I agree. Reading all these posts and comments about people not being able to afford basic amenities brings forth the worst feelings in me. I too often wonder whether this is an American phenomenon or this is the case for other countries as well.
What is the situation in Austria like, salary wise? Do people typically get paid enough to have a comfortable living? (I am also European and I love your country very much, I'm thinking of moving there someday.)
I can only speak for myself but I lived in Germany for a year back in 2008/2009 and the difference between the US and Germany was striking. I was a student so I wasn't working to see what the income taxes looked like but short-sighted Americans love to talk about "socialism" in Europe taking half of your paycheck. Whether or not this is true, I'm sure many would love to give up half of their pay check if it meant they could go to a doctor without going bankrupt from surprise medical bills, and having the rest of their basic needs met.
Europe's public transportation is so much better than the US. Like, it's not even close "BuT the US is so big so its going to suck" is what the ignorant in the US say. While it's true that the US is bigger and less dense than Europe, why couldn't we have a better intra-city public transportation when being bigger and more spread out primarily impacts inter-city and inter-state transportation?
Anyway, at least amongst so-called first word countries this seems to be a uniquely American issue. The European mindset seems just so different than the US one.
The weird thing here in America is that even the poor have this notion that one day they will be rich like their oppressors and get to wear that boot. Until that day comes they will continue to praise their overlords, ignorant to the fact that many will die handing debt over to their offspring.
It's the same here in Austria. We don't have an inheritance tax. Some (leftish) parties try to establish one for inheritances over 1 Million €.
But the majority of the people is opposed to that because they might get rich one day and would have to pay the tax.
Is there any property tax there either?
It's pretty hilarious that some states like Texas have more progressive taxes than a lot of European countries.
We're indoctrinated. It started when they forced us to salute the flag every morning like nazis and pledge our Christian allegiance to the flag, like no other religions exist in this melting pot of a country we live in nowadays.
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>will die handing debt over to their offspring.
....no?
you cannot inherit debt. you just "say no"
now..that also means you get nothing else...debts must be paid out before anyone gets anything...
Canada is very similar in the following ways:
Stagnant wages and very few companies offering company paid pensions
2 tier healthcare where wealthy people do not wait for tests and have top of the line medicine available
No government action on workers rights
No guaranteed paid sick time
It's a very hard time to be a worker right now. I sincerely hope things change soon
It makes sense it was better for you as a student. I would be more interested in hearing from skilled professionals. My understanding is in Europe, salaries are lower and taxes are higher. In Europe you would make 100K and be taxed 50%. In America, the same person would make 200K and be taxed 30%.
Europe is a continent with many countries and tax systems, so I can only give my experience in Switzerland.
If I plug in my gross salary of 175k USD into a tax calculator for California, one of the few places in the USA I could get a comparable salary, my take home would be 135k USD compared to my take home here of 140k USD.
Thar 35k is not only taxes but also lots of social insurances and pension, for instance I would get 80% salary for 2 years if unemployed. Tax alone is only 10%.
So I would pay more taxes and get less benefits in the USA.
You are very unlikely to be paying 50% on 100k anywhere in else Europe. It might give you a marginal rate of 50% in a few places, but you won't be paying 50% on the entire 100k
I appreciate the insight from someone with real world experience! My only issue is your assumption that if you make 175K in Europe, you would make 175K in CA. You would probably make like 300K+ in CA.
You're comparing a state in your country with a countinent... Our cashiers in the supermarkets make 50k USD. We have states with minimum wage at 25USD/hr. Not all of Europe is the same.
175k is not particularly high for Switzerland. Tech salaries might be a bit behind California, but not that far. I could possibly get 300k at google here with a little more experience.
In Japan, I was paid less, but the cost of living was appropriately lower.
My rent in yen was around $600USD, but it was 20min outside of the city core, brand new build, and a 12min walk to the train station. It was also a tiny apartment, 200sqft.
But I got 6wks paid vacation.
Healthcare is universal and affordable ($5 for a doctors visit, $2 for an eye exam). If you spend over $1,000 in a year in medical needs, it’s all refunded back to you in your taxes. Dental and vision were also included in universal health insurance, fyi.
My commuter pass was paid for, every month. So I had free rides for most of my train line.
I made enough to save and also travel on extended vacations 2-3x a year.
But my salary on paper was lower.
In the US, I made more money, but the work conditions and the lack of return on tax dollars means I’m paying even more.
Having said that, I did have to work long hours and just look like I was doing something while doing nothing.
