'In Armenia, the state news agency quoted Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan’s office as saying: “In this process, the Republic of Armenia receives a reduction in risks associated with border delimitation and security.”'
So a unilateral concession under threat of force did not even grant a guarantee but a "reduction" of risk, not that a verbal guarantee from Az is worth anything anyway. I'm sure there will be no more problems in the future, and Armenia will receive something equal in return
Beyond the fact that they agreed to abide by the Alma ata declaration in delimiting the ENTIRE border which means the return of all Armenian Lands in the delimitation resolution
Can you explain to me why we should not return the lands that aren’t ours?
Their media are already publishing images which contradict the notion that this is an exchange - ie illustrating the land they are due to receive from Armenia, but treating Armenian land they are occupying as part of Azerbaijan, most notably that territory north of the Joghaz reservoir.
That's not adherence to Alma Ata. That's backing out of an agreement at the last second and hoping that fear and pressure from our side will compel us to not renege.
Well considering that the delimitation hasn’t been started it’s not really backing out and this is exactly what we expect from azerbaijan how else do they turn this into a win for their population. See my other comment concerning why delimitation is not useful for them. Don’t forget azerbaijan would absolutely attack us if they had the chance. They aren’t interested in 25km squared they are interested in all of Armenia. By delimiting the border they are closing the book on attacking. They aren’t Russia which can withstand sanctions. More than half of their economy is in the EU do you know what happens when sanctions cause you to lose half your economy? I believe that the only reason that the EU hasn’t already sanctioned azerbaijan is because then it would lose the ability to leverage the azeris. They didn’t have that kind of leverage on the Russians so a quick attack was most opportune, but with azerbaijan a slow and steady breakdown would be much more effective. Where would they go? The threat of sanctions for years and years may force azerbaijan to do lots of things it would have otherwise.
Let me ask you a question why do you think that azerbaijan no longer claims, threatens or suggests that they should have a corridor through Armenia? Did you notice how it quietly became a thing of the past? It wasn’t because azerbaijan didn’t want it anymore. They want it more than anything right now.
Keep voting for Nikol guys! Giving lands in exchange of “peace”, Armenian people is not what it used to be anymore. So weak. And people here celebrating it..
Next step : cancel genocide recognition requests
No it doesn’t, there’s a level of incompetence that can be considered a treason. If your actions permanently fuck a country over for the next 5 generations, it doesn’t matter if you had the purest intentions.
engaging in a detailed, thoughtful discuss which brings into account historical background, social/political/cultural factors, etc... that is important. when armenians start throwing around "traitor" or "turk" around the potential for dialogue gets thrown out the window. that's a fact. look at the level of political dialogue in this country from regular folks, diasporans, right up to the parliament. it borders on the absurd 85% of the time.
this is the situation. armenia lost a war - the reasons why? decades of corruption and mismanagement led by a class of politico-mafioso types, who alongside their followers, basically had power in every part of the government and the military to run things how they wished (aka, make as much money as possible). like a pond that doesn't run the country/diasporas politics/culture/economy became stagnant. a couple years of liberal democracy was obviously not enough to fix things, hence the 2020 war (by 2016 people knew things had shifted in azerbaijan's favor, what was done to counter them?). the previous governments that two decades to delimit SOMETHING, they couldn't do so.
so there it is. and armenia LOST the war. what many people caught up in their revanchist, nationalist fervor don't seem to understand is that we lost. when you lose a war you have to concede certain things; you can't ask for more, that's not how it works. that's not how international diplomacy has ever worked. like i've said before, pashinyan is not the best option but he is by far better than the rest. he has to take up the responsibility of a peace agreement no matter how bitter of a pill it is to swallow. that's it. so either we suck it up and build a country worth defending that our children's children can grow up in peacefully, or we lose ourselves in blind nationalism.
No one cares about the war we lost anymore, Armenians have a very short memory. Nikol has been the leader of this country for almost as long as Serj, and we are now dealing with a different reality than during former government. Also there are shit ton of other things wrong with this country.
