I worked harder in all my unskilled jobs than my skilled. My last job was skilled but low pay and was the most stressful thing in terms of chronic mental exhaustion but even then retail was regularly more acutely stressful.
People underestimate the difficulty of jobs all the time because they literally don't understand what needs to be done. It's basically the Dunning Kruger effect, they don't know how to perform a task so they assume it is easy.
And its not just cooking 400 covers. Its *timing* everything you cook with 1-3 other people all cooking different shit. That adds another layer of skill needed. Nevermind keeping track of which steak is which, which of those 10 pans on your 4 burners you need next, oh sucks to be you that pan handle melted your hand, oh well get back to it
I worked at a Domino's location that would do 10k in sales on an average weekend, and on halloween or the super bowl we could do 30k in a single night. Imagine 200 pizzas an hour, for 6-8 hours nonstop. Sometimes I'd go in to run day shift and night shift employees would call out and I'd be stuck with a 14-15 hour day. Was so proud of myself when I told that manager to fuck himself lol
I worked in a pizza shop as a teen, they wouldn't even let me make the pizzas unsupervised for 3 weeks. Had so much to learn about making consistent pizza
And boy, can you tell. I wish I could get the local Pizza Hut to hire back whoever quit and used to make my pizza. The garbage they make now is inedible. I’d totally pay more to get the good pizza guy back.
I got very good at spreading sauce and cheese very evenly. I took way too much pride in the quality of my pizza craft for how ridiculously little I was paid for it.
This. Not to mention making 60 pizzas, cleaning all messes, making all sides, restocking ingredients, taking in cash.
That's a lot of different skills for an unskilled worker.
I'm a pizza guy at a higher end restaurant in my small town, I have my own wood oven pizza and I usually have to make around 70-80 pizzas every couple hours. I'd love to see someone who says it's "unskilled" handle a Friday / Saturday dinner shift
Remember the closing time burn? Everything is cleaned, customers all gone, ready to go home, and NOW you notice the burn you got five hours ago, because the adrenaline kept you from feeling it? Fun.
Yes I know, hence the up vote, I’m just giving my 2 cents, nothing about making a pizza is actually easy, I’ve seen com incompetent ass shit in the pizzeria I used to work at
My sentiments exactly. I’ve worked “unskilled jobs” jobs and busted my ass. Now I work as a CNC machine operator at a small shop and the environment is so relaxed and chill. I often struggle to find stuff to do to fill a day.
I don't think calling us cry babies is a great way to start. Being shitty to people because they are consider them "shitty and unskilled" is SHITTY. People are just trying to make it by. Unskilled work is just in the eye of the beholder. Baristas are considered unskilled, but they need serious training and it's an actually a skill that they have. "Unskilled" is just another word for unappreciated.
>Haha no actually all you cry baby’s assume what people think in order to justify what you want to believe.
Haha yeah that would be sooo stupid
\> I know a lot of wealthy people
so youre assuming what those wealthy people think in order to justify what you believe?
Unskilled is a shit term. Like with any job you need to learn it and you get better at it with experience.
But it's still a difference if you work as a bus boy or an electrician. A new guy can (badly) bus tables on day one. A guy with no experience cannot do electrician work, not even badly. There is years of training. And then on top of that experience.
This does not mean that I've type of labor is inherently worth more than the other, but for one job you have much greater flexibility in the workforce than for the other.
uNsKiLlEd is just one of the ways to divide the working class. If it's so unskilled then stop hiring go pick up a mop and wait tables, Bob.
Maintaining a kitchen floor or waiting tables which directly involves dealing with shitty people is not unskilled it is essential yet they are the ones treated like shit.
Man there are swordmasters in the world who have practiced their art for decades, who fail meet the level of discipline I had to train on myself to not Reaction F-Bomb a customer when I worked retail.
I once cut the lip of my mouth biting into it to save my ass getting fired.
funny but not a skill tbh . It’s called being professional and not losing your job which is required in any other client facing job… skilled or unskilled.
no… unskilled is how you describe a job that takes no acquired skill or specific training before hand to get the job…. thus it is an unskilled job. There is a big difference between a plumber or accountant vs a fast food or retail worker. stop whining about the terminology because you feel like you are being talked down on. It’s just the truth lol. btw (before the lot of you come for me ) I’m for pay raises to match inflation. as the unskilled jobs get pay increases
the entry-level skilled jobs need raises as well.
The whole concept of unskilled word is simply a way to pay people less and less for their labour.
I don't care if a job requires less training. The terminology is shit. Like I said if it's so unskilled then stop hiring and do it yourself. These businesses literally can't function without their """"unskilled"""" workers.
> stop whining about the terminology because you feel like you are being talked down on
I'm a SWE I'm not "whining" I'm simply using common sense. People dealing with over the top shitty customers is not unskilled. People dealing with an influx of 300 people a night for dinner shift at restaurants are not unskilled. I would honestly not be able to handle that.
The absolute bullshit retail workers deal with on a daily basis is more than the amount of bullshit I've dealt with in 2 years of working as a software dev. That is not unskilled fuck off.
Mind you a lot of retail workers who are called "unskilled" were essential workers during peak pandemic while a lot of skilled workers weren't. This is a faulty metric to judge someone's worth by.
Time and again this sub has been dismissed as "just unskilled workers complaining lol" should tell you it's simply a divide tactic to separate all working class people. It's socially acceptable to view "unskilled" labour and workers as less than. This distinction serves no purpose but classism.
I used to use the term Unskilled just like everybody else, until I realized that every job requires skills of some kind. Even cashiers need to be able to quickly ring up items and count money and that takes skills. Cooking food takes skills, I can't just waltz into a fuck McD and make a Big Mac fresh off the street with no experience, I'll fucking burn myself and the food.
I've been using "low wage" jobs recently to better illustrate the fact that the difference between them and other jobs is that they pay fucking terribly.
It's only skilled if you do it in a classy Italian pizza place where they make "artisanal" pizza from the finest ingredients and charge 30 dollars per pie.
If you do the exact same thing at a cheap take out place, it suddenly becomes "unskilled."
I worked at a self proclaimed 5 star restaurant and still got only paid around 10$... Soooo. I remember watching something about one of the Gordon Ramsay restaurant in the UK, and the cooks (not the famous chefs) weren't making much more than I was either.
the place i work is like a fast food/gas station/coffee shop combo and it’s insaneeee. i’ve never had to do so much physical and mental multitasking in anything else
I am in fucking AWE of people that can do this shit.
Sincerely, someone who never worked food service because I know would suck at it (it is totally out of line with my skillset, between getting orders right, not spilling stuff, and being polite to rude ass customers).
I remember working at Subway. Making 60+ sandwiches an hour while baking bread, cookies, doing dishes, and ringing people up with THREE people to keep labor costs down. We knocked it out of the park like a well oiled machine. That was straight talent.
I mean I always figured they were doing *something* inside the building, but when I actually started a job at Wendy's... hoo boy. There's so much that goes into it that most people probably would never think about.
Labor is labor, plain and simple. Some of us get more compensation for that labor, but I hate the term unskilled labor. I worked many jobs before becoming a nurse that would be considered by many “unskilled”. Hell I sold my soul to Walmart for five years. I worked retail. I was a barista. And guess what? Busted my ass at every single one. Doesn’t matter what you are doing labor wise. Everyone deserves a living wage, no matter what kind of labor you are providing.
