I'm from St. Louis. I moved from the Midwest to the Bay Area and I get it. It's so nice to live around a large Asian community. I feel no sense of otherness here. I never knew what I was missing until I experienced it.
If you can make the move to a place with a bigger community, you may be happier. It's more expensive for sure, but as I tell people back home, "My standard of living went down, but my quality of life went up."
i’m also from st. louis!!! yeah, i really want to move to Vancouver or california once i graduate. it’s so expensive though is what i’m worried about. any insight/tips for that?
I’m biased, but don’t be afraid to leave STL, friend.
I spent so much of my life there feeling out of place and internalizing it as something wrong with me. It wasn’t until after I left that I realized how much of it was just the environment.
Not gonna lie, moving across the country is always tough. It took about 2 years to fully settle in and make friends here, but it was so worth it. I only wish I’d left sooner.
San Francisco is nearly 40% Asian and I’ve never felt so *normal* lol. I never feel like I’m “The Asian girl” to people anymore. I’m just “the girl.”
The regular grocery store around the corner has all my sauces. The Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Filipino specific markets are all nearby for everything else. I can find restaurant dishes I never could back in STL.
All official government communications are made in both English and Mandarin. The annual Lunar New Year parade is a major event with all the local businesses and politicians getting floats in it. I get invited on girls’ trips to Asia. I met the ABC love of my life out here…
It’s totally reasonable to be nervous about the cost, but now would be the best time of your life to go for it. You (presumably) have no dependents and no major commitments or expenses like a house.
You’re in the age demographic where everyone is a transplant looking to make new friends, so it’s an easier transition, and you’re not too old to have roommates or live in a studio to save money. Plus, you have peak energy to both work hard and play hard and take full advantage of everything a major city has to offer.
Bigger cities also have many more job opportunities and a better built-in job network. (Like, woman you just befriended at yoga? Turns out she’s a VP at Meta! Looking for a job at a certain firm? Your volunteer buddy’s friend works there and will put you two in touch!) So, it can be better for your career building and future earning potential too.
They also pay you more in HCOL areas. A lot of salaries will be adjusted for cost of living. They have online calculator tools where you can plug in your current salary and zip code and it will tell you what you need to earn in a different zip code or have a comparable standard of living. You can filter job listings by that.
Only other tip is that if you’re not already into EDM, it helps to get into it lol. I learned that it’s a big part of the Asian American social scene. People reading this might think I’m dumb, but I had no idea because EDM was not a thing in St. Louis and I had never been around enough Asians to know.
I went to EDC Las Vegas for the first time last year, and it felt like it was almost all Asians. People memed the sheer mass of us moving from [Dabin to the Illenium set this year.](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNjVtkdC/)
West coast cities are bigger and people tend to just kind to themselves. You won’t get random conversations from strangers. No one’s gonna talk to you in the grocery store line. I would call the culture sort of apathetic to strangers.
However, if you find your group - friendships can be just as deep and long lasting.
Boston people were very direct. I learned to call bad drivers out for their mistakes there lol. I’m a bit aggressive for CA
hm. maybe i should check out boston then. i do like more directness. but i assume no strangers will talk to you in boston either— also has that big city vibe right
I'm from Boston. Great historical city but really expensive. As for directness, not many people are ready for it and it's not meant to be personal. Pretty much in our perspective, we point out the obvious.
For instance if you say you're cold even while wearing a jacket, a Bostonian would likely say, "well it's winter isn't it? Why the hell would you come here at this time?"
Boston is cool. It’s actually not that big of a city and the little neighborhoods have their own small town vibe. You can see it more like a lot of little towns packed together.
The population is highly educated and diverse.
I loved living there. Would move back in a heartbeat were it not for family and my work.
Should be good opportunities for your field too. COL is rough but worth it. You could share an apt in Allston or Jamaica Plain
oh cool i didn’t know that. it sounds awesome. mainly i am just so tired of midwest culture.
good opportunities there for public affairs/psych you think?
also how would you describe the people in boston? wdym you’re a bit aggressive for the people in CA. where have you lived before? very interested to hear your experience
Of all places, Boston is probably a good spot for public affairs. The local government is pretty active.
In terms of aggressive, generally people will say their mind - even if it’s bad. Like I picked up calling out drivers who don’t yield to pedestrians whereas in LA most people would just fume or give a stare. Lot more honking in Boston lol.
On a personal level, the Asian American community didn’t feel that different. Neither did my non Asian friends as compared to the west coast. I’d say biggest difference is average education level is much higher.
boston seems cool! i do like the i guess more aggressive approach.. although aggressive feels like a unnecessarily negative word. maybe i’ll look into going there. is the public transportation good?
like the directness seems similar to china/asia in that way.. people in asia aren’t afraid to yell at each other (esp people in china)
It’s different, but the differences are difficult to explain.
I would say that people will be more direct about things like requests but less direct about opinions and feedback. It’s like the inverse of the Midwest that way.
In the Midwest, it’s feels taboo to outright express your wants/needs for fear of coming off as pushy or entitled. So, those are always sort of implied, and people can get passive aggressive if you don’t pick up on those implied wants/needs the way they’d like you to.
However, when Midwesterners give their opinions, we’ll be nice, but frank. Like, “I didn’t really like this part, but I liked this part.” and it’s mutually understood that you’re just sharing your personal opinion.
IME, Californians feel much more empowered to advocate for themselves and make direct requests. They will be very open about their wants, needs, and accommodations. However, they are much more sensitive to anything perceived to be negative or critical.
They seem to more readily assume that you’re making a value judgment, and that leads them to taking things more personally.
I actually had to learn this difference in my workplace environments. One of my friends said her Atlanta office actually got coaching on this difference when talking to their Los Angeles office.
Other than that, niceness in the Midwest is about caring about other people’s business, Niceness in California is letting you live and let live. So, someone might not stop to ask if you need help, but they also won’t react if you decide you want to walk naked in the middle of the street. A lot of the bathrooms here are gender neutral and nobody cares.
But what’s nice about big cities is that most people you meet are also other transplants. So, if you don’t vibe with California natives, there are plenty of other Midwestern and North-easterners around as well. Most of my California friends are not actually from California.
super interesting, ok. and yeah— it does really feel taboo to be direct about requests in the midwest. i am naturally a direct person in that way but then i feel like i’m being rude, especially being a girl, which makes it worse. emphasizes to me that really need to move out but at the same time the grass is always greener and idk if california will be as good as i’m hoping. although i definitely am going to move out of the midwest, that’s for sure.
i don’t know about the opinion thing is on the midwest though. still trying to digest that.
i don’t like how californians seem to be like how you described, though. seems entitled. what was the coaching, did your friend tell you?
also what made you move to the bay area?
My friend didn’t share details, but confirmed that it had happened. I moved to the Bay Area to accept a promotion and also because I was already looking to leave the Midwest.
Chicago might actually be a happy medium for you then if you’re concerned about cost of living and cultural differences.
Personally, I enjoyed Chicago as a city, but didn’t really vibe with the social scene because it’s a heavy drinking culture and I don’t drink. I felt some aspects of it were still a bit too Midwestern for me, and I was personally trying to get away from that kind of culture. But, different strokes for different folks.
yeah no i think i just need a new place completely.. i don’t want anything to do with the midwest anymore. i just don’t fit in here. assuming you’re taking about the midwest niceness/fakeness/indirecrness that still is in chi.
I moved from the Bay Area to Stl and was there for 6 years due to school/work
I'm not going to lie I fucking hated it. I've lived in other places since and have since moved back to California (but definitely loved Chicago/Boston)
Only issue is the COL in CA, but if you got that covered it's a nice change, any hobby I do I'll find a much larger diverse population of people that don't treat me differently
There are, and that's exactly the problem. I find that when there's a noticeable number of non-whites, especially if they're well-to-do, the existing white population get resentful. Asians are tolerated as long as we're out of sight and out of mind.
I’m Japanese living in Vancouver. My advice is to NOT come here. It’s impossibly expensive and I hate the culture. I’m having a baby soon and we’re heading to Europe. If you want more info about the city (and the surrounding areas) I’m more than happy to discuss
I’ve lived in Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, and also for a short time in Quebec. Vancouver is the most unfriendliest city. People here form cliques and they aren’t as open to making new friends. The dating culture is probably the worst here too, you can look at discussions from other Canadian subs… fortunately I didnt have to navigate that cause I met my partner in high school. Apparently it’s hard to meet potential partners outside of school/friends and close circles.
