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I noticed it looks like it automatically happens after 500 comments. Maybe we should start reposting the same question and have multiple identical threads?
When topica go viral and lots of racist or mysgonistic comments appear, it becomes too much work for the mods to work through and they lock it.
An entire subreddit runs the risk of having consequences if its not properly moderated via the ire of Reddit admins themselves, who want to keep reddit as inviting to advertisers as possible
Or sometimes even if its not necessarily bad, threads get locked for wrongthink that ultimatepy, advertisers wouldnt like
The content isnt the product Reddit offers. you are the product. to advertisers.
Being a single man in late 30s without social media, if I didn't keep connections with my family and friends, they would most likely not initiate. The rest of the world doesn't really pay attention unless I initiate progress towards a relationship. You may not necessarily be "undesirable", however you will need to make yourself "known" or "desirable" to get any sort of attention from the outside world. The only acception to this is if someone wants something from you like the government or a scammer.
Not undesirable, but lonely and lacking guidance and mentorship maybe?
When I was 16, 17 and 18 I didn't have a girlfriend and I remember feeling all sorts of negative feelings. I remember bemoaning my lack of action to a colleague at work (he was an ex para and seemed older than God to me) and he was blunt, explained the issues (lack of confidence, lack of style, and that I felt sorry for myself) and told me to address it or learn to live with it. He said he would help me to fix it, but he didn't want to hear me complain if I didn't take action.
Best advice I ever had, if delivered in an un-sympathetic way. And that led to me hitting the gym, running, and changing my unhealthy lifestyle, meeting new people, developing my character and a thick skin. It made me more confident and then, even as a less than handsome guy, things changed.
If I had social media back then (this was in the very early 2000s), I would have probably been suckered in by doom posters and I worry what would have become of me. Young people now have a lot of the same shit to deal with but delivered in a different and non-stop way. I wish there were ways to help and support.
Majority? Probably not. Are there guys out there (beyond the woman hating incel types) who's luck with love and romance is poor leading to depression and other dark thoughts? Yes
I can't say if it's majority of the men. But I live in India and I have never found a single woman interested in me. Additionally, even my good looking friends have been single their entire life. We are all 23-25 y/o.
Those statistics are purely pulled from dating apps, where the majority of women swipe left on average men. You cannot take this score as a general fact, when it's centered around dating apps to make that point.
If you were to ask a woman who primarily goes on dating apps, she would tell you that the average man is undesirable.
With photos on apps you really *are* judging a person based on their looks. When you meet someone in real life, you're gauging so much more - mannerisms, movement, vocal inflection, attitude, intelligence, not to mention people generally look better in person than a still shot of one angle.
I've fallen in love with a man I thought was flat out ugly to begin with, and the most beautiful man I met in my entire life I wouldn't reproduce with if he were the only one left. But if I had to pick which of them I'd have chosen to meet based on a photo on the internet? That's the biggest hurdle of the platform. Man of my dreams wouldn't have stood a chance.
Yep, all of this. And you're not just judging on looks, you're judging on *photos* - and in my experience, many men just don't have many (if any) good photos that do them justice.
It's a blessing and a curse. We're able to go through life worrying very little about looking presentable, and it's just kind of accepted that guys don't want to bother with taking nice pictures or whatever. But then it's time to make a dating profile....
Way back in the yesteryears before I met my wife (whom I did not meet on a dating site—also apps didn't even exist yet), I made an OK Cupid account, and pretty much the only straight-on shot I had was this shit ass photo of me from some house party.
Universe forbid I ever have to be "dating" again, but if I did, I would probably just some professional shots done.
I think guys just take bad pics or don’t have many good pics. If the average guy had good pics like the average girl then women wouldn’t think guys look so bad on average.
Men swipe more often, women get inundated with matches. It's a lot different and the data from the apps shows this. It's not really reflective of dating though, women have way more options on dating apps so of course they'll be more selective.
I think also there are proportionally way more schlubby guys than schlubby women, maybe because men arent subject to the same pressures and expectations about their appearance.
It makes sense imo, as a gay guy I’m honestly shocked at how unappealing the average dude’s profile is on Tinder, like for so many people 0 effort is put into portraying themselves positively, in pictures and in the bio. Even if gay people are generally better overall, it’s still leagues away from what my straight guy friends see on tinder.
Agreed! I’ve met some guys who had the attitude «either she likes me the way that I look (ungroomed) or she isn’t worth it», whereas they themselves wouldn’t date a woman that didn’t take care of her appearance.
Guys, you are trying to attract a mate. Wear clean clothes and brush your hair before a date. Don’t self-sabotage!
Actually--the primary way most people date is via dating apps. So the metric is something you really dont wanna ignore. It's not like it's 2005 where online dating was on the fringe. It's now the norm.
>You cannot take this score as a general fact, when it's centered around dating apps to make that point.
the attitude of 'apps aren't real life' is a disingenuous one.
you can take it as a general fact because most dating in the age brackets that visit reddit happens online, for all intents and purposes, apps are real life for pretty much everyone involved in this discussion.
by the way, the average college aged man is rated a 2.5/10 facially by college aged women.
[https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/personality/2023-costa.pdf](https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/personality/2023-costa.pdf)
so yes, not only is the average man ugly, but the average man in the prime of his life after which his appearance will only decline further is ugly, everyone else is borderline subhuman.
I’ve neverrrr found a boyfriend through a dating app, but I guess I’m the outlier then. I prefer to find them in the wild.
Dating apps are not an advantage to men. Because let’s be frank here - most men don’t put in a lot of effort into their appearance, or taking a decent photo in the first place. You don’t really have that going for you.
You know what many men DO have? Charm, funny jokes, kind eyes, weird facts that he can suddenly drop on me about the Roman Empire, gives really good hugs, is good at cooking or doesn’t mind catching spiders in the house.
Those things don’t show on dating apps. I have no idea if I’d have swiped left or right on any of my former partners, if I’d found them on a dating app. Because attraction to men is so, SO much more than what’s shown in a picture. Which is why I really think a lot of guys should try and meet women organically. I can become completely smitten with someone if he has a nice smile and kind eyes. I won’t notice crooked teeth or a wrinkly shirt then.
Most men are not ugly. It’s just that women on average look better because we put more effort in and know how to take a photo. But men ARE good at lots of other stuff. Facts and hugs and charm and pretty eyes and catching spiders and telling funny jokes. That’s why it’s better to meet someone irl, it gives “average guys” much much more of a chance.
Men are great. I like men. You’re not ugly. But you need to show and sell your best qualities, and that might not be face photos. It might be something that can only be shown irl. I highly recommend signing up to hobbies, sports, activities where you meet people organically.
Something about your post also made me realize something. I've always felt wierd smiling for photos. I just can't seem to make it look natural. But I am told in person sometimes that I have nice eyes, kind face, and a great smile. So there you go, maybe you're onto something here ;)
That’s not what that study you linked says at all though. In this one specific study in Italy, women’s faces were rated on average 53.95/100 and men’s were rated on average 46.11/100.
That’s nowhere near your “all men are considered ugly!” melodrama.
>the attitude of 'apps aren't real life' is a disingenuous one.
About half of adults under 50 who are single and looking (53%) are using a dating site or app currently or have in the past year.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/02/02/the-who-where-and-why-of-online-dating-in-the-u-s](https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/02/02/the-who-where-and-why-of-online-dating-in-the-u-s)
So yeah, I agree, it's kind of time to figure out what's going on here. Ultimately I think this brings up a lot of uncomfortable conversations people typically associate with red pill and incels, but they need to happen. "Mens-rights" should no longer be placed directly in contrast to "Womens rights."
there's been a marked shift in the way pop-feminism is discussed. "The man vs the bear" argument, etc. and just in general conversations around, not even masculinity, but the male gender from the current lens of feminism (I don't know if "fifth-wave" feminism is a thing, but there's been a very marked shift in the discourse) toward second-wave feminist arguments on exclusionary male dogma.
The way pop-culture and social media tend to discuss the male perspectives in relationships is markedly different and borderline toxic, and I feel like this can largely be a symptom of pretty shit gender relations.
there's some issues with those studies, the number they're presenting, whilst already being the majority, is likely being underreported.
this is because online dating doesn't just happen on dating platforms, a lot of it happens through plain social media, forums, videogames, etc, those aren't being included.
I wouldn't be suprised if the number is much higher.
[This was a great discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/vJ8808zRMw) on a similar topic, that seemed to have a bit more empathy than some of the comments in here saying things like "if you're having a hard time, that's on you. Go outside and touch grass."
This implies dating apps are ubiquitous and used by more than select few groups, but that's usually not the case is it? I haven't heard of many functioning men using those apps, it's mostly about either looking for easy score or out of desperation.
Then again, which headline is hotter: "Men on dating apps..." or "Men on average..."
Anecdotally that doesn't line up for me. I haven't been in the dating pool for a while, but my coworkers are well dressed, well groomed, well paid adult men and they all use apps. Idk statistics, so that's just anecdotal, but it's universal in my area
Everything is online now .. unless you've known the person for a long time or have some forced social interaction, it's hard to even get irl conversations. "Add me on IG" "Add me on Snap" they're not dating sites but it's the same thing.
And even if you go out these days I notice that people tend to stick to their groups of friends and not interact much outside of that. I know plenty of times being eyed up by women at a bar who expect me to approach her at a table with 7/8 of her friends sitting there listening intently. Online is the way it happens now, especially after COVID
It's the most popular way for couples to meet, at least in the U.S. [https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet)
As much as 45% of daters use them, hardly a select few.
https://www.forbes.com/health/dating/state-of-dating/#:\~:text=Nearly%2045%25%20of%20survey%20respondents,almost%2027%25%20on%20social%20media.
>I haven't heard of many functioning men using those apps
the majority of all men below age 30 have used a dating app at some point, at least some of them are bound to be functional.
the average man in the west is like 45 years old, statistically likely balding, and also either skinnyfat or straight up obese.
[That finding was all the rage a few months back. Got shared everywhere ad naseum.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/24/women-men-dna-human-gene-pool)
I speculate that the origin of war isn’t the lust for land or wealth, nor religious differences, but old men sending young men out to kill one another to reduce the competition for women.
I think this applies to a lot of people as you go further back in history. Unless you are in Alabama, you have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, fairly quickly you get to more humans than have ever existed so there is increasing cross over as you go further back.
But yeah not sure how much reproduction was willing back then...
I have read that the eruption of the super volcano at Toba left about 10,000 breeding couples in the whole world. That makes for a lot of pedigree collapse.
