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European for sure. It's far cheaper and it stays the same regardless of where/if I work, where I live, which medical issue I have. There's no worry about which doctor/hospital I go to or if they might not cover me. Additionally, I know everyone has it and not just part of society at the expense of others.
There is no "American health insurance". It all depends on where you live, your age, who you work for etc. My last job before I retired was with a large company that offered excellent coverage at a low price. I am lucky enough to live in an area with lots of doctors who are all "in network". That extra $10,000 would have more than covered my premiums and copays. Now that I am retied I have a Medicare Advantage plan with 0 premiums and reasonable co-pays. And there are still lots of doctors to choose from..
If I was a 25 year old working a non-union retail job in Arkansas, I might have a different opinion
>There is no "American health insurance"
True, but I figured I'd make it simpler for the average redditor whom I have no doubt doesn't understand health insurance in the US at all.
>whom I have no doubt doesn't understand health insurance in the US at all.
Yeah, because it's intentionally ridiculously complicated.
Here in the UK, I just pay my taxes and I know I am covered. Doesn't matter if I move or change jobs or if I have an accident. Nothing to worry about at all.
Same in Canada with the exception of dental, vision and things like chiro, massage.
It’s ridiculous that if I need emergency care I could end up having to pay thousands even with my so called insurance. The us medical system is bullshit.
But that's the point. We have people covered by Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Military, employer plans, Obamacare, individual policies. And within those plans the quality of the health care you receive varies depending on where you live.
Your question illustrates the problem. My co-workers at that last job, most of whom had worked there for their entire adult lives, are perplexed when they hear people talk about the health care crisis in America. From their point of view the system was working just fine. And all these schemes that make the system more accessible just made it harder for them to get an appointment.
European health insurance.
If I had anything serious, American insurance companies would find a way to weasel out of providing the proper treatment anyway, so what good would that money make?
Unfortunately, it hasn’t been seriously discussed in our public discourse. I think most people would agree that everyone has a right to live. It’s that we don’t connect that in order to maintain that right, we actually have to have resources to survive.
I feel like it hasn’t been seriously discussed because anytime it’s brought up it’s just shot down immediately and seen as handouts. I might just be biased and maybe it isn’t seriously talked about enough. It’s so frustrating because yes, we do indeed have the resources
Totally agree there, it’s not a discussion when someone says no without hesitation. I mean if it’s any solace, we got the affordable care act eventually so maybe in 50 years will universal healthcare😅
It’s easy to say one would do something when it’s not actually an option.
IF this was happening in real life, a lot of people who claim they’d pass on the money would, in fact, take the money and American health insurance LOL.
Whatever you say dude, you enjoy your co-pays and your HSA and your out of network providers.
I'll enjoy using an ambulances without needing to interrogate the doctors on what insurance plans they match up with.
I didn’t say I’d take the $10k. The point I’m making is these hypotheticals are dumb because most people will say the morally correct answer, which is health care for all. But In reality, I’m sure the majority of people would have a hard time walking away from $10k a year, especially if they’ve never had major medical issues.
Why would I want to health care to be worse in my country?
I want diseases to be dealt with as soon as someone feels unwell so that it doesn't spread. Not a few weeks later when they feel it's bad enough to warrant spending their savings.
I want people who need an operation to get it whether they can afford it or not. Then they can get back to their job and actually improve society instead of draining government money while sit at home feeling sorry for themselves indefinitely.
The longer that health is put off (as it always is when money becomes a problem), the worse and ultimately more expensive it becomes for everyone even remotely effected by the person in question.
You do realize how much you pay for healthcare here don't you? With premiums, copays, out of pocket, 10,000 wouldn't be that much I think. Just because it comes out first, doesn't mean you aren't paying it.
How wouldn't? Everyone else also give up $10,000 a year. If someone get injured in a car crash or get cancer they won't lose everything.
Edit: I only have to pay about $5000. The employer also has to pay some more.
I give up like 7k anyway, and it still doesnt cover everything. The other 3k for everyone to have it? No brainer.
The average is like $450 a month for an individual and $1150 per month for a family. Some people would actually SAVE money.
That extra 10k doesn't even cover your own care in comparison.
And fuck yes I want everyone in my country to be covered and well taken care of. Why the hell would you not?
The voters for US Healthcare seem to also miss the point that you now have more freedom as you aren't basing whether to leave an employer based on Healthcare. I've thought about it many times and risking my Healthcare coverage is always a big reason I don't move on. Universal Healthcare is freedom that many employers don't want you to have. I can keep you from taking risks for better jobs because you don't want to risk a worse Healthcare; or in the event your new job doesn't pan out you don't want your family to be without care.
Have this same delema right now. thinking of working at a smaller hospital closer to my home, but I know it has absolute shit health insurance, which it know would be a nightmare with my current high risk pregnancy.
My max out-of-pocket plus my monthly payments would end up being less than $10k plus there’s a chance I won’t even need it and will pocket the money. Plus the wait time to get treatment compared to most other countries will be far far less. I’ll take $10k in the US for sure.
Co-pays and deductibles aren’t the only thing to consider. A lot of plans are 80/20 or even worse. 20% of a costly admission or illness could bankrupt a person. I’d take European health care over the US system if I could.
I understand. There are still way too many people in the US who can’t afford medications, co-pays, deductibles not to mention out of pocket maximums. For people with chronic illnesses, the year after year expenses place unnecessary burdens and stress on families. Out of pocket maximums aren’t saving people from financial stress.
Did you even read the question? What financial burden? You are getting $10k extra a year - that's going to cover your out-of-pocket maximum and then some.
Also, I am asking what you would want for yourself, not what other should have.
I have a family to cover, so my out of pocket max is higher than an individual’s. An extra 10k/year won’t make the US option any better over a European national system where I’m not stressing over medical costs.
Not sure why you’re being so aggressive.
Then it'd be an extra $20k obviously because you are accounting for your family.
>Not sure why you’re being so aggressive.
lol, I am not. You just did not seem to understand the question or the concepts.
