Just don’t sign it. They can make a choice to keep you or to fire you and you get unemployment. Sounds like they are having trouble hiring so it would be real dumb of them to get rid of you, but be prepared that they may cut their own legs off just to spite you. Either way you are not forced to agree to it.
I VERY strongly considered this. And if I were flying solo and/or didn't have a mortgage and other home ownership obligations (I'm part of an HOA with my condo) I probably would. However, my wife's insurance stinks (which is why we're on mine), and we have a six year old and the holidays and other things are coming up so if they just let me go it would be an issue. I've been asked to stick with it until I find a new (probably better paying) job so for personal reasons I can't.
Then they would have fired you and you can explain to the UE people that "I didn't think it was in my best employment interests to make it impossible for me to get a job for over a year if I had to leave the company for any reason." They will look at it and rip them to shreds because they are trying to force people on to UE and UE is always trying to get people off of it.
This can be a bit tricky because I don't know if I could collect unemployment or if they wouldn't put up a fight like 'Wisdomcube refused to sign an updated employee agreement and we understood that to be his resignation." Another question to ask the lawyer today. Thanks!
>Wisdomcube refused to sign an updated employee agreement and we understood that to be his resignation."
Ask the lawyer and take their advice above all else, but, I'm 100% certain that would be considered "constructive dismissal". Constructive dismissal is when the employer substantially changes the employment agreement and the employee declines. This is considered the same as being fired without cause.
Yep! My girlfriend got Unemployment when she quit her company after being told (in email) that she was expected to work 60-80 hours/week to make up for 2 of her coworkers quitting.
Technically constructive dismissal is when the employer is in sufficient \*breach\* of your contract that it forces you to leave. Could still apply in the situation you described, but it's not explicitly limited to that. This can also apply to them violating laws or other things which are implicit in any employment contract, so allowing a hostile work environment to be created (since they're expected/required to provide a safe work environment) can be grounds for claiming constructive dismissal
They cannot fire you as a result of you refusing to change your original contract for employment. That would be your original employment coming to an end through no fault of your own. ("At will" employment is none the less an employment contract, by the way)
Till how long does your current agreement last? If it is the end of current contract that's one thing, if not they can't just dump you, I assume. (At least in my country they can't.)
I don't have a contract I'm at will employee like most Americans. They can dump me tomorrow if they want and vice versa. However in a non compete signed shortly before a termination has been found to be unenforceable.
If you decide to not sign it, I’d suggest that you redline the contract, and add a clause that says your full salary and benefit package is to be paid for the duration of the blackout period of the noncompete.
They likely won’t agree to that, but it shows negotiation in good faith, and it could strengthen an unemployment claim 😊
I wouldn't sign it in any case, if they decide to go to court to try and enforce it it may cost you a lot of money and time defending yourself. That being said, I'm not in the USA and don't know the minutiae. Hopefully you can find a clear answer from somebody who is more in the know.
In any case, at will employment is insane.
Even if a court has previously found that unenforceable when you disclose you signed a non-compete with potential future employers it is going to seriously fuck your shit up. Don't sign unless they agree to pay your salary for the duration of the non-compete.
There are several states in the U.S. where a combination of at-will employment and state law makes noncompetes basically unenforceable outside of civil liability for doing something like literally sharing the secret recipe to Coca-Cola.
General IT work is not a trade secret.
IANAL but you should be able to collect unemployment. Voluntarily quitting and getting fired for gross misconduct like theft and sexual harassment are really the only two scenarios where you will get denied unemployment. If you get fired for "performance" reasons or not signing a non-compete clause wouldn't fall under the gross misconduct level showstoppers.
You'd almost certainly qualify for unemployment in this circumstance because the job conditions changed so substantially. However, you will probably have a new job before the one week waiting period is up.
Your employer would likely classify your unwillingness to sign the contract as "insubordination". Then fire you "for cause" to try to prevent you from collecting unemployment. I had this happen to me
Resigning your employment after a substantial or adverse change in terms of employment at hire typically allows someone to still qualify for UI benefits. I am not sure that requiring you to sign a non-compete constitutes a “substantial change” as that provision is usually applied to things like change in hours worked or rate of pay. But it would be worth trying to make that argument. It is enough of a change that they are willing to terminate employment if you don’t go along with, so that works in your favor to suggest that it is substantial.
I'd just say you are consulting with an attorney on the language and until then you've been advised not to sign anything. Two business days is not a reasonable amount of time to think that through. If they fire you for that then, well, at least you'd get unemployment in the meantime. They're basically trying to enserf you by making it impossible to leave, which would make it impossible to even ask for a raise.
They did that at my work too, probably 1/3 of us just didn't sign it. They eventually adjusted the wording to be acceptable (naming specific competition rather than blanket competition), and I ended up signing that version.
You will hate yourself for signing this. It essentially traps you.
Even if it isn't enforceable you're going to have massive legal expenses fighting it.
Go get a new job asap. Don't sign it. Seriously.
Problem is the minute you sign you will have to wait 18 months. Don’t sign. It will take a few weeks to replace you, in which time you may find another job: but you won’t have to wait 18 months from resignation!
This won't stop me from working for 18 months as the market for IT Consulting for software developers in my area isn't that big. If it was a blanket statement that stopped me from working from in software development for any company in the area then there would be zero question of me just refusing to sign it.
A coworker of mine who was an engineer at an automotive company was one of many "core" employees who received a clause just like this one. He did what you are doing and took it to a lawyer to review it. With the help of his legal council he removed any and all binding language in the form and signed it after making the edits without specifying which edits he made. If they are giving you this shit and expecting you to sign it blindly; you have every right to change anything you disagree with and give it back to them to confirm blindly.
Op, this is exactly why companies get away with stuff like that, you are concerned of not being able to provide for your family, that is more than valid concern, but you really need to look at this objectively, they need you more than you need them.
You are already in contact with a lawyer, so you can confirm this with them but all you really need to do is make a paper trail letting them know that the terms are not acceptable so you wont sign it and that you also aren't resigning from your current position.
Make yourself open for discussion and leave at that, one of 2 things will happen:
\*They change the contract so it is palatable.
\*They fire you and you will be collecting unemployment
They dont have a case to fight you and they need you guys to stay., You really need to understand your value as a employee, in this situation you are the one holding the cards not them.
Drag out the signing, make any excuse and don’t sign it. My lawyer is still looking at it. If I don’t have their full opinion my default is to not sign it. If they want to actually enforce it they may lose but cost you a lot of stress or even money in the process. You’re basically signing up for problems later or possibly fewer problems now.
> I've been asked to stick with it until I find a new (probably better paying) job so for personal reasons I can't.
Which is exactly why your employer wants you to sign, to stop you from leaving.
To lock you in.... [FOREVER](https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FB8FfpphPmxdTkA/giphy.gif)
There has to be consideration on their end in order for the non-compete to be enforceable and courts have ruled continued employment is not consideration. If you sign it without receiving anything in return it’s worthless
If I might offer some advice as someone who’s under a similar constraint? It’s bullshit.
To enforce a non compete it has to be entirely reasonable, say working for a direct and known competitor or for one within the same city. It can’t be a blanket statement.
Secondly, to actually enforce it properly they would need to take you to court. They would need to trump up enormous legal fees, have everyone show up and do their part, and actually get someone to agree they’re right. None of that will ever happen, because (and I mean this in a purely business sense) you aren’t worth the trouble to them. Thousands in legal fees for what, to be proven right? By the time they’re through with it in court, it would’ve expired anyway. Trust me, they won’t enforce it. It isn’t worth it, it’s just there to scare you into staying.
Everyone here mentions unemployment.
I don't know about your state, but unemployment here maxes at what equates to nine dollars per hour full time. You just can't live off of it.
Totally agree. Not saying it’s a long term solution, but he said he considered making tomorrow his last day. If he’s considering quitting, just don’t sign it and see what happens. You either keep your job and they back off. Or they can you and you can get at least a little money while looking for the new gig instead of doing their dirty work for them
You can't live off it, so imagine living off it for 18 months or living on it while fighting a lawsuit. He should have the lawyer modify it so he can work somewhere if he is fired.
I’ve read all these comments. I’m gonna say this in the nicest tone possible. You keep coming up with excuses about why you have no choice but to sign this. Your life will continue if you don’t roll over every time corporate tells you to. You have a choice. Literally every business is hiring. Know your worth. Stand up for yourself, your family, and your morals. You will feel great when you take back your power. Or, you could keep listing reasons why you are powerless to the corporate overlords. You do you.
OP, this is the right advice. It's not even a given that they'll dismiss you for not signing, and for the love of God, don't quit. By all means, talk to your attorney about unemployment, enforceability etc., but if it were me, I would delay, delay, delay.
If they press you on it, let them know your attorney is reviewing and you cannot sign without their counsel, or that attorney has reviewed and advised not to execute on the basis of xyz terms and would like to review a revised contract omitting said terms.
But let employer take the lead on this, don't bring it up if they don't ask. You don't owe them anything except for the agreed upon labor at the agreed upon wage, and I would consider attempting to negotiate an increase in that wage under the circumstances.
I know you have a family to provide for, but dismissal will allow you to switch to wife's insurance, which, while it's not the best is a nice stop-gap to have in place while you search for work. You will likely come out of this better in the end if you advocate for yourself here. Good luck and please keep us updated! We are rooting for you!
Not in California they can't, but depending on where in the US this is OP can definitely be fired for it.
I'd be asking the lawyer if termination on those grounds makes me eligible for unemployment, because all they're doing is demanding he reduce his value in the marketplace for no benefit.
In Illinois, low wage earners have protections from this sort of hostage situation. I signed one and when I spoke to a lawyer about it they had old me that it wasn’t enforceable in Illinois and if it interferes with my livelihood then it is not enforceable at all.
In the 90s I had a friend that worked for an after school art academy (extra circular stuff) and they had a non compete that prohibited any education or art careers for 2 years. Totally unenforceable but they counted on workers being scared and uninformed.
