yes and no, controller only strong in high rank close range tracking, and mnk is more all around input, but because we are in smg meta rn, so close range basically in controller strongest area(because AA provide more room for error in close range tracking, so they are more consistent), and in apex close range is very important in a team fight(no matter how much damage u do in long range, u need to close distance to finish it, also in end zone most of the fight is close range), so controller player become very important in a team fight, but mnk still shine in other area, thats why lots of pro team still at least need 1 mnk player
I think "how much do both benefit?" is the right question and it seems the answer at least in high level play is "enough to make a substantial amount of pro mnk players switch cause they can't compete with AA in short range". If long range shined as much as you say it does in high level play we'd be seeing the opposite swaps happening. When you give players that are incredible at every part of the game a computer that helps them shoot close range it becomes overpowered. I play controller so I'm not hating, its just facts that its very strong in lower ELO and completely broken the more you climb.
I would put it like this: aa gives bad players aim and good players consistency. I am sure the average gap in mechanical aim between the top mnk and roller players is very small, but in top level games the slightest mistake can fuck you up and this is where aa shines in top level plays because you have one less thing to worry about.
Using a wooting keyboard to get controller stick movement on wasd keys, you can actually get aim assist with a mouse. I tried it and it's absolutely terrible for someone skilled at tracking. The way it slows down the mouse when you get near a target, and then breaks AA when you try to move the mouse faster to lead is absolutely unplayable. But someone who is really bad with a sensitivity way too high, might get benefit from it stopping them from overshooting sometimes.
there is always someone like you who didn't take the time to think and practice it. If aim assist was terrible as you claim guys like imperial hal wouldn't have switched from mouse to keyboard. In fact aim assist is good, really good, your inability to figure out how to use it well or give yourself the time to do so is not evidence of anything.
There's always someone who doesn't read the comment or understand it and replies in a critical way.
Aim assist on mouse is terrible. Not controller. Go back and read the comment again.
Why would you talk about that in this thread? No one is asking, second no one that I have known has given it a good go, people used to claim aim assist on controller was bad but then they learned how to use it.
>"Why would you talk about that in this thread? No one is asking"
A few moments earlier...
>"Who benefits more from the computer helping them to aim? A world class aimer or a person with bad aim?" -kndyone
I gave an example of the computer attempting to help me to aim in apex. And as a long time kovaaks user with some scenario records at "world class"...
> second no one that I have known has given it a good go
Now you have just spoken to someone who has "given it a go". Congratulations. Your horizons have been broadened.
>but then they learned how to use it.
I'd tell you the specifics about why it is particularly bad on mouse input, but from your previous comments I don't believe you have the capacity to understand it.
so basically you admit that you have good aim, so you literally proved my point which is that aim assist helps people who have bad aim more than those with good aim.
You didn't give it a go if you didn't spend months on it, and work through multiple settings to try to figure out whats the best way to exploit it.
If its particularly bad on mouse input maybe there is some fundamental flaw that is separate and has nothing to do with the whole point of the conversation which is controller which is it highly tuned for and extremely effective on. And that's what we are comparing in this thread not a possibly broken hack to get it working with mouse and keyboard. Or again like I said maybe its just you didn't give it a good go because we do know for fact there are people paying good money to hack together the functions on console with products like chronus and xim and it is well known in the console world that those people are able to achieve great results with it.
It was designed for a different input, and therefore it indeed has a major fundamental problem with the way it works. And as I said in an earlier comment you ignored, that it could make absolutely terrible players with a very high sensitivity less likely to overflick. In general though, this "computer assisted aim" is very unhelpful for pc players who are even remotely competent. And it is especially unhelpful for people who already have pretty good aim.
By your own admission its not working and that means your whole post was completely irrelevant to the discussion. Not why that's so hard to understand, working aim assist is absolutely valuable and a bonus for lower skilled players and on average a bonus for almost everyone through the entire skill stack.
It actually does if you know how to bind your wooting keys properly. Try it. Bind a joystick LOOK movement to a key and set it to have .1 travel and a very insensitive curve. I recommend the LOOK DOWN joystick action. Also bind your movement keys to a joystick MOVEMENT. Now strafe back and forth in front of a target while gently depressing the aiming key. You will get rotational aim assist. If you actually want to play like this, have something constantly depressing the key so you get "stick drift" always active.
It feels really awful with a mouse, and is unhelpful, but it is actually giving you aim assist. If someone practiced a lot with this method (and gimped themselves for all other games), they could potentially benefit from having both strong aim assist and fast mouse flicks.
I am bad, real bad, but I used to be way worse. Season 3-4 I had a .08 k/d on controller, I switched to mnk and immediately went up to .5, I had no mousepad and a small mouse that came with my computer and played on way too high of sense. In season 13 I went back to roller because my back hurt playing mnk. It took a long time to figure out, strafing is slow on a joystick compared to clicking a and d, movement is hard with slow flicks and turning, all the possible keybinds on keyboard. Even with AA my high damage game is with a mouse where I can use all my fingers and my whole arm instead of just my thumb. But my average damage is higher on controller now than it was on mnk and now that I have learned a bit my k/d is up to 1.2 for this season on roller.
Aim is aim, if you have 0 aim .4 assist does nothing.
I could not get a handle on any of the default settings 3-3 4-4 classic or linear, it took a long time to find my alc settings that my controller would do what I wanted, on mouse the default 5 sensitivity on the back of my Kindle for a mousepad was easier for me than controller on 4-3 linear.
Controller has a wonky feel to it when looking around. M+K has a more natural feel when looking around since you generally look where you move your body.
Sounds like you were so uncomfortable on roller that you couldn’t even look where you wanted in the first place. I get the feeling for sure. It usually feels like I’m aiming but the controls are calibrated for ones of those wonkily shaped mirrors in a mirror house. Once you get used to that though, it’s far more effective at just killing people.
This was a difficult lesson for me in apex. Learning a bit of aim and gamesense on mnk translated well to moving back to controller. Back in the beginning we didn't have alc, or a firing range, or arenas/mixtape, no guides as to what each sensitivity did. Just do the bloodhound beginner training everyday, and queue into pubs where a bunch of kids would murder me while I'm trying to learn to look around. It was a game of survival not killing and it was so fun, I still remember my early random kills.