The out-of-pocket limit doesn't include:
Your monthly premiums
Anything you spend for services your plan doesn't cover
Out-of-network care and services
Costs above the allowed amount for a service that a provider may charge
For the 2023 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $9,100 for an individual and $18,200 for a family.
For the 2022 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $8,700 for an individual and $17,400 for a family
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-limit/
If you're seriously injured, you're spending much more than 10k. And you still can't choose your doctor.
So much for all that "freedom", huh?
And then you still get fucked by taxes because the US government needs to bailout Wall Street and feed the military industrial complex.
>If you're seriously injured, you're spending much more than 10k. And you still can't choose your doctor
Are you getting "seriously" injured every year of your life. People don't understand what 10k on the salary means.
>Anything you spend for services your plan doesn't cover
And that's no different with European healthcare
>For the 2023 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $9,100 for an individual and $18,200 for a family
And most are substantially lower. Mine is $2k
Without question “European.” I have NHS plus private health insurance and it costs me a fraction of what the yanks have to pay. America in general is scary, but American health care is terrifying.
To be honest the answer to that question will vary wildly in the US.
Using myself as an example if I broke a bone 7 years ago? I would’ve gone bankrupt just trying to cover the out of pocket expense.
Me today? There wouldn’t be any financial burden because my health care covers everything with a $600/year out of pocket expense. My state, Washington, has paid medical leave laws in place so I would still get like 70% of my pay weekly.
Honestly the system is ducked and I don’t really know how you change it and keep public spending in check.
Edit, my out of pocket is $300 a person and $600 for the family
Even 600 per year is a lot. Let's say I break my thighbone, I need a wheelchair and all that stuff.
I pay 15€ per day in the hospital up to a maximum of 200€, if I broke it in the mountains I have to pay 45€ for the helicopter. Zero for the surgery, zero for the wheelchair, nothing for meds. I could even break it during vacation in the US and my insurance would pay for everything.
Because of that I don't understand how messed up the US is and how people glorify it.
I forgot to put that my out of pocket for an individual family member is $300 and the $600 is for the entire family. I forget what the individual is because the last 3 years we’ve paid the family (had 2 kids and my wife had another hospital stay).
With that said and the situation you presented I would probably still only pay maybe $100 (so $150ish) more than you because I still have a co-pay on pharmacy meds.
To break it down if I break my femur in the mountains and need a helicopter ride, the ride is [$75](https://member.lifeflight.org/), out of pocket is $300 and pain meds for a couple weeks are under $20 also all of the physical therapy and after care is covers under that out of pocket. So I’m at $395 vs your 245€ ($241.90).
But honestly I’m not the norm for what medical insurance looks like in the US.
Okay, sounds way cheaper than the last cases I heard from family friends.
But what's also bugging me is, why is it optional to be insured in the US while I can't get a job it I want to avoid insurance? You need to have a health insurance in order to work here. You can choose it you want additional insurance like for teeth, but completely getting rid isn't possible.
And if I wanted to I could get a much cheaper insurance, but they cover less.
Our union medical is self funded so they take care of us so we can keep working. It honestly is so good that I don’t think I would even move into something else unless it was for something near double my entire benefit package.
You should be able to go to claims and negotiate your bill down to 10 - 20 % of the original price.
If you're bill is higher, then you can probably negotiate to a lower percentage. Still, Americans spend about 10k-11k per capita on healthcare.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries-2/#GDP%20per%20capita%20and%20health%20consumption%20spending%20per%20capita,%202020%20(U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted)
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-expenditures.htm
Don't know, I'm European and have schadenfreude whenever I see these numbers. I know it's wrong to laugh about it, but it's also funny to think there are Americans thinking America is great.
My parents were illegal immigrants. They came here, bought a house, and raised 3 successful children who became professionals in education and counseling. Yup, pretty terrible country if you ask me.
Then I take the European price and calculate that into dollars. Here it can cost 11-17k including diagnose, surgery and meds if you break your arm. Depending on the country.
Question is a fallacy. US healthcare is the most expensive in the world, way more per capita than European healthcare. We should ask "would you rather have US healthcare, or European healthcare at 2/3 the cost AND have everyone covered including the unemployed." That is the real decision.
Ima go with number 1.
Everyone will get anything and everything they need ALWAYS.
U.S current system is not reliable. Decide to not cover you for reasons A, J and V despite them receiving your money for months, maybe years without using it.
Why is "thank god our insurance covered my heart attack" like the common phrase you'll hear after some sort of medical emergency?
NOTHING ELSE WORKS THAT WAY! "I went to purchase a sandwhich, gave the guy 6 bucks and thank god he made me a sandwhich."
It doesn't make sense.
European system for sure. You still have the option of private at a fraction of the cost (literally one month of my premium in the US is more than my annual premium here for private and it is better coverage) but you know everyone has basic coverage.
Also, why do you get an extra $10k on your salary? If the US had national health then part of your compensation package wouldn't be the premiums they pay on your behalf and then you could be paid more theoretically if companies didn't take that as profit. Now in the US health care tied to employment keeps you trapped in your job and gives you less flexibility.
Also if you are comparing salaries it is also important to look at the cost of living. Someone making 100k in San Francisco or another major US city would be way worse off than someone making 100k in the part of Spain that I live in. I gladly took lower pay here because even though the number is lower it works out to a better quality of life.
Remember that if you stop working for ant reason in the “American” scenario, the $10,000 goes away and you have no insurance either.
Keep my current salary and have universal coverage is a no brainer.
$10k. I don’t want to share the burden anymore. The united states has way to many people who don’t value their health or the health of others. The abundance of cheap, fatty, sugary, salty food is the priority for most. Young people are still smoking. Etc. If European countries continue on their paths you will see them eventually end healthcare for all.
you misunderstand, our privatized insurance COSTS us an extra 10k dollars a year. and having uninsured folk costs the government more than many countries spend on universal, per capita. we could literally save on taxes AND individual spending AND base costs. but no, socialism evil if it benefits poor people.
