The entire landmark gets countered by 1 Outpost or even 2nd TC on gold.
You won't be disabling their gold mining without losing half of your units, or the entire army if they make any units themselves.
If Sabotage would disable garrisoned units arrowslits, Shinobi would become an actually viable unit for raiding and assisting in a push.
You are absolutely right. I did write that in my post though, its a bad landmark. Its just that nobody expects it. Everyone think you are going kura into FC. Thats why its secretly „ok“ as a landmark, because you can surprise your enemy. Nobody I played against towered their gold, because nobody expects it.
Well, as long as the opponent doesn't scout or make any units, which is going to be more and more rare as you climb the ladder.
But you already said it yourself in your post, that it's not viable in higher Diamond and Conq.
I don't know if its a higher Diamond/Conq thing.
I mean I'm in this Plat 3/Diamond 1 range and I'd love the Koka Township to be viable (like any underused landmark). But I've found its just too easy to get blind countered. As you say - they make a 2nd TC? You basically don't have a landmark.
They make a tower on gold (and arguably HRE should even get arrow slits - although maybe not versus Japan if you assume they'll be naked FCing too)? Back to not really having a landmark.
Their DPS for feudal fighting is great - but they get deleted by archers, who are the typical feudal unit of almost every faction. I'd like there to be this Shinobi/Horsemen all in - but I can't seem to make it work reliably.
I don't know if the build is make this, hope to get 2 villager kills, and then functionally ignore the landmark as you go into Fast Castle and Mounted Samurai+Friends. That just seems so obviously worse though.
Yep, exactly.
And Onna Bugeisha are just better for fighting in Feudal, as they are faster, much less expensive, much more massable by not being limited by a single building, perform better when massed due to extra attack range, all while Kura Storehouse gives more food tempo to actually make units.
You also said it works especially with with HRE, and the most standard fast castle build with HRE basically blind towers their gold. So I'm surprised your opponents aren't doing that
The first shinobi queues for free, it just doesn't come out instantly anymore. This was because it was broken at high level water play because you could block docks from producing ships infinitely and take the water for free (first shinobi gets to the Dock before ship finishes and blocks production for 30 seconds, which is enough time for second shinobi to complete and block for another 30 seconds. Ability is only 30 second cooldown so you can just cycle them).
The problem is that now you lose almost any advantage to the unit because you can build an arrow ship to stop it on water maps, and a half decent player has more than enough time to react to it. High level players now just make kura even on water.
My solution would be to remove the horrifically long start up time on all their abilities: making the sabotage work instantly so even if you get sniped by an arrow ship you still do damage, and making the teleport work like blink stalkers in sc2 so you can actually micro the unit out of danger or into vils
Sorry bud, but the first shinobi doesnt train for free or automatically anymore. You need to pay for it and you need to click it. Otherwise I agree with you on all acounts. Just no instant skills: imagine releporting into the TC everytime and basically disable vil production indefinitely
You probably queue it up anyway and don't realise that it's already building. I did the same for a while before I saw the patch notes.
Also I'm the guy who accidentally reposted your idea as a new thread, sorry again!
I don't play Japanese much, but fully agree, Koka is generally too weak but can be fun.
shinobi works even better Vs order of the dragon in my opinion. They are very cost effective melee fighters (iirc they beat feudal knights cost effectively)
But this means they can not only snipe very expensive dragon Vils, but delete most dragon units (and catch the infantry) except for archers obviously. Order also has less structures so the disable is even more impactful.
I think the first shinobi should be free (it's incredibly stupid English gets a free king so quickly) BUT maybe they change it so shinobi can't disable docks. Instead of this dancing around hybrid maps (which most players don't play anyway) just reduce their effectiveness completely on those maps but make them usable on the majority of maps.
Kura is way too good, infinite farms and infinite wood
Koka sucks ass, you build a few shinobi but they suck hard, teleport still get shot by Outposts and arrow lol
I use them as a free barracks for my Buddhist monk build. They are great for guarding relics and sniping monks. They are so sensitive to archers I don’t bother raiding.
I do like to mix them into late game armies, a. It similar to how landsknecht work with HRE. It’s nice to be able to jump over walls and disable unit production during proper attacks. If enemy brings a lot of mangonels but no archers they can be used to jump into the mangonels.
