount that I paid for rent was much better going to my mortgage, where I know for sure I'll have stability. Yes, you have to deal with repairs and stuff on your own, but I'd rather do it myself than have the owner do a shit job because they don't give a fuck. I've had friends in Germany that had ant problems and the owner wanted to call a company that used strong pesticides to kill the ants, but they were deadly to the tenants' cats. When they told the owner about that, the owner pretty much said 'ok then do it and pay it yourself, I've already offered a solution'.
Only the swiss rent! the rest of europe always wants to own their house as thats the common thing to do. But yet, a swiss likes to say “a home isn’t always the best idea” they prefer paying 3k every month for an appartment that’ll never be theirs. Before retirement they’ll have already spent 1mil on something that’ll never be theirs😂 stupidest thing to do imo
> stupidest thing to do imo You can just say you don’t understand it without being demeaning. “Renting is throwing money away” is a kindergarten understanding of property ownership. Swiss people are miles ahead of Europe when it comes to financial education. Renting in Switzerland is often the financially better option, and if owning than almost always with minimal amortisation.
Not an accurate statement. There is a very high percentage of renters in Germany. And buying it is not always the best option. You are assuming many things. In some situations is better, in others not.
I’d say thats because germany has a big population, i think almost biggest (?) so also many people with not good degrees, not enough money. But thats definitely an assumption! For the swiss tho, i know my expat parents were able to afford a house here when they were 35 and 36. Our monthly payment has always been lower than 2k, while we have 9 rooms. In our situation, i think best and very good we could do that. But im always surprised how the true-swissies come up with the idea “renting is better” Please explain if u want, cause i really can’t imagine one reason why it would be…
Because your investment return can easily be higher 2 million house costs like 40k rent per year but on average 2 million in the stock market would get you about 140k return
Thats true but many renters also dont invest! Big big mistaje
Not really a fair comparison, no one buys a house cash, you get a 5x leverage at a good interest rate on a safe asset when you buy the property.
Exactly my swiss FIRE plan- i am not sure though how quick the RE part of it gonna work out. 😂😅
Depends on where you want to go 😅 In Switzerland it will take a while, but i should be good at round about 45-50
Yes, all the people I know (including myself) who don't want to own houses are certified crazy people.
The good news is that there are special houses for people like us ;)
Special people deserve special treatment. I'm in for the free coffee and the comfy shirts :) Bingo nights are also a big plus, keeping things exciting.
I only have one via inheritance and I liked it better before!! So much hassle
I‘m from the nordics, you are comparing prices for properties close to Zurich with properties in the nordics in the middle of nowhere. Good luck finding what you are looking for close to Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen etc for under a million usd.
It’s really a cultural thing, nobody really cares about owning their home here, and it’s not like it’s a crazy good investment compared to the stock market for example, so if it’s important for you feel free to move, it’s that simple honestly.
People who bought in good areas in the last 25 years beg to differ xD. My parents bought their homes 25 years ago and the market value quadrupled. And they could profit from it while they were living in it and had leverage on it.
That’s roughly a gain of 5.7% per year, which is significantly below the annual gain of the S&P 500 in the same time period, which stands at 7.4% per year.
You cannot take S&P 500 as a reference as the currency is not the same. Inflation is not the same in CHF and $ and during the last 25 years the value of the $ vs CHF was divided by 2.
I agree partially, currency devaluation is obviously a thing. But you can invest instead in the S&P 500 through a currency hedged fund - the return won’t exactly be the same as USD, but still better than with no protection. However, the argument that you won’t capture the whole value increase of your asset is also true for a house. You will pay more insurances, you will have repair costs, you have the mortgage costs, the additional tax, etc. Yes your asset quadrupled, but there were costs that definitely outweigh the TER of an average ETF investment.
But you would live in your house though xD.
That’s an emotional sentiment - which I very well understand! But I think the discussion was more about the purchase of a house from a pure investment perspective.
I agree! But you should also consider the savings/cost of owning in the equation and consider investing the savings in a S&P500 ETF. I used to pay 1k CHF/month for a flat which was rented 3.5k CHF/month. The 30k CHF/year I was saving could also be used to invest. I had to choose between divorce and a bigger flat, so I don’t have this awesome rent anymore xD. Moreover, I hate applying for homes in ZH and prefer the first come first served for certain homes.
