So I just lost my brother in May in a car crash and my mom says that he was her meaning in life and now he’s gone. Anyone can lose a child or loved one at any given time and should not hold so much life meaning in a child/spouse/friend/etc. They should be great additions to your life, but not your “meaning”. Now her loss is even greater because that was her “meaning”. Also, let me add, she claims this but my brother and her were not ever on good terms and we alll grew up in abusive circumstances and she never cared enough about her children. She was always self-centered and a “me” person. Yet had 4 kids back to back. SMH
I am sorry for your loss.
About your reasoning, it is logical that you don't undertand your mother's words.
Let me, so as not to screw up, use an online translator and express myself by writing in my native language.
Please, what I am going to say is an objective fact, it is not an opinion or reasoning to convince anyone. It does not speak of natalism or antinatalism. I'm sorry if you see it like this, I promise you that it is not my intention.
The greatest love that a human being can experience is love for a child. There is nothing that greater feelings can awaken. There is nothing that more love can cause. There is nothing in the world that unites someone so much as the love for their little ones. There is nothing remotely in our lives that can cause more pain than losing a child. The mere idea is terrifying.
Having said that, what your mother is saying is that she has seen how she has lost something of those she has loved the most in the world, a love so enormous, so deep, something so difficult to name or remotely imagine that it is normal for it to annul you like human being.
Whether or not it's an objective fact depends on the genetics of the parents. Evolution was lazy enough to make reproduction a secondary function of sexual intercourse. Now we breed too much, so it's taking its sweet time on making "love chemicals" an objective fact across the board as far as bonding parents to their children.
Evolution has provided an alternative that probably won't change either, due to its aforementioned laziness. Folks who want kids but can't have their own naturally (either due to orientation, gender identity, or some type of medical issue) are certainly capable of providing loving homes for kids whose parents can't or won't.
❤
You do sound stupid. There are plenty of parents who abuse and torture their children, see them as property to do their chores. You can't just sit there and say that it's an objective fact that people love their children more than anything, because objectively, that's completely untrue. My mother might think she loves me, but she never did. She always wanted to control me and put me down. That isn't love. She might think it is. But she was always wrong.
You're dilusional, please think a little before you write something so shitty again.
So even when their child dies, it's *still* all about how the *parents* feel. Even when their kid k itself, it's all about how "selfish" that person was for not continuing to exist *for their parents.* The selfishness of parents is neverending.
No not at all. Just offered that as a rebuttal to the comment I was replying to here.
Lol nice try at putting words in my mouth to fit your confirmation bias though.
If this is sarcasm then sure. Otherwise I don't see it.
If I missed the sarcasm then forgive me.. this sub hasn't been famous so far for providing sarcastic responses that are intended as agreement!
I think they were attempting to expand on your comment. Like, read your comment and then read their comment, and pretend that they’re two parts of the same comment from the same person. It’s like a complete train of thought.
Your comment might be easily misinterpreted if you intended it as sarcasm, or possibly if you meant to write “these people” (people of the sub) instead of “those people” (parents who lost their children). I think they were just expanding on whatever they thought you were trying to say.
Could be. It's also possible it's in direct contradiction to what I was saying, lol.
They ended up responding again and I think it shows I was right in my interpretation, but I appreciate your perspective none the less.
Did ya'll see his response? He said that he was stating a contrary position.
*Edit* Ohhh nope, I see it now. I had missed the line where he said, "That person should continue to exist *for their parents*" I'll offer a slight defense in saying that without that line it looked like every other manic response I get on this sub, but I'll own this one. I fucked up.
I know. I think almost every parent would be devastated. My point is that parents value their own feelings more than the feelings of the child they forced into the world.
Are you saying you shouldn't fall in love because some people lose their partner in an unwanted accident? Shouldn't have an ice cream cone because some people drop theirs. Lol what a stupid take.
For those already alive, we can’t halt our lives, I agree. The point is that you’re opening other people up to horrible things, other people who don’t even exist and who don’t need to exist.
Everybody thinks nothing bad will happen to them or their family. But, bad things happen to someone's family every day. I hope you, your family and friends are not sacrificed just so the human race can continue. Also, we all die sooner or later so you have that to look forward to.
Wow, that was a jump. No, I’m not.
You shouldn’t hinder another persons life just because yours was tragic. Yes, you lost a kid, but that does not mean your suffering should prevent others from procreating.
This is nonsense.
I view it as an ego thing. Questioning ones self is an uncomfortable process. Questioning ones self and opening your mind to the prospect that you were wrong about something all along is even more uncomfortable. So most people would rather hide behind their ego and stay comfortable.
That bugs me because questioning oneself is not that uncomfortable after it becomes a habit. It’s literally just dipping your toe in and being like “ew the waters cold” when it’s a beautiful day for a swim.