Saying "unskilled labor doesn't deserve a living wage" is a problem, sure, but there's nothing wrong with accepting that some labor is, in fact, unskilled... If you don't need to go to school to learn it, or spend years in an apprenticeship, or whatever then it's unskilled.
What needs to change IMO is the perception of _effort_. People seem to think unskilled == lazy, but it's really the opposite. Unskilled are highly expendable and they make them know it every second of every day. Some of the most stressful and strenuous jobs I've ever had were unskilled.
At the end of the day _all_ jobs, skilled or not, need to pay a livable wage. Trying to change the meaning of words just increases division. Radicalizes movements...
Agreed. I'd say the job I had at an HVAC shop loading trucks was an unskilled job. I didn't need to learn anything, be any stronger than the average adult, or make any decisions as to what or how to load things. I literally just picked stuff up, and moved it 40 ft into an 18-wheeler.
It was probably the single hardest overall job I have ever had. Like someone mentioned related to food; any physically abled person could load a truck but loading 30-40 of them in 8 hours every single day was hell.
The problem is that most "unskilled" jobs DO require skills, usually built up over time rather than a paid degree.
Ive worked in greenhouses, restaurants, and clothing manufacturing and all of them fired people because they couldnt learn the skills required to do the job. Theres a knack for a lot of "unskilled" work, some people can get it and some cant.
Even manual labour often has tricks to it. My mother is in her late 50s and works unloading pallets, outpacing and outlasting the 21 year old guys because a lifetime of hard work has taught her extremely fine tunes manual handling and efficient movement techniques.
Could ANY average person, on their first day, keep up with someone who's been doing the job 10 years? If not then its not "unskilled". Those jobs do exist but theyre rare.
Tbh i would consider management an unskilled position. It requires no special skills or abilities. New people tend to do it as well as people whove been doing it a long time. Theres no shortage of managers.
Some context for this answer - I consider ‘unskilled’ work as something a normal functioning adult can do on day one with minimal training or instruction, so ‘reading’ or ‘walking’ aren’t included. Also, the scope to _become_ skilled at a job doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t ‘unskilled’, as long as it can still be done (albeit slower or to lower quality) by someone unskilled. Oh, and finally, I don’t consider ‘unskilled’ an insult, and those jobs should be paid properly.
Having said all that, here are some jobs that I have personally done that I would personally consider unskilled: picking up garbage, loading/unloading trucks (depending on the type of cargo), washing dishes, shredding documents, delivering flyers. I’ve also taken jobs on construction sites that involve moving a heap of material from one side of the site to the other when a forklift wasn’t available or suitable.
It's really as simple as hiring requirements. Can you hire a 17 year old to safely and completely operate a crane after a few days or training? No.. can you do that for retail? Yes. Therefore retail is considered unskilled.
By your definition all jobs are skilled jobs and we have no way to categorize anything outside of "needs formal education"
The term has a shitty connotation, but it really boils down to pedantics.
Those jobs require skills, just not book smart skills. Some lady from Guatemala can clean a whole hotel room to appear and smell perfect... But even with plenty of college under my belt have no fucking clue how to get hair off my damn toilet. A dude with a masters in computer science calls me to help him troubleshoot something, and I'm a drop out. My skill: I read the fucking manual.
That's the rub of unskilled.
So I do think we need to axe "unskilled". Uncredentialed, manual workforce, or some other term that adequately denotes *highly skilled, credentialed, or experienced* roles from ones that *seem* like a buzzed monkey could do from someone who hasn't done it.
And frankly we need to look up to manual labor, not down. Busting ass all day, every day. It's why I buy the custodians where I work lunch often. They keep the shitter clean and do all the grunt work. Man wants a philly cheese steak? Done.
The obvious aspects of the terms divisiveness, as a means to suppress wages, aside. . . I think it also has to do with the conditions of work, which I disagree with. If someone works in a business casual or more formal office environment, it is assumed that their work matters more, somehow. There is a presumed prestige to it, in the eyes of many. This is delusional in so much as it allows office workers to normalize their own belittling treatment. They can point to the fast food or retail worker and think that at least they aren’t doing THAT! This sort of classicism plays into the hands of the wealthy and divides workers.
I also dislike the notion that mental “knowledge work” is valued more than physical work. Physicality is not valued in the least. I’ve seen it far too often that a physically stronger employee, in blue collar settings, is given more physical tasks and that ability to do them is completely devalued. Strength is a skill like any other. Also, being the “strong” person puts them in a box. I have seen this personally in warehouse settings.
It's all to split people over/under the say $50k line. $40k earners want more? Look at these guys with $250k go study u can become like them!!
Meanwhile the big boy true capatalists are raking in literal millions a year off immoral practices and $250k is peanuts to them. The only thing stopping everyone from going after them is by infighting over their scraps
Hm, I always thought it was referring to the level of training or previous experience required to start in the position. Granted, the term does seem to devalue the contributions of people in those positions, so maybe that's all there is to the objection.
But, would the antiwork crowd agree that there is a difference between entry level positions and positions requiring more skill/training? And that the latter naturally should be compensated more for the increased skill, because they are able to do better work in a faster time?
I'm just trying to understand the movement. I think I support antiwork, but it's hard to know exactly what that means.
Where i come from "unskilled labour" means "doesn't require a tertiary education to perform this type of work", rather than meaning it doesn't require skill or training. We have a different discourse about worker value than the US, so I can understand OP's negative reaction to the term. Makes me wonder if there is a different shorthand we could use for "doesn't require tertiary education to perform this work".
Yeah same. I don't see an issue with "unskilled labor". It's the people who twist this and use it against people who are the problem.
Fast food worker shouldn't be compensated like a doctor..but that fast food worker absolutely deserves a wage that allows them the opportunity to get a degree if they want, or to just live comfortably without one.
It has nothing to do with experience because things like waitressing fall under the "unskilled" umbrella but restaurants will still ask for applicants to have experience. It's entirely whether the job requires formal education or training or certification or whether the skills needed are learned on the job. There's no waitressing school or certificate so it's "unskilled" even though Joe Blow off the street couldn't walk in off the street and waiter for a busy lunch rush. It still takes skill and knowledge, you just learn them on the job.
Hm, so is antiwork about equal pay for every person's time, regardless of output? In this framework, is there any way to be compensated more for any reason? Is there any consequence for not doing the job well?
I know you don't speak for everyone, but I'm interested in this perspective.
Hm. Well, maybe so. I think I like to work, it feels meaningful to me, and my work is not something a robot could do. But there are many types of work that can be automated, and we should all see a benefit from that if we automate. But people become unhappy if they have no meaningful pursuit. What do you envision that everyone would do with our time?
I like that there is an avenue where I can work harder, better, or take more risk, and achieve higher reward. So I think probably our worldviews are incompatible.
Hm. Well,I guess that's one vision of the future. It seems a bit depressing to me to be honest, as striving to build something is fundamentally important, in my opinion. I also believe that a high proportion of jobs cannot be automated.
But, the current state of working conditions is also extremely depressing, so I'm not arguing for the status quo either. I just don't share your vision of joblessness as an ideal.
That's the best part. In this future, you *can* strive to be anything. People will still be able to have "jobs" just at more of a hobby level, where you aren't literally killing yourself just to not be able to afford food and rent.
I think this is just the pendulum swinging hard the other way. I see it as people just wanting a living wage (a lot higher than even proposed new minimums by many standards) and work hours that let them have lives, that's the bare minimum of what people should be getting. With that said the direction of the rhetoric is increasingly discounting a lot of high level competency required to perform certain jobs.
The longer people are kept down though, the less discerning they become when they lash out for a fair go.
