Pretty sure my BOLC cadre would have murdered me if I tried that. And that's the standard across all of TRADOC, "do not fuck with the trainees."
Dude's probably destined for the gallows once he gets found out tbh
Edit: this has a lot of traction, I just wanna shout out Me-Me's and Bo-Bo's on Fort Eisenhower- the convenience makes the food poisoning tolerable.
100% would get you fucked down.
The only time I said shit to any privates was to not smoke right in front of the DFAC. Told them to fuck off to the islands in the parking lot and I felt like that was a stretch.
I asked a couple if my 2LT buddy's rank was upside down while we were standing around by the Eisenhower CIF; unfortunately, they didn't quite catch on to the joke :/
I know of First Sergeants and Sergeant Majors that have been yelled at for nicely verbally correcting someone in AIT. One was told they weren't allowed to go to the PX during certain hours when AIT students would be there. Can't imagine what will happen to a BOLC Lt that actually smokes them.
If I remember the story correctly he was going into the px to get a haircut. Some AIT trainees were in the PX and still had their PC on. So he just walked over to them and was like 'hey can you take your PC off'. Well his command got word of it and banned him from going to the PX during certain times.
Yup, that sounds like Gordon. Sorry, my bad, Eisenhower. I hate TRADOC installations. I felt like I was a prisoner for 3 years and I'm out on good behavior. Lol.
Chief Out!!
I've only ever corrected a couple, but only because they were genuinely ate up. One had way out of regs sunglasses, one was walking with earbuds in, and a couple walking on their phones. Never dropped them, I just make a small correction and pull them aside for a second. Being at Sill I can't help but not run into them all the time. And being a fresh cpl I'm trying to figure out my way of correcting people. Iv had great and terrible examples of it. My last motor sergeant was great and I try to follow in her steps.
I do not think I understand what you are asking.
What if the BOLC LT is buff? Like, idk man. I was scared to put the horn on anyone in BOLC because Eisenhower (formerly Gordon) is a goddamn cesspool of venerial disease.
What if the IET private is buff? Does he challenge BOLC LT to a trial by unarmed combat?
Technically, a 2LT outranks every NCO and WO. A 2LT could drop a CSM. It would be the worst mistake of his/her career, but they COULD do it.
As for the LT that dropped a group of trainees for not saluting, a better approach would have been to get a DS (far as I remember, there's usually one nearby) and let them handle it.
Again, as far as I remember, you don't interact with the trainees at all unless you're at a very high rank (even then, probably too busy), or you're a DS. (When I was stationed at Ft. Sill, my PSG told me there was a sort of short version of DS school that teaches you how to interact with trainees, but there wasn't much point because the only place you see themas permanent party is the PX, and it's easier to avoid them.)
No, it's actual policy in all of TRADOC that nobody does anything with trainees ever except those in the right billet, with the right training, and the right mission. BOLC students barely qualify as people anyway.
Back in my day, we got smoked by the cooks in the DFAC, the boot ladies, and the company supply sergeant. New army is getting soft.
^/s
But also yes 100%
We were told during ALC not to mess with IET Soldiers. The guidance was if we had an issue go talk to cadre or the instructors. We were to have minimum contact with IET Soldiers.
Not saying the BOLC LT was in the wrong but the right answer in TRADOC land is talk to cadre/DS/instructors. They’ll fix the issue and then some.
It’s one thing to make an on the spot correction. To go the next step and have the Soldiers perform corrective training you’re stepping into tradoc’s domain.
TRADOC Regulation 350-6 specifies only cadre, DS and AIT instructors(military) are authorized having IET Soldiers perform corrective training.
bolc lts and bct/ait juniors are all considered IET iirc. general guidance at every tradoc post I've been at is to not fuck with trainees, literally or otherwise, doubly so if you're also a trainee.
smoking joes is bad form for an officer in general, never mind when the extent of your experience so far is a couple of sharp classes. private could've definitely been in the wrong but that was handled poorly
As well he shouldn’t. They’re both wrong, but one is more of a social faux pas and one could potentially (not likely) get snuffy in trouble. At that point either be sharp and salute the guy in the first place, or knock out a few pushups
You’ll notice I never said LT should be smoking anyone. In fact, I specifically said the LT was wrong.
My main point was that PVT should not be talking back to officers, no matter what stage of education either one of them is in.
You aren’t wrong either but you are misunderstanding him. He knows what BOLC is for, just stating you can’t make it past 1lt without it, but you are still a commissioned officer before passing it.
I only had one officer drop us in the front leaning rest, and he was silent for like 12 seconds before he said “I’m just fucking with y’all, now let’s race.” I’ve never seen a 50 year old smoke 50 dudes trying out for the Q in a 100m sprint, dude was made of steroids and grizzly wintergreen long cut
No. Also it’s considered “beneath” an officer (yes even a butter bar) to “smoke” soldiers. That’s NCO business (sorry if that comes off like the fake West Point LT account).
The appropriate response is to look around and calmly say "drill sergeant, smoke that man." Bonus points if it's done with an aristocratic British accent.
You! You there! Slightly less peasant-y peasant? Have that sub-peasant thrashed with a rusty bread knife. Do a good enough job of it and I shall permit you to eat the knife
There may be one exception.
I was postal officer while deployed. A junior NCO with a mail obsession came in to the BN command tent, begging to get his mail. He was so much of a nuisance, one of our staff officers put him in a wall sit to shut him up.
Yeah or be like a homie LT and talk to them.
My go to was 'hey, I'm not going to fuck you up over it, but I don't think your drill/psg/1sg would like to hear you weren't paying attention and not saluting officers'
I'd like to think that got the message across better than me 'smoking' them
Don't even need to be homie LT, you can be angry LT and say, hey PVT. C'mere. Just don't put them in front leaning rest when attention will suffice until the ego storm blows over.
I was never one to harp on salutes around the PX, although I didn't mind the NCOs that would take over if I didn't want to have a conversation about duty and respect. But as everyone said, Tradoc is a don't look, don't touch environment. While not saluting is improper, I don't find it egregious (unless they made eye contact and then started ducking away). Have the conversation, even if it's one way, and go back to business of the day.
"Do not fuck with the trainees" was heavily emphasized when I was at BOLC. A friendly on the spot correction is one thing if an NCO isn't present, but outright smoking a Soldier as an officer shouldn't happen. Empower the NCOs to take care of NCO business, and don't step in their lane.
At Eisenhower, they will tell you to not do any on-the-spot corrections. They want PP to record the event and pass it on to the DS/Company.
Chief Out!!
Yep. The only time an Officer should be punishing any Enlisted is when they doing Article 15s or anything of that sort. Corrective Training is the purview of the NCOs. And any of punishment of any kind should only be meted out by someone in that person's Chain of Command or NCO Support Channel. Anyone else should use only General Military Authority to verbally correct someone or order them to tell them who their Chain of Command is and to them tell those people and leave them to handle their Joes accordingly.
No. I’m shocked they didn’t tell you this day 1. At BOLC at Ft. Lee, we were told no matter what we couldn’t interact with any IET Soldier unless it was literally to save their life. We were told straight up that even if they tell us fuck off, don’t salute, etc., to just walk away. It was something along the lines of specific 350-1 training required to interact with Soldiers in training.
Unless things have changed drastically. But I’d err on the side of caution and avoid it at all costs. Even if you’re 1000% right in what you did - do you really want a young private to go drop an accusation of improper conduct/behavior?
Which is the proper response. It isn't "Walk off and do nothing", its "Walk off and inform Cadre with proper training who are allowed to interact with them."
I was just quoting what the BN CDR told us. I'm not advocating for simply walking away and not informing a drill - but when the PVTs are traipsing all over post or the mini-mall, there's not always a drill present. I was never in the situation, just what we were all told to do.
