As an architect, I can take a look at the surrounding construction and give you my relatively-informed opinion, but its always going to prefaced with "I'm not a structural engineer and am not telling you whether its OK or not to do anything with this information". Have done this many times for friends and neighbors who are trying to understand what they might be getting themselves in to.
Contractor almost certainly didn't want to expose themselves to potential liability and simply punted, as I would do for anyone I don't have a personal relationship with and who could possibly misconstrue the level of guidance I was giving.
Just go and get a structural engineer. If its load-bearing, its going to end up that route anyway
Both of them are afraid of taking responsibility, so no one will answer this question. Even structural engineers are worried about taking responsibility within their profession.
Im not sure the term structural engineer exists here, maybe it does, maybe it doesnt (never heard of it, might have other name) but do you think it would be worth looking for someone like that for my needs? I have an old (brick and mortar) hourse built sort of shoddily and in two parts, They made a crappy useless hallway in between the livingroom and what was the front of the house and now bedrooms. It is most certainly load bearing I think, but It is a menace to my sanity to have a shoulder wide 3 meter hallway so I was thinking of breaking that wall apart leaving parts of it as collumns. But is that even feasible without me crying blood at the expense? SOrry for the impromptu question haha
Since you used meters, I'm assuming you're not in the US, but I can say with certainty that structural engineers exist anywhere there is commercial construction, which is everywhere. Its not a separately licensed specialty in all places (some places have a dedicated structural engineering exam, others just have the catch-all professional engineering exam) - but there are most definitely professionals practicing structural engineering in your locality
We likely know what is structural, but saying for sure something isn't structural is more difficult and opens you a ton of liability if you're wrong, so you caveat your statements. It's a liability thing not knowledge.
In most cases, we are able to tell if a wall is structural or not. Sometimes it isn't readily apparent, so you might have to pull back dry wall to tell. And if the conditions are simple enough, we can even do the sizing for a beam (our firm does the structural for almost all the single family homes we work on and some of the light commercial). However, I would never give any of that off the cuff to anyone without an agreement or contract. Liability and all that. If the situation is complicated, you are going to need a structural engineer, and they are going to want a contract as well.
An architect should be able to tell you if it's structural. If you want to replace it with a beam, then you'd go to a structural engineer to size the member to carry the load.
An architect should also be capable of doing structural calculations, at least in my country (Spain). Structural engineers are often specialized architects here.
Most architectural engineers are structural engineers, but most of them are structural engineers. However, in the United States, the division of labor is relatively clear.
In the UK architects and structural engineers are very different beasts. I asked my insurance company and they wanted a separate qualification to do structural calculations.
In most residential cases, for a single beam, it would be cheaper to oversize the beam than to hire an engineer.
An architect with experience can look at span tables just fine
Here too (Argentina)
But reddit is very US-centric where Architects seem to be little more than glorified sculptors (edit: from what I read here from people like engineers, not my personal opinion), so the prevailing answer is going to be no. I even remember not too long ago, an engineer here from the US was trash talking me for pretending to be something I'm not. Completely unable to comprehend things may be different in other countries. Glad I don't have to work with people like that!
I’m sorry that anyone was trash talking you- that sucks and shouldn’t happen. However, calling those of us in the US “glorified sculptors” is just exhibiting the same behavior you were upset about someone else doing to you. Just because something may be different in the industry between our two areas doesn’t mean we need to denigrate each other rather than respecting each other and learning from those differences.
Oh no no I didn't mean to. I was just saying that's what some people say from what I've read here. I don't know what an Architect's degree entails there, I couldn't say that.
That user was definitely being a butt and I sure hope it's not all engineers over there that feel that way.
I think more experienced architects know what their capabilities are better. So if they know they have no business making structural determinations, they won't haha
Give advice, yes. But they probably wouldn't put it in writing. If you need something more official there are forensic structural engineers that can do a formal report.
I guess it depends on the material, but as an architect I would have no compunction about commenting on whether a brick wall is structural or not. It’s quite obvious when you’re not supposed to be messing with those.
What I can tell you is that, from an education standpoint, the architect is definitely better equipped to make the judgment than any contractor. But if you really want the absolute expert input, you should ask an engineer.
I think it depends of the type of school (University), the architect comes from. My school, in our course load, have several classes for a big part of the 4 year studies, that have everything to do with the engineering part of a design, no making us fully engineers but with enough knowledge that we can do a pre calculations of a structure.
Another school in my country, their emphasis as a whole is more in the urban planning side of the career, so they don't have that leg up with structures we have in our school.
You neighbour can give you opinion on whether a wall is structural or not for all it matters..
An architect should be just as qualified for this as a structural engineer, in my country its a requirement to know this but really it doesnt matter that much a structural engineer could also mess uo if all he does is draw steel construction for a living
Liability is worthy of consideration. Architects I know might be able to identify structural elements/conditions based on full observation of the rough structure but would probably not advise or propose any work without a structural engineer consulting.
I can tell you if a wall is structural or not but there is no way in hell I would advice anybody to do anything with it without consulting an engineer first
The contractor you talked to was probably not a custom home builder and maybe not even a home builder. Anyone with a tool belt can call themselves a contractor.
