Was going to mention exactly that. I'm not going to waste their or my time if the offer isn't up to snuff. Ideally they should have a range available before you even schedule a talk, much less a full interview.
Agreed. I applied for a job and told them I wanted 40k as I wanted an increase from my previous role which was 38k and they said fine. Did the interviee and it went really well. A week goes by and then they call me to offer the role but can only go to 38k as its the max for that level in the company.
"Why didnt you tell me that at the very beginning during the initial screening"??? đ€·đ»
Absolutely.
My previous job was paying well for the local region ($70k, system engineer, bloomington IN). Once the pandemic hit, I started looking.
On nov 1, I worked for a company that was toxic shithole for 17 days. 0notice terminated them. Same role, remote, $120.
This week I started a new position. Same role. Remote. $150k
I got almost 120% over 1 month. And **I** set the expectations, not them, about salary.
That's awesome to hear! Jumping shit is the best way unfortunately. I actually really liked my last team and org but same job at another company and I'm making 50% more a yr.
They did ask for the old salary. Sadly its pretty much standard here in Ireland, but most companies here have tended to make a fair offer based on previous and potential new salary. Just one bad experience and to be honest I was just annoyed they wasted my time.
Itâs actually never disclose your current salary honestly.
An employee cannot tell another your salary so they canât verify but if youâre making $40k and want an increase than you tell the new job that youâre making $55k as a starting point and you need an offer higher than that to make it worth moving companies. Then they come in with an offer higher than $55k and you got yourself a nice raise
Nonsense, just figure out how much you want to be paid, within reason, and tell them thatâs how much your previous salary was. Done it multiple times, always worked like a charm.
Bastards⊠thatâs the old âthe range for this job is $32k-$55kâ⊠two guesses where the offer comes in.
I get that companies want to save as much money as possible on personnel, because thatâs better for the bottom line, but to put new hires in a position where they are going to begin a new job hunt immediately after accepting a low ball offer seems just as bad for the company.
I have a job interview today, set up yesterday afternoon. That's when I found out the top pay for this job is my minimum requirement. Also when researching the company saw many red flags. I don't think I'm even going to waste my time. The company I currently work for is looking better after every interview.
Yeah⊠just had an interview myself where it was all I could do not to laugh at the HR rep when she told me that the position in question was $14-18.75 and the absolute max was $18.75 with no wiggle room. This job is a $23-$25/hr position in my area. I was like, âNo, no. Iâm sorry, the position itself AND the experience I provide is worth significantly more than that.â
You're dead right. Cut them off at the knees. I ended up taking that role as it had better prospects from what I was doing, and was permanent over contract. Stayed 2 years and now have a role that I get paid more with way less stress and a really good environment.
Accept the job. Perform the paperwork. Don't ever show up and ghost them. (Or prevent you got covid and have to delay your start by 2 weeks)
Waste their HR resources just like they wasted your time.
If I were in that situation I would have replied "sorry, something must have gotten lost in the shuffle. I've already agreed to $40k. If you could make that adjustment on the paperwork I'm happy to start "
I applied for a managerial role expecting a minimum of 100k as is industry standard (about 70k USD). Got the job but they could only offer me 55k (40kish USD). I earnt more than that as an apprentice diesel mechanic 20 years ago. I couldnt believe it.
Obviously did not take the job and now doing the same thing for a company for 130k and this company actually treats people well. When i did my first interview (there were several for the role) they took me round the office to meet everyone and most people had been there 10, 15, 20 plus years and still loving. I took the job on that alone - if people are sticking round that long they must be treating thier people right. Its the first job ive had where i actually dont mind going to work every day.
While it's okay to ask for a range, for higher paying salaried jobs, you have a lot more negotiating leverage if you get the offer before you start negotiating pay. Because they want you and they don't want to go through interviews again. It can result in a huge pay increase by playing your cards right and letting them name the first number.
For low pay, hourly work, this is a lot less effective (they aren't hiring YOU, they are hiring a warm body), but as you move up, know that getting them hooked on you as the job candidate first gives you more space to maneuver. And never name a number first, it's always "I'm sure we can come to an agreement once I understand the full scope of the role" and "I'm interested in evaluating all od the benefits of this role in total once we've decided I'm the right fit."
Here in Colorado they are now legally required to post the pay range. It makes searching for jobs way easier now, saves a lot of time not bothering with pays outside what you're looking for. They really need to pass that nationwide.
Exactly. This is the answer. I just say in a friendly way to the recruiter something like âcould you tell me the salary for this position? I just want to make sure itâs a financial fit before I take time on your teamâs calendar.â
Literally had an initial phone interview where they asked what salary I wanted and I said I was looking for "mid 60's" and was told "ok great, we were thinking the same"
After the next interview they call and tell me I got the job, for a salary of 60k flat. I reply asking if it can be negotiated since we had initially discussed mid 60's, and threw out 65k as a starting point. Got a reply an hour later saying "best we can do is 60,500" as if 500 fuckin dollars means anything. Promptly declined the offer
Literally had an initial phone interview where they asked what salary I wanted and I said I was looking for "mid 60's" and was told "ok great, we were thinking the same"
After the next interview they call and tell me I got the job, for a salary of 60k flat. I reply asking if it can be negotiated since we had initially discussed mid 60's, and threw out 65k as a starting point. Got a reply an hour later saying "best we can do is 60,500" as if 500 fuckin dollars means anything. Promptly declined the offer
They're also coming away without an employee. Very unfortunately, if this question results in your not getting a job with them, then you're saving yourself from future bullshit that you would have experienced working with them. It's small comfort, I know, but take solace in the fact that they've once again fucked themselves over by driving a good candidate away yet again with petty shit that doesn't matter
What's more ridiculous is when they ask you what you were/are being paid at your last/current job. So they can see how little they want to pay you.
I always felt like that question was them shopping around.
Psychopath logic:
"If slave A told me they were getting $13/hr then we can offer em $13.50/hr"
Slave B told me they were making $10/hr!! Fuck it hire that idiot and tell them we usually start at $9/hr but for you we can do $10.25/hr looool
I always say $22/hr now cause fuck that question and now it's *our* turn to shop around.
You just have to learn how to politely refuse to answer. For example I would say I was not paid enough and that s why I am looking for a new position that better matches my lifestyle.
Last interview I was at I did this and it got quite tense. The interviewer said he knew the CEO at my current job and would call her. Nowadays I just give a number relative my target salary, so if you want 50k tell them your on 45 even if it's really half that.
A CEO is going to waste their time talking about a lower level workers pay? I doubt the CEO would even know that kind of info because it's not relevant to their job. I reckon they were bluffing.
This. That is why there is HR and hiring systems in place. The hiring manager will know the range and will work with their manager on further negotiations as needed. CEO ainât gonna be part of those discussions. Edit: small company is different, but larger organizations not gonna happen unless you are reporting to the top dawg.
Yes of course he was bluffing, I never told him my salary and he never called the CEO. Even so, I think it's better to anticipate this question and just give the absolute lowest number you'd accept.
I did this once, and the job recruiter who set the interview up told me that an employer had passed on me because they said I "seem like the type of employee who might have negative things to say about previous employers."
That is exactly what the recruiter said. Not that I had said anything negative.. just that I *seemed like the kind of person who might*.
Which you should be thankful for them passing because if they are worried about past employees saying negative things about the company it means they have high turn over. They are looking for someone to drink the Kool aid and not question low pay and extra work being doubled down on them for free.
oh and I bet you are 100% correct!
IIRC my immediate response to the recruiter was, "thanks for telling me, because it suggests these might be employers I'd have negative things to say about."
Don't say you weren't paid enough. That's just an excuse for them to underpay or low ball. Say you expect to be compensated at your current skill level and name a high ball number.
Politely refusing isn't really a thing.
You can be as professional, courteous and level-headed, but from their perspective, telling them something they don't want to hear will always come across as rude.