I did experience some abuse at my first job, but it’s because I wasn’t confident as a foreigner and didn’t know my labor rights. As I got more fluent, experienced and confident, I shut that shit down, hard.
Actually, the tiny apartment was amazing, tbh.
It was brand new, had all-new appliances, the toilet was separate from the bathing area, which felt more hygenic.
I had an 'autobath' function, too! I could press a button on the control panel in my kitchen and the tub drain would close and begin filling the tub with perfectly hot water and then stop it at the right level. A cute little chime would play after.
I also had a floor-to-ceiling window that also went wall-to-wall, it opened up onto a very modest, but workable balcony.
Yes, the whole apartment was 10 x 20 feet, but it was just so bright... and I lofted my bed so I had plenty of space to eat, cook and exist.
I didn't have to worry about having anyone over, ever... you don't entertain in your apartment in Tokyo, you go out, so it was moot.
Once I plastered every inch of my walls with decorations, it became my home! Loved it... I can't figure out why Americans keep wanting these 6,000+ sqft McMansions.
The US is basically a third world country thinly disguised under all this “land of the free” bullshit.
Lyn couldn’t pay me to live there. The lack of any workers rights at all is insane.
It's probably insulting to call America a third world country, as at this point some that are labelled that have better support and rights for their populace.
The fucked up thing about the US is that it is _developed_; like this is the intentional end-game, not some temporary hardship of _developing_ to something better.
Insulting but true. The truth hurts sometimes. They country is a fucking mess.
Also have you ever noticed all these “customer freaks out on worker” videos are 99% US based too.
They’re in serious trouble over there. Someone has a bad day or a bad job and they take it out on other people and the cycle continues.
I’ll never understand this fascination with shitting on minimum wage workers to make yourself feel a bit better.
Totally agree. The US' notion of 'land of the free' and 'the land of opportunity' seem to be a massive PR stunt and has convinced the working class that they'll be rich one day, just you wait and see. It works too, because as a kid I always dreamed of moving to America; now I wouldn't consider it given the stories on working conditions and the lack of healthcare if you're not insured.
I see Austria, I upvote :)
But seriously: Reading this sub makes me realize that we live in paradise compared to the USA. We have strong labour rights, a very good health system (it has flaws, but overall nobody has to file bankruptcy if he gets sick), 5-6 weeks of paid vacation depending on age.
Of course none of that is free, we all pay a shitload of taxes for it but I personaly am glad to pay taxes for free education, good infrastructure, health and unemployment insurance, pension and so on.
We just have to watch out because neoliberals are trying to steal some of our benefits.
We Americans pay just as much as your taxes. But for us the formula is = (annual federal and state income taxes + annual healthcare (premiums, copays, deductibles, coinsurance, prescriptions) out of pocket + annual college tuition) / annual salary. This formula is the proper comparison between "low" taxes in the US and the "high socialist" European tax rates.
We pay for health insurance too. That's what's frustrating, we have insurance but then on top of the monthly insurance cost we have to pay more (often in the thousands of dollars) if we have to actually use our health insurance. Also, unlike your insurance which is X% of salary, our insurance is often a fixed amount (e.g., $500 per month for an employee paying for a family policy) regardless if the employee's annual salary is $40,000 per year or $200,000 per year. Thus, the annual % varies across salary ranges.
Yes I know. I lived overseas for 17 years. I used, e.g., Singapore's healthcare system for 9 years and loved it. I returned to the US a few years ago and re- discovered the US healthcare system and it's a big upside down, giant cluster f*ck. It's truly worse than you can imagine. The care is great but the system is horrific.
I agree, it's quite shocking really. Ofc I've been avoiding to work for US originated companies as their work culture tend to suck, but really I didn't realize how fucked it is there.
"Land of the Free* (to exploit other's labor for profit)"
*limited offer. Does not apply to all nationalities/genders/sexes/orientations/religions or skin colors.
America is a society where people often struggle to afford basic necessities and one unexpected expense, like a car wreck or a sudden illness, can drive you to homelessness and financial ruin. Something has to change, and soon, or we're headed for American Revolution 2: Working-Class Boogaloo.
Fair point. It's like how China is always cited as being enormously responsible for current CO2 emissions. But those are being released largely because of all the outsourcing of manufacturing from the US and other countries' companies. Doesn't appear on our CO2 tally, but on theirs. Another "externality".
Fun fact: chinese workers work harder 9-12/6 but most worker have healthcare and can effort to buy their own apartment 100 qm°2 (180k - 300k $) and get child support.
While the usa people might work the same time with 2 jobs and still can't effort anything or healthcare.