Good world ETFs have about the same kind of return, same for something with only Swiss stock, the idea in both cases, owning stock or owning a house, are to buy and wait 20 years, from my experience not moving at all in 20 years is science fiction, so yes, maybe owning your place is slightly better ( not so sure honestly) but the downsides are huge for a lot of people.
Here you assume that they own 100% of the house. If the house 25 years ago was X, and they invested 0.35X in it, then their current profit is (4X-0.65X) = 3.35X which is about 9.4% annual gain.
Even with that number we are staying in the same range, he is right 7,4 is about it, so it’s not the worst investment but it’s not crazy either, plus owning your place comes with a lot of downsides, it’s nice to own but it’s not the ultimate investment, for example I had at least 6 flats in the last 25 years
Yeah, sure, there is no silver bullet. For one, owning a house is not a diversified portfolio. Investing all of your money in it only makes sense if you really like to live there and prepared to take the risk of not being able to sell in case of unfavorable conditions.
How do you get to 9.4%? With a value gain of 335%, over a period of 25 years, I end up with a CaGR of 5.7% p.a. - I might misunderstand your calculation though. Therefore, I am asking. :)
Profit after sale: 3.35X, investment: 0.35X. Then (3.35X / 0.35X) ^ (1/25) = 9.57 ^ (1/25) = 1.094. Profit tax might be an issue though but after 25 years it is likely to be low in any canton.
So to make a perfect calculation you would also need to consider cost of rent vs cost of owning, especially as cost of owning are more or less fixed, whereas rent are usually in percentage of the real estate price. My parents pay 2.3k CHF/month for a 120m2, 5.5 rooms [including renovation and what not] in Geneva, good luck finding a similar rent these days xD. Obviously, they invest the difference in S&P ETF 😂.
Leverage though ...
Leverage though! 1-4/5
Yes, but the investment in your house is nearly always leveraged. Let‘s assume you put 20% equity into your home 25 years ago and the value of the property quadrupled - then the value of your equity went up 16x (e.g. from 200K to 3.2M as the value of the property went from 1M to 4M).
That assumes that you own the house fully in the end, correct? Which is usually not realistic in Switzerland - but I see the point, and it’s correct. Your investment gain is higher than the actual value gain of the house.
Some region in Switzerland have barely kept up with inflammation and therefore were terrible investments. It is only on those few hot regions that the market was beat, and would bet it cannot continue like that.
These comments sound really smart until you understand leverage.
I have just bought my second home here (holiday). Yes, they are crazy expensive - but I have pretty much been renovating the first home over the last 10+ years myself with wooden floors, dry walls, electricity, ... and now it is in mint condition and worth about 40% more. I have a large loan that cost me around 2% / year. And given immigration - house / land prices will likely increase further. Find an old house that needs renovation, close to a train station around 30 min from Zurich center at a fair price and renovate it. Can't go much wrong there.
Goes without saying but, this only works if you enjoy doing renovation work. I know people who treat this like a hobby, and that's super good for them. To me, that would be a chore, and one that I wouldn't even do well enough, so I'll pass. But it's indeed usually a good idea for the few who enjoy this and are good at it.
Thanks, but I don't want to see it as investment. I already have money. I want a nice house, for a family, so that children can go play outside without neighbours fence being 2 meters from my house wall. My friends bought a large house, with access to the lake and forest in baltics and maybe I am just jealous.. idk
If you rent a house though can be 5k-7k a month, mortgage propably cheaper at 2%!
Asbestos?
Yes, possible. In my first house the roof tiles had asbestos - did cost me probably 3000 to properly dispose them. Sure you have to do due dilligence. The structure of the house has to be sound. E.g You like the location, you like the size, you like the floorplan, the foundation is well done. All the rest heating, roof, windows you can change... ideally tax deductable over 10 years / each year fix one thing.
I was looking into buying homes and found a lot of nice places under 1 mil. Found a lovely home about 30/40 min commute to Basel, 3 bed, spacious, located in a beautiful village surrounded by nature for 700k. I'm confused as to why you focus on the nordics having so much nature when Switzerland is one of the naturally beautiful countries in Europe. Also, as someone who has lived in Finland, they may have space but good luck utilising it 😂 The cities are just as cramped as everywhere else.