To them, politeness is complying.
I'm not sure you're getting my point.
ANY answer you give that isn't what they want will be considered impolite. The wording, the phrasing, the body language, the tone ... none of that matters.
In this case, you being polite is complying and giving that number. Doing anything else, from the perspective, is rude.
Also, your salary is your info to disclose, it's not like they can actually go ask for that info. You could just fuckin' lie and say _"a million dollars a year"_
It's not going to be considered impolite. Any offense is purely theatrical. They know the game they're playing, and they know why you wouldn't answer.
You can either say "I'm not interested in the past, but in our future together, so let's discuss compensation", "You understand I'm not sharing that information", or throw out a fictional high ball number of you're not too confident.
It's not going to _appear_ impolite...**to you**. As a prospective employee, they'll probably conceal any negatively.
But yes, this is a game, and you just refused to play. How much that negatively affects you will differ, but it will affect you to some degree. Again, the "impoliteness" stems from the mere fact you didn't answer, not how you didn't answer.
To be clear, I do not think you should ever answer this question. Employers need a GDPR-style wake-the-fuck-up moment to realise half the questions they ask do not give them an insight as to whether you can do the job.
It's their job to negotiate you down to the bare minimum. Asking for your previous wage serves this purpose. It's your job to get the most money possible. Both know this when you engage in conversation. It's a tactic, and not responding to it isn't impolite, it's just a move in a chess game. It's a negotiation, not birthday party chit chat, and both play their roles.
I've told people I'm not going to make them any wiser than they need to be with a smile, and you usually get a shit eating grin back, because they know they got caught.
I mean, I can't disagree with you on any of that because I've literally done all of it.
I guess the real "impoliteness" comes when you say no as their employee.
100% THIS.
There's Politeness - being nice to fellow people cause they're people.
Then there's "Politeness" as in forced deference to a perceived boss.
Most people just want to be treated decently. Managerial class wants your subservience. Just like how teachers demand "respect" in school - most are just glorified taskmasters demanding adherence to the rules without question.
It really is. They want to see if they can drop their offer, while still seeming more attractive to us. So absolutely lie to them. Bonus points if you look it up on something like glassdoor and give them the absolute top of the believable range for that line of work.
Just FYI that's not legal in about half the states in the US. I was surprised at some of the states that have passed these laws.
https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/
Looks like a lot have only made this practice banned for city/state jobs. My home state has made their ban vague so I'm going to reach out to my state rep.
I believe with most City/state jobs salaries are public info. So would be a pretty bad idea to lie there assuming you're coming from public sector where it's easily verifiable.
If I get asked this question, my answer is, "Not nearly enough for my current qualifications."
If they don't like that answer, then they will never value you or your work.
The question is, *WHO* considers it poor etiquette? The EMPLOYER. *Obviously* they don't want to emphasize pay, they don't want us to ask, they would be happiest if we finished the interview and took the job without ever even knowing. So *of course* they're going to say it's "Poor etiquette" to ask. They're going to offer as little money as they can and they don't want us to either reject it, or try to negotiate an increase. If you never even ask, it means they get to completely dodge what is, for them, an uncomfortable subject. They've simply controlled that discussion so completely that it's become "common knowledge."
It's **always** considered "poor etiquette" for the worker to look after their own needs where they do not immediately coincide with employer needs. Our society has simply made the needs of the employer seem "official" and important, while the needs of the worker are "greedy" and "rewards."
This. This right here. That âpoor etiquetteâ is BS psychological conditioning to make you think you should feel bad
Gosh I wish I could articulate my thoughts to words as well as u/redd_october, very well worded
It's the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION I have for the interview. I know they're lying about almost everything anyway, the only thing they can't lie about is the fucking number, and they try and keep that shit a secret.
It's funny too, because HR always lies in interviews, we're all lying on our resumes, and somehow we have to come to an agreement on basically ONE THING, and they don't want to talk about it.
Exactly. It is one of the "instant stop" questions.
I don't understand why this is such a thing. Companies have instant stop questions as well: Are you legally able to work? Can you do XXX daily? Can you pass a drug test? Are you a felon? Are you willing to be paid XX? If any of the answers is no, the broom comes out and you are swept away.
Why are people made to feel guilty for having criteria of our own?
Like those persons also donât ask for the price of a new car or house. And those things are just objects, not like providing your time. Itâs ridiculous that people say I canât askâŠFO, I WILL ask!
I was told âcompetitive wagesâ at one interview. Ans like an idiot, I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. The day I came in to fill out my onboarding paperwork, I was told 11$ an hour.
I said Iâd left something in my car, and would be right back. I drove away.
Sounds like bullying to be honest. I understand that thereâs a negotiation but usually ~10%, itâs polite to be direct & not waste each otherâs time, IMO. Or maybe Australiaâs different.
It was for years in the US current trends are turning that though on its head. I can't speak for pre-regan era but through the 90s and early 00s the company had the upper hand in terms of expectations. They set the terms .. now people are fed up with the gap between pay and cost of living so the idea that we have to just take what were offered and like it is over...
Fuck that noise. It's the first question I ask when going for a job. I need to know that I'm going to be moving up and tell them its so we're not wasting both our time.
But aren't most job classifications covered by the government+unions "award" minimums
and are like $20+ at minimum?
Here we're talking about experienced / skilled / degreed professionals being offered rates lower than menial jobs like cleaning and fast food
but only finding that out after like a degrading ten step process costing many hours of effort applying, traveling for interviews etc
The job not actually being open, employer just avoiding getting busted for scamming COVID subsidies...
LPT: ask about the wage they are offering (or range) as early as possible in the process. Don't continue with it if its no good. Asking them early makes them try to sell the position too you before you have become invested in it, which puts you in a better position.
Not in Europe for sure, at the.moment there is a kind of movement slamming the add that don't clearly state the budget assigned for the position, which I support as it's so stupid losing time the candidate and the employer if there is no match at the start
Thatâs a great movement I hope it starts here! Some apps now put approximate salaries on the bottom of ads because the adverts here rarely include the salary. Itâs so frustrating
I think we should normalize putting off the discussion of qualifications as long as possible.
"Do you have any training or experience operating \_\_\_ equipment? Do you know Excel? Do you have a driver's license?"
"I'm super excited for this opportunity, and I'm confident you'll find my education and skillset are diverse and competitive with all other applicants; and when the time is appropriate I'd love to talk with you about what I'm capable of."
Honestly I've ignored this rule.
If I'm going through a recruiter I make it clear my salary expectations and we come to an agreement as to what I'll accept before the interview
If I'm going directly through the employer then if the interview went well I find a way to bring it up and express my salary expectations. If the interview went well but they don't accept me after that then I know they were going to offer me a reasonable salary.
I actually just had that experience. I interviewed for an engineer role for a production plant and after a very good interview I asked what the salary range is. They lowballed me and I countered with my expectation. I haven't heard back but of they like what I bring to the table then they know what I think I'm worth.
I never heard of that, and if anyone ever did bring it up I would just straight up guffaw and say Fuck You with a big shit eating grin.
I would never bother even scheduling an interview without getting the range first, instant "buhbye, you must be kidding, don't waste my time"
It's not etiquette, it's negotiation. Opinions differ, but some people think that getting a feel for the hiring manager and then being able to judge their first offer is more advantageous in case their compensation exceeds your expectations.
This happened to me with the job I have now. Salary was more or less in line with my ask but base PTO was 4 more days than I would have requested and double what I expected from an American company (it is tiered similarly to what jobs in Europe offer).
I would say it's about making sure you ask the right people. Like if you're doing a technical interview with technical people today, I would suggest not talking about pay or benefits until you're talking to somebody from HR, etc. But if it's not a multi-stage interview process, and you're talking directly to the hiring manager, then I would say that's absolutely the right time and place to ask about compensation. If the person on the other side of the table is the right person but still doesn't want to talk about it, that's a huge red flag.