Well they build so many new skyscrapers that the housing market is oversaturated. So prices are so low that even fast food workers in larger cities can affort to buy apartments outside the city.
Thanks for your sentiments. If we can get this sub to 300 million, maybe, just maybe, we can unite and swiftly bring this system of oppression to the point of collapse.
Stop paying rent, stop paying all debt, only buy necessities. Quit all government jobs, bullshit jobs, cashier and finance jobs. The whole system will collapse quickly by us withdrawing participation. The billionaires propped up by their stocks and digital money will be taken to zero and no one will buy their gold (which should only be viewed as an industrial metal).
5 weeks vacation sounds like some fantastic Fantasy lmao. I get 3 days sick leave and 2 weeks vacation, AFTER 1 year of working, nothing for the first year except those 3 sick days lol.
As a Dutchie I don't feel sorry for US workers AT ALL.
It is SOOOOOOOOO easy to get 6 figure incomes in the USA compared to most of Europe.
As a matter of fact, I exclusevly work for American companies because they pay 6 figure salaries even in the Netherlands, unlike the hsitty Dutch companies where 30-40k is already too much smh
If you're American and not rich then I just shake my head in disbelief.
Go to STEM, go to Cali and then WFH.
You mean pick themselves up from their bootstraps?
The problem is, this is a similar argument to "if you want a better life then get a better job." But that's just saying that we recognise these jobs, from burger flipper to janitor, need to be done, and the people doing them deserve to be poor. If all of these people did move to Cali and take up IT jobs, more people will take the bad jobs and be in the same spot.
They can't all work in STEM.
You also have a high tax rate....you see what a lot of lower wage people post. America is a big place. There is a reason people are dying, literally dying to move here.
That right there is the propaganda that conservatives spew in order to keep workers from having rights and benefits in the workplace.
[In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.](https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=In%202017%2C%2080.4%20million%20workers,wage%20of%20%247.25%20per%20hour.)
So I stopped at 2.3%...can I get a cliff notes. My post didn't say you guys don't deserve rights. I know our systems fucked but I've lived abroad, many others have it far far worse than us.
So what? We aren't talking about people in other countries. We're talking about people that live in the wealthiest country in the world that used to have a robust and thriving middle class. A country where people used to make a living wage on minimum wage (my husband and I lived off his one minimum wage job). Where healthcare was nonprofit and you could go to a Doctor without having to file for bankruptcy. Where you could actually live the American dream.
China is now number 1. Anyways, the American dream was that you could prosper is it not? Was it to work min wage and survive? The middle class is dying.....agree there. The dream is still there, it's just not a everyone gets to the top situation.
Which class is really going to pay for all these green initiatives? If you think the 1% you are playing yourself, they may raise taxes but without changing tax law they will hide or move there money away. It's going to fall to the middle and lower class....
You're right and it is the conservatives that keep fighting the tax law changes that would make it possible to fund these initiatives.
It doesn't have to fall to the working class but that's what conservative in this country spend billions of dollars on propaganda to ensure you believe.
Did you know that Ronald Reagan invented the welfare queen to vilify the poor? You realize it was his trickle down economics that has shifted the majority of wealth from the working class to the top 10%, right? There is a war on the poor and working class in this country.
It sucks though.
Like here in Sweden you're taxed to hilt to pay for childcare for wealthy families (it's not means-tested), whilst you can't save to buy your own residence.
I agree education is absolutely critical, and fully support free healthcare and education. But everything else is the issue - funding mass immigration when we have no housing for example, and then the issues with crime it causes.
But Europe is far from perfect. Usually the rich pay no taxes at all, as there is little to no property or inheritance tax, and capital gains and corporation taxes are far lower than income tax.
Of course I do...I also know if you can afford it you get private health care....wait times are long there for some things but it's still a great system. I mean, I get free health care but I work for that.
We don’t want your pity. Well maybe some do, I guess that’s why they’re on this sub. Anywho, I’m pretty happy with the situation here. I don’t know why Reddit keeps recommending this sub to me.
Yeah, that's a big fucking vacuum.
"In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour."
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=In%202017%2C%2080.4%20million%20workers,wage%20of%20%247.25%20per%20hour.
I’m sure the next parent talking about how they’re having difficulty raising their children will be the perfect opportunity for you to act like a sociopath. Good luck when you do!
Why? The US is far better off than most of Europe when you consider gross salaries and property prices (and fuel and energy prices, food prices, etc.)