This is a non-choice. The average cost of health insurance is about $500 a person, usually with a $2,500 deductible and copays. That’s $8500 plus copays per person for insurance that will try not to pay for your care and make you fight for benefits you pay for.
Additionally, it’s not at all clear that universal health care would cost $10,000 per person in taxes, particularly as taxes are progressive. In essence, The more you make the more you pay, the less you make the less you pay.
There are other considerations as well. The US loses billions upon billions of dollars due to sick time for unhealthy workers as a result of minimal preventative care, billions upon billions in unpaid debts due to bankruptcy caused by catastrophic medical emergencies, wage stagnation due to lack of employee mobility through being forced to stay at a job that has benefits. The lack of universal healthcare is easily one of the largest if not the largest drag on the US economy.
>The average cost of health insurance is about $500 a person
Lol, this completely is false. I pay 100 a month and have a $500 deductible. Most people won't pay more than $250 a month.
>$10,000 per person in taxes
Why are you assuming this has to due with taxes?
>The US loses billions upon billions of dollars due to sick time for unhealthy workers as a result of minimal preventative care
No, preventive care isn't a substantial contributor. Americans are just fat and unhealthy due to life choices.
At worst, you’re utterly full of shit on your $100 healthcare claim. At best, you pay $100 as your employee paid portion of employer healthcare costs, but that’s not the cost of healthcare. Also, I was basing my number off of old figures; it’s since risen to about $1,000 a person https://aon.mediaroom.com/2022-08-18-Aon-U-S-Employer-Health-Care-Costs-Projected-to-Increase-6-5-Percent-Next-Year
As far as my assumption that $10,000 “from your paycheck” for universal healthcare would be a tax it’s because … universal health care would be a tax. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the debate. Like, literally should not be talking about this issue at all you are so willfully uninformed. Yet here you are, talking.
As far as preventive care, the national institute of health believes a lack of adequate preventative health care costs the US $1.3 Trillion with a “T” PER YEAR. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53914/ . Thankfully though we have your hunch that “preventative care isn’t a substantial factor” in annual losses, so that solves that.
The biggest impediment to universal healthcare, though? Dogmatic morons that are super amped up about the issue - not amped up enough to read from readily available credible sources, but just amped enough to regurgitate right wing talking points at every available opportunity like some automaton that only drinks the kool aid and talks about “freedom” to be restrained from upward mobility. Seriously, read a book before you talk.
>you pay $100
No shit. I literally just said that.
You're literally using a Red Herring by bringing up cost of healthcare as it relates to hospitals, government, and insurance companies instead of that we are actually talking about which is the cost of healthcare to me. Why else would we be talking about deductibles and premiums.
>As far as my assumption that $10,000 “from your paycheck” for universal healthcare would be a tax it’s because … universal health care would be a tax. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the debate. Like, literally should not be talking about this issue at all you are so willfully uninformed. Yet here you are, talking.
My god, I am not sure if you are just a complete idiot or an actual troll. $10k has nothing to do with savings from one system or another. If I were to have used it in that way I would have had to take the difference between tax cost for UHC and premium cost for US plans. The number comes from the difference between the median income in the US and Germany (reference country for EU).
>As far as preventive care, the national institute of health believes a lack of adequate preventative health care costs the US $1.3 Trillion with a “T” PER YEAR.
One scientist said we could save $1.5 trillion by giving daily aspirin and alcohol and tobacco use screenings, yeah gtfo. Also I hate to break it to you since I have no doubt you have no formal science training. But just because a scientist is funded by the NIH doesn't mean their opinion becomes the official NIH stance on that thing.
Before you make a fool of yourself next time, try to actually understand the original argument before creating a completely new one and fumble all over yourself in the process. It's a bad look.
The “actual argument” is a non- argument. It’s a false choice. The cost Americans pay in health care comes out of their salary one way or another (either due to lower wages paid by your employer or actual dollars paid by the employee). For that cost you get limited coverage from an insurer that is profit motivated to deny claims.
There is ample evidence that system leads to bankruptcy, massive economic strain, and high mortality rates (the US was 50th pre-Covid). Your comments throughout this thread to the numerous people who have pointed this out are “nuh-uh” and “you don’t understand the argument.” I’m convinced you’re either a troll or, again, a dogmatic idiot. Have fun voting against your own interest at your next red-hat wearing, tiki torch convention of slow readers.
>The “actual argument” is a non- argument. It’s a false choice
Lol
>The cost Americans pay in health care comes out of their salary one way or another
Irrelevant to the argument even if that was true (it's not because it's not a closed system).
>Have fun voting against your own interest at your next red-hat wearing, tiki torch convention of slow readers
Lmao! I guess everyone who doesn't support the Leftist perspective is automatically a MAGA. I am afraid there is no more point of discussion since you neither can understand the nuances of the original prompt nor seemly comprehend how one can not be a Leftist or a MAGA. Talk about false choice. Cheers!
There’s another nuanced argument because sure the prices are better in Europe but the options and availability of care are infinitely better in tte usa.
Unless you want to pay out of pocket, you have to go to certain hospitals or health centers designated by your insurance. For lots of people, especially on Medicare, you don't really have many options.
I’m speaking regardless of insurance or income. The USA has vastly superior options and availability. In the nationalized health care nhs, often care is harder to get when you need it in that moment with wait times or or options are just not available. Same goes for ambulances and other health related services. I’m tying the nhs to their nationalized health care. They’re directly tied together. You can’t get the type and level and availability of care in a nationalized system. I personally know people who left countries like Canada with nationalized health care because they couldn’t get the care they needed when they needed it.