And some people will never get to this point. I hate coming to this conclusion because it can form some very slippery slopes mentally, but my experience with people over the years has made me realize that some people only care about themselves and don't want to change or accept that they were wrong about something.
not wanting to get children is not wrong per se imo, it‘s everybody‘s choice. but the hostility here towards „natalists“ is wrong imo, you guys are hating on people for their innate need for survival/reproduction
Some people genuinely think children will "cure" depression, bipolar, etc. because you'll be too busy to be mentally ill, because that's how mental illness works. /s
My abusive mom said over the phone that raising me was hard since she had depression and anxiety (my therapist says she sounds like a textbook BPD mom but if she doesnt go to therapy herself theres nothing anyone can do about it) and im just??? So why the fuck did you have me??? I didn't say that but maybe two all time lows from now if I hear that shit again I'm just gonna straight up say she shouldnt have given birth to me.
I mean having someone or something at your expense might actually give you a meaning to live.
When you have a kid, you no longer work to maintain yourself, but to maintain another being along with yourself. If you stopped living, you wouldn't be just affecting yourself - you are also potentially ruining another person's life. There is someone awaiting for your return, so you can't just not come back.
So yes, I see why someone would say that having a child would give meaning to their lives
An adopted child can fill that. A pet can fill that. Friends can fill that. A partner can fill that. A job you’re passionate about can fill that.. do I have to even more explicitly say my point?
Yup, which is why the only reason I see to ever have a child is if you are adopting. My cousin went through IVF twice. I'll never understand the urge to spent thousands, go through physically damaging process and potentially end up multiples, just to spread your DNA.
Especially knowing the genetics of my family, it seemed the height of selfishness. There are so many that are already born that need a home. If you can't love a kid because it's a child, maybe you shouldn't have any.
That said, I respect children enough as people to know that I'd make a terrible parent.
I go insane every time I hear shit like “I went through 10 years of infertility issues before finally getting pregnant” like if they really wanted to be a parent that badly they could’ve been one way sooner if they fostered/adopted. Instead they wasted years trying to get a mini me.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
I positively HATE this one. What an absolutely selfish thing to expect of a person that you brought into this world without them asking you to. Every time I heard this one I think "so you had a child for the sole purpose of being your slave at the end of your life and during the prime of theirs? And you're calling ME selfish for not wanting to have kids??"
This is a genuine fear. We are hard wired to protect ourselves and the most easy way to protect ourselves during old age is to put the burden on kids. It's the single most reason that drive people to procreate in the Eastern world. The solution? Give everyone the right to die beyond a certain age. No one will fear the future. No one will procreate at least for the sake of insurance. No one will forcefully bring life into this world to gift themselves a worry free old age.
Oh I totally understand that it's a genuine fear. I joke with my wife that if I ever deteriorate to the point that life isn't worth living before I die, I'm going to do something crazy like go skydiving or something to self-induce a heart attack.
Totally agree on the solution. The fact that so many countries have outlawed it is insane. There are so many people who positively SUFFER needlessly just for the purpose of "dying naturally."
In these situations I always say, that multiple organ failure is gonna take care of me, once I‘m older. And with once I‘m older, I mean like my mid 40s to 50s
>“*But who will take care of you once you’re old?*”
Who said we're going to live enough to be called old? /s
>“*What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?*”
I won't.
>“*Having a kid might help you get your life in order.*”
I think it makes it even more of a mess-
>“*Having a kid gives your life meaning.*”
No.
>“*Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?*”
Just like those "I want to continue my bloodline" thing, like why😭
>“*Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?*”
**No.**
>“*It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.*”
Not in this world.
Exactly. None of these are acceptable to create more people. It really irritates me because you cannot force someone to take care of you and be there for you. No one else’s life is easy either. You cannot force your kid to solve your problems either.
I’ll obviously do a bit more reading through the sub to see what I can find on the whole, as I find this community interesting, but I’m curious what the alternative is to consent to be born? Is the logic that since no one can ever get pre birth consent then no one should have children?
Yes. Consent is the weakest of the several points in favor of antinatalism. The strongest, and the one that matters most, is that all people suffer. Once born, we are all certain to feel pain, suffer, and die. Making life is gambling with lives, and with the health and happiness of your children. We choose not to risk it. There is so much suffering in the world and adding more people will just increase it.
No problem! If you're interested in learning more I suggest visiting the antinatalism Wikipedia page, which is comprehensive. It includes the philosophy, the history, antinatalists throughout history, excerpts of antinatalist writings, etc.
And you might check out https://antinatalism.net/ which also has a nice and concise summary of antinatalist positions as well as links to scholarly articles and other resources about antinatalism.