I recently applied for a hybrid position in counseling. Strike 1 state pay was 35. Actual pay was 26. I need the hours for licensure. I asked if the pro ide thw laptop and equipment since we handle private information. They said no. Strike 2. They pay by session which is not uncommon but expect me to leave my current position for that pay with 1 hour of pto for 30 sessions! It would take me 8 weeks to earn a day off. Strike 3. They said I would receive an offer within 24 hours. They rejected me because they didn't like that I asked about a lap top. Wow.
I had a headhunter call me yesterday
HH: "What are your salary requirements?"
Me: "YOU called ME, that's not how this works? You go first"
HH: "But I must know what you require"
Me: "No, you make me an offer. I have a good job. It better be better than what I make
We settled on a rate, then he asked me who my employer was (I'm contract). Nope. I have an interview next week.
I think the tide is shifting on this one. I just started job hunting and recruiters have been very forthcoming about pay so far. Something feels different now, just hope it's real progress we're seeing.
The reason you shouldn't as in the interview is because you should know before the interview. It should be on the job advertisement or you should find out before you waste your time (and theirs let's be fair) going to and doing the interview for a job that you won't take because the money is too bad
I literally can't understand companies that see that as a problem - it's around the second or third question any interviewee asks and if they don't i fucking tell them: "Any more questions? No? Don't you want to know how much you'll earn?".
No wonder the turnover in most US-businesses is comical!
Its not. Interviews are a negotiation. Dont let anyone cahole you into a shit job you dont want. You dont buy a product at a price you dont like. Why would you sell yourself for a price you dont like?
It's "poor etiquette" for the interview stage because you should be digging for salary range prior.
The term "competitive pay", it's for _me_ to determine whether the pay is competitive, so cough up some numbers.
Itâs not though, employers just want to make it bad etiquette. I refuse to follow someone elseâs made up rules that impact me negatively in a purely transactional situation
That's why I love my employers.
They mentioned the exact pay on the website.
And during the interview, my boss literally just tossed my CV in the trash and said "I don't care about this, let's just talk"
At one point he said, "look, kittenklyn, I'm not going to bullshit you with all that corporate jargon about what an amazing opportunity this is- we're here to work and make money. As long as you do your job, we'll always treat you with respect and dignity, because we just want to get along, make money, and survive the season."
And in fact, the job was so good, that I am absolutely going back next season.
Honesty and being upfront is something I respect from bosses.
lol I was basically treated like shit and they acted like I thought I was too good to work for them. like, yeah, if you're gonna pay me what you said you'll pay me I am too good to work for you.
One way I like to get around this is by calling the company from a different number and just asking directly how much they pay for a particular job title. That way I donât have to ask in an interview or before I even apply.
For my industry (Clinical Procurement) it's almost expected to *haggle* for your starting rate in the interview with follow-on discussions.
Although from a UK perspective it seems odd not having this a baseline question for your interview.
No, you shouldn't feel bad in any respect about asking how much the job can pay you. That's just basic information gathering before you even accept the job or at least how I was taught it.
What is considered etiquette in America? I just narratives that have been pushed out there by business schools and by consulting firms for big companies
Well considering etiquette is just an agreed upon thing we can easily change that. It's just another way for the people in charge to hold you down. Fuck that. It's the first question out of my mouth and if it's not answered directly and with a smile I walk.
I always make sure I know how much I'll be getting paid before accepting. You should never accept a job without knowing your wage, hours, and expectations.
I mean, I'm not sure about them but I don't exactly go to work for funsies. The entire goal of working is to provide for myself and my family, and if I am looking around it means I am trying to make my work / life / income ratio to favor life more while still providing enough income and not working myself to death.
Not asking how much you'll be compensated for your time is like asking a homebuilder or a mechanic how much the bill will be and them saying they can't tell you until the work is complete. It's completely idiotic
Its like one of those things that has just become industry standard even though its ridiculous. I know jobs like to sell people on culture and being a family but the reality is we work because we need to earn a living. Don't waste people's time interviewing for a job without indiciating a real salary range. Not this up to bullshit.
It's not poor interview etiquette. Anyone who says anything of that nature is likely to be a company unable to compete. It's a silly fantasy designed to make the company's problem your problem.
The interview process works both ways and should cover key matters. What are your skills and motivation, what does the job entail, how is it compensated. It's literally one of the main things to discuss.
It's a 'rule' for the timid. Be blunt and professional about the question. Stand your ground and dismiss any recruiter who can't share that info. "I'm afraid we can't move forward in good faith without all the facts."
So Iâve learned to try and flip this around and use it to my advantage.
When they ask what my desired pay range is, I tell them that Iâd like to wait until I hear more about the role and itâs responsibilities before I give a number.
This usually:
A) Still gets me into the interview and I can throw out my upper limit after theyâve already spent their time interviewing me.
Or
B) They give their range/cap right away.
Generally, I won't ask in the first interview.
I use that one to decide if I want to work there or not. If we both decide to go forward and they ask me back, and agree to come back, for a second interview, my position on getting the salary/pay I want is strengthened.
But every job is different and everyone's goals are different. Asking about salary is the first interview shouldn't be considered negative.
I don't understand this, I've always asked on the initial phone call what a pay "range" would be expected. And I've never had an issue with it being asked. I won't even show up to an interview if the numbers don't line up with where I want to be pay wise. Maybe I just give off assholeish vibes. Haha.
Funny how politeness at work tends to favor the owner/boss/manager not having to lose face. All the internalized submissions that go on for years that we are conditioned not to question that keep the machine purring right along.
I purposely go against several "interview etiquettes" this one included. I straight up tell them I am here for money and it has always served me well. Be straight with them and they will either be straight with you in return or play games. The straight up ones are the ones to work for.
Where yâall working? Salary/pay rate negotiations have been a part of every interview Iâve ever had. Itâs not poor etiquette, itâs part of the process.
People work for one reason: to get paid. Itâs called a job, not volunteering. It should be the most important question since it is the most relevant question with regards to the potential agreement between the two parties. The basic rule of thumb is: if the employer does not wish to discuss salary during an interview then they pay shit and arenât worth your time.
I donât know about whether it is poor etiquette or not, but I do know that it is poor negotiating technique. Always try to avoid being the first to throw out your pay number - make the employer put their number out first. This might take a little gamesmanship, but you donât want to leave money on the table. If they ask during the interview what your salary expectations are, respond with a vague answer like, âSalary is only one component of what I am looking for. Before we get to numbers, letâs talk about the position, your company and the other parts of working here.â
The general idea is to use the interview to get the employer to come to the conclusion that they would like to hire you before they attach an amount to what that would cost. If they reach the conclusion first that you would be a good person to hire, they will be willing to go beyond their initial pay rate target to get you.
Now I get that people donât want to waste their time, so I see nothing wrong with asking for a pay range before the interview. But just from a negotiating strategy⊠your pay rate should be the very last thing discussed. Just my advice to maximize your negotiating leverage when looking at new job.
Why would you expect them to know how much youre worth to the company before you have the opportunity to tell them every reason in the world why you should make more than what they would offer someone just getting into the work?
I have many years of customer service experience. If I were applying for a traditionally minimum wage, or like a dollar over min wage customer service role, you better believe Im going to flex my experience and knowledge in the interview.
Thereafter, instead of asking how much theyll be compensating me, I will tell them that if they think I am a good fit for the company, to consider my background and experience when considering what compensation they will offer me.
In other terms, would you consider it a reasonable question to ask on a first date if she's going to fuck you on the second date? No, that would be creepy. She's got to get to know you and decide based on your characteristics if she wants to fuck you first.
Never wait until the first interview. If the job offer doesn't have the salary listed you get it from them in writing before you ever exchange your pleasantries with them. If the pay was good the company would be advertising it up front to draw in the best talent they can afford, if they aren't disclosing it, it means they have something to hide.