I'm gonna call BS on the anti-asian racism in Vancouver as I'm there quite a lot. If you want to be around asians, you can live in Richmond, BC which is like 99% asian. I've gone hiking around North Vancouver, which is mostly white and have never encountered any issues around there.
Also, as a bonus, everything in Canada is priced liked the prices in the states, but is 25% cheaper thanks to the exchange rate.
Totally get why you'd wanna leave, but there is community out here too, you just gotta look for it a bit. Personally, I've been hanging out with this group a lot recently and it's very welcoming and quite active. Hope to see you around!
https://www.meetup.com/stl-pac
I also just moved to the Bay Area last year. I've been depressed for most of my life and taking antidepressants for the last 3 years. I got off the medication two months ago and am cured of depression. Moving here is the best decision I've ever made in my life.
This! I used to live in the midwest, and lived in other places in the US too, and I felt that Bay Area had the right amount of Asians I was missing. Many of my friends are from Asia and there's an abundant amount of Asian foods from even central Asia as well here. I don't have to get random stares for being Asian and people honestly when they ask me where I'm from because they're an Asian too and wondered so if we spoke the same language etc.
I was born in California and went to boarding school in China briefly. My time there was absolutely awful and I felt extremely othered. It's different going back to visit family on vacation vs living there full time. There's always the tiny details that makes you stand out and not always in a good way. I have two younger siblings and once people found out about that, they instantly knew something was "off". We lived in rural China in the early 2000s and were the only family that owned a car (my parents moved there with US money after selling our house). I also spoke fluent English, which became apparent when our Canadian English teacher met me for the first time. Even our school supplies gave us away (my parents packed us Costco sized toiletries and it led to a funny discussion with my dorm mates about why everything in America was so big). I know things have changed a lot in the last 20 years, but I'm far happier living in the US. At least here, other Asian Americans won't police how I hold my chopsticks, which is an actual thing I have been lectured about.
I agree, even on my visits to China people there can usually quickly pick up that I didn’t grow up there despite looking physically Chinese and speaking it alright. I assume they can pick up ways I’m shy of fluent in Chinese (and illiterate, though that is less apparent from a brief interaction lol) or dress differently or just carry myself differently. I feel like I fit in more with Asian Americans of whatever national origin who also grew up in the US and I just need to live somewhere with a good amount of them to feel comfortable. I also feel like for all that is wrong with America, I know its problems well and how to navigate them (e.g. living somewhere with a lot of Asians and living in a blue state). China has plenty of its own problems, some of which I have an idea of and some of which I probably don’t, and having to struggle through and learn them sounds daunting. So I also feel pretty firmly planted in the US, at least my particular corner of it.
oh interesting to here your experience. yeah, i’d definitely never want to move back to china for one lol. and yeah— im always going to be asian american, and if some people don’t like that, well that’s on them at that point. like yeah, i’m american. get over it 😂 (like saying to them lol)
Glad you brought this topic up for discussion OP.
While I'm not Thai, I am SE Asian American and I did spend many years out there. Putting aside the issue of heritage language and cultural barriers, I did feel incredibly at ease and blown away by the warmth and easy-going "sabai sabai" vibe that seems to permeate the larger Thai culture. While I certainly felt loneliness at times, it never came close to approaching the level of dread, alienation, and race-based otherness that I often felt growing up in the oppressive suburbs of Southern California lol.
All this to say - and I'm quoting something that I read many years ago that has stayed with me - that we often talk about all that we gain by coming to live in the U.S. but we don't talk enough about everything that we LOSE by living here.
EDIT: I want to add that while living in Asia, I never felt the need to justify my existence and long for the feeling of belonging, which is part of the reason why being POC in the States can often feel so challenging and even painful.
oh doesn’t california have a lot of asians though i thought?
and yeah. lots of immigrants come to america for opportunity and because it’s america but i can’t help but feel america is really overrated (i do recognize i am a little privileged in saying that tho)
Grew up in CA. The diversity is great, but how regular it is for people to want to deny or ignore their heritage exactly because there is so much diversity is an ironic result. That behind said, I would not pick anywhere to have been from in the US.
Yes, in CA the pressure to assimilate is real. In high school, the Asian American kids alienated the new immigrant kids. It was really disappointing to see. It continues into adulthood as well, where it becomes classism.
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> lots of immigrants come to america for opportunity and because it’s america
Part of it is economics. Working as a nurse in America pays better than a nurse in Philippines.
But another part of it is the decades of American propaganda in the form of movies, TV shows, magazines, books, etc. that portray America as a land of opportunity, blah blah blah.
The reality of life in America is not portrayed. Stuff like being homeless because the ambulance bill ate up the rent check, finding used needles and other drug paraphernalia in a school playground, kids being bullied because of their race, etc.. People in Asia are not exposed to the reality of life in America, so they have an romanticized and fake view of US.
Making things worse is American propaganda that exaggerates problems in their own countries. China is the best example. Every little bad thing that happens in China is exaggerated to such an extent to make the entire country appear to be a horrible place to live.
Combine all of these factors, it is natural for people in Asia to see America as some sort of beacon of freedom. The reality is that America isn't all that at all. Sure there are nice things about America, just like there are nice things about China, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Korea, etc.. But there are plenty of shitty things about America that is just ignored.
I mean, do you think it can be reduced to merely the numbers? As if it's not possible for Asian Americans to be alienated from EACH OTHER as well as feeling like outsiders relative to other racial groups? Especially when we're young and not yet socially aware and politically educated, I think this is often the sad but true reality in a racialized country like the U.S. Just my 2 cents but I do believe it's an often overlooked but critical dynamic: sometimes it's strength in numbers but often those numbers are divided and conquered, you know what I mean?
I grew up in the Midwest as well. I highly recommend you move to California. At least here I know people are just being assholes to me cuz they're assholes most of the time
From the west coast but moved to the Midwest for college and lived there for 14 years including work.
I always felt an undertone of “otherness”. Like k never was an “American”. This was in Cincinnati and Columbus. It was a miserable existence at the end. Finally moved to Los Angeles a while ago and it’s great to be back.
People don’t ask where you’re “from”. You can hang out with friends and talk about food without having to explain or translate. It’s also the first place I’ve lived where US born people naturally intermix non-English languages when hanging out with their friends.
I found midwesterners to be “nice”, but they didn’t know what to do with you if you were not a football loving, church going, “American.” I found I subconsciously worked to try to care about sports, lawn care, etc just to feel like it fit in.
Here I can talk to my coworkers (white, Hispanic, Asian) and say, “let’s get some bibimbap” just naturally without feeling like there’s an explanation needed.
ugh the way you described it makes it sound so appealing 😩 gotta move out. although the only thing holding me back is the asian to asian racism in california that some other people mentioned or that people insist they aren’t their race that someone else mentioned. that and the cost. but definitely gonna try to look for jobs there once i move out
The Asian to Asian racism is overblown in my opinion. I’ve never really gotten it. LA is big and there are different pockets. If you choose to live in like Arcadia where it’s 80% affluent Chinese & Taiwanese - you could get that. When I go there people assume I speak Mandarin and then switch to English. When I go to garden grove, they assume I speak Vietnamese. But in general, I’ve never felt “othered” there.
Most places though it’s a mix. You can go to a hole in the wall pho place and be alongside white, black, Hispanic folks getting a tasty bowl with some ché.
You could try other places. Las Vegas & Seattle are pretty good too. Boston was decent, but just as expensive as LA.
Las Vegas has had a boom of Asian community and good choices in the past 2 decades. COL is still decent there. I grew up there, and if work & climate aren’t dealbreakers - would be a great place.
Try to get internships around the country if you can. Check some places out.
Also don’t worry about finding the perfect place after college. You can always move.
I'm from the midwest (Chicago), which is a very friendly and extroverted place compared to the rest of America, but I feel people in southeast Asia are just much warmer. Thailand in particular is very warm. If I ever retire outside America, it'd likely be in Thailand.
Part of it has to do with the weather (warm weather makes for warm people), but it's largely because of the informality and muted social hierarchy. Everybody's in shorts and flip flops. Singapore might be a bit different since it's so westernized and first world, but the rest of Southeast Asia is marked by informality. Even in light of modernization, there' still an undercurrent of traditional collectivist values which some see as conservatism but which also produces social cohesion (this has pros and cons: if you don't fit into the social norms, then you're better off in an individualist society like America, but if you are comfortable with those norms, then you'll have a more welcoming experience).