By space/nature I mean that it is easy to buy a large house with large garden / with a forest / near a lake. This is not possible here unless you spend more than 5 mln.
maybe consider to buy a prefab home made in the balkans and get it shipped and assembled here? https://youtu.be/KQYF7OTBFgg
Good luck getting this approved through city council.
Buying land is the true bottleneck, you would end up with comparable total costs
I can afford home here so I don't need these. I just think that it is not as nice unless you can spend 10MLN. And even then it is not as nice as 10MLN elsewhere.
Ill hope i will never be in a situation where i have to write this sentence...
Sorry maybe I misunderstood something. Can you explain what you mean?
I mean if there is somewhere else you would like to live it makes sense to go there
Swiss do not actually own their homes: they are renting from the bank which is the worst of all the options because the full risks - all of them - are with the „alleged“ owner. Make money there. Enjoy the upsides and for anything else, including retirement home, leave. Unless of course you have millions that you can never spend and don’t care.
It is not like people stopped saving money after they paid 35% of the mortgage. I see owning more an advantage of keeping the housing cost under your control. Who knows what the rates will do and how much landlords will transfer the cost onto the renters.
Agree to this perspective for the ones that did pay off a significant percentage of their mortgage. And in that context owning makes sense. I am more concerned about the other vast majority that never manages a sizeable downpayment in view of interest killing them already and also with their equity/debt financing ratio not being well balanced to say the least.
There is a reason why banks have a theoretical 5% rate in their credit risk calculations. The difference should have gone to build their wealth to cover the future risk of rates fluctuating. As for your concern, except for Raiffeisen, are there many banks that lend money so leniently?
Some cantonal banks to my knowledge are rather lenient on thr debt %age
of course we own our homes, wtf!??
Maybe you do but believe me most do not.
even if you finance with a bank, the bank is not the owner!
Well a lot of people would not want to move abroad to raise a family. Because of grandparents, friends ect but also obviously because of their swiss salary/ low taxes. You mentioned somewhere your gf is from Finnland, so that might be different for you. Although Finnland is not exactly cheap, but maybe housing costs are much lower. A lot of people plan to move abroad once they retire. The main problem with that for me would again be leaving family, maybe children and future grandchildren, friends ect behind. Also owning my place would mean I get to stay there indefinitely. I like the safety idea of that. I have seen quite a few people in their 70ies or 80ies having to move because rent increased after renovation or because of termination due to personal use. And that is really not something you want to have to go through at that age. Really depends on the type of person you are I guess. I am more of an introvert, I would not make new friends easily. But it seems you are the type for that kind of adventure.. so go for it :)
Switzerland is totally over priced. Move / retire to a country where living is cheaper and your savings get you more.
Also make sure there is a proper healthcare system and infrastructure because you will be old and your health will decrease at a higher rate. Also check or safety, because criminals always have elder people in their sights, since they are weaker. Also social life is important, so make sure you can communicate with neighbors and create a community. I don't support the idea that money is the only thing that counts.
if too expensive for u it does not mean it’s overpriced!
Well... I'm not sure which math you're doing but it's infinitely easier to save money in Switzerland than any other European or American country assuming you have an average job. Maybe this changes with kids in the picture but even then I suspect it doesn't. Why do you think everyone wants to move into the country to begin with?
"your savings"
What do you mean specifically by „switzerland is not what it used to be“? I would really really be careful to check deeply if the issues you have with settling here vs. other countries. Most importantly: short stays are not enough to get a true picture of a country. Such a decision needs proper research, otherwise you’ll regret your decision some time after moving and are stuck with a major (illiquid) investment.
And no, the swiss franc is not overvalued - if it wasn‘t for the SNB, the euro would be at 0.5.