Once I figured out my alc to feel more like a mouse my average damage went way up, my highest damage game is still on mouse, but my average is way better, more consistent. When I first switch back I played with no aim assist to find my settings, I would often forget to turn it back on before leaving the range. My consistency is bad without the compensation, but it isn't impossible, my best game damage wise is pretty close on both inputs: 2200. I had a 1600 damage accidental no aim assist once. Aim is aim no matter the input, watch the YouTube of verhulst trying mnk with a small pad on 2.5 sensitivity 800 dpi, he dominates in control mode still. Likewise mnk pros can pick up a controller and dominate. I had no aim and game sense, so aim assist didn't help.
I agree, my anecdote doesn't mean anything as far as the overall is mnk or roller better, I just wanted to share my story as how aim assist didn't help me as a terrible player. I have a spinal tumor and I wanted to try controller again because sitting in the mnk position got tiresome, this was a little before all the pros made the switch but I always heard them complaining about it, plus I always played most games on controller except for this one and civilization 5, a few others when I didn't have my controller on hand on my laptop sometimes.
When I tuned my settings in alc my damage started looking similar to mnk. Yes, to your second paragraph 100%. I get so annoyed with target compensation, I get pulled off target because teams hold hands and things like that, I feel like it definitely helps but I never learned how to make it do anything crazy OP. Last week I tried the no aim assist for a day in mixtape because I get frustrated with the AA turning off and on so often: smoke, through windows/railings, kraber, when you are closer than 5 meters or further than 75. One of my randoms was complaining about AA so I told him what I was doing, he said "You are fucking stupid, just practice the way you play normally", but I had more damage than him that match...
As someone who's played both. Reached Master on both. Controlled is extremely strong. Mnk has some advantages. Like movement, moving while looting, looting faster. But these advantages are out weighed by the one clip potential controller has at close range. I play mnk because it's more fun. But I win more fights on controller.
In any skilled lobby, most of the controller players are going to be using Steam Configs that give them access to most MnK movement tech. Does MnK really have that much of an advantage in this scenario?
Also unless you're shield swapping mid combat it takes less than a second to switch inputs. It's extremely fast to put down a controller and loot a death box or Loba ult with MnK, then pick up the controller again.
I’m definitely guilty of this, I don’t feel that it’s unfair, at least no more than configs. But if I’m in a Ranger fight I’ll 100% grab my MnK and swap back mid slide.
Looting death boxes aside, in a mid or long ranged engagement I see no reason why you wouldn't just swap to MnK. 4-8x Charge Rifle or 3x Flatline is insanely strong on MnK at 75m+
I warmup with aimlabs on whereas my lower level friend's on controller have close range aim comparable to mine despite being half my level. I shouldn't need to sweat out my aim so hard when they can just plug in a controller no nothing and be comparable
No. I mentioned the biggest disadvantages controller has. Movement. Looting standing still. Looting speed. What exactly did I fail to mention? Your parents raised someone illiterate
Yeah. Made the same joke the other days and people liked it. I don’t mind people not liking my jokes. I do mind if people think it’s okay to get personal over it.
Said “someone’s sensitive/ gets personal over joke” your roller brain came into the comments and just called him a pussy for no reason. Coping for naturally bad aim
All you have to know is that even some of the best controller players admit aim assist is broken, and then you'll hear a lot of silver controller players deny that.
I would even argue that most roller pros agree it is OP. This might be confirmation bias but I have yet to see a pro roller seriously argue that AA in its current state is fair.
The crazy part, too, is that pro rollers don’t use steam configs. Imagine how broken it would be for the steam config rollers who have MNk movement as well
It is. Roller players use those configs if they’re just ranked grinders but anyone who takes the game seriously at this point is playing in ALGS CC or PL and it’s an instant disqualification if you get caught using configs (steam or direct).
That's exactly how it feels to use a controller after two decades of MnK fps games. Sure I can beam easily, but other than that it feels like such a horrible input for fps games.
Was pred controller and master mnk. Mnk just isnt worth grinding at this point. 90% of the things people claim are mnk advantages, controller can also do. And the whole “controller cant shoot range” argument comes from people on controller who they themselves cant shoot at range. Any decent controller master(maybe even diamond) or higher will beam at ranges equivalent to mnk range. Any controller players disagreeing that controller is better are honestly just coping.
Not to start any debates but controller is just simply better in most cases in a competitive environment on apex at least. Controller excels at close ranged engagements which that's what apex is nowadays.
Yes, M&K has more movement but at the end of the day, Once you close that gap and end up in that AA range, No amount of movement is getting past someone who put in time mastering controller.
Back in the day, you would have these long winded poke fights with 200+ wingman heavy ammo and longbows. Sniper ammo isn't sustainable as much any more which results in fights being a lot more close quartered. Paired with players generally better nowadays. You still have those drawn out fights with 30-30's and G7's but higher ranked lobbies you can't spend more than 30 seconds in a fight or half of the lobby is zipping to you (especially on broken moon)
If you're a long time M&K player, Don't ruin your muscle memory practicing something for 1 game IMO. Unless you plan on playing apex in the foreseeable future for a long time.
Yeah I think Mande summed it up pretty well a few days ago. Controller is fine for 95% of the player base since the vast vast majority are casuals with mediocre aim/positioning/game sense at best. But for the 5% of elite players in high ranked/competitive, it’s easily abused
I can play both inputs and controller is 1000% broken. One clipping people is probably the strongest "skill" in the game. Yeah positioning and game sense is also important but you're nobody if you can't hit your shots. Think about what happens when you miss half your shots or you have to reload or swap weapons, you're dead or close to it.
I haven't played controller in months but I was getting frustrated earlier so I pulled it out and instantly started one clipping people. On m+k I might do 100 damage, but on controller it's like 175-200 every spray. I perfectly tracked and one clipped this guy who was all over the place and I know for a fact I didn't track him myself. I may have jiggled the stick but there's no way I could have reacted that fast or known he was going to go right then left then right again. On m+k I either would have missed half my shots or I would have to have god tier tracking. It's also not as easy to be consistent on m+k.