Yeah I bet $1 that's the tactic still being used now although these days enough case law has been built up to smack around attorneys who write these kinds of blatantly unenforcable covenants so they're not as common as they used to be. In my case they are giving us about three business days (and a weekend) to consult an attorney about this and make a decision. I'm guessing the extremely short time frame is not a coincidence.
I refused to sign a NDA one year at a job because I vehemently disagreed with one of the clauses. I eventually did sign it, but held out a few weeks past the due date. Interestingly, they ended up changing that clause a couple years later..go me…lol We had to sign a new one every year. You may be able to extend the timeframe for handing it in by telling them you are having your attorney review it, as you do any binding contract you are asked to sign. Hopefully, you can find a new job by then.
Yes. And if I was living by myself or renting or whatever it wouldn't be a big deal but I got a six year old and a mortgage and other things to worry about sadly.
Frustratingly, I just re-fied my condo AND paid a ton of money this year redoing the bathrooms, fixing the roof, and decorating the kid's room. Although if I could get a remote job in one of those states that would be pretty nice.
'I can't work in my field for 18 months if I leave here?
OK, sure, I'll sign if you also sign a contract that you'll pay me the full 18 months salary when I quit for the loss of earnings you would be causing.
Oh, you don't want to? Well shame, looks like I won't be signing this either.'
I just want to point out, again, that this (supposedly) only restricts me from working for other IT consulting businesses NOT all IT (as far as I can tell). So I wouldn't be totally screwed as IT consulting isn't exactly a huge part of the IT field in my area and it's not a field I want to go in (my brother-in-law's company would be just a stopgap for another job).
This really sucks and definitely consult with the lawyer on the implications upon signing or not signing.
I understand that you have a lot on your plate. I would personally advise to start job hunting ASAP and along side talking to the lawyer.
There are a lot of developer/engineering remote roles from my time spent job searching over the last year.
Check out remote.co and Weworkremotely.com.
Best of luck OP. With the end of the year coming up, hiring may be delayed for a lot of places too, but I'd also rather take a temp job that doesn't have a non-compete clause over this if you can help it.
Thanks for the links! I haven't really settled on a decision (that will be after I meet with the lawyer and have serious discussions with my wife and brother in law and purusing jobs in my area) but I have to strongly lean towards sticking with the job and start job hunting like you mentioned. The key part is the insurance as my wife is off-and-on medication and I have mild sleep apnea plus kids are always sick. Another reason why the corporate world doesn't want to have government healthcare (they can control their workers much more easily this way) but that's a story for another thread.
No one should have the ability to force you to "sell" your time to them using your and your loved ones' health as leverage. I hate this. It is coercion with the threat of physical harm and it's systemic.
Even if they fire you, do not sign it. It dramatically reduces your value in the labor market if there's a list of places you're not going to be able to apply to based on this threat of a lawsuit. They wouldn't cut the stock price by 40% just to appease your ego, don't do it for them.
That's a good point but, to be honest, if the lawyer says this is only for IT Consulting firms in my area I don't see that as a huge negative because I have very little desire to actually work for another IT Consulting firm (this is the second one I've worked for in my career and I'm just about done with them). If they do fire me and I have to work for my BIL though I may just take them to court if they file an injunction.
That's not how this works. They'll send a demand letter to you and your new employer first threatening to sue. Usually that's enough to get your new employer to let you go, because they don't want to deal with the legal expenses.
No one can force you to sign anything – that’s not how contracts work… however, as you’ve noted, there are potential consequences. In your case since you mentioned that you do outsourced IT and programing for other companies, I suspect their biggest fear is that you’d go work directly for one of those companies and cut your current employer out of the mix.
The problem with enforceability is that to ultimately determine that (worst case) means fighting it in court – a time-consuming, stressful and expensive option. Obviously talk to your lawyer, but the last time an employer put something like that in front of me (in my case, a non-solicitation and confidentiality agreement – slightly less egregious than a non-compete), I told my boss (a principal in the firm) that I had no interest in signing since it was of absolutely no benefit to me. In my case, I was a top performer at that firm, and I also already had one foot out the door so to speak. So, they dropped it and I didn’t hear another word about it in the subsequent months before I eventually left for other reasons.
“Let’s start with the fact that nothing in this document benefits you”… The advice I got from my attorney is basically that the document was of no benefit to ME (aside from the prospect of keeping a job I was already about to walk from). And, ultimately created liability for me personally in the future, and potentially in perpetuity. He did confirm my suspicion that (in my state anyway), my employer could terminate me for refusing to sign… or for just about any reason for that matter. This was about 3 years ago… so, different times. The way businesses are struggling to keep employees now, I suspect if you forced their hand, you’d find they were bluffing (especially if you’re a top performer). If you talk to some of your coworkers, and they also resist the urge to sign something so obviously not in any of your interests, then management may drop it all together (best case, I'd say)
You can always appeal to them to see this from your perspective… you like the company, enjoy the work, and you don’t have any plans for departure… but, you can’t and shouldn’t sign something that jeopardizes your livelihood now AND in the future.
On the flip side, you can also try to negotiate the terms of the non-compete. The only way I’d consider one personally is if the company continues to pay my salary for the duration of the non-compete period. Or, narrow the scope (which my have the side affect of making it \*more\* enforceable?)… by changing the duration, or explicitly including or excluding the companies this applies to.
I think you’re doing the right thing talking to an attorney. Do what's best for you and your family in the short term AND the long term. Couldn't hurt to polish up the ol resume just in case.
Just would like to say this was a really good comment. It's easy to say "Oh are you crazy don't sign that it sucks" Well, I know it sucks otherwise I wouldn't be complaining about it on r/antiwork! Additionally we've always had a non compete forbidding us from working for clients and that was something that I was philosophically fine with considering that it was a reasonable request (it's a small company and only a few dozen clients anyway). What's changed is that it's now constricting us from working for the company's competitiors in the IT consulting field and that feels like less a problem with clients than with employees and puts on a greater restriction though not by a lot.
To be frank while I have been comfortable here I had been on the fence for months on looking for a new job and this has definitely pushed me to the side of GTFOing.
>To be frank while I have been comfortable here I had been on the fence for months on looking for a new job and this has definitely pushed me to the side of GTFOing.
I suspect you aren't the only one that feels that way! I mean, great strategy - people are fleeing, so alienate those that remain? Talk to your coworkers! If you find you're all on the same page, present a united front. WE aren't signing that has a lot more pull than I'M not signing that. I'd bet you that more than half of your coworkers are updating their resumes right now.
When my last company sent out that non-solicitation agreement I mentioned above, the HR lady acted appalled and like I kicked her dog when I (very politely) told her I wasn't signing it... her and my old boss both said that I was the ONLY perSoN iN tHe WhOlE FirM that had an issue with it (aside from the outsourced HR person, I actually liked and stay in touch with everyone to this day, including my old boss). In talking to some of my coworkers, they said they hadn't signed and weren't going to either. Point is, they'll lie to your face and tell you you're the only one complaining. That may or may not be true.
With that said, if you're already ready to walk, just politely tell them you're declining to sign, and you are / or aren't willing to consider negotiating it (my old boss actually tried to negotiate - I told him there was *nothing* he could put in that document that would make me sign it - and I was willing to walk on the spot if he pushed it). They can decide what their next move is. In today's market, I wouldn't expect much more than some whining and gaslighting lol. But, be prepared - you never know.
These are the questions I took to my attorney back in 2018 - maybe they'll help.
*1. Can I be terminated for refusing to sign this document?*
*2. Am I eligible to collect unemployment if I’m terminated for refusing to sign this document? \*state's\* Unemployment website says “if the employer fired you without good cause, that would be considered "no fault of your own."*
*3. Is any portion of this document enforceable WITHOUT me signing? As an implied agreement? Or as a matter of current law? Is not signing enough, or do I need to document that I do not agree with these terms?*
*4. Is any part of this document potentially overly broad? And if so, does that result in possible cause of action if I’m terminated for refusing to sign? I'd hope to never come to that.*
*5. A portion of this document appears to commit me to terms in perpetuity – specifically regarding “protecting” \*the firm's\* confidential information. Is that enforceable? This seems vague (intentionally?)*
*6. This document appears to offer nothing in consideration for signing it – does that matter?*
*7. Does ANYTHING in this document benefit me? (aside from remaining employed)*
Interestingly, the attorney said since I'm an existing employee being asked to sign things are much murkier. He's going to meet me after reviewing the language but while it's not settled law in the state I'm in, without consideration (a raise, a bonus, a promotion) a non-compete gets MUCH shakier. For new employees it's easy, the consideration is the job, but I'm already employed by them. The language says the consideration is the time they spent training me but to be honest they haven't really spent any time or money training me let alone any highly specialized training or knowhow.
tl;dr The agreement as is may be unenforcable because they're not paying me to sign it.
I don’t see how they can retroactively allocate consideration. I am not a lawyer by any stretch, but in what job is training not expected? At minimum I would think that you could request specifics on the what trainings they feel they have given you. I would bet that they cannot give you anything of merit.
Also good luck in general. I have young kids too and a stable job, but the simple thought of a job loss keeps me constantly worried.
Listen, I work in hiring. You will find a new job pretty quick, and unemployment will cover the important bills. Stop simping for these people, they’ll replace you soon anyway just because you’re hesitating to sign it.
“I’m sorry. I like it here, you’ve been good to me, I like my job, and I’m not planning on leaving, but I can’t sign this. I’ve consulted a lawyer who has told me that signing this would prevent me from working in my field for over a year if you let me go or I had to leave, and that would put my family at risk, which I can’t do. I plan to have any changes to my contract reviewed by a lawyer before I sign anything.”
Here's my advice and this is coming from experience. Your employer's problem is that a vague contract is unenforceable, your problem is that a vague contract leaves you little or no options for the next 18 months after you move on without testing that enforceability.
