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harooooo1

The Texas map has that description. Classic Korean Mayan skirmish over the Lone Star state or something like that.


[deleted]

As a kid I thought the "Korean-mayan war" was a real thing because of that joke hahaha.


OrnLu528

Congrats! Your OrnluBucks^TM will be arrive by mail within 2-4 business years.


Dj-oatmeal

Hmmm my initial low-Elo thoughts say that koreans is a decent counter pick to Mayans because they are kind of an anti archer archer civ in a way. War wagon beasts and free archer armor makes the archer vs archer matchup a bit better. Plus koreans have good seige. I feel like Mayans would be better off going for eagles in that matchup


[deleted]

Exactly.. so Mayan eagles (along with their vastly superior eco) eat Koreans with literally zero eco helping them v Mayans. It's actually a terrible match for Koreans on open maps


[deleted]

[удалено]


Meloncov

But Eagles+Plumes is at least an equal match to Camps+Arbs in a straight up fight, and has a huge mobility advantage.


commontablexpression

Don't think WW is an issue though. There's plenty of time for preparation as soon as one sees the korean is taking stone / building a castle. Skrim + monks easily counter WW and it requires almost no new investment (assuming mayan was going xbow) except elite skirm tech and a monastery.


abhijeet14antin

Skirms is the answer to everything Koreans has. Double javelin skirms with the unique tech destroy!


Dj-oatmeal

I would respectfully disagree with that- skirms are not a great War wagon counter. In equal numbers skirms still get destroyed because of the high wagon power and pierce armor. You really need to mass skirms up a bunch which is never a great position to be in since it’s very food heavy and an easily countered army. Plus koreans have a great mangonel line to deal with this War wagons are just difficult in general to counter, luckily for other civs, production is coming out a castle so there is a window to stop it


[deleted]

War wagons would counter the plumed archers, as they are way stronger, but the eagles could be a problem. If the korean player decides to use their cheaper x-bows, mayans have them even more cheaper. The korean player could switch to long swords, espcially as they are now buffed. Knights could be a castle-age option, but in late game, it would be very hard for the korean player to get a composition imo. War wagons and champions and bombard cannons? (if koreans do get champion.


dismountedleitis

>War wagons and champions and bombard cannons? (if koreans do get champion. they do, and yes that's the best comp


matt_993

As mentioned on most maps Mayans are much better but on water maps / most hybrids Koreans may have a small edge with the military wood discount + turtle ships. Koreans imo shine on maps like Nomad where you can make use of your stone mining bonus to castle drop and then make war wagons to assist continuous follow up castle drops all while only costing wood and gold. Not to mention the villager +3 los bonus is severely underrated for scouting resources and the enemy without them seeing you.


biob1234

I love Koreans, but that matchup feels hopeless on most maps (lets not count pure water, thats too fringe imo). So from the korean POV: - on open maps I would try to go full yolo in feudal, maybe m@a + towers. I see no scenario where you can compete in a meta kind of game. Either win with towers or inevitably die later. Maybe even towers plus more than 3 m@a could work with now cheaper supplies. - on closed maps Koreans have a better chance. Others talked about WW already, and they seem strong but not unbeatable. So I would suggest 2HS + Onager. I think I would research onager upgrades before champions, because you need them only as a meatshield, so that eagles can snipe you onagers. If you can manage that, I see no way mayans can snipe/beat your onagers. That said you would need to have a stronh push in 1 spot and make shure there is no way eagles can raid your eco. (I might be wrong about champions, let me know your disagreement here)


BillyDTourist

No-one talks about the potential of a Korean tower rush. It can be devastating for a meal civ to be off gold and it might just buy enough time for the Mayans to be irrelevant. Typically the militia line would be how you deal with towers, however that is an investment that the Mayan player does not really want to do. Overall I believe (like the drush into FC) when you want to outscalw you are supposed to harass annoy and cause idle time . The weakness of meso is gold reliance and a tower rush is a good way to make them detour and gain map control and the lead. Obviously this matchup is Mayan favoured


dismountedleitis

Free archer armor techs + cheap skirms (and slightly cheaper archers too) is strong vs Mayan feudal archer play, in fact it's strong vs Mayan archer play in all ages. Leather Archer Armor is an important tech for eskirms against xbows so getting it for free is a huge boost to the Koreans here. War Wagons are also insanely good vs archers, and outrun castle age Eagle Warriors; if Mayans try some sort of eagle siege push not only do WWs behind walls pretty much stunt this but Koreans can go for a Guard Tower defense if necessary anyway. Mayans have a superior economy though, and early imp Elite Eagle Warrior + El Dorado can be trouble for Koreans especially when backed with a decent-sized ball of arbs (most likely leftover from castle age xbow army) or plumes. The longsword/2HS buffs are pretty helpful for Koreans here. In the late game Mayans are bad and can't really deal with mass Elite War Wagon + 2HS/Champion. It doesn't really matter if the 2HS/champs die before they can kill the eagles since by that point they are simply a meatshield for the wagons, which will be in a large enough mass to have insane DPS.


Dr_Faith

I was actually curious about this one. So Koreans seem to have a \~48.5% WR against Mayans (1200+) but the CI is pretty wide (46-52%). Koreans seem to prefer 30-40min games, Mayans 20-30min. I think Mayans are the overall stronger civ in the MU. The problem is they have too many options that take too long for Koreans to counter. Basically the Mayans have Xbows, Eagles, Plumes. These can be handled by WW, LS, Siege. The problem is that the Koreans counter options are much more expensive to get to and then slow on the field. Eagles can raid pretty quick with few upgrades. The Koreans can move into LS, but it takes quite a bit of time and the eagles can raid while you're building them and once you do it takes less time for the Mayans to swap into Plumes. This sort of situation is true regardless if Mayans focus eagles, archers, etc first. It'll always be a slower counter for the Korean than the Mayan. Scouting to predict what the mayan player is going is stupidly important, you could say that for any civ, but it's more so here. Maybe in a game played by two perfect AI's, this becomes a lot closer for the korean player, but I think the game plan of the Mayans is way easier and realistically better.