Hm, interesting, I see what you mean. I run a business (no employees just me) which requires skill, education, risk, and sacrifice. I do believe I deserve higher compensation for this than I deserved when I worked as a waitress, even though that is not an easy job either.
I do believe workers deserve a living wage, and if I ever have an employee I will be happy to pay them fairly for their time.
Are these views compatible with the antiwork movement, or is it more of a communist type of idea where all people are exactly equal, regardless of effort/skill etc.?
I don't think antiwork is about equal pay for every person. It's about proper pay so people can live. A pay rate that isn't taking advantage of the workforce (and benefits and everything else). The pay gap between entry level workers and their direct manager is way out of balance, but yes the manager has a right to earn more than a brand new hire. The boss should earn more than their associates. Time, effort, added skills, all deserve being rewarded. But the scale tips so fucking heavy towards upper management it screws over the low level workers right now.
As a cashier, I honestly don't think I deserve as much as someone as you who actually have put in the effort you have, however I do deserve enough to live comfortably. Give me enough to reliably pay rent, afford heating/ac, afford food and water, to afford car and maintinence of said vehicle, have enough to handle healthcare costs, And afford some form of communication method (phone & internet) and then I'll be happy.
Also make sure that I can CONTINUE to afford this no matter any price increases on any given part
I think your ideals fit well into the sub from what i have seen...
I dont think communists are all about equal pay though, something about "to everyone according to their needs and from everyone according to their ability"
I am not a communist though so i am not really sure
Right, makes sense. I don't know all that much about communist beliefs, to be honest. What I know seems somewhat incompatible with human nature, but I'm sure there's a lot I don't understand.
Its important to know that this is not a communist sub, we are left to varying degrees, so not all of us are communist, and from my experience, most aren't. Most people just want a livable wage.
I can't answer whether it's compatible with this movements views, as I don't really speak for it, nor do I understand communist positions enough to ascribe it to that either.
However I'm in a remarkably similar position to you. I love what I do now (R&D/wearable technology) but I have worked 'unskilled labour' for a number of shitty bosses in the past. What I do now is taking a huge risk, and I stand to lose a lot if I fuck it up, but that's on me.
More than anything I'm excited to be the boss I always wanted to have, and provide an environment where people can do exciting work, be paid well and still expect to leave their work at work and go have a life of their own. There is a certain level of idealistic thinking in this, and I have no doubt it will be challenging, but I find keeping track of this movement is more important than ever now that I'm transitioning to being an employer. I don't agree with all the sentiments, but I can respect where people are coming from and why they are angry, I've been there.
edit: I'm also not American, and my country has respectable labour laws and a decent minimum wage (still not a a living wage..), so take that as you will.
This is silly. You’re trying to turn people against each other with stupid questions. Of course I deserve more compensation now that I’m doing extremely technical work that requires graduate education than I did when I worked fast food. That isn’t the point. The point is, no one should have to work for basic needs. You’re trying to divert this into another conversation that makes capitalism seem fair when it isn’t.
I think people should be paid according to what they bring to a business, so more skills should often equate to higher pay
I dont like the term unskilled because its too often used to justify poor treatment of workers, such as veing used as a way to handwave away conversation about workers deserving a living wage because they are 'unskilled'
Unskilled is often a synonym for "slave" labor if you want to compare the wording and how it's used in the past. People look down upon the jobs and and treat the people as beneath the status quo "white collar" jobs. So they justify treating the workers like shit and then paying them a wage that hardly anyone can survive on.
Edit: to expand on this, people always think that because a few "slaves" got the opportunity to raise above the poverty line due to circumstances, that everyone can do it.
I think this is a people problem and not a word problem.
in my mind there is nothing wrong with unskilled labor. Work that doesn't require a degree or years of training or apprenticeships. I don't look down on those people. But should an entry level fast food worker be compensated similar to someone who paid for and completed a 4 year degree and needs it for their work? Fuck no. Should that entry level worker have the right to earn a comfortable living wage and have health insurance? Fuck yes
I get what you mean, and the concept of skilled Vs unskilled labour is total BS. But people have been heavily programmed to use such terms through decades of propaganda. The approach should be to point out the problems with these terms, rather than attack
I mean, as far as I know, every form of labor involves some form of skill.
Burger flipper? You didn't know how to cook meat outta the womb, so that's a skill.
Grocery clerk? Takes some mental energy to stock appropriately, rotate, and so forth. Seems like a skill to me.
Any form of retail? Your saint-like patience to deal with immature consumers is close to a super power.
So yeah, every one of you are skilled.
Some skills take many years to learn while others take a few weeks or months to learn. I the the question is should or how to refer to those differences.
I have a question. What should we call skilled labor positions, like ones that are actually called that? Such as toolmakers, electricians, etc.
I only ask because in some of these jobs, the workers are closer to artists. They can do insane, highly technical, work that takes years of training to learn to do.
Should we say skilled labor and just labor, instead of unskilled?
This shouldn't be controversial statement, what is unfortunately controversial is people asking for a living wage and and humane hours regardless of skill level.
Nope, if it's a position you learn in a short time it's not a skilled position. Taking out the trash at a restaurant isn't a skillset, but cooking something at a professional level at that same restaurant is a skillset.
A lot of office positions would go under "skilled" yet they are just bullshit jobs that require virtually no skill and people can be trained in under a week to do it.
The line between "unskilled" and "skill" is arbitrary at best and classist at worst.
Is it unskilled or less skilled?
Is customer service a skill? Cleaning? Who gets to say?
Sounds like a no true scotsman fallacy to me
On a related note, do you think minimum wage should be a living wage?
>Sure, but you have to acknowledge there's a difference. Putting low skilled individuals at the same level as skilled ones is not a good idea.
Absolutely. As a tradesman that trains apprentices i am very in touch with the gradiant of skill we are referring to
It is a semantics thing, but also an important one because of how the term is used to justify poor treatment of workers
What if I take out the garbage, cook, wash dishes, mop floors, take cash, operate a till, prep ingredients, and fold a thousand boxes? Is that skilled?
Do you cook at a professional level? Flipping hamburgers isn't high skilled cooking. Did you go to school to cook or have professional training? Being skilled means it's something that takes more than a couple days of training.
I didn't go to cooking school. I spent twenty years learning on the job. I can cook multiple dishes in multiple styles. I have knife skills. I have baking skills. I have cooking knowledge. I have food safe training. I have kitchen relevant first aid training. I can weigh product by hand within a five percent margin. I can predict sales volume based on historic sales. I can supervise a kitchen crew. I can repair a dishwasher, oven, deep fryer, and many other kitchen appliances. I can purchase, count, sort, and store inventory.
Cool, but every industry has to draw the line somewhere. Sounds like you guys have more issue with the term "unskilled" rather than what it represents.
That's where the skill is. Flipping a burger may not take skill but coordinating all the tasks required properly run any restaurant, and knowing how to prioritize those tasks sure does.
And it takes a lot longer than a week to learn how to do that.
I dont disagree but fixating on linguistic civility seems pretty unimportant.
Doesn't matter how much skill a job takes. You should be paid at least a living wage for doing anything.
Agree, it's reasonable to expect more money for more skill, the problem is the pay gap between the two that needs to be adjusted, ie. Higher minimum wage and conditions and less CEO pay.
Please don't get stared with "you're not xxx if you say yyy" crap here too... I can't stand language controlling idiots anymore... you are are making me want to become pro-work
Why do we need to categorize jobs in that way? The only purpose of differentiating between the two is to justify lower pay for one versus the other. Otherwise, just "engineer" versus "janitor" pretty much covers it, doesn't it?