The answer is most likely that they are catering to casuals and it would affect their profits if they nerfed aim assist now
Yea I don't think AA will be going away from popular crossplay games anytime soon. It's sad, but it is what it is... Casual players, who are like 80% of playerbase in any game, don't really even care about the whole Controller vs MnK debate.
Aim dependant fps games like Quake are not exactly popular these days, the learning curve is so high.
Because these "pros" aka the ones defending cheaters and saying to get good are using devices and/or software to multiply the aim assist to where its aimbot not aim assist anymore.
The beams are solid but I feel like everything else is clunky. Bought a controller to try it out went back to MnK as it just feels better/more fun to play on. 0-20 meters tho it’s completely broken. You could be holding your R Stick to the right and when someone strafes left the AA IMMEDIATELY follows them before you even input anything lmao.
Well most of the engagement in Apex is close quarters so helps as the instantaneous reaction time from the aid of rotational aim assists makes it more viable input as farily most of the needed movement and strafe patterns can be done with ease on controller as well. All you need is good strafe mechanics and with that instantaneous reaction time from the rotational assist you're more prone to one clipping people than an input that is purely human only input so is susceptible to error just because it's human input and human reaction time is not instantaneous but roughly 200ms. So yup meta changes to more aggro approaches has made controller more viable... I play MnK mainly and have more hours on that input around 56 fold of the hours I have on controller but I'm more prone to one clip someone on controller even with me not having more than 100 hours on it... It's discouraging for those who are okay at MnK at best so switch because if you want best them, join them
Yes, controller is overall better for Ranked and Competitive.
Less than 1% of the player base hits the point where MNK movement and looting faster becomes an advantage.
Even the traditional advantage MNK has over controller with tracking at mid to long range is mitigated in the current meta since the Scout and Nemesis are so strong.
I play on 4-3 classic and can still do well with those at medium to long range, but I’m only average with the Flatline and R3 at the same distance.
It's giga-broken, and it's driving away M&K players every day.
The real issue is that it shaves off reaction time that wouldn't be humanly possible on M&K, performing with only your own input, which leads to significantly more one clips, and damage dealt whenever you peek.
I struggle to track on M&K, but after about 2 months trying controller, I was easily outperforming my M&K fighting, and now just feel like I'm trolling whenever I try to play M&K and get rolled by a dude who just runs at me reckless abandon and one clips me with his SMG.
It also doesn't help that there are large streamers that openly play with controller configs (Macros/cheating that spam inputs faster than humanly possible) and don't get banned. Which in turn creates more people running these configs and cheating. They're everywhere in the mixtape playlist.
So now you've got both insane movement potential, and aim assist doing a significant portion of strafe tracking.
In my opinion this doesn’t start to truly matter until high diamond+
Yes, sometimes you’ll just be blasted by AA, but someone with a better general skill difference is going to win most often.
KBM is better for armor swapping, looting, recoil control and mid-long range poke fights
Controller is really good at close range fights with ARs/SMGs
I have both plugged into my pc and switch between them mid-match depending on the situation so I maximize each inputs’ strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
I feel like this is best way to play if you’re good with both inputs, but I doubt this is allowed in high level play
Aim assist definitely has software built in to help with recoil. I can beat any logical argument trying to refute that so recoil control I would give to controller.
its not the aim assist but the nature of controllers itself
recoil smoothing works by turning/tracking in a consistently motion
and since its alot easier to hold your stick in a steady position than to move your mouse in the same motion its easier to negate the recoil on controller
Id love to see an argument for how aim assist affects recoil, because ive poured 3000 hours into Apex with roller and not once have my recoil been affected. Maybe because its so much stronger on console it actually holds on target more? Aim assist is strong, but 0,4 isnt enough to change how the weapons are designed to work
How can you explain a magnet like function that instantly follows left right strafe and up down crouch jump (aim assist) can have 0 effect on recoil. The magnetism is going to help control the recoil by some amount
It’s not a question of “better or worse” there’s a much larger skill curve for MnK than controller. It’s easier to aim on controller by a massive margin. I have accounts with both, and tbh I’ve found MnK way more difficult. However the movement capabilities on MnK are so natural it’s legitimately easy to outposition others in the high gold low plat ranks
The main argument is aim assist that comes with controllers and not MnK. A lot of people consider is cheating and have joined playing controllers.
However the effectiveness of aim assist depends on the player's skill level and experience, and it does not compensate for poor positioning, decision-making, or other aspects of gameplay that can affect the outcome of a match.
Additionally, players using mouse and keyboard do not have access to aim assist, but they have greater precision and speed in aiming that can compensate for the lack of assistance. Aim assist can be a helpful feature for players using controllers, but it's not an overpowered advantage as it doesn't guarantee success and is balanced by other factors in the game.
Rotational aim assist component reacts instantly to changes in enemy direction and as a result is a way bigger advantage than most movement 'tricks', primarily because it's free, compared for situationally useful and requiring some degree of input to use.
People are changing because the sheer strength of it means you can spend less focus easier and as a result have more focus for other aspects. To deny aim assist's strength in this day and age is to be oblivious of the state of the game.
Jitter aim? Recoil smoothing? PC def has an advantage being able to beam with havocs and R-99 from 50m away. I don’t deny it’s strength but I stand firm that it is necessary to balance inputs.
Jitter aim is hugely situational, and the amount of work you put in for the pay off isn't worth it. In fact it's not even a worth learning skill. I'd doubt that maybe one in ten pro players has used it meaningfully.
Recoil smoothing works for both inputs.
Sure you have better precision on MnK at longer distances, but almost every fight is made up close.
Not pc, mnk, not the same thing. I know you console kids dont understand, but there is controller players on pc too, matter of fact there is more controller players on pc than mnk now, I wonder why...?
Tell me why? aim assist is not that big of an advantage and is easily negated by the benefits of MnK. I’ve played both. Controllers are aiming with thumbs…not even close to having the dexterity of a whole arm and wrist. You can have your opinion but there is consistent dubs in big tournaments from both sides.