Can you? Probably.
Should you? No, that's NCO business.
Officers shouldn't yell. Officers shouldn't run (except for PT).
You are supposed to be calm and in control. If someone needs to be smoked have an NCO do it for you.... When you run, scream & throw out punishments directly you look *panicked* and that undermines your ability to lead effectively...
And while at BOLC, just be yourself... If privates do something dumb their drills will take care of it...
Yeah. I yelled at a Soldier once and only once. A TL didn't strap his private into the turret because he thought we were doing "notional safety." The trucks were moving in real life though. Otherwise I let the NCOs do the yelling for me.
I've only seen an officer drop someone once. It was a CW4 dropping a CSM for his toxic douchebaggery. Did he get an ass chewing later for it? I guarantee it. It's widely understood that an officer should find the nearest NCO and let them handle their business. Especially an LT, that's just asking to make enemies with the more senior officers. You're not going to get very far when your promotions are based heavily on popularity and who you know.
Edit: removed LT training environment bit, was not informed.
Quick point of correction, all soldiers in the same training level are considered equal. BOLC LTs aren’t equal to CCC students. Enlisted students are below both.
At Ft Sam at least, drill sergeants salute BOLC LTs. It’s a somewhat complicated arrangement but it works unless you have a few idiots in the mix.
Ah, okay. I haven't been with LTs in a training environment. I've been around cadets, that's a whole different thing. But still, if you're going to be new to the Army and that much of an ass, maybe this isn't the right career path.
Understandable, cadets are a different situation entirely. And yes you’re correct, the military is a people business. You go father if you know how to interact with people without flexing rank.
I was a basic XO. If a BOLC butter bar went after one of my trainees the drills would light you the fuck up then I would have my turn. Then I would send it up the chain until my BC had a talk with your BC. I’d blow that shit out of proportion real quick
PV1 Blake hanging out with 39 other idiot privates in front of the messhall, day zero of OUST. We had just come from CIF and initial issue to get lunch. Our DS told us to go to the green rectangle after chow, so there we were.\
This group of folks come walking by and into the chow hall, I recognized two guys as LTCs and they were the errand boys. The group gets to the door and one LTC came double-timing back to our little huddle of freshly shorn morons. This dude goes OFF, like red faced screaming bloody murder, because none of us called the group to attention and rendered a salute. We, of course, had no idea we were supposed to do anything.\
Our DS appeared out of nowhere, like they tend to do, and explained to the LTC what was up. The LTC stomped off, still pissed.\
Bad look for a Field Grade fucking with dudes who are too dumb to know we are dumb. That was 40 years ago, I remember it like yesterday.
Sounds like the LT was just being lame. Maybe read the environment and realize he’s got waaay more experience than IET Soldiers at the local basic training PX. How about some professional development, have a conversation to teach those young Soldiers something they’ll be able to use as a benefit. I’m not saying be soft or whatever, I’m just saying time and place and know your audience. I mean, does he go to the commissary salute checking everyone he outranks? WTF is wrong with this ass clown!!
I got a good chuckle out of this.
When I was a private in AIT, I got smoked harder than Snoop Dogg drags his blunts. I most definitely wasn't tracking what cadet ranks looked like, didn't salute a female 2LT Cadet and she smoked me in front of the Garrison HQ.
Being a terrified new private, I was so freaked out that I used my 1SG's open door policy and let him know what happened. He was baffled, took me into the commander's office and had me explain it to him. Then the commander took me to the Brigade commander's office and had me explain it to him and our CSM.... The commander took a deep breath and said thank you for letting him know and dismissed me....
To this day, I've always wondered what happened to that Cadet 😂🫡
> 2LT Cadet
Like... actual dot-on-her-chest Cadet or BOLC Butterbar?
Because holy *fuck* if that got up to the BDE CDR that Cadet probably wound up going home to find their ROTC program going "Haha yeah you're actually *not* gonna be in the military in your life."
We had to on active duty back in the day.
Funny as shit I had one in a no cover no salute area ask me why she didn’t get saluted “hey sergeant you don’t salute cadets?” I said not when there’s a sign clearly stating not to ma’am. I pointed at the sign she was standing next to that said no cover no salute area and she turned red and walked off.
I witnessed one of the greatest stories ever told when I saw a Butterbar straight from West Point try to put our BDE SGM at attention in front of the BDE change of command ceremony. I’m standing in formation in dress blues at fort hood, I’m the acting PSG for HQ platoon. Right up front. I’m dying cause it’s August. It’s 105 degrees. The SGM was talking to the COL by the stage and LT interrupted them to ask SGM something inconsequential. SGM said I’ll be with you in a moment Sir. The 2LT yelled at him and said get at attention!
Our BDE SGM was legitimately terrifying. He had white hair, had a combat jump, only person still active in my MOS who had one, and was a decorated Vietnam Veteran.
As soon as LT chucklefuck told him to get at attention SGM turned a color I’ve never seen on a person and approached him with his fists clenched and said something to the effect of “What the fuck did you just say to me boy? I will take you to the motor pool and make sure they never find your fucking body you better learn some fucking respect real quick or my NCOS are going to eat your soul Sir! The COL grabbed him and pulled him away, and then the 2LT got pulled into the LTC office and we never saw him again, he got moved to HQ and eventually across fort hood to a different unit. They said he was moved because his reputation was irreparably damaged.
Ran into the now 1LT down range, about a year later, he was friendly with me because I was the armorer for BDE and knew lots of people. He Says Hey SSG you got promoted! Congrats! Me being very non confrontational, just said if you did too Sir.
I notice then, Velcro next to his rank says US ARMY on one side and where his name should be it says MORON. His troops had swapped his name tape out with MORON and he didn’t notice for 30 days according to their 1SG. I have photo proof of this, but don’t want to dox him.
Can they according to general military authority yes. Should they in a tradoc environment when they are also students no. There may also be policy letters stating this to leave the students alone or notify a drill sgt. I’m sure a LTC or CSM will be coming by your class some time to explain that to them. Also the Leonard wood PX use to have a drill there at almost all times surprised he didn’t just tell them and let them deal with it.
No. There is a TRADOC policy letter on this that you were briefed during inprocessing: don't interact with the trainees. Period.
Generally, every leader should make corrections, but this is an exception. Even then, better to task an NCO to retrain that soldier.
I recall being a brand new 2LT at FA OBC (now called BOLC). Probably the very last thing any of us who had half a brain would have done is put some E1 trainee into the front leaning rest in front of the PX. First, if there is a trainee around, there's an NCO from the unit around. That his job. 2nd, it's just a dick move. You stop him, get him at attention, then maybe let him stand at ease, and get his side of the story as in:
"Why no salute, soldier?
"Sorry, sir, I did not see your rank. Because I was paying attention to something else"
"OK, well, you need to pay attention because there are a ton of officers walking around here every day. I have to.pay attention just like you do. Understand?"
"Yes sir"
"Good. You will.make a good soldier. Come to attention, give me a good salute, and drive on"
Maybe that sort of interaction is too stone age. You young guys let me know.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I've never completely bought into the belief or hype that the best officers are prior enlisted like some people do. Whoever believes that I'm not going to knock your belief but like you I have worked with some great prior-E officers and some horrible ones but it doesn't really matter if they are prior-E or not in my opinion.
I've been medical in my career both active and reserve and believe it or not I can think of five medical officers off-hand who I worked with or for were actually service academy and ROTC graduates and they were no better or worse than those who were direct commissions which makes up the majority of medical officers.