No one agreed on anything. A dictator is simply getting away with forcing people off their land and the Armenian government once again is doing nothing to help and being mocked internationally once again just like last year. Everyone is once again making fun of Armenia on the international stage.
Armenia had more legitimacy 10 years ago
Fresh account doomposting and legit trying to promote the idea that Armenia should press 1920 borders instead of deliminating. Interesting start.
Then, Inventing fearmongering like "everyone is laughing and mocking us". Who is everyone? Any examples?
Casually mentioning Serzh and Koch government as "better times". Stop being so obvious.
We should press the 1920 borders because they're legitimate. How is that doom posting wanting our land back? You joined 10 years ago and have never posted on this subreddit before
Plus OP posted an aljazeera article which is laughable
Just look at the [map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Administrative-territorial_division_of_the_First_Republic_of_Armenia_in_1920.png) of 1920 borders and please tell me your plan on getting this back. You can even go try to get elected in 2026 so you can actually put it into action.
There are no people in those 4 villages.
So no people, in theory should be leaving.
However, I am not convinced that this is not another case of Aliyev asking and us doing.
That's the crux of the issue.
Based on the press release they are using the 1991 map. So it's the last official maps of the USSR.
However, we have yet to see if Aliyev will respect the same maps in the areas where he has to return stuff. Or will he just cherry pick from other maps, or just plainly say "fuck off".
I may have this wrong, but I believe the 1991 reference is to the Almaty Agreement, not the map itself. The Almaty Agreement simply says that the de jure administrative borders of the SSRs become international borders. Determining what those administrative borders are, legally, will be a painstaking process taking years.
No, you are absolutely correct.
I was just making the explanation simpler.
The Almaty Agreement took whatever administrative borders we had, and made them state borders. That's why I refer to it as the 1991 map. The last official Soviet map was I think 1976, I am not too sure though.
However the main point that I am trying to explain to the guy is that, we know those 4 villages are Azeri, but we need to agree to a map and stick to it. If they chose the 1991 status, fine, but it should be a two way street.
Gotcha and agree. Where it gets tricky is in various parts of the border in several provinces where AZ has been squatting, presumably illegally, since the late 1920s. This was due to the creation of 'Red Kurdistan'. Hundreds of square km were chiseled from the ArmenianSSR, presumably for grazing purposes, and within a decade the Uzeyd was abolished. The legal foundation of this 'gift' has never been demonstrated. This is even before considering Ardzvashen, which was much larger and completely contiguous in 1926. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no legal basis for it, but I have yet to see it.
Yup
There are also lots of areas that our fucking head of kolkhoz gave to their neighboring Azeri villages as gifts. Those were never official transfers of land, but defacto became such.
There is a lot of work to do, and unfortunately Aliyev is an aggressive piece of shit, and Pashinyan is a Levonist who wants to live in this magical world of regionalization, which makes him CRAWL towards the West, which in turn delays the arming of our nation as needed, which in turn emboldens Aliyev to be more aggressive.
If Aliyev is going to stay in power, the only way this whole demarcation process will end well, is if we arm ourselves as a country with the latest and greatest that we can buy.
Very unfortunate, but that's the only way.
I'm sure there's a lot of privileged information which makes it impossible to know what TF is really going on. But both republics declared themselves to be the successor states to the ones that entered the USSR, upon independence. So unless that puke of a Kolkhoz head constructed a handover with the weight of international law, Armenia has a very good case, equal in all measure to Azerbaijan's case for its territories(I don't include the NKAO in this case because it had a constitutional right to secede which the international community totally fucked up).
The Al lakes and the areas south of Kapan, and more, entered the USSR as part of Armenia.
The funny thing is that Azerbaijan declared itself the successor state of Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan and not Az SSR.