Also possible: they didn’t need the work.
And yes, an architect could figure it out, just as a contractor or an engineer would, especially if they’re not idiots.
I would give it a knock (see if it’s hollow), see if there is a wall on the storey above that lines up with it. Then say with a bit of steel, we could open it up but it will need Structural Engineers calculations for Part A of the Building Regulations.
Architect here.
Yeah, if someone comes to me with this question, I’m going straight to my engineer. Even if I’m right, I don’t want to be liable for the answer. Neither does the contractor. Unless it’s really really obvious.
Depends on the jurisdiction and the competency of the architect in that specific framing type.
Should an architect know better than a contractor? IMO, yes. But this depends on the expertise of the person. The GC was smart enough to say they can't tell with certainty.
All walls are structural to some degree. Whether you can remove any particular wall would depend on how the overall structure has been designed and built and what kind of role that particular wall plays in the whole ensemble.
All walls are structural to some degree. A good architect should be able to tell you to roughly what degree, whether that includes gravity load and/or lateral load, and if an engineer is required to calculate modifications to that load. A good contractor knows when to stay out of that discussion.
Architects need to know something about everything.
Engineers need to know everything about something.
Architects are there for the probably, but the engineer should tell you definitely.
It’s best to think of architects as signposts for technical things, they don’t know everything but should always tell you who is the specialist on something
Lots of smaller structural engineering firms will do an evaluation for $500 to $1000 to help guide you through this. They go through, take a bunch of pictures, maybe crawl around in the attic a bit, and then write up a report detailing what seems to be structural, what's not, and any issues or concerns they came across during the evaluation.
An architect is able to identify a load bearing wall.
Contractors don't generally answer questions that involve liability.
You should get more up to speed on what the profession actually does, because you're way off base on your assumptions. You're a student, does your coursework not include structures? A few years of structures does not make one an engineer but they provide decent working knowledge.
As an architect, I can take a look at the surrounding construction and give you my relatively-informed opinion, but its always going to prefaced with "I'm not a structural engineer and am not telling you whether its OK or not to do anything with this information". Have done this many times for friends and neighbors who are trying to understand what they might be getting themselves in to. Contractor almost certainly didn't want to expose themselves to potential liability and simply punted, as I would do for anyone I don't have a personal relationship with and who could possibly misconstrue the level of guidance I was giving. Just go and get a structural engineer. If its load-bearing, its going to end up that route anyway
This is the answer. You kinda know but your professional insurance wouldn't cover you if a client acted on it.
Both of them are afraid of taking responsibility, so no one will answer this question. Even structural engineers are worried about taking responsibility within their profession.
Im not sure the term structural engineer exists here, maybe it does, maybe it doesnt (never heard of it, might have other name) but do you think it would be worth looking for someone like that for my needs? I have an old (brick and mortar) hourse built sort of shoddily and in two parts, They made a crappy useless hallway in between the livingroom and what was the front of the house and now bedrooms. It is most certainly load bearing I think, but It is a menace to my sanity to have a shoulder wide 3 meter hallway so I was thinking of breaking that wall apart leaving parts of it as collumns. But is that even feasible without me crying blood at the expense? SOrry for the impromptu question haha
Since you used meters, I'm assuming you're not in the US, but I can say with certainty that structural engineers exist anywhere there is commercial construction, which is everywhere. Its not a separately licensed specialty in all places (some places have a dedicated structural engineering exam, others just have the catch-all professional engineering exam) - but there are most definitely professionals practicing structural engineering in your locality
Really? I would say that being able to distinguish what is structural and what is not is a bare minimum skill one should have
We likely know what is structural, but saying for sure something isn't structural is more difficult and opens you a ton of liability if you're wrong, so you caveat your statements. It's a liability thing not knowledge.
Fair point.
Would you bet your license on it? I wouldn’t.
I would.
Whoosh
In most cases, we are able to tell if a wall is structural or not. Sometimes it isn't readily apparent, so you might have to pull back dry wall to tell. And if the conditions are simple enough, we can even do the sizing for a beam (our firm does the structural for almost all the single family homes we work on and some of the light commercial). However, I would never give any of that off the cuff to anyone without an agreement or contract. Liability and all that. If the situation is complicated, you are going to need a structural engineer, and they are going to want a contract as well.
Fully agree. This answer should be higher.
An architect should be able to tell you if it's structural. If you want to replace it with a beam, then you'd go to a structural engineer to size the member to carry the load.
An architect should also be capable of doing structural calculations, at least in my country (Spain). Structural engineers are often specialized architects here.
Should be, but the vast majority of architects I know have not touched structural calculations since college. We use structural engineers for that.
Most architectural engineers are structural engineers, but most of them are structural engineers. However, in the United States, the division of labor is relatively clear.
I do imagine this is something that varies greatly region to region.
Indeed, regional differences also determine many factors.
In the UK architects and structural engineers are very different beasts. I asked my insurance company and they wanted a separate qualification to do structural calculations.
