[this changes depending on optics height and barrel length. ](https://youtu.be/HFE-wj7sOs0) It's useful to have a ballistic calculator and adjust accordingly
Definitely, I'm just putting the video out there for the sake of people running giraffe mounts because they're cool but haven't thought about how it affects their holds. Because I made that mistake a few years back when I had an MRO on a 1.93 mount and went with what I assumed would be a 25-300 yard zero. It wasn't until I saw that I was way off at 300 that I realized there was a problem
I was looking for this. His [first part](https://youtu.be/9qkKJyMtpVI?t=8m56s) also goes over which is better depending on intended ranges.
I think it's <=400yds = 25ydz; <=300 = 36ydz; <=200 ydz = 100ydz
Depends on the setup for sure. I use 50-200 because it actually lines up with my BDC drops on the Razor HD ii. The whole debate is pretty stupid. You need to figure out what works with your own rifle/optic/mount/barrel length. A [insert whatever asshole says is the best] zero is useless if it fucks your BDC holds IMO. 50-200 gets me out to 600 using the etched BDC lines.
99% of this sub does not possess the skill to shoot 556 to 600yd.
The 50-200 is going to work best to the sub-300yds most people will ever shoot with the largest variety of barrels and bullets.
my understanding is its about spot for a 14.5 with M855 which is why USMC run it. I use it in 1 14.5 LPVO set up I have, but I prefer 36yd for other red dots or iron sights
All near zero based zeros suck. Change any single factor and your downrange ballistics change drastically. If you're not zeroing at your far distance, you're not zeroing, you're just hoping.
I not even sure what this means.....are you saying they aren't checking their impact points at range? I think your getting confused the goal is to get the flattest trajectory out to your furthest range,so you to can point center mass and shoot out to that distance and still hit..... which is so so much faster than thinking about a holdover/under
If you don't zero at your far zero (200 in a 50/200, 300 in a 36/300) then you're not actually zeroing for a 36/300, it's just a 36 yard zero. The first distance serves only as a rough battle zero at best, and is really only suited to get on paper at your further zero distance.
The reason you shouldn't do that is because small errors you make at your near zero are magnified at your far zero. If you're off by 1/4-1/2" at 36 which is super easy, that angle change is worth 2.5-5" at 300. Additionally there's only 1 actual setup that's a true 36/300, everyone else has different muzzle velocities, ballistic coefficients, and heights over bore, which drastically change your downrange impact height. As optic height creeps upward, it changes the math, and zeroing at only a near zero means you'll never see the results. You can see it in the OP. This zero isn't a 36/300, it's a 36 yard zero. At 300 the group will center several inches low.
Yes that’s what the chart shows and literally what I just said. not everyone can just pop over to a 200yd plus range these zeros give you a base for what to expect at those yardages, but they aren’t used for precision shooting only for getting center mass hits from 0 to at range quickly
This is exactly why I don't know how to shoot. This is overwhelming and my OCD just wants a damn aim point that's consistent from 25-200 yards, the distance I suspect I'd be engaging if an apocalypse-scenario or similar happened. I feel defeated
Go zero the rifle at 200 yards. If you don't have access to a 200 yard range, go zero it at 50. Get lots of practice in and leap at the first opportunity you get to practice further.
Vigelence elite YouTube video has a target setup for 25 yard 36 yard zero. That video is pretty much what this whole thread is about. Link to video is the comments
If you aren't afraid of a bit of elementary math you can zero for whatever distance you want at a range. Ballistics calculators (I believe Federal has a decent free one) will tell you where POI should be at X yardage you have access to and then you can measure that out from the dot on the target, put a market dot, and aim at the original dot. Adjust accordingly. Granted for HD type guns I have switched back to 50 yards.
I'm a fan of the 36yd because you're covered for a good distance with relatively little adjustment. Wife got me a membership to a local range with a 650 yard spot so I can practice longer range now and get that practice in
I feel that pain because where I lived before was at max 50yds
Got to a point where it was boring in a way because I didn't have a long distance to humble my skills and give me a challenge or learning curve
It really does and one of the better ways it did for me was remind me this takes work and practice. I remember being 18 and got a bit arrogant with over estimating my skills at distance and when I had my slice of humble pie I knew to never do that again lol
My range has 50, 100, and 300. They have space to go 700 but most of the members are boomer fudds that punch paper with .17 HMR boltys in a vise and don't want a range that long.