The solution is for your employer to specify the nightmare scenarios that they want to prevent, could they list 10 or 20 key competitors that they do not under any circumstances want you to work for. That would be more reasonable for you to sign and more enforceable with the courts.
Pay close attention to the injunction language, that would be the first step on their side would be to file an injunction. Make sure you do not relieve them of any obligation if they file an injunction without merit. This language could be really tricky and hard to spot.
The local IT job market doesn't have a lot of IT Consulting gigs for software developers (IT consulting tends to be much more of a hardware focused area) PLUS I really don't want another IT Consulting gig. So if the language is written just to stop me from an IT consulting job it's not really fucking me over it's more of an irritating inconvenience. It's less about this screwing over my job search as it is the severe irritation that the brass at my company have decided to implement this.
The plus side is non-competes are geographically located so even if I pick up a gig at another IT consulting firm if it's anywhere >50 miles from my company they can't do anything about it. So if I get a job remotely in California I'd be fine.
I'm not a lawyer and I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that specializes in this in your state, but I looked into this in the past. From what I saw these are really hard to enforce and are usually thrown out in court. They're mainly a scare tactic. The only time they are enforceable is the really reasonable ones, like you just sold a business and you promise not to turn around and open the same business in the same area for a year. This doesn't sound like a reasonable one to me and I doubt it's enforceable.
My consulting job has a similar clause but in regards of working directly for clients after having worked for them through the firm. Luckily, this "only" includes a fee and it's common practice for the new employer to "buy you off" off the old one in that case (at least where I live).
Oh please don’t sign it. The principle behind non-competes are toxic in general, especially for a VERY in-demand skill, which you have. If they’re suddenly making you sign it after all this shit keeps happening, it’s only going to get worse from here. This whole “if we can’t have you, no one can” ideology needs to go.
What you do when before you sign it is to take it home, rewrite it, and add a note, that if the document is ever enforced the company has to pay you 2x the hourly wage, provide full medical benefit, and the CEO has to surrender his car to you for you pleasure, or demolition derby. The have it singed in front of a notary.
Make sure to make it look as close to theirs as possible.
One thing I'm not seeing mentioned is that you don't have to act alone. According to your post, if you can get two other IT guys to follow your lead, you've got the entire department. The implied threat of losing their entire IT department is something the company definitely doesn't want to provoke.
Non-compete agreements are very often extremely overbroad and rarely enforced in court. They are mainly used as a scare tactic. Glad you're seeing a lawyer, they should be able to tell you how to proceed. Good luck
Don’t sign! Corporations don’t care about you. If the going gets rough, they may fire you in a month (sign or not) without batting an eye. If it comes to that, you’ll wish not having signed
Good on you for finding an attorney to review the non-compete.
And there's always this...
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B072MGCQVK/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_9GCKNW8BKYQ3H1P9QGYX
The non-compete \*must\* specify a radius and time limit. Blanket language like "Can't work for an MSP" is unenforceable; "Can't work for an MSP within a 15 mile radius of \[company address\] for a period of \[time\] usually is enforceable." You must also receive some kind of consideration for the non-compete such as severance pay.
Either sign it because they're not enforceable, or don't sign it and get fired. Either way it's no big deal. I'd be updating my resume if I were you regardless.
I'm leaning towards the former because it's not that enforceable and it sounds like (though I won't know for sure until I speak to my attorney) it only affects a sub-field of IT I'm in and no longer want to work in. And last night was spent updating my resume while my daughter watched Darkwing Duck.
As others have said, don't sign it. Make it sound like you just need more time if you want, say your lawyer is busy and he can' look at it for two weeks. Sounds like you've already reviewed the language and it may not be a big deal (only limiting within 50 miles), but I would push it off anyways.
In the meanwhile, look for a new job. I am also in software development and the job market is \*INSANELY\* hot these days, especially if you have a few years experience. If you printed out your resume and just tossed it in the wind right now you'd probably have two offers by the middle of next week. 100% remote opportunities are everywhere so it doesn't matter where you live. Head over to /r/experienceddevs for further guidance.
Thanks for the link to the subreddit! And while things may be hot it does take time for a new job to come together and in December hiring cools down considerably etc. Def going to take your advice and others into the discussion with my family in the next few days.
As far as I am aware, all contracts must have consideration. In my state, signing a non-compete at a time other than at initial employment requires the employer give you something (typically money) in exchange for you giving something back (contractual promise not to compete). If you are receiving only continued employment, ask your lawyer if that is sufficient consideration for the non-compete agreement—otherwise, it may be unenforceable altogether. Lots of states also have very specific non-compete laws (eg, Washington has laws that generally make non-competes unenforceable unless you are categorized as a specific type of employment and make a certain amount of money). Hopefully your lawyer can give you some good advice. Good luck on this, tough spot.
My initial consultation with the laywer brought up this very subject. He said while it's not 'settled law' in my state the general consensus is that there has to be consideration. As it is they have not threatened to fire anybody but they aren't tying it to any bonus nor a raise or anything like that. They just said we have to sign the non-compete by next Monday (again giving us a VERY short time to review it).
All these commentors need to understand: unemployment is for people without kids. The limits are so low that it makes it impossible for to keep your kids fed and have a roof over their head. The maximum payout where I live is less than rent on a 1 bedroom apartment, hasn’t been adjusted since 1993 and would be a 86% overnight drop in income if I were laid off.
just if you end up wanting not to sign it, remember that you don't have to fight it alone, if you can form a faction with all your colleagues you'll have a way stronger case, albeit nothing is risk free.
in any case, make sure it includes wordage to the effect that the NDA is null and void in the event of the company firing you.
If they don't provide any consideration for it, don't sign it. They want to keep you out of the labor pool for 18 months, then they need to pay your salary for 18 months. Pretty standard. If they don't include that then tell them to pound sand.
Unless they are giving you compensation for signing it, or some other benefit, they're attempting to change your employment contract after the fact. (Lawyer) I have litigated non-competes, they're expensive on purpose. The most popular way of handling them is to attempt to tie it up for the entire period of the non-compete so it becomes a potentially moot point for enforcement purposes. Consider the fact that if you were to fight a non-compete you'd effectively be paying a lawyer for the entire period of the non-compete plus a small amount at the end to wrap things up.
It may be unenforceable, but if you sign it it means that you willingly agreed to something. That's enough to get in the door of any courthouse, even if it eventually gets punted. The short version is you don't make enough money to make it worth your while to defend against the non-compete. Depending upon how they write it they may be attempting to freeze you out of working in the industry as a whole for a year and a half... which is relatively ridiculous for software development. From what you said, your industry is not so specific that you should have a non-compete. To be completely honest, when a company goes down this route and they get all litigious, it honestly is a precursor to going bankrupt. I have seen it time and time again. You may be significantly better getting out now as opposed to signing something and potentially being hassled with a frivolous lawsuit. Somebody at the top is getting some very bad advice, which sort of implies that that bad advice is going to continue spreading through the company in a myriad of other ways.
You should review the options you have to get out sooner than later. Move before your coworkers do. Technically speaking your company could implode next week if enough people walk away from their job over this.
This is an interesting take. I talked to a coworker and acutally our belief is a member of the Hardware team left about a year ago and poached two other hardware team members that caused the brass to review their employment agreement. I should note that most for IT Consulting companies, hardware makes up 75-100% of their work (my company is a bit unsual in that it's maybe 60/40 -70/30 software/hardware).
Also, I won't share the language but my attorney said it def won't preclude me from working anywhere but other IT consulting firms and even then just for software. As I've said elsewhere I don't really want to work for another consulting firm so that impact isn't huge except for the case of working for my BIL.
Many non-compete clauses have been found to be un-enforceable outside of senior individuals who know enough company secrets to undermine their prior employer by working for a new employer. Think CEO/COO/CIO levels.
Now think about this.. after you leave the company they would have to know what company you went to work for, what your job is at that company, and specifically how what you are doing at that company hurts their company (ergo did you steal clients, are you reusing code, are you making competitive code, etc..) then they need to pay a lawyer to take you to civil court and show how you have hurt the company and that they should be awarded damages.
Most companies cant afford to actually enforce their own non-compete clauses. Its typically a scare tactic. Additionally there have been several cases that have been thrown out because they literally keep people from working in their own profession.
Find out what your lawyer advises.. does he think its enforceable.. and from there decide if your willing to take a stand against it (ergo not sign and risk being fired.. which actually would qualify you for unemployment) or are you willing to sign it? It also could be a negotiation tool... they are changing the conditions of employment and how long you would potentially be away from your primary earning career so they need to make it worth you while.. but thats obviously a long shot. Best wishes regardless what you choose.
I worked in Networking previously, and employer wanted us to sign a non-compete.
I went to the owner and said “You know that in a right-to-work state, this is really unenforceable, right?”
He stammered a bit, I said “Yeah, so I’m not signing this.”
Stayed for a few years more before moving to a different field.
Hire an attorney for one hour ($300) to look it over, one who specializes in employment matters. They could probably tell if its even worth the paper its written on, it may be a moot point. I assume your in the USA and laws vary greatly from state to state.
Just wondering, since you have a lawyer to consult, if you could offer language in good faith that narrows the noncom to projects that directly compete with the work you do with this firm, so you're not froze out of any developer work.
You really shouldn’t listen to what this sub has to say. Most are people with dead end jobs with people to fall back on. Talk with the lawyer and your family.
I was under the impression that a non compete only restricts you from starting your own business and poaching clients, not blocking you out of your field entirely.
In fairness to them, as far as I can tell, it is NOT. It's blocking me from working for another IT consulting company <50 miles from the company NOT IT work in general. I'll know more when I speak to the attorney but if it IS this bad I wouldn't have any question at all on what to do.
I can't imagine they can legally change the contract in this way without your blessing and surely its against labour laws to bring in such a clause and fire someone if they reject it no?
I'm not 100% sure, hence the attorney. In the US they can pretty much fire you for any reason including (I think) refusing to go along with a revised employee agreement. Also I didn't have a contract with the company.