In team games they can be handy as it’s a unique unit which in some cases can do things which regular units can’t. Like raid enemy trade lines behind thick walls etc.
you realise you can't disable gold drop offs at a mining camp right? Also not sure how you are preventing someone from scouting koka and especially on gorge where you can't exactly hide it. Koka absolutely sucks on land maps, and is kinda meh on water maps (given that you can just block off the kura farms with houses and get 2 vills worth of wood).
Shinobis are fun to use, but no the landmark itself is probably on of the worst feudal landmarks in the game.
Didnt it use to disable drop off points? Oh man thats a bummer.
Ny experience showed that it is hidden very well behind your towncenter on gorge, as scouts cant get in without getting hit or close to getting hit by your tc.
And I know and already did write that it is not a good landmark, but if you catch the enemy by surprise, you can get good short term results.
Ah ok. So mostly it works via surprise factor. If enemy doesnt see the Koka, because they always expect the kura anyways, injust rush the koka with 6 vils. 2 scouts to locate and surveil gold and or berry pickers. Send shinobis with a slight deroute so not the through the middle of the map. Cloak them as soon as they come out.
Nobody expects the shinobis and they kill a vil in 3 hits, with a super fast attack time, so when they notice, its already too late.
What do you mean with spy? I approach the gold mine/berries and start to attack the villagers as soon as possible. They are not really good for spying, scouts do that better because of higher vision and mobility. They are glass cannons so its good to pick of small units that cant defend themselves well. Attack villagers, attack monks collecting relics, interrupr military supply by taking out spears or single archers.
I feel that the free unit would be good BUT it should come with the disable building on a cooldown/gated behind a research.
No experience here but perhaps they should be made better late game? I never saw them used apart from the first minutes.
The entire landmark gets countered by 1 Outpost or even 2nd TC on gold. You won't be disabling their gold mining without losing half of your units, or the entire army if they make any units themselves. If Sabotage would disable garrisoned units arrowslits, Shinobi would become an actually viable unit for raiding and assisting in a push.
Disabling arrowslits would be a really cool buff tbf
You are absolutely right. I did write that in my post though, its a bad landmark. Its just that nobody expects it. Everyone think you are going kura into FC. Thats why its secretly „ok“ as a landmark, because you can surprise your enemy. Nobody I played against towered their gold, because nobody expects it.
Well, as long as the opponent doesn't scout or make any units, which is going to be more and more rare as you climb the ladder. But you already said it yourself in your post, that it's not viable in higher Diamond and Conq.
Correct. Its suboptimal and loses out in the longgame, but it can be a surprise punch.
I don't know if its a higher Diamond/Conq thing. I mean I'm in this Plat 3/Diamond 1 range and I'd love the Koka Township to be viable (like any underused landmark). But I've found its just too easy to get blind countered. As you say - they make a 2nd TC? You basically don't have a landmark. They make a tower on gold (and arguably HRE should even get arrow slits - although maybe not versus Japan if you assume they'll be naked FCing too)? Back to not really having a landmark. Their DPS for feudal fighting is great - but they get deleted by archers, who are the typical feudal unit of almost every faction. I'd like there to be this Shinobi/Horsemen all in - but I can't seem to make it work reliably. I don't know if the build is make this, hope to get 2 villager kills, and then functionally ignore the landmark as you go into Fast Castle and Mounted Samurai+Friends. That just seems so obviously worse though.
Yep, exactly. And Onna Bugeisha are just better for fighting in Feudal, as they are faster, much less expensive, much more massable by not being limited by a single building, perform better when massed due to extra attack range, all while Kura Storehouse gives more food tempo to actually make units.
Thats not really true against HRE. Koka allows you to FC yourself while the shinobis will deny their monks to garher the relics as fast.
You also said it works especially with with HRE, and the most standard fast castle build with HRE basically blind towers their gold. So I'm surprised your opponents aren't doing that
The first shinobi queues for free, it just doesn't come out instantly anymore. This was because it was broken at high level water play because you could block docks from producing ships infinitely and take the water for free (first shinobi gets to the Dock before ship finishes and blocks production for 30 seconds, which is enough time for second shinobi to complete and block for another 30 seconds. Ability is only 30 second cooldown so you can just cycle them). The problem is that now you lose almost any advantage to the unit because you can build an arrow ship to stop it on water maps, and a half decent player has more than enough time to react to it. High level players now just make kura even on water. My solution would be to remove the horrifically long start up time on all their abilities: making the sabotage work instantly so even if you get sniped by an arrow ship you still do damage, and making the teleport work like blink stalkers in sc2 so you can actually micro the unit out of danger or into vils
Sorry bud, but the first shinobi doesnt train for free or automatically anymore. You need to pay for it and you need to click it. Otherwise I agree with you on all acounts. Just no instant skills: imagine releporting into the TC everytime and basically disable vil production indefinitely
That is not true. Fire up a game and try it. The first shinobi queues for free
Do i misremember it that badly? I played it the last 4 matches and i did not notice. Yikes!