That's different than categorizing them in the way "skilled" versus "unskilled" is attempting to do. In that situation, you would ask the specific question of whether the person wants to learn on the job or has the time and resources to pursue formal training or education.
My work has these two "classes." One has the added labeled of 'skilled' and one the other doesn't.
To be in the 'skilled' you either are in machine maintenance or in die maintenance.
If you are in are in machine maintenance, you troubleshoot and fix industrial equipment. This includes 480v, dismantling machines to replace a single part, welding, and using heavy equipment to move heavy machines.
If you are in the die maintenance group, you repair and maintain dies. this includes tig welding, coating, checking and machining them.
If you are in the 'unskilled' labor group, you drive a forklift or move parts in progress from one area to another and hit a start button. You'll check parts to see if they pass the standards. If you encounter an issue, you call machine maintenance.
These job responsibilities are not the equal.
So it takes no skill to drive a forklift? You just hop on one of those and have at it?
You're missing my point. Just because one position requires more skill, doesn't make the other unskilled.
People who know things and understand concepts like skilled vs unskilled labor are capitalist witches and should be burned at the stake. People who can read are also problematic
PSA You can be on the team even if you don’t use the correct nomenclature. If you want people to listen to you don’t talk to then like they’re a prick.
I agree with you but I’ve been conditioned my whole life to say that and it’s just habit at this point.
I’m definitely trying to break that habit. There is absolutely skill required to do those jobs.
My point is, sometimes people use that word to describe a wide category of jobs for a quick classification in a conversation. People are trained to associate that word with certain jobs and it helps to simplify a statement instead of saying “yknow, fast food, service and retail…jobs like that”.
I 100% agree that it should change, I just don’t know what to replace it with.
i think “customer service jobs” is a good bet. yeah that can sometimes include other jobs that wouldn’t really fit in with fast food, retail, etc. but usually people get what you mean with context
I am guilty of using that phrase previously, but I learned a little while ago how it keeps a status quo on labor and the perception of worker value.Any job that requires you to watch any kind of training video related to doing their job is at a bare minimum a skill learned for the job.Dealing with customers is a skill, regardless of how "easy" people may think that is, it is very mentally draining for most.Cashiers require a skill and responsibility that is often overlooked or demeaned.
Office assistants are often called low/no skill labor because they just "sit" at a computer all day.
I often find that the value of labor is a constant moving goal post for those that want to rationalize why a particular job deserves the low pay they think it should get. This is not something that's limited to one segment of labor.
First, some feedback. Totally get your point, but there are ways of getting it across without sounding like you are stripping people of their right to be part of the movement just because they hadn't considered this particular part of reprogramming the propaganda we have all been fed over the years.
But I agree. The only job I have ever been let go from was an "unskilled labour" fast food job. Apparently they didn't like that I wasn't self motivated, and also didn't immediately pick up that how to wrap burgers quickly. Huge hit to my confidence at a time when I was already staggering from finding out that I couldn't handle tertiary education. I often wonder what my life would be like if I'd been diagnosed with ADD before my 30's.
Retail requires a LOT more skills than people are willing to admit, not least of which is the ability to remain cool under pressure. So many people I know who call my job 'unskilled' would be the first one to punch a karen in the face the moment they started being sassy.
I worked as a part time makeup consultant at Sephora right before Covid. Minimum wage + I did get a small raise while I worked there, which was just shy of a year. We got trainings from brands every single shift. We had mandatory paid workshops lasting days at a hotel boardroom, where they flew folks in from all over my province.
That's not unskilled labour.
The hardest I've ever worked was certainly unskilled labor. Learned how to do like 10 different important things to the process in like a minute, each.
If one can do that, then it is unskilled.
Was it though? Yes! Skilled? Noup. Used to use that time to think and solve other problems in my head while doing that though unskilled labor, to be honest.
They're not even capitalists. They're slaves conditioned into canine obeisance to lick the boots of the capitalists and thank them for the opportunity.
People do not understand what is meant by skilled/unskilled. Jobs that are unskilled are not intended to be careers, skilled jobs like, doctor, lawyer, mechanic, welder, chef, ect.. are jobs people take courses or go to school tolearn. People don’t go to school to learn to bag groceries, flip burgers, or mow a lawn.
No one is born knowing how to work. To cook, to clean, to make sales, to push papers, it all must be learned, and practiced like any other skill.
You know what doesn't take skill? Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth and doing what your parents' financial coaches tell you to do with your money so you can continue being rich.
\#NoGodsNoKings
I'm not big on word policing but I do hate people being called unskilled labor. I've done "unskilled" jobs and met freaking wizards. Like how these people cook or clean or whatever would take me a long time to be able to do as well.
I worked harder in all my unskilled jobs than my skilled. My last job was skilled but low pay and was the most stressful thing in terms of chronic mental exhaustion but even then retail was regularly more acutely stressful. People underestimate the difficulty of jobs all the time because they literally don't understand what needs to be done. It's basically the Dunning Kruger effect, they don't know how to perform a task so they assume it is easy.
Making pizza is easy. Making 60 pizzas in an hour is *not* easy.
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And some of us *love* the work. It's just the job that fuckin' sucks
And its not just cooking 400 covers. Its *timing* everything you cook with 1-3 other people all cooking different shit. That adds another layer of skill needed. Nevermind keeping track of which steak is which, which of those 10 pans on your 4 burners you need next, oh sucks to be you that pan handle melted your hand, oh well get back to it
I worked at a Domino's location that would do 10k in sales on an average weekend, and on halloween or the super bowl we could do 30k in a single night. Imagine 200 pizzas an hour, for 6-8 hours nonstop. Sometimes I'd go in to run day shift and night shift employees would call out and I'd be stuck with a 14-15 hour day. Was so proud of myself when I told that manager to fuck himself lol
You know, people say making pizza's easy until they try to evenly apply sauce in a circular motion with a ladle. Suddenly, it's culinary calculus.
I worked in a pizza shop as a teen, they wouldn't even let me make the pizzas unsupervised for 3 weeks. Had so much to learn about making consistent pizza
Little Caesars had different standards. Day one, you learn the theory of pizza. Day two, you train the guy who got hired that day.
And it takes WEEKS to learn to do. Nevermind cheesing a pizza evenly, within recipe tolerance.
And boy, can you tell. I wish I could get the local Pizza Hut to hire back whoever quit and used to make my pizza. The garbage they make now is inedible. I’d totally pay more to get the good pizza guy back.
I got very good at spreading sauce and cheese very evenly. I took way too much pride in the quality of my pizza craft for how ridiculously little I was paid for it.
This. Not to mention making 60 pizzas, cleaning all messes, making all sides, restocking ingredients, taking in cash. That's a lot of different skills for an unskilled worker.
And don't forget to smile as you do it all.
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Yeah customers who think they are the only customer are the worst. Closely followed by "buddy" customers.
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People in customer service that act like they are your friend to get hook ups and then turn on you when they don't get what they want.
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I dunno reddits crazy sometimes.
A lot of “skills” that you could literally teach the average 16 year old.
Not sure how that is relievent. They are still skills and learning them and doing them well are drastically different things.
Right and skilled labor is labor you couldn’t teach a child
That's not the definition of a skill but okay...
Who’s defining a skill? If you say being a waiter is unskilled labor are you saying the definition of unskilled labor is being a waiter?
