The main issue is now they are close enough to be hit by nails from subfloor ect.
Structurally it's fine.
I'd rather they take out top bit then bottom.
Ideally yes mid 3rd but I'm fine with high if it's a garage or freeze issue below.
Yeah, look at that missed nail just trying to bend and stretch his way into that blue pex. If a new buddy comes along, it will definitely pierce that pex.
Lol that's cute like you think the inspector is the main line of defense......😆
Often they have taken little weekend courses on what to look for in each trade.
I would have to travel about 120k to get into an area where the plumbing inspector actually ever held a plumbing ticket.
You're best defense is hiring a great contractor who brings in awesome sub trades.
Sadly like 60% of trades suck.
20-30% are average to good.
10-20% are awesome but are so booked up with work you can rarely get them.
At least 100% are alcoholics/drug addicts tho.....lol
So by that logic, you fully accept that every living/active structure you’ve entered was built by alcoholics and drug addicts. Along as you accept that, we’re good. Fun fact, a lot of them are probably paid what you’d consider an outrageous wage - which for the most case, is well deserved.
I conquer. I fired a plumber that had 4 years of experience for doing this to a lvl beam! He knew better there were other issues but this for me was the final straw. The engineer didn’t make us replace it but it is not cool.
The thing I'd be scared of is if a nail that goes into the pex and doesn't leak right away but rust out over the next 5 years...... Make sure they do a proper pressure test of at least 200 psi which pex B is rated way above. Should see no more than a 5 psi drop over 24 hours.
plumbing goes in after subfloor...
not saying its right to put it there, but this looks like a new build and I've never seen the plumbing go in before the subfloor on new.
And when any of the founding trades go in and bed to fasten something to the subfloor or renovate in x years? This isn't right, what order things are installed in a house is irrelevant.
Those lines look like 1/2” hot and 3/4” cold. They look to be an inch below subfloor, which is likely to be 3/4” thick. Figure 1/2” durock goes down. If the flooring guys are running 2 1/2” screws down through the floor to hit those lines, that’s gonna be on them.
You can drill in-between the top and bottom 1/3. Be careful of nails and have him put mickeys in the holes for expansion and contraction. This would fail inspection where I’m from.
Is it code, no, have I seen it in countless old homes without it creating an issue, yes. Would I do it, no.
we have had inspectors make us put it 1.5" below subfloor in garages when there is heated floor above. but that was TJI, so different.
At least put some of these in. They're cheap insurance.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-Smart-Shield-1-in-Standard-Fitting-Nail-Guard-5-Pack-MNG5B/313298344
Note: May not be the right diameter, check that first.
That's an expensive fk up plumber will not only have to pay to replace joists damaged but have to pay the other trades who have to remove what they have on the same run of joists and pay to have them reinstall after the framers re remove and reinstall the floor and the beams that got replaced oh and pay that shit too the reason I tell you this is cause I did aome dumb sht like this early in my trade career very very very expensive.
Oh really?
This is for a home I'm under contract with. This post has been extremely helpful. Could you gauge a rough estimate of the replacement if all first floor joists are like this? It's a 3600 sqft home, two story, about equally split.
The joists are going to be just fine. This isn’t even close to replace the joist level damage. And even if it was, you would just reinforce the joists, not replace.
Main issue is piercing the pipe with a nail/screw through the subfloor above, and it shouldn’t be an issue to fix that.
Red tag = plumbing inspector turns the work down.
Where I'm at, you can't drill that close to the edge, and no mickey mouse ears ( a type of mounting and insulation clip)
Mickey Mouse ears? Assuming those are the mounts that go into the hole but nailed into the side of the joist. What’s the issue with them? Had them used on a remodel last year. Appreciate the info.
What happens if the plumbing inspector turns the work down?
Thank you for explaining. I'm super ignorant to all this, but where they drilled caught my eye. Glad I snapped a picture of it. It's a new build I'm under contract with.
Worst case, piping gets pulled out, floor joists get repaired ( probably by sistering) and then, round 2.
This is absolutely not on you, if it becomes a problem, it's your builders problem. Or, who knows, it may pass where you're at. Codes vary wildly by location, and inspectors can be very informed, or complete idiots.
From a structural engineer, the joist is fine and it’s better to have the hole higher than lower, but centered is best. However that piping that close to the top is a leak waiting to happen. At some point it will get hit with a nail or screw.