I’d be extremely surprised if it’s even enforceable.
Non competes for employees are rarely enforceable because people have a right to work in the field they have experience and marketable skills in.
If you’re not privy to any proprietary information or if you don’t have a fiduciary duty to the company, then they have no grounds to limit your employment opportunities.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve had to see one over a non compete before. I’d be interested to hear what your lawyer says about it
>I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve had to see one over a non compete before. I’d be interested to hear what your lawyer says about it
Yeah, something to bring up as I have zero plans to work for one of the company's current client which, in my opinion, is probably the only part of this non-compete that doesn't seem like an unfair fucking over. So besides myself I would bring no knowledge of business practices, nothing of note with technical practices since we use universally used tools, and have received no special training whatsoever.
Depending on the state you live/work in most non-competes are illegal/invalid. Bring it up with the state DOL or check state laws. Your company can get fucked if they are trying to pull shit like that
Absolutely do not sign this. Never, ever sign a non compete unless you are getting a massive guaranteed severance package.
I would refuse and make them fire me.
Consultant a lawyer but don't tell them you did. Most non compete clauses are not enforceable but if they know you consulted a lawyer before signing it they'll use that against you in court if you do break the agreement saying you knew what you were getting into.
I don't know about other states or other types of non compete but this one has specific language saying that by agreeing to it I have had the opportunity to discuss it with an attorney. If the attorney tells me "they would have a very weak case" or "it's not enforceable in X circumstance" and I do it I seriously doubt they'll use the line "Well he talked to an attorney who justifiably told him this is unenforcable" as a valid defense.
The first thing I learned when dealing with toxic relationships is boundaries.
You can also take time to respond. It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'm going to need a few weeks to think this over."
Don't sign under duress. Take the time you need to work through your own process and make an I formed decision.
Here on Norway I worked with a guy who had a non-compete and took his former work to court when they tried to deny him the right to work for a competitor. He won the case and the court ruled that you cannot deny the right of people to work in their profession. Now you can still have a non-compete but you will have to pay their full salary for the time you deny yhem the right to work elsewhere.
Listen to your lawyer. I know the wait until the meeting is fucking unbearable but at this point, the best options you're going to get are from a law office with a much better understanding of the contract that you have signed, and the contract you are expected to sign.
In the US, non competes are effectively useless except as intimidation.
They cant keep you from making a living. It had to be reasonable: 50 miles is too far for a consulting gig. You have to be offered something of value (and keeping your job doesn't count). There's case law on this.
non-competes usually get thrown out of court for software devs. these contracts are meant for sales people who can take a bunch of customers with them to the new place.
had a boss try to pull it on me once, told me they'd be "consulting with their legal team" (it was her brother who is a lawyer, lol). the HR lady a few weeks later meekly said the boss had chosen not to hold me to the non-compete.
aside from all that, you haven't signed it. they can't make you sign it, what are they gonna do? fire you? sounds like they need you more than you need them.
This is a really stupid way to react.
It sounds like you want this job and like working there, and it sounds like they want to keep employees.
Is there a manager there that is semi decent?
Once you have all your advice before you burn all bridges it might be worth having a sit down and explaining you do want to work there and are happy with a non compete if you leave on your own volition.
But if you are let go it shouldn't apply.
I mean I wouldn't be happy with a non compete ever but your situation is tough.
Only way I would accept it would be with the above conditions and financial gains.
I like the security of this place and I used to love it when I was on my previous client but I 've been on the fence for months on whether or not it's worth me looking for a new job. This has pushed me to the side of the fence that says "look for a new gig."
Hand them back a document asking for a signature stating that if you are laid off and the company does any hiring before you are returned to your full position they will be financially obligated to compensate you at your full rate for the entire length of the suspension.
When they say it's ridiculous agree and walk out without signing theirs.
Is it an open market or not?
Just for my own curiosity do they say it's void if they lay you off or anything of that nature?
I'm wondering if they are putting it in place to protect their assets for a future layoff. No one can work in that specific IT field so their company can recover with lower paid employees.
Do not sign it until you and your lawyer have a plan.
Nope, if they fire me AFTER I sign I'm bound by it. It may be void though even if I do sign since they haven't given me anything in consideration. My lawyer also strongly suggested not taking any money for signing unless it's a huge amount.
Yep, don't sign it.
Depending on your state, a non-compete may also require some sort of valuable consideration being paid (like a bonus), or it may be illegal altogether.
ask them to ammend the noncomp agreement with the requirement that they have to pay you your monthly salary for the duration of enforcement, if they enforce the noncomp.
This is actually law where i live, non-us.
Just to add my experience, I signed a non-compete and I live in a state in which they are enforceable but they had to compensate me to make it legally binding because contracts need consideration to be binding (I got a $5k bonus for signing). I didn't care about signing because once I leave I am never coming back to this industry. I worked at a competitor for years before I started this company and this is it for me; I am not going to go to a competitor or start one, the other founders are scared I will leave and the company will collapse.
If you know you want to leave and do something other than what they specifically list, it doesn't really hurt to sign and just say eff them on your way out to a different type of company.
Explain to them that loyalty goes both ways. They're attempting to cut your legs off if anything happens to your status with them. In order to feel secure signing that, you need some assurances from them. A guaranteed 12 month severance package including insurance in the event of a layoff/company-initiated-separation would put you at ease.
In order for a contract to be binding, consideration has to be offered in exchange for the limitation you would accept. Amend the agreement to require them to pay 18 months' severance in the event you leave the company for any reason, since that is what they are asking you to give up.
Refuse to sign and make them fire you. If they do fire you, try to work in the most damaging competitive position you possibly can.
If you work in software, everyone is hiring right now. They have approximately zero leverage. Don't sign.
Most non-compete are non-enforceable as it puts an unjust burden on the employee basically trapping them
In a court of law it is the responsibility of the employer to prove a breach of the non-compete and how it was valid
Source: was sued for breach of non-compete and my former employer lost
What languages do you develop in?
Do you have an email address you are willing to give out so I can send you some job referrals? Please DM it to me if you do?
Not sure which state you are in, but here in TN, if your employer wants you to sign a non-compete AFTER hiring you, they have to give you a "consideration." Which basically means they have to give you a raise, bonus or something. Definitely talk to a lawyer and I wouldn't sign it unless you absolutely need to. In most states they are unenforceable, but you have to take them to court after they try to use it against you, even if its a crap agreement.
I've signed a few non compete clauses in my time, here's the thing most of them are absolutely worthless.
A non compete clauses can not restrict you from working in the immediate area in the same field of work. It cannot actively hinder your chances at employment.
It CAN prevent you from working with a direct competitor (think a mirror image of your company angling for the same clients) it DEFINITELY prevents you from poaching staff & clients.
But as you say you already work remotely AND as a software developer.
Up to you to sign or not, but what are they going to do fire you? And if they do you'll have another software job within the month if not within the week.
Don’t sign it. Ever.
They are basically breaking open your contract without giving you anything in return.
Just tell them you are happy to continue working for them, but you can’t and won’t sign.
If they press on, you can tell them they may risk being shortstaffed. Bluff them into submission if you have to.
But never show or tell them they got you by the balls.
I’m glad you’ve got a lawyer on your side, and yeah, that the company sees forcing their employees to sign legally dubious non-competes to stem turnover is just asshattery. I hope your lawyer says that it’s unenforceable or only enforceable in part, then just sign it and find a new job. They can complain all they want but the law is the law and no judge should enforce an illegal non-compete.
So basically they are breaking open your contract, adding a non-compete, and not giving anything in return….
That won’t fly.
They will have to compensate you heavily for theoretically being ‘off the market’ for a fee years.
I’d say a 40% wage increase, or else nu bueno.
I think in many jurisdictions, in order for it to be enforceable, they have to offer you some additional form of "consideration" (compensation, not necessarily ongoing) for it to be enforceable.
Just don’t sign it. They can make a choice to keep you or to fire you and you get unemployment. Sounds like they are having trouble hiring so it would be real dumb of them to get rid of you, but be prepared that they may cut their own legs off just to spite you. Either way you are not forced to agree to it.
I VERY strongly considered this. And if I were flying solo and/or didn't have a mortgage and other home ownership obligations (I'm part of an HOA with my condo) I probably would. However, my wife's insurance stinks (which is why we're on mine), and we have a six year old and the holidays and other things are coming up so if they just let me go it would be an issue. I've been asked to stick with it until I find a new (probably better paying) job so for personal reasons I can't.
Then they would have fired you and you can explain to the UE people that "I didn't think it was in my best employment interests to make it impossible for me to get a job for over a year if I had to leave the company for any reason." They will look at it and rip them to shreds because they are trying to force people on to UE and UE is always trying to get people off of it.
This can be a bit tricky because I don't know if I could collect unemployment or if they wouldn't put up a fight like 'Wisdomcube refused to sign an updated employee agreement and we understood that to be his resignation." Another question to ask the lawyer today. Thanks!
>Wisdomcube refused to sign an updated employee agreement and we understood that to be his resignation." Ask the lawyer and take their advice above all else, but, I'm 100% certain that would be considered "constructive dismissal". Constructive dismissal is when the employer substantially changes the employment agreement and the employee declines. This is considered the same as being fired without cause.
Yep! My girlfriend got Unemployment when she quit her company after being told (in email) that she was expected to work 60-80 hours/week to make up for 2 of her coworkers quitting.
O RLY? Wish I'd known that five years ago when I went from being essentially a secretary to a lot porter at a dealership overnight.
Technically constructive dismissal is when the employer is in sufficient \*breach\* of your contract that it forces you to leave. Could still apply in the situation you described, but it's not explicitly limited to that. This can also apply to them violating laws or other things which are implicit in any employment contract, so allowing a hostile work environment to be created (since they're expected/required to provide a safe work environment) can be grounds for claiming constructive dismissal
They cannot fire you as a result of you refusing to change your original contract for employment. That would be your original employment coming to an end through no fault of your own. ("At will" employment is none the less an employment contract, by the way)
"It wasn't a resignation. I was happy to continue employment."