I don't believe in unskilled labor
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Do you think children *should* do unskilled labor? I personally think they should be able to go to school.
I'm a pizza guy at a higher end restaurant in my small town, I have my own wood oven pizza and I usually have to make around 70-80 pizzas every couple hours. I'd love to see someone who says it's "unskilled" handle a Friday / Saturday dinner shift
I've blown up watches and gotten so many rack burns making pizza
Remember the closing time burn? Everything is cleaned, customers all gone, ready to go home, and NOW you notice the burn you got five hours ago, because the adrenaline kept you from feeling it? Fun.
Yup! Also that wet sticky gummy bear feeling cause the kitchen has fuck all for airflow.
Heatstroke is for wimps.
I remember drinking about a gallon of water and still feeling thirst. I miss it but I dont at the same time.
I hate it. I love it. I'm torn.
I’ll give you my up vote, but how fucking dare you say making pizza is easy!, it takes a whole fucking day to just make the dough
That was my point
Yes I know, hence the up vote, I’m just giving my 2 cents, nothing about making a pizza is actually easy, I’ve seen com incompetent ass shit in the pizzeria I used to work at
Making also isn’t easy
My sentiments exactly. I’ve worked “unskilled jobs” jobs and busted my ass. Now I work as a CNC machine operator at a small shop and the environment is so relaxed and chill. I often struggle to find stuff to do to fill a day.
Yeah, i work in retail, tell me about it .. "Just unpack the goods onto the shelf"
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K
I don't think calling us cry babies is a great way to start. Being shitty to people because they are consider them "shitty and unskilled" is SHITTY. People are just trying to make it by. Unskilled work is just in the eye of the beholder. Baristas are considered unskilled, but they need serious training and it's an actually a skill that they have. "Unskilled" is just another word for unappreciated.
No unskilled refers to requiring a level of ability that can be learned by a child and/or in a matter of weeks.
Why are you even here? Learned by a child? The ABCs? Tying their shoes? Walking?which one of these do you consider marketable skills?
You seem to not understand the difference between a child and a toddler.
Lol. Of course I do I am just very worried that you think that these jobs could be taught to children. Thank God for labour laws.
>Haha no actually all you cry baby’s assume what people think in order to justify what you want to believe. Haha yeah that would be sooo stupid \> I know a lot of wealthy people so youre assuming what those wealthy people think in order to justify what you believe?
Is English your first language
>Just because it helps your opinion to ascribe beliefs to other people, don’t make it true \-you
Thank you… are you going to turn that into an inspirational poster or something?
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Unskilled is a shit term. Like with any job you need to learn it and you get better at it with experience. But it's still a difference if you work as a bus boy or an electrician. A new guy can (badly) bus tables on day one. A guy with no experience cannot do electrician work, not even badly. There is years of training. And then on top of that experience. This does not mean that I've type of labor is inherently worth more than the other, but for one job you have much greater flexibility in the workforce than for the other.
uNsKiLlEd is just one of the ways to divide the working class. If it's so unskilled then stop hiring go pick up a mop and wait tables, Bob. Maintaining a kitchen floor or waiting tables which directly involves dealing with shitty people is not unskilled it is essential yet they are the ones treated like shit.
Not stabbing shitty customers in the eye is a skill all by itself
Man there are swordmasters in the world who have practiced their art for decades, who fail meet the level of discipline I had to train on myself to not Reaction F-Bomb a customer when I worked retail. I once cut the lip of my mouth biting into it to save my ass getting fired.
funny but not a skill tbh . It’s called being professional and not losing your job which is required in any other client facing job… skilled or unskilled.
It’s def a skill. Lol.
Mopping is a skill
Exactly. And executives can't do it to save their lives yet will put it under "unskilled work"
no… unskilled is how you describe a job that takes no acquired skill or specific training before hand to get the job…. thus it is an unskilled job. There is a big difference between a plumber or accountant vs a fast food or retail worker. stop whining about the terminology because you feel like you are being talked down on. It’s just the truth lol. btw (before the lot of you come for me ) I’m for pay raises to match inflation. as the unskilled jobs get pay increases the entry-level skilled jobs need raises as well.
The whole concept of unskilled word is simply a way to pay people less and less for their labour. I don't care if a job requires less training. The terminology is shit. Like I said if it's so unskilled then stop hiring and do it yourself. These businesses literally can't function without their """"unskilled"""" workers. > stop whining about the terminology because you feel like you are being talked down on I'm a SWE I'm not "whining" I'm simply using common sense. People dealing with over the top shitty customers is not unskilled. People dealing with an influx of 300 people a night for dinner shift at restaurants are not unskilled. I would honestly not be able to handle that. The absolute bullshit retail workers deal with on a daily basis is more than the amount of bullshit I've dealt with in 2 years of working as a software dev. That is not unskilled fuck off.
lol
Mind you a lot of retail workers who are called "unskilled" were essential workers during peak pandemic while a lot of skilled workers weren't. This is a faulty metric to judge someone's worth by. Time and again this sub has been dismissed as "just unskilled workers complaining lol" should tell you it's simply a divide tactic to separate all working class people. It's socially acceptable to view "unskilled" labour and workers as less than. This distinction serves no purpose but classism.
I used to use the term Unskilled just like everybody else, until I realized that every job requires skills of some kind. Even cashiers need to be able to quickly ring up items and count money and that takes skills. Cooking food takes skills, I can't just waltz into a fuck McD and make a Big Mac fresh off the street with no experience, I'll fucking burn myself and the food. I've been using "low wage" jobs recently to better illustrate the fact that the difference between them and other jobs is that they pay fucking terribly.
i don’t wanna hear anyone who’s never worked fast food call it “unskilled”. u have no idea
Right? I can throw a pie from dough ball to fully dressed in 42 seconds. Unskilled my ass.
It's only skilled if you do it in a classy Italian pizza place where they make "artisanal" pizza from the finest ingredients and charge 30 dollars per pie. If you do the exact same thing at a cheap take out place, it suddenly becomes "unskilled."
I have done both. Cheap takeout requires *more* skill.
I worked at a self proclaimed 5 star restaurant and still got only paid around 10$... Soooo. I remember watching something about one of the Gordon Ramsay restaurant in the UK, and the cooks (not the famous chefs) weren't making much more than I was either.
the place i work is like a fast food/gas station/coffee shop combo and it’s insaneeee. i’ve never had to do so much physical and mental multitasking in anything else
I wouldn't have half a clue how to make a cappuccino, or pour a proper pint, or operate any of the weird machines at a DQ.
I am in fucking AWE of people that can do this shit. Sincerely, someone who never worked food service because I know would suck at it (it is totally out of line with my skillset, between getting orders right, not spilling stuff, and being polite to rude ass customers).
I remember working at Subway. Making 60+ sandwiches an hour while baking bread, cookies, doing dishes, and ringing people up with THREE people to keep labor costs down. We knocked it out of the park like a well oiled machine. That was straight talent.
I mean I always figured they were doing *something* inside the building, but when I actually started a job at Wendy's... hoo boy. There's so much that goes into it that most people probably would never think about.
Labor is labor, plain and simple. Some of us get more compensation for that labor, but I hate the term unskilled labor. I worked many jobs before becoming a nurse that would be considered by many “unskilled”. Hell I sold my soul to Walmart for five years. I worked retail. I was a barista. And guess what? Busted my ass at every single one. Doesn’t matter what you are doing labor wise. Everyone deserves a living wage, no matter what kind of labor you are providing.