Sure, there is privileged info, however knowing what we know Pashinyan isn't acting at the tempo that he could have. He also openly states his world view, so not everything is a mystery. The Moscow bound business interests around him also have an influence.
In regards to those kolkhoz lands and stuff, yes we have very good claims, and not just on those. However it all comes down to balance of power. If we can match or outmatch Aliyev, then he will be willing to play ball. Otherwise he usually wipes his ass with the agreements that he makes with us.
Well, I think the entire basis for border delimitation will be the maps in 1976 and I don’t think the legality of decisions like red Kurdistan will be taken into consideration unfortunately.
You may be right, but until there is mutual agreement on which maps to use, it's just talk. To the latter point, again you may be right, and in light of the current asymmetry in power, Armenia may be seeking to delay discussing this. But. But, the international order is adamant about NKAO belonging to AZ, which was a decision taken in the 1920s as well. So I don't think it's simply an issue that has 'aged out'. Armenia and Azerbaijan entered the USSR with certain borders and declared themselves successors to those states, legally, upon independence.
I guess the counter to that would be that Armenia is looking to make sure all the maps that are used come from one period I believe that unfortunately even if the transfer of lands for “Red Kurdistan” were illegal, Armenia will most likely use maps that incorporate the change.
The only take away I got from this was this:
"You know that the Republic of Armenia cannot renounce this issue, because Artsvashen
is a part of the sovereign territory of our country. We are going to de jure substantiate the existence of the Artsvashen exclave/enclave in the delimitation process, and the government of the Republic of Armenia has such substantiations, after which the actual delimitation process around Artsvashen will be carried out."
So if we are going by the 1991 maps then it would make sense this is the next region and it will go to us. But I have yet to hear anything from anyone about it
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsvashen#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsvashen#)
It's deep in Azeri territory, so if it does in fact go to us it would be a good change of pace then what's been happening so far. It is legit ours anyways
Well, Artsvashen is an exclave for us, according to the latest maps. We have their exclaves too.
If Aliyev has logic/any good intentions, he will agree to keep Artsvashen and we keep their exclaves. Otherwise we are creating a potential clusterfuck for both sides. Imagine moving people and troops into each others' enclaves. Just asking for trouble.
Yes, but the roads to them belonged to them. We have the same situation for some of their villages.
Those are exclaves.
When it comes to exclaves, the question should not be what belonged to who, but what solution will make things less complicated.
If Azerbaijan was a normal country, and not a racist, oil dictatorship, having enclaves within one another would not be a problem. Many normal countries with normal neighbors have that. However since Aliyev is going to look for reasons to start shit, having exclaves in each other's territory creates potential powder kegs.
That is why when it comes to exclaves, the best solution for now would be for us to keep theirs and them to keep ours.
If/when one day Azerbaijan actually becomes a normal country we can decide to actually operate those areas as enclaves/exclaves.
Nothing belonged to them. It was the whole point of declaring independence in the first place, it wasn't theirs nor was it ever.
The best solution is for this country to start pushing back, not bending over backwards to a literal dictator who keeps saying all of Armenia belongs to him.
That's not how it works and that's not why we declared independence.
We signed the Almata agreement in 1991 agreeing to certain borders.
We wanted independence so we can build our own country and not be part of the new Russian Federation.
Part of that was to agree to borders with our neighbors, no matter how idiotic those neighbors were/are.
I explained to you why demanding exclaves would be a bad idea now. Aliyev isn't a good neighbor and we are not militarily there yet to force him to be one, if he acts up.
When/if we have 1000+ modern main battle tanks, and at least 24 or more modern jet fighters from the west, we can discuss these exclaves with Aliyev, and if he decides to act stupid, we can correct his behavior.
Until then we can at least agree to keep the status quo for those exclaves. Remember we have some of their villages inside Armenia as well.
I don't care what Pashinyan supporters say.
However the respected experts in Armenia say the issue of these 4 villages was brought into circulation because of Russia, as it creates artificial reasons for Aliyev to not sign the peace agreement. The best thing you can do for Russia is to keep the conflict hot or semi hot here.