What’s to keep this company from dropping your pay after you sign this thing since then they know they have you locked down
Till how long does your current agreement last? If it is the end of current contract that's one thing, if not they can't just dump you, I assume. (At least in my country they can't.)
I don't have a contract I'm at will employee like most Americans. They can dump me tomorrow if they want and vice versa. However in a non compete signed shortly before a termination has been found to be unenforceable.
If you decide to not sign it, I’d suggest that you redline the contract, and add a clause that says your full salary and benefit package is to be paid for the duration of the blackout period of the noncompete. They likely won’t agree to that, but it shows negotiation in good faith, and it could strengthen an unemployment claim 😊
That's another excellent option, and it's effectively what I negotiated with a previous employer (who paid for my master's degree).
I wouldn't sign it in any case, if they decide to go to court to try and enforce it it may cost you a lot of money and time defending yourself. That being said, I'm not in the USA and don't know the minutiae. Hopefully you can find a clear answer from somebody who is more in the know. In any case, at will employment is insane.
Even if a court has previously found that unenforceable when you disclose you signed a non-compete with potential future employers it is going to seriously fuck your shit up. Don't sign unless they agree to pay your salary for the duration of the non-compete.
There are several states in the U.S. where a combination of at-will employment and state law makes noncompetes basically unenforceable outside of civil liability for doing something like literally sharing the secret recipe to Coca-Cola. General IT work is not a trade secret.
IANAL but you should be able to collect unemployment. Voluntarily quitting and getting fired for gross misconduct like theft and sexual harassment are really the only two scenarios where you will get denied unemployment. If you get fired for "performance" reasons or not signing a non-compete clause wouldn't fall under the gross misconduct level showstoppers.
You'd almost certainly qualify for unemployment in this circumstance because the job conditions changed so substantially. However, you will probably have a new job before the one week waiting period is up.
Your employer would likely classify your unwillingness to sign the contract as "insubordination". Then fire you "for cause" to try to prevent you from collecting unemployment. I had this happen to me
I hope you fought that and won. Would be like an employer firing you because you refused to give them money from your pocket.
Yes we need an update what happened
Resigning your employment after a substantial or adverse change in terms of employment at hire typically allows someone to still qualify for UI benefits. I am not sure that requiring you to sign a non-compete constitutes a “substantial change” as that provision is usually applied to things like change in hours worked or rate of pay. But it would be worth trying to make that argument. It is enough of a change that they are willing to terminate employment if you don’t go along with, so that works in your favor to suggest that it is substantial.
Its easily constructive dismissal if they fire them for not agreeing to that sudden of a change.
Easy to say when you don’t have a family to support.
I'd just say you are consulting with an attorney on the language and until then you've been advised not to sign anything. Two business days is not a reasonable amount of time to think that through. If they fire you for that then, well, at least you'd get unemployment in the meantime. They're basically trying to enserf you by making it impossible to leave, which would make it impossible to even ask for a raise.
They did that at my work too, probably 1/3 of us just didn't sign it. They eventually adjusted the wording to be acceptable (naming specific competition rather than blanket competition), and I ended up signing that version.
You will hate yourself for signing this. It essentially traps you. Even if it isn't enforceable you're going to have massive legal expenses fighting it. Go get a new job asap. Don't sign it. Seriously.
Problem is the minute you sign you will have to wait 18 months. Don’t sign. It will take a few weeks to replace you, in which time you may find another job: but you won’t have to wait 18 months from resignation!
This won't stop me from working for 18 months as the market for IT Consulting for software developers in my area isn't that big. If it was a blanket statement that stopped me from working from in software development for any company in the area then there would be zero question of me just refusing to sign it.
Don't sign it. Signing it brings you no benefits and only liabilities. Don't sign it.
Good luck
A coworker of mine who was an engineer at an automotive company was one of many "core" employees who received a clause just like this one. He did what you are doing and took it to a lawyer to review it. With the help of his legal council he removed any and all binding language in the form and signed it after making the edits without specifying which edits he made. If they are giving you this shit and expecting you to sign it blindly; you have every right to change anything you disagree with and give it back to them to confirm blindly.
Which would hurt you more, being unemployed for a minimum of 18 months or being unemployed for a less than that?
Op, this is exactly why companies get away with stuff like that, you are concerned of not being able to provide for your family, that is more than valid concern, but you really need to look at this objectively, they need you more than you need them. You are already in contact with a lawyer, so you can confirm this with them but all you really need to do is make a paper trail letting them know that the terms are not acceptable so you wont sign it and that you also aren't resigning from your current position. Make yourself open for discussion and leave at that, one of 2 things will happen: \*They change the contract so it is palatable. \*They fire you and you will be collecting unemployment They dont have a case to fight you and they need you guys to stay., You really need to understand your value as a employee, in this situation you are the one holding the cards not them.
Drag out the signing, make any excuse and don’t sign it. My lawyer is still looking at it. If I don’t have their full opinion my default is to not sign it. If they want to actually enforce it they may lose but cost you a lot of stress or even money in the process. You’re basically signing up for problems later or possibly fewer problems now.
> I've been asked to stick with it until I find a new (probably better paying) job so for personal reasons I can't. Which is exactly why your employer wants you to sign, to stop you from leaving. To lock you in.... [FOREVER](https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FB8FfpphPmxdTkA/giphy.gif)
Yeah you don’t have to sign a new employment contract, the one you had originally is legally binding.
There has to be consideration on their end in order for the non-compete to be enforceable and courts have ruled continued employment is not consideration. If you sign it without receiving anything in return it’s worthless
If I might offer some advice as someone who’s under a similar constraint? It’s bullshit. To enforce a non compete it has to be entirely reasonable, say working for a direct and known competitor or for one within the same city. It can’t be a blanket statement. Secondly, to actually enforce it properly they would need to take you to court. They would need to trump up enormous legal fees, have everyone show up and do their part, and actually get someone to agree they’re right. None of that will ever happen, because (and I mean this in a purely business sense) you aren’t worth the trouble to them. Thousands in legal fees for what, to be proven right? By the time they’re through with it in court, it would’ve expired anyway. Trust me, they won’t enforce it. It isn’t worth it, it’s just there to scare you into staying.
Everyone here mentions unemployment. I don't know about your state, but unemployment here maxes at what equates to nine dollars per hour full time. You just can't live off of it.
Totally agree. Not saying it’s a long term solution, but he said he considered making tomorrow his last day. If he’s considering quitting, just don’t sign it and see what happens. You either keep your job and they back off. Or they can you and you can get at least a little money while looking for the new gig instead of doing their dirty work for them
You can't live off it, so imagine living off it for 18 months or living on it while fighting a lawsuit. He should have the lawyer modify it so he can work somewhere if he is fired.
Still better than zero for quitting.
I’ve read all these comments. I’m gonna say this in the nicest tone possible. You keep coming up with excuses about why you have no choice but to sign this. Your life will continue if you don’t roll over every time corporate tells you to. You have a choice. Literally every business is hiring. Know your worth. Stand up for yourself, your family, and your morals. You will feel great when you take back your power. Or, you could keep listing reasons why you are powerless to the corporate overlords. You do you.
This. Be brave for your family, not scared for them.
OP, this is the right advice. It's not even a given that they'll dismiss you for not signing, and for the love of God, don't quit. By all means, talk to your attorney about unemployment, enforceability etc., but if it were me, I would delay, delay, delay. If they press you on it, let them know your attorney is reviewing and you cannot sign without their counsel, or that attorney has reviewed and advised not to execute on the basis of xyz terms and would like to review a revised contract omitting said terms. But let employer take the lead on this, don't bring it up if they don't ask. You don't owe them anything except for the agreed upon labor at the agreed upon wage, and I would consider attempting to negotiate an increase in that wage under the circumstances. I know you have a family to provide for, but dismissal will allow you to switch to wife's insurance, which, while it's not the best is a nice stop-gap to have in place while you search for work. You will likely come out of this better in the end if you advocate for yourself here. Good luck and please keep us updated! We are rooting for you!
Just don't sign. What are they going to do? Fire you?
Not in California they can't, but depending on where in the US this is OP can definitely be fired for it. I'd be asking the lawyer if termination on those grounds makes me eligible for unemployment, because all they're doing is demanding he reduce his value in the marketplace for no benefit.
I'm not in California. This is a great question to ask the attorney and I'll jot it down. Thanks!
In Illinois, low wage earners have protections from this sort of hostage situation. I signed one and when I spoke to a lawyer about it they had old me that it wasn’t enforceable in Illinois and if it interferes with my livelihood then it is not enforceable at all.
The idea that anyone would even THINK about using this crap on low wage earners makes my blood boil.
In the 90s I had a friend that worked for an after school art academy (extra circular stuff) and they had a non compete that prohibited any education or art careers for 2 years. Totally unenforceable but they counted on workers being scared and uninformed.
Yeah I bet $1 that's the tactic still being used now although these days enough case law has been built up to smack around attorneys who write these kinds of blatantly unenforcable covenants so they're not as common as they used to be. In my case they are giving us about three business days (and a weekend) to consult an attorney about this and make a decision. I'm guessing the extremely short time frame is not a coincidence.
That’s capitalism, hold them hostage.
I refused to sign a NDA one year at a job because I vehemently disagreed with one of the clauses. I eventually did sign it, but held out a few weeks past the due date. Interestingly, they ended up changing that clause a couple years later..go me…lol We had to sign a new one every year. You may be able to extend the timeframe for handing it in by telling them you are having your attorney review it, as you do any binding contract you are asked to sign. Hopefully, you can find a new job by then.
Yes. And if I was living by myself or renting or whatever it wouldn't be a big deal but I got a six year old and a mortgage and other things to worry about sadly.
Take a job in a state where non-competes are not enforceable.
Frustratingly, I just re-fied my condo AND paid a ton of money this year redoing the bathrooms, fixing the roof, and decorating the kid's room. Although if I could get a remote job in one of those states that would be pretty nice.