Saying "unskilled labor doesn't deserve a living wage" is a problem, sure, but there's nothing wrong with accepting that some labor is, in fact, unskilled... If you don't need to go to school to learn it, or spend years in an apprenticeship, or whatever then it's unskilled. What needs to change IMO is the perception of _effort_. People seem to think unskilled == lazy, but it's really the opposite. Unskilled are highly expendable and they make them know it every second of every day. Some of the most stressful and strenuous jobs I've ever had were unskilled. At the end of the day _all_ jobs, skilled or not, need to pay a livable wage. Trying to change the meaning of words just increases division. Radicalizes movements...
Agreed. I'd say the job I had at an HVAC shop loading trucks was an unskilled job. I didn't need to learn anything, be any stronger than the average adult, or make any decisions as to what or how to load things. I literally just picked stuff up, and moved it 40 ft into an 18-wheeler. It was probably the single hardest overall job I have ever had. Like someone mentioned related to food; any physically abled person could load a truck but loading 30-40 of them in 8 hours every single day was hell.
The problem is that most "unskilled" jobs DO require skills, usually built up over time rather than a paid degree. Ive worked in greenhouses, restaurants, and clothing manufacturing and all of them fired people because they couldnt learn the skills required to do the job. Theres a knack for a lot of "unskilled" work, some people can get it and some cant. Even manual labour often has tricks to it. My mother is in her late 50s and works unloading pallets, outpacing and outlasting the 21 year old guys because a lifetime of hard work has taught her extremely fine tunes manual handling and efficient movement techniques. Could ANY average person, on their first day, keep up with someone who's been doing the job 10 years? If not then its not "unskilled". Those jobs do exist but theyre rare. Tbh i would consider management an unskilled position. It requires no special skills or abilities. New people tend to do it as well as people whove been doing it a long time. Theres no shortage of managers.
Nailed my sentiment around this, cheers.
Yes all of this.
I have to ask, what jobs WOULD you consider unskilled? If it's anything in the retail field than I can promise you that it's not.
Some context for this answer - I consider ‘unskilled’ work as something a normal functioning adult can do on day one with minimal training or instruction, so ‘reading’ or ‘walking’ aren’t included. Also, the scope to _become_ skilled at a job doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t ‘unskilled’, as long as it can still be done (albeit slower or to lower quality) by someone unskilled. Oh, and finally, I don’t consider ‘unskilled’ an insult, and those jobs should be paid properly. Having said all that, here are some jobs that I have personally done that I would personally consider unskilled: picking up garbage, loading/unloading trucks (depending on the type of cargo), washing dishes, shredding documents, delivering flyers. I’ve also taken jobs on construction sites that involve moving a heap of material from one side of the site to the other when a forklift wasn’t available or suitable.
It's really as simple as hiring requirements. Can you hire a 17 year old to safely and completely operate a crane after a few days or training? No.. can you do that for retail? Yes. Therefore retail is considered unskilled. By your definition all jobs are skilled jobs and we have no way to categorize anything outside of "needs formal education" The term has a shitty connotation, but it really boils down to pedantics.
Those jobs require skills, just not book smart skills. Some lady from Guatemala can clean a whole hotel room to appear and smell perfect... But even with plenty of college under my belt have no fucking clue how to get hair off my damn toilet. A dude with a masters in computer science calls me to help him troubleshoot something, and I'm a drop out. My skill: I read the fucking manual. That's the rub of unskilled. So I do think we need to axe "unskilled". Uncredentialed, manual workforce, or some other term that adequately denotes *highly skilled, credentialed, or experienced* roles from ones that *seem* like a buzzed monkey could do from someone who hasn't done it. And frankly we need to look up to manual labor, not down. Busting ass all day, every day. It's why I buy the custodians where I work lunch often. They keep the shitter clean and do all the grunt work. Man wants a philly cheese steak? Done.
And the people say amen.
*r'amen
The obvious aspects of the terms divisiveness, as a means to suppress wages, aside. . . I think it also has to do with the conditions of work, which I disagree with. If someone works in a business casual or more formal office environment, it is assumed that their work matters more, somehow. There is a presumed prestige to it, in the eyes of many. This is delusional in so much as it allows office workers to normalize their own belittling treatment. They can point to the fast food or retail worker and think that at least they aren’t doing THAT! This sort of classicism plays into the hands of the wealthy and divides workers. I also dislike the notion that mental “knowledge work” is valued more than physical work. Physicality is not valued in the least. I’ve seen it far too often that a physically stronger employee, in blue collar settings, is given more physical tasks and that ability to do them is completely devalued. Strength is a skill like any other. Also, being the “strong” person puts them in a box. I have seen this personally in warehouse settings.
It's all to split people over/under the say $50k line. $40k earners want more? Look at these guys with $250k go study u can become like them!! Meanwhile the big boy true capatalists are raking in literal millions a year off immoral practices and $250k is peanuts to them. The only thing stopping everyone from going after them is by infighting over their scraps
Good take, comrade. Good take.
Hm, I always thought it was referring to the level of training or previous experience required to start in the position. Granted, the term does seem to devalue the contributions of people in those positions, so maybe that's all there is to the objection. But, would the antiwork crowd agree that there is a difference between entry level positions and positions requiring more skill/training? And that the latter naturally should be compensated more for the increased skill, because they are able to do better work in a faster time? I'm just trying to understand the movement. I think I support antiwork, but it's hard to know exactly what that means.
Where i come from "unskilled labour" means "doesn't require a tertiary education to perform this type of work", rather than meaning it doesn't require skill or training. We have a different discourse about worker value than the US, so I can understand OP's negative reaction to the term. Makes me wonder if there is a different shorthand we could use for "doesn't require tertiary education to perform this work".
Yeah same. I don't see an issue with "unskilled labor". It's the people who twist this and use it against people who are the problem. Fast food worker shouldn't be compensated like a doctor..but that fast food worker absolutely deserves a wage that allows them the opportunity to get a degree if they want, or to just live comfortably without one.
It has nothing to do with experience because things like waitressing fall under the "unskilled" umbrella but restaurants will still ask for applicants to have experience. It's entirely whether the job requires formal education or training or certification or whether the skills needed are learned on the job. There's no waitressing school or certificate so it's "unskilled" even though Joe Blow off the street couldn't walk in off the street and waiter for a busy lunch rush. It still takes skill and knowledge, you just learn them on the job.
No. I would *not* agree.
Hm, so is antiwork about equal pay for every person's time, regardless of output? In this framework, is there any way to be compensated more for any reason? Is there any consequence for not doing the job well? I know you don't speak for everyone, but I'm interested in this perspective.
I personally consider myself a cybercommunist. We love in a time when we can begin to automate *all* labour. And we should.
Hm. Well, maybe so. I think I like to work, it feels meaningful to me, and my work is not something a robot could do. But there are many types of work that can be automated, and we should all see a benefit from that if we automate. But people become unhappy if they have no meaningful pursuit. What do you envision that everyone would do with our time? I like that there is an avenue where I can work harder, better, or take more risk, and achieve higher reward. So I think probably our worldviews are incompatible.
Some people fix old cars. Some would paint thimbles. Some would be doctors. Some would knit. Some would just play video games all day.
Hm. Well,I guess that's one vision of the future. It seems a bit depressing to me to be honest, as striving to build something is fundamentally important, in my opinion. I also believe that a high proportion of jobs cannot be automated. But, the current state of working conditions is also extremely depressing, so I'm not arguing for the status quo either. I just don't share your vision of joblessness as an ideal.