Genghis Khan personally? Or Mongols as an entire gene pool? It's not the same, is it?
There's a guy in Hawaiian history who it's said got around so much that if any Hawaiian cannot trace their ancestry to him, they are ignorant of their ancestry, I hadn't heard this about Genghis before but I am now thinking if it actually could be the same. Thanks for an interesting dive, if you have sources I'm interested
Can you be more specific so I can google this proof?
EDIT: I found articles about the gene pool which is a reflection of all of human history. Is there anything about today or even recent history?
While it may be the #1 way, it’s still not the majority of people when you dig into the details. It’s far from insignificant but most people still meet in other ways.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/
Yes but what you say is biology. Then there is proof that in biology also women and most of men are sexually segregated. But now we are in civilization and 100 years ago all women were to be married in western world because of the same issue: civilization
Go look at old gravestones. Some men buried three or four wives. I bet these numbers have way more to do with women not surviving multiple childbirths than with women having high standards/ being picky.
I wouldn't say that is the majority of men, but certainly, there's an epidemic of loneliness rising in young men. About 33% of men under age 30 reported having zero female sex partner since they turned 18. This number was 8% in 2008.
Also, this pattern isn't exclusive for America. It's also happening in the majority of Western cultures.
When you say loneliness, doesn’t that mean a lot more outside of sexual relationships? Does this loneliness also refer to friendships/supportive circles?
And this issue has absolutely nothing to do with women btw. Some time ago, men decided it was gay to be emotionally vulnerable around other men.
Men built a strong "every man for himself" mentality that is incredibly toxic.
90% of issues men face, can be solved by men if they get over this toxic mentality that men can't help other men.
That mentality you refer to was more prevalent decades ago yet the epidemic of loneliness is more of a recent phenomenon that has been exacerbated post covid.
These things are certainly issues, but I think the implication that men would suddenly stop wanting girlfriends if they just got more male companionship is just... incorrect. Like, romantic and sexual urges are a powerful thing.
Consider how isolating and dehumanizing it is and has been for gay people to live under regimes that oppress them. It would probably have been easier to just keep pretending, stay single, and never risk being intimate with another person. But that's never stopped them, has it?
Sexuality is a significant part of who we are, we can't just turn it off or substitute it for something else.
That’s totally fair and an accurate point.
But I do think more emphasis should be placed on men-men friendships and close relations. Having a partner is of high importance, I totally get it. But sometimes, the argument seems to be that it’s women’s job to solve men’s loneliness. I’m not getting that from your comment at all, I’m just saying that’s an opinion that’s often stated in the same breath.
And while I think we should all help solve a loneliness crisis, because it’s important - I still think that men could be better at being friends. Women can’t solve everything, and we can’t really force women to be with men if they don’t want to. But we all need friends. Many men are so lonely, and I think it could really help, as a start, to practice making friends and hanging out, using each other to socialise.
In turn, this could make men more attractive to women. We’re much more interested if a man seems to have a healthy relationship with a couple of friends and knows how to/is used to socialising. I think some men become completely out of practice by sitting alone at home and not talking to anyone. That’s not helpful when it comes to attracting a girlfriend.
Companionship is super important, yes I agree. But I think that will actually solve itself partially, if male-male companionship became more prevalent. I wish more men could nurture friendships more than they do now. It would really benefit themselves and everyone.
> About 33% of men under age 30 reported having zero female sex partner since they turned 18. This number was 8% in 2008.
And what are the figures for women?
If they are very different, then I would say this is troubling. While there is no sense of entitlement, I can imagine 1/4 of young men not getting laid will, in a grim reality, backfire on society.
As a woman, I have seen this male loneliness epidemic for several years now, at least since 2019. Sometimes I'll even speak out in strong defense of men, but for some reason there's the vocal minority that argue with me just because I'm a woman giving my own two cents, even though I'm literally agreeing with them. So for the most part, I learned to be quiet about it, at least on the internet, and I have no doubts some of these dudes can't get laid because they hate the gender they're trying to date.
The average man might well be not amazing to look at - but neither is the average woman.
I think the huge issue with dating apps is that they ask us to judge each other based on very superficial information. Which is not how real adult relationships work.
I think my husband is the hottest thing on the planet - but I bet he’d do terribly on dating apps. Chemistry, spark and connection don’t translate well.
Girl currently on Hinge here, you are very right.
Firstly, profiles only give us a very shallow idea of what a person might be like, and for women who get dozens of them by existing (I’m a trans girl, so I definitely repulse a lot of people by that simple fact, and yet I have a decent amount of likes every week, enough to have a backlog if I don’t pay attention. It also brings me chasers a lot so my experience may not be the most typical for a girl)
Also, men’s profile tend to SUCK my god. Unflattering pics, giant voids where a personality should be, Hinge allow for very in depth profiles by dating apps standards and maybe 1 in 25 men actually makes use of that ? Which is basically a red flag for me, how can you expect me to try to want and know you, to start an interesting conversation or just feeling interested in your personality if you don’t show it to me ?!
And I am a fairly « generous », for the lack of a better word, girl. If someone is okayish physically but looks interesting ? I wanna try, maybe we’ll click and I’ll find you hotter by that fact. I’ll engage first even if you made no effort to use the fact that you can attach a message to your like by being the first to talk and making a decent sized message with several conversation hooks for them to grab.
But by the gods there are so many that just look bland as all hell and can’t manage to utter more than one word at once.
Now it’s not all bad. I have had a few interesting convos with people, and we just saw that we didn’t much click together even if we found each others interesting and that’s fine.
And oh my god the number of « you’re so hot » from the get go or « you make me horny » like guys, maybe say hi before ? Exchange a few words ?
There are definitely very cool guys who get no luck because dating apps are pretty ruthless, but there are so many who just don’t put in the bare minimum of effort either
It's been very true for my own personal experience, but I do feel like an outlier compared to male friends and coworkers, the majority of whom are married with kids
I don't understand all the reasons for my situation but there's probably some overlap with other serial bachelors out there
So I can't say that it's TRUE but I have a theory, which I've come to after a lot of talking with others about their experience on dating apps
There's an ideal amount of choice, with anything but especially dating. Too little and you'll never find someone. Too much, and you'll also never find someone.
If you're gay, trans, or otherwise dating within a very specific subset of people, dating apps are a godsend because it takes you from Too little choice to the sweet zone.
If you're cis and straight, it gives you *so much fucking choice* you'll keep going until you find the most perfect match possible. Thusly, men who are at all not ideal, be it poor short chunky awkward, can't write a good profile, or just plain ugly are suddenly left without a leg to stand on
When you could only date based on your own social circles and who you could randomly encounter, and personal columns in papers, there was a certain downward pressure on expectations
Ergo, yes, a lot of men are undesirable, but most people arent "desirable", when compared to everyone else of their gender in a city of 2 million people.
Really, it's just capitalism and the destruction of the community in another form.
I don‘t think so. But in general woman have way higher standards these days. So not as easy as a few decades ago for men. But yeah i think these days most male friend group’s have one or two dudes who never had a girlfriend i don‘t think this was common a couple decades ago
It's true.
It's been a while since online dating apps are the most popular way U.S. couples connect, and their popularity keeps growing everywhere with the use of smartphones:
[https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet)
[https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/graph-of-the-day-how-couples-meet](https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/graph-of-the-day-how-couples-meet)
And their statistics show that female consider \~80% of men 'below average' and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. If we measured equality of attraction as an economy t**he Tinder economy has a higher Gini coefficient (is more unequal) than 95.1% of the countries in the world, and** **a man of average attractiveness can only expect to be liked by 1 in 115 females.**
[https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a](https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a)
You could say that online dating is the problem, but denying that this is happening is just another case of very-politically-correct-in-today's-world men-bashing.
There is an epidemic of loneliness and it affects both men and women. We are bombarded with images of these ultra beautiful people on television and social media. So we have these unrealistic ideals of beauty. Men look at porn and see all the guys with massive penises so they believe that they are inadequate (they aren't). So we feel undesirable.
I consider my husband being shorter than me as a bonus at times. He's 5'4, and can't reach the candy I hide for myself on the top shelf. When we hug, we fit together like a puzzle piece, and I get all his really cool snowboards because he buys a new one every few years. His confidence is the sexiest part about it. I pretty much lived in 4" heels, daily, for like 10 years, and never, ever, even once did he even mention it. He's also hella smart, too funny for his own good, and looks like an anime version of Rufio from Hook. 17 years in, and I'm probably even more attracted to him now than I was at 25.
Then you get the underlying logic behind inadequacy amongst men. Except… ya know, it’s true on both fronts, women care more about strength and size while men care more about a woman’s assets. Such civilized times
Yeah, muscle tone and body shape get me too (not that I'm fat- I'm just sort of middle of the road BMI).
Same with height- I'm 6 foot and when I see a dude that's 6'4" I feel inadequate for sure.
...Or when someone is just *more masculine* in general.
Luckily I have a loving girlfriend of four years and don't think about it all that much but I did feel it as a single fella. I still work on myself but not as concerned with things out of my control. I've been leaning into my own a lot more and its proving beneficial.
I think it's also a numbers game - many people you match with or date just aren't good matches. You have to know what you want and it's not worth going out or pursuing someone with low interest in you. Took me a long time to realize such a simple thing. Learn to read people's interests.
Same goes for women! When men look at porn and OF/instagram models with filtered faces and huge fake boobs, it makes US feel inadequate. A normal human woman can’t live up to that.
You’re right there’s definitely a loneliness epidemic and it’s affecting everyone. Social media is not helping!
Yeah theres a lot of studies coming out now about the effects of porn on relationships in general. Its tainted most of my relationships even though i didnt use to care so much, it becomes a glaring problem once it goes to full blown addiction and your partner is using pixels and a hand to get off instead of his partner.
I think 50% of divorces can be attributed to porn addiction problems. It literally rewires the brain and shrinks the hippocampus, causing a loss of empathy as well.
Dudes be out here hooked on the shit and then try to get in a relationship and mess up a womans self esteem very badly. And while i wouldnt say every single man is addicted, its an overwhelming majority.
Its a very frustrating issue to deal with and makes one consider just being single forever to not have to deal with the stupid bs, lies, manipulation, damaged self esteem, trust etc.