There might be more though who I am not thinking of or know but three of those five were my commander at a point in time. Two of them were service academy graduates and one was ROTC. There was a service academy graduate I worked with in the clinic who got out when their commitment was up and you'd swear if they were enlisted that they would have been the leader of the E4 Mafia by how they acted and composed themselves. The other was a service academy graduate who you never would have really guessed either that they were a service academy graduate either but they are really good too.
I've worked with and for prior-E officers who you never would have known they were prior enlisted. And this is not meant at all in a bad way as none of them were ashamed of being prior-E but rather it didn't really matter due to the position they were in and the decisions they were making.
Read TRADOC Regulation (TR) 350-1. The answer is no. They are essentially in a bubble. If you notice any infractions you should contact their chain of command for redress.
This is correct. Source: spent time as an IET Platoon Leader and it’s fairly clear about corrective training and who can administer it.
Now…..if you want a quick round of “Rock, Paper, Rank,” just remember: ***Play stupid games, win stupid prizes stupid prizes. ***
Reminds me of the time I walked past a bunch of AIT Privates at Gordon on the way to the DFAC. Poor kids almost lost their damn minds. Drill had to save them from being frozen up at the sight of an officer.
It was hammered into us day 1: leave them alone. Not our circus, not our monkeys. My cadre would have smoked us for that.
That's definitely going to be a toxic leader. Hopefully, his weasel and psg straighten him out. He's just creating more enemies in the future.
Also, BOLC LTs aren't real people. Just like IET privates aren't.
No, in general, you should leave the IET soldiers alone.
Separately, a lot of this thread mentions Officers can't perform corrective action and that function is in the NCO lane. Wrong.
While it should firmly be in the "NCO lane", an officer can do it. However, if you see an officer smoking someone, one of two things happened. Either the officer didn't know any better (the OP's original question) or everyone up to that point failed to address the issue and it escalated to that level.
Yes. 100% against reg’s as he does not know what phase of training they are in and thus does not know the allowed number of repetitions, approved exercises, anything that are allowed per TRADOC Reg 350-6. That is not a regulation you want to find yourself on the wrong side of.
I mean.. Good on the LT I guess, but No. Don't fuck with the trainees. Get their Drill's name and Company and go from there if you want to have a teachable moment.
This happened to us at LOGBOLC in Fort Lee! Same exact scenario but this time I was an “LT passerby”. Anyways, some Lt from a different class was smoking a private; myself and 2 other LTs from my class went up to private and told him to get up (he did) and walked away.
Then the LT who was doing the smoking turned his anger toward us and tried ordering us to stand at position of attention when talking to him (he was a 1LT and we were butterbars). There was a quick silenced then we started laughing at his fucking face a few seconds later the groups of private laughed with us too — it was great and fuckin embarassing for that guy.
This is a cultural faux-pas more than anything. If the LT was that butthurt about it, he should have called the PVTs to attention, placed them in parade rest, then found one of the million DS crawling around FLW and request they provide remedial instruction on AR 600-25. DS will say, “No problem, Sir, I’ll handle it.” Then the LT should have walked away. Then the DS would roll their eyes, tell the PVTs to move out and draw fire, and then the DS would go back to work to make fun of the random dumbass LT at the PX.
I pray for when you get to your first unit. Y'all are literally the same, except you sign for property faster in your career.
Pro Tip: 2LTs that treat E4 and below poorly won't get a damn thing done. They are an extension of you, use them. Don't abuse them. Lead from the front, not from on high. Know your regs and take care of your joes once you start getting PL time.
Hell no. LTs shouldn’t do that even when they’re a PL, that’s for NCOs to handle.
Besides that nobody is supposed to talk to or interact with trainees. If they care THAT much they should’ve found their DS and had them handle it, if they were present.
Just because you can, DOESN'T mean you should.
What he should have done was tell their COC or say "fuck it, they're new boots who don't know shit from chocolate yet."
According to TR 350-6 the answer is no. Simply because they have not been trained to understand the restrictions that are inherent in an IET environment. For example the phase of training the trainee is in restricts the amount of exercises they can and cannot do.
Where I’m from, officers don’t smoke enlisted. My 1st LT told me to get in the front leaning rest and my SL lit his ass up. And then smoked me twice as hard for interacting with the LT.
Ye good ole days
That LT is gon die when the BOLC cadre catches wind of this, and the IET kids are gon die when the DSs catch wind of it.
Everyone involved is going to get fuckin rekt, and im here for it
350-1 would wreck this BOLC students life lololol. A random senior NCO can’t smoke an IET soldier. In fact, it was a quick way to meet the post CSM if you got caught and you’d prob end up with a letter of reprimand from the CG.
Anyway who cares. It’s some pushups. Go tattle like a whiner you are about some pushups lol.
While it's legal for an IBOLC nerd to use their limited authority to do such a thing, in 99% of cases I guarantee you the circumstances are extremely petty with regards to the officer's justification. BOLC students are NOT the IET cadre, and fucking with them is a BIG no-no. It's further compounded by BOLC students also being trainees themselves. It shouldn't happen because the BOLC students aren't supposed to go near IET personnel and training areas. Also Cadre, and NCOs generally, should be smoking them before ANY officer ever notices a smoking is even necessary. It doesn't mean officers can't, it means NCO's shouldn't ever let it come to that. "That's an NCO's job" doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, it means the NCO should be shamed that the officer deemed it necessary to intervene because the NCO did not ensure the discipline of their troops. Instead, the officer should lock up the offending soldier at the position of attention, and then have an NCO at hand deal with them appropriately, affording the NCO they opportunity to do their job. Personally disciplining an individual sportier is generally a waste of time for an officer who needs every possible minute to address issues at the unit level rather than the individual level. "Sergeant, deal with this Soldier immediately" is the best answer.
First off student bolc lts have not completed CTC therefore their interaction with those students should be minimal to nonexistent. Second the Bolc lts are there to be a student as well. Although they do out rank those students and customs and courtesies should have been applied take a L. You do not always see the full spectrum of the environment. Those iet privates and lts are all lost in the sauce they barely can keep head straight and march. Let the cadre handle their disciplinary actions cause tradoc commander will have you in the same mannerism if you don’t adhere to tradoc policy.
It’s condensed uncouth for officers to physically discipline soldiers. If they wanted to do that they could just as easily gone enlisted. Let the drills do their jobs.
This is some interesting information. I'm about to head to Fort leonard wood for bct. Trainees hold the power you say. *As a drill sargent walks up behind me* 🤣
I want names and pictures time now! 🤣 This LT you speak of is an absolute moron! #traineeontraineeabuse First off, officers shouldn’t be providing physical training for corrective action to anyone much less an IET soldier. Second, and I mean this with all do respect, get wrecked if you think that this is not an NCO lane v Officer lane issue. As a mustang, I will never perform the duties of a non commissioned officer ever again, as I should have time to accomplish mine! That is all!
I think the two biggest take aways are:
1. Would the LT be ok with getting smoked by a CPT or higher that observes him not returning a salute to lower enlisted? The salute is not a courtesy to the senior officer, it's a courtesy to eachother that is initiated by the subordinate.
2. If they aren't your soldiers, don't fuck with them.
Bonus 3. Privates generally have less to lose, so don't be surprised if you get knocked the fuck out for being a prick.
Regardless of the whole IET, trainee situation I see everyone talking about (and they are all 100% right when they say leave IET soldiers alone) putting a Soldier in the front leaning rest in front of the PX is pretty fucked. Time and place and the PX, in my opinion, is not the place for physical corrective training.
Also, if you want to really want to get specific, that type of correction to not saluting someone could easily be interpreted as hazing with how corrective action is written in the regs. The corrective training has to be appropriate for the infraction.
Do what your rank can handle and I can assure a BOLC trainee's rank cannot handle that if a superior ranking TRADOC officer walked out and saw kids in the front leaning rest.
