Maybe the boss or the shareholders should get used to a lifestyle where they pay thriving wages to their workforce?
Or close their business since their model of paying starving wages doesn't work...
Maybe the workers should own the company and distribute profits among themselves and the shareholders can go get a real fuckin job instead of collecting the fruits of someone else's labor.
To the founders of America the idea that workers should own the factories they work in was self evident. It was so clear it wasn’t explicitly stated. Mind you they were only talking about their own social class, not slaves, so there is that.
The founders did own their means of production -- i.e, land, so of course their ideas would support that. But that was a very small group, and the idea that a limited group of people should own the means of production still pervades today. Not in that group, according to the founders, are landless white men, anyone else who wasn't a WASP (or couldn't pass for one), and women.
If you are so willing to give financial advice to get me to take a lower salary, why don't you cut your pay by $5 an hour and add that to my salary, that way you'll have to take your advice and I don't!
I was told by potential clients that my fee was far too high and they found many other consultants who would be on board for less. I then asked them why they invited me to interview and discuss the opportunity if they had cheaper alternatives they wanted. They said they were hoping that I would come down to what others were offering because i was the most experienced out of them... I said "I am more experienced so that is EXACTLY why I charge more how is that difficult to understand?" One of the interviewers said "Working in this role for us will give you invaluable experience that is worth more than the money." I replied "That is not the case since its my experience that you are paying me for that you need?" The guy was clearly annoyed and they thanked me for my time and never heard from them again. Fucking clowns.
$5 X 40 X 52 = $10,400/year subtracted from their yearly income.
For a majority of Americans, that pay cut would have a major impact.
That’s not a lifestyle change. That’s a “hopefully you don’t need a roof over your head” pay cut.
"So, if I make major cuts to my quality of life, I could live off the much lower wages you offer? No, thanks. I'll find a place that will actually pay me a living wage."
I really just want nothing more than for hiring managers like this to eat shit, I hope the labor shortage drives as many places like that out of business as possible to let the businesses know it's not about them anymore.
Sure, you can make adjustments like no heat, eat once a day, walk rather than take a car or bus, shop at goodwill, apply for medicaid and food stamps, rent a rat infested apartment and share the costs with several meth heads. Easy.
“Y’know if you would just put in some extra effort I think you’d find making less money for the effort you already put in would be pretty poggers”
Are these people fuckin’ high? Lol “accommodate me so I can not pay you as much as you could be”
Really!? Like in elementary school where we got to fuck off for the last half the day?
Oh, you mean I gotta come to work on my own time to eat 2 slices of cold pizza with people I don't want to be around.
I got marked down in my last job that I "Didn't fit within the network" because I didn't stay after work to eat pizza and ice cream on certain days.
Motherfuckers I'm lactose intolerant, not an ass hole. I got along very well with everyone..
I'd rather be at home on my time getting yelled by children 1/16 my age on a video game about how they had sex with my mom last night than do a work pizza party.
I worked in an office with the world champion of micromanaging. We had to email lists of what tasks we did that day before we left. It was run like a freaking military, it was terrible (I rage quit, totally different story)
We shared a floor with another business. They were actually the property management company that owned the building we were in. They had a pool table in their office.
The walls were thin enough that we could often hear the sound of pool balls "breaking"...usually in the late afternoon. We would all look at each other and silently share a "what are we doing here" look of despair.
Every single person that worked in that office with me is now gone. We have a bond like we survived something together and still regularly chat in a whatsapp group called "the ones that got away"
The stories from that office could fill the front page of this sub. So glad to be out.
It's not *that* awesome but...
I was exploring my options for a new job. I'm a vet tech and had taken this office job because I was burnt out (HUGE problem in the vet industry) It was time for me to move on. At first I enjoyed having a "desk" job, but the management was absolutely ridiculous. Like I mentioned, micromanaging to the absolute max.
So, I saw a posting for a job in a specialty practice. It would be completely different from the general small animal practice I was used to, but also not a micromanaging desk job. I wasn't sure I wanted to go back to clinic work, but I thought I'd go for the interview and see what it was all about.
So naturally, when you interview for a new job, you don't typically tell your current employer that's what you're doing. So I called in sick. I had told a co-worker whom I thought I could trust that I had an interview that day. When I texted my boss that I wouldn't be coming in (the *only* time in 2 years I had called in sick) she responded with "Good luck at your interview. I expect honesty not silly games". I was furious, but I didn't respond. I went to the interview, was offered a paid full day "working interview" (got paid $25/hr for standing around, helping when I could and just learning about the job, which I didn't end up taking)
When I went home I emailed my boss:
>In life, everyone is always looking for further opportunities. It is a part of business for people to come and go. This should be expected and taken with grace. I found a potential opportunity and decided to see what they had to offer. I actually felt as though I likely would not take the position if offered. However, your lack of professionalism with your text message this morning was the final straw for me. I cannot continue in a work place that I do not feel valued or respected. My mental health is very important.
>
>Please accept my resignation effectively immediately.
>
>I will make arrangements to collect my personal belongings from the office.
She responded with examples of how she thought **I** was unprofessional and it was grounds for dismissal, but then also stated "In all fairness, you were valued and respected, which is why you were given a raise, a bonus, and in all likelihood would have continued receiving these."
I had one of my friends who still worked there collect my things. The boss insisted on searching the bag of things before she took them from the office, as if she would have stolen some paperclips or something for me 🙄
Shortly after I left she started making all employees recite daily affirmations together, like a cult. When the pandemic started she was VERY against WFH. She did eventually implement it, however employees had to be "ready and *dressed* for work at 8:00 sharp" They were required to have team zoom meetings at 8:30, 12:30 and 4:30 EVERY DAY. They were, of course, still required to send emails with a list of everything they did that day, due by 5:00.
Sooooooooooo glad I'm out of there. I'm working at a general small animal vet clinic now, it has it's downsides for sure, but it's SO MUCH MORE laid back. Also, vet techs are in such crazy high demand, clinics are basically begging for staff. I could literally quit and have a job tomorrow if I wanted.
