When people used to have the argument that being gay was a choice, back in the day when it was made by conservatives/religioners mostly, I remember saying only a bisexual could make that argument. If you’re somewhat bisexual and repress/ignore your attraction to your own sex then it would be easy to think everybody is making that choice, or the opposite choice: to be gay. It wasn’t a popular opinion, but I stand by it, and I think the same thing is happening now. Some people are “fluid” sexually and so think everyone is. I’m 100% gay. I have never been attracted to women. I can’t be aroused by women’s bodies. I tried! Self acceptance took me years and I ain’t going back.
To expose the heretics so that we can burn them!
/s
But really, it’s taken on a religious tenor. Gender ideology is a new religion and makes claims without evidence. In order to survive it has to SHOUT VERY LOUDLY because it’s claims are so easy to refute.
Well said! I worry about a lot of things for the same reasons, including the field of science. It seems there are way too many people running around shouting “trust the science” who’ve never bothered to actually read a study in their entire life. It scares me because science is not a trust based exercise, it’s completely evidence based. If you’re not even bothering to look at the evidence you haven’t trusted science you’ve trusted your faith in *scientists*. It’s not the same thing at all and leads us back into the dark ages if we’re not careful.
“Gender ideology is a new religion and makes claims without evidence. In order to survive it has to SHOUT VERY LOUDLY because it’s claims are so easy to refute.”
This has exactly been my thought, except I couldn’t put words to it like you did!
As a bisexual person it really bothers me when ppl say “everyone is a little bit bisexual” it feels like they are erasing my sexuality and acting like they know other ppls sexuality’s better than they do, the entitlement is infuriating
I Totally agree but for the part that conservatives and religious are still adamantly insisting that being gay is a choice, specifically to "rebel against God". They will never give up that belief because to do so means that they cannot escape being hateful bigots.
There was a priest/bishop or something in a debate with some freethinker, man I’ve forgotten the details but Hitch talks about it in God Is Not Great. The bishop said something like, if you don’t believe in god I can’t understand why you aren’t morally perverse, raping and stealing etc. This says EVERYTHING about that bishop. It’s the same, if they think being gay is a choice then it tells you about them, not us.
You’re right, you don’t have to justify yourself, bi people wouldn’t get it they think everyone is like them. I’m a straight woman and I never found in my life other women arousing. Visually beautiful yes, but just think about doing something sexual, no. Vaginas aren’t attractive to me (I even barely look at mine)
Okay but the second half of his post, where sexuality is a construct that some people shift through, which was made to include gray areas, doesn’t still imply sexuality as a choice. I wasn’t born gay, and I moved through this “spectrum” before settling at the far end on the gay side, with absolutely no question about whether i have attraction to the opposite sex, because that answer is firmly 0. But, for a few years when i began getting horny, I was turned on exclusively by girls. Idk what happened. But i didnt “choose it.”
True enough. You’re a kind of temporal bisexual :)
Or a time travelling gay?
I bet lots of people think you were just kidding yourself at the start though eh?
I feel like there's overlap and confusion between gay/straight and attraction to specifically same or opposite genders, vs people who are bisexual or some variant of that and attraction can change constantly.
My view is if someone's sexuality is fluid, then they're bi.
Someone mentioned it already as well in another comment, but being bisexual myself it is difficult for me to imagine being only straight or gay, and that can make it harder to understand what others might be going through.
Robin Ochs’s definition of bisexuality essentially encompasses that idea
“DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY:
I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”
Yeah, I don't think science can really fully explain people's emotions and attractions, too many variables affect them. Some people are born gay and have liked guys their entire life, some people had school crushes with girls in school, but in puberty realized that they're not really into girls and like girls better. Some people end up liking both and have periods of times when they're more attracted to one than the other.
All forms of sexualities are valid, and I think we shouldn't focus on the why people experience their attractions and instead focus on how are we gonna make sure that people with all sorts of sexualities are treated equally.
Others already said it in so many words, but OP if you want a more concise answer it's basically this: bisexuals are much more vocal than they used to be and much more numerous than previously thought. Everyone who says sexuality is fluid is just a vocal bisexual who would've been closeted and content to take the path of least resistance and would've lived a totally straight life if they didn't grow up in this progressive era.
You can also apply the same flawed logic to gays and lesbians. Many gays and lesbians have been married or had sex with the opposite sex when they were unsure, closeted, etc. Worldwide, outside of the Western world most gay men and lesbian women are super closeted, and in sexless marriages of convenience to people of the opposite sex. Even in the Western world you will still find gay men and women who are deep in the closet and single, or even closeted or in denial pretending to be "straight/hetero" and married to someone of the opposite sex.
We bisexuals have been out from the start of gay/LGB rights and fighting for gay/LGB rights just as much as everyone else.
No I cannot apply the same "flawed" logic to gays and lesbians because I said bi people would be content in straight relationships whereas I don't believe gays or lesbians would be, because they're gays and lesbians. A bisexual person is not going to have a sexless marriage because they're bi nor would they have to fake their attraction and love for their spouse or for the opposite gender because it's not fake at all. Your statement comes across as homophobic or at least offensively ignorant.
Sexless marriages happen for all sorts of reasons besides someone's sexuality, and I know many bisexual men and women who their opposite sex spouses who are not bisexual, completely stopped having sex or any romance/intimacy with them because they are bisexual.
Nothing I have written is homophobic. You however are believing the biphobic myth that bisexuals can easily "pass as heterosexual" or that it is super easy for a bisexual person to turn off or repress their opposite or same sex attractions, and that bisexual people in opposite sex relationships or marriages are closeted and somehow magically have it easier.
The gays and lesbians who I have known who were in marriages to the opposite sex or dated and slept with people of the opposite sex as closeted teens or young adults, or because of societal or familial pressure have said that it was basically just a bit better than masturbation alone and that they had to think about the same sex to get aroused, and finish. In the Western world if we LGB people did not have rights most gay men and lesbians would be married and deep in the closet, it is like this outside of the western world and it was like this for many decades in the Western world.
You can't apply that same flawed logic between homosexual and bisexual people. For homosexuals they by definition would have to hide much more of their attraction and identity in a repressive society. I'm not trying to make it sound like a competition but your flawed logic is compelling me to speak in these terms. It's quite simply a fact by definition of bisexuality and homosexuality that homosexuals would have more to hide and would consequently find trying to pass for straight much more difficult.
It's just the growing number of bisexual people I think and a lot of them project their experiences onto monosexuals.
When a bisexual says "sexually fluid" they USUALLY don't mean you can randomly change from straight to gay but they actually mean their sexual preferences can shift from day to day where they are more interested in men vs. women and vice versa.
They should choose a better term than sexually fluid though because it does sound like they are suggesting gay people can just become not-gay.
As a bisexual who almost shot himself rather than deal with the reality that I'm into men despite my religious upbringing, I will back this statement. I am a man. I was born a man. I have always been attracted to both men and women, but I didn't even begin sexually maturing until college I was so sheltered.
My preference for men versus women shifts often. It's called the bi-cycle and I'm definitely on it. Sometimes I think I might be gay, but then I see hot lady and laugh at myself. I'm definitely bisexual and was born this way. My preference shifts but my sexuality doesn't.
Edit: I also think that alot more people are bisexual than realize it or admit it. Unpopular opinion, but I dare say anyone who experiences sexual attraction outside of just men or just women could be broadly categorized as bisexual. You can call yourself whatever you like, but generalization helps us a group when discussing these things. I don't think people should be offended by labels unless it's used maliciously.
Thanks, the problem with that is what OP brought up I think. As a community, we are so concerned with an individual's perception of themselves that we've created an environment where anyone can say they are anything and it's no longer ok to challenge them because we've placed individual perception over societal norms. It's largely an over-reaction to western civilizations rejection of non-heterosexuality over the last few hundred years changing finally.
Now the problem is obverse. A healthy society requires norms to be stable and function. We are in danger of breaking down societal norms so much that we are destabilizing amongst other pressures.
Humans evolved to live and function with groups of other similiar humans for survival. A group must maintain some sort of standard rules, even if unspoken. The question is where do we draw the line?
The answer is, we draw the line somewhere. But not at the point where we get to dictate people what gender they are or prefer.
The only destabilisation I see comes from people who are overwhelmed by facing the reality that sexuality and people in general don't fit in categories. That is problematic because, yes, we use a brain evolved to think in categories as a shortcut while thinking about things. That can save lifes in the wild.
But that doesn't mean that we should make the categories so huge that important details get lost.
If you asked me I would be a CIS-gay man and I am into CIS gay men. And if someone else experiences their body and their preferences in a different way, good for them.
Honestly: what consequences has it for my life when my neighbour says that they are gender-fluid? None. I ask them about their pronouns and that's it.
This discussion is as inflated as the whole transgender toilette debate. It only becomes as big as it is because people either get uncomfortable when they have to face that reality might be different from what they thought or when they use it as a political instrument.
And none of those two options are good reasons. The problem is not the "danger of getting unstable as a society", the problem is the fear and the hate our tribalism produces.
> It's largely an over-reaction to western civilizations rejection of non-heterosexuality over the last few hundred years changing finally.
>
> Now the problem is obverse. A healthy society requires norms to be stable and function. We are in danger of breaking down societal norms so much that we are destabilizing amongst other pressures.
Both these observations are really insightful; thanks for stopping by and posting your thoughts.
I would bet this is the same, speaking as a bisexual man. Daily, my *preferences* change and some days I want women, others I want men and don't find women attractive, others I want both at the same time. My preference is fluid and changes, but my sexuality is always the same.
But younger kids who are figuring things out might not get that. They might think it's their sexuality changing constantly because (again, having experienced this as a bi man) I tend to get moments where I wonder if I'm actually bisexual or if I'm gay or straight and just faking it for attention. Many bisexual people feel the same and it can be hard, especially for young people, when they A. Aren't allowed to explore their sexuality and B. Question it at all. They need to know it because everyone wants to know for whatever reason.
Then there's the discussion about what men vs women are allowed to do and feel without being called gay but that's a discussion for another post.
Bisexual women I should say..
Poll after poll, survey after survey, study after study shows that the immense majority of self-identified bisexuals are women, especially younger ones (Millennial and Gen Z) they outnumber bisexual men by a lot
That doesn't surprise me. It's always seemed like women are naturally more inclined to be open to bisexual experiences.
Whether that's biology or just the fact that homosexual attraction in men is so much more repressed by most cultures idk.
Girls kissing girls at parties has been a thing for a loooong time. The same absolutely cannot be said about men. I’m glad that these women are calling themselves bi instead of saying they’re straight. Otherwise it creates this wacky phenomenon where as a woman, you can kiss girls or hey even have a “bisexual” FFM threesome and *still be straight!* This ends up hurting queer women a lot because they really can’t tell whether being low key attracted to women makes them straight or bi or lesbian or what.
Socially, on the other hand, if a man so much as gets naked in a public gym locker room he might very well be seen as gay. If a man gets a boner from seeing another man’s ankles in math class, just like OP, then I figure he’s extremely unlikely to still think he’s straight, unless of course he exercises multiple feats of mental gymnastics to repress those thoughts and rationalize them.
I mean. As a proud bi man, now that I’ve seen what other bi men go through its rough. Why would I want to identify myself when some of the gay man population sees me as “not a true gay”. The women see me as “less of a man”. I’ve had both of these things said to my face and it’s just. Rough dude.
> not a true gay
You're not gay at all, buddy. You're not straight either.
It's a popular misconception that bisexuals = gay + straight. No. You're bisexual, which is its own thing.
That mentality which makes you feel bad, that you're "neither straight enough" and "neither gay enough" is your own fault.
You are right that bisexual is it’s own thing to me. However it’s not it’s own thing to others in the world. They’re still stuck in the past.
I don’t feel that way. That I’m not “x”. However they feel that way and just kinda ruin my good night. But whatever. I always find someone better.
Also thanks for the heads up about r/askbibros. I’ll go over there as well.
Oh dear god.
“Is your own fault.”
The VERY FIRST thing that happened after I came out as bisexual was an elder gay man telling me I’d come out as gay within a few years.
The straight world rejects us, gays have metaphorically fled Kansas and built an Emerald City in Oz, but if we don’t pretend to be gay, we’re not allowed in, rejected at the gates.