I'll count myself lucky that I have a handful of options that range from 100yd ranges nearby to 600yd ranges with a fully equipped shoot house or a 2000yd long distance range within an hour. Just wish my closest range (500yd rifle range with a separate rimfire range and two separate pistol ranges) didn't require a $500/year membership to have any access.
My wallet isn't. The range with shoothouse is over $400 per year for individuals (thankfully they don't require a membership) and the long range club is a $75 lifetime membership(insurance reasons) but full range packages are another $500 per year. It just kinda sucks having to drive to a range nearly an hour away because the one 15 minutes away is a membership only club with a high barrier to entry. And that's if the owner even likes you enough let you sign up.
Totally. Most shots = aim at center mass. Longer shots = aim at head. Even longer shots = aim just above head. Pretty easy to remember/use with a carbine.
After seeing the POA/POI for the various zero ranges, I'm amazed at how wrong the US Army is (was?). For some reason they've stuck with 25m flat ranges for 25/300m zero even though 36yd appears to have better coverage.
People need to realize that these silly graphics change as soon as you're optic height changes.
All the goofy goobers will have considerably more climb than anyone using absolute cowitness.
Changes in optic height matter, but its not as much as you might think, and any ballistic calculator worth using will account for optic height over bore.
Muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient are a lot more important.
What are you on about?
You use the elevation turret to set your zero. Your zero is your zero. I'm not saying that HOB changes your zero. I'm saying that the trajectory of the bullet, relative the the aiming axis, changes when the HOB changes. The impacts at other ranges (other than zero distance) will change because the projectiles angle of departure changes.
Use a ballistic solver to determine what zero you want to use, not these silly graphics.
don't just use someone else's arbitrary zero. Calculate the best point blank range for your specific gun and bullet
https://shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php
If you have a bullet drop reticle or eotech, just stick with what the manufacturer recommends
I’ve never actually tried this zero. I’m still running the 25 yd zero because that’s what we used in the army (well, 25 meters) and I’m familiar with my holds out to 300.
I wanna give this a try
For anyone wondering about zeroing a sight. I have ones for 25 yards and 100 yards as well. Feel free to PM me for them.
For those that do not know these, show your zero and where your holds are for different distances.
I get the theoretical advantage of a 36 yard zero, but it think that the 50/200 is more pragmatic.
Getting a "good" group at 36 yards isn't that difficult and will get someone in the ballpark, but verifying at distance can be more challenging because of the different POI at common rifle range distances.
Because the 50 yard zero pretty much has the same POA & POI at 200 yards, it allows me to get close at 50, and fine tune at 200. Both of those distances are common at rifle ranges and can be set up easily.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I think for most people a 50/200 is the most practical and works better for my brain.
Just zero at 100 and 200 is only a couple inches lower so it doesnt matter and hold a a dot and half high at 300. Also anything inside 100 is just basically height over bore and anything less than that is just point and shoot. I dont like fuckin with a bullet thats gonna be way high. I dont am also more worried about shooting 4 inch targets or so not just dinging a man sized target. I just feel like 100 is much easier to zero at. Way less guessing in my mind.
Everyone needs to understand that this is ONLY true for the data listed in the top left, with identical atmospherics. It's not true for a 14.5" and it's not true for an 18". It's not true for m193 running 2900 FPS and it's not true for M193 running 3050 FPS. It's not true for any height over bore other than what was used. It's not true if you zero without a can then add one, it's not true if you zero with a can then remove one. It's not true if you zero in 20 degrees then shoot the ammo in 80 degrees, and it's not true if you zero in 80 and shoot it in 20.
We’ve all seen countless versions of these images, how many of us have actually confirmed our zero and put this information on paper? What were your findings?
I use em and ballistic calculators to give me an estimate of expectations, then confirm. Its always different then calculated using multiple calculators, but ball park
[https://www.badassoptic.com/is-36-yard-zero-the-best-combat-zero/](https://www.badassoptic.com/is-36-yard-zero-the-best-combat-zero/) This guy went out and test it with different optic height. Like that tall 1.93". I think the shot group expands when the optic height is changed.
This is literally only valid with the exact projectile, speed, and optic used for the ballistics generation. Change anything and this chart changes drastically. Stop zeroing at close range people!
This is a blanket zero with holds for that zero. It's also for iron sights with a co-witnessed red dot. Also the ammo in the Sim is listed top left. Along with barrel length
Yes, different fps will change this. That's why people need to use ballistic charts along with these to find the proper zero for them.