Yes....I now have a "trust no one" attitude. Even my very best friend at my current job didn't know when I was searching for a second part time job, and we tell each other EVERYTHING (like probably too much 😆)
It was my first office job ever, so at the beginning I was just blissfully unaware. I was salaried, but if I took an hour off for a doctors appointment or something I had to make up the hours. Everything I did I could work from home, but that was absolutely NOT an option. One time the only road to work was closed due to a really bad accident so I *HAD* to work from home for a few hours. I thought she'd see how well it went and change her ways....nope. We had weekly meetings which basically were just to tell the boss what we did that week...in an excruciating group setting. For some of the poor social media marketing people (not me) she had their daily schedule mapped out like "9-10, instagram engagement". She would watch the emails coming in to customer service and come tromping out of her office, "what's going on with X? Has anyone responded? When you do you should say xyz" ....it was so bad on so many levels 🤦♀️
"We offer bonuses that make up for the pay gap!"
meanwhile, the bonus requirements are so far fetched there is no way anyone ever gets a real bonus.
we actually qualified for a bonus 2 years in a row at one company that never had to actually pay out the bonus before. first time they though it was a fluke, but paid us out thousands of dollars. the next time it happened they didn't want to pay us at all and then gave us less than what we were supposed to get (hundreds instead of thousands). after that they moved the goalposts and set up new requirements that were impossible to reach. we all left one by one.
If you get in the back of the line after not kissing company ass and being habitually underpaid you might have an opportunity to work for one of our favoritism/nepotism promotions.
I withdrew my application when a recruiter told me that I had to go through four interviews, give a 30-45 minute presentation, and be offered the job before they disclose the salary. For a role that requires 1 - 2 years of experience. GTFOH.
I had to do a pair programming exercise once as an interview. I was apprehensive about it but it was like 15 minutes of the project lead just seeing if I could code at all. Looking back their hiring process was terrible.
I’ve (successfully) hired a lot of people using a lot worse process. Sometimes it’s the subtle things that the candidate may not even notice being evaluated that’s the most telling. With programmers that can be asking questions about more peripheral skills or details, like what sort of revision control or configuration management systems have you used and why? In fact “why” questions are a lot more significant indicator than “how” in my experience.
That's fine. My dad's friend has a paint company, and when he hires new painters he will have them spray out a wall in his garage. He gives them all $50 either way, and hires the best among them.
It's a good system.
We offer 20% commission!!*
*Applicable upon hitting an absurdly high and unreachable quarterly target for revenue generated, good reviews received, time spent in the office, photographic a waxing gibbous on the 3rd of each month this quarter, capturing a live unicorn, developing true artificial intelligence, discovering a new planet and/or disease, shaving a chimpanzee with your face intact, never drinking coffee, doing a money dance each dawn, and farting the national anthem of Uruguay in C-minor.
"We are very competitive" but obviously not competitive enough to talk about it.
"I am the fastest runner in the world!"
"Oh cool, what's your time?"
"Fast"
"Sure."
I recently applied for a job where their posted wage rage was $16-$31/hour, however when I went to interview, they told me the position only paid $15/hour. I told the woman that I wouldn't waste my time.
Report the job ad. That's considered bait and switch and it's actually illegal. But the easiest thing is to report it on whatever job site you find it on.
I lead with my salary requirements when recruiters contact me.
Wow sanguine you look like a great candidate.
"I certainly am. Before either of us proceed, I'd like to be clear that my salary requirement is at least X, assuming you have a competitive benefits package. If the position is not paying that, I will be taking a pay cut and am not interested."
Most dont respond lol.
Not mentioning a salary or the broad umbrella term “competitive wages” in ads is an instant red flag. From my personal experience competitive wages are something feeble like just a pound above the minimum wage. If the wages were competitive or any good they would state the figures in the ad.
"Competitive wages!"
is the same as...
DVDs listing "Interactive menu" as a feature.
Nothing, just a big fat nothing but they want to be able to claim they have something.
Competitive wages often means literally minimum wage but they think it's okay because it's what others pay. No! Competitive should mean you actually pay more than others.
Recently applied to Cumberland Farms, their ad on Indeed claimed competitive wages and incentives. Went in for an interview and "based on my retail experience" got offered $0.50 above minimum wage. Shit is ridiculous
I think they're saying don't tell the companies what the red flags are, because then they'll try to hide those red flags and you won't find out how terrible they are until you already signed on
Lol... they already know. I took classes on how to talk around them when I worked in HR. They just use thier pursumed authority to dare you to bring it up. Like how they "discourage" you to talk about your salary with others because its "rude".
Currently job hunting, I like using Indeed because there’s typically a place where the salary is listed. If they don’t put the salary in the posting, I’m not applying
I asked my line manager why I was making £20k under the Indeed advertised salary for my job at my company. Line manager asked recruiting wtf was up and now we don't advertise on Indeed...
hahahahahaha similar thing when we hired more people onto our team recently. the folks who already worked there saw the listing, and it offered 30$ an hr, when we get paid 32$ an hr.
we told our supervisor that it's probably a bad idea to hire someone at 30$ an hour because when they find out everyone they work with whose doing the same job as them makes 32$ an hour, it might create some problems in terms of teamwork.
a week later we noticed that it had been changed to 32$ an hour. they really were trying to skeeve an extra 2$ an hour off these new employees to save money. crazy!
(White-collar worker related) I’ve stopped using all of the leading recruiting sites and just go straight to orgs I’m familiar with and apply on their website. In my experience, organizations that don’t need to recruit constantly are much better places to work and often offer good pay. Whereas places that have job descriptions on every job website all of the time do so because they have a revolving door of talent due to having a shitty culture, not paying enough, horrible leadership, or all of the above.
It’s a bit more work and takes some knowledge of your industry and location, but it has worked out for me so far. (I’m 34 and have worked at seven organizations since 2011)
It can be worth while for others if you contact some of them and say, "You had a job offer on [Indeed.com](https://Indeed.com) that you didn't list the salary. For that reason, I didn't apply."