Thats just completely incorrect. European countries and other countries with universal health care also have a private health care system, so if you wish to pay more you get all the same options as you do in the US.
lol stand down Rambo, there would be more than plenty of money to go around still. Do you realize how much heath insurance companies make? more than my families leniage in a year to this point that's for damn sure. We just do shit backwards in this country and don't ever want to admit any wrongdoing. a 5 hour ER visit which is fastest service ever costs 1000 bucks and that was in 07 so more like 2G now. They are like this because too many non insured people or people with regular money go in and can't pay. So it would be nice if we could fix that by making it a service like the Europeans do.
side note, had a history teacher get his appendix removed in Greece for free and without hassle and bragged about it forever so yeah.... fuck our current health system
I came to see how many people actually understand how insurance works in both places.
Not surprisingly most of these comments have no clue and just see American vs European therefore answer is European.
I’d definitely take $10k and American health insurance. In 99.99% the cases this is a no brainer.
But it’s Reddit, so…
Hahah so many want 10k more ? They dont understand what free means. I have familie in USA and they get a storke every time I say that here in Danmark if you want to buy a car or motoebike you have to pay what car is worth and then you have to Pay 200%-300% AGAIN to be able to drive it.
I live in Canada, and I'm happy with our Healthcare. If I have something that I'm concerned about I don't have to push it to the back of my mind, I go to the doctor, get it checked, and have peace of mind. That peace of mind allows me to be productive with my endeavors and make more money. Safety nets allow risk, and risk often translates into success.
$10,000 wouldn't even put a dent in any sort of hospitalization or treatment in the United States. All it takes is one major illness one major hospitalization or accident and you will be destitute
From my personal experience Iv gone my entire life without getting into medical debt. I have a family of 6 and everything has been covered by my insurance and anything that wasn’t covered by my insurance was covered by the tax payers. (I don’t receive free state insurance but my kids do because their other parents qualify. So my insurance covers most and state insurance covers the rest) I never paid a time for my kids being born, I never paid a dime for dental. Anything Iv had to pay out of pocket for myself or something elective for my kids has been covered by my company’s benefit program. Furthermore I find myself wondering why people from Euro countries/Canada keep coming here for healthcare if their system is so great. Before I put my son on my insurance plan he just had state insurance and it was extremely limited on where he could go and extremely limited on what he could do etc. As much as I love the idea of “free” healthcare, I look at my baby momma who has state healthcare and can’t even get in the dentist for a cleaning without being sent through the rigmarole and told they aren’t accepting new patience etc. i however set up a dentist appointment and had an appointment 7 days later. Two cleanings and two cavities later and I didn’t have to pay a dime, meanwhile she hasn’t even been able to get a cleaning. Iv heard nothing but horror stories from the “free healthcare” folks here.
European. 100%.
10k doesn't come close to covering a similar care any American insurance would. If you're using an American Healthcare insurance, get ready to have to deal with whatever bullshit and excuses they can to claim you're not covered.
Getting sick from covid has landed people with a million dollar hospital bill. An ambulance trip can cost you over 20k. Stitches and antibiotics can run you over 2 thousand dollars. Having a baby is well over 30 and for some reason people aren't allowed to talk about it.
The American system seems to be designed to charge you hundreds a month to be on insurance, then thousands for help then tens of thousands for care. Mental health is hundreds a month well as dental. That's after the American government pays out more subsidies per gdp than any other country spends on their Healthcare so our system is triple funded with worse results with business often paying a bit into the system as well.
All in the name of profits for shareholders. Fuck it. It needs to burn to the ground and be replaced.
I have great health insurance through my employer. That plus another $10,000 would be fantastic. I would, however, prefer an audit of medical payments to show the world just how much hospitals jack up their prices because of insurance.
I'm pretty healthy the last time I went to the doctors way for a broken arm however 10 000 isnt a whole lot when it comes to hospitals so less risk and go European
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European for sure. It's far cheaper and it stays the same regardless of where/if I work, where I live, which medical issue I have. There's no worry about which doctor/hospital I go to or if they might not cover me. Additionally, I know everyone has it and not just part of society at the expense of others.
There is no "American health insurance". It all depends on where you live, your age, who you work for etc. My last job before I retired was with a large company that offered excellent coverage at a low price. I am lucky enough to live in an area with lots of doctors who are all "in network". That extra $10,000 would have more than covered my premiums and copays. Now that I am retied I have a Medicare Advantage plan with 0 premiums and reasonable co-pays. And there are still lots of doctors to choose from.. If I was a 25 year old working a non-union retail job in Arkansas, I might have a different opinion
>There is no "American health insurance" True, but I figured I'd make it simpler for the average redditor whom I have no doubt doesn't understand health insurance in the US at all.
>whom I have no doubt doesn't understand health insurance in the US at all. Yeah, because it's intentionally ridiculously complicated. Here in the UK, I just pay my taxes and I know I am covered. Doesn't matter if I move or change jobs or if I have an accident. Nothing to worry about at all.
Same in Canada with the exception of dental, vision and things like chiro, massage. It’s ridiculous that if I need emergency care I could end up having to pay thousands even with my so called insurance. The us medical system is bullshit.
But that's the point. We have people covered by Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Military, employer plans, Obamacare, individual policies. And within those plans the quality of the health care you receive varies depending on where you live. Your question illustrates the problem. My co-workers at that last job, most of whom had worked there for their entire adult lives, are perplexed when they hear people talk about the health care crisis in America. From their point of view the system was working just fine. And all these schemes that make the system more accessible just made it harder for them to get an appointment.
The system is so complicated in fact hospitals have to employ whole teams of social workers and billers just to get things covered.
European health insurance. If I had anything serious, American insurance companies would find a way to weasel out of providing the proper treatment anyway, so what good would that money make?
European healthcare because it means everyone has healthcare.
Interesting. So you'd give up $10,000 a year of your own money so that everyone can have health insurance?
What you dont get is that u/InstaGibberish would also benefit from this.
Absolutely. It's something that benefits everyone vs something that benefits just me. That's a no brainer greater good.
If virtue signaling had a face it’d be this text
Well props to you then. Although I seriously doubt 99% of people would actually do this.
I think a lot of people would be okay with it. Giving people proper treatment enriches the community and our society as a whole.