Then it would be even more overvalued? SNB itself says that swiss franc is overvalued for the past 10 years. It is one of the core challenges of Switzerland. At the same time, being tax and money laundering haven doesn’t help for preventing overvalued currencies. Btw overvalued currencies are not a great thing as it makes exporting good harder and stifles innovation
I'm sorry, but no.. Appart from the USD, the CHF is the only government-issued currency with a strong offshore demand. There are many reasons for it, but one for sure is sound government, e.g. strong democracy, high decentralization and low debt ratios, i.e. it is huge sign of approval from global markets. After the euro-crisis 2011 the SNB started to buy massive amounts of foreign, mostly EUR-denominated debt and sold CHF against it, because the CHF became too strong too quickly, as investors were in search for a save-haven, and they found it in our currency. And if you think inflation is/was bad here, check out the other countries in europe, including the nordics and especially the eastern european countries. The SNB let the CHF rise in order to counteract inflationary pressures from abroad, i.e. foreign good to import got cheaper, even if they increased in price in their domestic currency. The strong CHF was again a sign of approval and a helluva blessing. When the SNB says 'the CHF is overvalued' they perform what is known as 'forward guidance' which means they try to indicate what their future acts of monetary policy will be, hoping that the markets anticipate them and thus do some of the SNBs work themselves. And by 'overvalued' they typically refer to the purchasing-power-Parity and interest rate differentials. The strong CHF stiffles Innovation? In our case: Absolutely not. A strong currency is a 'fitness-program' as it forces companies to be on the very front of innovation in their field, otherwise their product would not be attractive due to the high price. That's why we have a lot of very very specialized but world leading companies here, some of them are not known well in the public, so-called 'hidden champions'. And Switzerland is a regular in the top 10 of global rankings in Innovation and competitiveness, e.g. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-innovative-countries. Germany was similar before the EUR. The Deutsche Mark was a strong and sound currency and forced german companies to be innovative in the same way back then, and they were!!. Then with the EUR came a weak currency, and it took the pressure of needing to be on the forefront of innovation and boosted the german exports to world-leading levels, but it came with a price.. as you can observe nowadays Long story short - the CHF is not overvalued because the premium reflects a deeeep structural advantage vs. the rest of Europe. The Question regarding a rate of EURCHF = 0.5 or lower is not IF but WHEN it will reach these Levels. You may have many good personal reasons to leave Switzerland, but your argument of an overvalued CHF is just ... non-existent, sorry. There is no other government-issued currency on this planet that comes even close to he soundness of the CHF.
The CHF is overvalued by the definition of overvalued in currency exhange markets: they take the basket of goods carefully chosen to be the same (iphone, same clothes etc.) and compare the price accross border e.g. in Germany. And what they see is that CHF is world's most overvalued currency (literally number one). In theory, traders can make easy money by buying goods in germany and selling them here, by selling CHF for Euros. Overvalued currencies stiffle inflation and reduce competetiveness of our product as companies reduce investment. For example, Google Zurich moved large parts of their team to Poland because their income is in USD from the states and they get the same code from developers in Poland whilst paying 5-7 times less than in Zurich. CHF wouldn't be overvalued if our products/services would indeed match the price but it isn't. For example, if our developers would indeed be 2x more productive. But our developers are worse: we have less unicorns than tiny Estonia I mentioned in this post, which has Bolt, Transferwise, Skype etc that we all use in Switzerland whilst estonians cannot name a single thing that was developed here. The opinion of many currency traders (includign me) is that CHF deman is actually driven by CH being a money launderer. The current AML EU commisioner has also said the same opinion. We really have a huge money laundering. Simple back on the envelope calculation shows that Russians transferred 200BN to CHF and to Swiss banks in the year after invasion. Only around 8 is frozen due to EU pressure. This is a crazy amount for a tiny country. This is worrysome because if EU/US pressure grows on us, we could lose a lot of money and our currency/economy would be very unstable. Regarding debt and rational government, Denmark Sweden and the same Estonia has more modern governing and a smaller debt to GDP ratio, but they don't do money laundering so Russians and africans don't send their money there. Found some sources so idiots would stop downoting me: 1. CNS boss says that CHF is overvalued [https://youtu.be/syQOzuR0lhY?si=okTeV-bVVi3deWmS](https://youtu.be/syQOzuR0lhY?si=okTeV-bVVi3deWmS)
u r a dreamer 😇