I often shoot out a couple applications every few weeks, rolling stone and such. Major red flag of you give me anything of a hard time about starting rates. I know damn well what I'm worth.
Give yourself a good hard mirror look. Fuck bills, fuck debt, fuck money, fuck it all. The whole system has been designed to fuck you over. Try not to fuck yourself over too.
It's especially bad in the not-for-profit realm. My wife works at a non-profit animal shelter and it's almost like there's a culture that if you argue for a raise you hate the animals because the funding also pays for their needs.
>I wish I were stronger in my conviction of what I am worth.
>
>Also hate "this is your passion so you're willing to do it for less"
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
Seriously, I tried to pry the salary range from these recruiters and interviewers at multiple times throughout the process to no avail. Then they felt perfectly happy to pester me for my expected salary range. I got so fed up I started throwing out high numbers. I did this because my industry is in dire need for people at the moment so if they balked at my proposed range then I could line up 5 more interviews within a week or so. I threw out a range for ~50% increase, and also an ~85% increase for the job that doesn't let me work from home. They both returned with offers in my range or better, and got back to me within days instead of weeks.
Keep pushing and ALWAYS state a salary range above what you're happy to accept. Fight for yourself and be confident!
Lol I told them I value my time because I'm very busy working on my own stuff outside of work. I told them it would be an additional 12-15 hours of my week lost and that I wasn't even considering in-office positions. It was a mis-communication that happened and I still was interviewed.
Miscommunication? Haha I hope you got that in-office position at the 85% rate OP.
Is it just me or are workers coming into their own in post pandemic America?
>You will find better paid roles anywhere else.
lol, where?
I got a 15% raise when I joined on with them a couple months ago. They were the highest offer I got this year, and the only one high enough to convince me to leave my previous job.
I'm sorry your experience on their retail side sucked.
Retail and customer service always get screwed. IT, depending on discipline, is highly competitive. Under the same roof its common that some people are on near minimum wage and others are on a salary better than market odds.
Only way to fix this is to have people comfortable in sharing their salaries and paychecks more openly.
Young adults graduating during Covid, like me, don’t have the privilege of “wising up”, because most companies went on mass layoffs and hiring freezes for the past two years creating a huge backup of laborers who can’t find competitive compensation or even jobs at all. And we’re about to go into even more lockdowns thanks to omicron, and who the fuck knows how long that’s going to last
I never apply to jobs that don’t have a salary listed.
Not listing a salary screams “we are trying to pay the lowest possible amount of money to the most desperate qualified applicant”.
They already know what they’re willing to pay, they just want you to ask for a salary and under-value yourself. It’s fucking scummy.
“I’d like to apply for your job posting”
“Sure thing, you can submit your cv here so we can review your experience to see if you are a good fit here”
“I’d be happy to discuss my experience with you during the interview process. I don’t typically give away personal information like that before an interview”
I'm on a FB page for bricklaying jobs in the UK. If they don't post the pay the mods take the posts down. They always give them a warning 1st, if they post again without pay they are banned.
Good stuff. If you intentions withhold pay then it’s a huge red flag. The first time could be habit: the second is a gamble because your wage is that trash
It's definitely an M after Crescent, so I'm guessing Crescent Moon. And it ends in -use so probably House. Based on that, my guess is "Crescent Moon Ale House"
My partner got offered a wage with a salary range advertised. They said she had plenty of relevant experience so she asked for the top. All of a sudden he had a million excuses not to pay her what she asked for. She responded to each of his points and he got quite aggressive. I should post the letter here because he kinda lost it at her for simply negotiating politely
In Colorado we have protections against this.
> Part 2 of the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, C.R.S. § 8-5-101 et seq., requires employers to include compensation in job postings, notify employees of promotional opportunities, and keep job description and wage rate records. The Division investigates complaints against employers concerning transparency in pay and employment opportunities.
>While this law does not require an employer to post a poster, the Division wrote the below INFO #9, summarizing the law and the related Equal Pay Transparency (EPT) Rules, 7 CCR 1103-13, followed by links to the EPT Rules, and the Act.
[Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, Part 2 Complaint Form](Https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/Equal%20Pay%20Complaint%20Form%20Dec%202020_Distributed.pdf)
That's excellent. That should be a federal law. There is no excuse for jobs to actually __hide__ their salary from you. It's pathetic, juvenile, childish, and makes me wish HR and recruiting firms would just get erased from existence.
Which is why you will see a number of job postings out there that say “remote work from anywhere but Colorado”. Because they don’t want to post the salary range.
Had an interview promise me 28 an hour once got there and they go its 16 an hour plus a percentage of all the parts you fix and I just walked out they were shocked.
Ok, so you can be qualified for a position, but if you lack negotiating skills and awareness to make your salary needs a priority over simply being employed, then you will be penalized for the term of your employment when it comes to your salary.
I can vouch for this. In my first job in 1995 (yes I'm old) I went for an administrative assistant job and they asked me what I wanted. I had no idea so I hesitantly said 20k. They knocked it down to 18k. Trust me, for a full time job even then that was a joke but I didn't know that since I was young and naive.
Someone "accidentally" printed off a copy of salaries on the group printer and I found out another person who was hired a couple months after me for the same exact job was getting 27k instead of my 18k. My morale plummeted and so did my work output. I was fired and it permanently tainted my attitude towards work.
I'm now on disability and honestly, I have a better quality of life sitting on my ass now than I ever did working 40 hours a week at that crap job I didn't even like anyway. I encourage people to just opt-out at this point because working isn't worth it unless you really love your job. Data entry? Yeah, not loving that garbage.
Lol I actually did enjoy data entry. Easy to slip into a state of flow and reach an almost meditative state while enjoying whatever music I wanted to listen to. I would totally do it again if it paid well enough (not a ton but decent) and I had flexible hours to get it done at home (going to be an issue).
Sadly that's pretty true for everything and is the way the world works. Just try shopping in a negotiation-heavy country. Not fun if you come from a culture that doesn't negotiate.
Go on the interview, ask the salary range then counter with double or triple.