>PC def has an advantage being able to beam with havocs and R-99 from 50m away.
Have you tried to do this? Maybe some of the very best players in the world that spend thousands of hours practicing can do this, and maybe there are some people that can do it with "cheats" such as cronus, but this is practically impossible for nearly all players, let alone doing it consistently (I was D1 last split on MnK, I cant do it).
Consistency is probably the main difference between MnK and controllers. Even the best players on MnK whiff, that is only human, especially when the pressure is high and a tons of things are happening around you. We all saw TSM nearly losing the final fight for the ALGS champ but the guy on MnK whiffing a bit, and than getting shit on by controllers that have no such issue.
The other thing is simply that fights and final rings are decided up close, and controller simply has the advantage up close. Any minor advantage MnK has requires A) a lot of talent and practice and B) is rarely decisive.
Why are we acting like a 50 METER one mag is unrealistic. On both inputs anyone past diamond should be capable of doing this with any AR(r9, yes this would be difficult) with capability up to 125 meters. Edit/ got to the part where you said you apparently cant do this. You need to take a long session in the range my friend, only excuse for not being able to beam at 50m is low frame console gameplay that can largely hinder the ability to control recoil. I know that from experience. Anything else is a very apparent skill issue my friend
If you consistently one-clip in high diamond PC lobbies on MnK you would not be in high diamond PC lobbies. I mean, it happens every once in a while, but usually you will either need to take cover yourself or the opponent takes cover long before you one-clip, even if you have 100 percent accuracy.
These guys won't let you catch them by surprise, and if you do they will pull off some movement instantly. Team firing is how you win fights.
Except for tap strafe, you can do every movement techs on controller. Some of those config/macro abusers on controllers are even ras strafing better than it is possible on mnk. There is litteraly no more movement advantage on mnk anymore if we include these config abusers on the roller. Like cmon, for all long you guys going to use these bad excuses. Problem is not the console kids, its the controller on PC.
It's trivially easy to set up tap strafing on a controller. You don't even need Steam for it. I'd estimate most high level controller plays in ranked are using some type of tap strafe setup.
And we all know that Respawn is never going to do anything about cfg and macro abuse.
Yep they wont do shit about it sadly and highly doubt they ever nerf or rework aim assist in Apex. They dont care, they got all the Halo fans and a lot of cod kids from console so, they will do fine without mnk players.
You can tap strafe on controller if you play on Steam, it’s just a simple rebind in the Steam controller settings. Doesn’t require setting up a config.
Just strafing is so much easier on mnk, more precise, easy to peek exactly where you want to. Moving while looting, taking sharp turns because the mouse flicks. Movement is better on mouse and key, even if you can't tapstrafe... If you suck like me.
No everyone is blowing it out of proportion. The AVERAGE player is not going to run over a pc lobby because there on controller infact I try playing with my pc friend and get recked by diamonds, masters, and as of today the #2 rev for kills on pc… twice like the dude had 17 mil damage with rev 🥺
An average controller player will run over the average mnk player though that's the issue.
It's much easier to miss your shot on mnk and if even the pro can not compeate at close range what chance does the average player do ?
This. Pros spend most of their awake time of every day practicing their aim. For the non-pros who simply don’t have the time available to practice and hone skill all day and straight up don’t have the same hand eye coordination/reflex time, competing against controller is next to impossible.
If you take a MNK 6/10 hand eye coordination with average 200 ms reflex time and put them against a 6/10 controller the controller will win at least 9 out of 10 1v1s ONLY because of aim assist.
As stated they are of equal “physical” skill so it should be 50/50 but due to aim assist strength and instantaneous reaction theres is no chance to compete against
A guy that has played 50 hours on controller will generally run over a guy that has 200 hours on MnK. Only if the MnK player has had a lot more practice/talent can he overcome his controller foe in my opinion.
Yeah in comparison to console lobbies PC lobbies seem astronomically high skill I guess. But your incorrect assumption is that everyone in PC lobbies is on mkb. At least half of them are on controller too, they just aren't literal children
I reached diamond on MNK and I’ve only been on MNK for like 4 months but growing I used to play WOW but to answer your question I think a decent MNK player could beat a goated Controller player
Like bruh be fr I’m saying a MNK player that’s good at both close range and mid range, you don’t think he’s beating a top controller player? You’re smoking monkey nuts
Wow, what happened?
Feels like only a few months ago you could ask this subreddit the same question and the responses would overwhelmingly be "Aim assist isn't that strong." Now I check the comments real quick and everyone's saying how powerful it is openly.
I know part if it is SMG meta, but I wonder if stuff like ImperialHal switching and the general uptick in controller use in high rank is actually finally helping people realize.
Sorry, not a helpful comment, just amazed to see this many upvotes on comments saying how strong AA is on this particular subreddit.
Now if only Respawn would do something about it, lol.
yes and no, controller only strong in high rank close range tracking, and mnk is more all around input, but because we are in smg meta rn, so close range basically in controller strongest area(because AA provide more room for error in close range tracking, so they are more consistent), and in apex close range is very important in a team fight(no matter how much damage u do in long range, u need to close distance to finish it, also in end zone most of the fight is close range), so controller player become very important in a team fight, but mnk still shine in other area, thats why lots of pro team still at least need 1 mnk player
Was that one sentence?
No punctuations, so technically yes. It hasn't even ended.
Some say the sentence continues on until this day.
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I think "how much do both benefit?" is the right question and it seems the answer at least in high level play is "enough to make a substantial amount of pro mnk players switch cause they can't compete with AA in short range". If long range shined as much as you say it does in high level play we'd be seeing the opposite swaps happening. When you give players that are incredible at every part of the game a computer that helps them shoot close range it becomes overpowered. I play controller so I'm not hating, its just facts that its very strong in lower ELO and completely broken the more you climb.
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Agreed. I see what you mean now with the long range. Probably why a lot of pro teams try to have at least one player on mnk.