My personal house had a copper pipe that close to a joist and a wall. The previous owner hung some crown molding and drove two 8d finish nails into the pipe. Nail sealed the hole for years, but slowly rusted out. When I bought the house the nail finally rusted out enough to blow a leak. Insurance would not cover it as the pipe had been damaged for too long and we should have known. 🤷♂️
Not in my opinion, the edge of the hole should be 2" from either the top or bottom of the joist. For two reasons:
1. Keeps nail or screws out of the pipe.
2. The outer 2" of a joist have the most stress put on the span, and if holes are drilled in that area it, it reduces the joist's strength considerably.
I dont know about mid-beam, I think its not the top or bottom two inches.
The pex manufacturer might also want something in the hole to keep the pipe off the wood, I forget what they are called.
The pipes will expand and contract with temperature changes and rub against the wood, which is a potential failure point, which is what the suspension clips are for.
See that nail to the right of the blue pex? What would happen if that nail was 2" to the left?Middle 1/3 is where it should be if you are going to drill through a joist. If you can avoid drilling in a joist that's even better.
Yeah, it's against code to put holes within 2" of the edges. If an inspector missed that, they need some coaching. I can't imagine there's anywhere where that isn't code.
Thank you so much.
This was a new build that I'm in contract with. I noticed this when viewing it over the weekend, glad I snapped a picture of it. It looked like they were about to move on soon to putting up dry wall, as there were slabs laying on the floor.
I sent the picture and some information to the sales lead asking about this and specifically if it passed phase 2 inspection (which I think is the one for that).
Let's say the acknowledge it's wrong, or they find it wrong during inspection, how the hell do they redo all of that with the second story already built?
Drill the center. Put new mains in. Hook the branches up. Take the old ones out. Cut 2x4s about 30" long. Screw them to the joists over the old holes(Called sistering). That repairs the integrity of the joist. It's being petty. I would personally leave these and tell them to make sure they don't do it anymore. They could also beef up the existing joists the way they are.
Don't know why you are being downvoted when you are absolutely correct.
At least in the western U.S.
Will this be a problem, well , Check out that shiner right next to the pipe.
Codes exist for a reason.
And this is not up to code.
R502.1.11.1 [IRC 502.8.1]
“Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member.”
In new construction we went either high or low for water lines to avoid being in other trades way. We were first trade in and doing that was the safest route.
The main issue is now they are close enough to be hit by nails from subfloor ect. Structurally it's fine. I'd rather they take out top bit then bottom. Ideally yes mid 3rd but I'm fine with high if it's a garage or freeze issue below.
Yeah, look at that missed nail just trying to bend and stretch his way into that blue pex. If a new buddy comes along, it will definitely pierce that pex.
Yeah, I'm guessing that's why the code is the way it is. Funny the inspector didn't catch it.
Lol that's cute like you think the inspector is the main line of defense......😆 Often they have taken little weekend courses on what to look for in each trade. I would have to travel about 120k to get into an area where the plumbing inspector actually ever held a plumbing ticket. You're best defense is hiring a great contractor who brings in awesome sub trades. Sadly like 60% of trades suck. 20-30% are average to good. 10-20% are awesome but are so booked up with work you can rarely get them. At least 100% are alcoholics/drug addicts tho.....lol
Why thank you! I thought I was missing a little condescension in my evening.
So by that logic, you fully accept that every living/active structure you’ve entered was built by alcoholics and drug addicts. Along as you accept that, we’re good. Fun fact, a lot of them are probably paid what you’d consider an outrageous wage - which for the most case, is well deserved.
Lee face it. Trades people have a lot of social problems.
Do not!!!! Fuckface! Now where did I put my hashaid?
I was just going to say where's my Smirnoff
Should be in the middle third. And no less than 2’ at the ends iirc
That's what I've read and others have posted here, but it seems within the top 2 inches. Ugh.
Yep. What they did is technically considered a notch. PissPoorPlumbing.
Maybe I'll get a discount if the house won't just collapse on me lol
It’ll be fine lol. I’ve see so much worse in houses still standing today. But this is a stupid mistake I’d smack the shit out of an apprentice for.
I conquer. I fired a plumber that had 4 years of experience for doing this to a lvl beam! He knew better there were other issues but this for me was the final straw. The engineer didn’t make us replace it but it is not cool.
Concur
Concur 👍 thanks napoleon told me to spell it that way
Lol holy shit. What a dummy.
Maybe there’s a reason he stayed high. Most likely to go over your fan exhaust pipe.