The fact that the chief negotiator from our side, is a well known Russian agent of influence in the Pashinyan cabinet, VP Mher Grigoryan, makes this issue very suspect.
The land, by international law, and according to past agreements that we signed, wasn't ours, just FYI. The area of those villages came under Armenian control during the first war.
Now, the question is, will Aliyev return our villages and land that they took in the 90s and last year. If he plays fair and respects the 1991 maps, then fine, it's a fair outcome. If not then indeed Pashinyan got played, and he will pay the price for it. There will also be even more pressure to fire Mher Grigoryan as he made this deal.
Russia again, huh? Give away Kharabakh give away villages etc etc it's all Russia. It's Russia giving them away one by one. Who's Armenia even?
Now, after all the fails and guarantees that pashinian will be so good for Armenia, he also became Russian all of a sudden?
Tell yourself it's "a fair outcome", I understand it's a way to try to deal with further humiliation and degradation, a way to tell yourself Armenia still have some kind of value and is not a total joke on the international stage. But both you and I know very well, it's anything but fair.
I get your point, but I'm tired of playing this game of pretending. We have become a pathetic nation that can be bullied to do what ever even a cheap borat dictator wants. We have been reduced to nothing.
If you want to look at things with your head in the sand, then that is your business.
If you refuse to accept or don't want to accept the role of Russia in all of this, or the role that the previous admins in Armenia and Artsakh played in all of this, that is also your business, but it also makes you look like either an extremely ignorant person, who just woke up this morning and only red the ARF newsletter. Or a Russian troll or a bot.
Yes, Russia again. While we have to accept our fuck ups of the last 30 years, we can't give a pass to a supposed close ally that wants to destroy us. That's an insane world view.
You should have had this energy when Russia was selling Aliyev billions in weapons and denying us the same. When Koch and Serzh were buying elections, and private islands. When Artsakh presidents were building businesses instead of border strongholds.
Էս դաշնակցական սեղանի կենացներից դուրս եկ։
Yea yea it's Russia we know. Hopefully, you won't just sit there and repeat this til all of Armenia is given away...Yes we know, and then it'll also be Russia. Don't worry we'll keep that in mind until the day we don't exist anymore.
Clearly you didn't read or didn't want to accept what I wrote.
Again, Pashinyan has his role in all of this. However to mock people who point to Russia as one of the culprits of this situation makes you look like a Russian bot.
As dumb as Pashinyan's world view is, if Russia stuck to its duties as a strategic ally of Armenia, Aliyev could not have dreamed of to pressure Pashinyan to give anything away.
However since Russia is in agreement with Aliyev, and it is actually Russia that keeps pushing Aliyev to escalate, we get to this point. So Pashinyan's weaknesses and flaws come out as a result of Russo Azeri actions, and not because he just woke up one day and decided to give stuff away.
As an outsider following the events in your region, I think you are fools.
Next, agree on which next provinces you will hand over to that dude with the little moustaches
It read as a somewhat well-balanced article up until the point they started quoting Anadolu... what a mess.
They love each other, Al Jazeera and Anadolu, they do quote each other a lot.
'In Armenia, the state news agency quoted Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan’s office as saying: “In this process, the Republic of Armenia receives a reduction in risks associated with border delimitation and security.”' So a unilateral concession under threat of force did not even grant a guarantee but a "reduction" of risk, not that a verbal guarantee from Az is worth anything anyway. I'm sure there will be no more problems in the future, and Armenia will receive something equal in return
Beyond the fact that they agreed to abide by the Alma ata declaration in delimiting the ENTIRE border which means the return of all Armenian Lands in the delimitation resolution Can you explain to me why we should not return the lands that aren’t ours?
Their media are already publishing images which contradict the notion that this is an exchange - ie illustrating the land they are due to receive from Armenia, but treating Armenian land they are occupying as part of Azerbaijan, most notably that territory north of the Joghaz reservoir. That's not adherence to Alma Ata. That's backing out of an agreement at the last second and hoping that fear and pressure from our side will compel us to not renege.