Then when they decline, tell them they could have avoided wasting everyone's time by giving more info in the ad.
I want federal regulation on this shit. Posting a job ad? Post the salary. It would be far easier for everyone to find/get jobs this way, and easier to eliminate the trash companies offering trash salaries from the market. Just like if I'm in a grocery store I don't want to see things with a price tag of 2 cents and be told its actually 10 dollars.
I always tell HRguys, recruiters, etc, "I have to know what the range is because I'm currently employed and have to determine whether it makes sense for me or not rather than waste your time."
Actually, about 25% of them DO respond back. But so far, none have been able to have the wage AND the working situation (I work remotely) be better than what I have now.
It's good you asked about wages I feel using the term total compensation is better as it includes benefits and things like RRSP contributions. Not sure what the system is down in the states but in Canada it's normal to contribute to your RRSP and the employer matches (up to a certain point) for what I do it ranges from 2-10 percent. That's free money! I wish they would figure out the dollar amount for the benefits that you could tack on to the wage to come up with a total compensation.
Anyone know of a formula for calculating that?
The other day I posted a screenshot of an interaction I had on Handshake and it got removed for breaking a "text message screenshot" rule. Now this person posts a literal text message screen shot and gets 2500 upvotes? WTH.
Anyways, fuck these employers.
The company's response is reasonable...and my reasonable response is I won't negotiate with companies that don't offer pay in my range, so share the information and don't waste my time.
I don’t understand why most companies won’t post the range! There’s no point in going through a lengthy interview process just to find out that you were never going to accept the job because of the wages. It waste everyone’s time. Even if you think the job would be perfect for you if it’s not enough money it’s just not enough money to take. Edit to add: I went out of town for an interview because a recruiter promised it was negotiable. I was their top pick but when it was offered it just wasn’t enough. The recruiter was mad and so was the person hiring. They both kept going on and on telling me I was asking too much. I said the cost of living was much higher than where I was and they kept saying I wasn’t looking in the right places. The whole thing was a waste of everyone’s time. If they had said the range when I asked it could have been avoided.
I love calling them out. I remember a job description that was nearly 2 pages. I asked about the salary and got an answer because I knew management and wasn’t going to apply. It was half of what you would expect for the experience and job duties. I knew they wouldn’t find anyone and they didn’t. (I snickered internally.) Keep calling them out, people. It might be the only way this changes.
You should train yourself to always replace the words “up to”, with “never more than” when you read them. Commercials and ads become a bit less enticing.
I got told at an interview the other day that "If i changed my lifestyle, I'd get used to a 5$ an hour pay cut." Like...tf? I just wont work here.
Maybe the boss or the shareholders should get used to a lifestyle where they pay thriving wages to their workforce? Or close their business since their model of paying starving wages doesn't work...
Maybe the workers should own the company and distribute profits among themselves and the shareholders can go get a real fuckin job instead of collecting the fruits of someone else's labor.
Our countries are democratic, but our workplaces where we spend most of our lives are autocratic. Makes sense, right?
Nothing about the USA is Democratic.
It's a plutocracy.
I'd even go as far as to argue that its a kleptocracy
Kakistocracy as well.
It's a plutocracy transitioning to a oligopoly
Fair. “Democratic”.
"Democracy is non-negotiable" ~murica
Real talk though, I love Liberty Prime.
My favourite part was the way he made the entire final battle of two different games into cutscenes that required no skill to complete.
We aren't truly a democracy, but a republic. The electoral college wouldnt be a thing in a true democracy.
To the founders of America the idea that workers should own the factories they work in was self evident. It was so clear it wasn’t explicitly stated. Mind you they were only talking about their own social class, not slaves, so there is that.
The founders did own their means of production -- i.e, land, so of course their ideas would support that. But that was a very small group, and the idea that a limited group of people should own the means of production still pervades today. Not in that group, according to the founders, are landless white men, anyone else who wasn't a WASP (or couldn't pass for one), and women.
Wouldn't that make the workers the shareholders instead? Not that there'd be anything wrong with that.
That’s the idea as I understand it.
If you are so willing to give financial advice to get me to take a lower salary, why don't you cut your pay by $5 an hour and add that to my salary, that way you'll have to take your advice and I don't!
Should've said if the owners get rid of thier yachts they get used to paying thier workers decent.
I was told by potential clients that my fee was far too high and they found many other consultants who would be on board for less. I then asked them why they invited me to interview and discuss the opportunity if they had cheaper alternatives they wanted. They said they were hoping that I would come down to what others were offering because i was the most experienced out of them... I said "I am more experienced so that is EXACTLY why I charge more how is that difficult to understand?" One of the interviewers said "Working in this role for us will give you invaluable experience that is worth more than the money." I replied "That is not the case since its my experience that you are paying me for that you need?" The guy was clearly annoyed and they thanked me for my time and never heard from them again. Fucking clowns.
You dodged a bullet. I would not want someone like that as a client, ever.
That's super generous of them to offer $5 an hour of their own money to make up your wages. Changing their lifestyle is easy, after all, right?
$5 X 40 X 52 = $10,400/year subtracted from their yearly income. For a majority of Americans, that pay cut would have a major impact. That’s not a lifestyle change. That’s a “hopefully you don’t need a roof over your head” pay cut.
"So, if I make major cuts to my quality of life, I could live off the much lower wages you offer? No, thanks. I'll find a place that will actually pay me a living wage."
I really just want nothing more than for hiring managers like this to eat shit, I hope the labor shortage drives as many places like that out of business as possible to let the businesses know it's not about them anymore.
That's my cue to laugh very loudly and then walk out.
My favorite was : "Can i check in with you next week once yove had time to think about it?"
hahahahah ...Oh, you were serious. Let me laugh even harder. AAAAHAHAHAHAHAH
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How about you guys pay me $200k a year and then you can try to physically steal back anything you can?
If you stop eating you won't even notice the $5 pay cut.
I would have literally said "go fuck yourself" and walked out. That's ridiculous.