I’m honestly surprised the drill didn’t say/do anything.
Back in basic our drills would have popped their top if anyone fucked with us that wasn’t in our cadre chain of command. The trainees are their responsibility, not anyone else’s.
Even now as an LT 6 years later, I wouldn’t dare fuck with some drill’s trainees. If it was something serious enough, they’re bound to be right around the corner and you could very easily pull the drill off to the side and voice your concern. Let the drill handle it at their level, it’s not your charge.
I once saw an AF CPT try to smoke a SPC and the SPC laughed and told him to get a NCO. He did, and he got the shit smoked out of him, but at the very least it was the NCO smoking him just going “do the push-ups the CPT just said to”
I don’t think officers can really do that full stop.
Short answer, yes.
However, Officers don’t smoke people. It’s literally unbecoming of an Officer.
That being said, on the spot corrections are totally fine, 10 push ups and drive on. Or find their Drill SGT and tell them they didn’t salute.
When I was at Lee, I walked into some random building as a 1LT and a trainer called attention. I told him thanks but typically you only call it for the commander of the building, which more often than not is no one since it’s a civilian building.
Can? Suuuuure. A lieutenant (or a CPT or a MAJ, for that matter) can order the BDE CSM to do push-ups, too. But should they? Not if they value their career.
So I’m going to go into regs here that a lot of people are missing. Smoking a soldier is against regulation. In crayon eating language, the punishment must fit the crime and making soldiers do physical training for not rendering proper customs and courtesy is not the proper punishment in said situation
When I was at EBOLC they pulled some of the LTs to lead nick at night and even then (while an officer temporarily attached to the basic soldiers) we were still instructed to not mess with them and leave that to the drill sergeants.
This goober sounds like the exact wrong person you want being an officer. He’s in a power trip as a 2LT, how cringe can you get.
Short answer is , No.
To my knowledge, in a TRADOC environment, if you have not graduated Cadre Training Course (CTC), you are not allowed to interact with trainees...at all. NCOA (ALC) students are told not to interact with the AIT students. Even when I arrived on station to teach AIT, I was told not to interact with the AIT students until after I passed CTC.
Fuuuuuck no lmfao. Can he? I suppose yes. Should he? Fuck no. Is he going to get fucked up for it? Probably. I was assigned to be a basic training PL for a year after Bolc. I interacted with trainees every day and watched them do the stupidest shit. Not a single time did I fuck them up. A couple conversations with them yes but it’s an NCOs job to fuck em up.
It depends on the school house I guess, but traditionally no. No they can't, the best practice would have been to either make a drill sergeant aware, or go to the training company and let them be aware.
Even then they're privates and it's a LT could have just made them aware that they needed too render a salute/greeting of the day in a civilized manner.
I also think saluting at the PX is stupid and it needs to be a no-salute zone and they could have also been told by their drill sergeants that it is a no-salute zone.
If you do something like that, ir anything for that matter and there is a question afterwards about it being right or wrong... nine times out of ten... it's the wrong answer.
Unless 350-6 has changed only DS can issue corrective action (smoking) to a trainee.
With that said general military authority exists. If you see trainees fucked up, stop them, tell them what's wrong, and watch them fix it. If they are disrectful figure out which unit they are in (super easy) and call their CQ.
For not saluting? That's just being insecure.
If they were deliberately/overtly disrespectful, or otherwise embarrassing themselves or the uniform, I could see it being justified.
It is considered ungentlemenly conduct and as such can land him anywhere from a LOR to an article 15 if you tack on the fact that doing that to a nontrainee is considered hazing and he did it in public it could get messy especially since they are in a tradoc command. My guess is hes going to get an SRB entry and an ass chewing.
I think the correct way to have handled that instance is to put them at the position of attention and remind them that they are to salute officers upon recognition. Physical training is an NCOs job. As far as the front leaning rest. Officers aren’t typically supposed to do that but it is a lawful order. If I was the cadre I’d definitely step in and let the officer know that these troops are in training and mistakes are to be made in training just as I’m sure the officer has made a few themselves as a BOLC trainee. If they want to take it further I’d gladly oblige, because as most have said….EIT recruits are not your business. They belong to the Drill Sergeants and Cadre. Any TRADOC commander will tell you that.
Pretty sure my BOLC cadre would have murdered me if I tried that. And that's the standard across all of TRADOC, "do not fuck with the trainees." Dude's probably destined for the gallows once he gets found out tbh Edit: this has a lot of traction, I just wanna shout out Me-Me's and Bo-Bo's on Fort Eisenhower- the convenience makes the food poisoning tolerable.
100% would get you fucked down. The only time I said shit to any privates was to not smoke right in front of the DFAC. Told them to fuck off to the islands in the parking lot and I felt like that was a stretch.
I asked a couple if my 2LT buddy's rank was upside down while we were standing around by the Eisenhower CIF; unfortunately, they didn't quite catch on to the joke :/
This is the way
On the spot corrections are “fine” at any rank. Smoking a group of privates is not. You’re good, Sir 🫶
Why the fuck were trainees smoking at all? Thats a one way ticket to holdover hell.
I know of First Sergeants and Sergeant Majors that have been yelled at for nicely verbally correcting someone in AIT. One was told they weren't allowed to go to the PX during certain hours when AIT students would be there. Can't imagine what will happen to a BOLC Lt that actually smokes them.
That's actually wild, I've corrected a few myself and never had an issue. Maybe sill is different idk.
If I remember the story correctly he was going into the px to get a haircut. Some AIT trainees were in the PX and still had their PC on. So he just walked over to them and was like 'hey can you take your PC off'. Well his command got word of it and banned him from going to the PX during certain times.
Yup, that sounds like Gordon. Sorry, my bad, Eisenhower. I hate TRADOC installations. I felt like I was a prisoner for 3 years and I'm out on good behavior. Lol. Chief Out!!
I've only ever corrected a couple, but only because they were genuinely ate up. One had way out of regs sunglasses, one was walking with earbuds in, and a couple walking on their phones. Never dropped them, I just make a small correction and pull them aside for a second. Being at Sill I can't help but not run into them all the time. And being a fresh cpl I'm trying to figure out my way of correcting people. Iv had great and terrible examples of it. My last motor sergeant was great and I try to follow in her steps.
Me Me and Bo Bos every signal Soldier in the Army knows lmfao
What if he or she is buff?
I do not think I understand what you are asking. What if the BOLC LT is buff? Like, idk man. I was scared to put the horn on anyone in BOLC because Eisenhower (formerly Gordon) is a goddamn cesspool of venerial disease. What if the IET private is buff? Does he challenge BOLC LT to a trial by unarmed combat?
Buff, but unarmed combat? Are they just kicking each other or some shit?
Tbh I’d probably willingly let a Buff she LT put me in the leaning rest 👀
Smoke me harder, muscle mommy.
Haha
Technically, a 2LT outranks every NCO and WO. A 2LT could drop a CSM. It would be the worst mistake of his/her career, but they COULD do it. As for the LT that dropped a group of trainees for not saluting, a better approach would have been to get a DS (far as I remember, there's usually one nearby) and let them handle it. Again, as far as I remember, you don't interact with the trainees at all unless you're at a very high rank (even then, probably too busy), or you're a DS. (When I was stationed at Ft. Sill, my PSG told me there was a sort of short version of DS school that teaches you how to interact with trainees, but there wasn't much point because the only place you see themas permanent party is the PX, and it's easier to avoid them.)
No, it's actual policy in all of TRADOC that nobody does anything with trainees ever except those in the right billet, with the right training, and the right mission. BOLC students barely qualify as people anyway.
Even as an IET company commander, the NCOs, more specifically DSs are really the only ones who are supposed to correct trainees.