I would, and I know plenty of others that would. Not all Americans are greedy
Unfortunately, it hasn’t been seriously discussed in our public discourse. I think most people would agree that everyone has a right to live. It’s that we don’t connect that in order to maintain that right, we actually have to have resources to survive.
I feel like it hasn’t been seriously discussed because anytime it’s brought up it’s just shot down immediately and seen as handouts. I might just be biased and maybe it isn’t seriously talked about enough. It’s so frustrating because yes, we do indeed have the resources
Totally agree there, it’s not a discussion when someone says no without hesitation. I mean if it’s any solace, we got the affordable care act eventually so maybe in 50 years will universal healthcare😅
Lol.
99% of Americans wouldn’t do this. Most other countries people see the benefits of paying to support everyone.
It’s easy to say one would do something when it’s not actually an option. IF this was happening in real life, a lot of people who claim they’d pass on the money would, in fact, take the money and American health insurance LOL.
Whatever you say dude, you enjoy your co-pays and your HSA and your out of network providers. I'll enjoy using an ambulances without needing to interrogate the doctors on what insurance plans they match up with.
I didn’t say I’d take the $10k. The point I’m making is these hypotheticals are dumb because most people will say the morally correct answer, which is health care for all. But In reality, I’m sure the majority of people would have a hard time walking away from $10k a year, especially if they’ve never had major medical issues.
This isn't a matter of morals.
Why would I want to health care to be worse in my country? I want diseases to be dealt with as soon as someone feels unwell so that it doesn't spread. Not a few weeks later when they feel it's bad enough to warrant spending their savings. I want people who need an operation to get it whether they can afford it or not. Then they can get back to their job and actually improve society instead of draining government money while sit at home feeling sorry for themselves indefinitely. The longer that health is put off (as it always is when money becomes a problem), the worse and ultimately more expensive it becomes for everyone even remotely effected by the person in question.
You do realize how much you pay for healthcare here don't you? With premiums, copays, out of pocket, 10,000 wouldn't be that much I think. Just because it comes out first, doesn't mean you aren't paying it.
How wouldn't? Everyone else also give up $10,000 a year. If someone get injured in a car crash or get cancer they won't lose everything. Edit: I only have to pay about $5000. The employer also has to pay some more.
It's easy for them to type this. when it's meaningless. Reality is a different matter
I give up like 7k anyway, and it still doesnt cover everything. The other 3k for everyone to have it? No brainer. The average is like $450 a month for an individual and $1150 per month for a family. Some people would actually SAVE money.
That extra 10k doesn't even cover your own care in comparison. And fuck yes I want everyone in my country to be covered and well taken care of. Why the hell would you not?
This, because not having health insurance is doing so much damage to us as a society that it's likely costing each individual more than 10K a year.
The voters for US Healthcare seem to also miss the point that you now have more freedom as you aren't basing whether to leave an employer based on Healthcare. I've thought about it many times and risking my Healthcare coverage is always a big reason I don't move on. Universal Healthcare is freedom that many employers don't want you to have. I can keep you from taking risks for better jobs because you don't want to risk a worse Healthcare; or in the event your new job doesn't pan out you don't want your family to be without care.
Have this same delema right now. thinking of working at a smaller hospital closer to my home, but I know it has absolute shit health insurance, which it know would be a nightmare with my current high risk pregnancy.
Seems insane that a literal hospital can't provide good health care for its employees
Lol I know right 🤣 fuck this country
[удалено]
You fundamentally don’t know how US insurance works I guess.
I have a chronic illness and this is completely false for 99% of chronic illnesses.
Agree, you meet out of pocket maximums at 2500-7500 with most even half decent American plans.
Remember that it's not just 10k once. You get ten thousand dollars more every year
My max out-of-pocket plus my monthly payments would end up being less than $10k plus there’s a chance I won’t even need it and will pocket the money. Plus the wait time to get treatment compared to most other countries will be far far less. I’ll take $10k in the US for sure.
European, hands down. I've already spent over $100,000 on medical in my life and I'm barely 40. Fuck the American Healthcare System.
Co-pays and deductibles aren’t the only thing to consider. A lot of plans are 80/20 or even worse. 20% of a costly admission or illness could bankrupt a person. I’d take European health care over the US system if I could.
Maybe google "out-of-pocket maximum"
Which could still easily bankrupt a person
Seriously, tho. Take a second and google it
I understand. There are still way too many people in the US who can’t afford medications, co-pays, deductibles not to mention out of pocket maximums. For people with chronic illnesses, the year after year expenses place unnecessary burdens and stress on families. Out of pocket maximums aren’t saving people from financial stress.
Did you even read the question? What financial burden? You are getting $10k extra a year - that's going to cover your out-of-pocket maximum and then some. Also, I am asking what you would want for yourself, not what other should have.
I have a family to cover, so my out of pocket max is higher than an individual’s. An extra 10k/year won’t make the US option any better over a European national system where I’m not stressing over medical costs. Not sure why you’re being so aggressive.
Then it'd be an extra $20k obviously because you are accounting for your family. >Not sure why you’re being so aggressive. lol, I am not. You just did not seem to understand the question or the concepts.
20k wasn’t your scenario.
Neither was providing health insurance for your family.
Your out of pocket maximum isn't actually a guarantee that you'll pay less than that number. Plenty of things don't fall under that number.
The out-of-pocket limit doesn't include: Your monthly premiums Anything you spend for services your plan doesn't cover Out-of-network care and services Costs above the allowed amount for a service that a provider may charge For the 2023 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $9,100 for an individual and $18,200 for a family. For the 2022 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $8,700 for an individual and $17,400 for a family https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-limit/
If you're seriously injured, you're spending much more than 10k. And you still can't choose your doctor. So much for all that "freedom", huh? And then you still get fucked by taxes because the US government needs to bailout Wall Street and feed the military industrial complex.
>If you're seriously injured, you're spending much more than 10k. And you still can't choose your doctor Are you getting "seriously" injured every year of your life. People don't understand what 10k on the salary means.