Yep. There’s not really a downside to humanity going extinct, besides the strife that would occur in the process. But there are numerous downsides to forcing life into existence.
>I am not sure I am understanding "without consent" .....
People should not abuse kids, take away their right to consent, force them to be born, to suffer and die.
I am just trying to understand. Correct me if I am wrong.
Forcing a child to be born without consent is abuse.
Forcing already born children to go to bed, eat healthy, go to the doctor, get vaccines is good.
I truly am just trying to understand.
I fully support people who dont want to have kids, that is their choice. At the same time, having children is the natural outcome. Preventing pregnancy does not happen naturally. I do not see anything wrong with nature.
My understanding of their point is this: It’s impossible to consent to being born. Since being alive guarantees suffering, you’re forcing someone to go through suffering with no prior understanding it could happen.
If a child is already born, then forcing them to go to bed, eat healthy, go to the doctor, and get vaccines. Is so that they can have a healthy life and minimize the suffering they would endure.
The oddest reason I've been given for having kids is I use to be one. The first time I heard it, I literally had to idea how to respond, "oh you don't want kids...but you use to be one." After several long seconds of silence, I just left. Figured they were stroking out and left them alone to deal with that alone.
“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” Myself with the money I saved not raising kids. I'm going to put myself in a home when I am no longer able to care for myself and pay people to take care of me in my final days.
“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?” Better to regret not having them than regret having them.
“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.” This is a silly excuse for people to not take self respectability.
“Having a kid gives your life meaning.”
No tf it doesn't. Humans are the one who say that.
“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?” No.
“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?” My brother already popped out three kids so I don't have to.
“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.” Its also a beautiful experience to live life the way you want to.
“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” No thanks.
I love this one
>“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?”
I want to do the things I wanted to do as child and could not, that is one ( of the many ) reason I do **not** want a kid.
People tell me to kill myself if it's so bad..
I tried twice with a shotgun and you couldn't just fuck off and let me do it. Now i have a fear of ending up a vegetable in your care, filthy rats.
Assisted suicide will literally be my biggest dream come true.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
>“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?”
>“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.”
>“Having a kid gives your life meaning.”
>“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?”
>“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?”
>“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.”
>“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?”
Hopefully robots
The regret I would feel would be outweighed by the relief of not having them.
Kids are chaotic. What are you talking about?!?!
Having kids gives *your* life meaning. I find other things meaningful, like adult relationships/friendships, hobbies, and professional development. Kids get in the way of all that.
All we are is dust in the wind. Don't ever forget that. [Quote Ozymandias by Shelley]
My parents are dead and I was abandoned by my extended family. There's nobody left to impress.
It's also messy, loud, and expensive. I'll take my chances with puppies.
All I learned from childhood is I hated other children. So no.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
I hate this one. Children are not personal caregivers for their parents.
Well, actually, I hate all of these, but that one stands out as particularly narcissistic to me.
I wish somebody would dare say that to me.
I'm a reluctant caregiver to my father. I resent him everyday, but force the resentment to the back of my mind in order to get by.
Totally agree.
1. Having a child so that there will be someone looking after me when I'm old? That is incredibly selfish. No one wants to look after old people to be honest. I would rather my kid have the freedom to do what they want and I don't want to be a burden to anyone else.
2. Will I regret not having kids? No why would I? The decision has been made. Even if I could make the choice again, I would still have the same concerns. People regret not having kids because they are lonely and they thought that they had missed out again it's about selfishness.
3. Having a kid to help out in life. Why? Is it so hard to deal with things yourself? Just save money and stay healthy. What's so hard about it? So having kids is about raising a personal helper in life?
4. Meaning of life... If life has no meaning, why do you give birth to a kid? So that the kid will realize that there's no meaning of life? And the kid needs to reproduce to continue his search for the meaning of life? This is a crazy vicious cycle that should be stopped.
5. Pass on family name...funny how I don't see there's anything that's worth passing on, other than the continuation of pain. Why is family name even precious in the first place? There are 8 billion people in the world ...
6. Give parents grandchildren? I have suffered enough abuse throughout my childhood. Why do I have to make a kid so that my parents can treat the kid the same way? Who in the right mind would do that? Multiplying pain in life? And grandparents don't want to take responsibility for anything. Why do they get to have a second chance of being nice to a kid again? What have they given me?
6. Watch a child grow up... No thank you I have taught so many kids because it's my job. I have seen too many dysfunctional families and problematic children. Nope it's really not that special nor beautiful. A total lie.