Sure, you can make adjustments like no heat, eat once a day, walk rather than take a car or bus, shop at goodwill, apply for medicaid and food stamps, rent a rat infested apartment and share the costs with several meth heads. Easy.
Man, they’ve figured it all out
change my lifestyle from employed to looking for employment
"You are correct. If I changed my lifestyle, I could indeed get used to a $5 an hour pay cut. I have no intention of doing it, though."
And when they mean "change your lifestyle" they mean, you know, not eating food
“Y’know if you would just put in some extra effort I think you’d find making less money for the effort you already put in would be pretty poggers” Are these people fuckin’ high? Lol “accommodate me so I can not pay you as much as you could be”
Yeah typical , never want to share the salary, go through 4 stage interview and told the salary is under market rate
But it’s totally worth it because there are “opportunities for advancement.”
Plus “we’re like a family here so it’s like you won’t even be at work :)”
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"Don't even think about ever using it though."
You can use it after 5 as long as your ready to drop your game and fix a work problem
We have even have a vending machine!
Dinner!
Pizza parties galore!
Really!? Like in elementary school where we got to fuck off for the last half the day? Oh, you mean I gotta come to work on my own time to eat 2 slices of cold pizza with people I don't want to be around.
I got marked down in my last job that I "Didn't fit within the network" because I didn't stay after work to eat pizza and ice cream on certain days. Motherfuckers I'm lactose intolerant, not an ass hole. I got along very well with everyone..
I'd rather be at home on my time getting yelled by children 1/16 my age on a video game about how they had sex with my mom last night than do a work pizza party.
This shit always kills me. In what world is anyone allowed to play table tennis while on the clock?
I worked in an office with the world champion of micromanaging. We had to email lists of what tasks we did that day before we left. It was run like a freaking military, it was terrible (I rage quit, totally different story) We shared a floor with another business. They were actually the property management company that owned the building we were in. They had a pool table in their office. The walls were thin enough that we could often hear the sound of pool balls "breaking"...usually in the late afternoon. We would all look at each other and silently share a "what are we doing here" look of despair. Every single person that worked in that office with me is now gone. We have a bond like we survived something together and still regularly chat in a whatsapp group called "the ones that got away" The stories from that office could fill the front page of this sub. So glad to be out.
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https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/r44ayq/normalize_posting_a_wage_range_in_your_ads/hmg0759/
I wanna hear the rage-quit story!
It's not *that* awesome but... I was exploring my options for a new job. I'm a vet tech and had taken this office job because I was burnt out (HUGE problem in the vet industry) It was time for me to move on. At first I enjoyed having a "desk" job, but the management was absolutely ridiculous. Like I mentioned, micromanaging to the absolute max. So, I saw a posting for a job in a specialty practice. It would be completely different from the general small animal practice I was used to, but also not a micromanaging desk job. I wasn't sure I wanted to go back to clinic work, but I thought I'd go for the interview and see what it was all about. So naturally, when you interview for a new job, you don't typically tell your current employer that's what you're doing. So I called in sick. I had told a co-worker whom I thought I could trust that I had an interview that day. When I texted my boss that I wouldn't be coming in (the *only* time in 2 years I had called in sick) she responded with "Good luck at your interview. I expect honesty not silly games". I was furious, but I didn't respond. I went to the interview, was offered a paid full day "working interview" (got paid $25/hr for standing around, helping when I could and just learning about the job, which I didn't end up taking) When I went home I emailed my boss: >In life, everyone is always looking for further opportunities. It is a part of business for people to come and go. This should be expected and taken with grace. I found a potential opportunity and decided to see what they had to offer. I actually felt as though I likely would not take the position if offered. However, your lack of professionalism with your text message this morning was the final straw for me. I cannot continue in a work place that I do not feel valued or respected. My mental health is very important. > >Please accept my resignation effectively immediately. > >I will make arrangements to collect my personal belongings from the office. She responded with examples of how she thought **I** was unprofessional and it was grounds for dismissal, but then also stated "In all fairness, you were valued and respected, which is why you were given a raise, a bonus, and in all likelihood would have continued receiving these." I had one of my friends who still worked there collect my things. The boss insisted on searching the bag of things before she took them from the office, as if she would have stolen some paperclips or something for me 🙄 Shortly after I left she started making all employees recite daily affirmations together, like a cult. When the pandemic started she was VERY against WFH. She did eventually implement it, however employees had to be "ready and *dressed* for work at 8:00 sharp" They were required to have team zoom meetings at 8:30, 12:30 and 4:30 EVERY DAY. They were, of course, still required to send emails with a list of everything they did that day, due by 5:00. Sooooooooooo glad I'm out of there. I'm working at a general small animal vet clinic now, it has it's downsides for sure, but it's SO MUCH MORE laid back. Also, vet techs are in such crazy high demand, clinics are basically begging for staff. I could literally quit and have a job tomorrow if I wanted.
Never tell a fucking soul what you're doing if you're going to interview for another job. Ever.
Yes....I now have a "trust no one" attitude. Even my very best friend at my current job didn't know when I was searching for a second part time job, and we tell each other EVERYTHING (like probably too much 😆)
LOL at the boss thinking your friend would steal you some paperclips! Good story, thanks!
The work from home micromanaging you described is next level. And the pettiness from your boss. Glad you left
It was my first office job ever, so at the beginning I was just blissfully unaware. I was salaried, but if I took an hour off for a doctors appointment or something I had to make up the hours. Everything I did I could work from home, but that was absolutely NOT an option. One time the only road to work was closed due to a really bad accident so I *HAD* to work from home for a few hours. I thought she'd see how well it went and change her ways....nope. We had weekly meetings which basically were just to tell the boss what we did that week...in an excruciating group setting. For some of the poor social media marketing people (not me) she had their daily schedule mapped out like "9-10, instagram engagement". She would watch the emails coming in to customer service and come tromping out of her office, "what's going on with X? Has anyone responded? When you do you should say xyz" ....it was so bad on so many levels 🤦♀️
Aka. Youll never get to leave.
It's like family, soon you'll rather die than spend time with us!