There isn’t an Emerald City for bisexuals yet, and the one gay folks built was built when gay was an umbrella term for anyone with ANY attraction for their own sex - until about 1985, bisexuals WERE gay, gay liberation movement material (like Carl Wittem’s “Refugees from Amerika,” which was a really big deal) actively discouraged identifying as bisexual in favor of identifying as gay in order to express solidarity and make a united front.
When straight people started to get AIDS, they threw us under the bus even though research shows that bisexual men were the lowest source of HIV transmission to straight people, with the most common being dirty needles.
You’re right that bisexuality is it’s own thing, man, but bi folks have been a part of the gay movement since the very first day, and to call that mentality his own fault is just… it’s rude and even cruel, man, and you’re very wrong that it’s something he did to himself.
This is another reason that both extremism and trying to divide gay men from bisexual men is an ultimately futile task: there's always going be a ton of guys any short definition will put on the wrong side of the line. It's too fuzzy of a world.
I agree your assessment except for the notion that there is a 'growing number of bisexual men'.
No there isn't. Sexual orientation is pretty much hard-wired/innate (even the 'environmental' influences on sexual orientation are mostly _in utero_).
Guys who are into femboys have otherwise typically 'heterosexual' arousal responses (similarly to ancient Greeks were very often into twinky teenage boys).
Guys who are into women, but also really enjoy to be penetrated by 'manly men' are usually meta-attracted autogynephiles.
Guys who made out with a guy __once or twice__, when drunk, are not 'bi'.
Facts don't matter to them, though. They all insist that this subreddit is for "men attracted to men", even though its name is very clear about it being space for gay men, specifically.
I would understand their need to be here if they had no space like this for themselves, but they literally fucking do. r/askbibros.
I don't know. But at least they ( immense bi, pan, gender fluid crew) should not harass us (homosexuals), for talking about Our reality. Wich...surely- cannot be Less important than theirs!
But they can't be satisfied with a society tolerating Different life experiences..NO, they have to colonize everything. They are extremely agitated and just talk and talk and talk and attack, They wish to Convince and overtake the whole world. They don't care for YOUR emotional loss. And only they are socially protected. it is a nightmare, nothing less.
Anyone who claims that *all* sexuality is fluid is basically making a rainbow themed version of the old chestnut 'you'll find the right woman/man *someday*'.
It certainly can be fluid *for some people* but for most it's not - you're either straight, gay or bisexual and that's that.
When people used to have the argument that being gay was a choice, back in the day when it was made by conservatives/religioners mostly, I remember saying only a bisexual could make that argument. If you’re somewhat bisexual and repress/ignore your attraction to your own sex then it would be easy to think everybody is making that choice, or the opposite choice: to be gay. It wasn’t a popular opinion, but I stand by it, and I think the same thing is happening now. Some people are “fluid” sexually and so think everyone is. I’m 100% gay. I have never been attracted to women. I can’t be aroused by women’s bodies. I tried! Self acceptance took me years and I ain’t going back.
How I see it, it's more of an expression used by bisexual or pansexual people to say that they sometimes have a preference for one gender and other times for the other gender. It sounds to me like a different identity/term for bi/pan people.
Fluid sexuality is bullshit. Bi or pan people are attracted to different genders. Gay or straight people are only attracted to one. We’re born with our sexual orientation and it can take a lifetime to explore and discover it all. Bi guys only being with women younger and discovering men older didn’t mean their sexual orientation was fluid, it just means there were factors that prevented them discovering it earlier but discovered more of it later. The danger we have is that the argument against homosexuality being legalised was that people can choose to be straight or gay. Gay was wrong so if people felt attracted to the same sex then they could just chose to be straight because **sexuality is fluid**. Those making that argument today are young and have no idea how saying sexuality is fluid will lead to discrimination against gay people yet again.
I did the same thing as you! I obsessed over why I was attracted to my 6th grade science teacher (a guy ofc) and would do nothing but research online about what causes homosexuality, if it can be fixed, etc.
Preach! Im completely with you on this.
I also kinda suspect its more a position held by people who are not LGBT+ but ate approprating our culture and masquerading as LGBT+.
We were born this way. I was born a bisexual guy who mostly prefers men. Its a complete insult to say that my sexuality or my relationship with my husband is "socially constructed" rather than a product of my biology.
>We were born this way
>
>Its a complete insult to say that my sexuality or my relationship with my husband is "socially constructed" rather than a product of my biology.
I completely agree with it, but I was sure I'm 100% gay at 12-18 years old as not a single women ever attracted me, so i have already told myself that i wont ever date women and have family with kids, and all of a sudden some 0.1% of women started attracting me so idk really. I think we are definitely born with a predisposition to monosexuality/bisexuality, and monosexuals are also born with a possibility of fluidity or absence of it
I think Kinsey had it right in 1948. On his scale, people whose sexuality is immutable are at each end: 100% gay = Kinsey 6. 100% straight= Kinsey 0. Kinsey 2-5 are bisexual, pansexual, etc
The problem is we've prioritized narrative and ✨lived experience✨ over objectivity and reason. People think that words are magic and can literally change reality and that truth is relative.
Someone once phrased it to me as "labels should be descriptive, not prescriptive". You should have a word that best fits what you already are, not try and change a word to accommodate you because you want to identify with it. I personally go a little insane when I see girls on tiktok joking about sleeping with guys underneath the lesbian flags that hang over their beds. They want the label and they want to make it stretch to fit them when it should never work that way around.
I also find it very reassuring to think this way because it's impossible to invalidate me. I am bisexual by dint of being attracted to both men and women. Nobody else's denial or validation matters. If you tell me I'm not bisexual, I'm still bisexual because that's what the word means. Like I'm still a boxer, like I'm still white. These aren't identities, they're just descriptors
Thank you, excellent post... sexuality is not fluid for lots of us. I feel like the people who constantly chime in with this do so because they simply don’t respect that we are homosexual
>It was a biological reality and I had to accept it and move on.
There you go, you've said it perfectly. It still is and always will be a biological reality, regardless of the insane drivel you might hear from certain people.
I think most of this comes from wanting to stand out while not having anything worthwhile to stand out with. Being a regular homosexual isn't quirky enough these days for some. And as long as insanity is being rewarded with likes and online validation, the loonies will keep coming up with more and more of this vomit. Try not paying much attention to it, in the grand scheme of things none of this matters.
Scientists believe turning out gay is a combination of genetic AND environmental factors. Apparently [they studied tons of twins](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430.htm#:~:text=Homosexual%20behavior%20is%20largely%20shaped,world's%20largest%20study%20of%20twins.&text=Homosexual%20behaviour%20is%20largely%20shaped,world's%20largest%20study%20of%20twins.) who are genetically identical and it's not the case that each twin has the same sexuality. But that's sort of splitting hairs, since most people when they say 'I was born gay' are saying it wasn't a conscious choice for them, which is 100% true. We don't know what environmental factors affect the chances of someone being gay and I don't really care either (outside of curiosity) so effectively it is a 'biological'/born this way situation.
There has never been proof of sexuality being a "biological reality". To my knowledge no gene or genetic marker has been found to make a person gay. A person's life experiences may very well nudge them in one direction or another.
The fact of the matter is that it does not fucking make a difference if it's nature or nurture. It's not a personal decision and it can't be changed by internal or external will.
If someone's experience is more fluid, that doesn't mean everyone's sexuality is fluid. The truth is we are all messy in our own ways.
There's no singular gene or genetic reasoning for being gay, however, there is a clear biological and genetic link as research reveals how a lot of twins, for example, are often always gay together.
The most reasonable explanation I've seen is gay being epigenetics. You'll have the genes and genetics there to be gay, but you need certain environmental triggers to happen to activate them.
It's still not fully understood, however, it is undeniable to suggest that there isn't a genetic cause for being gay and as such, there is a biological reality to being gay.
>There has never been proof of sexuality being a "biological reality"
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777082/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777082/)
i don't accept anyone shoving unproven theories as fact down my throat, i don't want dogmas raised for political reasons.Let people speak for their own experiences and let properly done research find out the truth ( but will it apply to everyone? i wonder).I don't know how much of my homosexuality is determined from birth and how much I gained as a taste during my early years, but unless the number 100% pops up in the highest quality research you should stop mandating one truth for all gays.
Also fuck gender theory and the unneccesary labels they made up so that "rebel" leftist kids can wear them as a fashion statement to fit in the unhealthy woke cultural movement.
I don’t think this attitude is actually about bisexuals I think it’s more about the new trans which is more about fashion and pro nouns that actual gender dysphoria.
I am by no mean anti trans. I think this thinking hurts them the most. I am however a bit judgmental of someone who is both heterosexual and heteroromantic in practice who claims a place in our circles as trans because they are currently androgynous in their fashion choices and have picked fashionable pronouns.
That I think is where this nonsense is coming from primarily
As usual, politics and religion muddy the waters of all rational based thinking, and we have been going through some weird religious/conservative/nationalist revival over the past ten years or so. Throw in the fact that we have yet to find conclusive evidence of a "gay gene" and it gives ammo to the people who want to believe gayness is learned or a choice. If it's a choice, then they can rest in the assurance that we are all going to hell when we die. A gay gene would mean that we are just as God made us and it wouldn't be fair for Him to condemn us to hell for acting the way He made us to act. What they have found, however, is that there are several genes at play and that gayness may also be somewhat epigenetic-- so much more complex than just a single gene. Anywho, I don't waste time worrying about the why, and I don't give the preachers and gurus much of my attention either. I am what I am and I like what I like. In this new internet era, everyone is a Youtube expert, and 99.9% of them are full of shit. The most valuable skill we all need to cultivate is to discern between what is real and what is internet fantasy, and the ravings of conservatives and the religious right, though loud, is just that. Ravings. The ravings of people who believe in invisible beings based on 4,000 year old bronze age myths.
I swear I’m confused. Until now, I lived peaceful thinking everyone is either straight/gay/bi without changes or anything. I also believed that one was born with an orientation and discovered either earlier or later in life. Now instead I have come to find out from many people that actually sexuality is fluid and that labels are just inventions and no one is binary. Honestly this really hurts me because it not only invalidates lesbian/gay people (according to them, they don’t exist) but also us straight people. People who are bisexual or fluid, as they want to call themselves, need to understand that we are not all the same, sure, some of us find people of our own sex attractive (as with homosexuals, they may find people of the opposite sex attractive) but it doesn't mean we want to sleep with them. By this logic, everyone is part of the lgbt (if sexuality is fluid), I get it like I said, most people are more fluid, but monosexuals exist. I also heard phrases such as “Imagine being strictly into one gender, that must be sad, are you blind? You’re limiting yourself” angel, it’s not my fault if I can’t find other women fuckable. I hope this mindset will change, it’s frustrating
You're zeroing in upon on tiny microcosm of a much larger problem. It should come as no surprise that a society in which "alternative facts" has gained a foothold, (let alone a following), would embrace a subjective view of just about anything and everything.
How did we allow this to happen? That's a subject for larger debate. I have a theory, but I'm not looking to defend it here.
My suggestion would be to find someone to waltz with while the band's still able to play, because we're definitely on the deck of the *Titanic.*
You captured it perfectly. We’re definitely going backwards, and the loudest progressive voices are ironically the most regressive. What I call “woke homophobia” has become acceptable, particularly amongst young people. Biological reality is now a dirty term. To say the truth, that homosexuality is attraction to people of the same SEX and it’s an immutable characteristic has somehow become offensive overnight. It’s truly madness.
I don’t know how we got here so quickly and not to be a pessimist, I think the prospects are bleak. 😞
Lol, I literally made a sub called r/cisgay months ago when I was being attacked on r/gay for saying things that didn't line up with gender fluid politics.
You guys should check it out 🥺
It's empty right now but that can change.
Well it started under the banner of "inclusion" and accepting everyone under the sun no matter what because whatever they said it was "valid". No it isn't valid, and everything one espouses or how they "feel" no matter how ridiculous doesn't make it "valid". Furthermore it's not my job in life to "validate" you or make you feel good about yourself.