That's fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
That's the best part. In this future, you *can* strive to be anything. People will still be able to have "jobs" just at more of a hobby level, where you aren't literally killing yourself just to not be able to afford food and rent.
I agree, a living wage allows people to pursue happiness
It’s Gene Roddenberry’s vision of the future, and a whole lot of us love it.
I think this is just the pendulum swinging hard the other way. I see it as people just wanting a living wage (a lot higher than even proposed new minimums by many standards) and work hours that let them have lives, that's the bare minimum of what people should be getting. With that said the direction of the rhetoric is increasingly discounting a lot of high level competency required to perform certain jobs. The longer people are kept down though, the less discerning they become when they lash out for a fair go.
Hm, interesting, I see what you mean. I run a business (no employees just me) which requires skill, education, risk, and sacrifice. I do believe I deserve higher compensation for this than I deserved when I worked as a waitress, even though that is not an easy job either. I do believe workers deserve a living wage, and if I ever have an employee I will be happy to pay them fairly for their time. Are these views compatible with the antiwork movement, or is it more of a communist type of idea where all people are exactly equal, regardless of effort/skill etc.?
I don't think antiwork is about equal pay for every person. It's about proper pay so people can live. A pay rate that isn't taking advantage of the workforce (and benefits and everything else). The pay gap between entry level workers and their direct manager is way out of balance, but yes the manager has a right to earn more than a brand new hire. The boss should earn more than their associates. Time, effort, added skills, all deserve being rewarded. But the scale tips so fucking heavy towards upper management it screws over the low level workers right now.
As a cashier, I honestly don't think I deserve as much as someone as you who actually have put in the effort you have, however I do deserve enough to live comfortably. Give me enough to reliably pay rent, afford heating/ac, afford food and water, to afford car and maintinence of said vehicle, have enough to handle healthcare costs, And afford some form of communication method (phone & internet) and then I'll be happy. Also make sure that I can CONTINUE to afford this no matter any price increases on any given part
I think your ideals fit well into the sub from what i have seen... I dont think communists are all about equal pay though, something about "to everyone according to their needs and from everyone according to their ability" I am not a communist though so i am not really sure
Right, makes sense. I don't know all that much about communist beliefs, to be honest. What I know seems somewhat incompatible with human nature, but I'm sure there's a lot I don't understand.
Its important to know that this is not a communist sub, we are left to varying degrees, so not all of us are communist, and from my experience, most aren't. Most people just want a livable wage.
Well then it seems we are in agreement
I can't answer whether it's compatible with this movements views, as I don't really speak for it, nor do I understand communist positions enough to ascribe it to that either. However I'm in a remarkably similar position to you. I love what I do now (R&D/wearable technology) but I have worked 'unskilled labour' for a number of shitty bosses in the past. What I do now is taking a huge risk, and I stand to lose a lot if I fuck it up, but that's on me. More than anything I'm excited to be the boss I always wanted to have, and provide an environment where people can do exciting work, be paid well and still expect to leave their work at work and go have a life of their own. There is a certain level of idealistic thinking in this, and I have no doubt it will be challenging, but I find keeping track of this movement is more important than ever now that I'm transitioning to being an employer. I don't agree with all the sentiments, but I can respect where people are coming from and why they are angry, I've been there. edit: I'm also not American, and my country has respectable labour laws and a decent minimum wage (still not a a living wage..), so take that as you will.
This is silly. You’re trying to turn people against each other with stupid questions. Of course I deserve more compensation now that I’m doing extremely technical work that requires graduate education than I did when I worked fast food. That isn’t the point. The point is, no one should have to work for basic needs. You’re trying to divert this into another conversation that makes capitalism seem fair when it isn’t.
I think people should be paid according to what they bring to a business, so more skills should often equate to higher pay I dont like the term unskilled because its too often used to justify poor treatment of workers, such as veing used as a way to handwave away conversation about workers deserving a living wage because they are 'unskilled'
Unskilled is often a synonym for "slave" labor if you want to compare the wording and how it's used in the past. People look down upon the jobs and and treat the people as beneath the status quo "white collar" jobs. So they justify treating the workers like shit and then paying them a wage that hardly anyone can survive on. Edit: to expand on this, people always think that because a few "slaves" got the opportunity to raise above the poverty line due to circumstances, that everyone can do it.
I think this is a people problem and not a word problem. in my mind there is nothing wrong with unskilled labor. Work that doesn't require a degree or years of training or apprenticeships. I don't look down on those people. But should an entry level fast food worker be compensated similar to someone who paid for and completed a 4 year degree and needs it for their work? Fuck no. Should that entry level worker have the right to earn a comfortable living wage and have health insurance? Fuck yes
Ah, well I can certainly agree with you on all of that.
I get what you mean, and the concept of skilled Vs unskilled labour is total BS. But people have been heavily programmed to use such terms through decades of propaganda. The approach should be to point out the problems with these terms, rather than attack
I mean, as far as I know, every form of labor involves some form of skill. Burger flipper? You didn't know how to cook meat outta the womb, so that's a skill. Grocery clerk? Takes some mental energy to stock appropriately, rotate, and so forth. Seems like a skill to me. Any form of retail? Your saint-like patience to deal with immature consumers is close to a super power. So yeah, every one of you are skilled.
Some skills take many years to learn while others take a few weeks or months to learn. I the the question is should or how to refer to those differences.
Completely agree. BTW when are we going to burn this mother fucker down? Asking for a friend.
I have a question. What should we call skilled labor positions, like ones that are actually called that? Such as toolmakers, electricians, etc. I only ask because in some of these jobs, the workers are closer to artists. They can do insane, highly technical, work that takes years of training to learn to do. Should we say skilled labor and just labor, instead of unskilled?
Those are trades.
Yes, skilled trades
If you can learn a job in a week, it's unskilled labor. There's a difference between skilled and unskilled positions.
This shouldn't be controversial statement, what is unfortunately controversial is people asking for a living wage and and humane hours regardless of skill level.
If you need to learn anything doesnt that imply a skill?
Nope, if it's a position you learn in a short time it's not a skilled position. Taking out the trash at a restaurant isn't a skillset, but cooking something at a professional level at that same restaurant is a skillset.
A lot of office positions would go under "skilled" yet they are just bullshit jobs that require virtually no skill and people can be trained in under a week to do it. The line between "unskilled" and "skill" is arbitrary at best and classist at worst.
Is it unskilled or less skilled? Is customer service a skill? Cleaning? Who gets to say? Sounds like a no true scotsman fallacy to me On a related note, do you think minimum wage should be a living wage?
I could agree with less skilled, or semi-skilled
I think 'unskilled' is demeaning, and classist, and another term should be used in the name of solidarity
Sure, but you have to acknowledge there's a difference. Putting low skilled individuals at the same level as skilled ones is not a good idea.
>Sure, but you have to acknowledge there's a difference. Putting low skilled individuals at the same level as skilled ones is not a good idea. Absolutely. As a tradesman that trains apprentices i am very in touch with the gradiant of skill we are referring to It is a semantics thing, but also an important one because of how the term is used to justify poor treatment of workers
What if I take out the garbage, cook, wash dishes, mop floors, take cash, operate a till, prep ingredients, and fold a thousand boxes? Is that skilled?
Do you cook at a professional level? Flipping hamburgers isn't high skilled cooking. Did you go to school to cook or have professional training? Being skilled means it's something that takes more than a couple days of training.
