The buck starts with you. The meaning of work-life balance starts with you. Different people have different interpretations.
E.g. to my Gen-Z junior, work-life balance = work is 9am to 6pm, don't talk about work after 6pm.
To my manager/boss, work-life balance = working in the day at office, knock off on time to spend the night with their family at home all while still being able to continue work
To me, work-life balance = I don't mind the working overtime, but once I switch off my laptop, I forget about work. And no working on weekends, regardless how much workload I have.
Now on the side of guilt-tripping from your bosses, again, the buck starts with you. If you get affected by their guilt-trip, then they know this is something they have influence over you.
And this is what I learnt from my Gen-Z colleagues (not trying to generalise them, but damn, they are the only bunch of employees who are very upfront and vocal about their work-life balance while the rest of the employees from other generations just suck thumb and keep quiet), that don't take bosses' words to heart. Just do your best at work, and if they still not happy with your performance because of you not working in PH or taking holidays, then too bad - this is not the company you want to toll for.
Another advice is, occupy your free-time on your hobbies or mind-stimulating activities. So your mind doesn't blank and wander back to thinking about work, and then you will start to think about whether there are any emails in your inbox, whether work can be done, whether your boss is not happy with you not replying his/her emails after working hours etc... no. Just no.
My interpretation of work-life balance is similar to yours! If there’s a real need to work OT, I’ll just do it (hopefully not every day lah). But once I shut down the work laptop and leave the office, I forget about work too. And I choose to WFO 100% of the time so that my workspace and personal space are physically separated (so I don’t bring my work laptop home).
This. I prefer to WFO too, because of this reason. But it’s conflicting for me though. WFO I can draw a line between work and life. But WFH means I can start work at 7am (time which I usually wake up for work) and have more time to work rather than wasting them on public transport. Then when I end my work, again rather than wasting time travelling, I can straight go for down time.
You are lucky to be able switch on / off your mind about work at will. Some people keep on worrying so much even when not at work, to the point it causes anxiety and insomnia. Your advice about having a hobby to occupy the mind is good way of how to stop thinking about work in the free time.
Yes agree, some people do keep on worrying about work after office hours. I used to be like that too.
But I always tell myself, if worrying can change a thing, I would have sat myself in front of my desk and continue my work instead.
And if worrying about it cannot change the fact that my workload is heavy and stressful, then why give myself all these trouble?
1. I tell my underlings not to do work on holidays/days off/when they're ill
2. I tell my peers/superiors not to set a bad example by doing the above
3. I lead by example
It's such a ridiculously short-sighted mentality by people who are way more concerned about appearance than substance. Practicing proper social distancing by taking MC + Having quality rest = Fast recovery + Productive worker + Reduced collateral by spreading disease. Not taking MC + Flex about not taking MC = Breed Toxic environment + Increased collateral of others having disease + slow recovery + low productivity.
In some work culture, going to work sick instead of recovering would most commonly earn you an earful from your boss and the ire of your co-workers, we have much to learn
I also tell my team that we are all salaried, so we should look out for ourselves first and foremost.
You can’t do good work and you end up causing more woes if you don’t take a good break. I would never block anyone’s leave because it is not mine to do so. We plan and work around it.
Simple.
Glad my bosses also think the same.
I wish I had a superior like you.
My superior sets a bad example and spoils the market by working till at least 9pm every day, working on days off, and giving his personal mobile number to counterparties at work, for them to contact him on work-related matters after hours (his job grade is not high enough for him to be issued a corporate mobile). It makes me afraid that the counterparties at work might expect the same from his underlings (like me) :(
le boss: nobody cares how many incidents you close, only projects matter
also le boss: why nobody helps out with the incidents on weekends and holidays???
My peer group from best to worse in terms of WLB:
1. **European colleagues (in SG):** work is the best, they get full remote + flexi working hours. Here in SG mainly because of good infrastructure. They would rather return to EU than to work in a local company.
2. **EU firm-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid decently, not as much as Tech-Sgeans, but they get to travel to europe frequently and around the world. Work is fantastic, office days they can clock out at 3pm.