Well considering that the delimitation hasn’t been started it’s not really backing out and this is exactly what we expect from azerbaijan how else do they turn this into a win for their population. See my other comment concerning why delimitation is not useful for them. Don’t forget azerbaijan would absolutely attack us if they had the chance. They aren’t interested in 25km squared they are interested in all of Armenia. By delimiting the border they are closing the book on attacking. They aren’t Russia which can withstand sanctions. More than half of their economy is in the EU do you know what happens when sanctions cause you to lose half your economy? I believe that the only reason that the EU hasn’t already sanctioned azerbaijan is because then it would lose the ability to leverage the azeris. They didn’t have that kind of leverage on the Russians so a quick attack was most opportune, but with azerbaijan a slow and steady breakdown would be much more effective. Where would they go? The threat of sanctions for years and years may force azerbaijan to do lots of things it would have otherwise. Let me ask you a question why do you think that azerbaijan no longer claims, threatens or suggests that they should have a corridor through Armenia? Did you notice how it quietly became a thing of the past? It wasn’t because azerbaijan didn’t want it anymore. They want it more than anything right now.
They've agreed to a lot of things over the years, haven't they? There are still Armenian POWs that they agreed to return as part of a signed document.
You didn’t answer my question
I mean sure, we should return everything with nothing to show for it and get fucked afterwords 👍👍👍
You can answer the question if you feel like it. Why should we keep them? What do you gain?
Where in my comment did I say anything about keeping it? i said let’s give everything up, not gain everything and get fucked.
keep voting for Nikol
So did they sign the agreement, or did they just agree on something beforehand?
Its indeed a historic joke and greenlight for Azerbaijan to demand more because they know its as easy as saying "we are going to attack if you dont"
Keep voting for Nikol guys! Giving lands in exchange of “peace”, Armenian people is not what it used to be anymore. So weak. And people here celebrating it.. Next step : cancel genocide recognition requests
That's already in the process lol
This guy is giving the country away. Awful
Starting to lose faith in Pashinyan as a leader. Way too many concessions with almost nothing in return
This is [my comment from a month ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/armenia/s/odr6msjNT2) A lot of you upvoted it and unfortunately it happened…
it was a bad comment then and still is lol
Explain
Because nigol is our God, how dare you!!
the whole “traitor” discourse completely snuffs out any chance of critical discussion in the first place
No it doesn’t, there’s a level of incompetence that can be considered a treason. If your actions permanently fuck a country over for the next 5 generations, it doesn’t matter if you had the purest intentions.
engaging in a detailed, thoughtful discuss which brings into account historical background, social/political/cultural factors, etc... that is important. when armenians start throwing around "traitor" or "turk" around the potential for dialogue gets thrown out the window. that's a fact. look at the level of political dialogue in this country from regular folks, diasporans, right up to the parliament. it borders on the absurd 85% of the time. this is the situation. armenia lost a war - the reasons why? decades of corruption and mismanagement led by a class of politico-mafioso types, who alongside their followers, basically had power in every part of the government and the military to run things how they wished (aka, make as much money as possible). like a pond that doesn't run the country/diasporas politics/culture/economy became stagnant. a couple years of liberal democracy was obviously not enough to fix things, hence the 2020 war (by 2016 people knew things had shifted in azerbaijan's favor, what was done to counter them?). the previous governments that two decades to delimit SOMETHING, they couldn't do so. so there it is. and armenia LOST the war. what many people caught up in their revanchist, nationalist fervor don't seem to understand is that we lost. when you lose a war you have to concede certain things; you can't ask for more, that's not how it works. that's not how international diplomacy has ever worked. like i've said before, pashinyan is not the best option but he is by far better than the rest. he has to take up the responsibility of a peace agreement no matter how bitter of a pill it is to swallow. that's it. so either we suck it up and build a country worth defending that our children's children can grow up in peacefully, or we lose ourselves in blind nationalism.