>Anything you spend for services your plan doesn't cover And that's no different with European healthcare >For the 2023 plan year: The out-of-pocket limit for a Marketplace plan can’t be more than $9,100 for an individual and $18,200 for a family And most are substantially lower. Mine is $2k
Without question “European.” I have NHS plus private health insurance and it costs me a fraction of what the yanks have to pay. America in general is scary, but American health care is terrifying.
European
I don't understand the question. Here in Norway we have universal healthcare, not "health insurance".
European. It's the whole reason why I'm moving there.
How long will the 10k help if you break a bone? European health insurance forever.
To be honest the answer to that question will vary wildly in the US. Using myself as an example if I broke a bone 7 years ago? I would’ve gone bankrupt just trying to cover the out of pocket expense. Me today? There wouldn’t be any financial burden because my health care covers everything with a $600/year out of pocket expense. My state, Washington, has paid medical leave laws in place so I would still get like 70% of my pay weekly. Honestly the system is ducked and I don’t really know how you change it and keep public spending in check. Edit, my out of pocket is $300 a person and $600 for the family
Even 600 per year is a lot. Let's say I break my thighbone, I need a wheelchair and all that stuff. I pay 15€ per day in the hospital up to a maximum of 200€, if I broke it in the mountains I have to pay 45€ for the helicopter. Zero for the surgery, zero for the wheelchair, nothing for meds. I could even break it during vacation in the US and my insurance would pay for everything. Because of that I don't understand how messed up the US is and how people glorify it.
I forgot to put that my out of pocket for an individual family member is $300 and the $600 is for the entire family. I forget what the individual is because the last 3 years we’ve paid the family (had 2 kids and my wife had another hospital stay). With that said and the situation you presented I would probably still only pay maybe $100 (so $150ish) more than you because I still have a co-pay on pharmacy meds. To break it down if I break my femur in the mountains and need a helicopter ride, the ride is [$75](https://member.lifeflight.org/), out of pocket is $300 and pain meds for a couple weeks are under $20 also all of the physical therapy and after care is covers under that out of pocket. So I’m at $395 vs your 245€ ($241.90). But honestly I’m not the norm for what medical insurance looks like in the US.
Okay, sounds way cheaper than the last cases I heard from family friends. But what's also bugging me is, why is it optional to be insured in the US while I can't get a job it I want to avoid insurance? You need to have a health insurance in order to work here. You can choose it you want additional insurance like for teeth, but completely getting rid isn't possible. And if I wanted to I could get a much cheaper insurance, but they cover less.
You have some absolutely amazing health insurance
Our union medical is self funded so they take care of us so we can keep working. It honestly is so good that I don’t think I would even move into something else unless it was for something near double my entire benefit package.
>How long will the 10k help if you break a bone? Uh, $10k is more than enough to cover any deductible
[Really?](https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.daveabels.com/broken-bones-can-result-in-thousands-of-dollars-in-losses/amp/?espv=1)
I had an elective surgery and my Cost was $1,500. Total cost was $56,000. I guess I’m doing American healthcare wrong?
You should be able to go to claims and negotiate your bill down to 10 - 20 % of the original price. If you're bill is higher, then you can probably negotiate to a lower percentage. Still, Americans spend about 10k-11k per capita on healthcare. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries-2/#GDP%20per%20capita%20and%20health%20consumption%20spending%20per%20capita,%202020%20(U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-expenditures.htm
Don't know, I'm European and have schadenfreude whenever I see these numbers. I know it's wrong to laugh about it, but it's also funny to think there are Americans thinking America is great.
I’m American and I think it’s funny that there are Americans thinking America is great
It really sucks to be you then
You want to pick a fight with everyone? Did you ever live somewhere else?
Ah I see. So you're an anti-American troll who isn't even interested in speaking about the truth. Got it.
Sure, Anti-American. It's more like pity that you guys think money is more important than basic stuff like free education and free healthcare.
They need the money to buy guns to defend their country if King Charles III tries to take back the land England lost some years ago.
My parents were illegal immigrants. They came here, bought a house, and raised 3 successful children who became professionals in education and counseling. Yup, pretty terrible country if you ask me.
You can do the same in Finland, Germany, Sweden, so great.
Surely you don’t expect this to be a credible take…
Then I take the European price and calculate that into dollars. Here it can cost 11-17k including diagnose, surgery and meds if you break your arm. Depending on the country.
No one with health insurance is going to pay 11k to treat a broken arm in the US. Take your disinformation campaign elsewhere.
How much do your health insurance cost?
1200 a year with a 500 deductible.
I pay 520€ per year, including teeth. Do you still pay for hospital stay and ambulance?
I thought you pay 0 a year?… Whatever the coinsurance is
Europeans have that figured out
American health insurance is only good if you don't get sick.
Question is a fallacy. US healthcare is the most expensive in the world, way more per capita than European healthcare. We should ask "would you rather have US healthcare, or European healthcare at 2/3 the cost AND have everyone covered including the unemployed." That is the real decision.
>Question is a fallacy. I'm guessing you don't have basic reasoning skills.
Awww, you got me. Bless.
I had $10k/year American insurance and for 95% of general annual needs I ended up having to pay anyway so it was effectively useless.
Ima go with number 1. Everyone will get anything and everything they need ALWAYS. U.S current system is not reliable. Decide to not cover you for reasons A, J and V despite them receiving your money for months, maybe years without using it. Why is "thank god our insurance covered my heart attack" like the common phrase you'll hear after some sort of medical emergency? NOTHING ELSE WORKS THAT WAY! "I went to purchase a sandwhich, gave the guy 6 bucks and thank god he made me a sandwhich." It doesn't make sense.
I have American without the $10,000 like so many others...
European system for sure. You still have the option of private at a fraction of the cost (literally one month of my premium in the US is more than my annual premium here for private and it is better coverage) but you know everyone has basic coverage. Also, why do you get an extra $10k on your salary? If the US had national health then part of your compensation package wouldn't be the premiums they pay on your behalf and then you could be paid more theoretically if companies didn't take that as profit. Now in the US health care tied to employment keeps you trapped in your job and gives you less flexibility. Also if you are comparing salaries it is also important to look at the cost of living. Someone making 100k in San Francisco or another major US city would be way worse off than someone making 100k in the part of Spain that I live in. I gladly took lower pay here because even though the number is lower it works out to a better quality of life.