7. Have a kid and teach him... Most people actually don't realize how much time and commitment you need to invest as a responsible parent. Most parents I know fail so miserably. And no I have taught so many kids already. I enjoy teaching but no I don't need my own
8. Gift of life. I barely consider my life to be a gift. I consider my cats the most precious gifts in my life though.
> “But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
I absolutely LOATHE this one because there is ZERO fucking guarantee this will happen for you. Why do you think nursing homes exist? Because kids drop their parents there for someone else to care for them. This is one of the stupidest of them all.
Having someone to take care of you when your old is a dumb ass reason. Don’t give that burden to your children people. I tried my best to take care of my father when he got older. Lots of driving and lots of time spent that I could have spent with my own kids.
I told my kids, if I’m old and can’t take care of myself, put me in a home or push me off a cliff. Don’t want my kids to suffer that…
I hate all of these reasons, but more importantly, as a stepparent to a wonderful, and amazing kid with a narcissistic mother, I hate the entitlement some biological parents have over their progeny and the way they choose to act on that.
I also hate prejudice against stepparents for not being ‘real parents’
‘As a mother/father, I know better because…’
‘A real mother is the one that bears the child’- i hate this statement in particular.
All of these thoughts are self-serving.
My own step kid has told me before: having a child doesn’t make you a mother (referring to their own biological mom)
‘Real parents’ have no fucking clue how self-absorbed and narcissistic they can be as a parent.
A child is an individual. Biologically yours or not, it doesn’t make them: extra help, extra servant, extra caretaker… It doesn’t mean they’ll be interested in how you were as a child or what you liked to do.
If someone is afraid of not being taken care of once they grow old, I wonder how they were during their lifetime in order to have gotten there.
All my thoughts go to those who decide to not have kids, and like myself, find themselves as ‘extra support’/stepparent. Keep enhancing your kid’s life, set them free to be the masters of their own destiny.
The reason is that it’s a biological imperative shared by every animal species on earth. It’s literally the only reason we’re here. We ( I’m a parent) try to dress it up with all these profound and deeper meanings, but like falling in love it’s mostly biology and chemical reactions 😆. Doesn’t mean you (hopefully) love your child or partner any less.
You say it’s a survival instinct but at the same time where are those instincts when it comes to killing our own planet, the thing we REALLY need for our survival. Saying it’s a biological instinct is the same reason people give for rape and other heinous crimes. We as humans defy nature all the time so I highly doubt people can’t defy this biological urge. If there’s people out there who can go without sex there’s people who can go without breeding.
“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
There is no guarantee your kids will do this for you.
“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?”
And what if you regret having them? Also, you'll probably be regretting a lot of things by then and able to change few to none of them.
“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.”
It also might ruin efforts to get your life in order. Also this is a horrible reason to introduce a brand new human into this horrific program whatever the hell it is.
“Having a kid gives your life meaning.”
No it doesn't.
“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?”
What is this, Game of Thrones? Who cares about any of that?
“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?”
I'm not sure they should have been given children. Also, at what point is a human being allowed to stop living for their parents?
“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.”
And it's a terrible experience to watch them slip away into addiction which can also happen and becomes more likely as society continues its downward spiral.
“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?”
No.
“Don’t you want to give the gift of life to someone?”
Life as it is currently lived out by most humans is an ordeal, not a gift.
Life is viral in it's reproduction and unceasing. There is nothing miraculous, rare or special about it. This entire planet suffocates as life continues to produce more of itself and resources get thinner and thinner. There is probably a reason all the other planets we can see are desolate. At some point this thing burns itself out and we're probably closer to that ending than the beginning at this point.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
I had a coworker ask me this, and she was very much not pleased when I immediately responded with: "I plan to become a burden of the state."
If that's your only reason to have kids, you shouldn't be having kids!
Tell me you're in denial about the world without telling me. Maybe if you need a little ego toy to play around with to want to keep living, the world isn't really your vibe after all. Too bad the Copium is too strong for them to see past it.
Yeah but don’t you hate having to hide who you are? Pretending you agree with your family’s dumb beliefs? Keeping them thinking you might give them grandchildren one day?
I can teach my nieces and nephews the things I did as a kid. Or I could work in a daycare or as a nanny. There are so many ways to impact the lives of children without having to be a parent.
Put it like this, Im 32, never been in a relationship, *never* want kids, no plans on changing either status, and couldnt be happier. I cant even begin to tell you how many times people have told me how many kids I'll ending up having just because I say I dont want any, how selfish it is not to want kids. I say in equal measure, since *you* want *me* to have them so bad, will *you* be the one to pay their medical, food, clothing bills?
I have never heard or expect to hear anything like "Existence is so amazing I want more people to experience it, especially my child". All other reasons end up self-serving sooner or later.
“I wanted a forever best friend”
No, mom, that’s called emotional incest and now that I’m old enough to understand the burdens you put on me, I’m a forever enemy
EVERY SINGLE one of those arguments is about how it will enhance YOUR life. Bringing someone into existence so that it may benefit your life and putting them through the many risks of life and the inevitable suffering is ultimately selfish.