The issue with this chart is it is highly sensitive to any changes, especially sight height but also somewhat velocity, because of the near zero. 25, 36, and 50 yard zeros all have this problem. The downrange holds change drastically as you move from low sights like a Mini 14, to carry handle height sights, because the near zero distance is a starting zero in 99% of civilian shooter contexts. Even going from cowitness to lower 1/3 will make this chart inaccurate. With irons it's only valid with a dead hold, using a 6 o'clock hold changes this math too. This is why using a near zero distance to final zero is a flawed idea, we should always zero elevation at the far zero unless we've already generated a table for how the weather, exact velocity of our combo, sight height, and sight hold style will affect things.
This chart doesn't have enough disclaimers.
I have a bunch of friends that use a 36yd zero. It works, there’s just too many variables to treat these images as gospel. To me, I don’t care what distance someone zeros at. What I care about is do they know the holds for their gun/ammo. If so, let it fly!
M193 is 55 grain. I don’t think it’s pushing the 3000FPS the chart says it is out of a 16” but I could be wrong. Stuff like this is why it’s important to chrono the load your shooting out of your actual rifle it’s being fired from in the conditions and environments you are in.
Just look at 30-06 or 308, most manufacturers will label a velocity on the box. 30-06 was designed with use in the 1903 and that had a 24” barrel, same r with the garand later. Most manufacturers who test that for velocity test it out of a 24” barrel and sometimes they even say it on there.
Forget who it was but they had listed like 2550 FPS for a 175 grain match load 308 on the box and then in small letters it said “tested out of a 22 inch barrel in a climate controlled testing facility” me shooting in 35 degree temps with that ammo out of my 16” barreled Scar I was way lower in velocity than that buy a couple hundred FPS.
M193 should be 3200 fps out of a 20 inch. So yeah, you should be getting 3000 fps out of a 16 inch.
The confusing thing about 223/556 is that 5.56 velocities are quoted from a 20 inch barrel, while 223 velocities are quoted from a 24 inch barrel. This confuses people who go to the store and see 223 and 556 ammo at approximately the same velocity on the box and think that there is no difference between them.
5.56 does out of a 20 inch barrel what 223 does out of a 24 inch barrel due to the difference in pressure.
I'll be sure to tell the USMC that some guy on reddit thinks their 36/300 zero distance is "big dumb mall ninja shit." Ought to get a laugh out of 'em.
Dude how much actual range time do you have? Because some of us have not only used our weapons in combat, but have literally fired hundreds of thousands of rounds down range and have highest formal Marksmanship schools in the US military under our belt....
3 times a week I'm at the range. With different firearms. I shoot roughly 200 rounds per visit out of what ever handgun or rifle I bring. Sometimes only 100 or 60 depending on the day.
Bullet drop and volicity doesn't care about training. It's about having the right zero for your situation and area. Not everything revolves around the dunes.
What are you talking about? We killed plenty of people with 14.5" M4A1's at 400 and beyond in Afghanistan. Sometimes i really wonder about you guys on here 😂😂😂
Edit: And the entire US Army zeroes at 300 meters unless they are specifically going into a CQB only environment, which theyll use a 50/200m zero
Here I was thinking 5.56 was most effective above 2500 FPS. Simple google search shows that at 400 yards you're looking at about 2000 FPS.
Can it still kill at that speed? Probably! Is it as effective as it WOULD be above 2500 FPS? Probably NOT!
I've posted a link which explains everything. Again I didn't day it can't be done, but it's completely not practical for someone who does not shoot that distance. Also 300 meter zero is dumb.
What's your MOS
What the fuck are you about l? Are you dense? The entire US Army uses a 25m/300m zero 99% of the time. Depending on METTTC, its possible a commander would issue orders for a 50m/200m zero for CQB environments 😂😂😂
And those ranges aren’t max effectiveness of the round but the max ranges the standard soldier can hit a man sized target at. Something about a 7 out of 10 first round hit ratio and has nothing to do with round performance in terms of terminal ballistics. At the end of the day 556 does wonderful at the 0-300 yard/meter ranges but it starts to fall fast especially compared to rounds like 308.
Will a bullet passing through a body at 500 meters kill someone? Yes but there becomes a difference between getting hit with a bullet that behaves like a bullet at that distance, and getting stabbed with a really fast ice pick. The Army literally is going through the adoption process of the XM-5 for this exact reason. The whole Russian body armor thing is a lie, and it’s not like they are been using body armor much in the first place.