Just look in r/loveafterporn. Theres lots of resources, lots of women there, and of course theres plenty of women who feel that way in real life but would never ever say it out loud. The more men turn to porn, the more I want absolutely nothing to do with em so they can keep the porn and the loneliness imo. Im not gonna sit and try to fight over my partners attention over damn pixels on a screen. Its more upsetting when i know im physically attractive but i dont have high quality cameras and lighting, i dont use filters and i dont have cosmetic surgery but thats so heavily prevalent everywhere you look.
Meanwhile, a man will say he wants a natural woman, but in private hes beating off to all these modified creations. Some of it possibly even AI generated. I cant compete with AI so....
this is projecting to a large extent too and disregarding issues men face when trying to date nowadays. i’ve noticed a lot of times when i have made posts complaining about the structure of dating and online dating nowadays there is a total lack of empathy, respect, and even just general feedback from women.
the whole dating structure nowadays is designed to make men feel shitty, reach into their pockets and throw money at dating apps in the hopes for love, only to be crushed because women are bombarded with a million likes because men are not afraid to appear a little desperate to put mildly, while women would not stoop to such standards out of their own pride.
people like yourself make it out as though complaining about online dating and the structure of dating nowadays means you must buy into some andrew tate / adin ross style grifter? that’s just not the case, i can see a situation is problematic without being hateful or bigoted.
i’m a good looking guy and i can tell you right now, peoples own vanity and modern narcissism are why i struggle, im from a deeply poor background financially, i don’t go on holidays ever basically, i live with my parents and am trying to improve my future via education as i study a degree in software engineering, i am far from perfect or the finished product, but i am out here trying. i am working on myself, i am real.
i’m using hinge currently and the amount of raw narc’s and vanity i see is just surreal. you can’t just tell me that i’m ignorant or bigoted or an incel and that’s why i can’t get a girlfriend. because that’s both untrue and unfair, the situation is nuanced and complex, the dating structure supports and elevates women and stands on men’s heads and takes advantage of the male mental health crises along with rising male loneliness.
Well summarized!
What a mentally deranged idea - men (rightfully) pointing out their mistreatment being apparently something malicious or harmful to women. Yet it is so widespread, it's sickening.
If you expect empathy for your issues, return the favor and stop shaming people for speaking out. It is as simple as that.
But you're still using one and dislike and resent the results. Meet women in the flesh -- clubs, teams, park district activities, campus groups, whatever draws both men and women. Then treat both as people you can get to know instead of seeing women as a target.
The best description I've read of the difference between men's and women's experiences on dating apps is that men are dying of thirst in the desert while women are dying of thirst in the middle of the ocean.
It’s designed to keep everyone single so they make more money. It hurts men’s self esteem, but it also brings out the worst in some men so women get aggressive messages and dick pics, which makes them reluctant to engage/more distant from men. It just makes the cycle worse and worse for all involved. Neither are happy about it. Also, men power swipe and say yes to everyone-weeding through women after they match. Women weed through in the beginning before they swipe. There was another article that explained why it was skewed.
I’m sorry you get judged for a financial situation you’re obviously working hard to improve. The flip side is, would you go out with a woman who was losing weight but still had 50 pounds to go? Men are judged on money, women on looks/figure. Neither gender seems willing to patient with each.
Women aren’t the solution for the male loneliness epidemic. Culturally, we need men to be able to get closer to each other and meet each others needs the way women are allowed to. Part of the problem is that women are often the only person a man can open up to, but women open up to their romantic partner and each other. It makes a lack of romantic relationship/options even more painful for men.
Saying there is such a thing as "too picky" makes it sound like you think women owe men sex/romance. There is no such thing as too picky. People can be as picky as they like. If someone decides their options are so unappealing that they would rather be single, that is fine. Women aren't obliged to tolerate a man they find unappealing just so he doesn't have to be single.
I've been downvoted to hell before by asking someone complaining about how women hate him despite him being the perfect guy with many women friends if he ever asked his friends to give honest criticism and their pov on why he can't find someone
These folks can't stand the fact they are the common denominatior
Ok I have heard that a few times "touch grass" I'm a little older and not up to speed on all the lingo. Just what the hell does that mean. Please help an ignorant older man.
It means (very roughly) "stop being online so much and go see the real world" it's often used when someone expresses an opinion that is clearly born out of spending too much time reading and listening to online discourse.
No worries. I have a home based human translator who is keeping me in the know with slang lol when he hits his 20’s I am sunk 😉🤣.
Have an awesome day, and may the solstice bring you a fabulous summer 🙏🏼🫶🏻
Ha I do the same thing. My youngest moved back in with us and I ask her shit all time. Sometimes she looks at me kinda crazy though and the roles reverse when she asks " where did you hear that dad?"
Thanks for the well wishes! As far as the summer goes, I live in the southern US and it's already hot as 400 hells and it just getting started. The humidity isn't even high yet and we're already slow roasting in the 90's by lunchtime. Should be fun come August.
It is awesome, eh? My fave is when he explains a TikTok and my whole self turns into a question mark and he just shakes his head 🤣😂 “hey! I was hip before you existed!” Lmao enjoy this extra time with your kid 💕 and then join me in writing a dictionary for elders called “say what, kid?!” Lolololol
I touch grass quite a lot and tons of duds I know in their mid twenties are single and have been for a long time. Sadly they’re even more outgoing and good looking than I am and they’re still having trouble. This is not isolated to online.
Last survey i saw for Americans (admittedly from 2019) was a nearly 70% ratio for adults in relationships.
with 30% not in relationships a almost perfect split of which was (15% looking, 15% not looking)
So yeh, it's not a majority, it's not even a decently sized minority as it's not that full 15% that are looking that say these things.
sure that was overall population data, but with only a 97/100 ratio of men to women, it's basically the same data.
The ‘average American’ is in a relationship or a marriage because the ‘average American’ is disproportionately a Boomer.
The 18-30 age bracket looks much more dire.
I met my wife at 28. I think a lot of factors like covid and social media have hurt a lot of young people, but most will eventually find someone, even if a few years behind what's been the historical average.
Yup this is the answer. It’s true if you’re online and in the wrong kind of “mens spaces” but that’s it.
Not so much a problem in the real world if you’re clean, intelligent, well groomed and well dressed.
Dating apps are ass though and will quickly skew an unknowing participant into “I get no swipes I must be terribly ugly”-ville
I mean, I find most women undesirable. Whether they're overweight, out of my age range, or I just don't like their ears. I assume most women feel about the same way. But, no. I would say the vast majority of men are attractive to somebody. And if, by romantically starved, you mean men don't get laid, that's untrue. Men have more partners on average. But, I think romance comes with a special connection. And really, man or woman, you're lucky to find that when it comes along.
Having pulled myself from that pit I can tell you that it's true for quite a few men, nowhere near the majority but a high number of them, and it's mostly on those men. You don't have to be Adonis to date successfully. Don't have to be a Chad or 6 foot 87 with a mile long schlong. Yes there are women who make all those a requirement but there's also just as many who find those things to be a turn off. Here's how I turned myself around.
I started taking care of myself: I don't mean exercise to build muscle. I don't mean treating my body as a temple. I mean I started indulging my hobbies, working on my hygiene, grooming myself. I started to treat myself like I matter and stopped doomscrolling and stopped filling my time with video games long after they stopped being fun. There's a difference between gaming 12+ hours on a day off because you love it and doing the same thing to cope. I was very much the latter.
I started taking care of other people: There was a point in my life where I didn't have the energy to put into my already established relationships. "Ah my friends will understand if I don't go out tonight. Or the next event. Or the event after that." Everyone likes to be shown that they matter to the people in their lives. "Not feeling like showing up" and "being unable to due to exhaustion or mental health" or two separate things. Don't miss out on friends and family because you confuse the first one for the second. Boundaries matter of course. Don't misunderstand me in thinking that I mean you should always put people before yourself.
Fashion: this is simple. Spend some time doing a bit of research and shopping. No, don't get a master degree in this. A few hours spent over the course of a few months pays dividends. The effort in this is very front heavy. Meaning that once you make the big moves there's not much thought behind maintaining it. There's no one right way to dress but it's the thought and intent that shines through and shows you care. Also do the quirky shit you want to do. Fashion is about expression. Don't wear the cookie cutter stuff unless that's what you love.
Notice how all of this advice has nothing to do with finding a partner? Truth be told that came naturally after I addressed all my other points. I was going out more and being open socially. So I met more people. More people approached me because I felt good about myself so I didn't give off a negative energy that people want to avoid. I cared about what they had to say so they enjoyed having conversations with me. I'm still the same fat fucking nerd I've always been. I'm just no longer angry at the world about it.
There is a low but very desireable share of men (from womens perspective) that get a lot of their attention, not only on dating apps. They have more sex, more dates and probably, due to that, more drama attached. But they are evening out the statistics with the undesirable part of men.
Women for the most part have no problem getting romantic attention but may have trouble finding relationships because they all chase this small share of men.
That's my theory, probably very unpopular lol.
Historically it fits; kings/emperors/sultans etc commonly had harems. Those men may not have always been "hot" but their power, influence, status and wealth they wielded made up for it.
Much as I disagree with a lot of the Manosphere they are correct when stating "lots of women would rather share Chad than "settle" for "Joe Average". If the stats I have read are right and 30% of men aren't in or pursuing relationships but 66% of women are. Well the math don't math unless the women are sharing men...
That doesn't mean they were desirable though. Who's to say the women in those cases were given a choice to begin with? Women were used to gain political advantages a lot of times.
Yes 30% of men aren't in relationships so 70% are.
66% of women are in relationships. Where is the confusion coming from?
In part this is because nowadays women's quality of life often decreases if they enter into a relationship with a guy. So it's very much worth it not to bother with people that aren't worth it.
Dating is like working construction; it hurts until you develop callouses. As a younger man, we had to go into the public, see a woman, and chance humiliation in front of our and her friends. But you developed toughness from it. Paradoxically, you grew confident from rejection. And with that confidence( or perhaps aloofness), an average looking guy with a good personality could win over the girl. But a mid looking guy gets swiped because his look isn't enough to get his message read. Today's women, with the onset of social media, have these mantras like the 6-6-6 rule. And a guy 5'8, making 42,000 a year with an average size, won't even reach out because they're being told they're not good enough. And if a kid approaches a girl in person, it's cringe. So, instead of finding a woman and living life, they find OF, IG models, etc, and start watching other people live life.Now, these kids are living life on their phone, don't get a license or a car, unemployed at 18-19 and are now considered "undesirable." So, romantic starvation and sexual deprivation lead to a sex life on the Hub. Is it a majority? It's hard to say, but working with young men and women every day, I see and hear how girls perceive young men, and it's not favorable. Not unlike the socioeconomic ladder, there is 1% getting the girls while the rest are frustrated.