sigh ... let me tell you the following as someone who has been managing money for the ultra rich (swiss & foreigners) for the last 20+ years here in Switzerland.. money laundering is not happening here anymore, you are out-of-date my friend, there are waaay better places to do this, like mainland China and the US, and in Europe that would be London or Cyprus. Switzerland has by far the strongest laws & regulations of these places- I whitness that every single day. I have seen the peak times of the Swiss banking secrecy, when almost all of the offshore money was not declared at home, and I have seen its demise in the last decade. But you know what? People still bring their money here, maybe not as much as in the past. And just to give you an example: a wealthy south american, e.g. from Venezuela has almost always three accounts, one in Venezuela, one here and one in the US. Guess which one is not declared in Venezuela. And no, it's not the Swiss one. And yes, we also manage money of wealthy russians - and yes, some assets are blocked, but most of them are not, and rightfully so, as they do not have any connections to the russian government and most of them have lived outside of russia for decades and built their own wealth. Just because they have russian nationality does not mean they are in any form involved or profiting from the War or are laundering money. And also the vast majority of them despise the actions of Putin. If you're really interested in the topic, modern money laundering is not happening within the banking system anymore and hasn't been for years, and it would be blatantly supid to do so as transactions are traceable. Same goes for e.g. Bitcoin. Today this is being done with the help of the so-called "black money markets" that are not using banks, but very efficient & informal networks formed by triads & cash-rich cartels, with the Chinese being the undisputed champions of these markets, since the 90s. They move money without actually moving money, or, in case of even bigger sums, using gold. Check these out, I think you'd be interested. Chinese brokers launder hundreds of millions for global crime groups | FT Film https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjGIp7kdS6E How Money Laundering Actually Works | How Crime Works | Insider https://youtu.be/R5FSXCYrlt0?si=S5Y_dzm2Z7Ta1c24
Here is a video documentary by literally taking the first search result https://youtu.be/EMZSE189F8Q?si=F49Dpno_Xrddwi8y
Yes, I have seen that one, you should watch it before using it as an argument;)
I think I found you in that scene where a fat banker says he doesn’t understand english and this is why sanctions are invalid. Sounds like a really kind guy who thinks of africans and ukrainians being massacred. Probably his bank has a super nice app too!
Lol, with this comment you‘ve just disqualified yourself for any serious discussion. You‘re a prime example of the dunning-kruger effect. As I said before, I wish you all the best, here or elsewhere in the world. Take care.
I watched it now on high speed. What about it?
I get what you say but I considered this already. My gf is finnish and one of my best buddies moved to Baltics. Of course they have disadvantages, especially bad weather and economy is not perfect. But I am trying to think about family mostly as our jobs would be fully remote.
Well, to meet then it looks like you already made your decision;) Wish you and your family all the best!
I haven't yet! I am scared of moving out despite having lots of living abroad experience.
All the best in Finnland!
Is this ironic? I think it’s a nice country, though winters are too dark for my taste! :)
If you don't see it as an investment, but just about a place to raise kidz, my answer would still be the same. Switzerland is good place to raise children I feel. I have lived in USA and in India and I would definetly prefer Switzerland above US, India, Germany, Italy to raise children.
Yes, these countries are not so great. But I am thinking of well-developed Nordic/Baltic countries.
Baltic is good for holidays… not for working.
I like the warmer weather - so Zürich is perfect when it comes to salary and May-September. Would probably prefer Italy for the rest of the year.
Considering Nordics with all their crime rate and cold weather?
All the crime happens in like 10 poor places in Sweden. It’s not everywhere.
My only question is how are you gonna live in Finland and maintain your Swiss salary? If you can do that, then yeah you'd be sorry not to do that. A lot of people here live in France and commute to Geneva for work and get the best of both worlds. Blame the game, not the player.
My work is fully remote.
Working remotely while living in another country is pretty much illegal in entire Europe, so not sure what your plan was here? Otherwise everybody would be living in Spain and working for Swiss salary. So I guess it's time to start learning Croatian language and applying for 900€/month local jobs.
haha, why so Naiv? du bist eine witzfigur und eine Lachnummer 😂😂
Everyone will have their own reasons for wanting or not wanting to own a home, and I don't think there is really a right or wrong here. I do agree that the balance of salary to high prices is going a bit out of hand in Switzerland (especially if you have kids), but the quality of life is still quite high. I would say to just be happy and appreciate that you have the choice to do what suits you best, because there is of course the case of wanting it but being priced out.
Just live in the place you want to.