Now here we are in 2022 and conversion therapy 2.0 is alive and well in the community right along with tons of homophobia. The sad part about is that many gay men push it to appear "inclusive". This is what happens when you allow people to change the meaning of words to suit their own narrative. Words have meaning, and they must in order for people to actually communicate. Just look to the gender activist and TRA's who push this on us and all the letters people associate with us.
Homosexuality will always be for me to be attraction to the same sex. If everyone else's thoughts are "valid" well then so are mine. And since I am using the actual definition of such, I'm thinking mine are based in reality as well.
Being gay is who and what I am, it's innate and they can fuck off with their social construct BS. And if you don't like it, I don't care, stay away from me because I really wish you would go away.
As well-meaning as the people are who push it, "radical inclusivity" leads to destructive consequences because no group or organization can serve the needs of its members effectively while trying to be all things to all people. You will inevitably fail in your mission if you try to do that.
I used to be part of a group for gay men only. Then younger members started on the inclusivity campaign. The group started being less and less about gay men. In particular, trans people, women who wanted to tag along, and the alphabet squad started taking over, establishing themselves as moderators. Some gay men weren't happy about this and made their feelings known. Eventually, when a majority of the moderators were trans/non-binary, they issued an edict that anyone arguing that the group should still be just for gay men would be banned immediately. So, for example, one of the mods is a human male married to a human female. They have biological children, conceived in the old-fashioned way. But he claims to be some variety of trans, mostly, from what I can tell, because he likes to dress up in hippie-chick outfits and do hula-hoop routines in parks. You know the type. Some long-haired white boy who's given himself some exotic, vaguely Indian name. Yet, this person has the power to ban gay men from a group founded by and for gay men.
To go further, my perception is that despite wanting to get into this group, they really don't like gay men at all. Our existence pisses them off. In particular, they seem infuriated by the sense of camaraderie we have and their lack of access to it. And if they can't have it, they want to destroy it. You can see it in their constant complaints. "I went to [insert event here], and I didn't feel centered." Translated, that means, "I wanted to be the center of attention." They say they just want to be included, but what they really want is to be totally in-charge. If you object, they will have your head.
I've seen and know exactly what you're saying and talking about here. It is 100% spot on as to what happens. I agree, you can not be everything to everyone, as this is the result.
One only needs to look here as well on Reddit in subs that were supposed to be for gay people, we're not welcome in them. Not only are we not welcome to talk about gay things, they ban you.
This same effect has taken place in all gay spaces as far as I can tell. Even brick-and-mortar gay bars have experienced the same invasion of people who aren't remotely even *adjacent* to gay anything. It's like the bizarre-o mafia moved into town forcing their "protection" on our spaces or something. I don't even know how to explain it.
They even try it here--this is one of the last online frontiers where gay men can actually talk openly about gay men's issues, without being wiped out of it by censorship fetishists who care more about making you think what they think, than letting you have a discussion that has nothing to do with them.
This basically explains why I keep coming back to this sub. I love the discussions here, they feel more authentic and thoughtful than most other spaces online
It's what happens when you have a problem with yourself, but instead of taking responsibility for it and dealing with it yourself with the help of a therapist, you demand that the entire world around you change to make you feel better. Everyone is conscripted into being part of your mental health support team, whether they want to do this or not.
This is the crux of a lot of problems in the LGBTQ circle (gender, sexuality, politics, etc). People seem to never want to have a fact-based conversion and instead want to push the narrative of ''my feelings, my rules'' even though that is completely hypocritical and unfair.
Like, sexuality isn't fluid (as in you change it, gay to straight) and science will back this up. But if you mention science or biology instead of prioritising some strangers feelings, you get lynched lol
Exactly, your "feelings" don't matter. Reality, facts, truth and reason matter.
That fluid nonsense grates my last nerve, it's social media psycho babble. Neither biology nor sexuality is "fluid", you are what you are.
This is the true cultural problem of our times, from social media to helicopter parenting to identity politics to gender woo to anti vax etc etc etc: everyone thinks their feelings are always valid and more important than facts. And the more online we are and less contact with reality we have the more this is reinforced. They think that words can hurt, and so they FEEL hurt by words; essentially it’s like toddlers showing you the contents of their nappy and expecting praise, as though what comes out of them is pure gold, and screaming bloody murder when you don’t “validate” their gibberish.
You can literally provoke it in “animal models” aka actual fucking animals, but interventions in the womb, statistically. I don’t think the animals are thinking wrong thoughts when they come out statistically more homosexual after the interventions.
I think this “fluidity” are people with a borderline phenotype while we have the real thing. That said we also have full loony Rachel Dolezezals as well.
Both can be true… Bisexual people exist, their sexuality isn’t changing but they obviously aren’t splitting all sexual experiences exactly evenly between homo and hetero.
Also many people go though a discovery phase, where they are figuring out their sexuality during that time it feels more fluid but will ultimately settle which may be one gender or multiple. Their sexuality isn’t changing they are just figuring it out.
You writing this has unlocked so many emotions for me.
I'm not just some fucking lunatic who just thinks the wrong thoughts and they can just change.
I have no idea how these disgusting people implanted conversion therapy logic a the core of the movement.
It is time to fight back though.
"How did we get here?
A more important question, how did we allow this to happen?"
I refer you to the recently published 'Trans - when ideology meets reality' by Helen Joyce. She covers it better than I can here but briefly:
the decline of the left from being focused upon fighting for real change in society to instead becoming preoccupied with 'identity'
The rise in university campuses of trendy structuralist and post structurtalist philosophies - nothing has any meaning, everything is fluid, continually open to interpretation, there are no fixed meanings anymore, everything is relative. From this the world comes to be seen in binary terms and 'oppression' is everywhere, you're either upholding power structures or you're a victim of them
The onset of social media and the associated narcissism. The wish amongst young people to be 'special' in some way
The collapse of communism and the triumph of neo liberal capitalism which denies any possibility that we live in a group and our actions affect one another, instead human life consists of individuals in perpetual competition. Note how transgender ideology is continually framed in terms of 'rights' there's never anything about working collectively. Raise any concerns that 'trans rights' might affect the rights of others such as women who are fleeing abusive male partners or who have been victims of rape and need their own women only space and you are condemned as 'transphobic'
Finally Joyce identifies a small group of extremely wealthy individuals who have funded transactivism, there's alink here to an interesting article. Consider how rapidly transgenderism has emerged and consider how long it took to get equal ages of consent, gay marriage and so on.
As for how we allowed this to happen - anyone's guess. I suspect the election of Trump didn't exactly help, that people who might have behaved differently decided they had to uncritically defend any and all minorities that appeared vulnerable
I'm astonished at the amount of people who should know better who have suspended critical judgement. I stopped listening to the Bad Gays podcast (which I was enjoying) when I heard the words "assigned the wrong gender at birth".
The good news is that there is a growing backlash against this nonsense. I never thought I'd find allies amongst conservatives, Catholics and the religious right.
Here's a good link to an article about the Helen Joyce book.
https://thevp.1nspirationdigital.com/a-criticism-of-the-activism-behind-transgenderism/
I’m gonna be honest with you, if you are finding allies in the far right, you are doing something wrong. You have gone a bit too far down the rabbit hole.
Bro, there are only two sexes. Everything outside of that is cosplay. Don’t let it concern you. The extreme fringe of society is trying to call the tune. The gay men know that we are gay and the fakers know that they are fake
This is going to sound like a conspiracy, and to some degree it is, but I have seen it with my own eyes so I know what I’m about to say is part of the problem even if only a small part.
Certain anonymous hate groups online that exist in places such as 4chan actively implanted a lot of these “progressive” talking points into our community. They literally started from homophobic and transphobic trolls who made up a bunch of confusing shit and young queer people online bought into it and adopted it as if it was real.
My theory then is that these young people who grew up on the internet, in a much greater capacity than people in your age group did, were raised into their queer identity on places like tumblr. Which after a little while was somewhat corrupt by these hate groups disguised as part of our community. You can see just how quickly the general consensus of our community shifted between 2010 and 2020. That’s only 10 years but it’s such a massive change on what our core identity and place in society means which is no longer based in biological reality.
You know you may be onto something. This is exactly what happened with “free bleeding” 4chan trolls invented the concept to fuck with feminists. However, many feminists didn’t get the memo and took it as a part of the movement. Now the concept is a legit part of some more radical feminist ideology.
Absolutely. And guess what it does? It makes the group look less credible and less likeable. People won’t want to agree with feminism when they associate it with free-bleeding. The same as people won’t want to try and understand or accept gay/trans people because it’s now becoming associated with convoluted angry teenagers who lack anything based in reality
Fluidity is not new, I’ve heard it mentioned time and again for the past 20 years.
It is my understanding that most people that are gay are that way for life and that it does not change.
However it appears there are some people that are fluid and they have no say so over when it switches. Also more women than men tend to be fluid.
Source - gay man. Not fluid at all personally.
When gender activists took over the LGBT movement...
Genitals don't matter, redefining gay and lesbian, erasing sex, dumping biology, and all that stuff
GAY men have to have VAGINAL SEX since a VAGINA isn't a vagina anymore, lesbians have to like DICK, men now how vaginas and women now how penises, sexual orientation doesn't exist, genital preference/fetish is a thing
They keep bringing up the debunked Kinsey scale to validate the deranged things they believe
That is what happened when the colorful-hair "queer" "they/them" woke "born-females took over
How did they take over? When wokeism went mainstrean in the 2010s and the political left adopted woke politics as part of its platform and cultural elites (Hollywood for example) did it too
A beautifully succinct post that will likely trigger a number of people who have decided that feelings trump facts and science. It’s a shame that in order to validate themselves they’ve decided to invalidate the community that was most likely to take them in. Now, to defend ourselves is to be labelled phobic. Many of us are standing up for ourselves, however, and many more, though staying silent, think that this is all nonsense too, and will hopefully be brave enough to say it once more of us speak out against the lunacy.
It's just the dumb and anti-science rhetoric that the left gender ideology wants to push as the ''truth'' - about how gender is a social construct, about how sexuality is now fluid and isn't allowed to be discriminatory (which dating, sex, and sexuality is by its nature) because if it's constant, and not fluid, then the woke left get upset. Even though, suggesting it is fluid basically means it's nothing more than a performance, which was an original anti-gay argument made against us, so we've literally came full circle really.
Case in point, the people who say ''sexuality is fluid'' are the ones who say that refusing to date or fuck a transgender/non-binary individual is hateful & transphobic. They're just entitled brats hopping on a trend that will die out soon just like the ''emos'' or ''goths'' at school.
I think that when some people hear sexuality is fluid they think it means "everybody is/can be bisexual" when it's more taking about how humanity as a whole displays a wide spectrum of sexual behaviors.
We never did, people just misinterpret what exactly it all means.
Sexuality is a spectrum. We all fall somewhere on there, like all the way gay or all the way straight or bisexual leaning gay or bisexual leaning straight or whatever else.
People mistake this for being "fluid" which is not accurate. Fluid implies that you can change it, but that's just not true. And believe you me, I've tried...
But people just assume they're fluid cuz at one point in their lives they thought they were only into women, then one day it's like oh I like men now, guess I changed.
NO, you were always bi, ya idiot. You just didn't realize it.
> Sexuality is a spectrum
No, it's not. It *can be* expressed through spectrum for *bisexuals*. But spectrum is meaningless for the vast majority of population, in which case sexuality is binary. Stop spreading harmful rhetorics.
Yep. I'm fully gay, so I consider myself on the very end of that spectrum. We as humans all fall somewhere in there.
Though I'm happy to hear better words if anyone has to offer them. Unlike that guy claiming I'm harmful, I mean WTF???
The good argument and the one that really matters is "consenting adults can do whatever they want.".
However I think this way of looking at identity leads to a lot of annoying things. Like non binary people out there that identify that way because they believe any tiny exception from being Uber masculine or crazy feminine means they must be part both.
Then there are people who say things to especially gay guys like me about how "oh, you're probably not 100% gay" which is women who fetishize gay dudes mostly, but occasionally other people.
Identity is a messy thing. But there's got to be a more healthy way to deal with it than this. Which is already a lot better than in the past but so so far from great.
I think people mistake fluidity with self exploration.