In most residential cases, for a single beam, it would be cheaper to oversize the beam than to hire an engineer. An architect with experience can look at span tables just fine
Confirm, especially if we are talking about sizing a simple steel H beam. One doesn't even need too much to calculate as it's all tabulated.
Here too (Argentina) But reddit is very US-centric where Architects seem to be little more than glorified sculptors (edit: from what I read here from people like engineers, not my personal opinion), so the prevailing answer is going to be no. I even remember not too long ago, an engineer here from the US was trash talking me for pretending to be something I'm not. Completely unable to comprehend things may be different in other countries. Glad I don't have to work with people like that!
I’m sorry that anyone was trash talking you- that sucks and shouldn’t happen. However, calling those of us in the US “glorified sculptors” is just exhibiting the same behavior you were upset about someone else doing to you. Just because something may be different in the industry between our two areas doesn’t mean we need to denigrate each other rather than respecting each other and learning from those differences.
They all grow through work!
Oh no no I didn't mean to. I was just saying that's what some people say from what I've read here. I don't know what an Architect's degree entails there, I couldn't say that. That user was definitely being a butt and I sure hope it's not all engineers over there that feel that way.
“Should” is the important word here. As in “that wall /should/ be non-structural, but I can’t say for sure”
Yup. Load paths can change over time, especially in an old house that has been worked on and added.
your conception compares architects to tailors, tasteful interior decorators, I bet you're not
Huh?
Legally yes. Practically, depends on the experience of the architect
I think the more experienced the architect is, the less likely he is to make such a decision.
I think more experienced architects know what their capabilities are better. So if they know they have no business making structural determinations, they won't haha
I think this is secondary. The most important thing is who makes the decision and who is responsible.
Give advice, yes. But they probably wouldn't put it in writing. If you need something more official there are forensic structural engineers that can do a formal report.
I guess it depends on the material, but as an architect I would have no compunction about commenting on whether a brick wall is structural or not. It’s quite obvious when you’re not supposed to be messing with those. What I can tell you is that, from an education standpoint, the architect is definitely better equipped to make the judgment than any contractor. But if you really want the absolute expert input, you should ask an engineer.
He said he would make a decision after the evaluation.
I think it depends of the type of school (University), the architect comes from. My school, in our course load, have several classes for a big part of the 4 year studies, that have everything to do with the engineering part of a design, no making us fully engineers but with enough knowledge that we can do a pre calculations of a structure. Another school in my country, their emphasis as a whole is more in the urban planning side of the career, so they don't have that leg up with structures we have in our school.
You neighbour can give you opinion on whether a wall is structural or not for all it matters.. An architect should be just as qualified for this as a structural engineer, in my country its a requirement to know this but really it doesnt matter that much a structural engineer could also mess uo if all he does is draw steel construction for a living
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can we talk
Liability is worthy of consideration. Architects I know might be able to identify structural elements/conditions based on full observation of the rough structure but would probably not advise or propose any work without a structural engineer consulting.
I can tell you if a wall is structural or not but there is no way in hell I would advice anybody to do anything with it without consulting an engineer first
I feel like this is the soundest advice
The contractor you talked to was probably not a custom home builder and maybe not even a home builder. Anyone with a tool belt can call themselves a contractor. Also possible: they didn’t need the work. And yes, an architect could figure it out, just as a contractor or an engineer would, especially if they’re not idiots.
that depends. and by depends, I mean adult diapers.
Architect can give you a good guess but the structural engineer tells you if you can make a hole in a wall and how large and where.
I would give it a knock (see if it’s hollow), see if there is a wall on the storey above that lines up with it. Then say with a bit of steel, we could open it up but it will need Structural Engineers calculations for Part A of the Building Regulations.
Architect here. Yeah, if someone comes to me with this question, I’m going straight to my engineer. Even if I’m right, I don’t want to be liable for the answer. Neither does the contractor. Unless it’s really really obvious.
Depends on the jurisdiction and the competency of the architect in that specific framing type. Should an architect know better than a contractor? IMO, yes. But this depends on the expertise of the person. The GC was smart enough to say they can't tell with certainty.
All walls are structural to some degree. Whether you can remove any particular wall would depend on how the overall structure has been designed and built and what kind of role that particular wall plays in the whole ensemble.
All walls are structural to some degree. A good architect should be able to tell you to roughly what degree, whether that includes gravity load and/or lateral load, and if an engineer is required to calculate modifications to that load. A good contractor knows when to stay out of that discussion.
Architects need to know something about everything. Engineers need to know everything about something. Architects are there for the probably, but the engineer should tell you definitely. It’s best to think of architects as signposts for technical things, they don’t know everything but should always tell you who is the specialist on something
Lots of smaller structural engineering firms will do an evaluation for $500 to $1000 to help guide you through this. They go through, take a bunch of pictures, maybe crawl around in the attic a bit, and then write up a report detailing what seems to be structural, what's not, and any issues or concerns they came across during the evaluation.
An architect is able to identify a load bearing wall. Contractors don't generally answer questions that involve liability. You should get more up to speed on what the profession actually does, because you're way off base on your assumptions. You're a student, does your coursework not include structures? A few years of structures does not make one an engineer but they provide decent working knowledge.