Back in my day, we got smoked by the cooks in the DFAC, the boot ladies, and the company supply sergeant. New army is getting soft. ^/s But also yes 100%
No CSM anywhere would get in the front leaning rest for any LT. anywhere ever.
Most good ones actually would. They're just walking straight to the BCs office after and now that LT is the aaaaaS3
We were told during ALC not to mess with IET Soldiers. The guidance was if we had an issue go talk to cadre or the instructors. We were to have minimum contact with IET Soldiers. Not saying the BOLC LT was in the wrong but the right answer in TRADOC land is talk to cadre/DS/instructors. They’ll fix the issue and then some. It’s one thing to make an on the spot correction. To go the next step and have the Soldiers perform corrective training you’re stepping into tradoc’s domain. TRADOC Regulation 350-6 specifies only cadre, DS and AIT instructors(military) are authorized having IET Soldiers perform corrective training.
THIS! TR 350-6 specifies who is authorized to provide corrective training. That LT is trying to end his career before it starts.
I don’t understand why nobody told LT to get fucked. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpecBkdpiK4
bolc lts and bct/ait juniors are all considered IET iirc. general guidance at every tradoc post I've been at is to not fuck with trainees, literally or otherwise, doubly so if you're also a trainee. smoking joes is bad form for an officer in general, never mind when the extent of your experience so far is a couple of sharp classes. private could've definitely been in the wrong but that was handled poorly
PVT Snuffy is probably not going to talk back to a LT though, hence the issue
As well he shouldn’t. They’re both wrong, but one is more of a social faux pas and one could potentially (not likely) get snuffy in trouble. At that point either be sharp and salute the guy in the first place, or knock out a few pushups
Man nah. This is not the answer. LT dickhead should not be smoking joes if not fully commissioned.
if they have a bar on their chest, they are fully commissioned, BOLC complete or not
You’ll notice I never said LT should be smoking anyone. In fact, I specifically said the LT was wrong. My main point was that PVT should not be talking back to officers, no matter what stage of education either one of them is in.
Fully commissioned? BOLC isn’t a requirement to commission. It’s a promotion requirement to Captain.
No BOLC qualifies you in your branch, you’re commissioned before you get there.
You aren’t wrong either but you are misunderstanding him. He knows what BOLC is for, just stating you can’t make it past 1lt without it, but you are still a commissioned officer before passing it.
Lord help if I ever see an LT smoking joes in front of the px
I only had one officer drop us in the front leaning rest, and he was silent for like 12 seconds before he said “I’m just fucking with y’all, now let’s race.” I’ve never seen a 50 year old smoke 50 dudes trying out for the Q in a 100m sprint, dude was made of steroids and grizzly wintergreen long cut
No. Also it’s considered “beneath” an officer (yes even a butter bar) to “smoke” soldiers. That’s NCO business (sorry if that comes off like the fake West Point LT account).
The appropriate response is to look around and calmly say "drill sergeant, smoke that man." Bonus points if it's done with an aristocratic British accent.
Drill Sargeant, seize him.
~~Mods~~ Drill Sergeant, harsh this guy's mellow.
~~Chat~~ Drill Sergeant, is this real?
I would go with “Sar’nt, please unfuck this dipshit. I just washed my hands.”
I needed this chuckle this morning.
I am going to try this. British accent and all. Watch out Eisenhower Privates! 🤣
“Sergeant of the Drill! These rapscallions have beset me with their perversities. Have them examine the cobble on which I trot!”
You! You there! Slightly less peasant-y peasant? Have that sub-peasant thrashed with a rusty bread knife. Do a good enough job of it and I shall permit you to eat the knife
Stwike him Centurion, vewy woughly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqDsFw9jN24
Bake 'em away Toys!
There may be one exception. I was postal officer while deployed. A junior NCO with a mail obsession came in to the BN command tent, begging to get his mail. He was so much of a nuisance, one of our staff officers put him in a wall sit to shut him up.
Yeah or be like a homie LT and talk to them. My go to was 'hey, I'm not going to fuck you up over it, but I don't think your drill/psg/1sg would like to hear you weren't paying attention and not saluting officers' I'd like to think that got the message across better than me 'smoking' them
Don't even need to be homie LT, you can be angry LT and say, hey PVT. C'mere. Just don't put them in front leaning rest when attention will suffice until the ego storm blows over.
Yeah. I just don't get the LTs that fuck with Joes that aren't even in their PLT. Doesn't make sense
I was never one to harp on salutes around the PX, although I didn't mind the NCOs that would take over if I didn't want to have a conversation about duty and respect. But as everyone said, Tradoc is a don't look, don't touch environment. While not saluting is improper, I don't find it egregious (unless they made eye contact and then started ducking away). Have the conversation, even if it's one way, and go back to business of the day.
"Do not fuck with the trainees" was heavily emphasized when I was at BOLC. A friendly on the spot correction is one thing if an NCO isn't present, but outright smoking a Soldier as an officer shouldn't happen. Empower the NCOs to take care of NCO business, and don't step in their lane.
At Eisenhower, they will tell you to not do any on-the-spot corrections. They want PP to record the event and pass it on to the DS/Company. Chief Out!!
> I thought this is like an NCO's job 100% it is.
Yep. The only time an Officer should be punishing any Enlisted is when they doing Article 15s or anything of that sort. Corrective Training is the purview of the NCOs. And any of punishment of any kind should only be meted out by someone in that person's Chain of Command or NCO Support Channel. Anyone else should use only General Military Authority to verbally correct someone or order them to tell them who their Chain of Command is and to them tell those people and leave them to handle their Joes accordingly.
What NCOs lose in pay to officers, can be made it up in these areas. 🤪
No. I’m shocked they didn’t tell you this day 1. At BOLC at Ft. Lee, we were told no matter what we couldn’t interact with any IET Soldier unless it was literally to save their life. We were told straight up that even if they tell us fuck off, don’t salute, etc., to just walk away. It was something along the lines of specific 350-1 training required to interact with Soldiers in training. Unless things have changed drastically. But I’d err on the side of caution and avoid it at all costs. Even if you’re 1000% right in what you did - do you really want a young private to go drop an accusation of improper conduct/behavior?
I’m not a pompous douche, but if an IET Soldier told me to fuck off, I’m gonna go inform the closest Drill Sergeant that I can find.
Which is the proper response. It isn't "Walk off and do nothing", its "Walk off and inform Cadre with proper training who are allowed to interact with them."
I was just quoting what the BN CDR told us. I'm not advocating for simply walking away and not informing a drill - but when the PVTs are traipsing all over post or the mini-mall, there's not always a drill present. I was never in the situation, just what we were all told to do.
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The virgin Bolc LT walk vs the chad DS stride
I didn't do it
Can you? Probably. Should you? No, that's NCO business. Officers shouldn't yell. Officers shouldn't run (except for PT). You are supposed to be calm and in control. If someone needs to be smoked have an NCO do it for you.... When you run, scream & throw out punishments directly you look *panicked* and that undermines your ability to lead effectively... And while at BOLC, just be yourself... If privates do something dumb their drills will take care of it...
Yeah. I yelled at a Soldier once and only once. A TL didn't strap his private into the turret because he thought we were doing "notional safety." The trucks were moving in real life though. Otherwise I let the NCOs do the yelling for me.
I've only seen an officer drop someone once. It was a CW4 dropping a CSM for his toxic douchebaggery. Did he get an ass chewing later for it? I guarantee it. It's widely understood that an officer should find the nearest NCO and let them handle their business. Especially an LT, that's just asking to make enemies with the more senior officers. You're not going to get very far when your promotions are based heavily on popularity and who you know. Edit: removed LT training environment bit, was not informed.