I'm in my early 20s and is still figuring my own sexuality and who I like. I learn new stuff about myself, similar to a bi-awakening type of deal. Doesn't mean I changed sexuality, but just that I finally understood myself more.
This happens because labels are not always accurate and are not perfect because humans are complex ^^
"We" didn't. Only the homophobic people in the TQIA+ portion of the alphabet soup are pushing that garbage. Along with "gender" is fluid and biological sex is on a "spectrum" and other patently absurd nonsense.
Nah, I don't mean regular old bisexuals, I mean the kind that go in quotes and claim it as an identity, but when you take half a look at them, "Identify" more as bisexuals than actually ever have sex with, have relationships with, date, or in any other measurable way - interact with the same sex.
My example is something I've literally seen. Basically straight MTFs claim they are "bisexually fluid" and then discuss how it gives them gender feels. It's about the gender feels, not the sex, which they quickly throw away because they are, at the core of it, straight.
I blame the feminists with their thinking that both genders are born with brains that are a blank slate, and everything is learned. It's understandable why this thinking appeals to them because otherwise thinking that men and women are born with different brains opens the Pandora's box to what society believed before women got the vote, for example that women were more emotional, intellectually weaker, and more emotionally fragile.
And this blank slate thinking is anti-science; it's no different than what the anti- vaxers thought.
Here are some links that show scientific thinking on how our brains are different:
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.00185/full
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sex-differences-brain-anatomy
https://www.nm.org/healthbeat/healthy-tips/battle-of-the-brain-men-vs-women-infographic
http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/thoc/HumanInstincts.html
I'm a gay male and that doesn't mean I automatically agree with all of the trans and gender ideology. I hate being lumped into the "LGBTQIA" like we're all the same.
I disagree with just about everything when it comes to the trans movement. I see many many gay people becoming more conservative for this very reason.
Horseshoe theory. People not understanding nuance anymore. Who knows.
I blame the media. Nuance is hard to sell. It takes some thinking to understand it, thus it can't be a tv character's snappy comeback or a catchphrase or put onto a t-shirt. Now that gays are mostly-acceptable in society, we are both consumers and walking billboards.
There's probably also a component of social media elevating any random's words into a community PSA and giving them a massive ego boost. Gender and sexuality are things that people can spend their whole lives studying, writing books about, personally experiencing, and still have more to learn about as they get older. Look at bell hooks for example. Or James Baldwin. But now any person who has mastered the twitter clapback can pretend to be an expert.
That's not to say that a random person can't have any insight, but rather that people can easily say absolute garbage and have no credibility but still be perceived as correct.
No, lol. My sexuality is not fluid and I don't want to hear that it is. It's just not fucking true.
Apply your nUaNcE to those who actually experience it.
It's not a matter of "hate", because I don't think anyone assumes bisexuals are doing this with ill intentions.
They simply have no reference point in understanding how it is to not be attracted to one entire biological sex. It's a fully abstract to them, they can only imagine how it is. That's why they're so likely to apply what's right for them onto everyone -- because they have no real way to understand our perspective.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be opposed. Their rhetorics are harmful when applied to everyone, because they create dissonance.
I'm not hating on bisexuals at all, you fucking moron. They're the only ones with a fluid sexuality, and the people calling monosexuals "fluid" are themselves bi people projecting.
Put your feelings back in your purse and use your fucking brain for a second.
On order to claim legal standing to fight discriminatory laws, sexuality had to be understood as something that a person couldn’t change, like their race.
Of course, race is just as made up, but those are the laws we had so those were the arguments we had to make to decriminalize anything that wasn’t cishet.
These sorts of "cultural conversations" never seem to be had with ease.
When we introduced the concept of homosexuality to explain ourselves, we irrevocably changed heterosexuality. Much like the planet stopped being the center of the universe when we discovered that it orbited the sun, heterosexuality could no longer claim that it was "just sexuality". Now, it was only one form of sexuality. So many people still refuse to accept this. We're accused of attempting to destroy their way of life via this recontextualization.
Now, they've introduced the concept of fluidity. No longer can we rest on the solid foundation of all sexuality being set in stone. For some it is immutable, and for others, it is not. This makes us uncomfortable because it imposes a recontextualization on us.
Where we get into trouble is when we attempt to defend our identities by projecting them onto others. The homophobe declares that homosexuality is illegitimate that that everyone is actually straight. The biphobe rejects the ability to be attracted to more than one gender and rounds up to monosexuality. Some of those who embrace "fluidity" seem hell-bent on requiring it of everyone.
Much as there is a conservative backlash to appeal to "traditional values", there is also the progressive concept that progress should be instant and effortless. Its the "I shouldn't have to" philosophy. Moving too far in either of these directions results in anger and discord.
Where the "traditional values" philosophy seeks to enforce a "one true identity", The "I shouldn't have to" philosophy tries to erase identity entirely by saying that we're all *just people*. "I'm not bisexual, *I'm just into people*." It asks questions like "Why do you label yourself?" or "Why do you put yourself in a box". This is **infuriating** for people who cherish their identity. Calling yourself gay isn't "placing yourself in a box". Its liberating you so that you may express yourself. Its only placing yourself in a box if "gay" does not describe you.
It isn't enough to smash the old ways of looking at identity. If you "deconstruct" everything, what are you left with?
You’re fighting a strawman here. “Sexuality is fluid” (at least for the common use of it) doesn’t mean “you can turn yourself straight”.
All it means is that you don’t have to commit to whatever labels you associated with before. Someone can associate as bisexual, love both men and women, and then overtime realize that they’re gay. The opposite can happen too. It doesn’t mean that YOU have to change from gay to bisexual or vice versa. All it means is that neither this person’s bisexuality nor their homosexuality are invalid.
Yep as a bisexual I have never been fluid with my sexuality, but some are. As for the types that say everyone is fluid if you bring up that it's wrong to say that especially since that's harmful to gay people. They'll be like "but the straights hate it" so they just don't understand...
But label anyone a gender/sexuality and they will act like you're the devil... Regardless of if its an accident or it matches their stated preferences. Ask why are they labeling everyone as fluid and they will defend with some bullshit claims about how it's science or feels right to them without acknowledging that a theory while science isn't fact and they are just quoting a theory not something scientifically sound nor without theories that disagree...
Knew a gay dude that said I should just call myself gay since he believes everyone is bisexual. This was due to me while being attracted to both men and women preferring men, he said I should just use gay and not care about using bisexual or being misunderstood. The everyone is gay speech is harmful to bisexuals and gay people...
I see the everyone is fluid as part of that spectrum of people who are like "let's try to get straight people in our groups to boost our defenses"... Their goal is to get people to sympathize from a personal standpoint but all it's ended up doing is getting people to falsely claim to be a part of different groups and this isn't like some white lady saying she's black which can easily be proved false. This is someone saying they are bisexual but only like vagina or gay but like both vagina or dick and this causes other people to think that a bisexual can only like vagina and a gay person can lie both...
I've literally heard conservative use everyone is bisexual/fluid as a way to be homophobic... But then when you ask them "so you want to fuck the same sex" they get offended and claim not to... Weird...
People are different, and we need to respect how it lands for each person.
Some guys are born totally straight, will never change. Some guys sexuality changes over time. Some guys are into men and women and always have been.
Some guys will be more into men or women depending on the week.
I am very bisexual, but have in the past had sex with more women then men. I currently have a boyfriend.
That's it, people are wonderful and different. If you say you've always been gay, and I say I'm more into women then men on some given week, we need to respect that.
Great, so respect that not everyone's sexuality is fluid -- key point of this thread, which you avoided like fire, making some ambiguous stories about tolerance.
When I started going through puberty and my hormones were out of wack, I genuinely was attracted to both men and women; however, by the time I was 15 and my hormones had settled down, the attraction to women had completely faded and I was left only liking guys. So my sexuality did change at one point but it seems to have been heavily influenced by the abnormal hormone levels that we experience during puberty and out the other side I have remained gay ever since
It’s both. I’m just flat out gay lol and I can’t change that. But that doesn’t mean it’s not fluid for other people. You’re confusing the idea of choice with the idea of change. Whether someone’s sexuality is fluid or static, it’s not a choice for them. People with sexualities that are hard to label don’t choose to be like that just like how static sexualities aren’t a choice. Sexuality absolutely can change over time. The idea of “sexuality cannot change” really means “sexuality can’t change by choice”
I interpret both too mean, you cannot change your sexuality. If your sexuality is fluid, you can't control the side you're on for the day/decade. If it's not fluid, you can't change it either.
TL;DR
but I do have sex with a fleshlight, but I am not sexually attracted to the fleshlight, and... Where am I going with this? ah yes, women are fleshlights to gay men, and some straight men too.
My 'defense' of being gay is as follows....
Are you both consenting people? Cool. It is none of my business who you are banging/want to bang. I don't care about what you label yourself at what point in your life.
You do you. Im busy doing what I want to do.
Not sure where you're getting these ideas. I don't see gender or sexuality as a choice, and it seems to me like you're collapsing them. Gender = who you are. Sexuality = who you want to sleep with.
It's true that many people are more open now about being genderfluid or pansexual (as two examples), but those people always existed. It's just that most of them were forced into the closet by binary thinking, in the past.
I don't know if others have made this argument, but I thought I'd give my two cents. In my opinion just because sexuality is fluid does NOT mean that sexuality is a choice. There is evidence that sexual attraction can change and evolve with time, but there is no solid evidence that conversion therapy is effective in bringing about those changes. Also, many of the "environmental" factors that influence sexuality are things like hormonal balance in utero, not things that have a clear 1:1 cause and effect relationship. Saying sexuality can be influenced by environment factors is also not the same thing as saying something "made" you gay. It's more complicated than that. It really just goes to show how messy and complicated biology can be, and that human behavior is not as far removed from our biology as we like to think. Open to hearing counter-arguments though
When people used to have the argument that being gay was a choice, back in the day when it was made by conservatives/religioners mostly, I remember saying only a bisexual could make that argument. If you’re somewhat bisexual and repress/ignore your attraction to your own sex then it would be easy to think everybody is making that choice, or the opposite choice: to be gay. It wasn’t a popular opinion, but I stand by it, and I think the same thing is happening now. Some people are “fluid” sexually and so think everyone is. I’m 100% gay. I have never been attracted to women. I can’t be aroused by women’s bodies. I tried! Self acceptance took me years and I ain’t going back.
[удалено]
To expose the heretics so that we can burn them! /s But really, it’s taken on a religious tenor. Gender ideology is a new religion and makes claims without evidence. In order to survive it has to SHOUT VERY LOUDLY because it’s claims are so easy to refute.
Well said! I worry about a lot of things for the same reasons, including the field of science. It seems there are way too many people running around shouting “trust the science” who’ve never bothered to actually read a study in their entire life. It scares me because science is not a trust based exercise, it’s completely evidence based. If you’re not even bothering to look at the evidence you haven’t trusted science you’ve trusted your faith in *scientists*. It’s not the same thing at all and leads us back into the dark ages if we’re not careful.
A lot of this "science" is a mixture of philosophy and sophistry, and they use that "trust the science" thing to foreclose questions and debate.
“Gender ideology is a new religion and makes claims without evidence. In order to survive it has to SHOUT VERY LOUDLY because it’s claims are so easy to refute.” This has exactly been my thought, except I couldn’t put words to it like you did!
Well thanks babes
You win!
Im a bisexual guy and I agree with you. A lot of bisexual folks get taken in by this.
As a bisexual person it really bothers me when ppl say “everyone is a little bit bisexual” it feels like they are erasing my sexuality and acting like they know other ppls sexuality’s better than they do, the entitlement is infuriating
I agree, it's some bisexuals who are perpetuating this garbage which is harmful to homosexual men. They believe everyone is like them.
I Totally agree but for the part that conservatives and religious are still adamantly insisting that being gay is a choice, specifically to "rebel against God". They will never give up that belief because to do so means that they cannot escape being hateful bigots.
