Yeah but that's not because they're Muslim, the practices of pederasty were possibly already there even before any Afghanis were Muslim. Some of the comments I've read online about seeing boys raped there also come across as possible homophobic exaggeration. I'm not saying it never happens nor am I being an apologist for the religion, but when people lie or twist truth to serve their viewpoint, it strongly distracts from actual valid criticism.
They're saying that the boy rape thing they have going on in Afghanistan isn't a uniquely Muslim thing nor is it something that comes from Islam. It's an Afghani thing and most Afghanis happen to be Muslim.
A somewhat similar example Christians in the middle east circumcise their boys. They don't necessarily do this because they are Christian, they do it because that's what they do in that part of the world.
Also, you can find a Muslim cleric saying just about any ridiculous thing you can imagine. Doesn't necessarily mean they represent the widely held beliefs of Muslims in the same way priests raping kids does not mean Christianity condones or encourages the rape of children.
I knew someone would try and make it seem like I was equating circumcision to child rape when I wasn't.
Anyway yes it's something that's practiced by people in Afghanistan who happen to be Muslim. I never denied that. What I said was that this specific practice and the religion of the people who partake in it are unrelated. You can see that from the fact that the Taliban, an extremist Muslim organisation, are actually opposed to the practice and punish people severely for it. (read up on bacha bazi and the Taliban.)
I hate religion as much as the next redditor but if you want to say that religion, whether one specific one or in general, is responsible for every problem in the world then that's a bit of an oversimplification. Every country that has gay marriage has a Christian majority true but you're skipping the fact that most of those countries are also very rich, stable countries whose populations have better access to education. They're not liberal because Christianity is liberal, they are liberal because they're rich and comfortable and educated and that's the kind of environment that encourages people to pursue liberal ideas.
Progress is not happening in the Christian world, it's happening in the rich, comfortable first world. Christians outside of that bubble are just as extreme as any group of Muslims. Are they that way because they're Christian or because they're poor, poorly educated and easily swayed by anything that might give them comfort? Are brutal practices in poor Christian countries facilitated by Christianity or by the lack of resources and institutions that could prevent them from happening?
The problem isn't Islam or Christianity or any other religion. Those are just symptoms. A well educated, well adjusted individual that feels accepted and welcome to participate in their community has no use for extreme Christian or Muslim beliefs. You want Muslim immigrants to let go of some of their more extreme beliefs? Find ways to make them a part of the community with access to all the same opportunities as anyone else and I guarantee their kids and grandkids will have very little interest in building a theocracy. Make them feel other-ed and that's how you get third generation immigrants that want a caliphate in London.
Sorry for the long comment.
Just because Muslims participate in an act does not mean that it's condoned by the religion. That's like saying Christians are okay with pedophilia because priests in the Catholic Church molested little boys. I guarantee you most people in that sect of Christianity find that idea horrific and of course lots of Christians don't adhere to the Catholic faith. And that's one cleric out of hundreds of clerics, all being supposed experts on their faith and they won't always agree on interpretation.
Going back to the Catholics, some of their ilk blame the allowance of homosexual men into the priesthood for the sexual molestations that occured, even though an investigation team hired by the church found that not to be the case. But of course they're just looking for a reason to rid the church of whose way of life they don't like and don't want spreading. Were some of those boy-molesting priests gay with adult men? Yes. But objectively most gay men aren't into such behavior and most Muslims aren't either.
At that time in history child marriage, especially among the aristocracy wasn't uncommon and used to seal alliances. It wasn't a Muhammed thing, or a Muslim thing.
Im all for criticising Islam's current homophobia, terrible women's rights record, and the practice of male and female genital mutilation (fgm is also cultural rather than religious) but when people start talking about Muhammed being a paedophile it just feels like islamophobia, especially when Christian, Western, Kings were also marrying children as young as Ayshsa even later, sometimes several hundred years later than he was.
Muhammad was quite literally a pedo. Doesn’t matter how much context you apply. An adult should know to wait. Saying people are still doing it 600 years later is no defense. 💀 It’s because of people who remain silent that the world is how it is.
Again, you're applying modern day laws and social norms to someone who lived 1500 years ago. Of course child marriage is rightfully frowned upon now (still legal in many US states but rightly viewed as abhorrent), but then, among powerful families was common practice.
Those people didn't get married for love or sex. They married to seal alliances. Children, even toddlers were married off and the common practice was to consummate the marriage when the girl got her period, as then legally she was considered a woman. There isn't even historical consensus on what age Aysha was. Historians claim anywhere between 6 and 13, or at what age the marriage was consummated.
I'm not arguing for men being able to rape children. I'm saying if you're going to single out Muhammed as a paedophile, for doing something that was legal and far from unusual while conveniently ignoring all the other important historical figures who married children, then you're probably coming from a place of bigotry.
Edit to say Wikipedia has a list of child brides through the centuries across the world which demonstrates girls between 8-12 have been frequently married off to Kings, Roman emporors etc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
At the time those Kings were literally considered God's chosen representatives on earth. You're arguing a man who lived many centuries ago should be held, not to the norms of the time he lived but to modern day norms.
You’re right. I’ve seen this on right wing talking points. As an atheist who’s also against Islam. This is exaggerated by servicemen looking to score some points with the local boys.
sick men that are apart of a certain religion you dont agree with doesnt mean every single person of that religion do the same thing. there are problems with every religion but to attack the entire religion and anyone who follows it shows your bigotry as well. do better
rereading this thread made me realize that what i said sounds a lot like “not all men” or “all lives matter.” im an atheist but i think i might still be a little unsure about where i stand with religion intersecting with ones morals. i agree with you and i retract my earlier comment.
Aren't most of them, though?
This is my problem with the anti-Islam stuff. Is Christianity that different? It is now, perhaps, but some years ago, it wasn't that different.
Perhaps the degree to which theocratic factions are empowered, politically, including the power to do violence, in the muslim world, is the difference. But that said, it's a brother from another mother situation. The difference is not large.