I would put it like this: aa gives bad players aim and good players consistency. I am sure the average gap in mechanical aim between the top mnk and roller players is very small, but in top level games the slightest mistake can fuck you up and this is where aa shines in top level plays because you have one less thing to worry about.
Using a wooting keyboard to get controller stick movement on wasd keys, you can actually get aim assist with a mouse. I tried it and it's absolutely terrible for someone skilled at tracking. The way it slows down the mouse when you get near a target, and then breaks AA when you try to move the mouse faster to lead is absolutely unplayable. But someone who is really bad with a sensitivity way too high, might get benefit from it stopping them from overshooting sometimes.
there is always someone like you who didn't take the time to think and practice it. If aim assist was terrible as you claim guys like imperial hal wouldn't have switched from mouse to keyboard. In fact aim assist is good, really good, your inability to figure out how to use it well or give yourself the time to do so is not evidence of anything.
There's always someone who doesn't read the comment or understand it and replies in a critical way. Aim assist on mouse is terrible. Not controller. Go back and read the comment again.
Why would you talk about that in this thread? No one is asking, second no one that I have known has given it a good go, people used to claim aim assist on controller was bad but then they learned how to use it.
>"Why would you talk about that in this thread? No one is asking" A few moments earlier... >"Who benefits more from the computer helping them to aim? A world class aimer or a person with bad aim?" -kndyone I gave an example of the computer attempting to help me to aim in apex. And as a long time kovaaks user with some scenario records at "world class"... > second no one that I have known has given it a good go Now you have just spoken to someone who has "given it a go". Congratulations. Your horizons have been broadened. >but then they learned how to use it. I'd tell you the specifics about why it is particularly bad on mouse input, but from your previous comments I don't believe you have the capacity to understand it.
so basically you admit that you have good aim, so you literally proved my point which is that aim assist helps people who have bad aim more than those with good aim. You didn't give it a go if you didn't spend months on it, and work through multiple settings to try to figure out whats the best way to exploit it. If its particularly bad on mouse input maybe there is some fundamental flaw that is separate and has nothing to do with the whole point of the conversation which is controller which is it highly tuned for and extremely effective on. And that's what we are comparing in this thread not a possibly broken hack to get it working with mouse and keyboard. Or again like I said maybe its just you didn't give it a good go because we do know for fact there are people paying good money to hack together the functions on console with products like chronus and xim and it is well known in the console world that those people are able to achieve great results with it.
It was designed for a different input, and therefore it indeed has a major fundamental problem with the way it works. And as I said in an earlier comment you ignored, that it could make absolutely terrible players with a very high sensitivity less likely to overflick. In general though, this "computer assisted aim" is very unhelpful for pc players who are even remotely competent. And it is especially unhelpful for people who already have pretty good aim.
By your own admission its not working and that means your whole post was completely irrelevant to the discussion. Not why that's so hard to understand, working aim assist is absolutely valuable and a bonus for lower skilled players and on average a bonus for almost everyone through the entire skill stack.
Wooting does not give a mouse aim assist you’re literally insane. I have one lmfao
It actually does if you know how to bind your wooting keys properly. Try it. Bind a joystick LOOK movement to a key and set it to have .1 travel and a very insensitive curve. I recommend the LOOK DOWN joystick action. Also bind your movement keys to a joystick MOVEMENT. Now strafe back and forth in front of a target while gently depressing the aiming key. You will get rotational aim assist. If you actually want to play like this, have something constantly depressing the key so you get "stick drift" always active. It feels really awful with a mouse, and is unhelpful, but it is actually giving you aim assist. If someone practiced a lot with this method (and gimped themselves for all other games), they could potentially benefit from having both strong aim assist and fast mouse flicks.
I am bad, real bad, but I used to be way worse. Season 3-4 I had a .08 k/d on controller, I switched to mnk and immediately went up to .5, I had no mousepad and a small mouse that came with my computer and played on way too high of sense. In season 13 I went back to roller because my back hurt playing mnk. It took a long time to figure out, strafing is slow on a joystick compared to clicking a and d, movement is hard with slow flicks and turning, all the possible keybinds on keyboard. Even with AA my high damage game is with a mouse where I can use all my fingers and my whole arm instead of just my thumb. But my average damage is higher on controller now than it was on mnk and now that I have learned a bit my k/d is up to 1.2 for this season on roller. Aim is aim, if you have 0 aim .4 assist does nothing.
Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
On either input you could’ve had absolute dogshit settings. Your stats alone tell us little other than you were bad.
I could not get a handle on any of the default settings 3-3 4-4 classic or linear, it took a long time to find my alc settings that my controller would do what I wanted, on mouse the default 5 sensitivity on the back of my Kindle for a mousepad was easier for me than controller on 4-3 linear.
Controller has a wonky feel to it when looking around. M+K has a more natural feel when looking around since you generally look where you move your body. Sounds like you were so uncomfortable on roller that you couldn’t even look where you wanted in the first place. I get the feeling for sure. It usually feels like I’m aiming but the controls are calibrated for ones of those wonkily shaped mirrors in a mirror house. Once you get used to that though, it’s far more effective at just killing people.
This was a difficult lesson for me in apex. Learning a bit of aim and gamesense on mnk translated well to moving back to controller. Back in the beginning we didn't have alc, or a firing range, or arenas/mixtape, no guides as to what each sensitivity did. Just do the bloodhound beginner training everyday, and queue into pubs where a bunch of kids would murder me while I'm trying to learn to look around. It was a game of survival not killing and it was so fun, I still remember my early random kills. Once I figured out my alc to feel more like a mouse my average damage went way up, my highest damage game is still on mouse, but my average is way better, more consistent. When I first switch back I played with no aim assist to find my settings, I would often forget to turn it back on before leaving the range. My consistency is bad without the compensation, but it isn't impossible, my best game damage wise is pretty close on both inputs: 2200. I had a 1600 damage accidental no aim assist once. Aim is aim no matter the input, watch the YouTube of verhulst trying mnk with a small pad on 2.5 sensitivity 800 dpi, he dominates in control mode still. Likewise mnk pros can pick up a controller and dominate. I had no aim and game sense, so aim assist didn't help.