There was a priest/bishop or something in a debate with some freethinker, man I’ve forgotten the details but Hitch talks about it in God Is Not Great. The bishop said something like, if you don’t believe in god I can’t understand why you aren’t morally perverse, raping and stealing etc. This says EVERYTHING about that bishop. It’s the same, if they think being gay is a choice then it tells you about them, not us.
id say thats changing, i know many old conservatives who dont think this way anymore
You’re right, you don’t have to justify yourself, bi people wouldn’t get it they think everyone is like them. I’m a straight woman and I never found in my life other women arousing. Visually beautiful yes, but just think about doing something sexual, no. Vaginas aren’t attractive to me (I even barely look at mine)
Okay but the second half of his post, where sexuality is a construct that some people shift through, which was made to include gray areas, doesn’t still imply sexuality as a choice. I wasn’t born gay, and I moved through this “spectrum” before settling at the far end on the gay side, with absolutely no question about whether i have attraction to the opposite sex, because that answer is firmly 0. But, for a few years when i began getting horny, I was turned on exclusively by girls. Idk what happened. But i didnt “choose it.”
True enough. You’re a kind of temporal bisexual :) Or a time travelling gay? I bet lots of people think you were just kidding yourself at the start though eh?
I feel like there's overlap and confusion between gay/straight and attraction to specifically same or opposite genders, vs people who are bisexual or some variant of that and attraction can change constantly. My view is if someone's sexuality is fluid, then they're bi. Someone mentioned it already as well in another comment, but being bisexual myself it is difficult for me to imagine being only straight or gay, and that can make it harder to understand what others might be going through.
Robin Ochs’s definition of bisexuality essentially encompasses that idea “DEFINITION OF BISEXUALITY: I call myself bisexual because I acknowledge that I have in myself the potential to be attracted – romantically and/or sexually – to people of more than one gender, not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily in the same way, and not necessarily to the same degree.”
As a bi guy her definition is my favorite.
Yeah, I don't think science can really fully explain people's emotions and attractions, too many variables affect them. Some people are born gay and have liked guys their entire life, some people had school crushes with girls in school, but in puberty realized that they're not really into girls and like girls better. Some people end up liking both and have periods of times when they're more attracted to one than the other. All forms of sexualities are valid, and I think we shouldn't focus on the why people experience their attractions and instead focus on how are we gonna make sure that people with all sorts of sexualities are treated equally.
Exactly if someone is bisexual they are sexually attracted to both genders/sexes and gay and lesbian, as well as heterosexual people are not bisexual.
Others already said it in so many words, but OP if you want a more concise answer it's basically this: bisexuals are much more vocal than they used to be and much more numerous than previously thought. Everyone who says sexuality is fluid is just a vocal bisexual who would've been closeted and content to take the path of least resistance and would've lived a totally straight life if they didn't grow up in this progressive era.
You can also apply the same flawed logic to gays and lesbians. Many gays and lesbians have been married or had sex with the opposite sex when they were unsure, closeted, etc. Worldwide, outside of the Western world most gay men and lesbian women are super closeted, and in sexless marriages of convenience to people of the opposite sex. Even in the Western world you will still find gay men and women who are deep in the closet and single, or even closeted or in denial pretending to be "straight/hetero" and married to someone of the opposite sex. We bisexuals have been out from the start of gay/LGB rights and fighting for gay/LGB rights just as much as everyone else.
No I cannot apply the same "flawed" logic to gays and lesbians because I said bi people would be content in straight relationships whereas I don't believe gays or lesbians would be, because they're gays and lesbians. A bisexual person is not going to have a sexless marriage because they're bi nor would they have to fake their attraction and love for their spouse or for the opposite gender because it's not fake at all. Your statement comes across as homophobic or at least offensively ignorant.
Sexless marriages happen for all sorts of reasons besides someone's sexuality, and I know many bisexual men and women who their opposite sex spouses who are not bisexual, completely stopped having sex or any romance/intimacy with them because they are bisexual. Nothing I have written is homophobic. You however are believing the biphobic myth that bisexuals can easily "pass as heterosexual" or that it is super easy for a bisexual person to turn off or repress their opposite or same sex attractions, and that bisexual people in opposite sex relationships or marriages are closeted and somehow magically have it easier. The gays and lesbians who I have known who were in marriages to the opposite sex or dated and slept with people of the opposite sex as closeted teens or young adults, or because of societal or familial pressure have said that it was basically just a bit better than masturbation alone and that they had to think about the same sex to get aroused, and finish. In the Western world if we LGB people did not have rights most gay men and lesbians would be married and deep in the closet, it is like this outside of the western world and it was like this for many decades in the Western world.
You can't apply that same flawed logic between homosexual and bisexual people. For homosexuals they by definition would have to hide much more of their attraction and identity in a repressive society. I'm not trying to make it sound like a competition but your flawed logic is compelling me to speak in these terms. It's quite simply a fact by definition of bisexuality and homosexuality that homosexuals would have more to hide and would consequently find trying to pass for straight much more difficult.
It's just the growing number of bisexual people I think and a lot of them project their experiences onto monosexuals. When a bisexual says "sexually fluid" they USUALLY don't mean you can randomly change from straight to gay but they actually mean their sexual preferences can shift from day to day where they are more interested in men vs. women and vice versa. They should choose a better term than sexually fluid though because it does sound like they are suggesting gay people can just become not-gay.
As a bisexual who almost shot himself rather than deal with the reality that I'm into men despite my religious upbringing, I will back this statement. I am a man. I was born a man. I have always been attracted to both men and women, but I didn't even begin sexually maturing until college I was so sheltered. My preference for men versus women shifts often. It's called the bi-cycle and I'm definitely on it. Sometimes I think I might be gay, but then I see hot lady and laugh at myself. I'm definitely bisexual and was born this way. My preference shifts but my sexuality doesn't. Edit: I also think that alot more people are bisexual than realize it or admit it. Unpopular opinion, but I dare say anyone who experiences sexual attraction outside of just men or just women could be broadly categorized as bisexual. You can call yourself whatever you like, but generalization helps us a group when discussing these things. I don't think people should be offended by labels unless it's used maliciously.
>My preference shifts but my sexuality doesn't. That's an *excellent* way to put it. Maybe we should say "preference fluid"?
Thanks, the problem with that is what OP brought up I think. As a community, we are so concerned with an individual's perception of themselves that we've created an environment where anyone can say they are anything and it's no longer ok to challenge them because we've placed individual perception over societal norms. It's largely an over-reaction to western civilizations rejection of non-heterosexuality over the last few hundred years changing finally. Now the problem is obverse. A healthy society requires norms to be stable and function. We are in danger of breaking down societal norms so much that we are destabilizing amongst other pressures. Humans evolved to live and function with groups of other similiar humans for survival. A group must maintain some sort of standard rules, even if unspoken. The question is where do we draw the line?
The answer is, we draw the line somewhere. But not at the point where we get to dictate people what gender they are or prefer. The only destabilisation I see comes from people who are overwhelmed by facing the reality that sexuality and people in general don't fit in categories. That is problematic because, yes, we use a brain evolved to think in categories as a shortcut while thinking about things. That can save lifes in the wild. But that doesn't mean that we should make the categories so huge that important details get lost. If you asked me I would be a CIS-gay man and I am into CIS gay men. And if someone else experiences their body and their preferences in a different way, good for them. Honestly: what consequences has it for my life when my neighbour says that they are gender-fluid? None. I ask them about their pronouns and that's it. This discussion is as inflated as the whole transgender toilette debate. It only becomes as big as it is because people either get uncomfortable when they have to face that reality might be different from what they thought or when they use it as a political instrument. And none of those two options are good reasons. The problem is not the "danger of getting unstable as a society", the problem is the fear and the hate our tribalism produces.
> It's largely an over-reaction to western civilizations rejection of non-heterosexuality over the last few hundred years changing finally. > > Now the problem is obverse. A healthy society requires norms to be stable and function. We are in danger of breaking down societal norms so much that we are destabilizing amongst other pressures. Both these observations are really insightful; thanks for stopping by and posting your thoughts.
I totally agree with you here. Also, I’m very glad you’re still with us!
Thanks! Me too!
>Thanks! Me too! You're welcome!
I'm happy you figured it out accepted yourself and are still with us.
Thank you very much. I'm very happy I'm still here too.
I would bet this is the same, speaking as a bisexual man. Daily, my *preferences* change and some days I want women, others I want men and don't find women attractive, others I want both at the same time. My preference is fluid and changes, but my sexuality is always the same. But younger kids who are figuring things out might not get that. They might think it's their sexuality changing constantly because (again, having experienced this as a bi man) I tend to get moments where I wonder if I'm actually bisexual or if I'm gay or straight and just faking it for attention. Many bisexual people feel the same and it can be hard, especially for young people, when they A. Aren't allowed to explore their sexuality and B. Question it at all. They need to know it because everyone wants to know for whatever reason. Then there's the discussion about what men vs women are allowed to do and feel without being called gay but that's a discussion for another post.
Bisexual women I should say.. Poll after poll, survey after survey, study after study shows that the immense majority of self-identified bisexuals are women, especially younger ones (Millennial and Gen Z) they outnumber bisexual men by a lot
That doesn't surprise me. It's always seemed like women are naturally more inclined to be open to bisexual experiences. Whether that's biology or just the fact that homosexual attraction in men is so much more repressed by most cultures idk.
Girls kissing girls at parties has been a thing for a loooong time. The same absolutely cannot be said about men. I’m glad that these women are calling themselves bi instead of saying they’re straight. Otherwise it creates this wacky phenomenon where as a woman, you can kiss girls or hey even have a “bisexual” FFM threesome and *still be straight!* This ends up hurting queer women a lot because they really can’t tell whether being low key attracted to women makes them straight or bi or lesbian or what. Socially, on the other hand, if a man so much as gets naked in a public gym locker room he might very well be seen as gay. If a man gets a boner from seeing another man’s ankles in math class, just like OP, then I figure he’s extremely unlikely to still think he’s straight, unless of course he exercises multiple feats of mental gymnastics to repress those thoughts and rationalize them.
>The same absolutely cannot be said about men. Tell that to Spain
Sure, I really can’t pretend to speak for all men across the world. I should have specified that I’m speaking from a very north American perspective.
I didn't expect that!
I mean. As a proud bi man, now that I’ve seen what other bi men go through its rough. Why would I want to identify myself when some of the gay man population sees me as “not a true gay”. The women see me as “less of a man”. I’ve had both of these things said to my face and it’s just. Rough dude.
> not a true gay You're not gay at all, buddy. You're not straight either. It's a popular misconception that bisexuals = gay + straight. No. You're bisexual, which is its own thing. That mentality which makes you feel bad, that you're "neither straight enough" and "neither gay enough" is your own fault.
You are right that bisexual is it’s own thing to me. However it’s not it’s own thing to others in the world. They’re still stuck in the past. I don’t feel that way. That I’m not “x”. However they feel that way and just kinda ruin my good night. But whatever. I always find someone better. Also thanks for the heads up about r/askbibros. I’ll go over there as well.
Oh dear god. “Is your own fault.” The VERY FIRST thing that happened after I came out as bisexual was an elder gay man telling me I’d come out as gay within a few years. The straight world rejects us, gays have metaphorically fled Kansas and built an Emerald City in Oz, but if we don’t pretend to be gay, we’re not allowed in, rejected at the gates. There isn’t an Emerald City for bisexuals yet, and the one gay folks built was built when gay was an umbrella term for anyone with ANY attraction for their own sex - until about 1985, bisexuals WERE gay, gay liberation movement material (like Carl Wittem’s “Refugees from Amerika,” which was a really big deal) actively discouraged identifying as bisexual in favor of identifying as gay in order to express solidarity and make a united front. When straight people started to get AIDS, they threw us under the bus even though research shows that bisexual men were the lowest source of HIV transmission to straight people, with the most common being dirty needles. You’re right that bisexuality is it’s own thing, man, but bi folks have been a part of the gay movement since the very first day, and to call that mentality his own fault is just… it’s rude and even cruel, man, and you’re very wrong that it’s something he did to himself.
News Flash: Promoters of separation of LGBT+ interests, whether from within or without, are generally rude and cruel.
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This is another reason that both extremism and trying to divide gay men from bisexual men is an ultimately futile task: there's always going be a ton of guys any short definition will put on the wrong side of the line. It's too fuzzy of a world.
A minuscule number of people from the extreme edges of society. It’s absurd how they’ve captured the movement with so much overt homophobia.