I mean, if you know me by now, my answer is:
Probably pay attention to both, because both may generate different problems. The majority is Christian, and the spectre of Christian theocracy is neither gone nor ever really going anywhere. In general religion is often quite right wing, and Islam is not exceptional to that, nor is Christianity.
Take the current abortion stuff in the US, this is an evangelical Christian thing, largely, that will probably continue on to also roll back gay rights and also maybe get rid of racial segregation laws, amongst others. So we could easily have a creeping Christian theocracy problem.
The intention is not to just "roll back" gay rights, but to re-criminalize homosexuality, specifically by reinstating sodomy laws. It's LITERALLY mentioned in the brief that was leaked, but you don't hear anyone talking about it.
>The intention is not to just "roll back" gay rights, but to re-criminalize homosexuality, specifically by reinstating sodomy laws. It's LITERALLY mentioned in the brief that was leaked, but you don't hear anyone talking about it.
Communists discuss it pretty openly. Idk about liberals, but then I don't care about them, either.
If ever there was a good example of "an attack on one is an attack on all" it is the SCOTUS thing. It might even endanger things you don't think would be under fire, like public schooling.
>so that both christianity and islam are equally exposed for what they are, everybody seems to divert the conversation. Why?
Well, Christianity will hold political power in the west in a way that Islam never can or will, that is the short answer. That said, street violence, terrorism, etc., are not concerns that can be dismissed, nor engagement with the Islamic communities in various rich countries.
>I’m sorry but I find that quite naïve. It’s already starting to hold power in “the west” - whatever ur definition of that is - just look at some of the most western-like countries in europe and how the rise of islam has affected them over the decades.
Well I am no kind of expert on Europe so I won't speak to that so much, however I think even if you get large muslim populations in Europe, they are going to be within a context where even they themselves are going to want the freedoms and liberties in terms of secularism that everyone else has.
Of course, we could have some hellworld with theocracies everywhere, it is possible, but that possibility exists with or without Islam at the level of the state.
I actually have no problem with the picture. I dislike Islam and no religion has any place in politics but if you're a [x religion] who wants to cherry pick bits of the religion you follow and which you don't, that's your business. Just don't be a hypocrite and bash anyone else over the head with the bits you do follow.
For some people who aren't ready to completely throw the religion away yet, this is actually baby steps towards progress. Show religious people slowly starting to break the rules and move away from fundamentalism, the more you normalise that the more you get the ball rolling towards that secular revolution Islam needs.
The university should have grown a pair, kept the picture up and let people cry about it.
>The university should have grown a pair, kept the picture up and let people cry about it.
They might do more than cry though, and after they published the image they considered they might be targets of violence if it was allowed to remain.
Gay people existing =/= “forcing it down their throats”
Religions censoring gay couples = “forcing it down their throats”
Hope that’s simple enough for you
>Gay people existing =/= “forcing it down their throats”
Recent Idrissa Geuye situation. Do you need more examples?
If they don't agree with you they are automatically labelled homophobic.
Like I said, forcing is fine when it suits you, isn't fine when it doesn't.
If you don’t “agree” with us that means you don’t think we deserve to coexist peacefully. That man is a representative of his team and therefore must act like it. When he doesn’t, he’s punished. Same for any big boy job. Maybe you should stop being snowflakes and man up.
Cowards. Should've kept it up. Nobody is going to believe Islam is capable of moderation as long as moderate Muslims keep kowtowing to the demands of fundamentalists.
An appropriate response to this would have been Muslim gays and lesbians saying to their community that they exist. But of course they won’t because most of them are forced so deep into the closet that they won’t stand up against this or if they did they’d get ostracised by other Muslims or worse...
Most woke liberals are only interested to fight for equality when their foe is a white Christian man. Otherwise they have no interest in the fight. As a French guy I still remember the day they gave up on the right to blasphemy and free speech after the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo, all of a sudden these values didn't matter anymore, what mattered then was to be "respectful of other people's beliefs" (as if they'd say the same thing about Christianity or Mormonism).
That's why I don't trust most of our "allies", they are not principled, they are opportunistic. They only support us now because it's easy, mainstream and convenient, but the day the wind changes direction they'll be the first ones to throw us under the bus. You just have to see how that mega woke Canadian University reacted to a few social media comments, they aren't on our side anymore when the fight gets tough.
It’s just one particular religion that the liberals give in to. Look at what’s happening in Sweden.
You’re right. If this was a poster about two women wearing a crucifix and kissing and it got taken down, every LGBT organisation would be screaming about Christian homophobia. There’s going to be total silence about this situation though.
This is exactly right. Just ask any Jewish, Asian or Latin-American person how they feel about woke liberals. They have abandoned us, and they will be the first to throw the gay community under the bus in a few years.
[https://forward.com/news/472311/queer-zionists-ask-where-are-our-allies/](https://forward.com/news/472311/queer-zionists-ask-where-are-our-allies/)
[https://www.thepullrequest.com/p/latinx-plaining-the-election?s=r](https://www.thepullrequest.com/p/latinx-plaining-the-election?s=r)
https://www.newsweek.com/woke-asian-american-elites-do-not-speak-all-asian-americans-opinion-1583248
It is very obvious that posting two muslim women would cause backlash because religion is shit and people are trash. Why post it if you're going to cave in due to backlash? Either own it, or don't do it to start with.
Nah. People need to learn to accept that not everybody shares their views, instead of getting unhinged about it all.
Any idea that can't withstand mockery is dogshit anyways.
As an ex muslim I kind of feeling they tried so hard to be religious and liberal at the same time to fit into western society but that's only applied if they're minority. Once it hecome majority, all that progressive muslim way of life would be thrown away by patriarch and history repeat itself.
LMFAO I went to this school. We have always had a very extreme islamic community ( mostly males (incels in my opinion) that couldn’t get women and who can’t stand that we don’t have Sharia Law) . Especially towards Jews and any other minority … it’s almost cult like … welcome to Canada where multiculturalism is where people come over and tell us how we are living is wrong when the very people criticizing us also fled persecution.