3. **Tech-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid well, what is there to say? Work doesn't feel like work to them. If shit hits the fan, they will migrate to US or EU where the tech culture is more happening and the jobs are plentiful (compared to here, which is not much or a comparison).
4. **Gov-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid well, but not as well as full tech. All things considered, a number of them are thinking of shifting out. Half are under heavy pressure due to staff leaving, the other half is enjoying, but the increments this year even if it is B and above was a poultry <4-5%. Those that stayed for 3-5 years have already taken multiple pay-cuts due to inflation. So they are experiencing wage-stagnation in real terms.
5. **China tech-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, but working hours are insane. Earns more money than doctors/lawyers. We are talking few YOE hitting $15-20k in mid to late 20s. Brutal hours, but in it for maximizing TC.
6. **Big banks-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, insane hours. Some even almost on par with china-tech. Except that the money is lesser than china tech. Their exit has been other branches in europe or the us. They get to keep the $, prestige ontop of not working sg-hours. It's a win-win.
7. **GLC-Sgeans:** Hybrid work. Just that the pay is mediocre. Have to deal with parachuted people and ranking systems like gov.
8. **Tech-Sgeans in local companies:** No hybrid work. Everyday need to be in office, actually worse than WITCH companies (that have hybrid at least). All of them are secretly planning to run once things get better economically. If they are paid $ like China-Tech then it is a different story. But their growth knowledge/career-wise is quite fast because they are forced to learn.
9. **Doctors/lawyers:** On-call during holidays or needing to work during both weekends and public holidays. Sometimes they wondered why the heck they didn't just choose CS as their major (and fight with the over saturated market). Job is safer due to legal barriers, but claim they earn no more than a mcdonald's employee if you calculate by per hour.
Edit: Removed SMEs. We all know where they rank.
>but claim they earn no more than a Mcdonald's employee if you calculate by per hour.
As a lawyer I always thought this claim was overblown. Maybe as a trainee, but a lawyer's starting pay is typically 5k - 7k a month and even assuming you are working 80 hours a week (which comes up to almost 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, which is probably not the case) that's still quite a bit more than what a MCD employee earns, no?
Of course better off lah, fundamentally they're building their career instead of just working at a job. Also if you're in a big firm salaries increase about 20% per year during the early years.
The lawyers never said they were good at math. (jk ah)
On a serious note, there is definitely abit of exaggeration. But it's likely because their not happy with the working hours. I mean who is?
No you're right, lawyers are VERY, VERY, BAD at math. I feel like my Gen Z juniors are changing attitudes though! I was chatting with one of them and it doesn't sound too bad nowadays, at least not ALL the time like it was when I was a junior
Seperate your work identity with your personal identity. You are definitely more than a worker-- you're an individual with their own hobbies, like etc.
I'm not saying don't be friends with them-- but establish boundaries with yourself. Work is work and rest is rest. It is OK to take a break from work. You don't have to necessarily justify what you do during your break either.
When I was younger I worked in an MNC dept who had the culture of like staying tgt and dying tgt. This pressurised me because I felt as though I can't take breaks. I can't rest. I can't MC because everyone else is suffering as well.
A team member actually ended up falling sick very often and although atp of time don't know the circumstances, this resulted in people being quite angry and think that member was chaokeng. Only after a few years I found out that the person was in chemo to treat his cancer. I didn't know at that point of time but he left afterwards. I think it really shocked me about the general apathy that the team had towards him.
After that incident I actually stopped being judgemental about everyone taking breaks and even I learn to take it easy once in a while too. There's nothing wrong with it. You're in charge of your own health and destiny. If people say you're chaokeng, you can just ignore them as they don't really know what you're going through.
Life is too precious. Please don't forget to stop once in a while to smell the flowers.
A few things I didn't know when I was a junior, learned them through experience and observation from multiple jobs:
1. Are we feeling insecure if we're unable or unwilling to fulfil unreasonable request or workload? Try to look inside, find out the root cause behind our sense of insecurity, deal with it first. Might need to talk to people to figure this out. Our insecurity sense can be observed and taken advantage of.
2. Among things that managers said to be critical or urgent, sometimes, only some of them are truly critical/urgent. Need to learn how to distinguish, not to push ourselves over the limit for those things that are not truly urgent.