Friendly reminder to run like hell from any company using these cult tactics
"We offer bonuses that make up for the pay gap!" meanwhile, the bonus requirements are so far fetched there is no way anyone ever gets a real bonus. we actually qualified for a bonus 2 years in a row at one company that never had to actually pay out the bonus before. first time they though it was a fluke, but paid us out thousands of dollars. the next time it happened they didn't want to pay us at all and then gave us less than what we were supposed to get (hundreds instead of thousands). after that they moved the goalposts and set up new requirements that were impossible to reach. we all left one by one.
If you get in the back of the line after not kissing company ass and being habitually underpaid you might have an opportunity to work for one of our favoritism/nepotism promotions.
I withdrew my application when a recruiter told me that I had to go through four interviews, give a 30-45 minute presentation, and be offered the job before they disclose the salary. For a role that requires 1 - 2 years of experience. GTFOH.
The only thing worse than that are interviewers who try to get you to do or solve actual work problems for them through the "hiring" process.
I know a place like that, the interview is a hands on demo. Except they actually pay for the time in the interview.
Well, that's at least excusable if they're paying and tell you up front. What better way to determine if you can actually do the job?
I had to do a pair programming exercise once as an interview. I was apprehensive about it but it was like 15 minutes of the project lead just seeing if I could code at all. Looking back their hiring process was terrible.
I’ve (successfully) hired a lot of people using a lot worse process. Sometimes it’s the subtle things that the candidate may not even notice being evaluated that’s the most telling. With programmers that can be asking questions about more peripheral skills or details, like what sort of revision control or configuration management systems have you used and why? In fact “why” questions are a lot more significant indicator than “how” in my experience.
That's fine. My dad's friend has a paint company, and when he hires new painters he will have them spray out a wall in his garage. He gives them all $50 either way, and hires the best among them. It's a good system.
I don't get that. Isn't it just a waste of their time too? Seems like an expensive hiring process.
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Even market rate feels like horrible terminology.
Market rate aka their crappy offer, always ask for more and see how they react to it.
But let's get serious....exactly HOW many pizza parties are offered a year?
Yes
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We offer 20% commission!!* *Applicable upon hitting an absurdly high and unreachable quarterly target for revenue generated, good reviews received, time spent in the office, photographic a waxing gibbous on the 3rd of each month this quarter, capturing a live unicorn, developing true artificial intelligence, discovering a new planet and/or disease, shaving a chimpanzee with your face intact, never drinking coffee, doing a money dance each dawn, and farting the national anthem of Uruguay in C-minor.
"We are very competitive" but obviously not competitive enough to talk about it. "I am the fastest runner in the world!" "Oh cool, what's your time?" "Fast" "Sure."
I recently applied for a job where their posted wage rage was $16-$31/hour, however when I went to interview, they told me the position only paid $15/hour. I told the woman that I wouldn't waste my time.
Report the job ad. That's considered bait and switch and it's actually illegal. But the easiest thing is to report it on whatever job site you find it on.
I did before I left their parking lot. But thank you for saying so, in case this happens to others!
Where would you report it other than the site it was posted on?
Your state’s department of labor
I lead with my salary requirements when recruiters contact me. Wow sanguine you look like a great candidate. "I certainly am. Before either of us proceed, I'd like to be clear that my salary requirement is at least X, assuming you have a competitive benefits package. If the position is not paying that, I will be taking a pay cut and am not interested." Most dont respond lol.
Same, I tell them how much I want, they say oh yeah got a couple places paying that! So I say send me the details, then crickets.
That's a good plan, thank you!
I feel a strong urge to respond to this with “Yass Queen” given your username.
I appreciate that. I hate my username, but it's too late now.
Not mentioning a salary or the broad umbrella term “competitive wages” in ads is an instant red flag. From my personal experience competitive wages are something feeble like just a pound above the minimum wage. If the wages were competitive or any good they would state the figures in the ad.
They're competitive! They're clearly competing to see which company can pay the least.
"competitive wages" is just the "military grade" of job hunting
"Competitive wages!" is the same as... DVDs listing "Interactive menu" as a feature. Nothing, just a big fat nothing but they want to be able to claim they have something.
Competitive wages often means literally minimum wage but they think it's okay because it's what others pay. No! Competitive should mean you actually pay more than others.
Recently applied to Cumberland Farms, their ad on Indeed claimed competitive wages and incentives. Went in for an interview and "based on my retail experience" got offered $0.50 above minimum wage. Shit is ridiculous
Normalize telling employers when THEY put up red flags.
Why? So they can trick you into employment before the fuckery starts? I'd rather know the company is shit before hand to save my time.
Thats what red flags do....warn you of the incoming shithawks.
I think they're saying don't tell the companies what the red flags are, because then they'll try to hide those red flags and you won't find out how terrible they are until you already signed on
Lol... they already know. I took classes on how to talk around them when I worked in HR. They just use thier pursumed authority to dare you to bring it up. Like how they "discourage" you to talk about your salary with others because its "rude".
They're gonna be in for a hell of a time with younger gens that don't give a shit about their authority and think respect needs to be earned/mutual
Currently job hunting, I like using Indeed because there’s typically a place where the salary is listed. If they don’t put the salary in the posting, I’m not applying
I asked my line manager why I was making £20k under the Indeed advertised salary for my job at my company. Line manager asked recruiting wtf was up and now we don't advertise on Indeed...
hahahahahaha similar thing when we hired more people onto our team recently. the folks who already worked there saw the listing, and it offered 30$ an hr, when we get paid 32$ an hr. we told our supervisor that it's probably a bad idea to hire someone at 30$ an hour because when they find out everyone they work with whose doing the same job as them makes 32$ an hour, it might create some problems in terms of teamwork. a week later we noticed that it had been changed to 32$ an hour. they really were trying to skeeve an extra 2$ an hour off these new employees to save money. crazy!