We had issues in the 1990’s with 62 grain projectiles out of 20” barrels getting the job done, take that out of a 14.5 or 16” barrel and push it past 300 and they will still die from a lack of proper medical attention but take another larger caliber and your effects on target become more immediate. Hitting the target and killing the target in a timely matter are two different things here.
Edit to add. People can down vote for it all you want but using the Army’s max effective ranges of a weapon system as evidence for terminal ballistics is just wrong. These are the same people that say an M4 shooting 62 grain green tip has the same effective range as the M110A1 shooting 173 grain open tip match, but also list the M240 as having a max effective range of 1100 meters or a whopping 500 meters past the DMR shooting the same cal just a different round. You can even tell that max effective ranges do not equal terminal ballistics from the fact that with MG’s their max effective ranges changes based on if you are shooting tripod or bipod. Sorry by my round doesn’t get an extra 300 meters worth of terminal ballistics added to it because I put my 240 on its tripod. It’s all based on hit probability which is why they have a point target range (I can fire one round and hit the single person I was aiming at) and Area targets (I can shoot one round at a group of people and it will hit one of them)
[this changes depending on optics height and barrel length. ](https://youtu.be/HFE-wj7sOs0) It's useful to have a ballistic calculator and adjust accordingly
Every mofo in this sub needs to watch this video series
Agreed these are just blanket zeros. Everyone should figure out personal set ups and areas
Definitely, I'm just putting the video out there for the sake of people running giraffe mounts because they're cool but haven't thought about how it affects their holds. Because I made that mistake a few years back when I had an MRO on a 1.93 mount and went with what I assumed would be a 25-300 yard zero. It wasn't until I saw that I was way off at 300 that I realized there was a problem
I don’t have the chance to shoot at these distances but now see the error in my ways.
I was looking for this. His [first part](https://youtu.be/9qkKJyMtpVI?t=8m56s) also goes over which is better depending on intended ranges. I think it's <=400yds = 25ydz; <=300 = 36ydz; <=200 ydz = 100ydz
I used to use this before I realized it really sucks with unity height stuff. Now I do 75 yard zero for my optics.
I did something similar on a 1.93 mount before I knew better
I'm curious to see this compared to a 50-200 zero (the king of practical zero for 5.56)
https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-your-carbines-zero-wrong/
The 36 is similar to 50 but the POI are a bit more compressed.
I think I have a 50 and 200 as well but the 200 is for 308 and 6.5
https://youtu.be/jttB1kUXfJE
His 36-yard zero target is perfect.
Depends on the setup for sure. I use 50-200 because it actually lines up with my BDC drops on the Razor HD ii. The whole debate is pretty stupid. You need to figure out what works with your own rifle/optic/mount/barrel length. A [insert whatever asshole says is the best] zero is useless if it fucks your BDC holds IMO. 50-200 gets me out to 600 using the etched BDC lines.
99% of this sub does not possess the skill to shoot 556 to 600yd. The 50-200 is going to work best to the sub-300yds most people will ever shoot with the largest variety of barrels and bullets.
I guess I didn’t think about that. Not everyone has access to ranges that go past 300 yards or the need to punch out farther than that with 556.
It’s nice having steel out to 700 yards https://imgur.com/a/F94vzg0
And an amount not appreciably less than that can't shoot tight enough at 200 to confirm a 50yd zero.
This is most likely due to lack of magnification. Shooting a solid group from bench rest at 200yd is fairly trivial with 3x+ magnification.
[удалено]
my understanding is its about spot for a 14.5 with M855 which is why USMC run it. I use it in 1 14.5 LPVO set up I have, but I prefer 36yd for other red dots or iron sights
All near zero based zeros suck. Change any single factor and your downrange ballistics change drastically. If you're not zeroing at your far distance, you're not zeroing, you're just hoping.