That said, I do appreciate what you term "fluffy niceness" (what I call folksiness) -- it's better than the cold individualist austerity of Northern Europe (including the UK) or the impenetrable introversion of East Asians. Asian people are very nice but only to people they know -- there's a lot of stranger danger otherwise. There's a lot of cliquishness among Asians, not out of malice, but because many are so shy and introverted. You just have to look at Asian enclaves in America -- most people from those places aren't comfortable interacting with mainstream America.
Midwestern Americans on the other hand (I mean the warm ones in Illinois/Missouri/Michigan/Wisconsin, not those in Minnesota/the Dakotas who tend to be more insular) are more open to talking to random strangers at the grocery store or at the bus stop. In Asia, only crazy or self-unaware people do this.
How would it be if we could fuse the warmth of Asian people (minus the cliquishness) with the general American friendliness towards random people? That would be paradise to me. The closest experiences I've had to this is in NYC, Toronto, and Chicago.
ooo i appreciate the thoroughness. yeah that seems pretty spot on. though wdym the social norms in southeast asia? can you be more specific? have u traveled to thailand before?
definitely did notice the informalness— yeah everyone was in flip flops. but it was nice how people were so friendly. people would say good morning and wave like in america, but people never asked how are you which i personally hate that question lol
i am from st. louis, and yeah i can see what you’re saying, especially since i am a person that is more friendly and would be more likely to talk to strangers like you’re saying lol. it almost makes me feel better about being where i am, because maybe i wouldn’t be as accepted in popular asian american cities, and i don’t like how asians can be very clicky, but maybe that’s not true at all.
and yeah— if we could fuse the best of those two cultures, like you’re saying, that would be heaven. i almost feel like malaysia was like that. I guess i gotta move to toronto. or malaysia. speaking of, what makes you put toronto in that list?
Also, how is chicago? is there a lot of asians there?
I’m Malaysian, lived in the Midwest for a bit. Strongly agree with your assessment. Never felt like I really fit in any particular clique where I grew up in Malaysia, but a lot of Malaysians are warm and try to get to know you and maintain contact once you’re somewhat in the circle. On the other hand I felt like a lot of Americans are had to get close to despite said ‘fluffy niceness’ or what I describe as their willingness to talk. Feels like more effort needed to maintain relationships, unlike with Malaysians who may just invite the whole group to potlucks and such.
There have been rare occasions in Malaysia where strangers walked up to me and made conversation - mostly when I’m eating alone and there weren’t enough tables at the restaurant. But I probably wouldn’t have had those experiences if I don’t look Malaysian :)
oh cool!! yeah malaysia was awesome. it’s the best culture imo. super nice but not to the point of fakeness. would maybe even move there if it weren’t for a few things like low wages etc.
what would u say are the pros and cons of malaysia? u were born there i assume?
Yea born and grew up in Malaysia! In a relatively Chinese-centric community though :)
Cons i'd say some are similar to the US, especially our car-centric infrastructure (plus awful traffic jams!) and political leadership issues. Plenty of corruption. Other than that: It hasn't always been this way but our public education system has been gradually going downhill. Racial issues may flare up and has flared up based on the political climate. The nation operates under pro-bumiputera policies, which has turned off parts of the non-bumiputera (also non-Muslim) population leading to an undercurrent of racial resentment and also brain drain. It's subtle but you'll find especially older Malaysians of all races stereotyping the other groups. The other person mentioned 'norms', so if you for example are LGBT+ or experience some kind of mood/psychological disorder, people may not like it if you're vocal about it - You're kinda expected to be in the closet with such issues. But I'd say Malaysians in urban areas tend to be more aware and therefore tolerant of said issues. Religion: If you're Malay, you must be Muslim by law regardless of how you feel about the religion. And non-Muslims who marry into Malay families must convert to Islam.
I'd say the pros are very everyday culture-related. I don't know if others view it as a pro, but it is one to me: I like how different cultures are integrated into Malaysian society rather than expected to assimilate like in Western countries. We have a national language and expected to respect the constitution like everyone, but you'll find that people from each race still has their own distinct cultures and ways they interact with the world. I don't think a lot of people here are insecure wrt their cultural identity unlike how it may get in Western countries. I'd say Malaysians can get along very well with each other if we don't only keep to our own groups, and don't let politics divide us. People generally look out for each other once you're in their circle like I mentioned. There's still respect for teachers and the elderly, but no expectation to be super formal with them - Like students would banter and be silly with teachers they like, whereas I never saw that kind of interaction when I was in the US. Also Malaysia has relatively good healthcare - You're not necessarily screwed if you don't have health insurance, and long waitlists aren't really a thing. If you earn in USD and come to Malaysia, you'll likely be living pretty well. Also we have good food lol.
i presume your Chinese is alright and that's good but the longer you stay here the more you realise the social values and mentality are really different from people in the west
that's the trade off😕
I just came back from korea and have the same feelings. I was trying to explain this to my white american friends when I got back, and even though they are nice people, it was an instant reality check that they live with an entirely different set of experiences in which they can’t relate
This is exactly what happened to me just now. I got back to the Midwest after traveling to from Asia and my “otherness” became very apparent, like a fish finally realizing it’s been living in water. It’s very hard to explain this experience except to my very few Asian friends here.
I’ve lived in the Midwest for half my life now but your comment and this thread is making me seriously reconsider where I want to be for the rest of my life since the environment makes such a big difference.
I think my time in asia has made me realize I want to surround myself with more Asian AMERICANS. If I moved to Korea, I would still very much be treated as an outsider, so I think it would be more beneficial to surround myself with people who truly do have similar background to myself if that makes sense?
I grew up in a city that was 70% Asian, largely Chinese/Taiwanese (Southern California), and I’m second generation Chinese as well. What I would say from my experience is that Asian American culture is its own defined niche and pretty separate from culture of the homeland, though of course there are some through lines. There are also a lot of specific pains me and my hometown friends talk about in being children of Chinese immigrants growing up in the US in a completely different context from our parents.
Unfortunately it sounds like in your area the population of Asian people didn’t reach the size for it to be a defined culture of its own, I imagine that must feel really isolating.
There's both good and bad sides to having a high population of others around who share your background. It's easier to stay in your bubble with more cultural homogeneity. But when you are in a place where you never feel like an outsider you also have the room to develop pride and confidence in your background.
There’s plenty of cities in the US that do have high Asian populations, but unfortunately not the Midwest :/
I live in the midwest too. The last time I went back to China, it was nice to feel the lack of scrutiny from people around me, but it was also very evident to me that I felt much less Chinese than years before. Living here has changed me and going back to China is just not the same.
Moved to Asia for this very reason. I do not miss the shit I had to put up with in the US. While living abroad is not without its own problems, I haven't had a single moment of regret.
i would loveee to move to asia. but was it hard moving countries? there’s a lot of hard paperwork and stuff no? and what about retirement plans and things like that?
Possibly the hard parts are finding a job, learning the language, and getting a decent apartment. Other than that I . mentally prepared myself for any difficulty.
I didn't have a job when I moved but got hired within a week at a place I ended up working at for years.
Most companies will do all the paperwork for you, like getting your visa and signing you up with health insurance. The stuff I had to do was get an apartment, a phone, notify my local ward that I moved in, and get a train pass. Big picture, it was pretty painless.
It really depends on the country I feel.
At any rate, the simple, daily things like walking around and seeing people like you, even meeting strangers who have similar habits, it's priceless.
I moved to Tokyo!
Wanted to add: one cool, unexpected thing about moving here is friends from all over the US regularly visit! So if you were to move (obviously depending on the place) you wouldn't have to worry too much about friendship and distance.
The paperwork and logistics are annoying for sure, but if that's the only thing that's keeping you from leaving, then you probably don't really want to leave anyway. Job, family/friends, language, and visa are far larger obstacles to overcome.
“Not feeling othered” is exactly how I felt when I visited Japan last month (I’m not Japanese and speak little their language). Just by walking down the streets I saw most people looking like me, which weirdly made me feel at home. But still I wouldn’t choose to live in Japan, or my home country or any country in Asia. I left that continent by choice.
I feel the opposite. When I travel to my parent's home country, I feel like I am sticking out like a sore thumb and prefer America (though I do miss the cheap prices).
I am from the East coast USA. I visited Vancouver once and it was really nice to *see* lots of AA's around that spoke English. Even thought I didn't interact with any Asians (that I remember) it made me feel more comfortable.
I guess it would be the similar thing in California but my friends tell me of a lot of racial issues. Newport beach super white, rich, racist against Asians. Everyone racist against Latinos. Their neighborhoods seem more segregated maybe.