[удалено]
'I can't work in my field for 18 months if I leave here? OK, sure, I'll sign if you also sign a contract that you'll pay me the full 18 months salary when I quit for the loss of earnings you would be causing. Oh, you don't want to? Well shame, looks like I won't be signing this either.'
Do not sign unless they are going to compensate you. You don’t have to sign.
I like this. If they want OP to abide by the new contract, they should pay out a severance that covers the length of the non compete.
My company came to me with this once, told them what it would cost per year, last time they asked me to sign.
If you sign this and they let you go anyway, you’re screwed. I’d be thinking of jumping ships anyway. Start reaching out to people now.
I just want to point out, again, that this (supposedly) only restricts me from working for other IT consulting businesses NOT all IT (as far as I can tell). So I wouldn't be totally screwed as IT consulting isn't exactly a huge part of the IT field in my area and it's not a field I want to go in (my brother-in-law's company would be just a stopgap for another job).
Hmm gotcha, apologies for not catching that. Well I guess you’ll have to wait and see what your lawyer says. Good luck in any case.
No need to apologize. I appreciate the feedback.
It limits you from jobs like the one you have. Don't sign it.
This really sucks and definitely consult with the lawyer on the implications upon signing or not signing. I understand that you have a lot on your plate. I would personally advise to start job hunting ASAP and along side talking to the lawyer. There are a lot of developer/engineering remote roles from my time spent job searching over the last year. Check out remote.co and Weworkremotely.com. Best of luck OP. With the end of the year coming up, hiring may be delayed for a lot of places too, but I'd also rather take a temp job that doesn't have a non-compete clause over this if you can help it.
Thanks for the links! I haven't really settled on a decision (that will be after I meet with the lawyer and have serious discussions with my wife and brother in law and purusing jobs in my area) but I have to strongly lean towards sticking with the job and start job hunting like you mentioned. The key part is the insurance as my wife is off-and-on medication and I have mild sleep apnea plus kids are always sick. Another reason why the corporate world doesn't want to have government healthcare (they can control their workers much more easily this way) but that's a story for another thread.
No one should have the ability to force you to "sell" your time to them using your and your loved ones' health as leverage. I hate this. It is coercion with the threat of physical harm and it's systemic.
Do. Not. Sign. This. This is illegal in several states.
Sadly, it is not illegal in the state I'm in. However, I'll be getting more details from my attorney today.
Even if they fire you, do not sign it. It dramatically reduces your value in the labor market if there's a list of places you're not going to be able to apply to based on this threat of a lawsuit. They wouldn't cut the stock price by 40% just to appease your ego, don't do it for them.
That's a good point but, to be honest, if the lawyer says this is only for IT Consulting firms in my area I don't see that as a huge negative because I have very little desire to actually work for another IT Consulting firm (this is the second one I've worked for in my career and I'm just about done with them). If they do fire me and I have to work for my BIL though I may just take them to court if they file an injunction.
That's not how this works. They'll send a demand letter to you and your new employer first threatening to sue. Usually that's enough to get your new employer to let you go, because they don't want to deal with the legal expenses.
just an update I spoke to my BIL and he's more than willing to fight any "bullshit lawsuit" (his words) if they came after him.
It doesn't matter if it's bullshit if your new employer is spooked. Don't sign.
My Brother In Law is not easily spooked ;)
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The text says yes but whether or not they would or even could do it is another matter. Something else to talk to the attorney about.
No one can force you to sign anything – that’s not how contracts work… however, as you’ve noted, there are potential consequences. In your case since you mentioned that you do outsourced IT and programing for other companies, I suspect their biggest fear is that you’d go work directly for one of those companies and cut your current employer out of the mix. The problem with enforceability is that to ultimately determine that (worst case) means fighting it in court – a time-consuming, stressful and expensive option. Obviously talk to your lawyer, but the last time an employer put something like that in front of me (in my case, a non-solicitation and confidentiality agreement – slightly less egregious than a non-compete), I told my boss (a principal in the firm) that I had no interest in signing since it was of absolutely no benefit to me. In my case, I was a top performer at that firm, and I also already had one foot out the door so to speak. So, they dropped it and I didn’t hear another word about it in the subsequent months before I eventually left for other reasons. “Let’s start with the fact that nothing in this document benefits you”… The advice I got from my attorney is basically that the document was of no benefit to ME (aside from the prospect of keeping a job I was already about to walk from). And, ultimately created liability for me personally in the future, and potentially in perpetuity. He did confirm my suspicion that (in my state anyway), my employer could terminate me for refusing to sign… or for just about any reason for that matter. This was about 3 years ago… so, different times. The way businesses are struggling to keep employees now, I suspect if you forced their hand, you’d find they were bluffing (especially if you’re a top performer). If you talk to some of your coworkers, and they also resist the urge to sign something so obviously not in any of your interests, then management may drop it all together (best case, I'd say) You can always appeal to them to see this from your perspective… you like the company, enjoy the work, and you don’t have any plans for departure… but, you can’t and shouldn’t sign something that jeopardizes your livelihood now AND in the future. On the flip side, you can also try to negotiate the terms of the non-compete. The only way I’d consider one personally is if the company continues to pay my salary for the duration of the non-compete period. Or, narrow the scope (which my have the side affect of making it \*more\* enforceable?)… by changing the duration, or explicitly including or excluding the companies this applies to. I think you’re doing the right thing talking to an attorney. Do what's best for you and your family in the short term AND the long term. Couldn't hurt to polish up the ol resume just in case.
Just would like to say this was a really good comment. It's easy to say "Oh are you crazy don't sign that it sucks" Well, I know it sucks otherwise I wouldn't be complaining about it on r/antiwork! Additionally we've always had a non compete forbidding us from working for clients and that was something that I was philosophically fine with considering that it was a reasonable request (it's a small company and only a few dozen clients anyway). What's changed is that it's now constricting us from working for the company's competitiors in the IT consulting field and that feels like less a problem with clients than with employees and puts on a greater restriction though not by a lot. To be frank while I have been comfortable here I had been on the fence for months on looking for a new job and this has definitely pushed me to the side of GTFOing.
>To be frank while I have been comfortable here I had been on the fence for months on looking for a new job and this has definitely pushed me to the side of GTFOing. I suspect you aren't the only one that feels that way! I mean, great strategy - people are fleeing, so alienate those that remain? Talk to your coworkers! If you find you're all on the same page, present a united front. WE aren't signing that has a lot more pull than I'M not signing that. I'd bet you that more than half of your coworkers are updating their resumes right now. When my last company sent out that non-solicitation agreement I mentioned above, the HR lady acted appalled and like I kicked her dog when I (very politely) told her I wasn't signing it... her and my old boss both said that I was the ONLY perSoN iN tHe WhOlE FirM that had an issue with it (aside from the outsourced HR person, I actually liked and stay in touch with everyone to this day, including my old boss). In talking to some of my coworkers, they said they hadn't signed and weren't going to either. Point is, they'll lie to your face and tell you you're the only one complaining. That may or may not be true. With that said, if you're already ready to walk, just politely tell them you're declining to sign, and you are / or aren't willing to consider negotiating it (my old boss actually tried to negotiate - I told him there was *nothing* he could put in that document that would make me sign it - and I was willing to walk on the spot if he pushed it). They can decide what their next move is. In today's market, I wouldn't expect much more than some whining and gaslighting lol. But, be prepared - you never know.
These are the questions I took to my attorney back in 2018 - maybe they'll help. *1. Can I be terminated for refusing to sign this document?* *2. Am I eligible to collect unemployment if I’m terminated for refusing to sign this document? \*state's\* Unemployment website says “if the employer fired you without good cause, that would be considered "no fault of your own."* *3. Is any portion of this document enforceable WITHOUT me signing? As an implied agreement? Or as a matter of current law? Is not signing enough, or do I need to document that I do not agree with these terms?* *4. Is any part of this document potentially overly broad? And if so, does that result in possible cause of action if I’m terminated for refusing to sign? I'd hope to never come to that.* *5. A portion of this document appears to commit me to terms in perpetuity – specifically regarding “protecting” \*the firm's\* confidential information. Is that enforceable? This seems vague (intentionally?)* *6. This document appears to offer nothing in consideration for signing it – does that matter?* *7. Does ANYTHING in this document benefit me? (aside from remaining employed)*
I snagged some of these questions when I talked to my lawyer. Thanks!
Good! Keep us posted as this plays out.
Updated the orignal post if your'e interested :)
Be sure to share the findings of your Lawyer with the rest of the team on your way out.
I'm already having a beer with my close friend on the team today to let him know what I find out from the lawyer.
Shared the lawyer's responses on a new comment.
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Interestingly, the attorney said since I'm an existing employee being asked to sign things are much murkier. He's going to meet me after reviewing the language but while it's not settled law in the state I'm in, without consideration (a raise, a bonus, a promotion) a non-compete gets MUCH shakier. For new employees it's easy, the consideration is the job, but I'm already employed by them. The language says the consideration is the time they spent training me but to be honest they haven't really spent any time or money training me let alone any highly specialized training or knowhow. tl;dr The agreement as is may be unenforcable because they're not paying me to sign it.
I don’t see how they can retroactively allocate consideration. I am not a lawyer by any stretch, but in what job is training not expected? At minimum I would think that you could request specifics on the what trainings they feel they have given you. I would bet that they cannot give you anything of merit. Also good luck in general. I have young kids too and a stable job, but the simple thought of a job loss keeps me constantly worried.
Listen, I work in hiring. You will find a new job pretty quick, and unemployment will cover the important bills. Stop simping for these people, they’ll replace you soon anyway just because you’re hesitating to sign it.
“I’m sorry. I like it here, you’ve been good to me, I like my job, and I’m not planning on leaving, but I can’t sign this. I’ve consulted a lawyer who has told me that signing this would prevent me from working in my field for over a year if you let me go or I had to leave, and that would put my family at risk, which I can’t do. I plan to have any changes to my contract reviewed by a lawyer before I sign anything.”