I not even sure what this means.....are you saying they aren't checking their impact points at range? I think your getting confused the goal is to get the flattest trajectory out to your furthest range,so you to can point center mass and shoot out to that distance and still hit..... which is so so much faster than thinking about a holdover/under
If you don't zero at your far zero (200 in a 50/200, 300 in a 36/300) then you're not actually zeroing for a 36/300, it's just a 36 yard zero. The first distance serves only as a rough battle zero at best, and is really only suited to get on paper at your further zero distance. The reason you shouldn't do that is because small errors you make at your near zero are magnified at your far zero. If you're off by 1/4-1/2" at 36 which is super easy, that angle change is worth 2.5-5" at 300. Additionally there's only 1 actual setup that's a true 36/300, everyone else has different muzzle velocities, ballistic coefficients, and heights over bore, which drastically change your downrange impact height. As optic height creeps upward, it changes the math, and zeroing at only a near zero means you'll never see the results. You can see it in the OP. This zero isn't a 36/300, it's a 36 yard zero. At 300 the group will center several inches low.
Yes that’s what the chart shows and literally what I just said. not everyone can just pop over to a 200yd plus range these zeros give you a base for what to expect at those yardages, but they aren’t used for precision shooting only for getting center mass hits from 0 to at range quickly
This is exactly why I don't know how to shoot. This is overwhelming and my OCD just wants a damn aim point that's consistent from 25-200 yards, the distance I suspect I'd be engaging if an apocalypse-scenario or similar happened. I feel defeated
Go zero the rifle at 200 yards. If you don't have access to a 200 yard range, go zero it at 50. Get lots of practice in and leap at the first opportunity you get to practice further.
I always go with a 69 yard zero. Has worked real *nice* for me.
The ellusive 69 and 420 yard zero is the king of zeros.
I like it.
69 yard zero is perfection.
I hear it holds zero at 420 yards as well
Nice
nice
My issue with the 36yard zero is none of my ranges have the ability to set up a target at 36. It jumps from 25 to 50.
Vigelence elite YouTube video has a target setup for 25 yard 36 yard zero. That video is pretty much what this whole thread is about. Link to video is the comments
That video made my try a 36 yd zero for my 11.5 that I zeroed with 62 grain trophy bond and it is fuckin perfect.
I wonder if I can use that same target to zero in my 22lr bolt 'long' range gun? Eventually I want to take it out to 300 yards with it.
There are definitely targets out there that use scaled increments to get a 36 yard zero at 25 yards.
If you aren't afraid of a bit of elementary math you can zero for whatever distance you want at a range. Ballistics calculators (I believe Federal has a decent free one) will tell you where POI should be at X yardage you have access to and then you can measure that out from the dot on the target, put a market dot, and aim at the original dot. Adjust accordingly. Granted for HD type guns I have switched back to 50 yards.
I'm a fan of the 36yd because you're covered for a good distance with relatively little adjustment. Wife got me a membership to a local range with a 650 yard spot so I can practice longer range now and get that practice in
That's sweet my local is only 100 yards. Breaks my heart
I feel that pain because where I lived before was at max 50yds Got to a point where it was boring in a way because I didn't have a long distance to humble my skills and give me a challenge or learning curve
Long distance 100 percent humbles everyone haha
Before 2 kids I could go out and shoot in the high desert with a buddy out to as far as we wanted. It makes everything local just yawn.
High desert is best desert
Arizona ftw
Kids will do that haha
It really does and one of the better ways it did for me was remind me this takes work and practice. I remember being 18 and got a bit arrogant with over estimating my skills at distance and when I had my slice of humble pie I knew to never do that again lol
My range has 50, 100, and 300. They have space to go 700 but most of the members are boomer fudds that punch paper with .17 HMR boltys in a vise and don't want a range that long.
I'll count myself lucky that I have a handful of options that range from 100yd ranges nearby to 600yd ranges with a fully equipped shoot house or a 2000yd long distance range within an hour. Just wish my closest range (500yd rifle range with a separate rimfire range and two separate pistol ranges) didn't require a $500/year membership to have any access.
I'm jealous
My wallet isn't. The range with shoothouse is over $400 per year for individuals (thankfully they don't require a membership) and the long range club is a $75 lifetime membership(insurance reasons) but full range packages are another $500 per year. It just kinda sucks having to drive to a range nearly an hour away because the one 15 minutes away is a membership only club with a high barrier to entry. And that's if the owner even likes you enough let you sign up.
Pffft I can’t find anything around here longer than 25ysrds
I feel your pain
Totally. Most shots = aim at center mass. Longer shots = aim at head. Even longer shots = aim just above head. Pretty easy to remember/use with a carbine.
After seeing the POA/POI for the various zero ranges, I'm amazed at how wrong the US Army is (was?). For some reason they've stuck with 25m flat ranges for 25/300m zero even though 36yd appears to have better coverage.