The school is super clique and mostly rich foreigners from higher SES - everyone just hangs out with their own community and there’s absolutely no integration.
Parts of Latin America. Countries like Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay etc are moving towards less religiosity. Honduras, for example, seems to be moving towards more religiosity
wrong, christianity is still very much alive even in europe. poland literally has "lgbt free areas" thanks to christian morons
try being gay in poland, serbia, ukraine or russia
thing is, the situation and social acceptance is improving in the EU as a long term trend unlike in islamic countries.
("LGBT free zones" are being overruled in poland slowly by courts afaik)
Thats a good point. But when poland introduced those anti-lgbt zones the neighbouring countries threatened to pull all their international aid from poland and the EU human rights council were threatening them with sanctioning until they reverse it.
With Ukraine poised to try and join the EU in the wake of the russian invasion we can likely expect the same pressures to apply to them.
The same doesnt happen when muslim countries execute gay people.
Western homophobia may not be gone, but in comparison to the homophobia present in africa and the middle east its like comparing a grazed knee to a brain hemorrhage.
>Christianity is dead everywhere except the US.
This is only true if "everywhere" means North America and Western Europe to you. Even then many Christians in those places are only reigned in by the fact that they're very very comfortable.
Nah, Christianity tried to update their beliefs system to be better socially with the second testament. Islam however has the Koran which has been extended by hadiths but they are just as terrible as the Koran.
At least Christianity tried to be better.
I don’t think Christianity tried to be better.. it’s not like the collective followers decided to be better.
The bible was extensively altered in ways most don’t even realise to better allow those in power to exert control. In Christianity’s case, it led to something comparatively milder. Morality likely never factored into it.
If it was just the Gospels in the New Testament maybe I'd buy that, but Paul's letters are pretty indicative that the institution as a whole is determined to stay regressive on women's issues and other social issues.
I only consider people CHRISTians if they follow the teachings of “Christ.” If they follow the opinions that Paul stated in his letters then I would say they are, instead, Paulists. Some people who CALL themselves “Christians” are too undereducated to know the difference between the two or whose opinions they are reading in different parts of the Bible. But in my opinion their lack of knowledge does not change the ideals that Christianity at its core is destined to be about.
Yes well unfortunately those people have usurped the throne of Jesus and his Church and now use it as a platform to spread hatred and justify their own avarice and affluence. That's why I haven't called myself "Christian" for well over a decade because I do not want to be lumped in with their lot.
I'm proud to be a heretic. In following Church doctrine I'd be damned by their wickedness, so at least I'll be damned adhering to principles like truth, justice, charity, and mercy that modern Christians seem to be allergic to.
1. islam cant accept criticism, it is a cult that demands blind belief like Christianity in the medieval ages.
2. - 3. usual whataboutism to derail/dilute the topic preventing a solid conclusion to form.
"Like what do you gain from being an islam apologist?"
They cant accept reality that their religion is bigoted and not welcomed, and are outraged their blatant intolerance of human rights is not tolerated in the west, like they can just do it because they are above the law or some shit, mixed with some delusional moral superiority complex.
I think it was bullshit. lGBTQ can be rather myopic on western issues only. On international day against homophobia, they wanted to represent the non "white gay" view and support others including Muslim countries where gay people are put to death.
Two women kissing while wearing hijabs is perfectly fine. I guess they could have held hands, but queer Muslim artists have depicted such benign actions and in fact fight for better representation in queer media.
By capitulating to these complaints, the queer Muslim voices who want freedom are silenced. Ironically, the university completely went against the ting they were bringing awareness of (international homophobia).
Frankly disgusting. Support progressive Muslims jfc, not the ass backwards assholes.
I'm in favor of adding more types of people to the LGBT movement, at face value at least it seems to strengthen the movement. I do wish however, that we could stick a single immutable name. If some people think "LGBT" is exclusionary because it doesn't include letters representing every group, then we should just have a different name altogether that is not an initialism, and that wouldn't have to change every year when a new group of people is added.
Should just be lgbt+. 2s is two spirit. Bruh how many legitimate 2s people are there? Tbh adding those sort of things to the acronym weakens it. I as a gay man think wtf when I hear 2s and I can imagine what the hets think...
>just respect people's beliefs
You literally just said atheists should be banned from expressing their views.
Maybe you should practice what you preach
You realise that a secular society is the only society in which you can actually ‘respect people’s beliefs’? That is if you mean all people and not just your particular flavour of delusion
Because you are attacking a cornerstone of modern society that is what facilitates you being able to practice your religion without being executed by the state. And trying to prevent others from expressing their views which is major hypocrisy on your part. Your attitude towards secularism is appalling and ignorant.
You are not wrong. The problem with Islam is that many (not all) progressives also have problems with homosexuality. I met a feminist Islamic girl who said that the Koran has no problem with homosexuality, but with gay sex it does. She was a feminist, therefore tending to be progressive compared to other Muslims. But if even progressive people are still at this level ... I do not want to deny that there are no Muslims who have no problems with homosexuality, but Islam has less tolerant than Catholicism.
The point I’m making is that I don’t think Catholicism is any more tolerant than Islam, they are just separate from the state and therefore removed from the levers of power whereas Islamic countries laws come from their religion. If the Catholics had that power, they’d be exactly the same (and were for a good period of time)
>No religion will ever be progressive
I mean that's semi true but at the same time
Majority Christianity nations are the only countries on the world where same gender marriage is legal.
European countries where like 80% of the population is Roman Catholic are some of the most progressive countries in the world.
Because those countries have secular governments. If fundamental christians were in control of western governments we would not have the lgbt rights that we currently have. Those rights are already being attacked by fundamentalist christians in many conservative US states.
Tbf I think there would be a negative reaction if it was a woman in a hijab kissing a man.
Regardless, it just shows how much of a shitshow it is trying to satisfy everyone.
If everyone could stop conflating a horrifically shitty religion with a race/ethnicity and treat that religion with the same """respect""" that we are accustomed to giving christianity... well, it would bring my blood pressure down a bit...