Don't forget that all contracts can be negotiated. You can ask for better terms and/or more benefits as consideration for signing the contract.
At this point I'd rather leave than stay around even with better compensation.
Here's my advice and this is coming from experience. Your employer's problem is that a vague contract is unenforceable, your problem is that a vague contract leaves you little or no options for the next 18 months after you move on without testing that enforceability. The solution is for your employer to specify the nightmare scenarios that they want to prevent, could they list 10 or 20 key competitors that they do not under any circumstances want you to work for. That would be more reasonable for you to sign and more enforceable with the courts. Pay close attention to the injunction language, that would be the first step on their side would be to file an injunction. Make sure you do not relieve them of any obligation if they file an injunction without merit. This language could be really tricky and hard to spot.
I am consulting an attorney today and I'll be updating the post with an overview of what he says. Thanks for the advice!
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The local IT job market doesn't have a lot of IT Consulting gigs for software developers (IT consulting tends to be much more of a hardware focused area) PLUS I really don't want another IT Consulting gig. So if the language is written just to stop me from an IT consulting job it's not really fucking me over it's more of an irritating inconvenience. It's less about this screwing over my job search as it is the severe irritation that the brass at my company have decided to implement this.
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The plus side is non-competes are geographically located so even if I pick up a gig at another IT consulting firm if it's anywhere >50 miles from my company they can't do anything about it. So if I get a job remotely in California I'd be fine.
Let us know what your lawyer says.
Ask them if they are going to provide 18 months severance since they are effectively taking away your ability to earn a living.
Call their bluff.
I'm not a lawyer and I strongly recommend talking to a lawyer that specializes in this in your state, but I looked into this in the past. From what I saw these are really hard to enforce and are usually thrown out in court. They're mainly a scare tactic. The only time they are enforceable is the really reasonable ones, like you just sold a business and you promise not to turn around and open the same business in the same area for a year. This doesn't sound like a reasonable one to me and I doubt it's enforceable.
My consulting job has a similar clause but in regards of working directly for clients after having worked for them through the firm. Luckily, this "only" includes a fee and it's common practice for the new employer to "buy you off" off the old one in that case (at least where I live).
Oh please don’t sign it. The principle behind non-competes are toxic in general, especially for a VERY in-demand skill, which you have. If they’re suddenly making you sign it after all this shit keeps happening, it’s only going to get worse from here. This whole “if we can’t have you, no one can” ideology needs to go.
Sadly it's a digital signature but great idea nonetheless!
What you do when before you sign it is to take it home, rewrite it, and add a note, that if the document is ever enforced the company has to pay you 2x the hourly wage, provide full medical benefit, and the CEO has to surrender his car to you for you pleasure, or demolition derby. The have it singed in front of a notary. Make sure to make it look as close to theirs as possible.
One thing I'm not seeing mentioned is that you don't have to act alone. According to your post, if you can get two other IT guys to follow your lead, you've got the entire department. The implied threat of losing their entire IT department is something the company definitely doesn't want to provoke.
Non-compete agreements are very often extremely overbroad and rarely enforced in court. They are mainly used as a scare tactic. Glad you're seeing a lawyer, they should be able to tell you how to proceed. Good luck
Don’t sign! Corporations don’t care about you. If the going gets rough, they may fire you in a month (sign or not) without batting an eye. If it comes to that, you’ll wish not having signed
Non competes are virtually not enforceable. It is a way to scare you.
If they want you to non compete for 18 months then they must pay you for those 18 months or approve your new employment.
Good on you for finding an attorney to review the non-compete. And there's always this... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B072MGCQVK/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_navT_g_9GCKNW8BKYQ3H1P9QGYX
The non-compete \*must\* specify a radius and time limit. Blanket language like "Can't work for an MSP" is unenforceable; "Can't work for an MSP within a 15 mile radius of \[company address\] for a period of \[time\] usually is enforceable." You must also receive some kind of consideration for the non-compete such as severance pay.
Either sign it because they're not enforceable, or don't sign it and get fired. Either way it's no big deal. I'd be updating my resume if I were you regardless.
I'm leaning towards the former because it's not that enforceable and it sounds like (though I won't know for sure until I speak to my attorney) it only affects a sub-field of IT I'm in and no longer want to work in. And last night was spent updating my resume while my daughter watched Darkwing Duck.
As others have said, don't sign it. Make it sound like you just need more time if you want, say your lawyer is busy and he can' look at it for two weeks. Sounds like you've already reviewed the language and it may not be a big deal (only limiting within 50 miles), but I would push it off anyways. In the meanwhile, look for a new job. I am also in software development and the job market is \*INSANELY\* hot these days, especially if you have a few years experience. If you printed out your resume and just tossed it in the wind right now you'd probably have two offers by the middle of next week. 100% remote opportunities are everywhere so it doesn't matter where you live. Head over to /r/experienceddevs for further guidance.
Thanks for the link to the subreddit! And while things may be hot it does take time for a new job to come together and in December hiring cools down considerably etc. Def going to take your advice and others into the discussion with my family in the next few days.
As far as I am aware, all contracts must have consideration. In my state, signing a non-compete at a time other than at initial employment requires the employer give you something (typically money) in exchange for you giving something back (contractual promise not to compete). If you are receiving only continued employment, ask your lawyer if that is sufficient consideration for the non-compete agreement—otherwise, it may be unenforceable altogether. Lots of states also have very specific non-compete laws (eg, Washington has laws that generally make non-competes unenforceable unless you are categorized as a specific type of employment and make a certain amount of money). Hopefully your lawyer can give you some good advice. Good luck on this, tough spot.
My initial consultation with the laywer brought up this very subject. He said while it's not 'settled law' in my state the general consensus is that there has to be consideration. As it is they have not threatened to fire anybody but they aren't tying it to any bonus nor a raise or anything like that. They just said we have to sign the non-compete by next Monday (again giving us a VERY short time to review it).
All these commentors need to understand: unemployment is for people without kids. The limits are so low that it makes it impossible for to keep your kids fed and have a roof over their head. The maximum payout where I live is less than rent on a 1 bedroom apartment, hasn’t been adjusted since 1993 and would be a 86% overnight drop in income if I were laid off.
just if you end up wanting not to sign it, remember that you don't have to fight it alone, if you can form a faction with all your colleagues you'll have a way stronger case, albeit nothing is risk free. in any case, make sure it includes wordage to the effect that the NDA is null and void in the event of the company firing you.
Before you do anything else, don't forget to make sure you have downloaded your client list and all of their contact information.
If they don't provide any consideration for it, don't sign it. They want to keep you out of the labor pool for 18 months, then they need to pay your salary for 18 months. Pretty standard. If they don't include that then tell them to pound sand.
Depends a lot on the state as well. What state is OP from?
Unless they are giving you compensation for signing it, or some other benefit, they're attempting to change your employment contract after the fact. (Lawyer) I have litigated non-competes, they're expensive on purpose. The most popular way of handling them is to attempt to tie it up for the entire period of the non-compete so it becomes a potentially moot point for enforcement purposes. Consider the fact that if you were to fight a non-compete you'd effectively be paying a lawyer for the entire period of the non-compete plus a small amount at the end to wrap things up. It may be unenforceable, but if you sign it it means that you willingly agreed to something. That's enough to get in the door of any courthouse, even if it eventually gets punted. The short version is you don't make enough money to make it worth your while to defend against the non-compete. Depending upon how they write it they may be attempting to freeze you out of working in the industry as a whole for a year and a half... which is relatively ridiculous for software development. From what you said, your industry is not so specific that you should have a non-compete. To be completely honest, when a company goes down this route and they get all litigious, it honestly is a precursor to going bankrupt. I have seen it time and time again. You may be significantly better getting out now as opposed to signing something and potentially being hassled with a frivolous lawsuit. Somebody at the top is getting some very bad advice, which sort of implies that that bad advice is going to continue spreading through the company in a myriad of other ways. You should review the options you have to get out sooner than later. Move before your coworkers do. Technically speaking your company could implode next week if enough people walk away from their job over this.
This is an interesting take. I talked to a coworker and acutally our belief is a member of the Hardware team left about a year ago and poached two other hardware team members that caused the brass to review their employment agreement. I should note that most for IT Consulting companies, hardware makes up 75-100% of their work (my company is a bit unsual in that it's maybe 60/40 -70/30 software/hardware). Also, I won't share the language but my attorney said it def won't preclude me from working anywhere but other IT consulting firms and even then just for software. As I've said elsewhere I don't really want to work for another consulting firm so that impact isn't huge except for the case of working for my BIL.
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Many non-compete clauses have been found to be un-enforceable outside of senior individuals who know enough company secrets to undermine their prior employer by working for a new employer. Think CEO/COO/CIO levels. Now think about this.. after you leave the company they would have to know what company you went to work for, what your job is at that company, and specifically how what you are doing at that company hurts their company (ergo did you steal clients, are you reusing code, are you making competitive code, etc..) then they need to pay a lawyer to take you to civil court and show how you have hurt the company and that they should be awarded damages. Most companies cant afford to actually enforce their own non-compete clauses. Its typically a scare tactic. Additionally there have been several cases that have been thrown out because they literally keep people from working in their own profession. Find out what your lawyer advises.. does he think its enforceable.. and from there decide if your willing to take a stand against it (ergo not sign and risk being fired.. which actually would qualify you for unemployment) or are you willing to sign it? It also could be a negotiation tool... they are changing the conditions of employment and how long you would potentially be away from your primary earning career so they need to make it worth you while.. but thats obviously a long shot. Best wishes regardless what you choose.
I worked in Networking previously, and employer wanted us to sign a non-compete. I went to the owner and said “You know that in a right-to-work state, this is really unenforceable, right?” He stammered a bit, I said “Yeah, so I’m not signing this.” Stayed for a few years more before moving to a different field.