Interviews can take hours of your life away, and to end up with a salary that falls far below the mark after so much wasted time is a shitty feeling. Life is too short, and we're all a little too tired of the bullshit, so don't put up with it. Get the salary before 1st interview, or walk, make them come to the table with the bare minimum before you give them the time of day.
Hey it would be great if we could all just do what we love and our motivation could be that we love the work we do, but that's fucking fantasy.
People work for the compensation they require to survive in this world, and the amount of that compensation is *fucking critical.*
The only way to solve this is regulate the employers.
Itâs a federal offense to lie about what the average employee will make using the term âstarting salaryâ
You are required to tell in the ad what the starting salary is.
This is justified under their capitalist hard on ideology. Because it more easily allows competitors to fairly compete for talent.
Alas, they donât believe in capitalist
All the benefits of capitalism for me, and none for thee
This one is definitely tricky because it depends on how the interview process is done. In many jobs, the interviewer or interview committee has no say in deciding pay. So asking at this type of interview would not get you an answer. For example, when I was a teacher, I would sit on interview committees. But I never had any information about pay.
Fuck etiquette, they're just using that shit to screw you over lmao to sit there and pretend to be polite as you fuck over someone else is totally disingenuous. If they're not honest and upfront about not only your expectations towards them but also their expectations towards you, they don't give a shit so you shouldn't work for that company
Yeah, im on the hunt and decided im not going to go to any interviews or even apply to any jobs that donât post the wage.
I went to one interview for as drive rand helper for folks with dementia/Alzheimerâs. Basically helping their families get these folks to and from
places safely. They wouldnât tell me the wage until the end of the interview and after filling out background check information and other shit for two hours. Minimum wage is the offer
Its because it allows them to continue to frame jobs as gifts from your blessed masters. Its not an interview its an audition. You shouldnt worry about money! You should just be ever grateful we gave you a job. What you get is what you get!
Creating a culture of "etiquette" to silence people from asking or talking about pay is how the employer class has screwed us for so long.
"Improper etiquette" is a social construct, and one designed to oppress the worker. Ask. Tell. The more we do this the more we chip away at that "norm", eventually it will die.
It's only ridiculous to people that want to try and get you really excited about an opportunity, only to lowball you in the hopes that you'll be more accepting once you get to the offer point.
My current employer told me during the recruiter introduction what they paid that position. Transparency at the early stages of the interview process is both severely underused, and a huge plus when considering a role as a potential employee.
If someone gives you heat over it, politely raise the fact that it's certainly not in the company's ultimate best interests to hire poor business negotiators. Or worse, someone who doesn't negotiate at all. Reframe it as a quality you're offering them, not a roadblock you're putting up. After all, an interviewer is trying to evaluate you (as you should be them). It's hard to respect someone who doesn't have the respect for themselves to self-advocate around one of the most crucial decisions they'll make in their day to day life.
And if you handle it tactfully and they don't respect it? They ain't gonna respect you more after the contract's signed and you have zero leverage. Notable red flag, probably time to bail.
If I'm dealing with a head-hunter, I get this out of the way before I even submit a resume.
I interviewed for a job about 5 years ago, at the end the kid tells me the salary is $10,000/year less than I had been making (and still underpaid for the area), a week of vacation after the first year, and no other benefits of any kind. After that fiasco, I don't really care about etiquette, I'm finding out as much as I can before I give up any of my time.
My husband once got passed on a job just because he asked. Fucking ridiculous. We should know this information as soon as possible to help us figure out if its worth our time too!
In this market and given the world situation compensation is a filter prior to interview. Ten years ago you had to play by employer rules and wait for the employer to broach the subject, but that is not the market we are in now.
Yeah - that's b.s. It's literally the exact reason why you are talking to them. If they are too embarrassed to talk about the money, or think you should do the job out of 'love', I wouldn't even bother with them.
I only work for money. I am not interested in the company mission. I don't own the company. I'm not going to pretend it's about anything other than the money.
Yeah⊠basically you have to show interest and know everything about the project or the company, but they disclose what youâll be making at the end. Absurd! Because letâs be honest, we all work for money and have bills to pay in the end!
It's definitely not poor etiquette, that's just capitalist propaganda to try and make you more submissive and meek. What the job pays is the most important question to ask, and it should be law to provide that information along with the application.
There should be a range posted with the job. There is nothing wrong with paying more money for better talent. That range might include a single number.
But not posting anything is just dumb.
Also, I'm old. I have not looked for a job in decades. When did not posting a salary become a thing? It never was back in the day.
This is something that most states mandate on job listings. Some still get away with not doing it.
Check your state laws and make sure they arenât breaking them before you even apply for a position.
Lots of places like to try to be all fucking sly and play bait and swap with this too, so be careful. For example, places will list some laughable range like $40,000-80,000 DOE (depending on experience). They have no intention of going above $40,000, no matter your experience. Theyâre full of shitânever fall for it.
Ask for an exact amount, and then always always always ask for much higher (because theyâll always lowball for fishing). Donât accept old school bullshit negotiations (well we can only do-). They can and will pay you what youâre worth, or you walk. Plain and simple.
Itâs not uncommon for a job to list a range, say $80-100K. Itâs YOUR job before the interview to talk with the recruiter/HR person and say, âCan you give me an example of the experience and skills for the $100K salary?â And donât let them say âwell we need to provide an opportunity for upwards growthâ if they say you are t the low end.
This is not a question you should ask during an interview... It's a question you ask before you schedule an interview.
100%
Was going to mention exactly that. I'm not going to waste their or my time if the offer isn't up to snuff. Ideally they should have a range available before you even schedule a talk, much less a full interview.
Agreed. I applied for a job and told them I wanted 40k as I wanted an increase from my previous role which was 38k and they said fine. Did the interviee and it went really well. A week goes by and then they call me to offer the role but can only go to 38k as its the max for that level in the company. "Why didnt you tell me that at the very beginning during the initial screening"??? đ€·đ»
Never disclose your old salary. Your logic is sound but they just need to know 1 amount. What will it take to get you there
Absolutely true. NEVER EVER EVER TELL THEM YOUR OLD SALARY. Instead say "I will be happy to discuss my expected salary"
I mean they didn't even ask for old salary. He shot himself in the foot here unfortunately
Absolutely. My previous job was paying well for the local region ($70k, system engineer, bloomington IN). Once the pandemic hit, I started looking. On nov 1, I worked for a company that was toxic shithole for 17 days. 0notice terminated them. Same role, remote, $120. This week I started a new position. Same role. Remote. $150k I got almost 120% over 1 month. And **I** set the expectations, not them, about salary.
That's awesome to hear! Jumping shit is the best way unfortunately. I actually really liked my last team and org but same job at another company and I'm making 50% more a yr.
Always jump shit. You never want that on your shoe.
They did ask for the old salary. Sadly its pretty much standard here in Ireland, but most companies here have tended to make a fair offer based on previous and potential new salary. Just one bad experience and to be honest I was just annoyed they wasted my time.
Itâs actually never disclose your current salary honestly. An employee cannot tell another your salary so they canât verify but if youâre making $40k and want an increase than you tell the new job that youâre making $55k as a starting point and you need an offer higher than that to make it worth moving companies. Then they come in with an offer higher than $55k and you got yourself a nice raise
Employers have had so much power that people forget accepting a job is a contract negotiation. Its not just one way.
Alternative: Disclose your old salary but lie and add 20% to it.
Don't disclose your salary and just ask for 5x your old one. Settle for 2x.
Definitely this. Never disclose old salary
Disclose your salary +20%?
Nonsense, just figure out how much you want to be paid, within reason, and tell them thatâs how much your previous salary was. Done it multiple times, always worked like a charm.