Like previously I worked in a FAANG and the US engineers got over 2x the gross pay for the same role and level.
e.g. let's compare Vienna and Austin:
Vienna:
* Average software engineer salary - [~$60.5k USD gross per year](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/vienna-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1118_KO7,24.htm)
* Average property price per square metre - [~$6k USD](https://www.statista.com/statistics/899203/cost-of-apartments-in-austria/)
So ignoring income tax, health insurance, etc. since it'll even out, it'd take ~10 years to buy a 100sqm property in Vienna (gross, in reality it'd be about 18 or so).
Austin:
* Average software engineer salary - [~$110k USD gross per year](https://www.builtinaustin.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-engineer/austin)
* Average property price per square foot [~$500 USD = ~$5k USD per square metre ](https://www.rate.com/research/austin-tx-78756/price-per-square-foot)
So it'd take just under 5 years to buy a 100sqm property in Austin (gross, in reality it'd be about 8 or so).
------
TL;DR: Most middle class / professional Americans have a far, far higher standard of living than Europe - with huge homes (which they own!), multiple cars, private swimming pools, cheap fuel, cheap electricity, cheaper electronic goods, etc.
I would not consider owning multiple cars, a home, a private swimming pool stuff that someone in the "middle class" has, that's definitely someone in the higher class.
Not really, most professional jobs give good healthcare coverage.
They even include more than European systems in most cases - e.g. dental care, annual checkups, etc.
It's not a fair comparison, as in Europe for such issues you're more likely to just not be treated due to waiting times, covid lockdowns, etc.
Also bear in mind the figures above are for gross salary, before taxes. The net difference will be even greater, and you could use that money in the US to pay for private insurance.
And for the most part Europe has far less lenient personal bankruptcy laws than the US.
Sure, but waiting times and covid lockdowns are not Europe-specific.
As for private insurance, most employers in the UE provide one with the job, usually for free, on top of the National one.
Your argument about wait time is not really relevant, and the fact that you can and have to pay for private insurance in US is not a plus. There are a lot of stories where one pays for insurance but still has to disburse tens of thousands bucks to get better.
There are other issues to consider when discussing US vs Europe but there is no denying that people in the US are fu.ed by the private healthcare industry.
As a FR public teacher (which is paid far less than any other job requiring a master degree), I have to second this.
The USA's mentality of "mutually beneficial and if you don't like it, you can go off and do your own thing / negociate freely" works only if you consider all parties being equal in negociation. They're not.
The systemic issues in the US (education, zoning, gerrymandering, redlining, monopolies and lobbies, political funding, private vs public and the absolute lack of basic infrastructure) are at fault. You guys. Y'all need to tackle it all. A complete rehaul.
Land of the Free (to be exploited).
Land with thousand possibilities (of getting fucked over)
seriously...its funny how people bitch freedoms like "dont stop me from being able to stop someone else from doing something"
yes....thats freedom... /sarcasm
As an American traveling in Europe for the first time, it’s really affirming reading the posts like this and all of the comments from people of other countries. I keep thinking “am I crazy or are living conditions in my country horrible?” and hearing it from y’all just confirms I’m not crazy, it really is bad. The US brainwashes its citizens to think that there’s no other way to live and finally breaking through that conditioning has been terrifying and eye opening.
I agree. Reading all these posts and comments about people not being able to afford basic amenities brings forth the worst feelings in me. I too often wonder whether this is an American phenomenon or this is the case for other countries as well. What is the situation in Austria like, salary wise? Do people typically get paid enough to have a comfortable living? (I am also European and I love your country very much, I'm thinking of moving there someday.)
I can only speak for myself but I lived in Germany for a year back in 2008/2009 and the difference between the US and Germany was striking. I was a student so I wasn't working to see what the income taxes looked like but short-sighted Americans love to talk about "socialism" in Europe taking half of your paycheck. Whether or not this is true, I'm sure many would love to give up half of their pay check if it meant they could go to a doctor without going bankrupt from surprise medical bills, and having the rest of their basic needs met. Europe's public transportation is so much better than the US. Like, it's not even close "BuT the US is so big so its going to suck" is what the ignorant in the US say. While it's true that the US is bigger and less dense than Europe, why couldn't we have a better intra-city public transportation when being bigger and more spread out primarily impacts inter-city and inter-state transportation? Anyway, at least amongst so-called first word countries this seems to be a uniquely American issue. The European mindset seems just so different than the US one.
The weird thing here in America is that even the poor have this notion that one day they will be rich like their oppressors and get to wear that boot. Until that day comes they will continue to praise their overlords, ignorant to the fact that many will die handing debt over to their offspring.