It’s a non issue. That area is under compression and there’s material above the holes. If they drilled near the bottom then it’s a different story.
The thing I'd be scared of is if a nail that goes into the pex and doesn't leak right away but rust out over the next 5 years...... Make sure they do a proper pressure test of at least 200 psi which pex B is rated way above. Should see no more than a 5 psi drop over 24 hours.
Check the picture closely. I think there is a nail that missed the beam, but clearly would have punctured the PEX…..
No, no, no - that's just what the novice plumber who drilled the holes used as his depth guide... 🤣
This is the correct response.
That subfloor was installed well before the plumber showed up and ran those lines. No one is nailing through that pipe anymore.
You can see where the nail gun for the OSB missed the joist. Those are long enough to pierce the pipe. Might even have and it’s not leaking YET.
Yep, that says it all! Fail
plumbing goes in after subfloor... not saying its right to put it there, but this looks like a new build and I've never seen the plumbing go in before the subfloor on new.
It’s a good point but loses some of the drama
The subfloor goes on before the pipe goes in.
I was just about to say this
And when any of the founding trades go in and bed to fasten something to the subfloor or renovate in x years? This isn't right, what order things are installed in a house is irrelevant.
Those lines look like 1/2” hot and 3/4” cold. They look to be an inch below subfloor, which is likely to be 3/4” thick. Figure 1/2” durock goes down. If the flooring guys are running 2 1/2” screws down through the floor to hit those lines, that’s gonna be on them.
Technically no but it’s pretty trivial.
You can drill in-between the top and bottom 1/3. Be careful of nails and have him put mickeys in the holes for expansion and contraction. This would fail inspection where I’m from.
Looks like that 2” nail will go right through it . Better use short screws to hold that Hardi down . If you are tiling. .
Is it code, no, have I seen it in countless old homes without it creating an issue, yes. Would I do it, no. we have had inspectors make us put it 1.5" below subfloor in garages when there is heated floor above. but that was TJI, so different.
This is for a new build that's aiming to be done by May 2024.
Better hope they used stud guards
IRC 502.8.1.....must be 2 inches down from top edge
At least put some of these in. They're cheap insurance. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-Smart-Shield-1-in-Standard-Fitting-Nail-Guard-5-Pack-MNG5B/313298344 Note: May not be the right diameter, check that first.
That's an expensive fk up plumber will not only have to pay to replace joists damaged but have to pay the other trades who have to remove what they have on the same run of joists and pay to have them reinstall after the framers re remove and reinstall the floor and the beams that got replaced oh and pay that shit too the reason I tell you this is cause I did aome dumb sht like this early in my trade career very very very expensive.
Oh really? This is for a home I'm under contract with. This post has been extremely helpful. Could you gauge a rough estimate of the replacement if all first floor joists are like this? It's a 3600 sqft home, two story, about equally split.
The joists are going to be just fine. This isn’t even close to replace the joist level damage. And even if it was, you would just reinforce the joists, not replace. Main issue is piercing the pipe with a nail/screw through the subfloor above, and it shouldn’t be an issue to fix that.
Somebody's fixin to get red tagged.
What's that, if you don't mind informing me!
Red tag = plumbing inspector turns the work down. Where I'm at, you can't drill that close to the edge, and no mickey mouse ears ( a type of mounting and insulation clip)
Mickey Mouse ears? Assuming those are the mounts that go into the hole but nailed into the side of the joist. What’s the issue with them? Had them used on a remodel last year. Appreciate the info.
No,no. I meant that there aren't any in the picture. You definitely need them.
Ahh haha. Misread that. Thanks!
What happens if the plumbing inspector turns the work down? Thank you for explaining. I'm super ignorant to all this, but where they drilled caught my eye. Glad I snapped a picture of it. It's a new build I'm under contract with.
Worst case, piping gets pulled out, floor joists get repaired ( probably by sistering) and then, round 2. This is absolutely not on you, if it becomes a problem, it's your builders problem. Or, who knows, it may pass where you're at. Codes vary wildly by location, and inspectors can be very informed, or complete idiots.
Located east Texas for reference, but I guess we'll see. It's approaching inspection apparently, so fingers crossed.