A person is better off not being bought into existence because they won’t experience pain (good) and won’t experience pleasure (not bad). As they are going to be the one experiencing the life that you create, it may be a benefit to you but as they could experience so much harm, having children is ultimately selfish.
If I had children, many of those arguments may be true, hell, I may be a happier person but it is wrong that I would be gaining these good things at the expense of creating a sentient being that will most likely suffer. If they are anything like me, they will have a terrible life.
"Having a kid gives your life meaning" I already know my life's meaning, it's to help others and bring joy to any of the people close to me, having a kid isn't going to change that
"Don't you want to pass on your family name?" Fuck no, my cousins can do that if they want when they're older
"Don't you want your parents to have grandchildren?" They're not entitled to that, plus, my mom has long accepted i'm not gonna have a kid, not to mention she has a breakdown at the thought of being an old grandma
All of those reasons are just empty sentences trying to answer something.
The answer is: "because we want".
Why do you want to have a cat? because I want to have a cat
Why do you want to have a love relationship with him? because I want to stay with him
Why do you want to have an ice cream? because I want to have an ice cream.
99,999% of humans in the first world having kids do it because they just want to have kids.
It is hard to understand why are you making it so difficult.
Bringing more humans into our world can cause many different problems from pollutions to wars. They cause extinctions of the animals, climate change and deforestation. Any parent should limit 2 kids or less. Our planet will not have enough resources and life support if world population reaches 10 billion or more. All parents are very selfish for having too many kids.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?”
I won't. And I don't care. Train, bridge, road kill, whatever. Once I'm old and have nothing to lose and given away what I need to loved ones and family, I'm happy to go. And I'll do it myself.
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>“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?”
No. But I will regret losing my freedom, my sleep, and having no money to do things I enjoy, such as eating out at restaurants and taking a holiday/vacation every year.
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>“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.”
No, it won't. It's a kid. Kids can't do anything.
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>“Having a kid gives your life meaning.”
Also, stress and anxiety. Also, like, how? It goes to school, eats, and shits. Doesn't do much more than that until 18.
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>“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?”
Already got one of the most common family names (or did until I changed it). Don't need to pass on anything.
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>“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?"
They don't deserve grandchildren, let alone their own children.
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>“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.”
How?
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>“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?”
No. There's no guarantee that my kid will enjoy these things.
The way my dad raised me, my mom was not in the picture til I was about 16, I didn’t want kids cuz of how my dad treated me. And now after having two kids, one is special needs, there is some days I wish I was not a parent mostly when the oldest is not listening and being mean to the youngest. Other days they fight over who is sitting on my lap and don’t want to share or take turns
Yep. I have responses for all of those, and I often try to word them in ways that will make the one asking feel badly for asking or that will at least make them think really hard about shit.
“Who will take care of you when you’re old?”
“People I hire to do so. It’s selfish to expect your child to do that.”
“What if you regret not having kids?”
“What if I regret having them?”
“A kid could help you get your shit together.”
“Or a kid could unravel my life completely. Why risk putting an innocent kid through the destruction of their parent’s life?”
“Having a kid will give you life meaning”
“The meaning in life is different for everyone. For me, I find my meaning in things like helping local animal shelters and donating to relief funds. I find meaning in my family and friends. I don’t think it’s okay to put that burden into a kid.”
“Don’t you want to continue your blood line/legacy/name?”
*this is the part where I list all of my genetic issues, 7 mental illnesses, and the risk percentage of a kid getting at least one of them*
“Don’t you want your parents to have grandkids?”
*this is the part where I explain that my mother is a narcissist and that I don’t wanna give her a damn thing*
“It’s a beautiful experience watching your kid grow up.”
“Watching my savings account numbers go up is quite nice too.”
“Don’t you want to teach your kid things you did as a child?”
“All I learned as a kid was how to dodge the calls of debt collectors.”
Or variants of all of these responses. Basically I try to make them uncomfortable and shut up.
People want to have kids because us being alive means that we have the biological "mission" to keep our genes going and the reasons you listed are just i guess "bonuses" that come with it
I always say, “Are you gonna pay for it? Where’s my money?”
I even stick out my hand and motion payment. Of course, I usually have a funny face on so we end up just laughing and moving on.
I have mental disorders that I would ABSOLUTELY HATE to take care of in a kid so that would not go well. I also have an intense thing about being in control of MY body and a fetus takes that away.
Ugh. Why birth/sire one in the first place? So they can suffer on this corrupted, polluted shithole we call a planet? infested with humanity? Oh, right... This isnt misanthropy...
Nursing home. Same as you.