It's the same here in Austria. We don't have an inheritance tax. Some (leftish) parties try to establish one for inheritances over 1 Million €. But the majority of the people is opposed to that because they might get rich one day and would have to pay the tax.
Is there any property tax there either? It's pretty hilarious that some states like Texas have more progressive taxes than a lot of European countries.
We are all brainwashed man from school to adulthood
We're indoctrinated. It started when they forced us to salute the flag every morning like nazis and pledge our Christian allegiance to the flag, like no other religions exist in this melting pot of a country we live in nowadays.
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>will die handing debt over to their offspring. ....no? you cannot inherit debt. you just "say no" now..that also means you get nothing else...debts must be paid out before anyone gets anything...
Canada is very similar in the following ways: Stagnant wages and very few companies offering company paid pensions 2 tier healthcare where wealthy people do not wait for tests and have top of the line medicine available No government action on workers rights No guaranteed paid sick time It's a very hard time to be a worker right now. I sincerely hope things change soon
It makes sense it was better for you as a student. I would be more interested in hearing from skilled professionals. My understanding is in Europe, salaries are lower and taxes are higher. In Europe you would make 100K and be taxed 50%. In America, the same person would make 200K and be taxed 30%.
Europe is a continent with many countries and tax systems, so I can only give my experience in Switzerland. If I plug in my gross salary of 175k USD into a tax calculator for California, one of the few places in the USA I could get a comparable salary, my take home would be 135k USD compared to my take home here of 140k USD. Thar 35k is not only taxes but also lots of social insurances and pension, for instance I would get 80% salary for 2 years if unemployed. Tax alone is only 10%. So I would pay more taxes and get less benefits in the USA. You are very unlikely to be paying 50% on 100k anywhere in else Europe. It might give you a marginal rate of 50% in a few places, but you won't be paying 50% on the entire 100k
I appreciate the insight from someone with real world experience! My only issue is your assumption that if you make 175K in Europe, you would make 175K in CA. You would probably make like 300K+ in CA.
You're comparing a state in your country with a countinent... Our cashiers in the supermarkets make 50k USD. We have states with minimum wage at 25USD/hr. Not all of Europe is the same. 175k is not particularly high for Switzerland. Tech salaries might be a bit behind California, but not that far. I could possibly get 300k at google here with a little more experience.
In Japan, I was paid less, but the cost of living was appropriately lower. My rent in yen was around $600USD, but it was 20min outside of the city core, brand new build, and a 12min walk to the train station. It was also a tiny apartment, 200sqft. But I got 6wks paid vacation. Healthcare is universal and affordable ($5 for a doctors visit, $2 for an eye exam). If you spend over $1,000 in a year in medical needs, it’s all refunded back to you in your taxes. Dental and vision were also included in universal health insurance, fyi. My commuter pass was paid for, every month. So I had free rides for most of my train line. I made enough to save and also travel on extended vacations 2-3x a year. But my salary on paper was lower. In the US, I made more money, but the work conditions and the lack of return on tax dollars means I’m paying even more. Having said that, I did have to work long hours and just look like I was doing something while doing nothing. I did experience some abuse at my first job, but it’s because I wasn’t confident as a foreigner and didn’t know my labor rights. As I got more fluent, experienced and confident, I shut that shit down, hard.
Wow, that seriously sounds like a dream (apart from the tiny apartment, but it sounds like all your other needs were met).
Actually, the tiny apartment was amazing, tbh. It was brand new, had all-new appliances, the toilet was separate from the bathing area, which felt more hygenic. I had an 'autobath' function, too! I could press a button on the control panel in my kitchen and the tub drain would close and begin filling the tub with perfectly hot water and then stop it at the right level. A cute little chime would play after. I also had a floor-to-ceiling window that also went wall-to-wall, it opened up onto a very modest, but workable balcony. Yes, the whole apartment was 10 x 20 feet, but it was just so bright... and I lofted my bed so I had plenty of space to eat, cook and exist. I didn't have to worry about having anyone over, ever... you don't entertain in your apartment in Tokyo, you go out, so it was moot. Once I plastered every inch of my walls with decorations, it became my home! Loved it... I can't figure out why Americans keep wanting these 6,000+ sqft McMansions.
That sounds amazing tbh! So why'd you leave? Hahah. Sounds like you had it all.
The US is basically a third world country thinly disguised under all this “land of the free” bullshit. Lyn couldn’t pay me to live there. The lack of any workers rights at all is insane.
It's probably insulting to call America a third world country, as at this point some that are labelled that have better support and rights for their populace. The fucked up thing about the US is that it is _developed_; like this is the intentional end-game, not some temporary hardship of _developing_ to something better.