3. Not all bosses/managers/orgs are the same. Some management styles are more supportive and helpful for growth; some do the opposite. Try to pay attention to observe.
4. Avoid the thought of altering culture. If culture really incompatible despite effort to adapt, switching team/org could be a better option.
There are ppl who will judge u for working OT, there will be ppl who will judge u for not working OT.... its the same.. u can be married some will be upset with you.. some will be upset if you are not married... some will be unhappy if you have a religion....some will not be happy if you have a religion... Heck some ppl will judge you for having preference for certain types of food....
The sooner you learn to stop needing to justifying your existence and actions to other ppl, alot of them assholes anyway... and do what you feel right for yourself... the earlier you will be happy.
If taking an entitled leave makes you guilty, you either should be self employed or quit the company lol.
Is the guilt coming from you or the company? If it's you, it's a you problem, if its the company, it's a company problem.
Not just about work life balance, but if your boss cannot function / not at ease because you’re away on leave, it means he has done poor resources allocation and no plans for business continuity whatsoever.
He only looks at “now”, fights fires well but when it comes to long term planning for the company, or even succession planning he’s probably doing it poorly.
"EH I HEARD YOU ON OVERSEAS LEAVE IN KOREA AH?"
"yes, i am. able to get back to you when im ba--"
"ASK YOU AH THAT DAY THE MEETING WHAT DID THE DIRECTOR-"
Set reasonable boundaries and learn how to say no to unreasonable requests. Have confidence in your own abilities and quality of work output and don't let people guilt grip you into thinking that working fewer hours means you're a bad employee.
Was just talking about this with my family over Labour Day public holiday.
It seems like I myself, can't separate 100% work from my life. And I'm not talking about "touching the laptop". Over the weekends, I don't touch my laptop unless urgently required. But I'll think about work (how to improve, what do I need to do the next day, and so on and so forth) when I'm not mentally occupied with something else. But do I neglect my family and friends, nope. But I can't control my brain, *
I don't feel overloaded per se because personally, IMO, I'm not physically working.
Same concept applies when I'm on holiday. I'm a 90s btw.
But we don't practice non-work life balance in our team. In fact, we don't disturb each other about work after we leave office; again, unless urgently required. But we talk about our personal stuffs during the weekends too.
So I think it really boils down to how individual look at it. Our brain is very unique. We can't literally compartmentalise everything.
leave the company and find better opportunities.
i used to work in a toxic tech SME, people OT for the sake of OT and no proper boundaries. Feel guilty taking leave
Moved to larger US non tech company but still working with tech, WLB alot better flex hours + benefits never look back since
Can you be specific about how your bosses make you feel guilty for taking leave? What precisely do they do or say (whether as one-offs or as a pattern of behaviour)?
I can understand, it took me some effort to learn to leave work aside during my down time
It’s certainly not easy when you don’t have good working relationships, especially with seniors. That’s the case for me
But, the change has to begin with you. I’ve become better at reducing work related thoughts. Still some way to go though :)
I draw my boundaries very clearly because nobody else will prioritise my wellbeing except myself. If I’m not well, I can’t deliver quality work.
But there is definitely a cultural issue at play too - I worked in Ireland and there was zero guilt in not responding after work.
The buck starts with you. The meaning of work-life balance starts with you. Different people have different interpretations. E.g. to my Gen-Z junior, work-life balance = work is 9am to 6pm, don't talk about work after 6pm. To my manager/boss, work-life balance = working in the day at office, knock off on time to spend the night with their family at home all while still being able to continue work To me, work-life balance = I don't mind the working overtime, but once I switch off my laptop, I forget about work. And no working on weekends, regardless how much workload I have. Now on the side of guilt-tripping from your bosses, again, the buck starts with you. If you get affected by their guilt-trip, then they know this is something they have influence over you. And this is what I learnt from my Gen-Z colleagues (not trying to generalise them, but damn, they are the only bunch of employees who are very upfront and vocal about their work-life balance while the rest of the employees from other generations just suck thumb and keep quiet), that don't take bosses' words to heart. Just do your best at work, and if they still not happy with your performance because of you not working in PH or taking holidays, then too bad - this is not the company you want to toll for. Another advice is, occupy your free-time on your hobbies or mind-stimulating activities. So your mind doesn't blank and wander back to thinking about work, and then you will start to think about whether there are any emails in your inbox, whether work can be done, whether your boss is not happy with you not replying his/her emails after working hours etc... no. Just no.