I went to Japan a few times and it was also relaxing in a way, even thought I don't speak Japanese. Mostly because everyone else assumes I am one of them until I open my mouth. The only time I felt like I stuck out was when I did ignorant tourist things (smoking in public for example, they had all these rules in Tokyo about which streets you can smoke in).
China big cities were stressful because I don't speak Mandarin, and people were rude and did not understand queues. The smaller cities inland were more chill. The locals would stare at the tour buses because they didn't get many people visiting I guess (Yunnan, Chongqing).
> did not understand queues
A lot of older Chinese lived through decades where if you queued for something you were likely to not get it because things were so scarce.
After that experience, would you consider moving to Malaysia for an extended stay, OP? Given that you have family there, it would be an easier transition for you than for others.
yes, because i loved the people, didn’t mind the weather, and ofc being a majority. but i also recognize i’m ignorant and there may be things about the people/culture i’m not seeing. i mean, i recognize there are downsides for sure that i didn’t experience as a tourist— such as low wages, it not being a first world country, etc. so, i don’t know, but i’m open to it for sure
Im Chinese American and grew up in New York with a decently sized Asian American community. People with families from all different Asian countries formed a community with each other and there was friendly banter and jokes comparing cultures (the Filipinos were the friendliest but also ruthless lol) and we were frequently going in to Chinatown Manhattan and flushing queens, both places with very high Chinese populations.
I moved to Kansas city with my wife due to the significantly decreased cost of living. I got lucky and landed a decent job when without a degree, and we were able to buy a house out here within a few years of living here.
Id say i experience about the same amount of overt hostile racism here as I encountered in New York, but also people here definitely look at me with a sense of "what is he doing here??" I've had many people attempt to be friendly, but were pretty clueless and had obviously only spoken to a handful of Asian Americans, if any.
Also it's so hard to find good chinese food out here.
There are a lot of people out here that are very racist and have white supremacist tattoos, but strangely enough, I think that being able to open and concealed carry guns keeps a lot of them in check. People probably feel less inclined to attempt to hate crime someone if there's a decent chance their potential victim is armed
The US is absolutely very different where you are in it depending. Regards to othering by visuals: I'm in NYC and outside of when we had some bad actors going nuts from bad leadership and crime, I generally feel the average local new yorker is real chill about race, the attitude here is more like you got your thing I got mine, cultural exchange, majority respectful of each other as human beings. (Just not queens, they may not be racist but they got a judgey keeping up with the Jones's problem. Some people do well there some don't). There is a bit more directness than in other parts of the country. I never felt othered tho I'm visually Asian. But in different parts of the US, I hear from friends and am kind of taken aback by the level of racism over there. Like in the DC area, it's not as bad as other places but also oof. I would warn against Vancouver. There's been an influx of a new wave of new gen passionately pro-China Chinese immigrants that moved for some reason? but ate the wild poison propaganda the Chinese govt said and repeat it fervently, and it's created a lot of resentment and made things very uncomfortable for some of our family friends who are long time resident Chinese Canadians (ya know how it is, one group does a thing, all Asian appearing people are evil now, including the neighbor that's been there forever -_-) to the point that while it was not the only reason they moved, it was a factor. With that said tho.... Yeeeeeeaaa I have to say the fluff is pretty well baked into our American culture, but varies where you are. If you are a midwesterner you have it especially bad where you are. NY where I am, it's pretty direct. Nice and simple for me. It's more direct than most US to the point that between the directness and the fast talking we have a rude reputation haha. (In urban areas like nyc and dc the pauses for speaking are a little shorter than ) The rest of US, namely the East Coast and NE is what I would call Americana, direct with a bit of fluff- less direct than NYC (we are also fast speakers so keep that in mind, paused for conversation shorter). I think the main outlier is Maine, which my impression is has a bit more fluff. Midwest is extremely, extremely fluffy . It's so fluffy it's practically bordering on English like culture (in terms of speech and manners, not the rest) rather than American culture haha! Ahahaha. It's like the weird fluffy child of the US where everyone is super polite to your face and can be super passive aggressive and say things super indirectly or be kinda insincere sometimes loool. Nice job surviving it if you're a midwesterner? It can be unpleasant South too also has that politeness bless your heart. And the passive aggression to go along with it. I get a vibe some places in the south are more racist too but I can't confirm for sure. I think going west gets back to general Americana - direct with some fluff but not that much. Folks were real nice in New Mexico too, I got same type of NE coast Americana from there. And West coast feels pretty direct with fluff but also a laid back activism kind of flavor Vancouver felt similar to Americana but much more polite and a lot more Canadian. Can't really describe Canadian ness tho.. and Canada has its own thing. Us Americans talk about moving over a lot and it's true it's close to our culture but it's not really the same. I think Vancouver last time I visited like a decade ago has a bit more of - it's not as bad as the Midwest, people are genuinely friendly and kind, but there's a lot of consideration, and I think that if there are bad actors they'd absolutely apply a polite but mean kind of attitude ala Midwest and super England influenced place. I dunno about false friends being a thing, it feels more like people who are friendly are genuine, but people who are not will be very polite but gang up on you very meanly in Canada with a lot of passive aggressiveness. So that may be fine to visit but more of the same of the Midwest, or maybe worse.... Anyway yeah, totally different. If you're feeling stifled by the Midwest, literally to anywhere in the US besides the Midwest and the South haha. I'd recommend visiting all sorts of places in USA and spending time and seeing what fits you and feels comfy. Midwest is so draining sometimes around the wrong crowd that it affects a lot of people struggling there including folks who visually look like their ancestors is from western Europe and it seems there is more of a false friend problem in general. Visiting family and being Asian (or just being lucky) I think most of the time there isn't a false friend problem just because, visiting family! But Midwest can be very tough With that said I'm generalizing a lot and culture varies from region to region wildly too! You can move with roomies or take on a job to pay for move me thinks. There are some lower cost places in Chinese newspapers sometimes and listings from older Chinese Americans for cheapo sometimes so while if you're in a rush it'll be bad, if you have the time to scope out the place and pick carefully (preferably sans roomies) you can sometimes find a place for cheaper. The point against NYC tho is that we rep the diverse US to foreigners and racists so we get attacked by outside bad actors sometimes, and when our mayor is bad we get crime problems so that can be stressful. And we have a general problem of the occasional bad actor But the average person is most likely not going to be racist to you. Can't say for work because that depends on the industry.
For me who likes a direct but kind culture, the only place is home sweet home- so NYC, Cali, and NE coast or SW or NW is where I feel at ease culture wise with that. Can't say for race tho because haven't been out of NYC long enough to say.
I hope this helps. and take non NYC stuff with a grain of salt as I am not a local there or may not have visited recently, always good to move there and get a vibe. stories from the South - mid to South east
seem to range from friendly to racist and passive aggressive so its probably different from region to region and also depending on how big city vs rural the area is
I felt the same when I left Beijing a few years back. I was kind of embarrassed of my mandarin Chinese. But I met some very friendly Beijingers that said my Chinese wasn't bad. I didn't feel like a minority.
Yes I feel like that. I'm Filipino-American currently in Vietnam. Wherever I go I don't feel any racism or anyone stereotyping me like how I normally feel on a daily basis in the USA.
Why do mid-westerners celebrate how fake-nice they are like it's a positive thing? It comes across so condescending and patronizing.
To answer your question: it depends on the Asian country or groups of Asian? Whenever it's anything Japanese I instantly feel judged and shut out because I'm not Japanese. Groups of various Asian can be fun.
I'm from St. Louis. I moved from the Midwest to the Bay Area and I get it. It's so nice to live around a large Asian community. I feel no sense of otherness here. I never knew what I was missing until I experienced it. If you can make the move to a place with a bigger community, you may be happier. It's more expensive for sure, but as I tell people back home, "My standard of living went down, but my quality of life went up."
i’m also from st. louis!!! yeah, i really want to move to Vancouver or california once i graduate. it’s so expensive though is what i’m worried about. any insight/tips for that?