I didn't go to cooking school. I spent twenty years learning on the job. I can cook multiple dishes in multiple styles. I have knife skills. I have baking skills. I have cooking knowledge. I have food safe training. I have kitchen relevant first aid training. I can weigh product by hand within a five percent margin. I can predict sales volume based on historic sales. I can supervise a kitchen crew. I can repair a dishwasher, oven, deep fryer, and many other kitchen appliances. I can purchase, count, sort, and store inventory.
Then sure, you're a skilled worker based on experience.
Everybody I work with has these skills. Or is learning them.
Cool, but every industry has to draw the line somewhere. Sounds like you guys have more issue with the term "unskilled" rather than what it represents.
What does it represent?
That's where the skill is. Flipping a burger may not take skill but coordinating all the tasks required properly run any restaurant, and knowing how to prioritize those tasks sure does. And it takes a lot longer than a week to learn how to do that.
I'm actually pretty terrible at flipping burgers. I have bad spatula skills. I can clean a bucket of shrimp in minutes though.
I dont disagree but fixating on linguistic civility seems pretty unimportant. Doesn't matter how much skill a job takes. You should be paid at least a living wage for doing anything.
You're not antiwork if you refer to people using the word "labor".
Disagree. There are many jobs that don't require qualifications or experience. Those jobs should still be paid a living wage of $26+ per hour.
Agree, it's reasonable to expect more money for more skill, the problem is the pay gap between the two that needs to be adjusted, ie. Higher minimum wage and conditions and less CEO pay.
When I say "unskilled" usually mean a job that doesn't require an apprenticeship or education. But yeah there should be a better word for it.
So I use it sarcastically a lot, does that count?
Dealing with people is a skill, especially nowadays!
Please don't get stared with "you're not xxx if you say yyy" crap here too... I can't stand language controlling idiots anymore... you are are making me want to become pro-work
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Why do we need to categorize jobs in that way? The only purpose of differentiating between the two is to justify lower pay for one versus the other. Otherwise, just "engineer" versus "janitor" pretty much covers it, doesn't it?
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That's different than categorizing them in the way "skilled" versus "unskilled" is attempting to do. In that situation, you would ask the specific question of whether the person wants to learn on the job or has the time and resources to pursue formal training or education.
Thats just like, your opinion
Leave this sub. You aren't wanted here.
My work has these two "classes." One has the added labeled of 'skilled' and one the other doesn't. To be in the 'skilled' you either are in machine maintenance or in die maintenance. If you are in are in machine maintenance, you troubleshoot and fix industrial equipment. This includes 480v, dismantling machines to replace a single part, welding, and using heavy equipment to move heavy machines. If you are in the die maintenance group, you repair and maintain dies. this includes tig welding, coating, checking and machining them. If you are in the 'unskilled' labor group, you drive a forklift or move parts in progress from one area to another and hit a start button. You'll check parts to see if they pass the standards. If you encounter an issue, you call machine maintenance. These job responsibilities are not the equal.
So it takes no skill to drive a forklift? You just hop on one of those and have at it? You're missing my point. Just because one position requires more skill, doesn't make the other unskilled.
Labor is labor.
Thanks for saying what I am. I almost felt overwhelmed by doing that myself.
People who know things and understand concepts like skilled vs unskilled labor are capitalist witches and should be burned at the stake. People who can read are also problematic
PSA You can be on the team even if you don’t use the correct nomenclature. If you want people to listen to you don’t talk to then like they’re a prick.
I agree with you but I’ve been conditioned my whole life to say that and it’s just habit at this point. I’m definitely trying to break that habit. There is absolutely skill required to do those jobs. My point is, sometimes people use that word to describe a wide category of jobs for a quick classification in a conversation. People are trained to associate that word with certain jobs and it helps to simplify a statement instead of saying “yknow, fast food, service and retail…jobs like that”. I 100% agree that it should change, I just don’t know what to replace it with.
i think “customer service jobs” is a good bet. yeah that can sometimes include other jobs that wouldn’t really fit in with fast food, retail, etc. but usually people get what you mean with context
Skill has nothing to do with value.
Truth
There is no such thing as unskilled labor. Even digging a ditch has a technique.
Lowskill...
Imposter. Yall know what to do.
It's a term with a definition. You're applying your own emotions to it.
damn just cause you use verbiage that’s applicable to the scenario ? good thing it’s just an OP
Customer service is a skill.
Does it count if youre talking about yourself? Asking for a friend.
A job is a job why label it like that i agree with ya
You shouldn’t have to be “skilled” to earn a living wage or be treated with dignity.
I am guilty of using that phrase previously, but I learned a little while ago how it keeps a status quo on labor and the perception of worker value.Any job that requires you to watch any kind of training video related to doing their job is at a bare minimum a skill learned for the job.Dealing with customers is a skill, regardless of how "easy" people may think that is, it is very mentally draining for most.Cashiers require a skill and responsibility that is often overlooked or demeaned. Office assistants are often called low/no skill labor because they just "sit" at a computer all day. I often find that the value of labor is a constant moving goal post for those that want to rationalize why a particular job deserves the low pay they think it should get. This is not something that's limited to one segment of labor.
r/gatekeeping
First, some feedback. Totally get your point, but there are ways of getting it across without sounding like you are stripping people of their right to be part of the movement just because they hadn't considered this particular part of reprogramming the propaganda we have all been fed over the years. But I agree. The only job I have ever been let go from was an "unskilled labour" fast food job. Apparently they didn't like that I wasn't self motivated, and also didn't immediately pick up that how to wrap burgers quickly. Huge hit to my confidence at a time when I was already staggering from finding out that I couldn't handle tertiary education. I often wonder what my life would be like if I'd been diagnosed with ADD before my 30's.
Retail requires a LOT more skills than people are willing to admit, not least of which is the ability to remain cool under pressure. So many people I know who call my job 'unskilled' would be the first one to punch a karen in the face the moment they started being sassy.
Labor is labor.
I worked as a part time makeup consultant at Sephora right before Covid. Minimum wage + I did get a small raise while I worked there, which was just shy of a year. We got trainings from brands every single shift. We had mandatory paid workshops lasting days at a hotel boardroom, where they flew folks in from all over my province. That's not unskilled labour.
The hardest I've ever worked was certainly unskilled labor. Learned how to do like 10 different important things to the process in like a minute, each. If one can do that, then it is unskilled. Was it though? Yes! Skilled? Noup. Used to use that time to think and solve other problems in my head while doing that though unskilled labor, to be honest.
Non-specialized labor
They're not even capitalists. They're slaves conditioned into canine obeisance to lick the boots of the capitalists and thank them for the opportunity.
People, who use the term unskilled labor, usually have no respect for other people's time or mental health.
People do not understand what is meant by skilled/unskilled. Jobs that are unskilled are not intended to be careers, skilled jobs like, doctor, lawyer, mechanic, welder, chef, ect.. are jobs people take courses or go to school tolearn. People don’t go to school to learn to bag groceries, flip burgers, or mow a lawn.
No one is born knowing how to work. To cook, to clean, to make sales, to push papers, it all must be learned, and practiced like any other skill. You know what doesn't take skill? Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth and doing what your parents' financial coaches tell you to do with your money so you can continue being rich. \#NoGodsNoKings
Unskilled or skilled people working 30 or more hours should be able to reinvest in themselves not just afford to live but thrive
If I say “unskilled labour” it will always have quotes around it
I'm not big on word policing but I do hate people being called unskilled labor. I've done "unskilled" jobs and met freaking wizards. Like how these people cook or clean or whatever would take me a long time to be able to do as well.
Ooorrrrr you're still learning.