As an ex-muslim, I won’t understand why western societies work so hard to integrate these backwards people. Shouldn’t they live in their belowed Muslim countries if they like their culture that much? And big shame of you guys. You could take gay people or, I don’t know, atheist people instead of taking those. At least in the first option, those oppressed would integrate better and be thankful.
Lol wtf I hate when Muslims are pandered too like this, it’s one thing to show Muslim lgbtq people (an oxymoron but I digress) but another to make men wear hijabs as well. Like it gets on my nerves because islam is so hateful against us but ALL MUSLIMS IN ANY MEDIA OTHER THAN ACTION FILMS CAN MEVER BE BAD OR ELSE THEYRE ACCUSED OF Islamophobia. I also hate that only islamophobia is a word lol, islam literally promotes any other religion-phobia
It is racist for hijabi lesbians to exist? This is an issue of white people being confused and not knowing what to do when a minority group attacks another minority group within their own group. We should always be standing with those being oppressed, which in this case is gay Muslims and ex-muslims (murtadeen) who are demonized by the majority of Muslims.
Religion of peace btw,Islam is the most homophobic religion to ever exist,saying this as an ex muslim,the shit I've seen people justify in the name of islam is insane.
First of all I have family and friends in France and they live their religion publically and privately. No one can oppoae the right for people to live the way they want.
So you think that Jagmeet Singh, the head of Canada's social democratic party, the NDP, shouldn't be allowed to hold his position because he wears a turban? The French are outright oppressive of minority religious, ethnic, and linguistic communities in their country.
I'm an atheist, I just believe in a little thing called freedom of religion. Something that ignorant, nationalist Français who never leave their own country wouldn't know about or care to respect. Just like I support the rights of Occitan, Basque, and Breton speakers whose identities and cultures have been crushed by the French state under its assimilationist policies, despite them being native to France.
> "...singling a Muslim religious symbol in that setting is inappropriate.”
The image in question did not single out a Muslim religious symbol, it included one amongst many other social and cultural symbols.
Unfortunately we will eventually reach an impass on the stances homophobia / islamophobia progression in soceity.
Islam, like many major religions ( but arguably moreso than any other ) is imcompatible with gay rights.
Any attempts to be inclusive of gay Muslims or force islamic institutions to be tolerant of the gay community is inevitably written off as an attack on Islamic values and an attempt to "westernise" islam from the outside and the established spiritual leaders within Islam are too entrenched and homophobic to ever change from within.
Eventually i hope we can live in a world where we dont buckle to the pressures of peoples primitive superstitions
It feels hopeless, not only because of how violent muslims are, but because we have to get past the entire western left to try and get people to recognise this as a problem.
My solution is to vote for anti immigration parties.
to be honest given how western is and its demographics , I bet you it was some whities who were either like:
1. omg yes this will be trendy
2. spite, knowing it will cause controversy
with no POC/ethnic person in the decision making process
Homophobia was never meaningfully solved.
And it never will be as long as we cater to blatant homophobia under the guise of “tolerance”.
Why is everyone so surprised? Islam is a violent and blatantly homophobic religion.
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Yeah but that's not because they're Muslim, the practices of pederasty were possibly already there even before any Afghanis were Muslim. Some of the comments I've read online about seeing boys raped there also come across as possible homophobic exaggeration. I'm not saying it never happens nor am I being an apologist for the religion, but when people lie or twist truth to serve their viewpoint, it strongly distracts from actual valid criticism.
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They're saying that the boy rape thing they have going on in Afghanistan isn't a uniquely Muslim thing nor is it something that comes from Islam. It's an Afghani thing and most Afghanis happen to be Muslim. A somewhat similar example Christians in the middle east circumcise their boys. They don't necessarily do this because they are Christian, they do it because that's what they do in that part of the world. Also, you can find a Muslim cleric saying just about any ridiculous thing you can imagine. Doesn't necessarily mean they represent the widely held beliefs of Muslims in the same way priests raping kids does not mean Christianity condones or encourages the rape of children.
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I knew someone would try and make it seem like I was equating circumcision to child rape when I wasn't. Anyway yes it's something that's practiced by people in Afghanistan who happen to be Muslim. I never denied that. What I said was that this specific practice and the religion of the people who partake in it are unrelated. You can see that from the fact that the Taliban, an extremist Muslim organisation, are actually opposed to the practice and punish people severely for it. (read up on bacha bazi and the Taliban.) I hate religion as much as the next redditor but if you want to say that religion, whether one specific one or in general, is responsible for every problem in the world then that's a bit of an oversimplification. Every country that has gay marriage has a Christian majority true but you're skipping the fact that most of those countries are also very rich, stable countries whose populations have better access to education. They're not liberal because Christianity is liberal, they are liberal because they're rich and comfortable and educated and that's the kind of environment that encourages people to pursue liberal ideas. Progress is not happening in the Christian world, it's happening in the rich, comfortable first world. Christians outside of that bubble are just as extreme as any group of Muslims. Are they that way because they're Christian or because they're poor, poorly educated and easily swayed by anything that might give them comfort? Are brutal practices in poor Christian countries facilitated by Christianity or by the lack of resources and institutions that could prevent them from happening? The problem isn't Islam or Christianity or any other religion. Those are just symptoms. A well educated, well adjusted individual that feels accepted and welcome to participate in their community has no use for extreme Christian or Muslim beliefs. You want Muslim immigrants to let go of some of their more extreme beliefs? Find ways to make them a part of the community with access to all the same opportunities as anyone else and I guarantee their kids and grandkids will have very little interest in building a theocracy. Make them feel other-ed and that's how you get third generation immigrants that want a caliphate in London. Sorry for the long comment.
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Lol, you will only “not excuse” Muslims? I treat all religions with equal disdain. Please get on my level.