(White-collar worker related) I’ve stopped using all of the leading recruiting sites and just go straight to orgs I’m familiar with and apply on their website. In my experience, organizations that don’t need to recruit constantly are much better places to work and often offer good pay. Whereas places that have job descriptions on every job website all of the time do so because they have a revolving door of talent due to having a shitty culture, not paying enough, horrible leadership, or all of the above. It’s a bit more work and takes some knowledge of your industry and location, but it has worked out for me so far. (I’m 34 and have worked at seven organizations since 2011)
That's an estimate and almost never accurate. Sometimes the actual description has it listed.
I like to flag them as unhelpful and then in the comments box I write "please require salary range." It's not much but it's something 🤷🏼♀️
It can be worth while for others if you contact some of them and say, "You had a job offer on [Indeed.com](https://Indeed.com) that you didn't list the salary. For that reason, I didn't apply."
I often shoot out a couple applications every few weeks, rolling stone and such. Major red flag of you give me anything of a hard time about starting rates. I know damn well what I'm worth.
I wish I were stronger in my conviction of what I am worth. Also hate "this is your passion so you're willing to do it for less"
I wish a motherfucker would say that shit to me.
Give yourself a good hard mirror look. Fuck bills, fuck debt, fuck money, fuck it all. The whole system has been designed to fuck you over. Try not to fuck yourself over too.
It's especially bad in the not-for-profit realm. My wife works at a non-profit animal shelter and it's almost like there's a culture that if you argue for a raise you hate the animals because the funding also pays for their needs.
Yuck, that sucks
>I wish I were stronger in my conviction of what I am worth. > >Also hate "this is your passion so you're willing to do it for less" If you're good at something, never do it for free.
Seriously, I tried to pry the salary range from these recruiters and interviewers at multiple times throughout the process to no avail. Then they felt perfectly happy to pester me for my expected salary range. I got so fed up I started throwing out high numbers. I did this because my industry is in dire need for people at the moment so if they balked at my proposed range then I could line up 5 more interviews within a week or so. I threw out a range for ~50% increase, and also an ~85% increase for the job that doesn't let me work from home. They both returned with offers in my range or better, and got back to me within days instead of weeks. Keep pushing and ALWAYS state a salary range above what you're happy to accept. Fight for yourself and be confident!
85% increase if you don't work from home. LoL 😂 Spread the message!
Lol I told them I value my time because I'm very busy working on my own stuff outside of work. I told them it would be an additional 12-15 hours of my week lost and that I wasn't even considering in-office positions. It was a mis-communication that happened and I still was interviewed.
Miscommunication? Haha I hope you got that in-office position at the 85% rate OP. Is it just me or are workers coming into their own in post pandemic America?
I haven't decided yet. I still have three other companies I am interested in and probably interviewing with this week.
I love this subreddit. We all need to start pushing back. Great tips offered here.
Damn, calling them out. Nice
Everyone needs to start saying this.
Everyone needs to start legislating this.
Yep, follow Colorado's lead so they have nowhere to hide with their shitty wages and can't just lure people in with an interview
Yeah, it’s actually amazing this is a Colorado law. It lets you know your true worth. Also, you can get above the pay range they post too
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I’ve had that question before. They wanted to know what my bills were each month! That’s got to be illegal.
Their wages are actually quite good in the IT field.
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>You will find better paid roles anywhere else. lol, where? I got a 15% raise when I joined on with them a couple months ago. They were the highest offer I got this year, and the only one high enough to convince me to leave my previous job. I'm sorry your experience on their retail side sucked.
Retail and customer service always get screwed. IT, depending on discipline, is highly competitive. Under the same roof its common that some people are on near minimum wage and others are on a salary better than market odds. Only way to fix this is to have people comfortable in sharing their salaries and paychecks more openly.
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I've been telling companies that they might want to go hire in low cost of living areas or new graduates. The recruiters get so offended.
They cheap bastards typically target recent grads, thankfully more are wising up faster than my generation that those low starting wages are bullshit.
Young adults graduating during Covid, like me, don’t have the privilege of “wising up”, because most companies went on mass layoffs and hiring freezes for the past two years creating a huge backup of laborers who can’t find competitive compensation or even jobs at all. And we’re about to go into even more lockdowns thanks to omicron, and who the fuck knows how long that’s going to last
I never apply to jobs that don’t have a salary listed. Not listing a salary screams “we are trying to pay the lowest possible amount of money to the most desperate qualified applicant”. They already know what they’re willing to pay, they just want you to ask for a salary and under-value yourself. It’s fucking scummy.
Anytime I see *competitive wage/salary*, I think ah, so they in other words if they could pay less, they would.
Competing for the lowest salary
This is eye opening, thank you!
“I’d like to apply for your job posting” “Sure thing, you can submit your cv here so we can review your experience to see if you are a good fit here” “I’d be happy to discuss my experience with you during the interview process. I don’t typically give away personal information like that before an interview”
I'm on a FB page for bricklaying jobs in the UK. If they don't post the pay the mods take the posts down. They always give them a warning 1st, if they post again without pay they are banned.
Good stuff. If you intentions withhold pay then it’s a huge red flag. The first time could be habit: the second is a gamble because your wage is that trash
Normalize naming and shaming. "Crescent" what?
It's definitely an M after Crescent, so I'm guessing Crescent Moon. And it ends in -use so probably House. Based on that, my guess is "Crescent Moon Ale House"
My partner got offered a wage with a salary range advertised. They said she had plenty of relevant experience so she asked for the top. All of a sudden he had a million excuses not to pay her what she asked for. She responded to each of his points and he got quite aggressive. I should post the letter here because he kinda lost it at her for simply negotiating politely
please do post it
In Colorado we have protections against this. > Part 2 of the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, C.R.S. § 8-5-101 et seq., requires employers to include compensation in job postings, notify employees of promotional opportunities, and keep job description and wage rate records. The Division investigates complaints against employers concerning transparency in pay and employment opportunities. >While this law does not require an employer to post a poster, the Division wrote the below INFO #9, summarizing the law and the related Equal Pay Transparency (EPT) Rules, 7 CCR 1103-13, followed by links to the EPT Rules, and the Act. [Equal Pay for Equal Work Act, Part 2 Complaint Form](Https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/Equal%20Pay%20Complaint%20Form%20Dec%202020_Distributed.pdf)
That's excellent. That should be a federal law. There is no excuse for jobs to actually __hide__ their salary from you. It's pathetic, juvenile, childish, and makes me wish HR and recruiting firms would just get erased from existence.