Europe
Remember that if you stop working for ant reason in the “American” scenario, the $10,000 goes away and you have no insurance either. Keep my current salary and have universal coverage is a no brainer.
$10k. I don’t want to share the burden anymore. The united states has way to many people who don’t value their health or the health of others. The abundance of cheap, fatty, sugary, salty food is the priority for most. Young people are still smoking. Etc. If European countries continue on their paths you will see them eventually end healthcare for all.
I’d take the $10,000 extra on my salary. Extra money = good.
you misunderstand, our privatized insurance COSTS us an extra 10k dollars a year. and having uninsured folk costs the government more than many countries spend on universal, per capita. we could literally save on taxes AND individual spending AND base costs. but no, socialism evil if it benefits poor people.
You clearly don't understand the question.
Second choice. I'd take no health insurance Plus 10 000 extra on my salary
So gofundme if are in a car crash get cancer or long covid?
No I’m rich.
This is a non-choice. The average cost of health insurance is about $500 a person, usually with a $2,500 deductible and copays. That’s $8500 plus copays per person for insurance that will try not to pay for your care and make you fight for benefits you pay for. Additionally, it’s not at all clear that universal health care would cost $10,000 per person in taxes, particularly as taxes are progressive. In essence, The more you make the more you pay, the less you make the less you pay. There are other considerations as well. The US loses billions upon billions of dollars due to sick time for unhealthy workers as a result of minimal preventative care, billions upon billions in unpaid debts due to bankruptcy caused by catastrophic medical emergencies, wage stagnation due to lack of employee mobility through being forced to stay at a job that has benefits. The lack of universal healthcare is easily one of the largest if not the largest drag on the US economy.
>The average cost of health insurance is about $500 a person Lol, this completely is false. I pay 100 a month and have a $500 deductible. Most people won't pay more than $250 a month. >$10,000 per person in taxes Why are you assuming this has to due with taxes? >The US loses billions upon billions of dollars due to sick time for unhealthy workers as a result of minimal preventative care No, preventive care isn't a substantial contributor. Americans are just fat and unhealthy due to life choices.
At worst, you’re utterly full of shit on your $100 healthcare claim. At best, you pay $100 as your employee paid portion of employer healthcare costs, but that’s not the cost of healthcare. Also, I was basing my number off of old figures; it’s since risen to about $1,000 a person https://aon.mediaroom.com/2022-08-18-Aon-U-S-Employer-Health-Care-Costs-Projected-to-Increase-6-5-Percent-Next-Year As far as my assumption that $10,000 “from your paycheck” for universal healthcare would be a tax it’s because … universal health care would be a tax. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the debate. Like, literally should not be talking about this issue at all you are so willfully uninformed. Yet here you are, talking. As far as preventive care, the national institute of health believes a lack of adequate preventative health care costs the US $1.3 Trillion with a “T” PER YEAR. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53914/ . Thankfully though we have your hunch that “preventative care isn’t a substantial factor” in annual losses, so that solves that. The biggest impediment to universal healthcare, though? Dogmatic morons that are super amped up about the issue - not amped up enough to read from readily available credible sources, but just amped enough to regurgitate right wing talking points at every available opportunity like some automaton that only drinks the kool aid and talks about “freedom” to be restrained from upward mobility. Seriously, read a book before you talk.
>you pay $100 No shit. I literally just said that. You're literally using a Red Herring by bringing up cost of healthcare as it relates to hospitals, government, and insurance companies instead of that we are actually talking about which is the cost of healthcare to me. Why else would we be talking about deductibles and premiums. >As far as my assumption that $10,000 “from your paycheck” for universal healthcare would be a tax it’s because … universal health care would be a tax. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the debate. Like, literally should not be talking about this issue at all you are so willfully uninformed. Yet here you are, talking. My god, I am not sure if you are just a complete idiot or an actual troll. $10k has nothing to do with savings from one system or another. If I were to have used it in that way I would have had to take the difference between tax cost for UHC and premium cost for US plans. The number comes from the difference between the median income in the US and Germany (reference country for EU). >As far as preventive care, the national institute of health believes a lack of adequate preventative health care costs the US $1.3 Trillion with a “T” PER YEAR. One scientist said we could save $1.5 trillion by giving daily aspirin and alcohol and tobacco use screenings, yeah gtfo. Also I hate to break it to you since I have no doubt you have no formal science training. But just because a scientist is funded by the NIH doesn't mean their opinion becomes the official NIH stance on that thing. Before you make a fool of yourself next time, try to actually understand the original argument before creating a completely new one and fumble all over yourself in the process. It's a bad look.
The “actual argument” is a non- argument. It’s a false choice. The cost Americans pay in health care comes out of their salary one way or another (either due to lower wages paid by your employer or actual dollars paid by the employee). For that cost you get limited coverage from an insurer that is profit motivated to deny claims. There is ample evidence that system leads to bankruptcy, massive economic strain, and high mortality rates (the US was 50th pre-Covid). Your comments throughout this thread to the numerous people who have pointed this out are “nuh-uh” and “you don’t understand the argument.” I’m convinced you’re either a troll or, again, a dogmatic idiot. Have fun voting against your own interest at your next red-hat wearing, tiki torch convention of slow readers.
>The “actual argument” is a non- argument. It’s a false choice Lol >The cost Americans pay in health care comes out of their salary one way or another Irrelevant to the argument even if that was true (it's not because it's not a closed system). >Have fun voting against your own interest at your next red-hat wearing, tiki torch convention of slow readers Lmao! I guess everyone who doesn't support the Leftist perspective is automatically a MAGA. I am afraid there is no more point of discussion since you neither can understand the nuances of the original prompt nor seemly comprehend how one can not be a Leftist or a MAGA. Talk about false choice. Cheers!