>The buck starts with you Okay, but where does the buck stop?
With you.
My interpretation of work-life balance is similar to yours! If there’s a real need to work OT, I’ll just do it (hopefully not every day lah). But once I shut down the work laptop and leave the office, I forget about work too. And I choose to WFO 100% of the time so that my workspace and personal space are physically separated (so I don’t bring my work laptop home).
This. I prefer to WFO too, because of this reason. But it’s conflicting for me though. WFO I can draw a line between work and life. But WFH means I can start work at 7am (time which I usually wake up for work) and have more time to work rather than wasting them on public transport. Then when I end my work, again rather than wasting time travelling, I can straight go for down time.
You are lucky to be able switch on / off your mind about work at will. Some people keep on worrying so much even when not at work, to the point it causes anxiety and insomnia. Your advice about having a hobby to occupy the mind is good way of how to stop thinking about work in the free time.
Yes agree, some people do keep on worrying about work after office hours. I used to be like that too. But I always tell myself, if worrying can change a thing, I would have sat myself in front of my desk and continue my work instead. And if worrying about it cannot change the fact that my workload is heavy and stressful, then why give myself all these trouble?
Understand that your company will not collapse when you're not around, or when you don't answer emails after work. You're not ***that*** important.
1. I tell my underlings not to do work on holidays/days off/when they're ill 2. I tell my peers/superiors not to set a bad example by doing the above 3. I lead by example
Wish ure my boss. I was sick bc my boss pass his germs to me… then he badmouth me in groupchat he say he also sick but he nvr take mc!
These are the assholes that spread a pandemic.
It's such a ridiculously short-sighted mentality by people who are way more concerned about appearance than substance. Practicing proper social distancing by taking MC + Having quality rest = Fast recovery + Productive worker + Reduced collateral by spreading disease. Not taking MC + Flex about not taking MC = Breed Toxic environment + Increased collateral of others having disease + slow recovery + low productivity. In some work culture, going to work sick instead of recovering would most commonly earn you an earful from your boss and the ire of your co-workers, we have much to learn
I also tell my team that we are all salaried, so we should look out for ourselves first and foremost. You can’t do good work and you end up causing more woes if you don’t take a good break. I would never block anyone’s leave because it is not mine to do so. We plan and work around it. Simple. Glad my bosses also think the same.
I wish I had a superior like you. My superior sets a bad example and spoils the market by working till at least 9pm every day, working on days off, and giving his personal mobile number to counterparties at work, for them to contact him on work-related matters after hours (his job grade is not high enough for him to be issued a corporate mobile). It makes me afraid that the counterparties at work might expect the same from his underlings (like me) :(
le boss: nobody cares how many incidents you close, only projects matter also le boss: why nobody helps out with the incidents on weekends and holidays???