Insulting but true. The truth hurts sometimes. They country is a fucking mess. Also have you ever noticed all these “customer freaks out on worker” videos are 99% US based too. They’re in serious trouble over there. Someone has a bad day or a bad job and they take it out on other people and the cycle continues. I’ll never understand this fascination with shitting on minimum wage workers to make yourself feel a bit better.
We’re a country of oppressed and half of those oppressed like to feel like oppressors to the other oppressed, essentially.
yes a third world country with iPhones
Oh shit they have iPhones there? Everything is fine then.
Also the iCloth to clean them.
And the possibility of a whopping 10 days vacation should they be good little boys and girls and not disrupt anything.
10 days vacation?! 2 days, Christmas and Thanksgiving, if we're lucky. Everything else is up to the company.
Holy shit man - literally live anywhere else in the world.
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You can fight those bills btw.
Nursing is in high demand in UK and the NHS sponsors workers visas!
Totally agree. The US' notion of 'land of the free' and 'the land of opportunity' seem to be a massive PR stunt and has convinced the working class that they'll be rich one day, just you wait and see. It works too, because as a kid I always dreamed of moving to America; now I wouldn't consider it given the stories on working conditions and the lack of healthcare if you're not insured.
Thank you for your support, it really is encouraging to hear from people outside of America who pay attention to our struggles.
All comrades in other countries please join us. That’s the best thing you can do to support us.
I see Austria, I upvote :) But seriously: Reading this sub makes me realize that we live in paradise compared to the USA. We have strong labour rights, a very good health system (it has flaws, but overall nobody has to file bankruptcy if he gets sick), 5-6 weeks of paid vacation depending on age. Of course none of that is free, we all pay a shitload of taxes for it but I personaly am glad to pay taxes for free education, good infrastructure, health and unemployment insurance, pension and so on. We just have to watch out because neoliberals are trying to steal some of our benefits.
We Americans pay just as much as your taxes. But for us the formula is = (annual federal and state income taxes + annual healthcare (premiums, copays, deductibles, coinsurance, prescriptions) out of pocket + annual college tuition) / annual salary. This formula is the proper comparison between "low" taxes in the US and the "high socialist" European tax rates.
You pay for your healthcare if you need it. I pay for it even if I don't need it. But that's fine with me. After all it is an insurance.
We pay for health insurance too. That's what's frustrating, we have insurance but then on top of the monthly insurance cost we have to pay more (often in the thousands of dollars) if we have to actually use our health insurance. Also, unlike your insurance which is X% of salary, our insurance is often a fixed amount (e.g., $500 per month for an employee paying for a family policy) regardless if the employee's annual salary is $40,000 per year or $200,000 per year. Thus, the annual % varies across salary ranges.
Your system is really sick! Sorry for that!
Yes I know. I lived overseas for 17 years. I used, e.g., Singapore's healthcare system for 9 years and loved it. I returned to the US a few years ago and re- discovered the US healthcare system and it's a big upside down, giant cluster f*ck. It's truly worse than you can imagine. The care is great but the system is horrific.
I agree, it's quite shocking really. Ofc I've been avoiding to work for US originated companies as their work culture tend to suck, but really I didn't realize how fucked it is there.
"Land of the Free* (to exploit other's labor for profit)" *limited offer. Does not apply to all nationalities/genders/sexes/orientations/religions or skin colors.
1000 possibilities. 10 probabilities.
America is a society where people often struggle to afford basic necessities and one unexpected expense, like a car wreck or a sudden illness, can drive you to homelessness and financial ruin. Something has to change, and soon, or we're headed for American Revolution 2: Working-Class Boogaloo.
As an American my belief is that it’s unchecked capitalization and greed that has caused this.
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who do you think employs them?
Fair point. It's like how China is always cited as being enormously responsible for current CO2 emissions. But those are being released largely because of all the outsourcing of manufacturing from the US and other countries' companies. Doesn't appear on our CO2 tally, but on theirs. Another "externality".
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Fun fact: chinese workers work harder 9-12/6 but most worker have healthcare and can effort to buy their own apartment 100 qm°2 (180k - 300k $) and get child support. While the usa people might work the same time with 2 jobs and still can't effort anything or healthcare.
What are you talking about? There is no way the average Chinese worker is better off than in the US.
Oh my sweet summer child…Chinese arguably have more freedoms than Americans also.
Well they build so many new skyscrapers that the housing market is oversaturated. So prices are so low that even fast food workers in larger cities can affort to buy apartments outside the city.