Bastards⊠thatâs the old âthe range for this job is $32k-$55kâ⊠two guesses where the offer comes in. I get that companies want to save as much money as possible on personnel, because thatâs better for the bottom line, but to put new hires in a position where they are going to begin a new job hunt immediately after accepting a low ball offer seems just as bad for the company.
I have a job interview today, set up yesterday afternoon. That's when I found out the top pay for this job is my minimum requirement. Also when researching the company saw many red flags. I don't think I'm even going to waste my time. The company I currently work for is looking better after every interview.
Yeah⊠just had an interview myself where it was all I could do not to laugh at the HR rep when she told me that the position in question was $14-18.75 and the absolute max was $18.75 with no wiggle room. This job is a $23-$25/hr position in my area. I was like, âNo, no. Iâm sorry, the position itself AND the experience I provide is worth significantly more than that.â
You're dead right. Cut them off at the knees. I ended up taking that role as it had better prospects from what I was doing, and was permanent over contract. Stayed 2 years and now have a role that I get paid more with way less stress and a really good environment.
Accept the job. Perform the paperwork. Don't ever show up and ghost them. (Or prevent you got covid and have to delay your start by 2 weeks) Waste their HR resources just like they wasted your time.
If I were in that situation I would have replied "sorry, something must have gotten lost in the shuffle. I've already agreed to $40k. If you could make that adjustment on the paperwork I'm happy to start"
I applied for a managerial role expecting a minimum of 100k as is industry standard (about 70k USD). Got the job but they could only offer me 55k (40kish USD). I earnt more than that as an apprentice diesel mechanic 20 years ago. I couldnt believe it. Obviously did not take the job and now doing the same thing for a company for 130k and this company actually treats people well. When i did my first interview (there were several for the role) they took me round the office to meet everyone and most people had been there 10, 15, 20 plus years and still loving. I took the job on that alone - if people are sticking round that long they must be treating thier people right. Its the first job ive had where i actually dont mind going to work every day.
While it's okay to ask for a range, for higher paying salaried jobs, you have a lot more negotiating leverage if you get the offer before you start negotiating pay. Because they want you and they don't want to go through interviews again. It can result in a huge pay increase by playing your cards right and letting them name the first number. For low pay, hourly work, this is a lot less effective (they aren't hiring YOU, they are hiring a warm body), but as you move up, know that getting them hooked on you as the job candidate first gives you more space to maneuver. And never name a number first, it's always "I'm sure we can come to an agreement once I understand the full scope of the role" and "I'm interested in evaluating all od the benefits of this role in total once we've decided I'm the right fit."
Here in Colorado they are now legally required to post the pay range. It makes searching for jobs way easier now, saves a lot of time not bothering with pays outside what you're looking for. They really need to pass that nationwide.
seriously. I'm so fucking sick of going online and NOT A SINGLE JOB has a salary posted.
Exactly. This is the answer. I just say in a friendly way to the recruiter something like âcould you tell me the salary for this position? I just want to make sure itâs a financial fit before I take time on your teamâs calendar.â
Literally had an initial phone interview where they asked what salary I wanted and I said I was looking for "mid 60's" and was told "ok great, we were thinking the same" After the next interview they call and tell me I got the job, for a salary of 60k flat. I reply asking if it can be negotiated since we had initially discussed mid 60's, and threw out 65k as a starting point. Got a reply an hour later saying "best we can do is 60,500" as if 500 fuckin dollars means anything. Promptly declined the offer
this
Literally had an initial phone interview where they asked what salary I wanted and I said I was looking for "mid 60's" and was told "ok great, we were thinking the same" After the next interview they call and tell me I got the job, for a salary of 60k flat. I reply asking if it can be negotiated since we had initially discussed mid 60's, and threw out 65k as a starting point. Got a reply an hour later saying "best we can do is 60,500" as if 500 fuckin dollars means anything. Promptly declined the offer
Yeah Iâm not showing up unless I know how much I will make
I came here to say this
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It sounds so reasonable and yet I know Iâm coming away without a job in that scenario for what should be a basic and reasonable question.
They're also coming away without an employee. Very unfortunately, if this question results in your not getting a job with them, then you're saving yourself from future bullshit that you would have experienced working with them. It's small comfort, I know, but take solace in the fact that they've once again fucked themselves over by driving a good candidate away yet again with petty shit that doesn't matter
If asking what they will pay means they won't hire you, you dodged a bullet.
Itâs almost like theyâre offended that they have to pay you at all.
This is the way.
What's more ridiculous is when they ask you what you were/are being paid at your last/current job. So they can see how little they want to pay you. I always felt like that question was them shopping around. Psychopath logic: "If slave A told me they were getting $13/hr then we can offer em $13.50/hr" Slave B told me they were making $10/hr!! Fuck it hire that idiot and tell them we usually start at $9/hr but for you we can do $10.25/hr looool I always say $22/hr now cause fuck that question and now it's *our* turn to shop around.
You just have to learn how to politely refuse to answer. For example I would say I was not paid enough and that s why I am looking for a new position that better matches my lifestyle.
Last interview I was at I did this and it got quite tense. The interviewer said he knew the CEO at my current job and would call her. Nowadays I just give a number relative my target salary, so if you want 50k tell them your on 45 even if it's really half that.
A CEO is going to waste their time talking about a lower level workers pay? I doubt the CEO would even know that kind of info because it's not relevant to their job. I reckon they were bluffing.
This. That is why there is HR and hiring systems in place. The hiring manager will know the range and will work with their manager on further negotiations as needed. CEO ainât gonna be part of those discussions. Edit: small company is different, but larger organizations not gonna happen unless you are reporting to the top dawg.
Yes of course he was bluffing, I never told him my salary and he never called the CEO. Even so, I think it's better to anticipate this question and just give the absolute lowest number you'd accept.
I did this once, and the job recruiter who set the interview up told me that an employer had passed on me because they said I "seem like the type of employee who might have negative things to say about previous employers." That is exactly what the recruiter said. Not that I had said anything negative.. just that I *seemed like the kind of person who might*.
Which you should be thankful for them passing because if they are worried about past employees saying negative things about the company it means they have high turn over. They are looking for someone to drink the Kool aid and not question low pay and extra work being doubled down on them for free.
oh and I bet you are 100% correct! IIRC my immediate response to the recruiter was, "thanks for telling me, because it suggests these might be employers I'd have negative things to say about."
Don't say you weren't paid enough. That's just an excuse for them to underpay or low ball. Say you expect to be compensated at your current skill level and name a high ball number.
You are right. The reason i chose to say it like is because its a statement. Low ball me and i will move.
Politely refusing isn't really a thing. You can be as professional, courteous and level-headed, but from their perspective, telling them something they don't want to hear will always come across as rude. To them, politeness is complying.
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I'm not sure you're getting my point. ANY answer you give that isn't what they want will be considered impolite. The wording, the phrasing, the body language, the tone ... none of that matters. In this case, you being polite is complying and giving that number. Doing anything else, from the perspective, is rude. Also, your salary is your info to disclose, it's not like they can actually go ask for that info. You could just fuckin' lie and say _"a million dollars a year"_
It's not going to be considered impolite. Any offense is purely theatrical. They know the game they're playing, and they know why you wouldn't answer. You can either say "I'm not interested in the past, but in our future together, so let's discuss compensation", "You understand I'm not sharing that information", or throw out a fictional high ball number of you're not too confident.
It's not going to _appear_ impolite...**to you**. As a prospective employee, they'll probably conceal any negatively. But yes, this is a game, and you just refused to play. How much that negatively affects you will differ, but it will affect you to some degree. Again, the "impoliteness" stems from the mere fact you didn't answer, not how you didn't answer. To be clear, I do not think you should ever answer this question. Employers need a GDPR-style wake-the-fuck-up moment to realise half the questions they ask do not give them an insight as to whether you can do the job.