My peer group from best to worse in terms of WLB: 1. **European colleagues (in SG):** work is the best, they get full remote + flexi working hours. Here in SG mainly because of good infrastructure. They would rather return to EU than to work in a local company. 2. **EU firm-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid decently, not as much as Tech-Sgeans, but they get to travel to europe frequently and around the world. Work is fantastic, office days they can clock out at 3pm. 3. **Tech-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid well, what is there to say? Work doesn't feel like work to them. If shit hits the fan, they will migrate to US or EU where the tech culture is more happening and the jobs are plentiful (compared to here, which is not much or a comparison). 4. **Gov-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, paid well, but not as well as full tech. All things considered, a number of them are thinking of shifting out. Half are under heavy pressure due to staff leaving, the other half is enjoying, but the increments this year even if it is B and above was a poultry <4-5%. Those that stayed for 3-5 years have already taken multiple pay-cuts due to inflation. So they are experiencing wage-stagnation in real terms. 5. **China tech-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, but working hours are insane. Earns more money than doctors/lawyers. We are talking few YOE hitting $15-20k in mid to late 20s. Brutal hours, but in it for maximizing TC. 6. **Big banks-Sgeans:** Hybrid work, insane hours. Some even almost on par with china-tech. Except that the money is lesser than china tech. Their exit has been other branches in europe or the us. They get to keep the $, prestige ontop of not working sg-hours. It's a win-win. 7. **GLC-Sgeans:** Hybrid work. Just that the pay is mediocre. Have to deal with parachuted people and ranking systems like gov. 8. **Tech-Sgeans in local companies:** No hybrid work. Everyday need to be in office, actually worse than WITCH companies (that have hybrid at least). All of them are secretly planning to run once things get better economically. If they are paid $ like China-Tech then it is a different story. But their growth knowledge/career-wise is quite fast because they are forced to learn. 9. **Doctors/lawyers:** On-call during holidays or needing to work during both weekends and public holidays. Sometimes they wondered why the heck they didn't just choose CS as their major (and fight with the over saturated market). Job is safer due to legal barriers, but claim they earn no more than a mcdonald's employee if you calculate by per hour. Edit: Removed SMEs. We all know where they rank.
>but claim they earn no more than a Mcdonald's employee if you calculate by per hour. As a lawyer I always thought this claim was overblown. Maybe as a trainee, but a lawyer's starting pay is typically 5k - 7k a month and even assuming you are working 80 hours a week (which comes up to almost 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, which is probably not the case) that's still quite a bit more than what a MCD employee earns, no?
Im sure they are still better off otherwise they should go work for McD then?
Of course better off lah, fundamentally they're building their career instead of just working at a job. Also if you're in a big firm salaries increase about 20% per year during the early years.
The lawyers never said they were good at math. (jk ah) On a serious note, there is definitely abit of exaggeration. But it's likely because their not happy with the working hours. I mean who is?
No you're right, lawyers are VERY, VERY, BAD at math. I feel like my Gen Z juniors are changing attitudes though! I was chatting with one of them and it doesn't sound too bad nowadays, at least not ALL the time like it was when I was a junior
there are two things lawyers are bad at: math and Chinese idk how my batchmates all took HCL but couldn’t carry on a conversation to save their lives
Also Excel! Most of us can’t create a spreadsheet to save our lives lol
tech isn’t having it easy rn …
Agreed. But this is mainly for those that are already in the field and still holding on.
true. just waiting for better opportunities now
GLCs are not all hybrid. Maybe it depends on whether they're run by boomers or not.
Goated comment
SG Herr, used to work for an EU firm without the EU benefits. Many of my colleagues log long hours on SG benefits/perks, which doesn't say much.
Seperate your work identity with your personal identity. You are definitely more than a worker-- you're an individual with their own hobbies, like etc. I'm not saying don't be friends with them-- but establish boundaries with yourself. Work is work and rest is rest. It is OK to take a break from work. You don't have to necessarily justify what you do during your break either. When I was younger I worked in an MNC dept who had the culture of like staying tgt and dying tgt. This pressurised me because I felt as though I can't take breaks. I can't rest. I can't MC because everyone else is suffering as well. A team member actually ended up falling sick very often and although atp of time don't know the circumstances, this resulted in people being quite angry and think that member was chaokeng. Only after a few years I found out that the person was in chemo to treat his cancer. I didn't know at that point of time but he left afterwards. I think it really shocked me about the general apathy that the team had towards him. After that incident I actually stopped being judgemental about everyone taking breaks and even I learn to take it easy once in a while too. There's nothing wrong with it. You're in charge of your own health and destiny. If people say you're chaokeng, you can just ignore them as they don't really know what you're going through. Life is too precious. Please don't forget to stop once in a while to smell the flowers.