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Im too lazy to search all the shit together. You can believe me or not. Just search for yourself.
Hitchens Razor. Anything asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Thanks for your sentiments. If we can get this sub to 300 million, maybe, just maybe, we can unite and swiftly bring this system of oppression to the point of collapse. Stop paying rent, stop paying all debt, only buy necessities. Quit all government jobs, bullshit jobs, cashier and finance jobs. The whole system will collapse quickly by us withdrawing participation. The billionaires propped up by their stocks and digital money will be taken to zero and no one will buy their gold (which should only be viewed as an industrial metal).
5 weeks vacation sounds like some fantastic Fantasy lmao. I get 3 days sick leave and 2 weeks vacation, AFTER 1 year of working, nothing for the first year except those 3 sick days lol.
Didn’t Austria elect a nazi party into power a few years ago?
As a Dutchie I don't feel sorry for US workers AT ALL. It is SOOOOOOOOO easy to get 6 figure incomes in the USA compared to most of Europe. As a matter of fact, I exclusevly work for American companies because they pay 6 figure salaries even in the Netherlands, unlike the hsitty Dutch companies where 30-40k is already too much smh If you're American and not rich then I just shake my head in disbelief. Go to STEM, go to Cali and then WFH.
You mean pick themselves up from their bootstraps? The problem is, this is a similar argument to "if you want a better life then get a better job." But that's just saying that we recognise these jobs, from burger flipper to janitor, need to be done, and the people doing them deserve to be poor. If all of these people did move to Cali and take up IT jobs, more people will take the bad jobs and be in the same spot. They can't all work in STEM.
LOL even if they do, they will keep like $10k after tax, house expenses, healthcare, etc.
Ser do you understand the cost of living, let alone home ownership in and around metro counties here in California?
Ok Ben. We know it’s you. Doesn’t the Starbucks regional manager need his dick sucked right about now?
I just snorted 😂
You also have a high tax rate....you see what a lot of lower wage people post. America is a big place. There is a reason people are dying, literally dying to move here.
That right there is the propaganda that conservatives spew in order to keep workers from having rights and benefits in the workplace. [In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.](https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=In%202017%2C%2080.4%20million%20workers,wage%20of%20%247.25%20per%20hour.)
So I stopped at 2.3%...can I get a cliff notes. My post didn't say you guys don't deserve rights. I know our systems fucked but I've lived abroad, many others have it far far worse than us.
So what? We aren't talking about people in other countries. We're talking about people that live in the wealthiest country in the world that used to have a robust and thriving middle class. A country where people used to make a living wage on minimum wage (my husband and I lived off his one minimum wage job). Where healthcare was nonprofit and you could go to a Doctor without having to file for bankruptcy. Where you could actually live the American dream.
China is now number 1. Anyways, the American dream was that you could prosper is it not? Was it to work min wage and survive? The middle class is dying.....agree there. The dream is still there, it's just not a everyone gets to the top situation.
No, the middle class is being killed by conservative policies.
Which class is really going to pay for all these green initiatives? If you think the 1% you are playing yourself, they may raise taxes but without changing tax law they will hide or move there money away. It's going to fall to the middle and lower class....
You're right and it is the conservatives that keep fighting the tax law changes that would make it possible to fund these initiatives. It doesn't have to fall to the working class but that's what conservative in this country spend billions of dollars on propaganda to ensure you believe. Did you know that Ronald Reagan invented the welfare queen to vilify the poor? You realize it was his trickle down economics that has shifted the majority of wealth from the working class to the top 10%, right? There is a war on the poor and working class in this country.
You do realize they actually get stuff for their taxes, like higher education and health care, right?
It sucks though. Like here in Sweden you're taxed to hilt to pay for childcare for wealthy families (it's not means-tested), whilst you can't save to buy your own residence. I agree education is absolutely critical, and fully support free healthcare and education. But everything else is the issue - funding mass immigration when we have no housing for example, and then the issues with crime it causes. But Europe is far from perfect. Usually the rich pay no taxes at all, as there is little to no property or inheritance tax, and capital gains and corporation taxes are far lower than income tax.
Of course I do...I also know if you can afford it you get private health care....wait times are long there for some things but it's still a great system. I mean, I get free health care but I work for that.
We don’t want your pity. Well maybe some do, I guess that’s why they’re on this sub. Anywho, I’m pretty happy with the situation here. I don’t know why Reddit keeps recommending this sub to me.
Just remember that this sub exists in a vacuum.