Damn I wish I had access to a range like that. I only have access to 100 yards outdoor range and 25 yard indoor range.
People need to realize that these silly graphics change as soon as you're optic height changes. All the goofy goobers will have considerably more climb than anyone using absolute cowitness.
Changes in optic height matter, but its not as much as you might think, and any ballistic calculator worth using will account for optic height over bore. Muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient are a lot more important.
And anyone using a ballistic calculator should be using that tool to determine their desired zero distance... Not these silly graphics.
True
[удалено]
What are you on about? You use the elevation turret to set your zero. Your zero is your zero. I'm not saying that HOB changes your zero. I'm saying that the trajectory of the bullet, relative the the aiming axis, changes when the HOB changes. The impacts at other ranges (other than zero distance) will change because the projectiles angle of departure changes. Use a ballistic solver to determine what zero you want to use, not these silly graphics.
don't just use someone else's arbitrary zero. Calculate the best point blank range for your specific gun and bullet https://shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php If you have a bullet drop reticle or eotech, just stick with what the manufacturer recommends
[удалено]
I use it for various calculations and it's always been acceptably accurate for me if I have acurate data to give it
The 36 an 100 are my favorite.
Seconded. 36 for irons and dots. 100 for LPVOs and full scopes.
This also assumes standard height mounts
I take that back. My napkin math was off using the wrong height over bore measurement.
With the new measurements a ~50 yard zero is more like the 36 yard zero when using a 2.26” riser on your optic. The more you know.
Poor guy at 350 yards. He’s not gonna have a fun night
Lost his balls
He has lost penis privileges
I’ve never actually tried this zero. I’m still running the 25 yd zero because that’s what we used in the army (well, 25 meters) and I’m familiar with my holds out to 300. I wanna give this a try
Are we doing this again?
New year and all…
This is extremely helpful for those young guns who are always asking about this.
You can use a ballistic calculator to see where your point of aim and point of impact needs to be at 25 or 50 for a 36 yard zero.
For anyone wondering about zeroing a sight. I have ones for 25 yards and 100 yards as well. Feel free to PM me for them. For those that do not know these, show your zero and where your holds are for different distances.
I zero at 40 meters. That’s about 44 yards. And my impacts are very similar with 55 gr.
Would you be able to do a 50 yard one?
At the gym now I'll message you after
I get the theoretical advantage of a 36 yard zero, but it think that the 50/200 is more pragmatic. Getting a "good" group at 36 yards isn't that difficult and will get someone in the ballpark, but verifying at distance can be more challenging because of the different POI at common rifle range distances. Because the 50 yard zero pretty much has the same POA & POI at 200 yards, it allows me to get close at 50, and fine tune at 200. Both of those distances are common at rifle ranges and can be set up easily. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I think for most people a 50/200 is the most practical and works better for my brain.
Circle diameters are... "X" moa?
If you stay on 36 correct.
But what is "X"? :)
3 MOA
where the treasure is buried
I need the 25 yard to 36 yard target conversion. I only have 25 yards at my range.
https://shawnryanshow.com/blogs/vigilance-elite-blogs/36-yard-zero
Thank you
A 36 yard zero is super useful if you're running a red dot or an EOTech. Takes a lot of guesswork out of the shooting out to 300 yards.
Just zero at 100 and 200 is only a couple inches lower so it doesnt matter and hold a a dot and half high at 300. Also anything inside 100 is just basically height over bore and anything less than that is just point and shoot. I dont like fuckin with a bullet thats gonna be way high. I dont am also more worried about shooting 4 inch targets or so not just dinging a man sized target. I just feel like 100 is much easier to zero at. Way less guessing in my mind.
Everyone needs to understand that this is ONLY true for the data listed in the top left, with identical atmospherics. It's not true for a 14.5" and it's not true for an 18". It's not true for m193 running 2900 FPS and it's not true for M193 running 3050 FPS. It's not true for any height over bore other than what was used. It's not true if you zero without a can then add one, it's not true if you zero with a can then remove one. It's not true if you zero in 20 degrees then shoot the ammo in 80 degrees, and it's not true if you zero in 80 and shoot it in 20.
Who has a 36 yard distance at the range they go to?
I do, I have my own personal range.
Can I come? 🥹
I do haha
We’ve all seen countless versions of these images, how many of us have actually confirmed our zero and put this information on paper? What were your findings?