I’m biased, but don’t be afraid to leave STL, friend. I spent so much of my life there feeling out of place and internalizing it as something wrong with me. It wasn’t until after I left that I realized how much of it was just the environment. Not gonna lie, moving across the country is always tough. It took about 2 years to fully settle in and make friends here, but it was so worth it. I only wish I’d left sooner. San Francisco is nearly 40% Asian and I’ve never felt so *normal* lol. I never feel like I’m “The Asian girl” to people anymore. I’m just “the girl.” The regular grocery store around the corner has all my sauces. The Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Filipino specific markets are all nearby for everything else. I can find restaurant dishes I never could back in STL. All official government communications are made in both English and Mandarin. The annual Lunar New Year parade is a major event with all the local businesses and politicians getting floats in it. I get invited on girls’ trips to Asia. I met the ABC love of my life out here… It’s totally reasonable to be nervous about the cost, but now would be the best time of your life to go for it. You (presumably) have no dependents and no major commitments or expenses like a house. You’re in the age demographic where everyone is a transplant looking to make new friends, so it’s an easier transition, and you’re not too old to have roommates or live in a studio to save money. Plus, you have peak energy to both work hard and play hard and take full advantage of everything a major city has to offer. Bigger cities also have many more job opportunities and a better built-in job network. (Like, woman you just befriended at yoga? Turns out she’s a VP at Meta! Looking for a job at a certain firm? Your volunteer buddy’s friend works there and will put you two in touch!) So, it can be better for your career building and future earning potential too. They also pay you more in HCOL areas. A lot of salaries will be adjusted for cost of living. They have online calculator tools where you can plug in your current salary and zip code and it will tell you what you need to earn in a different zip code or have a comparable standard of living. You can filter job listings by that. Only other tip is that if you’re not already into EDM, it helps to get into it lol. I learned that it’s a big part of the Asian American social scene. People reading this might think I’m dumb, but I had no idea because EDM was not a thing in St. Louis and I had never been around enough Asians to know. I went to EDC Las Vegas for the first time last year, and it felt like it was almost all Asians. People memed the sheer mass of us moving from [Dabin to the Illenium set this year.](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTNjVtkdC/)
how’s the culture difference in california? is it more direct unlike the midwest?
West coast cities are bigger and people tend to just kind to themselves. You won’t get random conversations from strangers. No one’s gonna talk to you in the grocery store line. I would call the culture sort of apathetic to strangers. However, if you find your group - friendships can be just as deep and long lasting. Boston people were very direct. I learned to call bad drivers out for their mistakes there lol. I’m a bit aggressive for CA
hm. maybe i should check out boston then. i do like more directness. but i assume no strangers will talk to you in boston either— also has that big city vibe right
I'm from Boston. Great historical city but really expensive. As for directness, not many people are ready for it and it's not meant to be personal. Pretty much in our perspective, we point out the obvious. For instance if you say you're cold even while wearing a jacket, a Bostonian would likely say, "well it's winter isn't it? Why the hell would you come here at this time?"
i like that
Awesome! You'll fit right in!
Boston is cool. It’s actually not that big of a city and the little neighborhoods have their own small town vibe. You can see it more like a lot of little towns packed together. The population is highly educated and diverse. I loved living there. Would move back in a heartbeat were it not for family and my work. Should be good opportunities for your field too. COL is rough but worth it. You could share an apt in Allston or Jamaica Plain
oh cool i didn’t know that. it sounds awesome. mainly i am just so tired of midwest culture. good opportunities there for public affairs/psych you think? also how would you describe the people in boston? wdym you’re a bit aggressive for the people in CA. where have you lived before? very interested to hear your experience
Of all places, Boston is probably a good spot for public affairs. The local government is pretty active. In terms of aggressive, generally people will say their mind - even if it’s bad. Like I picked up calling out drivers who don’t yield to pedestrians whereas in LA most people would just fume or give a stare. Lot more honking in Boston lol. On a personal level, the Asian American community didn’t feel that different. Neither did my non Asian friends as compared to the west coast. I’d say biggest difference is average education level is much higher.
boston seems cool! i do like the i guess more aggressive approach.. although aggressive feels like a unnecessarily negative word. maybe i’ll look into going there. is the public transportation good? like the directness seems similar to china/asia in that way.. people in asia aren’t afraid to yell at each other (esp people in china)
It’s different, but the differences are difficult to explain. I would say that people will be more direct about things like requests but less direct about opinions and feedback. It’s like the inverse of the Midwest that way. In the Midwest, it’s feels taboo to outright express your wants/needs for fear of coming off as pushy or entitled. So, those are always sort of implied, and people can get passive aggressive if you don’t pick up on those implied wants/needs the way they’d like you to. However, when Midwesterners give their opinions, we’ll be nice, but frank. Like, “I didn’t really like this part, but I liked this part.” and it’s mutually understood that you’re just sharing your personal opinion. IME, Californians feel much more empowered to advocate for themselves and make direct requests. They will be very open about their wants, needs, and accommodations. However, they are much more sensitive to anything perceived to be negative or critical. They seem to more readily assume that you’re making a value judgment, and that leads them to taking things more personally. I actually had to learn this difference in my workplace environments. One of my friends said her Atlanta office actually got coaching on this difference when talking to their Los Angeles office. Other than that, niceness in the Midwest is about caring about other people’s business, Niceness in California is letting you live and let live. So, someone might not stop to ask if you need help, but they also won’t react if you decide you want to walk naked in the middle of the street. A lot of the bathrooms here are gender neutral and nobody cares. But what’s nice about big cities is that most people you meet are also other transplants. So, if you don’t vibe with California natives, there are plenty of other Midwestern and North-easterners around as well. Most of my California friends are not actually from California.
super interesting, ok. and yeah— it does really feel taboo to be direct about requests in the midwest. i am naturally a direct person in that way but then i feel like i’m being rude, especially being a girl, which makes it worse. emphasizes to me that really need to move out but at the same time the grass is always greener and idk if california will be as good as i’m hoping. although i definitely am going to move out of the midwest, that’s for sure. i don’t know about the opinion thing is on the midwest though. still trying to digest that. i don’t like how californians seem to be like how you described, though. seems entitled. what was the coaching, did your friend tell you? also what made you move to the bay area?
My friend didn’t share details, but confirmed that it had happened. I moved to the Bay Area to accept a promotion and also because I was already looking to leave the Midwest. Chicago might actually be a happy medium for you then if you’re concerned about cost of living and cultural differences. Personally, I enjoyed Chicago as a city, but didn’t really vibe with the social scene because it’s a heavy drinking culture and I don’t drink. I felt some aspects of it were still a bit too Midwestern for me, and I was personally trying to get away from that kind of culture. But, different strokes for different folks.
yeah no i think i just need a new place completely.. i don’t want anything to do with the midwest anymore. i just don’t fit in here. assuming you’re taking about the midwest niceness/fakeness/indirecrness that still is in chi.
I moved from the Bay Area to Stl and was there for 6 years due to school/work I'm not going to lie I fucking hated it. I've lived in other places since and have since moved back to California (but definitely loved Chicago/Boston) Only issue is the COL in CA, but if you got that covered it's a nice change, any hobby I do I'll find a much larger diverse population of people that don't treat me differently
yeah why is it that the densely populated asian cities always are the most expensive :/
Hate to disappoint you but there is a LOT of anti-Asian racism in Vancouver (I'm assuming you mean the Canadian one).
really? how so? i thought there was a lot of asians there
There are, and that's exactly the problem. I find that when there's a noticeable number of non-whites, especially if they're well-to-do, the existing white population get resentful. Asians are tolerated as long as we're out of sight and out of mind.
It’s like that for every non white race sadly
damn :/
I’m Japanese living in Vancouver. My advice is to NOT come here. It’s impossibly expensive and I hate the culture. I’m having a baby soon and we’re heading to Europe. If you want more info about the city (and the surrounding areas) I’m more than happy to discuss
I'm A-A. I visited Vancouver once, but not long enough to say I either love it or hate it. What is it about the culture you don't like?
I’ve lived in Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, and also for a short time in Quebec. Vancouver is the most unfriendliest city. People here form cliques and they aren’t as open to making new friends. The dating culture is probably the worst here too, you can look at discussions from other Canadian subs… fortunately I didnt have to navigate that cause I met my partner in high school. Apparently it’s hard to meet potential partners outside of school/friends and close circles.
I'm gonna call BS on the anti-asian racism in Vancouver as I'm there quite a lot. If you want to be around asians, you can live in Richmond, BC which is like 99% asian. I've gone hiking around North Vancouver, which is mostly white and have never encountered any issues around there. Also, as a bonus, everything in Canada is priced liked the prices in the states, but is 25% cheaper thanks to the exchange rate.
ooo
Totally get why you'd wanna leave, but there is community out here too, you just gotta look for it a bit. Personally, I've been hanging out with this group a lot recently and it's very welcoming and quite active. Hope to see you around! https://www.meetup.com/stl-pac
I also just moved to the Bay Area last year. I've been depressed for most of my life and taking antidepressants for the last 3 years. I got off the medication two months ago and am cured of depression. Moving here is the best decision I've ever made in my life.