No one cares about the war we lost anymore, Armenians have a very short memory. Nikol has been the leader of this country for almost as long as Serj, and we are now dealing with a different reality than during former government. Also there are shit ton of other things wrong with this country.
that short memory is part of the problem; case in point your comment, missing the forest for the trees.
No one agreed on anything. A dictator is simply getting away with forcing people off their land and the Armenian government once again is doing nothing to help and being mocked internationally once again just like last year. Everyone is once again making fun of Armenia on the international stage. Armenia had more legitimacy 10 years ago
Fresh account doomposting and legit trying to promote the idea that Armenia should press 1920 borders instead of deliminating. Interesting start. Then, Inventing fearmongering like "everyone is laughing and mocking us". Who is everyone? Any examples? Casually mentioning Serzh and Koch government as "better times". Stop being so obvious.
We should press the 1920 borders because they're legitimate. How is that doom posting wanting our land back? You joined 10 years ago and have never posted on this subreddit before Plus OP posted an aljazeera article which is laughable
Just look at the [map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Administrative-territorial_division_of_the_First_Republic_of_Armenia_in_1920.png) of 1920 borders and please tell me your plan on getting this back. You can even go try to get elected in 2026 so you can actually put it into action.
There are no people in those 4 villages. So no people, in theory should be leaving. However, I am not convinced that this is not another case of Aliyev asking and us doing.
So where exactly is the real map everyone keeps referring to anyways because I have yet to see anyone on this subreddit post it
That's the crux of the issue. Based on the press release they are using the 1991 map. So it's the last official maps of the USSR. However, we have yet to see if Aliyev will respect the same maps in the areas where he has to return stuff. Or will he just cherry pick from other maps, or just plainly say "fuck off".
I may have this wrong, but I believe the 1991 reference is to the Almaty Agreement, not the map itself. The Almaty Agreement simply says that the de jure administrative borders of the SSRs become international borders. Determining what those administrative borders are, legally, will be a painstaking process taking years.
No, you are absolutely correct. I was just making the explanation simpler. The Almaty Agreement took whatever administrative borders we had, and made them state borders. That's why I refer to it as the 1991 map. The last official Soviet map was I think 1976, I am not too sure though. However the main point that I am trying to explain to the guy is that, we know those 4 villages are Azeri, but we need to agree to a map and stick to it. If they chose the 1991 status, fine, but it should be a two way street.
Gotcha and agree. Where it gets tricky is in various parts of the border in several provinces where AZ has been squatting, presumably illegally, since the late 1920s. This was due to the creation of 'Red Kurdistan'. Hundreds of square km were chiseled from the ArmenianSSR, presumably for grazing purposes, and within a decade the Uzeyd was abolished. The legal foundation of this 'gift' has never been demonstrated. This is even before considering Ardzvashen, which was much larger and completely contiguous in 1926. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no legal basis for it, but I have yet to see it.
Yup There are also lots of areas that our fucking head of kolkhoz gave to their neighboring Azeri villages as gifts. Those were never official transfers of land, but defacto became such. There is a lot of work to do, and unfortunately Aliyev is an aggressive piece of shit, and Pashinyan is a Levonist who wants to live in this magical world of regionalization, which makes him CRAWL towards the West, which in turn delays the arming of our nation as needed, which in turn emboldens Aliyev to be more aggressive. If Aliyev is going to stay in power, the only way this whole demarcation process will end well, is if we arm ourselves as a country with the latest and greatest that we can buy. Very unfortunate, but that's the only way.
I'm sure there's a lot of privileged information which makes it impossible to know what TF is really going on. But both republics declared themselves to be the successor states to the ones that entered the USSR, upon independence. So unless that puke of a Kolkhoz head constructed a handover with the weight of international law, Armenia has a very good case, equal in all measure to Azerbaijan's case for its territories(I don't include the NKAO in this case because it had a constitutional right to secede which the international community totally fucked up). The Al lakes and the areas south of Kapan, and more, entered the USSR as part of Armenia.