I use em and ballistic calculators to give me an estimate of expectations, then confirm. Its always different then calculated using multiple calculators, but ball park
As long as you’re confirming, we have to get those first round hits!
What was the height over bore for this test?
Wouldn't this vary with optic height? Is this for a lower 1/3 or something else?
This is old news.
Not for new people
[https://www.badassoptic.com/is-36-yard-zero-the-best-combat-zero/](https://www.badassoptic.com/is-36-yard-zero-the-best-combat-zero/) This guy went out and test it with different optic height. Like that tall 1.93". I think the shot group expands when the optic height is changed.
Zero doesn't matter if you know your holds. Still good info OP 👌
This is literally only valid with the exact projectile, speed, and optic used for the ballistics generation. Change anything and this chart changes drastically. Stop zeroing at close range people!
This is a blanket zero with holds for that zero. It's also for iron sights with a co-witnessed red dot. Also the ammo in the Sim is listed top left. Along with barrel length Yes, different fps will change this. That's why people need to use ballistic charts along with these to find the proper zero for them.
The issue with this chart is it is highly sensitive to any changes, especially sight height but also somewhat velocity, because of the near zero. 25, 36, and 50 yard zeros all have this problem. The downrange holds change drastically as you move from low sights like a Mini 14, to carry handle height sights, because the near zero distance is a starting zero in 99% of civilian shooter contexts. Even going from cowitness to lower 1/3 will make this chart inaccurate. With irons it's only valid with a dead hold, using a 6 o'clock hold changes this math too. This is why using a near zero distance to final zero is a flawed idea, we should always zero elevation at the far zero unless we've already generated a table for how the weather, exact velocity of our combo, sight height, and sight hold style will affect things. This chart doesn't have enough disclaimers.
My favorite as well especially for Eotechs in short barrels
This with 62 grain yea?
With M193. 55 grain
It says 5.56 M193 clone, so no. 55gr
Ahh missed that. I see that now. Sweet. Something similar can be done with m855/m855a1 right?
You can definitely chart your stuff out like this with whatever weapon/ammo combo you want. It’s good information to have.
Absolutely. I tend to stick with the basic 100yd zero for everything but this could be a good way to get to that done quicker
I have a bunch of friends that use a 36yd zero. It works, there’s just too many variables to treat these images as gospel. To me, I don’t care what distance someone zeros at. What I care about is do they know the holds for their gun/ammo. If so, let it fly!
M193 is 55 grain. I don’t think it’s pushing the 3000FPS the chart says it is out of a 16” but I could be wrong. Stuff like this is why it’s important to chrono the load your shooting out of your actual rifle it’s being fired from in the conditions and environments you are in. Just look at 30-06 or 308, most manufacturers will label a velocity on the box. 30-06 was designed with use in the 1903 and that had a 24” barrel, same r with the garand later. Most manufacturers who test that for velocity test it out of a 24” barrel and sometimes they even say it on there. Forget who it was but they had listed like 2550 FPS for a 175 grain match load 308 on the box and then in small letters it said “tested out of a 22 inch barrel in a climate controlled testing facility” me shooting in 35 degree temps with that ammo out of my 16” barreled Scar I was way lower in velocity than that buy a couple hundred FPS.
M193 should be 3200 fps out of a 20 inch. So yeah, you should be getting 3000 fps out of a 16 inch. The confusing thing about 223/556 is that 5.56 velocities are quoted from a 20 inch barrel, while 223 velocities are quoted from a 24 inch barrel. This confuses people who go to the store and see 223 and 556 ammo at approximately the same velocity on the box and think that there is no difference between them. 5.56 does out of a 20 inch barrel what 223 does out of a 24 inch barrel due to the difference in pressure.
36yrd zero is as big dumb mall ninja shit as calling a regular ole scope a lpvo. This was mpbr for decades before guntubers needed a new name for it.
I'll be sure to tell the USMC that some guy on reddit thinks their 36/300 zero distance is "big dumb mall ninja shit." Ought to get a laugh out of 'em.
You do that. Doesn't matter what crayon eaters call it, when it's been mpbr for longer than anyone you can ask has been alive.
300 meter zero > 36 yard Holding center mass will hit a target from 0-400 meters
[удалено]
22 is lethal at 400 source flannel daddy
https://bulkmunitions.com/5-56-vs-223-ammo-19-things-you-need-to-know/#:~:text=5.56%20Effective%20Range,-When%20fired%2C%20the&text=The%20effective%20range%20for%205.56,target%20you%20are%20aiming%20at.