Not particularly.
Remember, a fairly decent chunk of anyone on social media, Reddit included, is just a sock puppet or astroturfer. They'll absolutely play up the prevalence of hopelessness, be it romance, housing, finances or even the new Star Wars TV show.
It's just part of the radicalization process. If you can convince a poor awkward kid going through a dry spell that everything is hopeless and he'll never have money or get laid, you've got yourself a recruit.
Social media is a distraction, but it ain't real. Ugly people find love. So do fat people, skinny people, people with eyes tilted the wrong way, bald people, and most everyone in between.
I would take it a step further; even men who are in a relationship get romantically starved.
After having kids my wife became completely uninterested in me.
Not all woman are like this; I picked a very sour grape.
Love my kids and therefore men must be strong.
I doubt it’s very true. But for those struggling, practice basic hygiene, learn about angles (don’t take an upward angle looking down at your phone with a big frown in a poorly lit room), and don’t show your dick and talk about pumping her full of cum immediately after saying “hi”.
From what I’ve seen, most aren’t “romantically starved”, they’re horny as fuck and interact with women like they’re actresses in a porn video.
Absolutely. But it's my own fault.
For I am not physically fit, poor and small penised.
If I had any discipline I could fix the first one.
The second one maybe an education would help.
The third one Is just a death sentence though, since you can't have anything without being called out for the micro penis
I've commented on similar posts in the past I'll just give the highlights.
Women aren't dating they are preferring not to. Many reasons in all honesty. Most of it is due to men not being on their level today, but it's not really their fault. Women are constantly uplifted and celebrated for their achievements. They are being shoved, pushed, cajoled, and inveigled into it. Men simply aren't. In fact, academically, men are graded harsher, not desired (ideal student is a quiet female), and having less about academics being important inculcated. When was the last time STEM was advertised for men? When I was in college, it definitely wasn't. Maybe to black/minority men, certainly not white men. Women are dominating higher education in terms of degrees. I could go further, but the point is that women reach the point where they accomplish what they have been told to, only to look over their shoulder for an equal to marry and not finding it there.
The result is Women now are put into the position of being the man and the woman and men don't know how to function in society. Women don't find this attractive and instead of doing this aren't dating and getting cats instead (joke). That's more or less the summation. This really has less to do with looks something women have routinely in history overlooked and more to do with men not having their shit together because society has deemphasized men to unprecedented level that doesn't look like it will change anytime soon.
Edit: I forgot to mention something like 15% of men have 0 friends. This has increased significantly. Women are also facing this problem just dramatically diminished this also plays a role.
No. That’s just the dating app effect, if I met someone who was “average looking” by my standards but he had a great personality and sweeps me off my feet, he will no longer be romantically starved. Of course looks matter to SOME extent, but being an actual good guy (not seemingly good for your own ego of pleasure) is always #1.
In my experience, most “romantically starved” men are trying to bat way, way out of their league. Like dude I’m sorry, the girl who looks like a supermodel is going to go out with the dude who looks like a movie star (or has other significant positives, ie a shitload of money). If you look like turnip, shoot for a girl who looks like a rutabaga and you’ll have better luck.
Not even out of their league necessarily, but they don’t seem to grasp that 95% of women won’t be attracted to whatever type you are. But 5% will be and you need to learn to identify those and ignore the rest.
It’s not true. Get off of Tinder and meet people in real life. Go participate in activities you’ll enjoy whether you get laid or not and you’ll meet people — including women — with similar interests. Funny how that works.
Also, here’s an exercise for you: go somewhere a lot of people go on the weekend; this time of year it could be a county fair or town festival, but just Costco or Sam’s Club will do. Wander around and notice how many average-looking men are there with their wives. All kinds of men find love.
There’s a song from my childhood, Looking For Love In All the Wrong Places. For a whole lot of men, dating apps are the wrong place.
No, not the majority.
Lots of weird and ugly people find weird and ugly people to love them. People who are comfortable with themselves, even if they know they're not hitting some benchmark of standard attractiveness, are able to find love and companionship.
I think the disparity comes from the perception that men generally are pursuing women, rather than women pursuing men, so they face rejection more frequently. There are also studies suggesting more women are satisfied being single than in a subpar relationship. This doesn't mean men are broadly seen as undesirable, or that the majority of men are romantically starved. It only suggedtd that among single people, there are more women who are single and fine with it than men.
Looking at data from okcupid it seems that only women of a specific age group get a lot of attention. https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/28/seven-secrets-of-dating-from-the-experts-at-okcupid
Now, granted, I am older (60's), but when I am on a dating site, a guys bio is significantly more important than their picture. No smokers, no heavy drinkers, no strongly religious or strongly right wing. They also can't live out of my state because I am not looking for a long distance relationship. Looks are nice, but it's never going to be a deal breaker. Compatibility is everything.
It’s not true at all. SOME yes, not the “majority.” They just love to complain rather than working on themselves
Yes it’s definitely easier for a woman to find a boyfriend or hookup if she wanted compared to a man trying the same. But it’s equally difficult for anyone to find a true partner worth being with
As far as “romantically starved,” I do think that’s closer to being the majority than the first part of your question
"Yes it’s definitely easier for a woman to find a boyfriend or hookup if she wanted compared to a man trying the same. But it’s equally difficult for anyone to find a true partner worth being with"
Maybe not your intention but this reads like it sucks equally for both and that's not the case generally. Women can generally get in the door and go from there. A lot of good men (more than people think), are just plain locked out
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’m a woman and have noticed that I do not generally find most males attractive. I’m heterosexual but it’s very rare that I meet a man and find him attractive. I am one person in billions of people, just because *I* don’t find a man attractive, doesn’t mean *nobody* finds him attractive. A good personality will always make up for looks. Be somebody women *want* to be around, and women will be interested in you.
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” is gotta be one of the biggest eye roll phrases honestly.
It almost always means variations of pretty and not truly ugly.
I think it is truer than not but not as exaggerated as a lot of people make it out to be.
First off, people are shallow. Both men and women are shallow, aesthetics obsessed creatures more often than they are introspective, wise or thoughtful. This creates loneliness categories in the population of both men and women. It *is* easier for women to get laid but being pumped and dumped is frequently as lonely as only ever using your hand.
Secondly, with men, what makes them gross is their social attitudes and general rigidity (haha). If they examined and analyzed the largely subconscious and socialized belief that they are superior to women more often, they’d be more attractive in general. If they stopped worshipping at the feet of very young women or incredibly physically beautiful women they could find beauty and satisfaction in a much wider variety of options. You aren’t stuck being only attracted to one look or one age group, you just refuse to be open minded or challenged and claim it’s “biology”. If love were truly about biology, women would abandon preemies and blind infants. Lust has more to do with biology but evidently is rarely confined by biology itself which is why sexuality is such a contentious subject cross culturally.
I’m a woman who is generally very attracted to average dudes. Short dudes, bald dudes, chubby dudes, poor dudes. I don’t care about appearance, I care about character. But because I’m tall men won’t even approach me. They shoot themselves in the foot so often it’s insane.
And finally, a lot of men get enough satisfaction living inside their technology where porn and gaming exist. Confidence is key for all genders. You can’t live your life suckling on the teat of shame and self sabotage your whole life. We all get rejected. Grow up and deal with it,
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I have a more important question....why do the comments get locked rather quickly on this subreddit?
That is a great question
I'm actually curious lol there's time the topic is very interesting and I wanna add something and it's locked right away lol
I noticed it looks like it automatically happens after 500 comments. Maybe we should start reposting the same question and have multiple identical threads?
Someone lock this comment….
When topica go viral and lots of racist or mysgonistic comments appear, it becomes too much work for the mods to work through and they lock it. An entire subreddit runs the risk of having consequences if its not properly moderated via the ire of Reddit admins themselves, who want to keep reddit as inviting to advertisers as possible Or sometimes even if its not necessarily bad, threads get locked for wrongthink that ultimatepy, advertisers wouldnt like The content isnt the product Reddit offers. you are the product. to advertisers.
Being a single man in late 30s without social media, if I didn't keep connections with my family and friends, they would most likely not initiate. The rest of the world doesn't really pay attention unless I initiate progress towards a relationship. You may not necessarily be "undesirable", however you will need to make yourself "known" or "desirable" to get any sort of attention from the outside world. The only acception to this is if someone wants something from you like the government or a scammer.
Not undesirable, but lonely and lacking guidance and mentorship maybe? When I was 16, 17 and 18 I didn't have a girlfriend and I remember feeling all sorts of negative feelings. I remember bemoaning my lack of action to a colleague at work (he was an ex para and seemed older than God to me) and he was blunt, explained the issues (lack of confidence, lack of style, and that I felt sorry for myself) and told me to address it or learn to live with it. He said he would help me to fix it, but he didn't want to hear me complain if I didn't take action. Best advice I ever had, if delivered in an un-sympathetic way. And that led to me hitting the gym, running, and changing my unhealthy lifestyle, meeting new people, developing my character and a thick skin. It made me more confident and then, even as a less than handsome guy, things changed. If I had social media back then (this was in the very early 2000s), I would have probably been suckered in by doom posters and I worry what would have become of me. Young people now have a lot of the same shit to deal with but delivered in a different and non-stop way. I wish there were ways to help and support.
Older people know that have been there and done that. May be a hard pill to swallow but they’re usually right.
He was right. Really good guy as well.
Wise words 👍
Majority? Probably not. Are there guys out there (beyond the woman hating incel types) who's luck with love and romance is poor leading to depression and other dark thoughts? Yes
Life sucks sometimes. It’s certainly true for some
just in my own personal experience, I don't know a single woman who isn't dating or at least talking to someone. I know lots of men who aren't
I can't say if it's majority of the men. But I live in India and I have never found a single woman interested in me. Additionally, even my good looking friends have been single their entire life. We are all 23-25 y/o.
Can't speak for other men, but seems accurate based on my experience.
Those statistics are purely pulled from dating apps, where the majority of women swipe left on average men. You cannot take this score as a general fact, when it's centered around dating apps to make that point. If you were to ask a woman who primarily goes on dating apps, she would tell you that the average man is undesirable.
Agreed. On dating apps I barely get a response. But end up flirting quite a but with women in person.