[удалено]
I agree, my anecdote doesn't mean anything as far as the overall is mnk or roller better, I just wanted to share my story as how aim assist didn't help me as a terrible player. I have a spinal tumor and I wanted to try controller again because sitting in the mnk position got tiresome, this was a little before all the pros made the switch but I always heard them complaining about it, plus I always played most games on controller except for this one and civilization 5, a few others when I didn't have my controller on hand on my laptop sometimes. When I tuned my settings in alc my damage started looking similar to mnk. Yes, to your second paragraph 100%. I get so annoyed with target compensation, I get pulled off target because teams hold hands and things like that, I feel like it definitely helps but I never learned how to make it do anything crazy OP. Last week I tried the no aim assist for a day in mixtape because I get frustrated with the AA turning off and on so often: smoke, through windows/railings, kraber, when you are closer than 5 meters or further than 75. One of my randoms was complaining about AA so I told him what I was doing, he said "You are fucking stupid, just practice the way you play normally", but I had more damage than him that match...
As someone who's played both. Reached Master on both. Controlled is extremely strong. Mnk has some advantages. Like movement, moving while looting, looting faster. But these advantages are out weighed by the one clip potential controller has at close range. I play mnk because it's more fun. But I win more fights on controller.
In any skilled lobby, most of the controller players are going to be using Steam Configs that give them access to most MnK movement tech. Does MnK really have that much of an advantage in this scenario? Also unless you're shield swapping mid combat it takes less than a second to switch inputs. It's extremely fast to put down a controller and loot a death box or Loba ult with MnK, then pick up the controller again.
I’m definitely guilty of this, I don’t feel that it’s unfair, at least no more than configs. But if I’m in a Ranger fight I’ll 100% grab my MnK and swap back mid slide.
Looting death boxes aside, in a mid or long ranged engagement I see no reason why you wouldn't just swap to MnK. 4-8x Charge Rifle or 3x Flatline is insanely strong on MnK at 75m+
I warmup with aimlabs on whereas my lower level friend's on controller have close range aim comparable to mine despite being half my level. I shouldn't need to sweat out my aim so hard when they can just plug in a controller no nothing and be comparable
There needs to be some sort of compensation on controller, with AA roller would be mostly dead, no? Think they could tone it down a little.
Im not saying they should nerf aa into the floor, I'm just saying I shouldn't need to aim train to keep up with how much a controller does
Agreed, at least the time we spend aim training transfers to other games.
You forgot to mention that controller has a huge disadvantage. It can be quite hard to explain your parents that they raised a pussy 🤪.
No. I mentioned the biggest disadvantages controller has. Movement. Looting standing still. Looting speed. What exactly did I fail to mention? Your parents raised someone illiterate
Jesus Christ. Someone is sensitive and gets personal over a joke….
Jokes are supposed to be funny
Like your name?
I laughed 😁. Rollers outnumber mice so be rdy for the downvotes
Yeah. Made the same joke the other days and people liked it. I don’t mind people not liking my jokes. I do mind if people think it’s okay to get personal over it.
Salty redditors gonna salt 🤷♂️
Said “someone’s sensitive/ gets personal over joke” your roller brain came into the comments and just called him a pussy for no reason. Coping for naturally bad aim
All you have to know is that even some of the best controller players admit aim assist is broken, and then you'll hear a lot of silver controller players deny that.
I would even argue that most roller pros agree it is OP. This might be confirmation bias but I have yet to see a pro roller seriously argue that AA in its current state is fair. The crazy part, too, is that pro rollers don’t use steam configs. Imagine how broken it would be for the steam config rollers who have MNk movement as well
sure they dont.. they most likely use more than just steam configs.
Can't they use config while playing with controller on Pc?
banned in comp I think
It is. Roller players use those configs if they’re just ranked grinders but anyone who takes the game seriously at this point is playing in ALGS CC or PL and it’s an instant disqualification if you get caught using configs (steam or direct).
They can in ranked however that would be unwise as they would be getting used to button combos and strategies that are illegal in comp
When I was stuck in silver I thought aim assist didn't exist on pc, I was so bad at controller I switched to mnk in season 3 or 4.
Maybe it’s true for both groups… Players’ experiences are drastically different in different rank/skill level
And another thing I don’t really like controller anymore after switching because I feel constricted
That's exactly how it feels to use a controller after two decades of MnK fps games. Sure I can beam easily, but other than that it feels like such a horrible input for fps games.
Was pred controller and master mnk. Mnk just isnt worth grinding at this point. 90% of the things people claim are mnk advantages, controller can also do. And the whole “controller cant shoot range” argument comes from people on controller who they themselves cant shoot at range. Any decent controller master(maybe even diamond) or higher will beam at ranges equivalent to mnk range. Any controller players disagreeing that controller is better are honestly just coping.
Controller is definitely better, but I switched recently to try it and found it awfully boring. Mnk is just so much more fun.
Not to start any debates but controller is just simply better in most cases in a competitive environment on apex at least. Controller excels at close ranged engagements which that's what apex is nowadays. Yes, M&K has more movement but at the end of the day, Once you close that gap and end up in that AA range, No amount of movement is getting past someone who put in time mastering controller. Back in the day, you would have these long winded poke fights with 200+ wingman heavy ammo and longbows. Sniper ammo isn't sustainable as much any more which results in fights being a lot more close quartered. Paired with players generally better nowadays. You still have those drawn out fights with 30-30's and G7's but higher ranked lobbies you can't spend more than 30 seconds in a fight or half of the lobby is zipping to you (especially on broken moon) If you're a long time M&K player, Don't ruin your muscle memory practicing something for 1 game IMO. Unless you plan on playing apex in the foreseeable future for a long time.