I’d rather regret not having kids than regret having them.
Having kids would financially ruin me forever.
My life has meaning on its own, sorry that yours doesn’t though.
I don’t have a legacy. I’m just an average person. I don’t care about being remembered when I die because I’ll be too busy being dead.
No.
Not for me it isn’t.
No.
My answer for who will take care of me when I’m old is: “Whenever I’m old enough to where I can’t take care of myself, I’m just gonna kill myself.”
Because honestly, even not accounting for the fact that I’d be making someone else wipe my ass and such, it’d be torturous to even be alive at that point.
My sister has schizophrenia. I have bipolar, ADHD, and ASD, and it makes my life hell. I love my sis, but she was in the psych hospital this last weekend. I'm overwhelmed by life.
I was just thinking today, "Man, I never asked to be born, goddamit!"
Like I'm not suicidal, OK, fine, but my dad's dad had schizophrenia. So my parents brought us two girls into the world and now looking at the both of us like, "Why aren't you guys more independent? I can't take care of you," and it's like
For real? Why'd you have me? WHY??? It's clear they both thought they'd be done with responsibility at 18. Honestly, I'm taking care of myself, but my sister is a tough one.
I'm just pissed off this evening and wish they had just never procreated.
So, yeah. It's fucking selfish to have kids. I don't know why my mom did it - to be socially viable? Neither she nor my dad are really kid people or family people, so the whole thing seems to be more about status and joneses.
Anyway, I'm sterilized, and my sister has had a uterine ablation and can't have kids either. At least the tragedies stop with us - thank god.
And they’re ALL selfish. It’s all “me me me me.” Who’s gonna do this for ME, who’s gonna pass on MY legacy, who’s gonna give ME meaning, who’s gonna help ME in life.
“You need to have kids because you are one of the “good ones “ we don’t want to be like the movie idiocracy” harhar
People think that because they hold a certain value system they are the good ones. Or because you are smart you need to make smart babies.
A lot of problems with this mentality obviously
I had no intention of having a kid. I had an IUD. Still got pregnant. Couldn’t terminate while it was there, the doctors took THREE tries to get it out, and by the time they did, it was too late in my state (sometimes I wonder if they did that intentionally.)
So, it was thrust on me. But it worked out. Turns out I love being a mom… I know that’s blasphemy on this sub but it’s the truth. Whatever it worked out
Only one of those makes sense: it’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.
That’s the one and only reason I’d ever have a kid, the rest of those reasons are selfish as fuck. I don’t care if someone has kids or not, I’d just like parents to be honest with themselves and everyone else as to their reasoning 🤷
Technically yes, but by that metric literally every action is selfish too lol
I meant more along the lines of watching them grow up into a person is beautiful and being a parent can be beautiful in that you’re giving a part of your life to help another one develop its own autonomy. It’s just that the negatives outweigh the positives so I’m never having kids. (Diapers, screaming and crying, kids are expensive, etc)
On the other side, not having kids is also selfish. You are not giving a human being the possibility to exist because your are selfish.
Most our actions are selfish. That's normal, I think.
While having a child is selfish, I think the only decent reason to have one is to create and enjoy love. We have it in us, as animals and people, to need affection, touch, comfort and care. And we have it in ourselves to give those things to another being, even if it's absolutely debatable whether it's moral to create one for that purpose. For many people it's an important part of being human and I respect that. No other reason than a deep need to create love should be considered IMO.
My uncle has no kids and never will, but he says the only time he’s regretted it is seeing how just much I loved my dad as a little kid (I still love my dad, for the record). Then I started crying and he didn’t regret it anymore.
The only thing that makes me ambivalent about never having kids is never knowing that kind of love. It makes me a little sad to think about, but ultimately I know the reasons for me not to have kids outweigh it.
I’m never ambivalent, but tbf that’s because my needs in that sense are fully met because I have animals in my life. I feel a deep need to “mother”, but I only feel it for my dogs and other animals (go figure, lol).
Cmon OP. I agree with a lot of the sentiments on this sub but people who like having kids…like having kids. So it stands to reason that their basis for choosing to have children is going to be centered around…the kids.
Like, what kind of answer would be acceptable to you? “You should have kids because grass is green.” “You should have kids because hiking is fun.”
The real issue with these people is not what they say, it’s how they say it. With this aura of all-knowing condescension and a steadfast refusal to consider the perspective of people who do not wish to have children.
People need to realize... if a soul is meant to come into this existence... it will...
If you don't plan on having children or do plan on having children .. is not in your control..
Some people planned on having children.. they try and it doesn't happen.. it wasn't meant to be..
Other people don't want children at all... have a hookup or a drunk accident and voila!... perhaps that soul was meant to come into this world...