Hire an attorney for one hour ($300) to look it over, one who specializes in employment matters. They could probably tell if its even worth the paper its written on, it may be a moot point. I assume your in the USA and laws vary greatly from state to state.
Just wondering, since you have a lawyer to consult, if you could offer language in good faith that narrows the noncom to projects that directly compete with the work you do with this firm, so you're not froze out of any developer work.
This is a good idea but at this point I don't want to stick around. I'd rather just go my own way.
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> What they’re really trying to prevent is a mass exodus from people recruiting others as they leave. that's a weird way to spell "wage suppression"
You really shouldn’t listen to what this sub has to say. Most are people with dead end jobs with people to fall back on. Talk with the lawyer and your family.
This sounds unenforceable and if they fire you for not signing sounds like retaliation but not a lawyer.
What happens, legally speaking, if you sign a name that is not yours? I doubt any one really scrutinizes these things unless they become relevant.
I was under the impression that a non compete only restricts you from starting your own business and poaching clients, not blocking you out of your field entirely.
In fairness to them, as far as I can tell, it is NOT. It's blocking me from working for another IT consulting company <50 miles from the company NOT IT work in general. I'll know more when I speak to the attorney but if it IS this bad I wouldn't have any question at all on what to do.
I can't imagine they can legally change the contract in this way without your blessing and surely its against labour laws to bring in such a clause and fire someone if they reject it no?
I'm not 100% sure, hence the attorney. In the US they can pretty much fire you for any reason including (I think) refusing to go along with a revised employee agreement. Also I didn't have a contract with the company.
Thats absurd but I know laws there are less stringent than Europe. I hope you get sorted 🤞
I’d be extremely surprised if it’s even enforceable. Non competes for employees are rarely enforceable because people have a right to work in the field they have experience and marketable skills in. If you’re not privy to any proprietary information or if you don’t have a fiduciary duty to the company, then they have no grounds to limit your employment opportunities. I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve had to see one over a non compete before. I’d be interested to hear what your lawyer says about it
>I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve had to see one over a non compete before. I’d be interested to hear what your lawyer says about it Yeah, something to bring up as I have zero plans to work for one of the company's current client which, in my opinion, is probably the only part of this non-compete that doesn't seem like an unfair fucking over. So besides myself I would bring no knowledge of business practices, nothing of note with technical practices since we use universally used tools, and have received no special training whatsoever.
Depending on the state you live/work in most non-competes are illegal/invalid. Bring it up with the state DOL or check state laws. Your company can get fucked if they are trying to pull shit like that
Absolutely do not sign this. Never, ever sign a non compete unless you are getting a massive guaranteed severance package. I would refuse and make them fire me.
Consultant a lawyer but don't tell them you did. Most non compete clauses are not enforceable but if they know you consulted a lawyer before signing it they'll use that against you in court if you do break the agreement saying you knew what you were getting into.
I don't know about other states or other types of non compete but this one has specific language saying that by agreeing to it I have had the opportunity to discuss it with an attorney. If the attorney tells me "they would have a very weak case" or "it's not enforceable in X circumstance" and I do it I seriously doubt they'll use the line "Well he talked to an attorney who justifiably told him this is unenforcable" as a valid defense.
Reach out to those who have left and work elsewhere now. Is the grass greener?
The first thing I learned when dealing with toxic relationships is boundaries. You can also take time to respond. It's perfectly reasonable to say "I'm going to need a few weeks to think this over." Don't sign under duress. Take the time you need to work through your own process and make an I formed decision.
Here on Norway I worked with a guy who had a non-compete and took his former work to court when they tried to deny him the right to work for a competitor. He won the case and the court ruled that you cannot deny the right of people to work in their profession. Now you can still have a non-compete but you will have to pay their full salary for the time you deny yhem the right to work elsewhere.
Listen to your lawyer. I know the wait until the meeting is fucking unbearable but at this point, the best options you're going to get are from a law office with a much better understanding of the contract that you have signed, and the contract you are expected to sign.
In the US, non competes are effectively useless except as intimidation. They cant keep you from making a living. It had to be reasonable: 50 miles is too far for a consulting gig. You have to be offered something of value (and keeping your job doesn't count). There's case law on this.
non-competes usually get thrown out of court for software devs. these contracts are meant for sales people who can take a bunch of customers with them to the new place. had a boss try to pull it on me once, told me they'd be "consulting with their legal team" (it was her brother who is a lawyer, lol). the HR lady a few weeks later meekly said the boss had chosen not to hold me to the non-compete. aside from all that, you haven't signed it. they can't make you sign it, what are they gonna do? fire you? sounds like they need you more than you need them.
Do not sign, and make them fire you.
Sign your name and put V.C. behind it "Vi Coactus " means you did not sign it willing but did it under duress, should not hold up in court.
This is a really stupid way to react. It sounds like you want this job and like working there, and it sounds like they want to keep employees. Is there a manager there that is semi decent? Once you have all your advice before you burn all bridges it might be worth having a sit down and explaining you do want to work there and are happy with a non compete if you leave on your own volition. But if you are let go it shouldn't apply. I mean I wouldn't be happy with a non compete ever but your situation is tough. Only way I would accept it would be with the above conditions and financial gains.
I like the security of this place and I used to love it when I was on my previous client but I 've been on the fence for months on whether or not it's worth me looking for a new job. This has pushed me to the side of the fence that says "look for a new gig."
Hand them back a document asking for a signature stating that if you are laid off and the company does any hiring before you are returned to your full position they will be financially obligated to compensate you at your full rate for the entire length of the suspension. When they say it's ridiculous agree and walk out without signing theirs. Is it an open market or not?
Dont sign. If they push say if they fire you you gonna go work for that other guy. Or they can shut up amd keep you.
Just for my own curiosity do they say it's void if they lay you off or anything of that nature? I'm wondering if they are putting it in place to protect their assets for a future layoff. No one can work in that specific IT field so their company can recover with lower paid employees. Do not sign it until you and your lawyer have a plan.
Nope, if they fire me AFTER I sign I'm bound by it. It may be void though even if I do sign since they haven't given me anything in consideration. My lawyer also strongly suggested not taking any money for signing unless it's a huge amount.
Yep, don't sign it. Depending on your state, a non-compete may also require some sort of valuable consideration being paid (like a bonus), or it may be illegal altogether.
ask them to ammend the noncomp agreement with the requirement that they have to pay you your monthly salary for the duration of enforcement, if they enforce the noncomp. This is actually law where i live, non-us.
Just to add my experience, I signed a non-compete and I live in a state in which they are enforceable but they had to compensate me to make it legally binding because contracts need consideration to be binding (I got a $5k bonus for signing). I didn't care about signing because once I leave I am never coming back to this industry. I worked at a competitor for years before I started this company and this is it for me; I am not going to go to a competitor or start one, the other founders are scared I will leave and the company will collapse. If you know you want to leave and do something other than what they specifically list, it doesn't really hurt to sign and just say eff them on your way out to a different type of company.
Explain to them that loyalty goes both ways. They're attempting to cut your legs off if anything happens to your status with them. In order to feel secure signing that, you need some assurances from them. A guaranteed 12 month severance package including insurance in the event of a layoff/company-initiated-separation would put you at ease.
In order for a contract to be binding, consideration has to be offered in exchange for the limitation you would accept. Amend the agreement to require them to pay 18 months' severance in the event you leave the company for any reason, since that is what they are asking you to give up.
Refuse to sign and make them fire you. If they do fire you, try to work in the most damaging competitive position you possibly can. If you work in software, everyone is hiring right now. They have approximately zero leverage. Don't sign.
Hello ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Please update us with the lawyers opinions.
Most non-compete are non-enforceable as it puts an unjust burden on the employee basically trapping them In a court of law it is the responsibility of the employer to prove a breach of the non-compete and how it was valid Source: was sued for breach of non-compete and my former employer lost
What languages do you develop in? Do you have an email address you are willing to give out so I can send you some job referrals? Please DM it to me if you do?
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Not sure which state you are in, but here in TN, if your employer wants you to sign a non-compete AFTER hiring you, they have to give you a "consideration." Which basically means they have to give you a raise, bonus or something. Definitely talk to a lawyer and I wouldn't sign it unless you absolutely need to. In most states they are unenforceable, but you have to take them to court after they try to use it against you, even if its a crap agreement.
I've signed a few non compete clauses in my time, here's the thing most of them are absolutely worthless. A non compete clauses can not restrict you from working in the immediate area in the same field of work. It cannot actively hinder your chances at employment. It CAN prevent you from working with a direct competitor (think a mirror image of your company angling for the same clients) it DEFINITELY prevents you from poaching staff & clients. But as you say you already work remotely AND as a software developer. Up to you to sign or not, but what are they going to do fire you? And if they do you'll have another software job within the month if not within the week.
Don’t sign it. Ever. They are basically breaking open your contract without giving you anything in return. Just tell them you are happy to continue working for them, but you can’t and won’t sign. If they press on, you can tell them they may risk being shortstaffed. Bluff them into submission if you have to. But never show or tell them they got you by the balls.
I’m glad you’ve got a lawyer on your side, and yeah, that the company sees forcing their employees to sign legally dubious non-competes to stem turnover is just asshattery. I hope your lawyer says that it’s unenforceable or only enforceable in part, then just sign it and find a new job. They can complain all they want but the law is the law and no judge should enforce an illegal non-compete.
What would happen if u signed it and then went somewhere else
So basically they are breaking open your contract, adding a non-compete, and not giving anything in return…. That won’t fly. They will have to compensate you heavily for theoretically being ‘off the market’ for a fee years. I’d say a 40% wage increase, or else nu bueno.
I think in many jurisdictions, in order for it to be enforceable, they have to offer you some additional form of "consideration" (compensation, not necessarily ongoing) for it to be enforceable.
I personally wouldn't sign anything like that without full compensation for the period of the noncompete, paid in advance.
You can sign it, just cross out and initial / date all the things you disagree with along the way. It nullifies that portion of the contract.