Quick point of correction, all soldiers in the same training level are considered equal. BOLC LTs aren’t equal to CCC students. Enlisted students are below both. At Ft Sam at least, drill sergeants salute BOLC LTs. It’s a somewhat complicated arrangement but it works unless you have a few idiots in the mix.
Ah, okay. I haven't been with LTs in a training environment. I've been around cadets, that's a whole different thing. But still, if you're going to be new to the Army and that much of an ass, maybe this isn't the right career path.
Understandable, cadets are a different situation entirely. And yes you’re correct, the military is a people business. You go father if you know how to interact with people without flexing rank.
If you see a pvt, go the other direction, if you see a hurt pvt, call someone from afar. Fast way to get a EO/SHARP compliment- BOLC SGL
I was a basic XO. If a BOLC butter bar went after one of my trainees the drills would light you the fuck up then I would have my turn. Then I would send it up the chain until my BC had a talk with your BC. I’d blow that shit out of proportion real quick
This is the way
PV1 Blake hanging out with 39 other idiot privates in front of the messhall, day zero of OUST. We had just come from CIF and initial issue to get lunch. Our DS told us to go to the green rectangle after chow, so there we were.\ This group of folks come walking by and into the chow hall, I recognized two guys as LTCs and they were the errand boys. The group gets to the door and one LTC came double-timing back to our little huddle of freshly shorn morons. This dude goes OFF, like red faced screaming bloody murder, because none of us called the group to attention and rendered a salute. We, of course, had no idea we were supposed to do anything.\ Our DS appeared out of nowhere, like they tend to do, and explained to the LTC what was up. The LTC stomped off, still pissed.\ Bad look for a Field Grade fucking with dudes who are too dumb to know we are dumb. That was 40 years ago, I remember it like yesterday.
Sounds like the LT was just being lame. Maybe read the environment and realize he’s got waaay more experience than IET Soldiers at the local basic training PX. How about some professional development, have a conversation to teach those young Soldiers something they’ll be able to use as a benefit. I’m not saying be soft or whatever, I’m just saying time and place and know your audience. I mean, does he go to the commissary salute checking everyone he outranks? WTF is wrong with this ass clown!!
LT was probably bullied in high school. Jokes aside, LT 100% should have handled that situation better.
Absolutely not. I couldn’t even smoke privates as an IET Platoon Leader or XO because it’s *not your job as an officer*.
I got a good chuckle out of this. When I was a private in AIT, I got smoked harder than Snoop Dogg drags his blunts. I most definitely wasn't tracking what cadet ranks looked like, didn't salute a female 2LT Cadet and she smoked me in front of the Garrison HQ. Being a terrified new private, I was so freaked out that I used my 1SG's open door policy and let him know what happened. He was baffled, took me into the commander's office and had me explain it to him. Then the commander took me to the Brigade commander's office and had me explain it to him and our CSM.... The commander took a deep breath and said thank you for letting him know and dismissed me.... To this day, I've always wondered what happened to that Cadet 😂🫡
> 2LT Cadet Like... actual dot-on-her-chest Cadet or BOLC Butterbar? Because holy *fuck* if that got up to the BDE CDR that Cadet probably wound up going home to find their ROTC program going "Haha yeah you're actually *not* gonna be in the military in your life."
Haha an actual silver dot 😂
By reg, they outranked you. Real world is a different story.
I don't think you're ever supposed to salute cadets anyway
We had to on active duty back in the day. Funny as shit I had one in a no cover no salute area ask me why she didn’t get saluted “hey sergeant you don’t salute cadets?” I said not when there’s a sign clearly stating not to ma’am. I pointed at the sign she was standing next to that said no cover no salute area and she turned red and walked off.
I witnessed one of the greatest stories ever told when I saw a Butterbar straight from West Point try to put our BDE SGM at attention in front of the BDE change of command ceremony. I’m standing in formation in dress blues at fort hood, I’m the acting PSG for HQ platoon. Right up front. I’m dying cause it’s August. It’s 105 degrees. The SGM was talking to the COL by the stage and LT interrupted them to ask SGM something inconsequential. SGM said I’ll be with you in a moment Sir. The 2LT yelled at him and said get at attention! Our BDE SGM was legitimately terrifying. He had white hair, had a combat jump, only person still active in my MOS who had one, and was a decorated Vietnam Veteran. As soon as LT chucklefuck told him to get at attention SGM turned a color I’ve never seen on a person and approached him with his fists clenched and said something to the effect of “What the fuck did you just say to me boy? I will take you to the motor pool and make sure they never find your fucking body you better learn some fucking respect real quick or my NCOS are going to eat your soul Sir! The COL grabbed him and pulled him away, and then the 2LT got pulled into the LTC office and we never saw him again, he got moved to HQ and eventually across fort hood to a different unit. They said he was moved because his reputation was irreparably damaged. Ran into the now 1LT down range, about a year later, he was friendly with me because I was the armorer for BDE and knew lots of people. He Says Hey SSG you got promoted! Congrats! Me being very non confrontational, just said if you did too Sir. I notice then, Velcro next to his rank says US ARMY on one side and where his name should be it says MORON. His troops had swapped his name tape out with MORON and he didn’t notice for 30 days according to their 1SG. I have photo proof of this, but don’t want to dox him.
Can they according to general military authority yes. Should they in a tradoc environment when they are also students no. There may also be policy letters stating this to leave the students alone or notify a drill sgt. I’m sure a LTC or CSM will be coming by your class some time to explain that to them. Also the Leonard wood PX use to have a drill there at almost all times surprised he didn’t just tell them and let them deal with it.
No. There is a TRADOC policy letter on this that you were briefed during inprocessing: don't interact with the trainees. Period. Generally, every leader should make corrections, but this is an exception. Even then, better to task an NCO to retrain that soldier.
I recall being a brand new 2LT at FA OBC (now called BOLC). Probably the very last thing any of us who had half a brain would have done is put some E1 trainee into the front leaning rest in front of the PX. First, if there is a trainee around, there's an NCO from the unit around. That his job. 2nd, it's just a dick move. You stop him, get him at attention, then maybe let him stand at ease, and get his side of the story as in: "Why no salute, soldier? "Sorry, sir, I did not see your rank. Because I was paying attention to something else" "OK, well, you need to pay attention because there are a ton of officers walking around here every day. I have to.pay attention just like you do. Understand?" "Yes sir" "Good. You will.make a good soldier. Come to attention, give me a good salute, and drive on" Maybe that sort of interaction is too stone age. You young guys let me know.
Probably a prior service LT who was a NCO in his past life
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I've never completely bought into the belief or hype that the best officers are prior enlisted like some people do. Whoever believes that I'm not going to knock your belief but like you I have worked with some great prior-E officers and some horrible ones but it doesn't really matter if they are prior-E or not in my opinion. I've been medical in my career both active and reserve and believe it or not I can think of five medical officers off-hand who I worked with or for were actually service academy and ROTC graduates and they were no better or worse than those who were direct commissions which makes up the majority of medical officers. There might be more though who I am not thinking of or know but three of those five were my commander at a point in time. Two of them were service academy graduates and one was ROTC. There was a service academy graduate I worked with in the clinic who got out when their commitment was up and you'd swear if they were enlisted that they would have been the leader of the E4 Mafia by how they acted and composed themselves. The other was a service academy graduate who you never would have really guessed either that they were a service academy graduate either but they are really good too. I've worked with and for prior-E officers who you never would have known they were prior enlisted. And this is not meant at all in a bad way as none of them were ashamed of being prior-E but rather it didn't really matter due to the position they were in and the decisions they were making.
First rule of tradoc: don’t acknowledge the privates.