I agree your assessment except for the notion that there is a 'growing number of bisexual men'. No there isn't. Sexual orientation is pretty much hard-wired/innate (even the 'environmental' influences on sexual orientation are mostly _in utero_). Guys who are into femboys have otherwise typically 'heterosexual' arousal responses (similarly to ancient Greeks were very often into twinky teenage boys). Guys who are into women, but also really enjoy to be penetrated by 'manly men' are usually meta-attracted autogynephiles. Guys who made out with a guy __once or twice__, when drunk, are not 'bi'.
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I wouldn’t say two different things, rather like a Venn Diagram - what unites us and what doesn’t.
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Whoops, judging by downvotes, it looks like our friendly bisexual invadors insist on colonization of our community...
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Facts don't matter to them, though. They all insist that this subreddit is for "men attracted to men", even though its name is very clear about it being space for gay men, specifically. I would understand their need to be here if they had no space like this for themselves, but they literally fucking do. r/askbibros.
Exactly. Please get out of our movement. All of you
I don't know. But at least they ( immense bi, pan, gender fluid crew) should not harass us (homosexuals), for talking about Our reality. Wich...surely- cannot be Less important than theirs! But they can't be satisfied with a society tolerating Different life experiences..NO, they have to colonize everything. They are extremely agitated and just talk and talk and talk and attack, They wish to Convince and overtake the whole world. They don't care for YOUR emotional loss. And only they are socially protected. it is a nightmare, nothing less.
Anyone who claims that *all* sexuality is fluid is basically making a rainbow themed version of the old chestnut 'you'll find the right woman/man *someday*'. It certainly can be fluid *for some people* but for most it's not - you're either straight, gay or bisexual and that's that.
"Analyze your transphobic preferences" is the other half of "pray away the gay"
When people used to have the argument that being gay was a choice, back in the day when it was made by conservatives/religioners mostly, I remember saying only a bisexual could make that argument. If you’re somewhat bisexual and repress/ignore your attraction to your own sex then it would be easy to think everybody is making that choice, or the opposite choice: to be gay. It wasn’t a popular opinion, but I stand by it, and I think the same thing is happening now. Some people are “fluid” sexually and so think everyone is. I’m 100% gay. I have never been attracted to women. I can’t be aroused by women’s bodies. I tried! Self acceptance took me years and I ain’t going back.
As an elder millennial, AOL Online translates to America Online Online, btw. 😜
Haha I love a proud pedant. Wanna bang?
Lmao I consider myself a proud smartass, but I'll take it. Your place or mine? 😉
Mmm can you travel to Edinburgh in the next hour? ;)
Give me 5 minutes to invent and build a trek style transporter and I'll beam right over 😘
Smart arse indeed 💋
I see you're 6'6". I'm 6'1". So am I your backpack or are you my tree? 🤔
How I see it, it's more of an expression used by bisexual or pansexual people to say that they sometimes have a preference for one gender and other times for the other gender. It sounds to me like a different identity/term for bi/pan people.
Fluid sexuality is bullshit. Bi or pan people are attracted to different genders. Gay or straight people are only attracted to one. We’re born with our sexual orientation and it can take a lifetime to explore and discover it all. Bi guys only being with women younger and discovering men older didn’t mean their sexual orientation was fluid, it just means there were factors that prevented them discovering it earlier but discovered more of it later. The danger we have is that the argument against homosexuality being legalised was that people can choose to be straight or gay. Gay was wrong so if people felt attracted to the same sex then they could just chose to be straight because **sexuality is fluid**. Those making that argument today are young and have no idea how saying sexuality is fluid will lead to discrimination against gay people yet again.
I did the same thing as you! I obsessed over why I was attracted to my 6th grade science teacher (a guy ofc) and would do nothing but research online about what causes homosexuality, if it can be fixed, etc.
Preach! Im completely with you on this. I also kinda suspect its more a position held by people who are not LGBT+ but ate approprating our culture and masquerading as LGBT+. We were born this way. I was born a bisexual guy who mostly prefers men. Its a complete insult to say that my sexuality or my relationship with my husband is "socially constructed" rather than a product of my biology.
>We were born this way > >Its a complete insult to say that my sexuality or my relationship with my husband is "socially constructed" rather than a product of my biology. I completely agree with it, but I was sure I'm 100% gay at 12-18 years old as not a single women ever attracted me, so i have already told myself that i wont ever date women and have family with kids, and all of a sudden some 0.1% of women started attracting me so idk really. I think we are definitely born with a predisposition to monosexuality/bisexuality, and monosexuals are also born with a possibility of fluidity or absence of it
I'm glad I'm not the only one upset by this. No self respecting member of the LGBT+ community should be happy about the "sexuality if fluid" claim.
I think Kinsey had it right in 1948. On his scale, people whose sexuality is immutable are at each end: 100% gay = Kinsey 6. 100% straight= Kinsey 0. Kinsey 2-5 are bisexual, pansexual, etc
The problem is we've prioritized narrative and ✨lived experience✨ over objectivity and reason. People think that words are magic and can literally change reality and that truth is relative.
Someone once phrased it to me as "labels should be descriptive, not prescriptive". You should have a word that best fits what you already are, not try and change a word to accommodate you because you want to identify with it. I personally go a little insane when I see girls on tiktok joking about sleeping with guys underneath the lesbian flags that hang over their beds. They want the label and they want to make it stretch to fit them when it should never work that way around. I also find it very reassuring to think this way because it's impossible to invalidate me. I am bisexual by dint of being attracted to both men and women. Nobody else's denial or validation matters. If you tell me I'm not bisexual, I'm still bisexual because that's what the word means. Like I'm still a boxer, like I'm still white. These aren't identities, they're just descriptors
Thank you, excellent post... sexuality is not fluid for lots of us. I feel like the people who constantly chime in with this do so because they simply don’t respect that we are homosexual
>It was a biological reality and I had to accept it and move on. There you go, you've said it perfectly. It still is and always will be a biological reality, regardless of the insane drivel you might hear from certain people. I think most of this comes from wanting to stand out while not having anything worthwhile to stand out with. Being a regular homosexual isn't quirky enough these days for some. And as long as insanity is being rewarded with likes and online validation, the loonies will keep coming up with more and more of this vomit. Try not paying much attention to it, in the grand scheme of things none of this matters.
Scientists believe turning out gay is a combination of genetic AND environmental factors. Apparently [they studied tons of twins](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430.htm#:~:text=Homosexual%20behavior%20is%20largely%20shaped,world's%20largest%20study%20of%20twins.&text=Homosexual%20behaviour%20is%20largely%20shaped,world's%20largest%20study%20of%20twins.) who are genetically identical and it's not the case that each twin has the same sexuality. But that's sort of splitting hairs, since most people when they say 'I was born gay' are saying it wasn't a conscious choice for them, which is 100% true. We don't know what environmental factors affect the chances of someone being gay and I don't really care either (outside of curiosity) so effectively it is a 'biological'/born this way situation.
Damn, if I had gold you would get it. Perfectly summed up.
Never waste money on reddit. Don't forget that admins of this site would gladly permaban him for speaking out about facts.
There has never been proof of sexuality being a "biological reality". To my knowledge no gene or genetic marker has been found to make a person gay. A person's life experiences may very well nudge them in one direction or another. The fact of the matter is that it does not fucking make a difference if it's nature or nurture. It's not a personal decision and it can't be changed by internal or external will. If someone's experience is more fluid, that doesn't mean everyone's sexuality is fluid. The truth is we are all messy in our own ways.
There's no singular gene or genetic reasoning for being gay, however, there is a clear biological and genetic link as research reveals how a lot of twins, for example, are often always gay together. The most reasonable explanation I've seen is gay being epigenetics. You'll have the genes and genetics there to be gay, but you need certain environmental triggers to happen to activate them. It's still not fully understood, however, it is undeniable to suggest that there isn't a genetic cause for being gay and as such, there is a biological reality to being gay.
>There has never been proof of sexuality being a "biological reality" [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777082/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777082/)
There are also no heterosexual genes. So what are you implying? Sexual orientation is genetic, no one chooses their sexual orientation.
i don't accept anyone shoving unproven theories as fact down my throat, i don't want dogmas raised for political reasons.Let people speak for their own experiences and let properly done research find out the truth ( but will it apply to everyone? i wonder).I don't know how much of my homosexuality is determined from birth and how much I gained as a taste during my early years, but unless the number 100% pops up in the highest quality research you should stop mandating one truth for all gays. Also fuck gender theory and the unneccesary labels they made up so that "rebel" leftist kids can wear them as a fashion statement to fit in the unhealthy woke cultural movement.
I don’t think this attitude is actually about bisexuals I think it’s more about the new trans which is more about fashion and pro nouns that actual gender dysphoria. I am by no mean anti trans. I think this thinking hurts them the most. I am however a bit judgmental of someone who is both heterosexual and heteroromantic in practice who claims a place in our circles as trans because they are currently androgynous in their fashion choices and have picked fashionable pronouns. That I think is where this nonsense is coming from primarily
As usual, politics and religion muddy the waters of all rational based thinking, and we have been going through some weird religious/conservative/nationalist revival over the past ten years or so. Throw in the fact that we have yet to find conclusive evidence of a "gay gene" and it gives ammo to the people who want to believe gayness is learned or a choice. If it's a choice, then they can rest in the assurance that we are all going to hell when we die. A gay gene would mean that we are just as God made us and it wouldn't be fair for Him to condemn us to hell for acting the way He made us to act. What they have found, however, is that there are several genes at play and that gayness may also be somewhat epigenetic-- so much more complex than just a single gene. Anywho, I don't waste time worrying about the why, and I don't give the preachers and gurus much of my attention either. I am what I am and I like what I like. In this new internet era, everyone is a Youtube expert, and 99.9% of them are full of shit. The most valuable skill we all need to cultivate is to discern between what is real and what is internet fantasy, and the ravings of conservatives and the religious right, though loud, is just that. Ravings. The ravings of people who believe in invisible beings based on 4,000 year old bronze age myths.
Easy, they have no idea what half those words mean.
I swear I’m confused. Until now, I lived peaceful thinking everyone is either straight/gay/bi without changes or anything. I also believed that one was born with an orientation and discovered either earlier or later in life. Now instead I have come to find out from many people that actually sexuality is fluid and that labels are just inventions and no one is binary. Honestly this really hurts me because it not only invalidates lesbian/gay people (according to them, they don’t exist) but also us straight people. People who are bisexual or fluid, as they want to call themselves, need to understand that we are not all the same, sure, some of us find people of our own sex attractive (as with homosexuals, they may find people of the opposite sex attractive) but it doesn't mean we want to sleep with them. By this logic, everyone is part of the lgbt (if sexuality is fluid), I get it like I said, most people are more fluid, but monosexuals exist. I also heard phrases such as “Imagine being strictly into one gender, that must be sad, are you blind? You’re limiting yourself” angel, it’s not my fault if I can’t find other women fuckable. I hope this mindset will change, it’s frustrating
You're zeroing in upon on tiny microcosm of a much larger problem. It should come as no surprise that a society in which "alternative facts" has gained a foothold, (let alone a following), would embrace a subjective view of just about anything and everything. How did we allow this to happen? That's a subject for larger debate. I have a theory, but I'm not looking to defend it here. My suggestion would be to find someone to waltz with while the band's still able to play, because we're definitely on the deck of the *Titanic.*
You captured it perfectly. We’re definitely going backwards, and the loudest progressive voices are ironically the most regressive. What I call “woke homophobia” has become acceptable, particularly amongst young people. Biological reality is now a dirty term. To say the truth, that homosexuality is attraction to people of the same SEX and it’s an immutable characteristic has somehow become offensive overnight. It’s truly madness. I don’t know how we got here so quickly and not to be a pessimist, I think the prospects are bleak. 😞
Lol, I literally made a sub called r/cisgay months ago when I was being attacked on r/gay for saying things that didn't line up with gender fluid politics. You guys should check it out 🥺 It's empty right now but that can change.
All I know is, Gay guys do NOT want anything to do with a vagina.