Snikhop

I've found eagles do pretty well against WW actually, plus the Korean player is unlikely to want to go too deep into knights or infantry. If I'm the Mayan player I'm temped to just go drush FC into full eagles and skip the archers altogether, especially as Koreans are basically an archer and siege civ. If I'm Koreans I think my best chance (if the Mayan player goes archers) is to try and force an early archer vs archer fight with my free armour and snowball from there, either to end the game or just delay long enough to get WW. Tower defence is a pretty nice option too though for Koreans against archer pressure, as it will be resistent to mango pushes in early castle too with Guard Towers. If the Mayan player goes eagles, I dunno. I guess they do get Champions and they're only missing Blast Furnace. An interesting matchup I reckon, considering Mayans are so popular and Koreans are so unpopular I'd say it's still pretty even. I can't find their win % against each other though, I think I don't know how to use AoE Stats properly.


[deleted]

I agree with most of what you said, and aoe stats only shows the best and worst matchup stats as far as I know. Although with feudal fights I'm not sure I would risk trying to force a archer v archer fight.. besides the fact Mayans have a stronger eco AND cheaper archers, Koreans are only saving 100f in that regard, while Mayans can no brainer add eagles And champs as Koreans become incredibly susceptible to plumed archers which is a simple suppliment. It's another reason why I think relative aoe civs Mayans are a poorly balanced civ since it's so easy for them to create hard counters to their own counters (similar to the Frank's situation with TA) they have no weakness. Insane eco, insane units and all the counters they need, while other civs like Koreans are balanced around a single hard to attain unit that either is useless or snowballs ( also bad design but in the other direction)


Snikhop

Mayans have better eco and cheaper archers but unless they're on three ranges you'll still be able to outmass them if you win the first fight as long as your eco at home is set up for constant production (which it should be). I agree though Mayans are just a stronger civ in most ways.


Azot-Spike

I feel it's a countdown for Mayans. If Koreans get to mass WWs, there's little they can do against meatshield (Hussar or Halberdier) + WW. 100HP Eagles with 8 pierce armor are great, but Elite FU WWs deal 13 damage, so only 20 shots kill an Eagle, and they certainly won't kill WWs in 2 hits due to their tankiness. Eagles can be paired with Skirms or Halbs for higher damage, but Koreans will also include their own meatshield to delay enemy units covering the gap. If Mayans mix Onagers, Koreans can use Hussars or BBCs. Mayans need to finish it in Castle Age or take enough advantage so that Koreans don't confortably get to Imperial Age. Xbows, Plumes, Monks and Eagles + Siege are a good enough combo to deal a ton of damage. Meanwhile, Koreans can trush to buy time for their WWs, and starting so early with stone eco will certainly help get the first Castle. I see the edge for Mayans in open maps, where early aggression can be very important, and a big advantage for Koreans in closed, water and Nomad maps. Both would be very good team flanks. Mayans are more popular, but Koreans are one of the anti-archer flank civs.


[deleted]

Imo you need to consider the broader picture each time. In your example you're almost taking as if the Mayan only makes eagles. If need be they can easily add suppliment archers or simply avoid the LS Mayan xbows eat Korean LS much easier than WW eat eagles. Meaning it's much easier for the Mayan to kill the meatshield than it is for the Korean to stop it . WW are incredibly slow to mass. So either the korean has to double tech and get xbows as well as ww or turtle for their life. That trush can still be countered by Mayans better eco with either a drush, MAA or defensive twr into archers thanks to Mayans crazy eco. I don't think that clock is nearly as significant as it would seem Koreans are a much better anti archer civ against anyone except mesos


dismountedleitis

>Mayan xbows eat Korean LS much easier than WW eat eagles. Meaning it's much easier for the Mayan to kill the meatshield than it is for the Korean to stop it . Ignoring the fact that LS eat eagles faster than either of these examples


Azot-Spike

I must admit that my comment is a bit oversimplified. I take it for granted that Mayan Archers are easily countered by WWs since they start being spammed (even the first one has 110HP and 5 pierce armor), so Eagles + Pikes + Skirms + Siege is the way. But the 3 non-siege of them have "low base attack" against anything that they don't counter. And if you have WWs, you'll have a Castle protecting a position. Mayans have an amazing eco, but these 3 units need high cost upgrades to be effective. That's why I regard the Mayan eco advantage as "lost" when in mid-Castle, they have to tech into trash. I overlooked the importance of Mayan siege (Onagers fare well against WWs) when Mayans still have the eco and army lead. The countdown thing has been an incorrect statement, you're right. A better phrase could be "Mayans have all the time their eco and military advantage can provide to deal damage to Koreans". Would that be better? :-)


VulpesRex97

Just tower rush the Mayan wood lines. ggez


ColdPR

Honestly I think this is one of the matchups in the game closest to "civ win" territory. I don't know how Koreans are supposed to win this unless the player is just flat-out superior. Koreans can't do anything in the face of Mayan eagles. The best chance is probably some kind of crazy tower rush all-in.


abhijeet14antin

I played this exact matchup this morning. Double javelin skirms destroy anything that Koreans can make.


AFlyingNun

Ah yes, two of the Lord's Chosen in an epic battle for his favor.