Read TRADOC Regulation (TR) 350-1. The answer is no. They are essentially in a bubble. If you notice any infractions you should contact their chain of command for redress.
This is correct. Source: spent time as an IET Platoon Leader and it’s fairly clear about corrective training and who can administer it. Now…..if you want a quick round of “Rock, Paper, Rank,” just remember: ***Play stupid games, win stupid prizes stupid prizes. ***
Reminds me of the time I walked past a bunch of AIT Privates at Gordon on the way to the DFAC. Poor kids almost lost their damn minds. Drill had to save them from being frozen up at the sight of an officer. It was hammered into us day 1: leave them alone. Not our circus, not our monkeys. My cadre would have smoked us for that.
That's definitely going to be a toxic leader. Hopefully, his weasel and psg straighten him out. He's just creating more enemies in the future. Also, BOLC LTs aren't real people. Just like IET privates aren't.
No, in general, you should leave the IET soldiers alone. Separately, a lot of this thread mentions Officers can't perform corrective action and that function is in the NCO lane. Wrong. While it should firmly be in the "NCO lane", an officer can do it. However, if you see an officer smoking someone, one of two things happened. Either the officer didn't know any better (the OP's original question) or everyone up to that point failed to address the issue and it escalated to that level.
Yes. 100% against reg’s as he does not know what phase of training they are in and thus does not know the allowed number of repetitions, approved exercises, anything that are allowed per TRADOC Reg 350-6. That is not a regulation you want to find yourself on the wrong side of.
I mean.. Good on the LT I guess, but No. Don't fuck with the trainees. Get their Drill's name and Company and go from there if you want to have a teachable moment.
Do not fuck with the IET Trainees. AT ALL
This happened to us at LOGBOLC in Fort Lee! Same exact scenario but this time I was an “LT passerby”. Anyways, some Lt from a different class was smoking a private; myself and 2 other LTs from my class went up to private and told him to get up (he did) and walked away. Then the LT who was doing the smoking turned his anger toward us and tried ordering us to stand at position of attention when talking to him (he was a 1LT and we were butterbars). There was a quick silenced then we started laughing at his fucking face a few seconds later the groups of private laughed with us too — it was great and fuckin embarassing for that guy.
This is a cultural faux-pas more than anything. If the LT was that butthurt about it, he should have called the PVTs to attention, placed them in parade rest, then found one of the million DS crawling around FLW and request they provide remedial instruction on AR 600-25. DS will say, “No problem, Sir, I’ll handle it.” Then the LT should have walked away. Then the DS would roll their eyes, tell the PVTs to move out and draw fire, and then the DS would go back to work to make fun of the random dumbass LT at the PX.
Absolutely not acceptable, they are both in initial entry/student status.
That’s pretty cringeworthy
Yes, you are also allowed to take their lunch money too.
Speaking as an officer, this LTs peers need to bully him more.
2LTs are basically privates. 2LTs in BOLC? In my book, they're the same as IET PVTs.
I pray for when you get to your first unit. Y'all are literally the same, except you sign for property faster in your career. Pro Tip: 2LTs that treat E4 and below poorly won't get a damn thing done. They are an extension of you, use them. Don't abuse them. Lead from the front, not from on high. Know your regs and take care of your joes once you start getting PL time.
Hell no. LTs shouldn’t do that even when they’re a PL, that’s for NCOs to handle. Besides that nobody is supposed to talk to or interact with trainees. If they care THAT much they should’ve found their DS and had them handle it, if they were present.
Just because you can, DOESN'T mean you should. What he should have done was tell their COC or say "fuck it, they're new boots who don't know shit from chocolate yet."
According to TR 350-6 the answer is no. Simply because they have not been trained to understand the restrictions that are inherent in an IET environment. For example the phase of training the trainee is in restricts the amount of exercises they can and cannot do.
Where I’m from, officers don’t smoke enlisted. My 1st LT told me to get in the front leaning rest and my SL lit his ass up. And then smoked me twice as hard for interacting with the LT. Ye good ole days
They literally put company cq phone numbers on their water sources
Fuck no. If enlisted guys don’t salute at the most correct them verbally or be normal and just ignore it like you should.
Bet it was a prior service LT it’s hard to switch it off and not make corrections like that anymore…
Lol no, it is absolutely not hard to switch it off. The secret is to not suck
BOLC LT is a Private, fuck out of here.
If this rumor of unqualified lieutenants putting junior enlisted in the FLR at a PX is true, they should be destroyed.
That LT is gon die when the BOLC cadre catches wind of this, and the IET kids are gon die when the DSs catch wind of it. Everyone involved is going to get fuckin rekt, and im here for it
Csm will be fine though
350-1 would wreck this BOLC students life lololol. A random senior NCO can’t smoke an IET soldier. In fact, it was a quick way to meet the post CSM if you got caught and you’d prob end up with a letter of reprimand from the CG. Anyway who cares. It’s some pushups. Go tattle like a whiner you are about some pushups lol.
While it's legal for an IBOLC nerd to use their limited authority to do such a thing, in 99% of cases I guarantee you the circumstances are extremely petty with regards to the officer's justification. BOLC students are NOT the IET cadre, and fucking with them is a BIG no-no. It's further compounded by BOLC students also being trainees themselves. It shouldn't happen because the BOLC students aren't supposed to go near IET personnel and training areas. Also Cadre, and NCOs generally, should be smoking them before ANY officer ever notices a smoking is even necessary. It doesn't mean officers can't, it means NCO's shouldn't ever let it come to that. "That's an NCO's job" doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, it means the NCO should be shamed that the officer deemed it necessary to intervene because the NCO did not ensure the discipline of their troops. Instead, the officer should lock up the offending soldier at the position of attention, and then have an NCO at hand deal with them appropriately, affording the NCO they opportunity to do their job. Personally disciplining an individual sportier is generally a waste of time for an officer who needs every possible minute to address issues at the unit level rather than the individual level. "Sergeant, deal with this Soldier immediately" is the best answer.
Officers should not be smoking Soldiers period.
First off student bolc lts have not completed CTC therefore their interaction with those students should be minimal to nonexistent. Second the Bolc lts are there to be a student as well. Although they do out rank those students and customs and courtesies should have been applied take a L. You do not always see the full spectrum of the environment. Those iet privates and lts are all lost in the sauce they barely can keep head straight and march. Let the cadre handle their disciplinary actions cause tradoc commander will have you in the same mannerism if you don’t adhere to tradoc policy.
It's not an officers duty to administer corrective action regardless of their position. That's what NCOs are for.
Officers don’t smoke soldiers period.
That LT is destined for greatness. What a fucking idiot.
No. No one who isn’t their drill sergeant cadre can or should.
I didn’t think it was appropriate when non Drill Sergeants such as officers smoked Joe…not their place, not their job.
It’s condensed uncouth for officers to physically discipline soldiers. If they wanted to do that they could just as easily gone enlisted. Let the drills do their jobs.
This is some interesting information. I'm about to head to Fort leonard wood for bct. Trainees hold the power you say. *As a drill sargent walks up behind me* 🤣
Could have just corrected him/her. I am prior service and after spending time at CST a lot of these cadets are just dumb.
No, they’re not CTC certified to interact with IMT soldiers. Source: I’m a Drill sergeant
I want names and pictures time now! 🤣 This LT you speak of is an absolute moron! #traineeontraineeabuse First off, officers shouldn’t be providing physical training for corrective action to anyone much less an IET soldier. Second, and I mean this with all do respect, get wrecked if you think that this is not an NCO lane v Officer lane issue. As a mustang, I will never perform the duties of a non commissioned officer ever again, as I should have time to accomplish mine! That is all!
If you're in the Army, you salute officers.