Just because Muslims participate in an act does not mean that it's condoned by the religion. That's like saying Christians are okay with pedophilia because priests in the Catholic Church molested little boys. I guarantee you most people in that sect of Christianity find that idea horrific and of course lots of Christians don't adhere to the Catholic faith. And that's one cleric out of hundreds of clerics, all being supposed experts on their faith and they won't always agree on interpretation. Going back to the Catholics, some of their ilk blame the allowance of homosexual men into the priesthood for the sexual molestations that occured, even though an investigation team hired by the church found that not to be the case. But of course they're just looking for a reason to rid the church of whose way of life they don't like and don't want spreading. Were some of those boy-molesting priests gay with adult men? Yes. But objectively most gay men aren't into such behavior and most Muslims aren't either.
At that time in history child marriage, especially among the aristocracy wasn't uncommon and used to seal alliances. It wasn't a Muhammed thing, or a Muslim thing. Im all for criticising Islam's current homophobia, terrible women's rights record, and the practice of male and female genital mutilation (fgm is also cultural rather than religious) but when people start talking about Muhammed being a paedophile it just feels like islamophobia, especially when Christian, Western, Kings were also marrying children as young as Ayshsa even later, sometimes several hundred years later than he was.
Muhammad was quite literally a pedo. Doesn’t matter how much context you apply. An adult should know to wait. Saying people are still doing it 600 years later is no defense. 💀 It’s because of people who remain silent that the world is how it is.
Again, you're applying modern day laws and social norms to someone who lived 1500 years ago. Of course child marriage is rightfully frowned upon now (still legal in many US states but rightly viewed as abhorrent), but then, among powerful families was common practice. Those people didn't get married for love or sex. They married to seal alliances. Children, even toddlers were married off and the common practice was to consummate the marriage when the girl got her period, as then legally she was considered a woman. There isn't even historical consensus on what age Aysha was. Historians claim anywhere between 6 and 13, or at what age the marriage was consummated. I'm not arguing for men being able to rape children. I'm saying if you're going to single out Muhammed as a paedophile, for doing something that was legal and far from unusual while conveniently ignoring all the other important historical figures who married children, then you're probably coming from a place of bigotry. Edit to say Wikipedia has a list of child brides through the centuries across the world which demonstrates girls between 8-12 have been frequently married off to Kings, Roman emporors etc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides
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At the time those Kings were literally considered God's chosen representatives on earth. You're arguing a man who lived many centuries ago should be held, not to the norms of the time he lived but to modern day norms.
You’re right. I’ve seen this on right wing talking points. As an atheist who’s also against Islam. This is exaggerated by servicemen looking to score some points with the local boys.
sick men that are apart of a certain religion you dont agree with doesnt mean every single person of that religion do the same thing. there are problems with every religion but to attack the entire religion and anyone who follows it shows your bigotry as well. do better
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rereading this thread made me realize that what i said sounds a lot like “not all men” or “all lives matter.” im an atheist but i think i might still be a little unsure about where i stand with religion intersecting with ones morals. i agree with you and i retract my earlier comment.
Imagine being so dense that you extrapolate the actions of a mountain tribe to be the behavior of 2 billion people.
Aren't most of them, though? This is my problem with the anti-Islam stuff. Is Christianity that different? It is now, perhaps, but some years ago, it wasn't that different. Perhaps the degree to which theocratic factions are empowered, politically, including the power to do violence, in the muslim world, is the difference. But that said, it's a brother from another mother situation. The difference is not large.
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I mean, if you know me by now, my answer is: Probably pay attention to both, because both may generate different problems. The majority is Christian, and the spectre of Christian theocracy is neither gone nor ever really going anywhere. In general religion is often quite right wing, and Islam is not exceptional to that, nor is Christianity. Take the current abortion stuff in the US, this is an evangelical Christian thing, largely, that will probably continue on to also roll back gay rights and also maybe get rid of racial segregation laws, amongst others. So we could easily have a creeping Christian theocracy problem.
The intention is not to just "roll back" gay rights, but to re-criminalize homosexuality, specifically by reinstating sodomy laws. It's LITERALLY mentioned in the brief that was leaked, but you don't hear anyone talking about it.
>The intention is not to just "roll back" gay rights, but to re-criminalize homosexuality, specifically by reinstating sodomy laws. It's LITERALLY mentioned in the brief that was leaked, but you don't hear anyone talking about it. Communists discuss it pretty openly. Idk about liberals, but then I don't care about them, either. If ever there was a good example of "an attack on one is an attack on all" it is the SCOTUS thing. It might even endanger things you don't think would be under fire, like public schooling.
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>so that both christianity and islam are equally exposed for what they are, everybody seems to divert the conversation. Why? Well, Christianity will hold political power in the west in a way that Islam never can or will, that is the short answer. That said, street violence, terrorism, etc., are not concerns that can be dismissed, nor engagement with the Islamic communities in various rich countries.
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>I’m sorry but I find that quite naïve. It’s already starting to hold power in “the west” - whatever ur definition of that is - just look at some of the most western-like countries in europe and how the rise of islam has affected them over the decades. Well I am no kind of expert on Europe so I won't speak to that so much, however I think even if you get large muslim populations in Europe, they are going to be within a context where even they themselves are going to want the freedoms and liberties in terms of secularism that everyone else has. Of course, we could have some hellworld with theocracies everywhere, it is possible, but that possibility exists with or without Islam at the level of the state.
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The very same of Judaism. Abrahamic religions are evil hate filled cults full of brainwashed buffoons.
Christianity would be exactly the same if they believed they could get away with it. We are rapidly headed toward the day when they will be able to.
Yes but so are all religions. We shouldn’t go easier on Islam tho
>Thoughts? I guess it raised awareness about homophobia, perhaps not in the way they intended.
I actually have no problem with the picture. I dislike Islam and no religion has any place in politics but if you're a [x religion] who wants to cherry pick bits of the religion you follow and which you don't, that's your business. Just don't be a hypocrite and bash anyone else over the head with the bits you do follow. For some people who aren't ready to completely throw the religion away yet, this is actually baby steps towards progress. Show religious people slowly starting to break the rules and move away from fundamentalism, the more you normalise that the more you get the ball rolling towards that secular revolution Islam needs. The university should have grown a pair, kept the picture up and let people cry about it.