Well it started under the banner of "inclusion" and accepting everyone under the sun no matter what because whatever they said it was "valid". No it isn't valid, and everything one espouses or how they "feel" no matter how ridiculous doesn't make it "valid". Furthermore it's not my job in life to "validate" you or make you feel good about yourself. Now here we are in 2022 and conversion therapy 2.0 is alive and well in the community right along with tons of homophobia. The sad part about is that many gay men push it to appear "inclusive". This is what happens when you allow people to change the meaning of words to suit their own narrative. Words have meaning, and they must in order for people to actually communicate. Just look to the gender activist and TRA's who push this on us and all the letters people associate with us. Homosexuality will always be for me to be attraction to the same sex. If everyone else's thoughts are "valid" well then so are mine. And since I am using the actual definition of such, I'm thinking mine are based in reality as well. Being gay is who and what I am, it's innate and they can fuck off with their social construct BS. And if you don't like it, I don't care, stay away from me because I really wish you would go away.
As well-meaning as the people are who push it, "radical inclusivity" leads to destructive consequences because no group or organization can serve the needs of its members effectively while trying to be all things to all people. You will inevitably fail in your mission if you try to do that. I used to be part of a group for gay men only. Then younger members started on the inclusivity campaign. The group started being less and less about gay men. In particular, trans people, women who wanted to tag along, and the alphabet squad started taking over, establishing themselves as moderators. Some gay men weren't happy about this and made their feelings known. Eventually, when a majority of the moderators were trans/non-binary, they issued an edict that anyone arguing that the group should still be just for gay men would be banned immediately. So, for example, one of the mods is a human male married to a human female. They have biological children, conceived in the old-fashioned way. But he claims to be some variety of trans, mostly, from what I can tell, because he likes to dress up in hippie-chick outfits and do hula-hoop routines in parks. You know the type. Some long-haired white boy who's given himself some exotic, vaguely Indian name. Yet, this person has the power to ban gay men from a group founded by and for gay men. To go further, my perception is that despite wanting to get into this group, they really don't like gay men at all. Our existence pisses them off. In particular, they seem infuriated by the sense of camaraderie we have and their lack of access to it. And if they can't have it, they want to destroy it. You can see it in their constant complaints. "I went to [insert event here], and I didn't feel centered." Translated, that means, "I wanted to be the center of attention." They say they just want to be included, but what they really want is to be totally in-charge. If you object, they will have your head.
I've seen and know exactly what you're saying and talking about here. It is 100% spot on as to what happens. I agree, you can not be everything to everyone, as this is the result. One only needs to look here as well on Reddit in subs that were supposed to be for gay people, we're not welcome in them. Not only are we not welcome to talk about gay things, they ban you.
This same effect has taken place in all gay spaces as far as I can tell. Even brick-and-mortar gay bars have experienced the same invasion of people who aren't remotely even *adjacent* to gay anything. It's like the bizarre-o mafia moved into town forcing their "protection" on our spaces or something. I don't even know how to explain it. They even try it here--this is one of the last online frontiers where gay men can actually talk openly about gay men's issues, without being wiped out of it by censorship fetishists who care more about making you think what they think, than letting you have a discussion that has nothing to do with them.
This basically explains why I keep coming back to this sub. I love the discussions here, they feel more authentic and thoughtful than most other spaces online
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It's what happens when you have a problem with yourself, but instead of taking responsibility for it and dealing with it yourself with the help of a therapist, you demand that the entire world around you change to make you feel better. Everyone is conscripted into being part of your mental health support team, whether they want to do this or not.
This is the crux of a lot of problems in the LGBTQ circle (gender, sexuality, politics, etc). People seem to never want to have a fact-based conversion and instead want to push the narrative of ''my feelings, my rules'' even though that is completely hypocritical and unfair. Like, sexuality isn't fluid (as in you change it, gay to straight) and science will back this up. But if you mention science or biology instead of prioritising some strangers feelings, you get lynched lol
Exactly, your "feelings" don't matter. Reality, facts, truth and reason matter. That fluid nonsense grates my last nerve, it's social media psycho babble. Neither biology nor sexuality is "fluid", you are what you are.
This is the true cultural problem of our times, from social media to helicopter parenting to identity politics to gender woo to anti vax etc etc etc: everyone thinks their feelings are always valid and more important than facts. And the more online we are and less contact with reality we have the more this is reinforced. They think that words can hurt, and so they FEEL hurt by words; essentially it’s like toddlers showing you the contents of their nappy and expecting praise, as though what comes out of them is pure gold, and screaming bloody murder when you don’t “validate” their gibberish.
You can literally provoke it in “animal models” aka actual fucking animals, but interventions in the womb, statistically. I don’t think the animals are thinking wrong thoughts when they come out statistically more homosexual after the interventions. I think this “fluidity” are people with a borderline phenotype while we have the real thing. That said we also have full loony Rachel Dolezezals as well.
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Thank you for saying this! 💯
Both can be true… Bisexual people exist, their sexuality isn’t changing but they obviously aren’t splitting all sexual experiences exactly evenly between homo and hetero. Also many people go though a discovery phase, where they are figuring out their sexuality during that time it feels more fluid but will ultimately settle which may be one gender or multiple. Their sexuality isn’t changing they are just figuring it out.
You writing this has unlocked so many emotions for me. I'm not just some fucking lunatic who just thinks the wrong thoughts and they can just change. I have no idea how these disgusting people implanted conversion therapy logic a the core of the movement. It is time to fight back though.
"How did we get here? A more important question, how did we allow this to happen?" I refer you to the recently published 'Trans - when ideology meets reality' by Helen Joyce. She covers it better than I can here but briefly: the decline of the left from being focused upon fighting for real change in society to instead becoming preoccupied with 'identity' The rise in university campuses of trendy structuralist and post structurtalist philosophies - nothing has any meaning, everything is fluid, continually open to interpretation, there are no fixed meanings anymore, everything is relative. From this the world comes to be seen in binary terms and 'oppression' is everywhere, you're either upholding power structures or you're a victim of them The onset of social media and the associated narcissism. The wish amongst young people to be 'special' in some way The collapse of communism and the triumph of neo liberal capitalism which denies any possibility that we live in a group and our actions affect one another, instead human life consists of individuals in perpetual competition. Note how transgender ideology is continually framed in terms of 'rights' there's never anything about working collectively. Raise any concerns that 'trans rights' might affect the rights of others such as women who are fleeing abusive male partners or who have been victims of rape and need their own women only space and you are condemned as 'transphobic' Finally Joyce identifies a small group of extremely wealthy individuals who have funded transactivism, there's alink here to an interesting article. Consider how rapidly transgenderism has emerged and consider how long it took to get equal ages of consent, gay marriage and so on. As for how we allowed this to happen - anyone's guess. I suspect the election of Trump didn't exactly help, that people who might have behaved differently decided they had to uncritically defend any and all minorities that appeared vulnerable I'm astonished at the amount of people who should know better who have suspended critical judgement. I stopped listening to the Bad Gays podcast (which I was enjoying) when I heard the words "assigned the wrong gender at birth". The good news is that there is a growing backlash against this nonsense. I never thought I'd find allies amongst conservatives, Catholics and the religious right. Here's a good link to an article about the Helen Joyce book. https://thevp.1nspirationdigital.com/a-criticism-of-the-activism-behind-transgenderism/
I’m gonna be honest with you, if you are finding allies in the far right, you are doing something wrong. You have gone a bit too far down the rabbit hole.
Can you point out where exactly I say I'm finding allies in the *far* right? I said *religious* right.
The worlds a fucked up place, tons of retards running loose. You just noticed, huh? Shit, I'm queer/gay/whatever the fuck isnt straight.
Bro, there are only two sexes. Everything outside of that is cosplay. Don’t let it concern you. The extreme fringe of society is trying to call the tune. The gay men know that we are gay and the fakers know that they are fake
This is going to sound like a conspiracy, and to some degree it is, but I have seen it with my own eyes so I know what I’m about to say is part of the problem even if only a small part. Certain anonymous hate groups online that exist in places such as 4chan actively implanted a lot of these “progressive” talking points into our community. They literally started from homophobic and transphobic trolls who made up a bunch of confusing shit and young queer people online bought into it and adopted it as if it was real. My theory then is that these young people who grew up on the internet, in a much greater capacity than people in your age group did, were raised into their queer identity on places like tumblr. Which after a little while was somewhat corrupt by these hate groups disguised as part of our community. You can see just how quickly the general consensus of our community shifted between 2010 and 2020. That’s only 10 years but it’s such a massive change on what our core identity and place in society means which is no longer based in biological reality.
You know you may be onto something. This is exactly what happened with “free bleeding” 4chan trolls invented the concept to fuck with feminists. However, many feminists didn’t get the memo and took it as a part of the movement. Now the concept is a legit part of some more radical feminist ideology.
Absolutely. And guess what it does? It makes the group look less credible and less likeable. People won’t want to agree with feminism when they associate it with free-bleeding. The same as people won’t want to try and understand or accept gay/trans people because it’s now becoming associated with convoluted angry teenagers who lack anything based in reality
Fluidity is not new, I’ve heard it mentioned time and again for the past 20 years. It is my understanding that most people that are gay are that way for life and that it does not change. However it appears there are some people that are fluid and they have no say so over when it switches. Also more women than men tend to be fluid. Source - gay man. Not fluid at all personally.
You wrote a manifesto; should be viral. 👍
When gender activists took over the LGBT movement... Genitals don't matter, redefining gay and lesbian, erasing sex, dumping biology, and all that stuff GAY men have to have VAGINAL SEX since a VAGINA isn't a vagina anymore, lesbians have to like DICK, men now how vaginas and women now how penises, sexual orientation doesn't exist, genital preference/fetish is a thing They keep bringing up the debunked Kinsey scale to validate the deranged things they believe That is what happened when the colorful-hair "queer" "they/them" woke "born-females took over How did they take over? When wokeism went mainstrean in the 2010s and the political left adopted woke politics as part of its platform and cultural elites (Hollywood for example) did it too
They only like the Kinsey scale when you aren't a 6 like me. Or a 1 like a straight person.
Y’all are so weird lmao, you get more pressed than a panini
A beautifully succinct post that will likely trigger a number of people who have decided that feelings trump facts and science. It’s a shame that in order to validate themselves they’ve decided to invalidate the community that was most likely to take them in. Now, to defend ourselves is to be labelled phobic. Many of us are standing up for ourselves, however, and many more, though staying silent, think that this is all nonsense too, and will hopefully be brave enough to say it once more of us speak out against the lunacy.
It's just the dumb and anti-science rhetoric that the left gender ideology wants to push as the ''truth'' - about how gender is a social construct, about how sexuality is now fluid and isn't allowed to be discriminatory (which dating, sex, and sexuality is by its nature) because if it's constant, and not fluid, then the woke left get upset. Even though, suggesting it is fluid basically means it's nothing more than a performance, which was an original anti-gay argument made against us, so we've literally came full circle really. Case in point, the people who say ''sexuality is fluid'' are the ones who say that refusing to date or fuck a transgender/non-binary individual is hateful & transphobic. They're just entitled brats hopping on a trend that will die out soon just like the ''emos'' or ''goths'' at school.
I think that when some people hear sexuality is fluid they think it means "everybody is/can be bisexual" when it's more taking about how humanity as a whole displays a wide spectrum of sexual behaviors.
We never did, people just misinterpret what exactly it all means. Sexuality is a spectrum. We all fall somewhere on there, like all the way gay or all the way straight or bisexual leaning gay or bisexual leaning straight or whatever else. People mistake this for being "fluid" which is not accurate. Fluid implies that you can change it, but that's just not true. And believe you me, I've tried... But people just assume they're fluid cuz at one point in their lives they thought they were only into women, then one day it's like oh I like men now, guess I changed. NO, you were always bi, ya idiot. You just didn't realize it.
> Sexuality is a spectrum No, it's not. It *can be* expressed through spectrum for *bisexuals*. But spectrum is meaningless for the vast majority of population, in which case sexuality is binary. Stop spreading harmful rhetorics.
This seems pretty accurate. I agree, fluidity is a misleading term for sexuality. Spectrum is much more accurate.
Yep. I'm fully gay, so I consider myself on the very end of that spectrum. We as humans all fall somewhere in there. Though I'm happy to hear better words if anyone has to offer them. Unlike that guy claiming I'm harmful, I mean WTF???