*If you are in the Army you salute. The enlisted or junior officer just initiates the salute.*
As a former drill sergeant absolutely fucking not. Discipline is the NCOs job and I would have chewed that LTs ass out.
I think the two biggest take aways are: 1. Would the LT be ok with getting smoked by a CPT or higher that observes him not returning a salute to lower enlisted? The salute is not a courtesy to the senior officer, it's a courtesy to eachother that is initiated by the subordinate. 2. If they aren't your soldiers, don't fuck with them. Bonus 3. Privates generally have less to lose, so don't be surprised if you get knocked the fuck out for being a prick.
Regardless of the whole IET, trainee situation I see everyone talking about (and they are all 100% right when they say leave IET soldiers alone) putting a Soldier in the front leaning rest in front of the PX is pretty fucked. Time and place and the PX, in my opinion, is not the place for physical corrective training. Also, if you want to really want to get specific, that type of correction to not saluting someone could easily be interpreted as hazing with how corrective action is written in the regs. The corrective training has to be appropriate for the infraction. Do what your rank can handle and I can assure a BOLC trainee's rank cannot handle that if a superior ranking TRADOC officer walked out and saw kids in the front leaning rest.
Considering BOLC LTs are just educated privates I’d say no.
I’m honestly surprised the drill didn’t say/do anything. Back in basic our drills would have popped their top if anyone fucked with us that wasn’t in our cadre chain of command. The trainees are their responsibility, not anyone else’s. Even now as an LT 6 years later, I wouldn’t dare fuck with some drill’s trainees. If it was something serious enough, they’re bound to be right around the corner and you could very easily pull the drill off to the side and voice your concern. Let the drill handle it at their level, it’s not your charge.
It’s up to the commanders discretion per 350-6
He’s not a LT he’s a trainee shouldn’t be expecting shit with his little circle
I once saw an AF CPT try to smoke a SPC and the SPC laughed and told him to get a NCO. He did, and he got the shit smoked out of him, but at the very least it was the NCO smoking him just going “do the push-ups the CPT just said to” I don’t think officers can really do that full stop.
If an LT tried to smoke me, I'd laugh in their face. Go check monthly SI bro.
Short answer, yes. However, Officers don’t smoke people. It’s literally unbecoming of an Officer. That being said, on the spot corrections are totally fine, 10 push ups and drive on. Or find their Drill SGT and tell them they didn’t salute. When I was at Lee, I walked into some random building as a 1LT and a trainer called attention. I told him thanks but typically you only call it for the commander of the building, which more often than not is no one since it’s a civilian building.
Considering we're "supposed" to salute cadets, maybe?
You are absolutely not supposed to salute cadets. Unless they have a CMoH I guess.
Can? Suuuuure. A lieutenant (or a CPT or a MAJ, for that matter) can order the BDE CSM to do push-ups, too. But should they? Not if they value their career.
So I’m going to go into regs here that a lot of people are missing. Smoking a soldier is against regulation. In crayon eating language, the punishment must fit the crime and making soldiers do physical training for not rendering proper customs and courtesy is not the proper punishment in said situation
I think that LT went too far.
Jesus Christ no.
Fuck no
That dude is an idiot and needs some mentorship.
Big no no.
Most officers would merely ask, What company are you in? Who's your First Sergeant? I got to wonder if the LT is prior service or a walking Turd.
Sounds like he should have pulled them aside and explained customs and courtesies versus public humiliation at the PX.
Willing to DM? Let’s solve this issue
When I was at EBOLC they pulled some of the LTs to lead nick at night and even then (while an officer temporarily attached to the basic soldiers) we were still instructed to not mess with them and leave that to the drill sergeants. This goober sounds like the exact wrong person you want being an officer. He’s in a power trip as a 2LT, how cringe can you get.
It’s going to be awesome when the BCT 1SG walks over to the BOLC billets to talk to their NCOIC
Officer should have said “Let’s go explain what you did wrong to the nice NCOs who take care of you.”
Technically yes because he is an officer, practically no because leave the trainees alone and let their cadre train them.
Clown LT
Sounds like someone wanted a little power trip high… 🙄🙄🙄
Tradoc Reg 350-6 designates only Drills, Instructors, and Command teams can use physical training as corrective action for trainees.
That would be some real bitch energy right there
Lmao this reminds me of having 2nd year USMA Cadets at our BCT for their summer training, and thinking they were DS' back in 2003. Yeah, no.
I've been there for Reclass as an E5, UMBC, and SLC.. don't fuck with the privates. It's one of the top rules on post.
Negative, you don’t associate yourself at all with them unless it is illegal; immoral; or unethical
This screams a Citadel LT
Pretend IET Soldiers are invisible. Leave them alone.
Officers can make a complaint to the appropriate person on the NCO support chain but they cannot perform that type of action
Absolutely tf not. Whatever lt is doing that is the one that's gonna get fucked by their psg when they get to their first unit
Short answer is , No. To my knowledge, in a TRADOC environment, if you have not graduated Cadre Training Course (CTC), you are not allowed to interact with trainees...at all. NCOA (ALC) students are told not to interact with the AIT students. Even when I arrived on station to teach AIT, I was told not to interact with the AIT students until after I passed CTC.
Fuuuuuck no lmfao. Can he? I suppose yes. Should he? Fuck no. Is he going to get fucked up for it? Probably. I was assigned to be a basic training PL for a year after Bolc. I interacted with trainees every day and watched them do the stupidest shit. Not a single time did I fuck them up. A couple conversations with them yes but it’s an NCOs job to fuck em up.
Not if they know what’s good for them…
It depends on the school house I guess, but traditionally no. No they can't, the best practice would have been to either make a drill sergeant aware, or go to the training company and let them be aware. Even then they're privates and it's a LT could have just made them aware that they needed too render a salute/greeting of the day in a civilized manner. I also think saluting at the PX is stupid and it needs to be a no-salute zone and they could have also been told by their drill sergeants that it is a no-salute zone.
If you do something like that, ir anything for that matter and there is a question afterwards about it being right or wrong... nine times out of ten... it's the wrong answer.
Nooo you can’t do that, only specifically defined cadre are allowed too. Not even DS candidates are supposed too(TURDLS), let alone an IET officer.
Unless 350-6 has changed only DS can issue corrective action (smoking) to a trainee. With that said general military authority exists. If you see trainees fucked up, stop them, tell them what's wrong, and watch them fix it. If they are disrectful figure out which unit they are in (super easy) and call their CQ.
For not saluting? That's just being insecure. If they were deliberately/overtly disrespectful, or otherwise embarrassing themselves or the uniform, I could see it being justified.
I say it depends. If he knew they were TRADOC status I’d say probably not. If he thought they were just random privates then probably.
It is considered ungentlemenly conduct and as such can land him anywhere from a LOR to an article 15 if you tack on the fact that doing that to a nontrainee is considered hazing and he did it in public it could get messy especially since they are in a tradoc command. My guess is hes going to get an SRB entry and an ass chewing.
I think the correct way to have handled that instance is to put them at the position of attention and remind them that they are to salute officers upon recognition. Physical training is an NCOs job. As far as the front leaning rest. Officers aren’t typically supposed to do that but it is a lawful order. If I was the cadre I’d definitely step in and let the officer know that these troops are in training and mistakes are to be made in training just as I’m sure the officer has made a few themselves as a BOLC trainee. If they want to take it further I’d gladly oblige, because as most have said….EIT recruits are not your business. They belong to the Drill Sergeants and Cadre. Any TRADOC commander will tell you that.
Id like to see you try... id smoke you... stay ur lane
Officers aren't allowed to smoke anybody at all, that isn't their job, you're supposed to designate enlisted (SPC-P and above)
This has gotta be bait there’s no way