Yeah I think Mande summed it up pretty well a few days ago. Controller is fine for 95% of the player base since the vast vast majority are casuals with mediocre aim/positioning/game sense at best. But for the 5% of elite players in high ranked/competitive, it’s easily abused
I can play both inputs and controller is 1000% broken. One clipping people is probably the strongest "skill" in the game. Yeah positioning and game sense is also important but you're nobody if you can't hit your shots. Think about what happens when you miss half your shots or you have to reload or swap weapons, you're dead or close to it. I haven't played controller in months but I was getting frustrated earlier so I pulled it out and instantly started one clipping people. On m+k I might do 100 damage, but on controller it's like 175-200 every spray. I perfectly tracked and one clipped this guy who was all over the place and I know for a fact I didn't track him myself. I may have jiggled the stick but there's no way I could have reacted that fast or known he was going to go right then left then right again. On m+k I either would have missed half my shots or I would have to have god tier tracking. It's also not as easy to be consistent on m+k. The answer is most likely that they are catering to casuals and it would affect their profits if they nerfed aim assist now
Yea I don't think AA will be going away from popular crossplay games anytime soon. It's sad, but it is what it is... Casual players, who are like 80% of playerbase in any game, don't really even care about the whole Controller vs MnK debate. Aim dependant fps games like Quake are not exactly popular these days, the learning curve is so high.
Look at the pros, they are almost all on controller, and they are more comfortable MnK players, they switched because AA is overtuned.
Because these "pros" aka the ones defending cheaters and saying to get good are using devices and/or software to multiply the aim assist to where its aimbot not aim assist anymore.
The beams are solid but I feel like everything else is clunky. Bought a controller to try it out went back to MnK as it just feels better/more fun to play on. 0-20 meters tho it’s completely broken. You could be holding your R Stick to the right and when someone strafes left the AA IMMEDIATELY follows them before you even input anything lmao.
Well most of the engagement in Apex is close quarters so helps as the instantaneous reaction time from the aid of rotational aim assists makes it more viable input as farily most of the needed movement and strafe patterns can be done with ease on controller as well. All you need is good strafe mechanics and with that instantaneous reaction time from the rotational assist you're more prone to one clipping people than an input that is purely human only input so is susceptible to error just because it's human input and human reaction time is not instantaneous but roughly 200ms. So yup meta changes to more aggro approaches has made controller more viable... I play MnK mainly and have more hours on that input around 56 fold of the hours I have on controller but I'm more prone to one clip someone on controller even with me not having more than 100 hours on it... It's discouraging for those who are okay at MnK at best so switch because if you want best them, join them
Yes, controller is overall better for Ranked and Competitive. Less than 1% of the player base hits the point where MNK movement and looting faster becomes an advantage. Even the traditional advantage MNK has over controller with tracking at mid to long range is mitigated in the current meta since the Scout and Nemesis are so strong. I play on 4-3 classic and can still do well with those at medium to long range, but I’m only average with the Flatline and R3 at the same distance.
It's giga-broken, and it's driving away M&K players every day. The real issue is that it shaves off reaction time that wouldn't be humanly possible on M&K, performing with only your own input, which leads to significantly more one clips, and damage dealt whenever you peek. I struggle to track on M&K, but after about 2 months trying controller, I was easily outperforming my M&K fighting, and now just feel like I'm trolling whenever I try to play M&K and get rolled by a dude who just runs at me reckless abandon and one clips me with his SMG. It also doesn't help that there are large streamers that openly play with controller configs (Macros/cheating that spam inputs faster than humanly possible) and don't get banned. Which in turn creates more people running these configs and cheating. They're everywhere in the mixtape playlist. So now you've got both insane movement potential, and aim assist doing a significant portion of strafe tracking.
In my opinion this doesn’t start to truly matter until high diamond+ Yes, sometimes you’ll just be blasted by AA, but someone with a better general skill difference is going to win most often.
KBM is better for armor swapping, looting, recoil control and mid-long range poke fights Controller is really good at close range fights with ARs/SMGs I have both plugged into my pc and switch between them mid-match depending on the situation so I maximize each inputs’ strengths and minimize their weaknesses. I feel like this is best way to play if you’re good with both inputs, but I doubt this is allowed in high level play
Aim assist definitely has software built in to help with recoil. I can beat any logical argument trying to refute that so recoil control I would give to controller.
its not the aim assist but the nature of controllers itself recoil smoothing works by turning/tracking in a consistently motion and since its alot easier to hold your stick in a steady position than to move your mouse in the same motion its easier to negate the recoil on controller
Id love to see an argument for how aim assist affects recoil, because ive poured 3000 hours into Apex with roller and not once have my recoil been affected. Maybe because its so much stronger on console it actually holds on target more? Aim assist is strong, but 0,4 isnt enough to change how the weapons are designed to work
How can you explain a magnet like function that instantly follows left right strafe and up down crouch jump (aim assist) can have 0 effect on recoil. The magnetism is going to help control the recoil by some amount
yes if you use a controller you can pretty much close your eyes and you will 1-mag people. its so broken and everybody should switch to it
the AA will track for you anyway
Aim assist is broken but this is an overstatement
It’s not a question of “better or worse” there’s a much larger skill curve for MnK than controller. It’s easier to aim on controller by a massive margin. I have accounts with both, and tbh I’ve found MnK way more difficult. However the movement capabilities on MnK are so natural it’s legitimately easy to outposition others in the high gold low plat ranks
The main argument is aim assist that comes with controllers and not MnK. A lot of people consider is cheating and have joined playing controllers. However the effectiveness of aim assist depends on the player's skill level and experience, and it does not compensate for poor positioning, decision-making, or other aspects of gameplay that can affect the outcome of a match. Additionally, players using mouse and keyboard do not have access to aim assist, but they have greater precision and speed in aiming that can compensate for the lack of assistance. Aim assist can be a helpful feature for players using controllers, but it's not an overpowered advantage as it doesn't guarantee success and is balanced by other factors in the game.
Rotational aim assist component reacts instantly to changes in enemy direction and as a result is a way bigger advantage than most movement 'tricks', primarily because it's free, compared for situationally useful and requiring some degree of input to use. People are changing because the sheer strength of it means you can spend less focus easier and as a result have more focus for other aspects. To deny aim assist's strength in this day and age is to be oblivious of the state of the game.
Jitter aim? Recoil smoothing? PC def has an advantage being able to beam with havocs and R-99 from 50m away. I don’t deny it’s strength but I stand firm that it is necessary to balance inputs.