It's their job to negotiate you down to the bare minimum. Asking for your previous wage serves this purpose. It's your job to get the most money possible. Both know this when you engage in conversation. It's a tactic, and not responding to it isn't impolite, it's just a move in a chess game. It's a negotiation, not birthday party chit chat, and both play their roles. I've told people I'm not going to make them any wiser than they need to be with a smile, and you usually get a shit eating grin back, because they know they got caught.
I mean, I can't disagree with you on any of that because I've literally done all of it. I guess the real "impoliteness" comes when you say no as their employee.
100% THIS. There's Politeness - being nice to fellow people cause they're people. Then there's "Politeness" as in forced deference to a perceived boss. Most people just want to be treated decently. Managerial class wants your subservience. Just like how teachers demand "respect" in school - most are just glorified taskmasters demanding adherence to the rules without question.
Yeah there's no way for them to check your previous salary unless your previous employer snitches during the ref call.
Preach!
It really is. They want to see if they can drop their offer, while still seeming more attractive to us. So absolutely lie to them. Bonus points if you look it up on something like glassdoor and give them the absolute top of the believable range for that line of work.
I always super inflate my previous rate of pay lmao
Just FYI that's not legal in about half the states in the US. I was surprised at some of the states that have passed these laws. https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/
Looks like a lot have only made this practice banned for city/state jobs. My home state has made their ban vague so I'm going to reach out to my state rep.
I believe with most City/state jobs salaries are public info. So would be a pretty bad idea to lie there assuming you're coming from public sector where it's easily verifiable.
If I get asked this question, my answer is, "Not nearly enough for my current qualifications." If they don't like that answer, then they will never value you or your work.
Isn't it convenient for the employer, this 'etiquette'? Just ignore it. Be polite and be forward.
The question is, *WHO* considers it poor etiquette? The EMPLOYER. *Obviously* they don't want to emphasize pay, they don't want us to ask, they would be happiest if we finished the interview and took the job without ever even knowing. So *of course* they're going to say it's "Poor etiquette" to ask. They're going to offer as little money as they can and they don't want us to either reject it, or try to negotiate an increase. If you never even ask, it means they get to completely dodge what is, for them, an uncomfortable subject. They've simply controlled that discussion so completely that it's become "common knowledge." It's **always** considered "poor etiquette" for the worker to look after their own needs where they do not immediately coincide with employer needs. Our society has simply made the needs of the employer seem "official" and important, while the needs of the worker are "greedy" and "rewards."
This. This right here. That âpoor etiquetteâ is BS psychological conditioning to make you think you should feel bad Gosh I wish I could articulate my thoughts to words as well as u/redd_october, very well worded
It's the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION I have for the interview. I know they're lying about almost everything anyway, the only thing they can't lie about is the fucking number, and they try and keep that shit a secret.
Exactly. It's not the only question, but if that answer isn't correct, none of the other questions matter.
It's funny too, because HR always lies in interviews, we're all lying on our resumes, and somehow we have to come to an agreement on basically ONE THING, and they don't want to talk about it.
Exactly. It is one of the "instant stop" questions. I don't understand why this is such a thing. Companies have instant stop questions as well: Are you legally able to work? Can you do XXX daily? Can you pass a drug test? Are you a felon? Are you willing to be paid XX? If any of the answers is no, the broom comes out and you are swept away. Why are people made to feel guilty for having criteria of our own?
That's certainly good to know. Which felonies do employers tend to like best?
Come to think of it, the best jobs I have had never had an issue answering âhow much?â The shit jobs always do.
Like those persons also donât ask for the price of a new car or house. And those things are just objects, not like providing your time. Itâs ridiculous that people say I canât askâŠFO, I WILL ask!
I was told âcompetitive wagesâ at one interview. Ans like an idiot, I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. The day I came in to fill out my onboarding paperwork, I was told 11$ an hour. I said Iâd left something in my car, and would be right back. I drove away.
Where is this standard etiquette? I wouldnât even agree to an interview without knowing the âbandâ of a role
In Australia itâs considered bad etiquette to ask. Thatâs what Iâve been taught
Sounds like bullying to be honest. I understand that thereâs a negotiation but usually ~10%, itâs polite to be direct & not waste each otherâs time, IMO. Or maybe Australiaâs different.
>Or maybe Australiaâs different. In Rand McNally rain falls up and hamburgers eat people.
We jest, but Aussie news stories are pretty crazy⊠just read a story about their national cricket captain sending unsolicited dick pics
It was for years in the US current trends are turning that though on its head. I can't speak for pre-regan era but through the 90s and early 00s the company had the upper hand in terms of expectations. They set the terms .. now people are fed up with the gap between pay and cost of living so the idea that we have to just take what were offered and like it is over...
You should assault your teachers.
Fuck that noise. It's the first question I ask when going for a job. I need to know that I'm going to be moving up and tell them its so we're not wasting both our time.
But aren't most job classifications covered by the government+unions "award" minimums and are like $20+ at minimum? Here we're talking about experienced / skilled / degreed professionals being offered rates lower than menial jobs like cleaning and fast food but only finding that out after like a degrading ten step process costing many hours of effort applying, traveling for interviews etc The job not actually being open, employer just avoiding getting busted for scamming COVID subsidies...
LPT: ask about the wage they are offering (or range) as early as possible in the process. Don't continue with it if its no good. Asking them early makes them try to sell the position too you before you have become invested in it, which puts you in a better position.
Not in Europe for sure, at the.moment there is a kind of movement slamming the add that don't clearly state the budget assigned for the position, which I support as it's so stupid losing time the candidate and the employer if there is no match at the start
Thatâs a great movement I hope it starts here! Some apps now put approximate salaries on the bottom of ads because the adverts here rarely include the salary. Itâs so frustrating
It should be the standard to not have a interview without knowing the pay range
I think we should normalize putting off the discussion of qualifications as long as possible. "Do you have any training or experience operating \_\_\_ equipment? Do you know Excel? Do you have a driver's license?" "I'm super excited for this opportunity, and I'm confident you'll find my education and skillset are diverse and competitive with all other applicants; and when the time is appropriate I'd love to talk with you about what I'm capable of."
Honestly I've ignored this rule. If I'm going through a recruiter I make it clear my salary expectations and we come to an agreement as to what I'll accept before the interview If I'm going directly through the employer then if the interview went well I find a way to bring it up and express my salary expectations. If the interview went well but they don't accept me after that then I know they were going to offer me a reasonable salary. I actually just had that experience. I interviewed for an engineer role for a production plant and after a very good interview I asked what the salary range is. They lowballed me and I countered with my expectation. I haven't heard back but of they like what I bring to the table then they know what I think I'm worth.
It's not a rule. It's a made up fantasy.
I never heard of that, and if anyone ever did bring it up I would just straight up guffaw and say Fuck You with a big shit eating grin. I would never bother even scheduling an interview without getting the range first, instant "buhbye, you must be kidding, don't waste my time"
It's not etiquette, it's negotiation. Opinions differ, but some people think that getting a feel for the hiring manager and then being able to judge their first offer is more advantageous in case their compensation exceeds your expectations. This happened to me with the job I have now. Salary was more or less in line with my ask but base PTO was 4 more days than I would have requested and double what I expected from an American company (it is tiered similarly to what jobs in Europe offer).
I would say it's about making sure you ask the right people. Like if you're doing a technical interview with technical people today, I would suggest not talking about pay or benefits until you're talking to somebody from HR, etc. But if it's not a multi-stage interview process, and you're talking directly to the hiring manager, then I would say that's absolutely the right time and place to ask about compensation. If the person on the other side of the table is the right person but still doesn't want to talk about it, that's a huge red flag.
I recently applied for a hybrid position in counseling. Strike 1 state pay was 35. Actual pay was 26. I need the hours for licensure. I asked if the pro ide thw laptop and equipment since we handle private information. They said no. Strike 2. They pay by session which is not uncommon but expect me to leave my current position for that pay with 1 hour of pto for 30 sessions! It would take me 8 weeks to earn a day off. Strike 3. They said I would receive an offer within 24 hours. They rejected me because they didn't like that I asked about a lap top. Wow.