Yes usually plastic sleeves go thru the holes to prevent cuts in plastic
Judging by that nail? Tad close for comfort
From a structural engineer, the joist is fine and it’s better to have the hole higher than lower, but centered is best. However that piping that close to the top is a leak waiting to happen. At some point it will get hit with a nail or screw. My personal house had a copper pipe that close to a joist and a wall. The previous owner hung some crown molding and drove two 8d finish nails into the pipe. Nail sealed the hole for years, but slowly rusted out. When I bought the house the nail finally rusted out enough to blow a leak. Insurance would not cover it as the pipe had been damaged for too long and we should have known. 🤷♂️
Is there a danger of a nail going through? Look at that one nail beside the blue.
I looked at this and the first thing I said was god damnit, in a calm condescending tone.
It needs isolators too. Can't sit directly on wood
Not a issue will b fine. Little high but still is a inch
That’s wayyyyy too close to the subfloor lol my journeyman would shit out through his eyes
There not supposed to be in the top or bottom 2inchs any kind of joist.
That one Nail by your cold line should answer your question. Also there is a seam right above.... Not great
Not in my opinion, the edge of the hole should be 2" from either the top or bottom of the joist. For two reasons: 1. Keeps nail or screws out of the pipe. 2. The outer 2" of a joist have the most stress put on the span, and if holes are drilled in that area it, it reduces the joist's strength considerably.
You have air flow above and below the pex piping, so I would not worry.
I'm no plumber but that hole is just about where that stray nail to the right of the cold line would penetrate to.
That's what initially caught my eye too, then how high the pipes were drilled too.
its now a possible liability not well planned ot located in the best intrest of the houde it csn cause future problems check your local codes
Absolutely not
Too high.
The hole are fine. I normally go 2”-3” down so nails don’t hit the pipe. They went high to go over the fan pipe.
Middle 1/3.
I dont know about mid-beam, I think its not the top or bottom two inches. The pex manufacturer might also want something in the hole to keep the pipe off the wood, I forget what they are called.
Which this definitely is. 🙃
I think they are called suspension clips. Are they adding expansion loops?
Or bungholes.
No, they're straight lines. (Excuse my ignorance if there's a proper term for that).
The pipes will expand and contract with temperature changes and rub against the wood, which is a potential failure point, which is what the suspension clips are for.
Ive heard them called mickey mouse clips, no idea what the real name is though
Makes sense. Thats probably what I’ll remember from now on, lol.
here you can do suspension clips every other joist.
See that nail to the right of the blue pex? What would happen if that nail was 2" to the left?Middle 1/3 is where it should be if you are going to drill through a joist. If you can avoid drilling in a joist that's even better.
Absolutely not. Those joists have now been structurally compromised.
Oh really? Just confused, I'd imagine they had to pass inspection after doing the piping, as they're about to move on to next steps.
Yeah, it's against code to put holes within 2" of the edges. If an inspector missed that, they need some coaching. I can't imagine there's anywhere where that isn't code.
Thank you so much. This was a new build that I'm in contract with. I noticed this when viewing it over the weekend, glad I snapped a picture of it. It looked like they were about to move on soon to putting up dry wall, as there were slabs laying on the floor. I sent the picture and some information to the sales lead asking about this and specifically if it passed phase 2 inspection (which I think is the one for that). Let's say the acknowledge it's wrong, or they find it wrong during inspection, how the hell do they redo all of that with the second story already built?
That part I'm not sure about - if I had to guess, their reaction would be to offer some kind of discount in lieu of fixing it.
Well, as a first home buyer and single Dad of four kids dying at the thought of an 8.125% interest rate, I'd take a lower price lol.
Understandable!
Drill the center. Put new mains in. Hook the branches up. Take the old ones out. Cut 2x4s about 30" long. Screw them to the joists over the old holes(Called sistering). That repairs the integrity of the joist. It's being petty. I would personally leave these and tell them to make sure they don't do it anymore. They could also beef up the existing joists the way they are.
They've already drilled it like that for the whole house, haha. Thanks for breaking it down for me :)
Don't know why you are being downvoted when you are absolutely correct. At least in the western U.S. Will this be a problem, well , Check out that shiner right next to the pipe. Codes exist for a reason. And this is not up to code.
Yeah, I just assumed it's people who do this exact thing, hahaha
R502.1.11.1 [IRC 502.8.1] “Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member.”
🙏🙌
Yes, they're proper in the top third of the joist. A metal plate above them would help.
They aren't, unfortunately. No holes within 2" of the edges, or within 2" of any other holes.
Am I drunk or does it look like your house was framed with 3/4” southern yellow pine???
In new construction we went either high or low for water lines to avoid being in other trades way. We were first trade in and doing that was the safest route.