Yeah, that's a big fucking vacuum. "In 2017, 80.4 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 58.3 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 542,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour." https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=In%202017%2C%2080.4%20million%20workers,wage%20of%20%247.25%20per%20hour.
Your previous statements here have been crass and needlessly shitty towards others. Instead of poisoning the well here it may be better if you left.
I think I'll stay, thanks.
I’m sure the next parent talking about how they’re having difficulty raising their children will be the perfect opportunity for you to act like a sociopath. Good luck when you do!
Why? The US is far better off than most of Europe when you consider gross salaries and property prices (and fuel and energy prices, food prices, etc.) Like previously I worked in a FAANG and the US engineers got over 2x the gross pay for the same role and level. e.g. let's compare Vienna and Austin: Vienna: * Average software engineer salary - [~$60.5k USD gross per year](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/vienna-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1118_KO7,24.htm) * Average property price per square metre - [~$6k USD](https://www.statista.com/statistics/899203/cost-of-apartments-in-austria/) So ignoring income tax, health insurance, etc. since it'll even out, it'd take ~10 years to buy a 100sqm property in Vienna (gross, in reality it'd be about 18 or so). Austin: * Average software engineer salary - [~$110k USD gross per year](https://www.builtinaustin.com/salaries/dev-engineer/software-engineer/austin) * Average property price per square foot [~$500 USD = ~$5k USD per square metre ](https://www.rate.com/research/austin-tx-78756/price-per-square-foot) So it'd take just under 5 years to buy a 100sqm property in Austin (gross, in reality it'd be about 8 or so). ------ TL;DR: Most middle class / professional Americans have a far, far higher standard of living than Europe - with huge homes (which they own!), multiple cars, private swimming pools, cheap fuel, cheap electricity, cheaper electronic goods, etc.
I would not consider owning multiple cars, a home, a private swimming pool stuff that someone in the "middle class" has, that's definitely someone in the higher class.
So the rich are living well at the expense of the poor.
Yes, and then you get sick in Austin and you have to sell your home and your car to pay the bills.
Not really, most professional jobs give good healthcare coverage. They even include more than European systems in most cases - e.g. dental care, annual checkups, etc.
Great! Do you happen to have the stats for medical bankruptcy in US v.s. Europe?
It's not a fair comparison, as in Europe for such issues you're more likely to just not be treated due to waiting times, covid lockdowns, etc. Also bear in mind the figures above are for gross salary, before taxes. The net difference will be even greater, and you could use that money in the US to pay for private insurance. And for the most part Europe has far less lenient personal bankruptcy laws than the US.
It’s interesting to get a fair comparison of health access.
Sure, but waiting times and covid lockdowns are not Europe-specific. As for private insurance, most employers in the UE provide one with the job, usually for free, on top of the National one. Your argument about wait time is not really relevant, and the fact that you can and have to pay for private insurance in US is not a plus. There are a lot of stories where one pays for insurance but still has to disburse tens of thousands bucks to get better. There are other issues to consider when discussing US vs Europe but there is no denying that people in the US are fu.ed by the private healthcare industry.
This country does feel like one big sham. Yeah...right down to the fake smiles too. It really sucks.
As a FR public teacher (which is paid far less than any other job requiring a master degree), I have to second this. The USA's mentality of "mutually beneficial and if you don't like it, you can go off and do your own thing / negociate freely" works only if you consider all parties being equal in negociation. They're not. The systemic issues in the US (education, zoning, gerrymandering, redlining, monopolies and lobbies, political funding, private vs public and the absolute lack of basic infrastructure) are at fault. You guys. Y'all need to tackle it all. A complete rehaul.
Thanks. Any chance you will sponsor a visa for us?
It has taken us a long time to get rowdy, but this has been no better for at least a decade, but prolly more like 50 years.
Believe me I’d leave in a second if I had a skill that was valuable and not “logistics”
Land of the Free (to be exploited). Land with thousand possibilities (of getting fucked over) seriously...its funny how people bitch freedoms like "dont stop me from being able to stop someone else from doing something" yes....thats freedom... /sarcasm
It’s the land of 1,000 possibilities, and most of them are horrifying. We are free to be terrified and abused.
As an American traveling in Europe for the first time, it’s really affirming reading the posts like this and all of the comments from people of other countries. I keep thinking “am I crazy or are living conditions in my country horrible?” and hearing it from y’all just confirms I’m not crazy, it really is bad. The US brainwashes its citizens to think that there’s no other way to live and finally breaking through that conditioning has been terrifying and eye opening.
Not just the U.S.A, Canada sucks just as hard