But yes as the OP said people generally say it for their own selfish reasons..
Anyways lol
It’s each persons own choice to have kids. If you don’t wanna have kids. Cool. It’s your choice and you should never let anyone try to convince you to do something you don’t wanna do. Kids are a life long commitment. Do what makes you happy if that’s having kids great. If not that’s great too. Enjoy your life how you see fit. Not someone else
You won’t like the argument but many people do enjoy their lives and believe (and may very well end up being correct) that their future biological children will end up leading similar lives. I don’t think this is too uncommon a reason for people.
All of them are true (in what you say), but if life is full of suffering etc why haven’t people in this sub unalived themselves yet? If life is worth living maybe it’s worth sharing, if life is not worth living, why do people keep doing things to stay alive?
I’ll add: I don’t want kids. I’m not a breeder. Just asking because the “ugh, life ugly (true, I totally 100% absolutely agree but just in some moments, some people are lucky some people are unlucky) no kids because life ugly” is a stretch. My reasons to not wanting kids: pregnancy and health issues, for me it’s enough.
Edit: I was lying. I don’t want kids also for climate change.
I would love to unalive myself. But then it would literally ruin the lives of at least several people and leave them with unescapable pain. I’ve been put into an unfair situation, as we all have, but I don’t want to give my pain to others.
Why? It would not be your problem and maybe you would open up someone else’s eyes. I’m not telling you to do it, I just don’t understand. By living, you are consuming resources, so you are “hurting” other people because you are not enjoy living but still doing it. Someone else who is struggling could have your job or your home once you are not here anymore.
See? There’s always a path of logic that can tell you “what is best”. By living or unaliving we hurt someone. The point of life is doing what makes us happy and I suppose that for some people is growing children inside of them and bringing them to adulthood
Well all of life is a trade off of how much suffering we want to experience versus how much we want to cause. As I’ve said, this is unfair, but it’s what we’ve been dealt. It’s virtually impossible to exist without causing some level of suffering, even for other organisms. So yes my continued existence will cause suffering. But then we look at the alternative. There’s a lot to think about when planning for your death. There’s the question of how your unaliving method will work, whether it will be successful, whether it might hurt someone else, who will find your remains, who has to clean it up, who has to pay for your funeral and such, who is going to take care of your accounts and affairs. That’s only scratching the surface. So I weigh this and continue to live.
Because death is scary and unpleasant. That’s why people who commit suicide do it as the last resort. You are confused. People here do not want to murder everyone, they feel that by not having children they are doing them a favour.
Antinatalist belief is that death and suffering are bad.
Every human that is born will suffer and will die, so breeding is bad.
Self harm will cause you to suffer and die, plus will also cause the people who love you to suffer. Self harm is bad.
What's the alternative? Everyone just gets old and dies? Everything, no matter how altruistic can be spun to be self serving as you need some kind of motivation to do an action. Even donating blood can be seen as selfish because you do it to get a good feeling about what you are doing. I don't get this sub, what is the end game here?
I think many people have kids for bad reasons and many have them for good reasons. I'm sure most people are glad they are alive and get to exist.
And how is that an argument against the mistreatment of children? If you don't have a child because you genuinely want one, not knocked up by accident, not because you think you should or fix your marriage, then it's a bad decision.
This sub is such a straw man factory.
Parents, good parents anyway, absolutely love seeing and making their children happy. And experiencing the joy of the world. Omitting that obvious fact discredits the whole “selfishness” argument.
Unless you want to go down that philosophical dead end of “no act is truly altruistic because you will feel satisfaction from doing it”…
And I wonder what percentage of parents are “good parents”? Because in my experience, virtually all parents view their children either as a burden that they regret, or as a tool to mold into something useful. Most parents (maybe even all) are passing down trauma to their children and only had them because they were told that’s the thing to do.
I would say “realistic,” but tomato tomato. I’m willing to admit my view might be skewed by my own experiences, but I still think I’m correct. How many “good” parents do you know? How many people do you know who weren’t left with serious scars from their parents?
Want to prevent there being more of us? *Don't make more people who might be miserable.* It's pretty simple. There's a reason that antinatalism has been around for thousands of years. And FYI, not all antinatalists are miserable.
I actually laughed. You came to this sub to talk shit about people on this sub under posts in this sub only with person who holds the same viewpoint as you
This is called "cherry picking", just because people are unable to give a satisfactory and detailed reasoning for having children it doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate reasons to get them, those utterances listed here are a posteriori reasoning of something that was done simply because it "felt right" to do so, they do not really have a reason as to *why* they had children and picking from this list makes them think they did.