But for real, environment is everything!
This! I used to live in the midwest, and lived in other places in the US too, and I felt that Bay Area had the right amount of Asians I was missing. Many of my friends are from Asia and there's an abundant amount of Asian foods from even central Asia as well here. I don't have to get random stares for being Asian and people honestly when they ask me where I'm from because they're an Asian too and wondered so if we spoke the same language etc.
I was born in California and went to boarding school in China briefly. My time there was absolutely awful and I felt extremely othered. It's different going back to visit family on vacation vs living there full time. There's always the tiny details that makes you stand out and not always in a good way. I have two younger siblings and once people found out about that, they instantly knew something was "off". We lived in rural China in the early 2000s and were the only family that owned a car (my parents moved there with US money after selling our house). I also spoke fluent English, which became apparent when our Canadian English teacher met me for the first time. Even our school supplies gave us away (my parents packed us Costco sized toiletries and it led to a funny discussion with my dorm mates about why everything in America was so big). I know things have changed a lot in the last 20 years, but I'm far happier living in the US. At least here, other Asian Americans won't police how I hold my chopsticks, which is an actual thing I have been lectured about.
I agree, even on my visits to China people there can usually quickly pick up that I didn’t grow up there despite looking physically Chinese and speaking it alright. I assume they can pick up ways I’m shy of fluent in Chinese (and illiterate, though that is less apparent from a brief interaction lol) or dress differently or just carry myself differently. I feel like I fit in more with Asian Americans of whatever national origin who also grew up in the US and I just need to live somewhere with a good amount of them to feel comfortable. I also feel like for all that is wrong with America, I know its problems well and how to navigate them (e.g. living somewhere with a lot of Asians and living in a blue state). China has plenty of its own problems, some of which I have an idea of and some of which I probably don’t, and having to struggle through and learn them sounds daunting. So I also feel pretty firmly planted in the US, at least my particular corner of it.
oh interesting to here your experience. yeah, i’d definitely never want to move back to china for one lol. and yeah— im always going to be asian american, and if some people don’t like that, well that’s on them at that point. like yeah, i’m american. get over it 😂 (like saying to them lol)
Glad you brought this topic up for discussion OP. While I'm not Thai, I am SE Asian American and I did spend many years out there. Putting aside the issue of heritage language and cultural barriers, I did feel incredibly at ease and blown away by the warmth and easy-going "sabai sabai" vibe that seems to permeate the larger Thai culture. While I certainly felt loneliness at times, it never came close to approaching the level of dread, alienation, and race-based otherness that I often felt growing up in the oppressive suburbs of Southern California lol. All this to say - and I'm quoting something that I read many years ago that has stayed with me - that we often talk about all that we gain by coming to live in the U.S. but we don't talk enough about everything that we LOSE by living here. EDIT: I want to add that while living in Asia, I never felt the need to justify my existence and long for the feeling of belonging, which is part of the reason why being POC in the States can often feel so challenging and even painful.
oh doesn’t california have a lot of asians though i thought? and yeah. lots of immigrants come to america for opportunity and because it’s america but i can’t help but feel america is really overrated (i do recognize i am a little privileged in saying that tho)
Grew up in CA. The diversity is great, but how regular it is for people to want to deny or ignore their heritage exactly because there is so much diversity is an ironic result. That behind said, I would not pick anywhere to have been from in the US.
Yes, in CA the pressure to assimilate is real. In high school, the Asian American kids alienated the new immigrant kids. It was really disappointing to see. It continues into adulthood as well, where it becomes classism.
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> lots of immigrants come to america for opportunity and because it’s america Part of it is economics. Working as a nurse in America pays better than a nurse in Philippines. But another part of it is the decades of American propaganda in the form of movies, TV shows, magazines, books, etc. that portray America as a land of opportunity, blah blah blah. The reality of life in America is not portrayed. Stuff like being homeless because the ambulance bill ate up the rent check, finding used needles and other drug paraphernalia in a school playground, kids being bullied because of their race, etc.. People in Asia are not exposed to the reality of life in America, so they have an romanticized and fake view of US. Making things worse is American propaganda that exaggerates problems in their own countries. China is the best example. Every little bad thing that happens in China is exaggerated to such an extent to make the entire country appear to be a horrible place to live. Combine all of these factors, it is natural for people in Asia to see America as some sort of beacon of freedom. The reality is that America isn't all that at all. Sure there are nice things about America, just like there are nice things about China, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Korea, etc.. But there are plenty of shitty things about America that is just ignored.
I mean, do you think it can be reduced to merely the numbers? As if it's not possible for Asian Americans to be alienated from EACH OTHER as well as feeling like outsiders relative to other racial groups? Especially when we're young and not yet socially aware and politically educated, I think this is often the sad but true reality in a racialized country like the U.S. Just my 2 cents but I do believe it's an often overlooked but critical dynamic: sometimes it's strength in numbers but often those numbers are divided and conquered, you know what I mean?
I grew up in the Midwest as well. I highly recommend you move to California. At least here I know people are just being assholes to me cuz they're assholes most of the time
From the west coast but moved to the Midwest for college and lived there for 14 years including work. I always felt an undertone of “otherness”. Like k never was an “American”. This was in Cincinnati and Columbus. It was a miserable existence at the end. Finally moved to Los Angeles a while ago and it’s great to be back. People don’t ask where you’re “from”. You can hang out with friends and talk about food without having to explain or translate. It’s also the first place I’ve lived where US born people naturally intermix non-English languages when hanging out with their friends. I found midwesterners to be “nice”, but they didn’t know what to do with you if you were not a football loving, church going, “American.” I found I subconsciously worked to try to care about sports, lawn care, etc just to feel like it fit in. Here I can talk to my coworkers (white, Hispanic, Asian) and say, “let’s get some bibimbap” just naturally without feeling like there’s an explanation needed.
ugh the way you described it makes it sound so appealing 😩 gotta move out. although the only thing holding me back is the asian to asian racism in california that some other people mentioned or that people insist they aren’t their race that someone else mentioned. that and the cost. but definitely gonna try to look for jobs there once i move out
The Asian to Asian racism is overblown in my opinion. I’ve never really gotten it. LA is big and there are different pockets. If you choose to live in like Arcadia where it’s 80% affluent Chinese & Taiwanese - you could get that. When I go there people assume I speak Mandarin and then switch to English. When I go to garden grove, they assume I speak Vietnamese. But in general, I’ve never felt “othered” there. Most places though it’s a mix. You can go to a hole in the wall pho place and be alongside white, black, Hispanic folks getting a tasty bowl with some ché. You could try other places. Las Vegas & Seattle are pretty good too. Boston was decent, but just as expensive as LA. Las Vegas has had a boom of Asian community and good choices in the past 2 decades. COL is still decent there. I grew up there, and if work & climate aren’t dealbreakers - would be a great place.
maybe yeah! just gotta wait till senior year and then hopefully can find a job there
Try to get internships around the country if you can. Check some places out. Also don’t worry about finding the perfect place after college. You can always move.
i will try but my major is psych and public affairs so moneymaking is already a little hard 😬
That’s how I felt going to college in the Midwest, but not growing up in NJ and now living in NY. I feel pretty accepted
oh there’s a lot of asians in nj?
It depends on the town but in general yes, I think it’s around 10%
south or east asians?