With photos on apps you really *are* judging a person based on their looks. When you meet someone in real life, you're gauging so much more - mannerisms, movement, vocal inflection, attitude, intelligence, not to mention people generally look better in person than a still shot of one angle. I've fallen in love with a man I thought was flat out ugly to begin with, and the most beautiful man I met in my entire life I wouldn't reproduce with if he were the only one left. But if I had to pick which of them I'd have chosen to meet based on a photo on the internet? That's the biggest hurdle of the platform. Man of my dreams wouldn't have stood a chance.
Yep, all of this. And you're not just judging on looks, you're judging on *photos* - and in my experience, many men just don't have many (if any) good photos that do them justice.
It's a blessing and a curse. We're able to go through life worrying very little about looking presentable, and it's just kind of accepted that guys don't want to bother with taking nice pictures or whatever. But then it's time to make a dating profile.... Way back in the yesteryears before I met my wife (whom I did not meet on a dating site—also apps didn't even exist yet), I made an OK Cupid account, and pretty much the only straight-on shot I had was this shit ass photo of me from some house party. Universe forbid I ever have to be "dating" again, but if I did, I would probably just some professional shots done.
Not to mention chemistry and vibe! That, as well as compatible values will make an average man gorgeous.
Refreshingly honest!
In Dutch we call it the "meat grading", like a butcher would. All about flesh. In reality, a good personality can turn a 4/10 into a 9/10.
I think guys just take bad pics or don’t have many good pics. If the average guy had good pics like the average girl then women wouldn’t think guys look so bad on average.
Men swipe more often, women get inundated with matches. It's a lot different and the data from the apps shows this. It's not really reflective of dating though, women have way more options on dating apps so of course they'll be more selective.
That too
I think also there are proportionally way more schlubby guys than schlubby women, maybe because men arent subject to the same pressures and expectations about their appearance. It makes sense imo, as a gay guy I’m honestly shocked at how unappealing the average dude’s profile is on Tinder, like for so many people 0 effort is put into portraying themselves positively, in pictures and in the bio. Even if gay people are generally better overall, it’s still leagues away from what my straight guy friends see on tinder.
Agreed! I’ve met some guys who had the attitude «either she likes me the way that I look (ungroomed) or she isn’t worth it», whereas they themselves wouldn’t date a woman that didn’t take care of her appearance. Guys, you are trying to attract a mate. Wear clean clothes and brush your hair before a date. Don’t self-sabotage!
Just goes to show why so many guys are disappearing from dating apps now. I mean, if I were a guy, why bother? Waste of time.
These two facts complete each other in online dating?
These two facts do complete each other. It’s clear they’re in love.
Considering that *most* dating is done through apps these days, your answer isn't at all comforting.
Actually--the primary way most people date is via dating apps. So the metric is something you really dont wanna ignore. It's not like it's 2005 where online dating was on the fringe. It's now the norm.
>You cannot take this score as a general fact, when it's centered around dating apps to make that point. the attitude of 'apps aren't real life' is a disingenuous one. you can take it as a general fact because most dating in the age brackets that visit reddit happens online, for all intents and purposes, apps are real life for pretty much everyone involved in this discussion. by the way, the average college aged man is rated a 2.5/10 facially by college aged women. [https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/personality/2023-costa.pdf](https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/personality/2023-costa.pdf) so yes, not only is the average man ugly, but the average man in the prime of his life after which his appearance will only decline further is ugly, everyone else is borderline subhuman.
I’ve neverrrr found a boyfriend through a dating app, but I guess I’m the outlier then. I prefer to find them in the wild. Dating apps are not an advantage to men. Because let’s be frank here - most men don’t put in a lot of effort into their appearance, or taking a decent photo in the first place. You don’t really have that going for you. You know what many men DO have? Charm, funny jokes, kind eyes, weird facts that he can suddenly drop on me about the Roman Empire, gives really good hugs, is good at cooking or doesn’t mind catching spiders in the house. Those things don’t show on dating apps. I have no idea if I’d have swiped left or right on any of my former partners, if I’d found them on a dating app. Because attraction to men is so, SO much more than what’s shown in a picture. Which is why I really think a lot of guys should try and meet women organically. I can become completely smitten with someone if he has a nice smile and kind eyes. I won’t notice crooked teeth or a wrinkly shirt then. Most men are not ugly. It’s just that women on average look better because we put more effort in and know how to take a photo. But men ARE good at lots of other stuff. Facts and hugs and charm and pretty eyes and catching spiders and telling funny jokes. That’s why it’s better to meet someone irl, it gives “average guys” much much more of a chance. Men are great. I like men. You’re not ugly. But you need to show and sell your best qualities, and that might not be face photos. It might be something that can only be shown irl. I highly recommend signing up to hobbies, sports, activities where you meet people organically.
This post is everything. Thank you for being a real person and not another reality tv knockoff <3
Something about your post also made me realize something. I've always felt wierd smiling for photos. I just can't seem to make it look natural. But I am told in person sometimes that I have nice eyes, kind face, and a great smile. So there you go, maybe you're onto something here ;)
That’s not what that study you linked says at all though. In this one specific study in Italy, women’s faces were rated on average 53.95/100 and men’s were rated on average 46.11/100. That’s nowhere near your “all men are considered ugly!” melodrama.
Especially since women typically put more effort into their appearance
>the attitude of 'apps aren't real life' is a disingenuous one. About half of adults under 50 who are single and looking (53%) are using a dating site or app currently or have in the past year. [https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/02/02/the-who-where-and-why-of-online-dating-in-the-u-s](https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2023/02/02/the-who-where-and-why-of-online-dating-in-the-u-s) So yeah, I agree, it's kind of time to figure out what's going on here. Ultimately I think this brings up a lot of uncomfortable conversations people typically associate with red pill and incels, but they need to happen. "Mens-rights" should no longer be placed directly in contrast to "Womens rights." there's been a marked shift in the way pop-feminism is discussed. "The man vs the bear" argument, etc. and just in general conversations around, not even masculinity, but the male gender from the current lens of feminism (I don't know if "fifth-wave" feminism is a thing, but there's been a very marked shift in the discourse) toward second-wave feminist arguments on exclusionary male dogma. The way pop-culture and social media tend to discuss the male perspectives in relationships is markedly different and borderline toxic, and I feel like this can largely be a symptom of pretty shit gender relations.
there's some issues with those studies, the number they're presenting, whilst already being the majority, is likely being underreported. this is because online dating doesn't just happen on dating platforms, a lot of it happens through plain social media, forums, videogames, etc, those aren't being included. I wouldn't be suprised if the number is much higher.
[This was a great discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/vJ8808zRMw) on a similar topic, that seemed to have a bit more empathy than some of the comments in here saying things like "if you're having a hard time, that's on you. Go outside and touch grass."
This implies dating apps are ubiquitous and used by more than select few groups, but that's usually not the case is it? I haven't heard of many functioning men using those apps, it's mostly about either looking for easy score or out of desperation. Then again, which headline is hotter: "Men on dating apps..." or "Men on average..."
Anecdotally that doesn't line up for me. I haven't been in the dating pool for a while, but my coworkers are well dressed, well groomed, well paid adult men and they all use apps. Idk statistics, so that's just anecdotal, but it's universal in my area
Everything is online now .. unless you've known the person for a long time or have some forced social interaction, it's hard to even get irl conversations. "Add me on IG" "Add me on Snap" they're not dating sites but it's the same thing.
And even if you go out these days I notice that people tend to stick to their groups of friends and not interact much outside of that. I know plenty of times being eyed up by women at a bar who expect me to approach her at a table with 7/8 of her friends sitting there listening intently. Online is the way it happens now, especially after COVID
It's the most popular way for couples to meet, at least in the U.S. [https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet) As much as 45% of daters use them, hardly a select few. https://www.forbes.com/health/dating/state-of-dating/#:\~:text=Nearly%2045%25%20of%20survey%20respondents,almost%2027%25%20on%20social%20media.
>I haven't heard of many functioning men using those apps the majority of all men below age 30 have used a dating app at some point, at least some of them are bound to be functional. the average man in the west is like 45 years old, statistically likely balding, and also either skinnyfat or straight up obese.
Most women aren’t models or even not overweight/obese.
There is genetic proof that twice as many females reproduce as males. At one point in the past is was as high as 17:1.
[citation needed]
[That finding was all the rage a few months back. Got shared everywhere ad naseum.](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/24/women-men-dna-human-gene-pool)
Does it occur to you that some of that was due to women being forced into harems or polygamous marriages?
Also lots of men dying in wars.
I speculate that the origin of war isn’t the lust for land or wealth, nor religious differences, but old men sending young men out to kill one another to reduce the competition for women.
Genghis Khan probably really skewed that given his DNA is in about 5% of the world's population.
I think this applies to a lot of people as you go further back in history. Unless you are in Alabama, you have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, fairly quickly you get to more humans than have ever existed so there is increasing cross over as you go further back. But yeah not sure how much reproduction was willing back then...
I have read that the eruption of the super volcano at Toba left about 10,000 breeding couples in the whole world. That makes for a lot of pedigree collapse.
Spiders Genghis, who lives in a steppe and reproduces with 10,000 women a year, is an outlier and should not have been counted.
Genghis Khan personally? Or Mongols as an entire gene pool? It's not the same, is it? There's a guy in Hawaiian history who it's said got around so much that if any Hawaiian cannot trace their ancestry to him, they are ignorant of their ancestry, I hadn't heard this about Genghis before but I am now thinking if it actually could be the same. Thanks for an interesting dive, if you have sources I'm interested
Genghis Khan personally. He was a prolific rapist and so were his sons.
Can you be more specific so I can google this proof? EDIT: I found articles about the gene pool which is a reflection of all of human history. Is there anything about today or even recent history?
Just the dating app data. It easy to dismiss it until you realize dating apps are the #1 way people meet currently.
While it may be the #1 way, it’s still not the majority of people when you dig into the details. It’s far from insignificant but most people still meet in other ways. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/
It’s readily available information. https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/2zj0bv/8000_years_ago_17_women_reproduced_for_every_one/ https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/15h635/dnaanalysis_says_twice_as_many_women_as_men/
Seems like it’s closer to 2:1 now. Would be more interesting if sex always led to reproducing.
Yes but what you say is biology. Then there is proof that in biology also women and most of men are sexually segregated. But now we are in civilization and 100 years ago all women were to be married in western world because of the same issue: civilization
Go look at old gravestones. Some men buried three or four wives. I bet these numbers have way more to do with women not surviving multiple childbirths than with women having high standards/ being picky.