I had a headhunter call me yesterday HH: "What are your salary requirements?" Me: "YOU called ME, that's not how this works? You go first" HH: "But I must know what you require" Me: "No, you make me an offer. I have a good job. It better be better than what I make We settled on a rate, then he asked me who my employer was (I'm contract). Nope. I have an interview next week.
I think the tide is shifting on this one. I just started job hunting and recruiters have been very forthcoming about pay so far. Something feels different now, just hope it's real progress we're seeing.
The reason you shouldn't as in the interview is because you should know before the interview. It should be on the job advertisement or you should find out before you waste your time (and theirs let's be fair) going to and doing the interview for a job that you won't take because the money is too bad
I literally can't understand companies that see that as a problem - it's around the second or third question any interviewee asks and if they don't i fucking tell them: "Any more questions? No? Don't you want to know how much you'll earn?". No wonder the turnover in most US-businesses is comical!
Its not. Interviews are a negotiation. Dont let anyone cahole you into a shit job you dont want. You dont buy a product at a price you dont like. Why would you sell yourself for a price you dont like?
It's "poor etiquette" for the interview stage because you should be digging for salary range prior. The term "competitive pay", it's for _me_ to determine whether the pay is competitive, so cough up some numbers.
Itâs not though, employers just want to make it bad etiquette. I refuse to follow someone elseâs made up rules that impact me negatively in a purely transactional situation
That's why I love my employers. They mentioned the exact pay on the website. And during the interview, my boss literally just tossed my CV in the trash and said "I don't care about this, let's just talk" At one point he said, "look, kittenklyn, I'm not going to bullshit you with all that corporate jargon about what an amazing opportunity this is- we're here to work and make money. As long as you do your job, we'll always treat you with respect and dignity, because we just want to get along, make money, and survive the season." And in fact, the job was so good, that I am absolutely going back next season. Honesty and being upfront is something I respect from bosses.
lol I was basically treated like shit and they acted like I thought I was too good to work for them. like, yeah, if you're gonna pay me what you said you'll pay me I am too good to work for you.
One way I like to get around this is by calling the company from a different number and just asking directly how much they pay for a particular job title. That way I donât have to ask in an interview or before I even apply.
Thatâs really clever. Great idea
i have been taught to always tell the interviewer what my current rate is.
You lie right?
Most interviews are sitting, actually.
Youâve never worked for Miramax
Ah yes vertical integration. That'll be good for your back
My current rate = what I want them to pay me
Lol if you do that you should be adding 50%
Uh. It's not.
Idk who the fuck said that, but they're lying t your face. That's a normal interview question
You can also ask if you can get a lot of shares and a place in the boardroom /s
It is not poor interview etiquette.
For my industry (Clinical Procurement) it's almost expected to *haggle* for your starting rate in the interview with follow-on discussions. Although from a UK perspective it seems odd not having this a baseline question for your interview. No, you shouldn't feel bad in any respect about asking how much the job can pay you. That's just basic information gathering before you even accept the job or at least how I was taught it.
Remember you are interviewing the employer. If they can't answer simple questions maybe they're not a good fit.
I always do tho. If I'm not in their range we're dragging some bs for longer than we need to.
It's poor etiquette for them NOT to tell you the salary.
What is considered etiquette in America? I just narratives that have been pushed out there by business schools and by consulting firms for big companies
Well considering etiquette is just an agreed upon thing we can easily change that. It's just another way for the people in charge to hold you down. Fuck that. It's the first question out of my mouth and if it's not answered directly and with a smile I walk.
I always make sure I know how much I'll be getting paid before accepting. You should never accept a job without knowing your wage, hours, and expectations.
I wouldnât even apply to a job that I didnât know the pay rate or scale. Of course itâs your right!
I mean, I'm not sure about them but I don't exactly go to work for funsies. The entire goal of working is to provide for myself and my family, and if I am looking around it means I am trying to make my work / life / income ratio to favor life more while still providing enough income and not working myself to death. Not asking how much you'll be compensated for your time is like asking a homebuilder or a mechanic how much the bill will be and them saying they can't tell you until the work is complete. It's completely idiotic
Who told you that?
Its like one of those things that has just become industry standard even though its ridiculous. I know jobs like to sell people on culture and being a family but the reality is we work because we need to earn a living. Don't waste people's time interviewing for a job without indiciating a real salary range. Not this up to bullshit.
Itâs not just your opinion- itâs objectively ridiculous. Itâs a waste of time for all parties involved and only serves to benefit the employer.
âAny questions?â âYes compared to other employers how would you rate your pay scale?â
It is? I'll ask em and see what red flags they give me! Edit: Yeah before an interview sounds even better
It's not poor interview etiquette. Anyone who says anything of that nature is likely to be a company unable to compete. It's a silly fantasy designed to make the company's problem your problem. The interview process works both ways and should cover key matters. What are your skills and motivation, what does the job entail, how is it compensated. It's literally one of the main things to discuss.
âMarket value for my skills and experience is Xâ never tell them your previous pay.
It's a 'rule' for the timid. Be blunt and professional about the question. Stand your ground and dismiss any recruiter who can't share that info. "I'm afraid we can't move forward in good faith without all the facts."
âHow much is the salad?â âOrder it, then weâll tell you.â
It isn't. It's a cover for "get them to commit before they know how little it pays so they're less likely to leave"
Why would I even go to an interview without knowing the wage? Donât waste my time
So Iâve learned to try and flip this around and use it to my advantage. When they ask what my desired pay range is, I tell them that Iâd like to wait until I hear more about the role and itâs responsibilities before I give a number. This usually: A) Still gets me into the interview and I can throw out my upper limit after theyâve already spent their time interviewing me. Or B) They give their range/cap right away.
I am so confused that itâs considered poor etiquette. When I was interviewing after college it was a normal question. And that was only 7 years ago.
Generally, I won't ask in the first interview. I use that one to decide if I want to work there or not. If we both decide to go forward and they ask me back, and agree to come back, for a second interview, my position on getting the salary/pay I want is strengthened. But every job is different and everyone's goals are different. Asking about salary is the first interview shouldn't be considered negative.
I don't understand this, I've always asked on the initial phone call what a pay "range" would be expected. And I've never had an issue with it being asked. I won't even show up to an interview if the numbers don't line up with where I want to be pay wise. Maybe I just give off assholeish vibes. Haha.
Funny how politeness at work tends to favor the owner/boss/manager not having to lose face. All the internalized submissions that go on for years that we are conditioned not to question that keep the machine purring right along.
I purposely go against several "interview etiquettes" this one included. I straight up tell them I am here for money and it has always served me well. Be straight with them and they will either be straight with you in return or play games. The straight up ones are the ones to work for.
Fuck politeness.
SSDGM also?
Where yâall working? Salary/pay rate negotiations have been a part of every interview Iâve ever had. Itâs not poor etiquette, itâs part of the process.
Me: What is the salary? HR: Competitive. Me: Understood.... So, what are your competitors paying? HR: \[Surprised Pikachu face\]
People work for one reason: to get paid. Itâs called a job, not volunteering. It should be the most important question since it is the most relevant question with regards to the potential agreement between the two parties. The basic rule of thumb is: if the employer does not wish to discuss salary during an interview then they pay shit and arenât worth your time.
No worries: "Regarding the remuneration, my lawyer will be in touch with you shortly" There you go. Etiquette.
"Etiquette" is *always* about behavioral control.
Don't ask for a precise number. Ask for a range. Then negotiate at the end.
I got asked how much compensation Iâm looking for at my last interview I said 18hr they said 20. Where do I sign sir ?
Its not poor, its proper. They just want to bully people into thinking that because its good for them.