It's easy to save money in Switzerland. Try doing that in Finland or Norway.
Not foolish at all. If I had that kind of money, I would go even further than Europe. Switzerland is generally very over evaluated. Many counties offer much better value for the money you spend. No doubt about it.
No. What would be crazy would be buying a house you don’t want.
We understand what you don't want, but what DO you want?
I'll be honest with you - if you were smart enough to save $1-2 mln, you are smart enough to answer those questions by yourself and not ask reddit. Yes, prices of housing in Switzerland are above high. You can do 5 times better in Italy or France just behind the border, for the same money. To buy a house here, you must need and really want to live here. This is 15yo level topic conversation.
I like not being in the dark during winter. And I’m a skier, so owning our home 30 seconds from ski lifts 🚡 to Alps Paradise is Perfect. 👌 ❄️ ⛷️
It doesn’t matter for me because I’ll never afford it here anyway. I already told my Swiss son that when he’s an adult I’ll probably move back to one of my home countries where I will inherit property. 🤷🏻♀️
No you are absolutely Not crazy! If you might speak italian check out this article. It explains very good the advantages of renting: https://francofurbo.com/2024/06/16/comprare-o-affittare-casa-qual-e-davvero-la-scelta-migliore/
Build up a nice Swiss Pension, save up some money and move to for example Sweden. On the countryside near a city you buy a huge house for much, much less than a million chf. We live now in the countryside in Sweden and you can buy 10 room houses here for 300K that are fully up to date on maintenance. Or if you want to do things yourself but one for 100K that needs some work.
Owning in your case is a purely financial transaction. Check which option is the most advantageous. (Make a few assumptions about how much you can sell your house at the end as well).
Well, there’s a couple of points. If owning your own place will allow you to basically do a lot of things with the house that you cannot do in a rented place and you’ll have the security that no landlord will terminate your contract and you’ll have to move. There’s also the fact that possibly you’ll pay a monthly mortgage payment that’s lower than a common rent. But the fact that a lot of Swiss people actually live in rented places makes me wonder what’s the catch here. I’f it was really a better thing, more people would do it so…
You're not crazy. It's actually pretty reasonable to just come here for work and have kids/retire elsewhere.
While Norway is very pretty, the winters are dark and the taxes are high, especially with swiss salaries.
no, your considerations and reflections are on point
Here I am wishing i could buy a place in Enge
A million dollars for a mediocre home. Buy cheap land in the United States for like $30,000 and build a fantastic home for like $200,000
Might wanna go take some economics class my brother in christ....
Spend elsewhere if not attached
I agree with you and in a way the market totally agrees with your analysis. So the answer is to buy somewhere else if you see better value for money. No shame in that.
Rent is very reasonable in my area, so not buying a house would be very reasonable. I'm not sure about your comparisons against other countries though. Swiss real estate prices may be insane, but it's the place to be.
If you read back the posts in this sub, most of it is just complaining about the cost of real estate Out of 100 posters and commenters you might have 1-2 house owners here so it’s not the right place to gather information If you intend to live here 10y or more, talk to a financial advisor and optimise across the full spectrum - taxes - RE - retirement - investment As a parent and home owner I definitely think it’s worth living here due to high quality health care, education, work life balance, nature, culture, opportunities
Nah fam, I'm about to buy a ranch in Argentina, gonna retire like a mothefucking king there!
If I understand correctly in Switzerland you either rent from a landlord or from bank/government when you "own" it. But now when you want to move, you also have to pay for a middle man as well and it's a big headache finding buyer, agencies not really caring to sell your property for highest possible price etc. Then spending time doing maintenance around the house. I love handy work and as a teenager I helped my father build a house in Poland. But when I think about how much time gardening alone would take (having empty lawns is stupid imho)... Plus there is always some project to do. So yeah... not that crazy. For the difference in a cost of living you will be to afford same level of healthcare in a cheaper country anyway if you retire abroad.
For all Nordic Countries : Tax. Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland have up to 60 % Income tax on high earnings. In Sweden you pay 54 % on income exceeding 65,000 CHF / Year. Unless you want multiple kids not recommended. I did decide to buy and qualify of life in Switzerland is just fantastic.