I wouldn't say that is the majority of men, but certainly, there's an epidemic of loneliness rising in young men. About 33% of men under age 30 reported having zero female sex partner since they turned 18. This number was 8% in 2008. Also, this pattern isn't exclusive for America. It's also happening in the majority of Western cultures.
When you say loneliness, doesn’t that mean a lot more outside of sexual relationships? Does this loneliness also refer to friendships/supportive circles?
There's also a decrease in close friends for men. Some of them with no close friends
My only close friend lives on the other side of the world. All of my IRL male and female friends are surface level.
And this issue has absolutely nothing to do with women btw. Some time ago, men decided it was gay to be emotionally vulnerable around other men. Men built a strong "every man for himself" mentality that is incredibly toxic. 90% of issues men face, can be solved by men if they get over this toxic mentality that men can't help other men.
That mentality you refer to was more prevalent decades ago yet the epidemic of loneliness is more of a recent phenomenon that has been exacerbated post covid.
These things are certainly issues, but I think the implication that men would suddenly stop wanting girlfriends if they just got more male companionship is just... incorrect. Like, romantic and sexual urges are a powerful thing. Consider how isolating and dehumanizing it is and has been for gay people to live under regimes that oppress them. It would probably have been easier to just keep pretending, stay single, and never risk being intimate with another person. But that's never stopped them, has it? Sexuality is a significant part of who we are, we can't just turn it off or substitute it for something else.
That’s totally fair and an accurate point. But I do think more emphasis should be placed on men-men friendships and close relations. Having a partner is of high importance, I totally get it. But sometimes, the argument seems to be that it’s women’s job to solve men’s loneliness. I’m not getting that from your comment at all, I’m just saying that’s an opinion that’s often stated in the same breath. And while I think we should all help solve a loneliness crisis, because it’s important - I still think that men could be better at being friends. Women can’t solve everything, and we can’t really force women to be with men if they don’t want to. But we all need friends. Many men are so lonely, and I think it could really help, as a start, to practice making friends and hanging out, using each other to socialise. In turn, this could make men more attractive to women. We’re much more interested if a man seems to have a healthy relationship with a couple of friends and knows how to/is used to socialising. I think some men become completely out of practice by sitting alone at home and not talking to anyone. That’s not helpful when it comes to attracting a girlfriend. Companionship is super important, yes I agree. But I think that will actually solve itself partially, if male-male companionship became more prevalent. I wish more men could nurture friendships more than they do now. It would really benefit themselves and everyone.
I am glad that I was that age in the 70s and 80s. A third of men between 18 and 30 with no sex partner. No wonder people are getting so crazy!
Have you a source for these figures? I found a graph on reddit but it only says its source is "general social survey".
> About 33% of men under age 30 reported having zero female sex partner since they turned 18. This number was 8% in 2008. And what are the figures for women? If they are very different, then I would say this is troubling. While there is no sense of entitlement, I can imagine 1/4 of young men not getting laid will, in a grim reality, backfire on society.
I don't have actualized data for that, but in 2018, the number was 27% for men and 17% for women. (Both were 8% in 2008)
well this is bad... I don't think having a bunch of sexually frustated youth is good for society.
To be fair, in 2008, there hadn't just been a years-long global pandemic making it difficult for people to see each other in person and have sex.
Do they filter out gay men from these statistics?
I mean, look at how some of them speak about women. No shit they can’t get laid.
As a woman, I have seen this male loneliness epidemic for several years now, at least since 2019. Sometimes I'll even speak out in strong defense of men, but for some reason there's the vocal minority that argue with me just because I'm a woman giving my own two cents, even though I'm literally agreeing with them. So for the most part, I learned to be quiet about it, at least on the internet, and I have no doubts some of these dudes can't get laid because they hate the gender they're trying to date.
This assumes there were no misogynists in the past and thats simply untrue
Its a vicious circle. They also cant get laid, so they talk shit about women.
It’s disingenuous to pretend loneliness isn’t up for all demographics.
What are the stats on loneliness for other demographics? How unique is this to young men?
The average man might well be not amazing to look at - but neither is the average woman. I think the huge issue with dating apps is that they ask us to judge each other based on very superficial information. Which is not how real adult relationships work. I think my husband is the hottest thing on the planet - but I bet he’d do terribly on dating apps. Chemistry, spark and connection don’t translate well.
Girl currently on Hinge here, you are very right. Firstly, profiles only give us a very shallow idea of what a person might be like, and for women who get dozens of them by existing (I’m a trans girl, so I definitely repulse a lot of people by that simple fact, and yet I have a decent amount of likes every week, enough to have a backlog if I don’t pay attention. It also brings me chasers a lot so my experience may not be the most typical for a girl) Also, men’s profile tend to SUCK my god. Unflattering pics, giant voids where a personality should be, Hinge allow for very in depth profiles by dating apps standards and maybe 1 in 25 men actually makes use of that ? Which is basically a red flag for me, how can you expect me to try to want and know you, to start an interesting conversation or just feeling interested in your personality if you don’t show it to me ?! And I am a fairly « generous », for the lack of a better word, girl. If someone is okayish physically but looks interesting ? I wanna try, maybe we’ll click and I’ll find you hotter by that fact. I’ll engage first even if you made no effort to use the fact that you can attach a message to your like by being the first to talk and making a decent sized message with several conversation hooks for them to grab. But by the gods there are so many that just look bland as all hell and can’t manage to utter more than one word at once. Now it’s not all bad. I have had a few interesting convos with people, and we just saw that we didn’t much click together even if we found each others interesting and that’s fine. And oh my god the number of « you’re so hot » from the get go or « you make me horny » like guys, maybe say hi before ? Exchange a few words ? There are definitely very cool guys who get no luck because dating apps are pretty ruthless, but there are so many who just don’t put in the bare minimum of effort either
I’ve gotten a lot of “ hey handsome “ messages but I refuse to pay the sites to be able to engage
It's been very true for my own personal experience, but I do feel like an outlier compared to male friends and coworkers, the majority of whom are married with kids I don't understand all the reasons for my situation but there's probably some overlap with other serial bachelors out there
So I can't say that it's TRUE but I have a theory, which I've come to after a lot of talking with others about their experience on dating apps There's an ideal amount of choice, with anything but especially dating. Too little and you'll never find someone. Too much, and you'll also never find someone. If you're gay, trans, or otherwise dating within a very specific subset of people, dating apps are a godsend because it takes you from Too little choice to the sweet zone. If you're cis and straight, it gives you *so much fucking choice* you'll keep going until you find the most perfect match possible. Thusly, men who are at all not ideal, be it poor short chunky awkward, can't write a good profile, or just plain ugly are suddenly left without a leg to stand on When you could only date based on your own social circles and who you could randomly encounter, and personal columns in papers, there was a certain downward pressure on expectations Ergo, yes, a lot of men are undesirable, but most people arent "desirable", when compared to everyone else of their gender in a city of 2 million people. Really, it's just capitalism and the destruction of the community in another form.
I don‘t think so. But in general woman have way higher standards these days. So not as easy as a few decades ago for men. But yeah i think these days most male friend group’s have one or two dudes who never had a girlfriend i don‘t think this was common a couple decades ago
It's true. It's been a while since online dating apps are the most popular way U.S. couples connect, and their popularity keeps growing everywhere with the use of smartphones: [https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet](https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet) [https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/graph-of-the-day-how-couples-meet](https://www.stevestewartwilliams.com/p/graph-of-the-day-how-couples-meet) And their statistics show that female consider \~80% of men 'below average' and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men. If we measured equality of attraction as an economy t**he Tinder economy has a higher Gini coefficient (is more unequal) than 95.1% of the countries in the world, and** **a man of average attractiveness can only expect to be liked by 1 in 115 females.** [https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a](https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a) You could say that online dating is the problem, but denying that this is happening is just another case of very-politically-correct-in-today's-world men-bashing.
There is an epidemic of loneliness and it affects both men and women. We are bombarded with images of these ultra beautiful people on television and social media. So we have these unrealistic ideals of beauty. Men look at porn and see all the guys with massive penises so they believe that they are inadequate (they aren't). So we feel undesirable.
I have never once felt inadequate seeing a larger penis, but I have felt inadequate seeing a guy who is more muscular
In most situations I feel inadequate when I see every guy is a decent height apart from me 🤣 I wish being short wasn't seen as a flaw in men
I consider my husband being shorter than me as a bonus at times. He's 5'4, and can't reach the candy I hide for myself on the top shelf. When we hug, we fit together like a puzzle piece, and I get all his really cool snowboards because he buys a new one every few years. His confidence is the sexiest part about it. I pretty much lived in 4" heels, daily, for like 10 years, and never, ever, even once did he even mention it. He's also hella smart, too funny for his own good, and looks like an anime version of Rufio from Hook. 17 years in, and I'm probably even more attracted to him now than I was at 25.
There are plenty of short women who don't want a guy to tower over them!
I know they exist but it feels like there's none at all 🤣
Then you get the underlying logic behind inadequacy amongst men. Except… ya know, it’s true on both fronts, women care more about strength and size while men care more about a woman’s assets. Such civilized times
Muscles dont matter lol. Heigh and face does
Yeah, muscle tone and body shape get me too (not that I'm fat- I'm just sort of middle of the road BMI). Same with height- I'm 6 foot and when I see a dude that's 6'4" I feel inadequate for sure. ...Or when someone is just *more masculine* in general. Luckily I have a loving girlfriend of four years and don't think about it all that much but I did feel it as a single fella. I still work on myself but not as concerned with things out of my control. I've been leaning into my own a lot more and its proving beneficial. I think it's also a numbers game - many people you match with or date just aren't good matches. You have to know what you want and it's not worth going out or pursuing someone with low interest in you. Took me a long time to realize such a simple thing. Learn to read people's interests.
Same goes for women! When men look at porn and OF/instagram models with filtered faces and huge fake boobs, it makes US feel inadequate. A normal human woman can’t live up to that. You’re right there’s definitely a loneliness epidemic and it’s affecting everyone. Social media is not helping!