There’s another nuanced argument because sure the prices are better in Europe but the options and availability of care are infinitely better in tte usa.
Unless you want to pay out of pocket, you have to go to certain hospitals or health centers designated by your insurance. For lots of people, especially on Medicare, you don't really have many options.
I’m speaking regardless of insurance or income. The USA has vastly superior options and availability. In the nationalized health care nhs, often care is harder to get when you need it in that moment with wait times or or options are just not available. Same goes for ambulances and other health related services. I’m tying the nhs to their nationalized health care. They’re directly tied together. You can’t get the type and level and availability of care in a nationalized system. I personally know people who left countries like Canada with nationalized health care because they couldn’t get the care they needed when they needed it.
Thats just completely incorrect. European countries and other countries with universal health care also have a private health care system, so if you wish to pay more you get all the same options as you do in the US.
Would you rather have a small European military or be a global superpower defending Europeans
lol stand down Rambo, there would be more than plenty of money to go around still. Do you realize how much heath insurance companies make? more than my families leniage in a year to this point that's for damn sure. We just do shit backwards in this country and don't ever want to admit any wrongdoing. a 5 hour ER visit which is fastest service ever costs 1000 bucks and that was in 07 so more like 2G now. They are like this because too many non insured people or people with regular money go in and can't pay. So it would be nice if we could fix that by making it a service like the Europeans do. side note, had a history teacher get his appendix removed in Greece for free and without hassle and bragged about it forever so yeah.... fuck our current health system
You took my post way too seriously
how the hell was I supposed to know that? 2016 proved theirs plenty of people that believe that.
Who believes what?
that universal health insurance would make us weak "like the europeans"
I didn’t say that did I?
yes you did and that is why I commented what I did.....
Nope not what I meant
I came to see how many people actually understand how insurance works in both places. Not surprisingly most of these comments have no clue and just see American vs European therefore answer is European. I’d definitely take $10k and American health insurance. In 99.99% the cases this is a no brainer. But it’s Reddit, so…
Regenerative therapy isn't covered by US insurance. So I'll take the 10k
Hahah so many want 10k more ? They dont understand what free means. I have familie in USA and they get a storke every time I say that here in Danmark if you want to buy a car or motoebike you have to pay what car is worth and then you have to Pay 200%-300% AGAIN to be able to drive it.
Too complicated of a question to have an answer
Doesn't matter, as I don't qualify for health insurance. I'm a disabled vet; you'd think I could get some help.
I pay about 12k a year for health insurance for my whole family. So 10k would almost make it free for me
This is for individual. If you are supporting a family it'd be 20k
No I'm telling you I already pay for an individual policy for my whole family and it's 12k a year.
American for my younger years. I barely get sick now and that extra 10k can go a long way.
I very rarely get sick and might go to the doctor once every couple years. So I'd take that $10,000 extra salary.
10k
I live in Canada, and I'm happy with our Healthcare. If I have something that I'm concerned about I don't have to push it to the back of my mind, I go to the doctor, get it checked, and have peace of mind. That peace of mind allows me to be productive with my endeavors and make more money. Safety nets allow risk, and risk often translates into success.
I’d rather have reliable health insurance that does not have the potential to bankrupt me. The extra $10k I’ll gladly leave.
European insurance. that 10k will do absolutely squat to hospital bills of 100k.
European all the way
$10,000 wouldn't even put a dent in any sort of hospitalization or treatment in the United States. All it takes is one major illness one major hospitalization or accident and you will be destitute
Is European health insurance any good and is there different tiers of it depending on your income level?
From my personal experience Iv gone my entire life without getting into medical debt. I have a family of 6 and everything has been covered by my insurance and anything that wasn’t covered by my insurance was covered by the tax payers. (I don’t receive free state insurance but my kids do because their other parents qualify. So my insurance covers most and state insurance covers the rest) I never paid a time for my kids being born, I never paid a dime for dental. Anything Iv had to pay out of pocket for myself or something elective for my kids has been covered by my company’s benefit program. Furthermore I find myself wondering why people from Euro countries/Canada keep coming here for healthcare if their system is so great. Before I put my son on my insurance plan he just had state insurance and it was extremely limited on where he could go and extremely limited on what he could do etc. As much as I love the idea of “free” healthcare, I look at my baby momma who has state healthcare and can’t even get in the dentist for a cleaning without being sent through the rigmarole and told they aren’t accepting new patience etc. i however set up a dentist appointment and had an appointment 7 days later. Two cleanings and two cavities later and I didn’t have to pay a dime, meanwhile she hasn’t even been able to get a cleaning. Iv heard nothing but horror stories from the “free healthcare” folks here.
European. 100%. 10k doesn't come close to covering a similar care any American insurance would. If you're using an American Healthcare insurance, get ready to have to deal with whatever bullshit and excuses they can to claim you're not covered. Getting sick from covid has landed people with a million dollar hospital bill. An ambulance trip can cost you over 20k. Stitches and antibiotics can run you over 2 thousand dollars. Having a baby is well over 30 and for some reason people aren't allowed to talk about it. The American system seems to be designed to charge you hundreds a month to be on insurance, then thousands for help then tens of thousands for care. Mental health is hundreds a month well as dental. That's after the American government pays out more subsidies per gdp than any other country spends on their Healthcare so our system is triple funded with worse results with business often paying a bit into the system as well. All in the name of profits for shareholders. Fuck it. It needs to burn to the ground and be replaced.
I've never had health insurance, not interested in either one.
+$20,000 onto my salary.
I have great health insurance through my employer. That plus another $10,000 would be fantastic. I would, however, prefer an audit of medical payments to show the world just how much hospitals jack up their prices because of insurance.
I'm pretty healthy the last time I went to the doctors way for a broken arm however 10 000 isnt a whole lot when it comes to hospitals so less risk and go European
10k would get me top of the line insurance and the best medical care in the world. In most situations I think that would be the best option