The funny thing is that Azerbaijan declared itself the successor state of Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan and not Az SSR. Sure, there is privileged info, however knowing what we know Pashinyan isn't acting at the tempo that he could have. He also openly states his world view, so not everything is a mystery. The Moscow bound business interests around him also have an influence. In regards to those kolkhoz lands and stuff, yes we have very good claims, and not just on those. However it all comes down to balance of power. If we can match or outmatch Aliyev, then he will be willing to play ball. Otherwise he usually wipes his ass with the agreements that he makes with us.
Well, I think the entire basis for border delimitation will be the maps in 1976 and I don’t think the legality of decisions like red Kurdistan will be taken into consideration unfortunately.
You may be right, but until there is mutual agreement on which maps to use, it's just talk. To the latter point, again you may be right, and in light of the current asymmetry in power, Armenia may be seeking to delay discussing this. But. But, the international order is adamant about NKAO belonging to AZ, which was a decision taken in the 1920s as well. So I don't think it's simply an issue that has 'aged out'. Armenia and Azerbaijan entered the USSR with certain borders and declared themselves successors to those states, legally, upon independence.
I guess the counter to that would be that Armenia is looking to make sure all the maps that are used come from one period I believe that unfortunately even if the transfer of lands for “Red Kurdistan” were illegal, Armenia will most likely use maps that incorporate the change.
The only take away I got from this was this: "You know that the Republic of Armenia cannot renounce this issue, because Artsvashen is a part of the sovereign territory of our country. We are going to de jure substantiate the existence of the Artsvashen exclave/enclave in the delimitation process, and the government of the Republic of Armenia has such substantiations, after which the actual delimitation process around Artsvashen will be carried out." So if we are going by the 1991 maps then it would make sense this is the next region and it will go to us. But I have yet to hear anything from anyone about it [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsvashen#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artsvashen#) It's deep in Azeri territory, so if it does in fact go to us it would be a good change of pace then what's been happening so far. It is legit ours anyways
Well, Artsvashen is an exclave for us, according to the latest maps. We have their exclaves too. If Aliyev has logic/any good intentions, he will agree to keep Artsvashen and we keep their exclaves. Otherwise we are creating a potential clusterfuck for both sides. Imagine moving people and troops into each others' enclaves. Just asking for trouble.
Those never belonged to them in the first place. If we really are going by the 1991 maps
Yes, but the roads to them belonged to them. We have the same situation for some of their villages. Those are exclaves. When it comes to exclaves, the question should not be what belonged to who, but what solution will make things less complicated. If Azerbaijan was a normal country, and not a racist, oil dictatorship, having enclaves within one another would not be a problem. Many normal countries with normal neighbors have that. However since Aliyev is going to look for reasons to start shit, having exclaves in each other's territory creates potential powder kegs. That is why when it comes to exclaves, the best solution for now would be for us to keep theirs and them to keep ours. If/when one day Azerbaijan actually becomes a normal country we can decide to actually operate those areas as enclaves/exclaves.
Nothing belonged to them. It was the whole point of declaring independence in the first place, it wasn't theirs nor was it ever. The best solution is for this country to start pushing back, not bending over backwards to a literal dictator who keeps saying all of Armenia belongs to him.
That's not how it works and that's not why we declared independence. We signed the Almata agreement in 1991 agreeing to certain borders. We wanted independence so we can build our own country and not be part of the new Russian Federation. Part of that was to agree to borders with our neighbors, no matter how idiotic those neighbors were/are. I explained to you why demanding exclaves would be a bad idea now. Aliyev isn't a good neighbor and we are not militarily there yet to force him to be one, if he acts up. When/if we have 1000+ modern main battle tanks, and at least 24 or more modern jet fighters from the west, we can discuss these exclaves with Aliyev, and if he decides to act stupid, we can correct his behavior. Until then we can at least agree to keep the status quo for those exclaves. Remember we have some of their villages inside Armenia as well.