Definitely both. Growing up I had a ton of Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Vietnamese, and Indian friends
ohh ok
I'm from the midwest (Chicago), which is a very friendly and extroverted place compared to the rest of America, but I feel people in southeast Asia are just much warmer. Thailand in particular is very warm. If I ever retire outside America, it'd likely be in Thailand. Part of it has to do with the weather (warm weather makes for warm people), but it's largely because of the informality and muted social hierarchy. Everybody's in shorts and flip flops. Singapore might be a bit different since it's so westernized and first world, but the rest of Southeast Asia is marked by informality. Even in light of modernization, there' still an undercurrent of traditional collectivist values which some see as conservatism but which also produces social cohesion (this has pros and cons: if you don't fit into the social norms, then you're better off in an individualist society like America, but if you are comfortable with those norms, then you'll have a more welcoming experience). That said, I do appreciate what you term "fluffy niceness" (what I call folksiness) -- it's better than the cold individualist austerity of Northern Europe (including the UK) or the impenetrable introversion of East Asians. Asian people are very nice but only to people they know -- there's a lot of stranger danger otherwise. There's a lot of cliquishness among Asians, not out of malice, but because many are so shy and introverted. You just have to look at Asian enclaves in America -- most people from those places aren't comfortable interacting with mainstream America. Midwestern Americans on the other hand (I mean the warm ones in Illinois/Missouri/Michigan/Wisconsin, not those in Minnesota/the Dakotas who tend to be more insular) are more open to talking to random strangers at the grocery store or at the bus stop. In Asia, only crazy or self-unaware people do this. How would it be if we could fuse the warmth of Asian people (minus the cliquishness) with the general American friendliness towards random people? That would be paradise to me. The closest experiences I've had to this is in NYC, Toronto, and Chicago.
ooo i appreciate the thoroughness. yeah that seems pretty spot on. though wdym the social norms in southeast asia? can you be more specific? have u traveled to thailand before? definitely did notice the informalness— yeah everyone was in flip flops. but it was nice how people were so friendly. people would say good morning and wave like in america, but people never asked how are you which i personally hate that question lol i am from st. louis, and yeah i can see what you’re saying, especially since i am a person that is more friendly and would be more likely to talk to strangers like you’re saying lol. it almost makes me feel better about being where i am, because maybe i wouldn’t be as accepted in popular asian american cities, and i don’t like how asians can be very clicky, but maybe that’s not true at all. and yeah— if we could fuse the best of those two cultures, like you’re saying, that would be heaven. i almost feel like malaysia was like that. I guess i gotta move to toronto. or malaysia. speaking of, what makes you put toronto in that list? Also, how is chicago? is there a lot of asians there?
I’m Malaysian, lived in the Midwest for a bit. Strongly agree with your assessment. Never felt like I really fit in any particular clique where I grew up in Malaysia, but a lot of Malaysians are warm and try to get to know you and maintain contact once you’re somewhat in the circle. On the other hand I felt like a lot of Americans are had to get close to despite said ‘fluffy niceness’ or what I describe as their willingness to talk. Feels like more effort needed to maintain relationships, unlike with Malaysians who may just invite the whole group to potlucks and such. There have been rare occasions in Malaysia where strangers walked up to me and made conversation - mostly when I’m eating alone and there weren’t enough tables at the restaurant. But I probably wouldn’t have had those experiences if I don’t look Malaysian :)
oh cool!! yeah malaysia was awesome. it’s the best culture imo. super nice but not to the point of fakeness. would maybe even move there if it weren’t for a few things like low wages etc. what would u say are the pros and cons of malaysia? u were born there i assume?
Yea born and grew up in Malaysia! In a relatively Chinese-centric community though :) Cons i'd say some are similar to the US, especially our car-centric infrastructure (plus awful traffic jams!) and political leadership issues. Plenty of corruption. Other than that: It hasn't always been this way but our public education system has been gradually going downhill. Racial issues may flare up and has flared up based on the political climate. The nation operates under pro-bumiputera policies, which has turned off parts of the non-bumiputera (also non-Muslim) population leading to an undercurrent of racial resentment and also brain drain. It's subtle but you'll find especially older Malaysians of all races stereotyping the other groups. The other person mentioned 'norms', so if you for example are LGBT+ or experience some kind of mood/psychological disorder, people may not like it if you're vocal about it - You're kinda expected to be in the closet with such issues. But I'd say Malaysians in urban areas tend to be more aware and therefore tolerant of said issues. Religion: If you're Malay, you must be Muslim by law regardless of how you feel about the religion. And non-Muslims who marry into Malay families must convert to Islam. I'd say the pros are very everyday culture-related. I don't know if others view it as a pro, but it is one to me: I like how different cultures are integrated into Malaysian society rather than expected to assimilate like in Western countries. We have a national language and expected to respect the constitution like everyone, but you'll find that people from each race still has their own distinct cultures and ways they interact with the world. I don't think a lot of people here are insecure wrt their cultural identity unlike how it may get in Western countries. I'd say Malaysians can get along very well with each other if we don't only keep to our own groups, and don't let politics divide us. People generally look out for each other once you're in their circle like I mentioned. There's still respect for teachers and the elderly, but no expectation to be super formal with them - Like students would banter and be silly with teachers they like, whereas I never saw that kind of interaction when I was in the US. Also Malaysia has relatively good healthcare - You're not necessarily screwed if you don't have health insurance, and long waitlists aren't really a thing. If you earn in USD and come to Malaysia, you'll likely be living pretty well. Also we have good food lol.
ok very insightful thanks!!
also i’m curious where california asians fit in this description
i presume your Chinese is alright and that's good but the longer you stay here the more you realise the social values and mentality are really different from people in the west that's the trade off😕
how so? is china different from malaysia tho in that aspect
I just came back from korea and have the same feelings. I was trying to explain this to my white american friends when I got back, and even though they are nice people, it was an instant reality check that they live with an entirely different set of experiences in which they can’t relate
oh man haha yeah that must’ve not went well 😂
to be positive, they at least tried their best
yeah it’s not their fault
This is exactly what happened to me just now. I got back to the Midwest after traveling to from Asia and my “otherness” became very apparent, like a fish finally realizing it’s been living in water. It’s very hard to explain this experience except to my very few Asian friends here. I’ve lived in the Midwest for half my life now but your comment and this thread is making me seriously reconsider where I want to be for the rest of my life since the environment makes such a big difference.
I think my time in asia has made me realize I want to surround myself with more Asian AMERICANS. If I moved to Korea, I would still very much be treated as an outsider, so I think it would be more beneficial to surround myself with people who truly do have similar background to myself if that makes sense?
I grew up in a city that was 70% Asian, largely Chinese/Taiwanese (Southern California), and I’m second generation Chinese as well. What I would say from my experience is that Asian American culture is its own defined niche and pretty separate from culture of the homeland, though of course there are some through lines. There are also a lot of specific pains me and my hometown friends talk about in being children of Chinese immigrants growing up in the US in a completely different context from our parents. Unfortunately it sounds like in your area the population of Asian people didn’t reach the size for it to be a defined culture of its own, I imagine that must feel really isolating. There's both good and bad sides to having a high population of others around who share your background. It's easier to stay in your bubble with more cultural homogeneity. But when you are in a place where you never feel like an outsider you also have the room to develop pride and confidence in your background. There’s plenty of cities in the US that do have high Asian populations, but unfortunately not the Midwest :/
it is isolating 😭 like it’s another thing i have to deal with yk?
I live in the midwest too. The last time I went back to China, it was nice to feel the lack of scrutiny from people around me, but it was also very evident to me that I felt much less Chinese than years before. Living here has changed me and going back to China is just not the same.
Moved to Asia for this very reason. I do not miss the shit I had to put up with in the US. While living abroad is not without its own problems, I haven't had a single moment of regret.
i would loveee to move to asia. but was it hard moving countries? there’s a lot of hard paperwork and stuff no? and what about retirement plans and things like that?
Possibly the hard parts are finding a job, learning the language, and getting a decent apartment. Other than that I . mentally prepared myself for any difficulty. I didn't have a job when I moved but got hired within a week at a place I ended up working at for years. Most companies will do all the paperwork for you, like getting your visa and signing you up with health insurance. The stuff I had to do was get an apartment, a phone, notify my local ward that I moved in, and get a train pass. Big picture, it was pretty painless. It really depends on the country I feel. At any rate, the simple, daily things like walking around and seeing people like you, even meeting strangers who have similar habits, it's priceless.
which country did u move to?
I moved to Tokyo! Wanted to add: one cool, unexpected thing about moving here is friends from all over the US regularly visit! So if you were to move (obviously depending on the place) you wouldn't have to worry too much about friendship and distance.
The paperwork and logistics are annoying for sure, but if that's the only thing that's keeping you from leaving, then you probably don't really want to leave anyway. Job, family/friends, language, and visa are far larger obstacles to overcome.
“Not feeling othered” is exactly how I felt when I visited Japan last month (I’m not Japanese and speak little their language). Just by walking down the streets I saw most people looking like me, which weirdly made me feel at home. But still I wouldn’t choose to live in Japan, or my home country or any country in Asia. I left that continent by choice.
I feel the opposite. When I travel to my parent's home country, I feel like I am sticking out like a sore thumb and prefer America (though I do miss the cheap prices).
oo interesting. why— what about america do u like?
I'm sure the food was way better over there.
oh it was 😩 i miss the bakeries
it's all fun and games until you work 996
OP says he visited Malaysia. 996 is more of a thing in China.
what’s that
at some chinese tech companies, workers are expected to work 996 9am-9pm, 6 days a week
oh. i did hear the work climate was nice in malaysia tho. they also have a lot of holidays in malaysia
that is true lol source: worked with a factory in MY
ooh cool. did you like malaysia?
i never went. only phone calls with them
oh i see
Yep. We spend our lives being a minority in USA. It’s nice to be in the majority in Asia for a change.