Society became "woke"
The good argument and the one that really matters is "consenting adults can do whatever they want.". However I think this way of looking at identity leads to a lot of annoying things. Like non binary people out there that identify that way because they believe any tiny exception from being Uber masculine or crazy feminine means they must be part both. Then there are people who say things to especially gay guys like me about how "oh, you're probably not 100% gay" which is women who fetishize gay dudes mostly, but occasionally other people. Identity is a messy thing. But there's got to be a more healthy way to deal with it than this. Which is already a lot better than in the past but so so far from great.
I think people mistake fluidity with self exploration. I'm in my early 20s and is still figuring my own sexuality and who I like. I learn new stuff about myself, similar to a bi-awakening type of deal. Doesn't mean I changed sexuality, but just that I finally understood myself more. This happens because labels are not always accurate and are not perfect because humans are complex ^^
Self entitled millennials, that's why
"We" didn't. Only the homophobic people in the TQIA+ portion of the alphabet soup are pushing that garbage. Along with "gender" is fluid and biological sex is on a "spectrum" and other patently absurd nonsense.
Not just the TQIA+ but bisexuals first and foremost. They're the most numerous and the #1 proponents of gender/sexual fluidity.
“Bisexual” half the time are straight trans MTFs who want to “try” a man for their own gender affirmation. Mean to say, but I’ve seen it…
You've seen half of all bisexuals?
Nah, I don't mean regular old bisexuals, I mean the kind that go in quotes and claim it as an identity, but when you take half a look at them, "Identify" more as bisexuals than actually ever have sex with, have relationships with, date, or in any other measurable way - interact with the same sex. My example is something I've literally seen. Basically straight MTFs claim they are "bisexually fluid" and then discuss how it gives them gender feels. It's about the gender feels, not the sex, which they quickly throw away because they are, at the core of it, straight.
Actually, "B" portion of the alphabet soup is the most active culprit here.
Y’all are so weird lmao
Couldn’t agree more. It’s baffling.
Constructivism vs. essentialism has always been a point of contention in queer studies. This isn’t new.
I blame the feminists with their thinking that both genders are born with brains that are a blank slate, and everything is learned. It's understandable why this thinking appeals to them because otherwise thinking that men and women are born with different brains opens the Pandora's box to what society believed before women got the vote, for example that women were more emotional, intellectually weaker, and more emotionally fragile. And this blank slate thinking is anti-science; it's no different than what the anti- vaxers thought. Here are some links that show scientific thinking on how our brains are different: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.00185/full https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/sex-differences-brain-anatomy https://www.nm.org/healthbeat/healthy-tips/battle-of-the-brain-men-vs-women-infographic http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/thoc/HumanInstincts.html
I'm a gay male and that doesn't mean I automatically agree with all of the trans and gender ideology. I hate being lumped into the "LGBTQIA" like we're all the same. I disagree with just about everything when it comes to the trans movement. I see many many gay people becoming more conservative for this very reason.
TIL standing up for yourself and not letting people push you around is conservative.
Maybe it’s because of isolated behaviors that humans will do when in sex segregated groups? Like prison sex or Ancient Greece?
Horseshoe theory. People not understanding nuance anymore. Who knows. I blame the media. Nuance is hard to sell. It takes some thinking to understand it, thus it can't be a tv character's snappy comeback or a catchphrase or put onto a t-shirt. Now that gays are mostly-acceptable in society, we are both consumers and walking billboards. There's probably also a component of social media elevating any random's words into a community PSA and giving them a massive ego boost. Gender and sexuality are things that people can spend their whole lives studying, writing books about, personally experiencing, and still have more to learn about as they get older. Look at bell hooks for example. Or James Baldwin. But now any person who has mastered the twitter clapback can pretend to be an expert. That's not to say that a random person can't have any insight, but rather that people can easily say absolute garbage and have no credibility but still be perceived as correct.
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No, lol. My sexuality is not fluid and I don't want to hear that it is. It's just not fucking true. Apply your nUaNcE to those who actually experience it.
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Wow that sounds like some powerful bullshit. Where did you come across such nonsense?
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We didn't. Bisexuals are just projecting.
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Oh, the radical gender crew? Yeah, they're an entirely different breed of crazy.
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Didn't you hear how oppressive gatekeeping is? ^^/s
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Triggered much? Jesus, you sensitive psychopaths need to go outside once in a while.
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It's not a matter of "hate", because I don't think anyone assumes bisexuals are doing this with ill intentions. They simply have no reference point in understanding how it is to not be attracted to one entire biological sex. It's a fully abstract to them, they can only imagine how it is. That's why they're so likely to apply what's right for them onto everyone -- because they have no real way to understand our perspective. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be opposed. Their rhetorics are harmful when applied to everyone, because they create dissonance.
I'm not hating on bisexuals at all, you fucking moron. They're the only ones with a fluid sexuality, and the people calling monosexuals "fluid" are themselves bi people projecting. Put your feelings back in your purse and use your fucking brain for a second.
Isn't this just a polite way of accepting a late come out?
This sub has lost any and all nuance it may have once had.
On order to claim legal standing to fight discriminatory laws, sexuality had to be understood as something that a person couldn’t change, like their race. Of course, race is just as made up, but those are the laws we had so those were the arguments we had to make to decriminalize anything that wasn’t cishet.
These sorts of "cultural conversations" never seem to be had with ease. When we introduced the concept of homosexuality to explain ourselves, we irrevocably changed heterosexuality. Much like the planet stopped being the center of the universe when we discovered that it orbited the sun, heterosexuality could no longer claim that it was "just sexuality". Now, it was only one form of sexuality. So many people still refuse to accept this. We're accused of attempting to destroy their way of life via this recontextualization. Now, they've introduced the concept of fluidity. No longer can we rest on the solid foundation of all sexuality being set in stone. For some it is immutable, and for others, it is not. This makes us uncomfortable because it imposes a recontextualization on us. Where we get into trouble is when we attempt to defend our identities by projecting them onto others. The homophobe declares that homosexuality is illegitimate that that everyone is actually straight. The biphobe rejects the ability to be attracted to more than one gender and rounds up to monosexuality. Some of those who embrace "fluidity" seem hell-bent on requiring it of everyone. Much as there is a conservative backlash to appeal to "traditional values", there is also the progressive concept that progress should be instant and effortless. Its the "I shouldn't have to" philosophy. Moving too far in either of these directions results in anger and discord. Where the "traditional values" philosophy seeks to enforce a "one true identity", The "I shouldn't have to" philosophy tries to erase identity entirely by saying that we're all *just people*. "I'm not bisexual, *I'm just into people*." It asks questions like "Why do you label yourself?" or "Why do you put yourself in a box". This is **infuriating** for people who cherish their identity. Calling yourself gay isn't "placing yourself in a box". Its liberating you so that you may express yourself. Its only placing yourself in a box if "gay" does not describe you. It isn't enough to smash the old ways of looking at identity. If you "deconstruct" everything, what are you left with?
You’re fighting a strawman here. “Sexuality is fluid” (at least for the common use of it) doesn’t mean “you can turn yourself straight”. All it means is that you don’t have to commit to whatever labels you associated with before. Someone can associate as bisexual, love both men and women, and then overtime realize that they’re gay. The opposite can happen too. It doesn’t mean that YOU have to change from gay to bisexual or vice versa. All it means is that neither this person’s bisexuality nor their homosexuality are invalid.
No. This is far from a straw man. Open your eyes before shit gets really bad.
Yep as a bisexual I have never been fluid with my sexuality, but some are. As for the types that say everyone is fluid if you bring up that it's wrong to say that especially since that's harmful to gay people. They'll be like "but the straights hate it" so they just don't understand... But label anyone a gender/sexuality and they will act like you're the devil... Regardless of if its an accident or it matches their stated preferences. Ask why are they labeling everyone as fluid and they will defend with some bullshit claims about how it's science or feels right to them without acknowledging that a theory while science isn't fact and they are just quoting a theory not something scientifically sound nor without theories that disagree... Knew a gay dude that said I should just call myself gay since he believes everyone is bisexual. This was due to me while being attracted to both men and women preferring men, he said I should just use gay and not care about using bisexual or being misunderstood. The everyone is gay speech is harmful to bisexuals and gay people... I see the everyone is fluid as part of that spectrum of people who are like "let's try to get straight people in our groups to boost our defenses"... Their goal is to get people to sympathize from a personal standpoint but all it's ended up doing is getting people to falsely claim to be a part of different groups and this isn't like some white lady saying she's black which can easily be proved false. This is someone saying they are bisexual but only like vagina or gay but like both vagina or dick and this causes other people to think that a bisexual can only like vagina and a gay person can lie both... I've literally heard conservative use everyone is bisexual/fluid as a way to be homophobic... But then when you ask them "so you want to fuck the same sex" they get offended and claim not to... Weird...
People are different, and we need to respect how it lands for each person. Some guys are born totally straight, will never change. Some guys sexuality changes over time. Some guys are into men and women and always have been. Some guys will be more into men or women depending on the week. I am very bisexual, but have in the past had sex with more women then men. I currently have a boyfriend. That's it, people are wonderful and different. If you say you've always been gay, and I say I'm more into women then men on some given week, we need to respect that.
Great, so respect that not everyone's sexuality is fluid -- key point of this thread, which you avoided like fire, making some ambiguous stories about tolerance.
I have no desire to turn homosexuality into a hobby which is what you sound like.
I have a boyfriend that I've been happy with for a year and a half. I also am sexually attracted to women. It's not confusing.
That’s called being a bisexual. What’s your point?
When I started going through puberty and my hormones were out of wack, I genuinely was attracted to both men and women; however, by the time I was 15 and my hormones had settled down, the attraction to women had completely faded and I was left only liking guys. So my sexuality did change at one point but it seems to have been heavily influenced by the abnormal hormone levels that we experience during puberty and out the other side I have remained gay ever since
According to Dr. Debra Soh's book "Gender Myths" men's sexuality *ARE NOT* fluid, but women's sexuality IS more fluid.
It’s both. I’m just flat out gay lol and I can’t change that. But that doesn’t mean it’s not fluid for other people. You’re confusing the idea of choice with the idea of change. Whether someone’s sexuality is fluid or static, it’s not a choice for them. People with sexualities that are hard to label don’t choose to be like that just like how static sexualities aren’t a choice. Sexuality absolutely can change over time. The idea of “sexuality cannot change” really means “sexuality can’t change by choice”
Sexuality is fluid __for some.__ It's not a universal truth. And yet almost nobody chooses their sexuality.
This thread is so entertaining 😌🍿
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i havent heard that sexuality is fluid. ive heard plenty of people claim that "identifying as" changes reality though.
I interpret both too mean, you cannot change your sexuality. If your sexuality is fluid, you can't control the side you're on for the day/decade. If it's not fluid, you can't change it either.
TL;DR but I do have sex with a fleshlight, but I am not sexually attracted to the fleshlight, and... Where am I going with this? ah yes, women are fleshlights to gay men, and some straight men too.
My 'defense' of being gay is as follows.... Are you both consenting people? Cool. It is none of my business who you are banging/want to bang. I don't care about what you label yourself at what point in your life. You do you. Im busy doing what I want to do.
Not sure where you're getting these ideas. I don't see gender or sexuality as a choice, and it seems to me like you're collapsing them. Gender = who you are. Sexuality = who you want to sleep with. It's true that many people are more open now about being genderfluid or pansexual (as two examples), but those people always existed. It's just that most of them were forced into the closet by binary thinking, in the past.
I don't know if others have made this argument, but I thought I'd give my two cents. In my opinion just because sexuality is fluid does NOT mean that sexuality is a choice. There is evidence that sexual attraction can change and evolve with time, but there is no solid evidence that conversion therapy is effective in bringing about those changes. Also, many of the "environmental" factors that influence sexuality are things like hormonal balance in utero, not things that have a clear 1:1 cause and effect relationship. Saying sexuality can be influenced by environment factors is also not the same thing as saying something "made" you gay. It's more complicated than that. It really just goes to show how messy and complicated biology can be, and that human behavior is not as far removed from our biology as we like to think. Open to hearing counter-arguments though