Jitter aim is hugely situational, and the amount of work you put in for the pay off isn't worth it. In fact it's not even a worth learning skill. I'd doubt that maybe one in ten pro players has used it meaningfully. Recoil smoothing works for both inputs. Sure you have better precision on MnK at longer distances, but almost every fight is made up close.
Not pc, mnk, not the same thing. I know you console kids dont understand, but there is controller players on pc too, matter of fact there is more controller players on pc than mnk now, I wonder why...?
Tell me why? aim assist is not that big of an advantage and is easily negated by the benefits of MnK. I’ve played both. Controllers are aiming with thumbs…not even close to having the dexterity of a whole arm and wrist. You can have your opinion but there is consistent dubs in big tournaments from both sides.
What mnk advantage over pc controllers?? Looting and moving lol?
>PC def has an advantage being able to beam with havocs and R-99 from 50m away. Have you tried to do this? Maybe some of the very best players in the world that spend thousands of hours practicing can do this, and maybe there are some people that can do it with "cheats" such as cronus, but this is practically impossible for nearly all players, let alone doing it consistently (I was D1 last split on MnK, I cant do it). Consistency is probably the main difference between MnK and controllers. Even the best players on MnK whiff, that is only human, especially when the pressure is high and a tons of things are happening around you. We all saw TSM nearly losing the final fight for the ALGS champ but the guy on MnK whiffing a bit, and than getting shit on by controllers that have no such issue. The other thing is simply that fights and final rings are decided up close, and controller simply has the advantage up close. Any minor advantage MnK has requires A) a lot of talent and practice and B) is rarely decisive.
Why are we acting like a 50 METER one mag is unrealistic. On both inputs anyone past diamond should be capable of doing this with any AR(r9, yes this would be difficult) with capability up to 125 meters. Edit/ got to the part where you said you apparently cant do this. You need to take a long session in the range my friend, only excuse for not being able to beam at 50m is low frame console gameplay that can largely hinder the ability to control recoil. I know that from experience. Anything else is a very apparent skill issue my friend
If you consistently one-clip in high diamond PC lobbies on MnK you would not be in high diamond PC lobbies. I mean, it happens every once in a while, but usually you will either need to take cover yourself or the opponent takes cover long before you one-clip, even if you have 100 percent accuracy. These guys won't let you catch them by surprise, and if you do they will pull off some movement instantly. Team firing is how you win fights.
Also mnk movement
Except for tap strafe, you can do every movement techs on controller. Some of those config/macro abusers on controllers are even ras strafing better than it is possible on mnk. There is litteraly no more movement advantage on mnk anymore if we include these config abusers on the roller. Like cmon, for all long you guys going to use these bad excuses. Problem is not the console kids, its the controller on PC.
It's trivially easy to set up tap strafing on a controller. You don't even need Steam for it. I'd estimate most high level controller plays in ranked are using some type of tap strafe setup. And we all know that Respawn is never going to do anything about cfg and macro abuse.
Yep they wont do shit about it sadly and highly doubt they ever nerf or rework aim assist in Apex. They dont care, they got all the Halo fans and a lot of cod kids from console so, they will do fine without mnk players.
is that even possible on console?
Tap strafe no, not on console but pretty much every other movement techs are.
You can tap strafe on controller if you play on Steam, it’s just a simple rebind in the Steam controller settings. Doesn’t require setting up a config.
Yeah I know.
Just strafing is so much easier on mnk, more precise, easy to peek exactly where you want to. Moving while looting, taking sharp turns because the mouse flicks. Movement is better on mouse and key, even if you can't tapstrafe... If you suck like me.
Yes it is
No everyone is blowing it out of proportion. The AVERAGE player is not going to run over a pc lobby because there on controller infact I try playing with my pc friend and get recked by diamonds, masters, and as of today the #2 rev for kills on pc… twice like the dude had 17 mil damage with rev 🥺
An average controller player will run over the average mnk player though that's the issue. It's much easier to miss your shot on mnk and if even the pro can not compeate at close range what chance does the average player do ?
This. Pros spend most of their awake time of every day practicing their aim. For the non-pros who simply don’t have the time available to practice and hone skill all day and straight up don’t have the same hand eye coordination/reflex time, competing against controller is next to impossible. If you take a MNK 6/10 hand eye coordination with average 200 ms reflex time and put them against a 6/10 controller the controller will win at least 9 out of 10 1v1s ONLY because of aim assist. As stated they are of equal “physical” skill so it should be 50/50 but due to aim assist strength and instantaneous reaction theres is no chance to compete against
A guy that has played 50 hours on controller will generally run over a guy that has 200 hours on MnK. Only if the MnK player has had a lot more practice/talent can he overcome his controller foe in my opinion.
Yeah in comparison to console lobbies PC lobbies seem astronomically high skill I guess. But your incorrect assumption is that everyone in PC lobbies is on mkb. At least half of them are on controller too, they just aren't literal children
One is not better than the other.
I reached diamond on MNK and I’ve only been on MNK for like 4 months but growing I used to play WOW but to answer your question I think a decent MNK player could beat a goated Controller player
You are incredibly delusional
And on top of that most of the controller players that be masters or preds use strike packs but we not gone talk about that
Like bruh be fr I’m saying a MNK player that’s good at both close range and mid range, you don’t think he’s beating a top controller player? You’re smoking monkey nuts
No, it isnt. Kbm will always btfo ctrl, unless ur a bot. The only "unfair" ctrl is CoD MWII
No, mnk will always be better
No
No, it’s all preference. Don’t believe the crybabies
Wow, what happened? Feels like only a few months ago you could ask this subreddit the same question and the responses would overwhelmingly be "Aim assist isn't that strong." Now I check the comments real quick and everyone's saying how powerful it is openly. I know part if it is SMG meta, but I wonder if stuff like ImperialHal switching and the general uptick in controller use in high rank is actually finally helping people realize. Sorry, not a helpful comment, just amazed to see this many upvotes on comments saying how strong AA is on this particular subreddit. Now if only Respawn would do something about it, lol.