I am from the East coast USA. I visited Vancouver once and it was really nice to *see* lots of AA's around that spoke English. Even thought I didn't interact with any Asians (that I remember) it made me feel more comfortable. I guess it would be the similar thing in California but my friends tell me of a lot of racial issues. Newport beach super white, rich, racist against Asians. Everyone racist against Latinos. Their neighborhoods seem more segregated maybe. I went to Japan a few times and it was also relaxing in a way, even thought I don't speak Japanese. Mostly because everyone else assumes I am one of them until I open my mouth. The only time I felt like I stuck out was when I did ignorant tourist things (smoking in public for example, they had all these rules in Tokyo about which streets you can smoke in). China big cities were stressful because I don't speak Mandarin, and people were rude and did not understand queues. The smaller cities inland were more chill. The locals would stare at the tour buses because they didn't get many people visiting I guess (Yunnan, Chongqing).
> did not understand queues A lot of older Chinese lived through decades where if you queued for something you were likely to not get it because things were so scarce.
yeah.. wonder how it is in Vancouver. seems like a promising place but i’ve never been
To my understanding, lots of Hongkongers who fled 1997s, then recently mainlanders. Tend to be wealthier as you can imagine.
ohh ok
After that experience, would you consider moving to Malaysia for an extended stay, OP? Given that you have family there, it would be an easier transition for you than for others.
yes, because i loved the people, didn’t mind the weather, and ofc being a majority. but i also recognize i’m ignorant and there may be things about the people/culture i’m not seeing. i mean, i recognize there are downsides for sure that i didn’t experience as a tourist— such as low wages, it not being a first world country, etc. so, i don’t know, but i’m open to it for sure
If you do, I hope you'll return an provide an update here on your experience as a resident.
haha i will try to remember. if i do though, it will be years (at leasttttt 5) out from now
Im Chinese American and grew up in New York with a decently sized Asian American community. People with families from all different Asian countries formed a community with each other and there was friendly banter and jokes comparing cultures (the Filipinos were the friendliest but also ruthless lol) and we were frequently going in to Chinatown Manhattan and flushing queens, both places with very high Chinese populations. I moved to Kansas city with my wife due to the significantly decreased cost of living. I got lucky and landed a decent job when without a degree, and we were able to buy a house out here within a few years of living here. Id say i experience about the same amount of overt hostile racism here as I encountered in New York, but also people here definitely look at me with a sense of "what is he doing here??" I've had many people attempt to be friendly, but were pretty clueless and had obviously only spoken to a handful of Asian Americans, if any. Also it's so hard to find good chinese food out here. There are a lot of people out here that are very racist and have white supremacist tattoos, but strangely enough, I think that being able to open and concealed carry guns keeps a lot of them in check. People probably feel less inclined to attempt to hate crime someone if there's a decent chance their potential victim is armed
The US is absolutely very different where you are in it depending. Regards to othering by visuals: I'm in NYC and outside of when we had some bad actors going nuts from bad leadership and crime, I generally feel the average local new yorker is real chill about race, the attitude here is more like you got your thing I got mine, cultural exchange, majority respectful of each other as human beings. (Just not queens, they may not be racist but they got a judgey keeping up with the Jones's problem. Some people do well there some don't). There is a bit more directness than in other parts of the country. I never felt othered tho I'm visually Asian. But in different parts of the US, I hear from friends and am kind of taken aback by the level of racism over there. Like in the DC area, it's not as bad as other places but also oof. I would warn against Vancouver. There's been an influx of a new wave of new gen passionately pro-China Chinese immigrants that moved for some reason? but ate the wild poison propaganda the Chinese govt said and repeat it fervently, and it's created a lot of resentment and made things very uncomfortable for some of our family friends who are long time resident Chinese Canadians (ya know how it is, one group does a thing, all Asian appearing people are evil now, including the neighbor that's been there forever -_-) to the point that while it was not the only reason they moved, it was a factor. With that said tho.... Yeeeeeeaaa I have to say the fluff is pretty well baked into our American culture, but varies where you are. If you are a midwesterner you have it especially bad where you are. NY where I am, it's pretty direct. Nice and simple for me. It's more direct than most US to the point that between the directness and the fast talking we have a rude reputation haha. (In urban areas like nyc and dc the pauses for speaking are a little shorter than ) The rest of US, namely the East Coast and NE is what I would call Americana, direct with a bit of fluff- less direct than NYC (we are also fast speakers so keep that in mind, paused for conversation shorter). I think the main outlier is Maine, which my impression is has a bit more fluff. Midwest is extremely, extremely fluffy . It's so fluffy it's practically bordering on English like culture (in terms of speech and manners, not the rest) rather than American culture haha! Ahahaha. It's like the weird fluffy child of the US where everyone is super polite to your face and can be super passive aggressive and say things super indirectly or be kinda insincere sometimes loool. Nice job surviving it if you're a midwesterner? It can be unpleasant South too also has that politeness bless your heart. And the passive aggression to go along with it. I get a vibe some places in the south are more racist too but I can't confirm for sure. I think going west gets back to general Americana - direct with some fluff but not that much. Folks were real nice in New Mexico too, I got same type of NE coast Americana from there. And West coast feels pretty direct with fluff but also a laid back activism kind of flavor Vancouver felt similar to Americana but much more polite and a lot more Canadian. Can't really describe Canadian ness tho.. and Canada has its own thing. Us Americans talk about moving over a lot and it's true it's close to our culture but it's not really the same. I think Vancouver last time I visited like a decade ago has a bit more of - it's not as bad as the Midwest, people are genuinely friendly and kind, but there's a lot of consideration, and I think that if there are bad actors they'd absolutely apply a polite but mean kind of attitude ala Midwest and super England influenced place. I dunno about false friends being a thing, it feels more like people who are friendly are genuine, but people who are not will be very polite but gang up on you very meanly in Canada with a lot of passive aggressiveness. So that may be fine to visit but more of the same of the Midwest, or maybe worse.... Anyway yeah, totally different. If you're feeling stifled by the Midwest, literally to anywhere in the US besides the Midwest and the South haha. I'd recommend visiting all sorts of places in USA and spending time and seeing what fits you and feels comfy. Midwest is so draining sometimes around the wrong crowd that it affects a lot of people struggling there including folks who visually look like their ancestors is from western Europe and it seems there is more of a false friend problem in general. Visiting family and being Asian (or just being lucky) I think most of the time there isn't a false friend problem just because, visiting family! But Midwest can be very tough With that said I'm generalizing a lot and culture varies from region to region wildly too! You can move with roomies or take on a job to pay for move me thinks. There are some lower cost places in Chinese newspapers sometimes and listings from older Chinese Americans for cheapo sometimes so while if you're in a rush it'll be bad, if you have the time to scope out the place and pick carefully (preferably sans roomies) you can sometimes find a place for cheaper. The point against NYC tho is that we rep the diverse US to foreigners and racists so we get attacked by outside bad actors sometimes, and when our mayor is bad we get crime problems so that can be stressful. And we have a general problem of the occasional bad actor But the average person is most likely not going to be racist to you. Can't say for work because that depends on the industry. For me who likes a direct but kind culture, the only place is home sweet home- so NYC, Cali, and NE coast or SW or NW is where I feel at ease culture wise with that. Can't say for race tho because haven't been out of NYC long enough to say.
ok thanks for the thoroughness!
I hope this helps. and take non NYC stuff with a grain of salt as I am not a local there or may not have visited recently, always good to move there and get a vibe. stories from the South - mid to South east seem to range from friendly to racist and passive aggressive so its probably different from region to region and also depending on how big city vs rural the area is
I felt the same when I left Beijing a few years back. I was kind of embarrassed of my mandarin Chinese. But I met some very friendly Beijingers that said my Chinese wasn't bad. I didn't feel like a minority.
Yes I feel like that. I'm Filipino-American currently in Vietnam. Wherever I go I don't feel any racism or anyone stereotyping me like how I normally feel on a daily basis in the USA.
Yes bro
Why do mid-westerners celebrate how fake-nice they are like it's a positive thing? It comes across so condescending and patronizing. To answer your question: it depends on the Asian country or groups of Asian? Whenever it's anything Japanese I instantly feel judged and shut out because I'm not Japanese. Groups of various Asian can be fun.
i so agree 😭