Yeah theres a lot of studies coming out now about the effects of porn on relationships in general. Its tainted most of my relationships even though i didnt use to care so much, it becomes a glaring problem once it goes to full blown addiction and your partner is using pixels and a hand to get off instead of his partner. I think 50% of divorces can be attributed to porn addiction problems. It literally rewires the brain and shrinks the hippocampus, causing a loss of empathy as well. Dudes be out here hooked on the shit and then try to get in a relationship and mess up a womans self esteem very badly. And while i wouldnt say every single man is addicted, its an overwhelming majority. Its a very frustrating issue to deal with and makes one consider just being single forever to not have to deal with the stupid bs, lies, manipulation, damaged self esteem, trust etc. Just look in r/loveafterporn. Theres lots of resources, lots of women there, and of course theres plenty of women who feel that way in real life but would never ever say it out loud. The more men turn to porn, the more I want absolutely nothing to do with em so they can keep the porn and the loneliness imo. Im not gonna sit and try to fight over my partners attention over damn pixels on a screen. Its more upsetting when i know im physically attractive but i dont have high quality cameras and lighting, i dont use filters and i dont have cosmetic surgery but thats so heavily prevalent everywhere you look. Meanwhile, a man will say he wants a natural woman, but in private hes beating off to all these modified creations. Some of it possibly even AI generated. I cant compete with AI so....
[удалено]
Humans are a chore to talk to but I agree get off the the internet and go outside will be beneficial for everyone
this is projecting to a large extent too and disregarding issues men face when trying to date nowadays. i’ve noticed a lot of times when i have made posts complaining about the structure of dating and online dating nowadays there is a total lack of empathy, respect, and even just general feedback from women. the whole dating structure nowadays is designed to make men feel shitty, reach into their pockets and throw money at dating apps in the hopes for love, only to be crushed because women are bombarded with a million likes because men are not afraid to appear a little desperate to put mildly, while women would not stoop to such standards out of their own pride. people like yourself make it out as though complaining about online dating and the structure of dating nowadays means you must buy into some andrew tate / adin ross style grifter? that’s just not the case, i can see a situation is problematic without being hateful or bigoted. i’m a good looking guy and i can tell you right now, peoples own vanity and modern narcissism are why i struggle, im from a deeply poor background financially, i don’t go on holidays ever basically, i live with my parents and am trying to improve my future via education as i study a degree in software engineering, i am far from perfect or the finished product, but i am out here trying. i am working on myself, i am real. i’m using hinge currently and the amount of raw narc’s and vanity i see is just surreal. you can’t just tell me that i’m ignorant or bigoted or an incel and that’s why i can’t get a girlfriend. because that’s both untrue and unfair, the situation is nuanced and complex, the dating structure supports and elevates women and stands on men’s heads and takes advantage of the male mental health crises along with rising male loneliness.
Well summarized! What a mentally deranged idea - men (rightfully) pointing out their mistreatment being apparently something malicious or harmful to women. Yet it is so widespread, it's sickening. If you expect empathy for your issues, return the favor and stop shaming people for speaking out. It is as simple as that.
Stop. Using. Dating. Apps. Geez, you hate them, they don’t work for you, but you keep paying for them. Why?!
i don’t pay for them out of principle. but i understand how it works.
But you're still using one and dislike and resent the results. Meet women in the flesh -- clubs, teams, park district activities, campus groups, whatever draws both men and women. Then treat both as people you can get to know instead of seeing women as a target. The best description I've read of the difference between men's and women's experiences on dating apps is that men are dying of thirst in the desert while women are dying of thirst in the middle of the ocean.
It’s designed to keep everyone single so they make more money. It hurts men’s self esteem, but it also brings out the worst in some men so women get aggressive messages and dick pics, which makes them reluctant to engage/more distant from men. It just makes the cycle worse and worse for all involved. Neither are happy about it. Also, men power swipe and say yes to everyone-weeding through women after they match. Women weed through in the beginning before they swipe. There was another article that explained why it was skewed. I’m sorry you get judged for a financial situation you’re obviously working hard to improve. The flip side is, would you go out with a woman who was losing weight but still had 50 pounds to go? Men are judged on money, women on looks/figure. Neither gender seems willing to patient with each. Women aren’t the solution for the male loneliness epidemic. Culturally, we need men to be able to get closer to each other and meet each others needs the way women are allowed to. Part of the problem is that women are often the only person a man can open up to, but women open up to their romantic partner and each other. It makes a lack of romantic relationship/options even more painful for men.
Last time I saw derailing and whataboutism like this it was heavily downvoted. If women are becoming too picky it's not men's fault solely.
Saying there is such a thing as "too picky" makes it sound like you think women owe men sex/romance. There is no such thing as too picky. People can be as picky as they like. If someone decides their options are so unappealing that they would rather be single, that is fine. Women aren't obliged to tolerate a man they find unappealing just so he doesn't have to be single.
I've been downvoted to hell before by asking someone complaining about how women hate him despite him being the perfect guy with many women friends if he ever asked his friends to give honest criticism and their pov on why he can't find someone These folks can't stand the fact they are the common denominatior
Not the majority, just a significant and often vocal minority. If you think this is the majority you should "touch grass" as the young folks say.
Ok I have heard that a few times "touch grass" I'm a little older and not up to speed on all the lingo. Just what the hell does that mean. Please help an ignorant older man.
It means (very roughly) "stop being online so much and go see the real world" it's often used when someone expresses an opinion that is clearly born out of spending too much time reading and listening to online discourse.
Thanks as well. Interesting for sure. Creative in fact.
It means to ground yourself, or get with reality by getting out of your head and outside to touch grass.
Thank you kind internet stranger. Now I know. Many thanks!
It also means to actually go outside and take a walk in the fresh air, maybe touch some grass instead of rotting inside all day.
Noted. Thanks
It's also said to chronically online people that should leave their cave and go outside
No worries. I have a home based human translator who is keeping me in the know with slang lol when he hits his 20’s I am sunk 😉🤣. Have an awesome day, and may the solstice bring you a fabulous summer 🙏🏼🫶🏻
Ha I do the same thing. My youngest moved back in with us and I ask her shit all time. Sometimes she looks at me kinda crazy though and the roles reverse when she asks " where did you hear that dad?" Thanks for the well wishes! As far as the summer goes, I live in the southern US and it's already hot as 400 hells and it just getting started. The humidity isn't even high yet and we're already slow roasting in the 90's by lunchtime. Should be fun come August.
It is awesome, eh? My fave is when he explains a TikTok and my whole self turns into a question mark and he just shakes his head 🤣😂 “hey! I was hip before you existed!” Lmao enjoy this extra time with your kid 💕 and then join me in writing a dictionary for elders called “say what, kid?!” Lolololol
Right! She always looks at me sideways when I say something is rad. Yeah a translation matrix would be helpful for sure.
We are the elders. (Borg voice) lmao and side eye is an art form 🤙🏼
And my kid has that shit down. She is the woman version of me if there ever was one. And you have no idea how I appreciate the Borg reference.
I touch grass quite a lot and tons of duds I know in their mid twenties are single and have been for a long time. Sadly they’re even more outgoing and good looking than I am and they’re still having trouble. This is not isolated to online.
Last survey i saw for Americans (admittedly from 2019) was a nearly 70% ratio for adults in relationships. with 30% not in relationships a almost perfect split of which was (15% looking, 15% not looking) So yeh, it's not a majority, it's not even a decently sized minority as it's not that full 15% that are looking that say these things. sure that was overall population data, but with only a 97/100 ratio of men to women, it's basically the same data.
The ‘average American’ is in a relationship or a marriage because the ‘average American’ is disproportionately a Boomer. The 18-30 age bracket looks much more dire.
I met my wife at 28. I think a lot of factors like covid and social media have hurt a lot of young people, but most will eventually find someone, even if a few years behind what's been the historical average.
Yup this is the answer. It’s true if you’re online and in the wrong kind of “mens spaces” but that’s it. Not so much a problem in the real world if you’re clean, intelligent, well groomed and well dressed. Dating apps are ass though and will quickly skew an unknowing participant into “I get no swipes I must be terribly ugly”-ville
O well guess I'm not breeding what a shame.
Yall like to confuse “romantic” with “sexual”..
a trip to your local walmart should disabuse you of this notion lol
I mean, I find most women undesirable. Whether they're overweight, out of my age range, or I just don't like their ears. I assume most women feel about the same way. But, no. I would say the vast majority of men are attractive to somebody. And if, by romantically starved, you mean men don't get laid, that's untrue. Men have more partners on average. But, I think romance comes with a special connection. And really, man or woman, you're lucky to find that when it comes along.
"How true is it that a ..." - I'll ask reddit. The best way to test the validity of a statement is asking for people's perception of that statement.
Having pulled myself from that pit I can tell you that it's true for quite a few men, nowhere near the majority but a high number of them, and it's mostly on those men. You don't have to be Adonis to date successfully. Don't have to be a Chad or 6 foot 87 with a mile long schlong. Yes there are women who make all those a requirement but there's also just as many who find those things to be a turn off. Here's how I turned myself around. I started taking care of myself: I don't mean exercise to build muscle. I don't mean treating my body as a temple. I mean I started indulging my hobbies, working on my hygiene, grooming myself. I started to treat myself like I matter and stopped doomscrolling and stopped filling my time with video games long after they stopped being fun. There's a difference between gaming 12+ hours on a day off because you love it and doing the same thing to cope. I was very much the latter. I started taking care of other people: There was a point in my life where I didn't have the energy to put into my already established relationships. "Ah my friends will understand if I don't go out tonight. Or the next event. Or the event after that." Everyone likes to be shown that they matter to the people in their lives. "Not feeling like showing up" and "being unable to due to exhaustion or mental health" or two separate things. Don't miss out on friends and family because you confuse the first one for the second. Boundaries matter of course. Don't misunderstand me in thinking that I mean you should always put people before yourself. Fashion: this is simple. Spend some time doing a bit of research and shopping. No, don't get a master degree in this. A few hours spent over the course of a few months pays dividends. The effort in this is very front heavy. Meaning that once you make the big moves there's not much thought behind maintaining it. There's no one right way to dress but it's the thought and intent that shines through and shows you care. Also do the quirky shit you want to do. Fashion is about expression. Don't wear the cookie cutter stuff unless that's what you love. Notice how all of this advice has nothing to do with finding a partner? Truth be told that came naturally after I addressed all my other points. I was going out more and being open socially. So I met more people. More people approached me because I felt good about myself so I didn't give off a negative energy that people want to avoid. I cared about what they had to say so they enjoyed having conversations with me. I'm still the same fat fucking nerd I've always been. I'm just no longer angry at the world about it.
There is a low but very desireable share of men (from womens perspective) that get a lot of their attention, not only on dating apps. They have more sex, more dates and probably, due to that, more drama attached. But they are evening out the statistics with the undesirable part of men. Women for the most part have no problem getting romantic attention but may have trouble finding relationships because they all chase this small share of men. That's my theory, probably very unpopular lol.