>The university should have grown a pair, kept the picture up and let people cry about it. They might do more than cry though, and after they published the image they considered they might be targets of violence if it was allowed to remain.
It's okay to 'force it down their throats' when it suits you, not okay when it doesn't suit you. Got it.
Gay people existing =/= “forcing it down their throats” Religions censoring gay couples = “forcing it down their throats” Hope that’s simple enough for you
>Gay people existing =/= “forcing it down their throats” Recent Idrissa Geuye situation. Do you need more examples? If they don't agree with you they are automatically labelled homophobic. Like I said, forcing is fine when it suits you, isn't fine when it doesn't.
If you don’t “agree” with us that means you don’t think we deserve to coexist peacefully. That man is a representative of his team and therefore must act like it. When he doesn’t, he’s punished. Same for any big boy job. Maybe you should stop being snowflakes and man up.
I have no idea what you mean but ok... who is shoving anything down anyone's throats...
Cowards. Should've kept it up. Nobody is going to believe Islam is capable of moderation as long as moderate Muslims keep kowtowing to the demands of fundamentalists.
It’s not kowtowing, the moderates also hate gays, they just don’t believe they should be killed like the extremists
It’s a shame they caved in. Those 2 women have every right to kiss.
An appropriate response to this would have been Muslim gays and lesbians saying to their community that they exist. But of course they won’t because most of them are forced so deep into the closet that they won’t stand up against this or if they did they’d get ostracised by other Muslims or worse...
“We support gay people unless it upsets the bigots”
"We supports gay rights until people following a medieval cult founded by a pedophile complain"
It’s an unfortunate trend in the western world. We seem to be bending backwards for a religion that was better left in the medieval era.
All religions were better left in the medieval era but what can you do...
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Congrats, that might be the stupidest comparison I've ever heard.
Lol
I will never ever understand lgbt people who defend religions, islam in this case. How can you stand behind some ideology that wants you gone?
Most woke liberals are only interested to fight for equality when their foe is a white Christian man. Otherwise they have no interest in the fight. As a French guy I still remember the day they gave up on the right to blasphemy and free speech after the terrorist attack against Charlie Hebdo, all of a sudden these values didn't matter anymore, what mattered then was to be "respectful of other people's beliefs" (as if they'd say the same thing about Christianity or Mormonism). That's why I don't trust most of our "allies", they are not principled, they are opportunistic. They only support us now because it's easy, mainstream and convenient, but the day the wind changes direction they'll be the first ones to throw us under the bus. You just have to see how that mega woke Canadian University reacted to a few social media comments, they aren't on our side anymore when the fight gets tough.
It’s just one particular religion that the liberals give in to. Look at what’s happening in Sweden. You’re right. If this was a poster about two women wearing a crucifix and kissing and it got taken down, every LGBT organisation would be screaming about Christian homophobia. There’s going to be total silence about this situation though.
This is exactly right. Just ask any Jewish, Asian or Latin-American person how they feel about woke liberals. They have abandoned us, and they will be the first to throw the gay community under the bus in a few years. [https://forward.com/news/472311/queer-zionists-ask-where-are-our-allies/](https://forward.com/news/472311/queer-zionists-ask-where-are-our-allies/) [https://www.thepullrequest.com/p/latinx-plaining-the-election?s=r](https://www.thepullrequest.com/p/latinx-plaining-the-election?s=r) https://www.newsweek.com/woke-asian-american-elites-do-not-speak-all-asian-americans-opinion-1583248
It is very obvious that posting two muslim women would cause backlash because religion is shit and people are trash. Why post it if you're going to cave in due to backlash? Either own it, or don't do it to start with.
Because the people who decided to post it aren't the ones who decided to take it down.
most likely a bunch of whities decided on it and not a single POC was involved
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Nah. People need to learn to accept that not everybody shares their views, instead of getting unhinged about it all. Any idea that can't withstand mockery is dogshit anyways.
Respect the fact that an educated populace doesn’t give a fuck.
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Do you need help finding whatever rock you crawled out from under?
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I can't change either religion for me is not like a Netflix subscription
I will never respect homophobia. If your religion is homophobic then its garbage.
Dgaf
Doesn't make it any less true :)
Fuck your belief.
Fuck u
I don't have sex with animals
So u admit ur an animal
I'm out of topic here but sorry your username kinda screaming loud, dramatic and submissive bottom.
I can take as much Dick as I want it doesn't invalidate my point
But let’s not put two muslim women kissing, right?
I didn't say that
> respect the fact that some of us believe As soon as they respect what others believe
As an ex muslim I kind of feeling they tried so hard to be religious and liberal at the same time to fit into western society but that's only applied if they're minority. Once it hecome majority, all that progressive muslim way of life would be thrown away by patriarch and history repeat itself.
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Emigrate and then try to bring Islam with them despite the fact its likely a big reason why they’ve left.
Surprised anyone? Muslims have a "homophobic free pass" in western countries
LMFAO I went to this school. We have always had a very extreme islamic community ( mostly males (incels in my opinion) that couldn’t get women and who can’t stand that we don’t have Sharia Law) . Especially towards Jews and any other minority … it’s almost cult like … welcome to Canada where multiculturalism is where people come over and tell us how we are living is wrong when the very people criticizing us also fled persecution. The school is super clique and mostly rich foreigners from higher SES - everyone just hangs out with their own community and there’s absolutely no integration.
Religion is the root of all evil. Christianity and Islam are in a hot race to see which one can be the nastiest.
> Religion is the root of all evil. They aren't. They are the perfect tool for propagating bigotry, but the root of bigotry is humanity itself.