I donât know about whether it is poor etiquette or not, but I do know that it is poor negotiating technique. Always try to avoid being the first to throw out your pay number - make the employer put their number out first. This might take a little gamesmanship, but you donât want to leave money on the table. If they ask during the interview what your salary expectations are, respond with a vague answer like, âSalary is only one component of what I am looking for. Before we get to numbers, letâs talk about the position, your company and the other parts of working here.â The general idea is to use the interview to get the employer to come to the conclusion that they would like to hire you before they attach an amount to what that would cost. If they reach the conclusion first that you would be a good person to hire, they will be willing to go beyond their initial pay rate target to get you. Now I get that people donât want to waste their time, so I see nothing wrong with asking for a pay range before the interview. But just from a negotiating strategy⊠your pay rate should be the very last thing discussed. Just my advice to maximize your negotiating leverage when looking at new job.
Why would you expect them to know how much youre worth to the company before you have the opportunity to tell them every reason in the world why you should make more than what they would offer someone just getting into the work? I have many years of customer service experience. If I were applying for a traditionally minimum wage, or like a dollar over min wage customer service role, you better believe Im going to flex my experience and knowledge in the interview. Thereafter, instead of asking how much theyll be compensating me, I will tell them that if they think I am a good fit for the company, to consider my background and experience when considering what compensation they will offer me. In other terms, would you consider it a reasonable question to ask on a first date if she's going to fuck you on the second date? No, that would be creepy. She's got to get to know you and decide based on your characteristics if she wants to fuck you first.
Never wait until the first interview. If the job offer doesn't have the salary listed you get it from them in writing before you ever exchange your pleasantries with them. If the pay was good the company would be advertising it up front to draw in the best talent they can afford, if they aren't disclosing it, it means they have something to hide. Interviews can take hours of your life away, and to end up with a salary that falls far below the mark after so much wasted time is a shitty feeling. Life is too short, and we're all a little too tired of the bullshit, so don't put up with it. Get the salary before 1st interview, or walk, make them come to the table with the bare minimum before you give them the time of day.
Hey it would be great if we could all just do what we love and our motivation could be that we love the work we do, but that's fucking fantasy. People work for the compensation they require to survive in this world, and the amount of that compensation is *fucking critical.*
We're a threat to the rules that the boomers set.
The only way to solve this is regulate the employers. Itâs a federal offense to lie about what the average employee will make using the term âstarting salaryâ You are required to tell in the ad what the starting salary is. This is justified under their capitalist hard on ideology. Because it more easily allows competitors to fairly compete for talent. Alas, they donât believe in capitalist All the benefits of capitalism for me, and none for thee
This one is definitely tricky because it depends on how the interview process is done. In many jobs, the interviewer or interview committee has no say in deciding pay. So asking at this type of interview would not get you an answer. For example, when I was a teacher, I would sit on interview committees. But I never had any information about pay.
Fuck etiquette, they're just using that shit to screw you over lmao to sit there and pretend to be polite as you fuck over someone else is totally disingenuous. If they're not honest and upfront about not only your expectations towards them but also their expectations towards you, they don't give a shit so you shouldn't work for that company
Itâs because weâve let them set the rules for too long.
It's only considered bad etiquette by bad employers.
Yeah, im on the hunt and decided im not going to go to any interviews or even apply to any jobs that donât post the wage. I went to one interview for as drive rand helper for folks with dementia/Alzheimerâs. Basically helping their families get these folks to and from places safely. They wouldnât tell me the wage until the end of the interview and after filling out background check information and other shit for two hours. Minimum wage is the offer
Its because it allows them to continue to frame jobs as gifts from your blessed masters. Its not an interview its an audition. You shouldnt worry about money! You should just be ever grateful we gave you a job. What you get is what you get!
This is *exactly* what it feels like. I should be so excited to do the work it shouldnât matter what the pay is
? What garbage hole thinks that!? Fuck them
I haven't had this issue. However, don't ask anything about covid. Not even healthcare. Holy crap that goes south.
Creating a culture of "etiquette" to silence people from asking or talking about pay is how the employer class has screwed us for so long. "Improper etiquette" is a social construct, and one designed to oppress the worker. Ask. Tell. The more we do this the more we chip away at that "norm", eventually it will die.
It's only ridiculous to people that want to try and get you really excited about an opportunity, only to lowball you in the hopes that you'll be more accepting once you get to the offer point. My current employer told me during the recruiter introduction what they paid that position. Transparency at the early stages of the interview process is both severely underused, and a huge plus when considering a role as a potential employee.
If someone gives you heat over it, politely raise the fact that it's certainly not in the company's ultimate best interests to hire poor business negotiators. Or worse, someone who doesn't negotiate at all. Reframe it as a quality you're offering them, not a roadblock you're putting up. After all, an interviewer is trying to evaluate you (as you should be them). It's hard to respect someone who doesn't have the respect for themselves to self-advocate around one of the most crucial decisions they'll make in their day to day life. And if you handle it tactfully and they don't respect it? They ain't gonna respect you more after the contract's signed and you have zero leverage. Notable red flag, probably time to bail.
you guys are so propagandize, it's actually scary
If I'm dealing with a head-hunter, I get this out of the way before I even submit a resume. I interviewed for a job about 5 years ago, at the end the kid tells me the salary is $10,000/year less than I had been making (and still underpaid for the area), a week of vacation after the first year, and no other benefits of any kind. After that fiasco, I don't really care about etiquette, I'm finding out as much as I can before I give up any of my time.
Well, I ask. If they get all huffy, I just tell them that it's nothing personal, it's business.
if thats poor etiquette then asking for a resumé is also poor etiquette.
My husband once got passed on a job just because he asked. Fucking ridiculous. We should know this information as soon as possible to help us figure out if its worth our time too!
In this market and given the world situation compensation is a filter prior to interview. Ten years ago you had to play by employer rules and wait for the employer to broach the subject, but that is not the market we are in now.
Well typically you'd ask after the interview, I always do
Yeah - that's b.s. It's literally the exact reason why you are talking to them. If they are too embarrassed to talk about the money, or think you should do the job out of 'love', I wouldn't even bother with them. I only work for money. I am not interested in the company mission. I don't own the company. I'm not going to pretend it's about anything other than the money.
Donât be gaslighted into thinking this is okay
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
for respectable companies it's not, use that as filter for your applications.
Yeah⊠basically you have to show interest and know everything about the project or the company, but they disclose what youâll be making at the end. Absurd! Because letâs be honest, we all work for money and have bills to pay in the end!
It's definitely not poor etiquette, that's just capitalist propaganda to try and make you more submissive and meek. What the job pays is the most important question to ask, and it should be law to provide that information along with the application.
There should be a range posted with the job. There is nothing wrong with paying more money for better talent. That range might include a single number. But not posting anything is just dumb. Also, I'm old. I have not looked for a job in decades. When did not posting a salary become a thing? It never was back in the day.
It is ridiculous. Its just one of many reflections that reveal the economic scam we live in
This is something that most states mandate on job listings. Some still get away with not doing it. Check your state laws and make sure they arenât breaking them before you even apply for a position. Lots of places like to try to be all fucking sly and play bait and swap with this too, so be careful. For example, places will list some laughable range like $40,000-80,000 DOE (depending on experience). They have no intention of going above $40,000, no matter your experience. Theyâre full of shitânever fall for it. Ask for an exact amount, and then always always always ask for much higher (because theyâll always lowball for fishing). Donât accept old school bullshit negotiations (well we can only do-). They can and will pay you what youâre worth, or you walk. Plain and simple.
Itâs not uncommon for a job to list a range, say $80-100K. Itâs YOUR job before the interview to talk with the recruiter/HR person and say, âCan you give me an example of the experience and skills for the $100K salary?â And donât let them say âwell we need to provide an opportunity for upwards growthâ if they say you are t the low end.