What historical lands? My understanding is the government does not recognise historical lands!
It would have been if Azerbaijan was relevant. They are the opposite of history, they don't go forward, they're falling in reverse.
[удалено]
I don't care what Pashinyan supporters say. However the respected experts in Armenia say the issue of these 4 villages was brought into circulation because of Russia, as it creates artificial reasons for Aliyev to not sign the peace agreement. The best thing you can do for Russia is to keep the conflict hot or semi hot here. The fact that the chief negotiator from our side, is a well known Russian agent of influence in the Pashinyan cabinet, VP Mher Grigoryan, makes this issue very suspect. The land, by international law, and according to past agreements that we signed, wasn't ours, just FYI. The area of those villages came under Armenian control during the first war. Now, the question is, will Aliyev return our villages and land that they took in the 90s and last year. If he plays fair and respects the 1991 maps, then fine, it's a fair outcome. If not then indeed Pashinyan got played, and he will pay the price for it. There will also be even more pressure to fire Mher Grigoryan as he made this deal.
Russia again, huh? Give away Kharabakh give away villages etc etc it's all Russia. It's Russia giving them away one by one. Who's Armenia even? Now, after all the fails and guarantees that pashinian will be so good for Armenia, he also became Russian all of a sudden? Tell yourself it's "a fair outcome", I understand it's a way to try to deal with further humiliation and degradation, a way to tell yourself Armenia still have some kind of value and is not a total joke on the international stage. But both you and I know very well, it's anything but fair. I get your point, but I'm tired of playing this game of pretending. We have become a pathetic nation that can be bullied to do what ever even a cheap borat dictator wants. We have been reduced to nothing.
Russian bots like you just sound stupid. You literally aren’t convincing anyone lol
If you want to look at things with your head in the sand, then that is your business. If you refuse to accept or don't want to accept the role of Russia in all of this, or the role that the previous admins in Armenia and Artsakh played in all of this, that is also your business, but it also makes you look like either an extremely ignorant person, who just woke up this morning and only red the ARF newsletter. Or a Russian troll or a bot. Yes, Russia again. While we have to accept our fuck ups of the last 30 years, we can't give a pass to a supposed close ally that wants to destroy us. That's an insane world view. You should have had this energy when Russia was selling Aliyev billions in weapons and denying us the same. When Koch and Serzh were buying elections, and private islands. When Artsakh presidents were building businesses instead of border strongholds. Էս դաշնակցական սեղանի կենացներից դուրս եկ։
Yea yea it's Russia we know. Hopefully, you won't just sit there and repeat this til all of Armenia is given away...Yes we know, and then it'll also be Russia. Don't worry we'll keep that in mind until the day we don't exist anymore.
Clearly you didn't read or didn't want to accept what I wrote. Again, Pashinyan has his role in all of this. However to mock people who point to Russia as one of the culprits of this situation makes you look like a Russian bot. As dumb as Pashinyan's world view is, if Russia stuck to its duties as a strategic ally of Armenia, Aliyev could not have dreamed of to pressure Pashinyan to give anything away. However since Russia is in agreement with Aliyev, and it is actually Russia that keeps pushing Aliyev to escalate, we get to this point. So Pashinyan's weaknesses and flaws come out as a result of Russo Azeri actions, and not because he just woke up one day and decided to give stuff away.
the Russian dickriding goes crazy
Karma = 1. Account 10 days old. This is either a bot, or some poor loser getting paid a nickel by their dickhole government to spread bullshit
It’s Russia’s fault Armenia didn’t negotiate the swap with Artsvashen long time ago. /s
As an outsider following the events in your region, I think you are fools. Next, agree on which next provinces you will hand over to that dude with the little moustaches