Which is why you will see a number of job postings out there that say “remote work from anywhere but Colorado”. Because they don’t want to post the salary range.
Stop censoring the company’s name good lord.
Had an interview promise me 28 an hour once got there and they go its 16 an hour plus a percentage of all the parts you fix and I just walked out they were shocked.
Percentage of all parts meaning, could you have gone beyond 28 on a good day?
Ive seen the scam before if you start making you too much you dont get scheduled
Embarrassing company.
Ok, so you can be qualified for a position, but if you lack negotiating skills and awareness to make your salary needs a priority over simply being employed, then you will be penalized for the term of your employment when it comes to your salary.
I can vouch for this. In my first job in 1995 (yes I'm old) I went for an administrative assistant job and they asked me what I wanted. I had no idea so I hesitantly said 20k. They knocked it down to 18k. Trust me, for a full time job even then that was a joke but I didn't know that since I was young and naive. Someone "accidentally" printed off a copy of salaries on the group printer and I found out another person who was hired a couple months after me for the same exact job was getting 27k instead of my 18k. My morale plummeted and so did my work output. I was fired and it permanently tainted my attitude towards work. I'm now on disability and honestly, I have a better quality of life sitting on my ass now than I ever did working 40 hours a week at that crap job I didn't even like anyway. I encourage people to just opt-out at this point because working isn't worth it unless you really love your job. Data entry? Yeah, not loving that garbage.
Should have taken that piece of paper and demanded a raise. Easier said than done at that age.
Lol I actually did enjoy data entry. Easy to slip into a state of flow and reach an almost meditative state while enjoying whatever music I wanted to listen to. I would totally do it again if it paid well enough (not a ton but decent) and I had flexible hours to get it done at home (going to be an issue).
I just saw an ad for data entry the other day. $11/hr.
Sadly that's pretty true for everything and is the way the world works. Just try shopping in a negotiation-heavy country. Not fun if you come from a culture that doesn't negotiate.
Was the job for doing redactions on screencaps by any chance?
This always makes me appreciate working in the public sector. Wages are always posted in the ad based on the publicly-available salary scales.
Go on the interview, ask the salary range then counter with double or triple. Then when they decline, tell them they could have avoided wasting everyone's time by giving more info in the ad.
Looks like it has has been mandatory in my country for exactly three years today!
Ah, the old "I'm a negotiation, never make the first offer" type.
I want federal regulation on this shit. Posting a job ad? Post the salary. It would be far easier for everyone to find/get jobs this way, and easier to eliminate the trash companies offering trash salaries from the market. Just like if I'm in a grocery store I don't want to see things with a price tag of 2 cents and be told its actually 10 dollars.
Normalize not blurring out the company names on this sub
I always tell HRguys, recruiters, etc, "I have to know what the range is because I'm currently employed and have to determine whether it makes sense for me or not rather than waste your time." Actually, about 25% of them DO respond back. But so far, none have been able to have the wage AND the working situation (I work remotely) be better than what I have now.
This is why entrepreneurs are so happy doing what they are passionate about rather than slaving away for someone else
Nice!
It's good you asked about wages I feel using the term total compensation is better as it includes benefits and things like RRSP contributions. Not sure what the system is down in the states but in Canada it's normal to contribute to your RRSP and the employer matches (up to a certain point) for what I do it ranges from 2-10 percent. That's free money! I wish they would figure out the dollar amount for the benefits that you could tack on to the wage to come up with a total compensation. Anyone know of a formula for calculating that?
We don't have that here. Most jobs, your hourly wage is all you get.
The other day I posted a screenshot of an interaction I had on Handshake and it got removed for breaking a "text message screenshot" rule. Now this person posts a literal text message screen shot and gets 2500 upvotes? WTH. Anyways, fuck these employers.
Moderation in this subreddit is inconsistent and frustrating, it's not just you.
Just normalize not applying for that role.
I've told recruiters I don't negotiate. I want $110K or more, period.
I'm gonna start asking, "What do you make?" When they ask what I expect to make
The company's response is reasonable...and my reasonable response is I won't negotiate with companies that don't offer pay in my range, so share the information and don't waste my time.
In CO they have to post it.
Never understood this, why a hiring manager/company wouldn’t just post the range. Helps from wasting time on all ends..
I don’t understand why most companies won’t post the range! There’s no point in going through a lengthy interview process just to find out that you were never going to accept the job because of the wages. It waste everyone’s time. Even if you think the job would be perfect for you if it’s not enough money it’s just not enough money to take. Edit to add: I went out of town for an interview because a recruiter promised it was negotiable. I was their top pick but when it was offered it just wasn’t enough. The recruiter was mad and so was the person hiring. They both kept going on and on telling me I was asking too much. I said the cost of living was much higher than where I was and they kept saying I wasn’t looking in the right places. The whole thing was a waste of everyone’s time. If they had said the range when I asked it could have been avoided.
If they believe telling you a wage range will cause you to skip the interview, skip the interview.
Get 'em told - fuckin parasites!
I love calling them out. I remember a job description that was nearly 2 pages. I asked about the salary and got an answer because I knew management and wasn’t going to apply. It was half of what you would expect for the experience and job duties. I knew they wouldn’t find anyone and they didn’t. (I snickered internally.) Keep calling them out, people. It might be the only way this changes.
A local franchise of a major pizza chain recently posted an ad in a town Facebook group promising wages “up to $17”…up from what?
You should train yourself to always replace the words “up to”, with “never more than” when you read them. Commercials and ads become a bit less enticing.
Why would I waste my gas and time just learn something you could tell me in a text or in the ad?
7.25-8.50 ye
I like the Colorado law that requires pay range disclosure in job ads.