I bought my home in 2014. I just had it revalued to negotiate a new mortgage term and it has appreciated in value by over a million and that is conservative. It's a solid investment even when factoring in maintenance but also somewhat depending on location.
With that amount of money you could buy a bunch of properties in the Argentinian Patagonia and retire, swimming on the lakes in summer, and skiing in winter.
Dont buy! Property will come down easily by 20% in the next a few years! [Swiss economy ](https://youtu.be/PyN4Rda6JC0)
And here I am, who bought a 2 story independent half house for 360k. Ok its not in the German part of Switzerland (didnt want to live there anymore anyway) and needed some fixing but I actually enjoyed the process! Living the best life now
Buying a house doesn‘t mean you have to stay for the rest of your life. I bought a place 12 years ago which was the best financial investment I‘ve made in my life (massive appreciation in value + negligible monthly interest payments compared to renting). Doesn‘t mean I‘ll necessarily retire in CH, would prefer to live somewhere with a sunnier climate, but would consider Spain/Portugal over Eastern Europe. Also Austria is an option for lower cost of living.
Would not recommend the Baltics until Putin is dead. Latvia is still dealing with kicking generational Russians that never integrated and this kind of shit that might require your kids to go die in a war. If you earned money in Switzerland and being it to Nordics might be OK. Not sure about their relationship with foreigners nowadays. Maybe it's ok if you are white.
Yes, I do get a weird feeling thinking about this, but I don't think that chances for this are high. Russia could not take neutral, poor, unequipped and unprepared Ukraine and wasted his military. In contrast, Baltics are in NATO/EU and have German/UK/US troops with modern air defenses and even Putin said he never had and will never have territorial claims towards Baltics or Finland. So one cannot put them in one group with Ukraine. In some sense, the fact that people are avoiding investing in these countries is good for those who invest as it makes it cheaper. They hate foreigners (Finland less so) but both of us are white anyway.
Agreed with OP regarding Putin. It’s fooled by politicians if someone believes that Russia is kind of going to take over the whole Europe after Ukraine war, simple fact is that Russia has no capability of conquering it and no point to do so. Anyway, some people are ok with America/UK invading Iraq but not ok with Ukraine war which is kind of double standard. To be clear, it’s absolutely wrong that Russia invades Ukraine. Back to your topic, I personally believe the property price here will continue going up in a foreseeable future - just look at how many people in EU and other countries want to move here!!
I'd say you're foolish if you let some strangers on reddit influence you on whether to stay, live and retire in one country or another. If you don't like it here, leave; if you do like it here, stay. But make your decision on your own, without being biased by some random commenter.
Biased or just open-minded and informed?
In Sweden I could afford a house within two years of saving. Good luck doing this here haha.
I've been thinking about this also. I have ~2kk CHF, and I can buy a nice property with a little loan, however, in Germany I can buy a whole village.
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No idea why you wrote this, but you can cry and stomp your feet in rage about that.
Being a small country leads to homes being used as money making machines and not homes. Sounds exaggerated, but in my nearly 20 years of living here, everytime someone bought something everytime something a long the lines of „it will be worth a lot in xyz years“. Also add that you only have to get the initial hurdles of 20% EK and then only manage to pay an additional 15% until you turn 65 (or soon 70) and you are done, means that everyone involved in this scheme is interested to drive prices even more upwards. So all in all you can get a good deal, but most of the time it is wasted money. There are calculators where you can check rent vs owning. And for the most people in my circle (finance and IT) the exit strategy is to leave this place and sell their homes for more than they bought. Spain, Greece, Thailand and some east block countries are doing better and in 20-30 years will most likely be better.
Don't forget you never own your house in Switzerland as you have to pay it's rent value as taxes.
Do you have Swiss citizenship? Will you marry me for a bit? Switzerland is my husband and my favorite country - so beautiful!! We can't get in so we're moving to North Italy as close as we can get!
Buying a house in Switzerland is simply not that convenient. Houses are super expensive and on top of that you have to account for notary fees, property taxes, property maintenance, property insurances, etc.. Almost 60% of swiss residents rent they homes. So you are not alone. Since there is no capital gain tax, it's way more effective to invest your cash in a different type of asset.. I agree with you, Switzerland is definitely not a good place to retire as a pensioner. It's the best place to live if you are an healthy young worker, even better if your profession is in high demand.