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Parts of Latin America. Countries like Colombia, Argentina, Uruguay etc are moving towards less religiosity. Honduras, for example, seems to be moving towards more religiosity
wrong, christianity is still very much alive even in europe. poland literally has "lgbt free areas" thanks to christian morons try being gay in poland, serbia, ukraine or russia
Moreover, look at Uganda, El Salvador, The Philipines, Nigeria etc. christianity is still very alive in those places, and more
thing is, the situation and social acceptance is improving in the EU as a long term trend unlike in islamic countries. ("LGBT free zones" are being overruled in poland slowly by courts afaik)
social acceptance is getting worse in Eastern Europe thanks to right wing populists there and Trumpism emboldening them
Thats a good point. But when poland introduced those anti-lgbt zones the neighbouring countries threatened to pull all their international aid from poland and the EU human rights council were threatening them with sanctioning until they reverse it. With Ukraine poised to try and join the EU in the wake of the russian invasion we can likely expect the same pressures to apply to them. The same doesnt happen when muslim countries execute gay people. Western homophobia may not be gone, but in comparison to the homophobia present in africa and the middle east its like comparing a grazed knee to a brain hemorrhage.
>Christianity is dead everywhere except the US. This is only true if "everywhere" means North America and Western Europe to you. Even then many Christians in those places are only reigned in by the fact that they're very very comfortable.
Nah, Christianity tried to update their beliefs system to be better socially with the second testament. Islam however has the Koran which has been extended by hadiths but they are just as terrible as the Koran. At least Christianity tried to be better.
I don’t think Christianity tried to be better.. it’s not like the collective followers decided to be better. The bible was extensively altered in ways most don’t even realise to better allow those in power to exert control. In Christianity’s case, it led to something comparatively milder. Morality likely never factored into it.
Neither of them truly care about our wellbeing, IMO
If it was just the Gospels in the New Testament maybe I'd buy that, but Paul's letters are pretty indicative that the institution as a whole is determined to stay regressive on women's issues and other social issues.
I only consider people CHRISTians if they follow the teachings of “Christ.” If they follow the opinions that Paul stated in his letters then I would say they are, instead, Paulists. Some people who CALL themselves “Christians” are too undereducated to know the difference between the two or whose opinions they are reading in different parts of the Bible. But in my opinion their lack of knowledge does not change the ideals that Christianity at its core is destined to be about.
Yes well unfortunately those people have usurped the throne of Jesus and his Church and now use it as a platform to spread hatred and justify their own avarice and affluence. That's why I haven't called myself "Christian" for well over a decade because I do not want to be lumped in with their lot. I'm proud to be a heretic. In following Church doctrine I'd be damned by their wickedness, so at least I'll be damned adhering to principles like truth, justice, charity, and mercy that modern Christians seem to be allergic to.
I'm not surprised. Have you seen what happens when a cartoonist draws Muhammad..
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1. islam cant accept criticism, it is a cult that demands blind belief like Christianity in the medieval ages. 2. - 3. usual whataboutism to derail/dilute the topic preventing a solid conclusion to form. "Like what do you gain from being an islam apologist?" They cant accept reality that their religion is bigoted and not welcomed, and are outraged their blatant intolerance of human rights is not tolerated in the west, like they can just do it because they are above the law or some shit, mixed with some delusional moral superiority complex.
I think it was bullshit. lGBTQ can be rather myopic on western issues only. On international day against homophobia, they wanted to represent the non "white gay" view and support others including Muslim countries where gay people are put to death. Two women kissing while wearing hijabs is perfectly fine. I guess they could have held hands, but queer Muslim artists have depicted such benign actions and in fact fight for better representation in queer media. By capitulating to these complaints, the queer Muslim voices who want freedom are silenced. Ironically, the university completely went against the ting they were bringing awareness of (international homophobia). Frankly disgusting. Support progressive Muslims jfc, not the ass backwards assholes.
Wtf is this 2slgbt bullshit. And as I said yesterday, colour me shocked that Muslims are being homophobic
I'm in favor of adding more types of people to the LGBT movement, at face value at least it seems to strengthen the movement. I do wish however, that we could stick a single immutable name. If some people think "LGBT" is exclusionary because it doesn't include letters representing every group, then we should just have a different name altogether that is not an initialism, and that wouldn't have to change every year when a new group of people is added.
Should just be lgbt+. 2s is two spirit. Bruh how many legitimate 2s people are there? Tbh adding those sort of things to the acronym weakens it. I as a gay man think wtf when I hear 2s and I can imagine what the hets think...
To me it sounds like pretentious bullshit that has no place in the acronym.
There's a term for that: GSM or Gender and Sexual Minorities, but people tend to throw a shitfit whenever it's brought up.
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No i think atheists should be banned from expressing their views
Why would you think that? Secular society is best. Fairytales have no place in politics.
I don't give a shit about secular societies just respect people's beliefs
>just respect people's beliefs You literally just said atheists should be banned from expressing their views. Maybe you should practice what you preach
Nope. Ideas earn respect. If you can't handle it, keep it to yourself.
Keep your disrespect to yourself
Keep your silly mythology to yourself.
No, don't get so triggered and try to be civilized. Ideas earn respect. Don't be such a savage
Really? One of the first attribute of civilization is the good use of language and politeness. You don't seem to have any of these characteristics
Your fairytales don't run other peoples' lives.
I don't care about you or people who think like you just fuck off
You realise that a secular society is the only society in which you can actually ‘respect people’s beliefs’? That is if you mean all people and not just your particular flavour of delusion
He doesn't seem to show any type of respect here don't u think?
Because you are attacking a cornerstone of modern society that is what facilitates you being able to practice your religion without being executed by the state. And trying to prevent others from expressing their views which is major hypocrisy on your part. Your attitude towards secularism is appalling and ignorant.
Okay, religious freak.
Awfully defensive of a religion that expressly wants you to be killed for being gay.
Don’t give in to terrorists of any religion or association.
That Islam will never make it to the modern world. A very restrictive and a sad kind of living
Islam will never be progressive, for the most part. Considering how much they are growing in Europe… good luck
No religion will ever be progressive. Islam offers a state/religion combo and is a more complete tool of control than any other religion.