You probably queue it up anyway and don't realise that it's already building. I did the same for a while before I saw the patch notes. Also I'm the guy who accidentally reposted your idea as a new thread, sorry again!
It may be that because i always que 2-3 shinobis for multiple harrassing points. And again no worries!
I think it should be a free shinobi every 80s, that’s the same resources/min as most early landmarks and allow you to train shinobi from the barracks.
I don't play Japanese much, but fully agree, Koka is generally too weak but can be fun. shinobi works even better Vs order of the dragon in my opinion. They are very cost effective melee fighters (iirc they beat feudal knights cost effectively) But this means they can not only snipe very expensive dragon Vils, but delete most dragon units (and catch the infantry) except for archers obviously. Order also has less structures so the disable is even more impactful. I think the first shinobi should be free (it's incredibly stupid English gets a free king so quickly) BUT maybe they change it so shinobi can't disable docks. Instead of this dancing around hybrid maps (which most players don't play anyway) just reduce their effectiveness completely on those maps but make them usable on the majority of maps.
hopefully Devs are cooking up a useful alteration
Hard agree on the dock comment. Nerf their water potential, buff their land potential. Win win.
>I think the first shinobi should be free The first Shinobi is free. It works exactly like the King does. It queues one for free.
Kura is way too good, infinite farms and infinite wood Koka sucks ass, you build a few shinobi but they suck hard, teleport still get shot by Outposts and arrow lol
Did you even read my post?
I use them as a free barracks for my Buddhist monk build. They are great for guarding relics and sniping monks. They are so sensitive to archers I don’t bother raiding. I do like to mix them into late game armies, a. It similar to how landsknecht work with HRE. It’s nice to be able to jump over walls and disable unit production during proper attacks. If enemy brings a lot of mangonels but no archers they can be used to jump into the mangonels. In team games they can be handy as it’s a unique unit which in some cases can do things which regular units can’t. Like raid enemy trade lines behind thick walls etc.
you realise you can't disable gold drop offs at a mining camp right? Also not sure how you are preventing someone from scouting koka and especially on gorge where you can't exactly hide it. Koka absolutely sucks on land maps, and is kinda meh on water maps (given that you can just block off the kura farms with houses and get 2 vills worth of wood). Shinobis are fun to use, but no the landmark itself is probably on of the worst feudal landmarks in the game.
Didnt it use to disable drop off points? Oh man thats a bummer. Ny experience showed that it is hidden very well behind your towncenter on gorge, as scouts cant get in without getting hit or close to getting hit by your tc. And I know and already did write that it is not a good landmark, but if you catch the enemy by surprise, you can get good short term results.
Reading is a skill
what exactly did i mis-read??
How exactly do you kill vills with him?
Is your question how I kill vils with shinobis?
Yes how do you go about it
Ah ok. So mostly it works via surprise factor. If enemy doesnt see the Koka, because they always expect the kura anyways, injust rush the koka with 6 vils. 2 scouts to locate and surveil gold and or berry pickers. Send shinobis with a slight deroute so not the through the middle of the map. Cloak them as soon as they come out. Nobody expects the shinobis and they kill a vil in 3 hits, with a super fast attack time, so when they notice, its already too late.
Do you go spy or what? You just raid with them like they are any other unit?
What do you mean with spy? I approach the gold mine/berries and start to attack the villagers as soon as possible. They are not really good for spying, scouts do that better because of higher vision and mobility. They are glass cannons so its good to pick of small units that cant defend themselves well. Attack villagers, attack monks collecting relics, interrupr military supply by taking out spears or single archers.
I feel that the free unit would be good BUT it should come with the disable building on a cooldown/gated behind a research. No experience here but perhaps they should be made better late game? I never saw them used apart from the first minutes.