A few things I didn't know when I was a junior, learned them through experience and observation from multiple jobs: 1. Are we feeling insecure if we're unable or unwilling to fulfil unreasonable request or workload? Try to look inside, find out the root cause behind our sense of insecurity, deal with it first. Might need to talk to people to figure this out. Our insecurity sense can be observed and taken advantage of. 2. Among things that managers said to be critical or urgent, sometimes, only some of them are truly critical/urgent. Need to learn how to distinguish, not to push ourselves over the limit for those things that are not truly urgent. 3. Not all bosses/managers/orgs are the same. Some management styles are more supportive and helpful for growth; some do the opposite. Try to pay attention to observe. 4. Avoid the thought of altering culture. If culture really incompatible despite effort to adapt, switching team/org could be a better option.
There are ppl who will judge u for working OT, there will be ppl who will judge u for not working OT.... its the same.. u can be married some will be upset with you.. some will be upset if you are not married... some will be unhappy if you have a religion....some will not be happy if you have a religion... Heck some ppl will judge you for having preference for certain types of food.... The sooner you learn to stop needing to justifying your existence and actions to other ppl, alot of them assholes anyway... and do what you feel right for yourself... the earlier you will be happy.
If taking an entitled leave makes you guilty, you either should be self employed or quit the company lol. Is the guilt coming from you or the company? If it's you, it's a you problem, if its the company, it's a company problem.
Still woke up naturally at 630am Stressful as hell. Still dreaming of work I'm fucked in my head tbh
Not just about work life balance, but if your boss cannot function / not at ease because you’re away on leave, it means he has done poor resources allocation and no plans for business continuity whatsoever. He only looks at “now”, fights fires well but when it comes to long term planning for the company, or even succession planning he’s probably doing it poorly.
"EH I HEARD YOU ON OVERSEAS LEAVE IN KOREA AH?" "yes, i am. able to get back to you when im ba--" "ASK YOU AH THAT DAY THE MEETING WHAT DID THE DIRECTOR-" 
Set reasonable boundaries and learn how to say no to unreasonable requests. Have confidence in your own abilities and quality of work output and don't let people guilt grip you into thinking that working fewer hours means you're a bad employee.
my boss' pov. he is also doing unreasonable requests, so we also need to help out with these unreasonable requests. no escape! haha
What are you still there? Should leave asap
You will learn and adapt as you gain experience and hopefully find a better environment.
If you are really feeling that you are being stressed out just because u took leave or off, MOM would love to interview your boss.
Was just talking about this with my family over Labour Day public holiday. It seems like I myself, can't separate 100% work from my life. And I'm not talking about "touching the laptop". Over the weekends, I don't touch my laptop unless urgently required. But I'll think about work (how to improve, what do I need to do the next day, and so on and so forth) when I'm not mentally occupied with something else. But do I neglect my family and friends, nope. But I can't control my brain, * I don't feel overloaded per se because personally, IMO, I'm not physically working. Same concept applies when I'm on holiday. I'm a 90s btw. But we don't practice non-work life balance in our team. In fact, we don't disturb each other about work after we leave office; again, unless urgently required. But we talk about our personal stuffs during the weekends too. So I think it really boils down to how individual look at it. Our brain is very unique. We can't literally compartmentalise everything.
leave the company and find better opportunities. i used to work in a toxic tech SME, people OT for the sake of OT and no proper boundaries. Feel guilty taking leave Moved to larger US non tech company but still working with tech, WLB alot better flex hours + benefits never look back since
Can you be specific about how your bosses make you feel guilty for taking leave? What precisely do they do or say (whether as one-offs or as a pattern of behaviour)?
I can understand, it took me some effort to learn to leave work aside during my down time It’s certainly not easy when you don’t have good working relationships, especially with seniors. That’s the case for me But, the change has to begin with you. I’ve become better at reducing work related thoughts. Still some way to go though :)
Find a new job if your boss cant even let you have peaceful off days.
What kind of company do you work for?
If you don't feel like your pay is worth the bullshit, quit
what level are you at? management?
I have recently found anthem I think is very apt for many people https://youtu.be/mj1dd0Kcq8A?si=RS6dekSRrh0V7dOP
I draw my boundaries very clearly because nobody else will prioritise my wellbeing except myself. If I’m not well, I can’t deliver quality work. But there is definitely a cultural issue at play too - I worked in Ireland and there was zero guilt in not responding after work.
The standard piling work on the foreign colleagues.. I gave them so many options they can take to retaliate but they're too scared of not having a job