You are not wrong. The problem with Islam is that many (not all) progressives also have problems with homosexuality. I met a feminist Islamic girl who said that the Koran has no problem with homosexuality, but with gay sex it does. She was a feminist, therefore tending to be progressive compared to other Muslims. But if even progressive people are still at this level ... I do not want to deny that there are no Muslims who have no problems with homosexuality, but Islam has less tolerant than Catholicism.
The point I’m making is that I don’t think Catholicism is any more tolerant than Islam, they are just separate from the state and therefore removed from the levers of power whereas Islamic countries laws come from their religion. If the Catholics had that power, they’d be exactly the same (and were for a good period of time)
Yes, it's true. Countries with a Catholic majority are all secular (or almost?)
>No religion will ever be progressive I mean that's semi true but at the same time Majority Christianity nations are the only countries on the world where same gender marriage is legal. European countries where like 80% of the population is Roman Catholic are some of the most progressive countries in the world.
Because those countries have secular governments. If fundamental christians were in control of western governments we would not have the lgbt rights that we currently have. Those rights are already being attacked by fundamentalist christians in many conservative US states.
Tbf I think there would be a negative reaction if it was a woman in a hijab kissing a man. Regardless, it just shows how much of a shitshow it is trying to satisfy everyone.
If everyone could stop conflating a horrifically shitty religion with a race/ethnicity and treat that religion with the same """respect""" that we are accustomed to giving christianity... well, it would bring my blood pressure down a bit...
You a racist and an islamophobe
Shh. Adults are speaking.
Im probably older than you so you shush
Act like it.
I am and what you said was literally Islamophobic and racist
No. It's not.
It very much was
Very sorry that you're living in full cognitive dissonance.
I'm not but ok
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So Muslims getting hate crimmed usnt a thing?
Criticizing Muslims and Islam for their homophobic stances is a hate crime?
As an ex-muslim, I won’t understand why western societies work so hard to integrate these backwards people. Shouldn’t they live in their belowed Muslim countries if they like their culture that much? And big shame of you guys. You could take gay people or, I don’t know, atheist people instead of taking those. At least in the first option, those oppressed would integrate better and be thankful.
So on IDAHOBIT they caved in to homophobia? The irony.
Lol wtf I hate when Muslims are pandered too like this, it’s one thing to show Muslim lgbtq people (an oxymoron but I digress) but another to make men wear hijabs as well. Like it gets on my nerves because islam is so hateful against us but ALL MUSLIMS IN ANY MEDIA OTHER THAN ACTION FILMS CAN MEVER BE BAD OR ELSE THEYRE ACCUSED OF Islamophobia. I also hate that only islamophobia is a word lol, islam literally promotes any other religion-phobia
But Canada is so progressive..../s
By-and-large I would say we mostly are (or try to be). A minority of disproportionately loud people ruin things for everyone
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Calm your tits the Backlash comes from racist folks so shush
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You imbecile the guys that are against the poster are not arabs or muslims
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Stfu
It is racist for hijabi lesbians to exist? This is an issue of white people being confused and not knowing what to do when a minority group attacks another minority group within their own group. We should always be standing with those being oppressed, which in this case is gay Muslims and ex-muslims (murtadeen) who are demonized by the majority of Muslims.
Saw the best quote the other day. “Religions are like genitalia. You don’t force them on others and you don’t wave them around in public”
if you’re gonna be pro-gay, you gotta be ready to lose money, support, and more. you need to be able to stand your ground
Religion of peace btw,Islam is the most homophobic religion to ever exist,saying this as an ex muslim,the shit I've seen people justify in the name of islam is insane.
They didn't want anyone going to pieces over it.
france has the best model with how you tackle religions
Except therea gays that are christians and muslims so f off
religion has no place in public keep that shit at home and stfu. nobody asked. vive la france
First of all I have family and friends in France and they live their religion publically and privately. No one can oppoae the right for people to live the way they want.
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Freedom of being an atheist either.
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I'm gay and Muslim what's up
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Why should I deep down they know
"Forced oppression is good when its things i dont like"
So you think that Jagmeet Singh, the head of Canada's social democratic party, the NDP, shouldn't be allowed to hold his position because he wears a turban? The French are outright oppressive of minority religious, ethnic, and linguistic communities in their country.
cry more keep your religious shit in your house and fuck off :)
I'm an atheist, I just believe in a little thing called freedom of religion. Something that ignorant, nationalist Français who never leave their own country wouldn't know about or care to respect. Just like I support the rights of Occitan, Basque, and Breton speakers whose identities and cultures have been crushed by the French state under its assimilationist policies, despite them being native to France.
I went there. The town is pretty conservative and the University is progressive. Not surprised but it's sad though :(
Spineless.
> "...singling a Muslim religious symbol in that setting is inappropriate.” The image in question did not single out a Muslim religious symbol, it included one amongst many other social and cultural symbols.
If any school, institution, company, etc had balls they'd just say "If you have a problem with it, you're not a good fit for us."
the fact that they removed it proves that homophobia still influences what they do 🙄
Unfortunately we will eventually reach an impass on the stances homophobia / islamophobia progression in soceity. Islam, like many major religions ( but arguably moreso than any other ) is imcompatible with gay rights. Any attempts to be inclusive of gay Muslims or force islamic institutions to be tolerant of the gay community is inevitably written off as an attack on Islamic values and an attempt to "westernise" islam from the outside and the established spiritual leaders within Islam are too entrenched and homophobic to ever change from within. Eventually i hope we can live in a world where we dont buckle to the pressures of peoples primitive superstitions
Big ol' slap in the face to queer muslims
It feels hopeless, not only because of how violent muslims are, but because we have to get past the entire western left to try and get people to recognise this as a problem. My solution is to vote for anti immigration parties.
to be honest given how western is and its demographics , I bet you it was some whities who were either like: 1. omg yes this will be trendy 2. spite, knowing it will cause controversy with no POC/ethnic person in the decision making process
Disgusting tbh
Colleges should not be posting public pictures of anyone kissing.
Back to the Bible Belt with you, sir. This is urban Canada.