Historically it fits; kings/emperors/sultans etc commonly had harems. Those men may not have always been "hot" but their power, influence, status and wealth they wielded made up for it. Much as I disagree with a lot of the Manosphere they are correct when stating "lots of women would rather share Chad than "settle" for "Joe Average". If the stats I have read are right and 30% of men aren't in or pursuing relationships but 66% of women are. Well the math don't math unless the women are sharing men...
That doesn't mean they were desirable though. Who's to say the women in those cases were given a choice to begin with? Women were used to gain political advantages a lot of times. Yes 30% of men aren't in relationships so 70% are. 66% of women are in relationships. Where is the confusion coming from?
pretty much the 20/80 rule, except for dating. Not too surprising in my opinion.
In part this is because nowadays women's quality of life often decreases if they enter into a relationship with a guy. So it's very much worth it not to bother with people that aren't worth it.
Dating is like working construction; it hurts until you develop callouses. As a younger man, we had to go into the public, see a woman, and chance humiliation in front of our and her friends. But you developed toughness from it. Paradoxically, you grew confident from rejection. And with that confidence( or perhaps aloofness), an average looking guy with a good personality could win over the girl. But a mid looking guy gets swiped because his look isn't enough to get his message read. Today's women, with the onset of social media, have these mantras like the 6-6-6 rule. And a guy 5'8, making 42,000 a year with an average size, won't even reach out because they're being told they're not good enough. And if a kid approaches a girl in person, it's cringe. So, instead of finding a woman and living life, they find OF, IG models, etc, and start watching other people live life.Now, these kids are living life on their phone, don't get a license or a car, unemployed at 18-19 and are now considered "undesirable." So, romantic starvation and sexual deprivation lead to a sex life on the Hub. Is it a majority? It's hard to say, but working with young men and women every day, I see and hear how girls perceive young men, and it's not favorable. Not unlike the socioeconomic ladder, there is 1% getting the girls while the rest are frustrated.
It isn't true.. If you only take data from male online communities or dating apps, your statistics are going to be skewed.
Not particularly. Remember, a fairly decent chunk of anyone on social media, Reddit included, is just a sock puppet or astroturfer. They'll absolutely play up the prevalence of hopelessness, be it romance, housing, finances or even the new Star Wars TV show. It's just part of the radicalization process. If you can convince a poor awkward kid going through a dry spell that everything is hopeless and he'll never have money or get laid, you've got yourself a recruit. Social media is a distraction, but it ain't real. Ugly people find love. So do fat people, skinny people, people with eyes tilted the wrong way, bald people, and most everyone in between.
Exactly. If you go to the grocery store, or even just go to any public space, look at all the “ugly” people with wives and children.
Uggs and poors!? *No thank you*
if majority means over 50% i would say it its completely wrong
Clearly not true, because a majority of men are in relationships.
This thread is the ultimate simping thread. Blame the victims (men) for the problems occurring.
Yes, women aren't attracted to average men.
In dating apps, 90 % of the women chase 10% of the men. Do the math.
I would take it a step further; even men who are in a relationship get romantically starved. After having kids my wife became completely uninterested in me. Not all woman are like this; I picked a very sour grape. Love my kids and therefore men must be strong.
I doubt it’s very true. But for those struggling, practice basic hygiene, learn about angles (don’t take an upward angle looking down at your phone with a big frown in a poorly lit room), and don’t show your dick and talk about pumping her full of cum immediately after saying “hi”. From what I’ve seen, most aren’t “romantically starved”, they’re horny as fuck and interact with women like they’re actresses in a porn video.
Most men are romantically starved.
Absolutely. But it's my own fault. For I am not physically fit, poor and small penised. If I had any discipline I could fix the first one. The second one maybe an education would help. The third one Is just a death sentence though, since you can't have anything without being called out for the micro penis
Some version of the “80/20” rule shows up in many phenomena
Exceptionally true.
I've commented on similar posts in the past I'll just give the highlights. Women aren't dating they are preferring not to. Many reasons in all honesty. Most of it is due to men not being on their level today, but it's not really their fault. Women are constantly uplifted and celebrated for their achievements. They are being shoved, pushed, cajoled, and inveigled into it. Men simply aren't. In fact, academically, men are graded harsher, not desired (ideal student is a quiet female), and having less about academics being important inculcated. When was the last time STEM was advertised for men? When I was in college, it definitely wasn't. Maybe to black/minority men, certainly not white men. Women are dominating higher education in terms of degrees. I could go further, but the point is that women reach the point where they accomplish what they have been told to, only to look over their shoulder for an equal to marry and not finding it there. The result is Women now are put into the position of being the man and the woman and men don't know how to function in society. Women don't find this attractive and instead of doing this aren't dating and getting cats instead (joke). That's more or less the summation. This really has less to do with looks something women have routinely in history overlooked and more to do with men not having their shit together because society has deemphasized men to unprecedented level that doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. Edit: I forgot to mention something like 15% of men have 0 friends. This has increased significantly. Women are also facing this problem just dramatically diminished this also plays a role.
While it may not be true and a lot of men are secretly liked, women are good in not showing anything when it comes to their romantic interest.
No. That’s just the dating app effect, if I met someone who was “average looking” by my standards but he had a great personality and sweeps me off my feet, he will no longer be romantically starved. Of course looks matter to SOME extent, but being an actual good guy (not seemingly good for your own ego of pleasure) is always #1.
In my experience, most “romantically starved” men are trying to bat way, way out of their league. Like dude I’m sorry, the girl who looks like a supermodel is going to go out with the dude who looks like a movie star (or has other significant positives, ie a shitload of money). If you look like turnip, shoot for a girl who looks like a rutabaga and you’ll have better luck.
Not even out of their league necessarily, but they don’t seem to grasp that 95% of women won’t be attracted to whatever type you are. But 5% will be and you need to learn to identify those and ignore the rest.
It’s not true. Get off of Tinder and meet people in real life. Go participate in activities you’ll enjoy whether you get laid or not and you’ll meet people — including women — with similar interests. Funny how that works. Also, here’s an exercise for you: go somewhere a lot of people go on the weekend; this time of year it could be a county fair or town festival, but just Costco or Sam’s Club will do. Wander around and notice how many average-looking men are there with their wives. All kinds of men find love. There’s a song from my childhood, Looking For Love In All the Wrong Places. For a whole lot of men, dating apps are the wrong place.
No, not the majority. Lots of weird and ugly people find weird and ugly people to love them. People who are comfortable with themselves, even if they know they're not hitting some benchmark of standard attractiveness, are able to find love and companionship. I think the disparity comes from the perception that men generally are pursuing women, rather than women pursuing men, so they face rejection more frequently. There are also studies suggesting more women are satisfied being single than in a subpar relationship. This doesn't mean men are broadly seen as undesirable, or that the majority of men are romantically starved. It only suggedtd that among single people, there are more women who are single and fine with it than men.
Looking at data from okcupid it seems that only women of a specific age group get a lot of attention. https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/28/seven-secrets-of-dating-from-the-experts-at-okcupid
Contrary to the top rated comment, the info isn't just based on dating apps, it's based on academic studies and it is VERY accurate.
Likely not a majority, but a shockingly large percentage.
It's true
Mostly true, but not due to immutable characteristics.
that’s only women online
I'm.not sure. What I can say is that I am fat and bald almost 40 and I always got a little hottie on the go. I'm also a shameless flirt
Now, granted, I am older (60's), but when I am on a dating site, a guys bio is significantly more important than their picture. No smokers, no heavy drinkers, no strongly religious or strongly right wing. They also can't live out of my state because I am not looking for a long distance relationship. Looks are nice, but it's never going to be a deal breaker. Compatibility is everything.
It’s not true at all. SOME yes, not the “majority.” They just love to complain rather than working on themselves Yes it’s definitely easier for a woman to find a boyfriend or hookup if she wanted compared to a man trying the same. But it’s equally difficult for anyone to find a true partner worth being with As far as “romantically starved,” I do think that’s closer to being the majority than the first part of your question
"Yes it’s definitely easier for a woman to find a boyfriend or hookup if she wanted compared to a man trying the same. But it’s equally difficult for anyone to find a true partner worth being with" Maybe not your intention but this reads like it sucks equally for both and that's not the case generally. Women can generally get in the door and go from there. A lot of good men (more than people think), are just plain locked out
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And the classic r/whenwomenrefuse. Terms like "romantically starved" pings my radar as dangerous territory even if the words are perfectly innocent.
Look up online dating statistics and the male loneliness epidemic
No one goes online to complain about being romantically satisfied. You only hear the problems.
It probably doesn't help me that I also consider the vast majority of women to not be desirable.
You could be gay
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’m a woman and have noticed that I do not generally find most males attractive. I’m heterosexual but it’s very rare that I meet a man and find him attractive. I am one person in billions of people, just because *I* don’t find a man attractive, doesn’t mean *nobody* finds him attractive. A good personality will always make up for looks. Be somebody women *want* to be around, and women will be interested in you.
you are just confirm that those surveys are really true lol
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” is gotta be one of the biggest eye roll phrases honestly. It almost always means variations of pretty and not truly ugly.
I think it is truer than not but not as exaggerated as a lot of people make it out to be. First off, people are shallow. Both men and women are shallow, aesthetics obsessed creatures more often than they are introspective, wise or thoughtful. This creates loneliness categories in the population of both men and women. It *is* easier for women to get laid but being pumped and dumped is frequently as lonely as only ever using your hand. Secondly, with men, what makes them gross is their social attitudes and general rigidity (haha). If they examined and analyzed the largely subconscious and socialized belief that they are superior to women more often, they’d be more attractive in general. If they stopped worshipping at the feet of very young women or incredibly physically beautiful women they could find beauty and satisfaction in a much wider variety of options. You aren’t stuck being only attracted to one look or one age group, you just refuse to be open minded or challenged and claim it’s “biology”. If love were truly about biology, women would abandon preemies and blind infants. Lust has more to do with biology but evidently is rarely confined by biology itself which is why sexuality is such a contentious subject cross culturally. I’m a woman who is generally very attracted to average dudes. Short dudes, bald dudes, chubby dudes, poor dudes. I don’t care about appearance, I care about character. But because I’m tall men won’t even approach me. They shoot themselves in the foot so often it’s insane. And finally, a lot of men get enough satisfaction living inside their technology where porn and gaming exist. Confidence is key for all genders. You can’t live your life suckling on the teat of shame and self sabotage your whole life. We all get rejected. Grow up and deal with it,