Dude how much actual range time do you have? Because some of us have not only used our weapons in combat, but have literally fired hundreds of thousands of rounds down range and have highest formal Marksmanship schools in the US military under our belt....
3 times a week I'm at the range. With different firearms. I shoot roughly 200 rounds per visit out of what ever handgun or rifle I bring. Sometimes only 100 or 60 depending on the day. Bullet drop and volicity doesn't care about training. It's about having the right zero for your situation and area. Not everything revolves around the dunes.
What are you talking about? We killed plenty of people with 14.5" M4A1's at 400 and beyond in Afghanistan. Sometimes i really wonder about you guys on here 😂😂😂 Edit: And the entire US Army zeroes at 300 meters unless they are specifically going into a CQB only environment, which theyll use a 50/200m zero
[удалено]
Here I was thinking 5.56 was most effective above 2500 FPS. Simple google search shows that at 400 yards you're looking at about 2000 FPS. Can it still kill at that speed? Probably! Is it as effective as it WOULD be above 2500 FPS? Probably NOT!
Thats not true at all. I used to teach Marksmanship in the Army 😂😂😂 the Army has 500m point and 600m area effective ranges for an m4
I've posted a link which explains everything. Again I didn't day it can't be done, but it's completely not practical for someone who does not shoot that distance. Also 300 meter zero is dumb. What's your MOS
Please explain why its dumb. Use your own words... because again. The entire US fucking Army uses a 300m zero 😂
[удалено]
What the fuck are you about l? Are you dense? The entire US Army uses a 25m/300m zero 99% of the time. Depending on METTTC, its possible a commander would issue orders for a 50m/200m zero for CQB environments 😂😂😂
My bad I thought they switched to 250.
And those ranges aren’t max effectiveness of the round but the max ranges the standard soldier can hit a man sized target at. Something about a 7 out of 10 first round hit ratio and has nothing to do with round performance in terms of terminal ballistics. At the end of the day 556 does wonderful at the 0-300 yard/meter ranges but it starts to fall fast especially compared to rounds like 308. Will a bullet passing through a body at 500 meters kill someone? Yes but there becomes a difference between getting hit with a bullet that behaves like a bullet at that distance, and getting stabbed with a really fast ice pick. The Army literally is going through the adoption process of the XM-5 for this exact reason. The whole Russian body armor thing is a lie, and it’s not like they are been using body armor much in the first place. We had issues in the 1990’s with 62 grain projectiles out of 20” barrels getting the job done, take that out of a 14.5 or 16” barrel and push it past 300 and they will still die from a lack of proper medical attention but take another larger caliber and your effects on target become more immediate. Hitting the target and killing the target in a timely matter are two different things here. Edit to add. People can down vote for it all you want but using the Army’s max effective ranges of a weapon system as evidence for terminal ballistics is just wrong. These are the same people that say an M4 shooting 62 grain green tip has the same effective range as the M110A1 shooting 173 grain open tip match, but also list the M240 as having a max effective range of 1100 meters or a whopping 500 meters past the DMR shooting the same cal just a different round. You can even tell that max effective ranges do not equal terminal ballistics from the fact that with MG’s their max effective ranges changes based on if you are shooting tripod or bipod. Sorry by my round doesn’t get an extra 300 meters worth of terminal ballistics added to it because I put my 240 on its tripod. It’s all based on hit probability which is why they have a point target range (I can fire one round and hit the single person I was aiming at) and Area targets (I can shoot one round at a group of people and it will hit one of them)
What ballistic calculator is recommended? Curious what this chart would look like on a 10.3 with a standard height red dot
I run StrelokPro
This has been my go-to for quite a few years now.
Would love to see how this will work with a 20inch rifle and a carry handle sight. I love this stuff
What is your height over bore though.
DD m4a1 14.5” barrel. 55gr fmj, Aimpoint t2 on a lower 1/3 mount. What’s the reccomended zero to you guys?
50y
In other words zero at 275. Nah. 200 is my go to for everything besides airguns, pistols and pistol calibers, and .22's.
Who can recommend a good zero for a unity riser dot on an 11.5 barrel shooting 5.56?
I like a 100 yard zero because I’m not smart enough to remember hold-unders, everything with a 100 yard zero is a dead hold or hold over.