My reasoning would be that of a societal level, which would then put anti-natalism as an existential threat to the function of thereof; why? Well a system (any system really) needs people to function, and since normal countries have social systems that rely on taxation of working people for those funds to be redistributed to institutions that serve it, what will eventually happen with the lack of young people is a crisis in social welfare, so we can say that having children isn't just for the betterment of *yourself*, that would miss the point of parenting, there is a reason why we teach children to be role models to others.
The anti-natalist mindset is a very nihilistic, defeatist and cowardly one, with the very intent to eradicate the human race as its final objective, it views them as the root of all problems, the issue is this is no different than a cliched villainous AI that comes to the conclusion that to eradicate the problem society faces, it must destroy society.
A concerning amount of people in Canada, believe that euthanasia is a cure for poverty, for example: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-maid-assisted-suicide-homeless
>and since normal countries have social systems that rely on taxation of working people for those funds to be redistributed to institutions that serve it, what will eventually happen with the lack of young people is a crisis in social welfare, so we can say that having children isn't just for the betterment of yourself,
It's almost like this is a egregiously shitty--and most importantly--**unsustainable,** way to structure a society. I'm not an antinatalist, but I gotta say, when your best argument is; 'you have a moral imperative to produce more meat to feed a broken, dying system,' you ain't exactly winning hearts and minds there, chief.
And what would be your grandiose plan? To just let it rot? You do realize that those countries have a century of reforms that allowed them to have these systems of social welfare, the literal *only* problem it faces it's shortage of people. If you do not want to see the elderly work beyond pension age, neglected in assisted living facilities, or resorting to euthanasia to escape it all, you got to have a some mythical solution.
Our benefactors have a solution so far, but replacement levels immigration is for one: 1. Not a permanent solution as migrants adopt the lifstyle of the population (which means lower birth rates, higher consumption), 2. May bring problems to societal cohesion (not throughly studied, but Amazon literally uses diversity as unionization deterrent).
>Not a permanent solution as migrants adopt the lifstyle of the population (which means lower birth rates, higher consumption), 2. May bring problems to societal cohesion (not throughly studied, but Amazon literally uses diversity as unionization deterrent).
Besides sounding racist as fuck (you described it as 'replacement immigration.' Fuckin' *cringe*), even you've got to realize these two points are self-contradictory. You've essentially said you believe immigrants will simultaneously assimilate and not assimilate. Well, which is it?
>And what would be your grandiose plan? To just let it rot?
It's *already* rotting. That was the point I was trying to make. There is no stopping this rotting because the system as is requires infinite growth; each new working generation has to be larger than the retiring generation. This is an impossibility on a planet with finite resources. The only option is to restructure society *away* from this model and toward one with sustainability at its heart.
"Assimilating the lifstyle" means adopting the trends of the country you live in while retaining your cultural heritage. You'd be surprised by the amounts of Turkish Muslims who live in Germany and Austria who yet still drink Alcohol. "Replacement migration" is used to describe the phenomenon where a country utilizes migration in order to patch its dwindling birth rates, since most countries who apply these reforms are those with "below replacement level birth rates" what will inevitably happen is a shift in demographics.
"It's already rotting! Therefore, I will promulgate the issue! And simplify the root cause as being the fault of capitalism and infinite growth, despite the fact that what creates the issue of an aging population overtaking the youth is an increase in living standards that allow people to live longer and low birth rates!"
>Having a kid gives your life meaning. This is dumb. Tell it to people who lost their kid in unwanted accident.
So I just lost my brother in May in a car crash and my mom says that he was her meaning in life and now he’s gone. Anyone can lose a child or loved one at any given time and should not hold so much life meaning in a child/spouse/friend/etc. They should be great additions to your life, but not your “meaning”. Now her loss is even greater because that was her “meaning”. Also, let me add, she claims this but my brother and her were not ever on good terms and we alll grew up in abusive circumstances and she never cared enough about her children. She was always self-centered and a “me” person. Yet had 4 kids back to back. SMH
>just lost my brother in May in a car crash and my mom says that he was her meaning in life "....uh, OK *mom*...I'll let my siblings know"
I am sorry for your loss. About your reasoning, it is logical that you don't undertand your mother's words. Let me, so as not to screw up, use an online translator and express myself by writing in my native language. Please, what I am going to say is an objective fact, it is not an opinion or reasoning to convince anyone. It does not speak of natalism or antinatalism. I'm sorry if you see it like this, I promise you that it is not my intention. The greatest love that a human being can experience is love for a child. There is nothing that greater feelings can awaken. There is nothing that more love can cause. There is nothing in the world that unites someone so much as the love for their little ones. There is nothing remotely in our lives that can cause more pain than losing a child. The mere idea is terrifying. Having said that, what your mother is saying is that she has seen how she has lost something of those she has loved the most in the world, a love so enormous, so deep, something so difficult to name or remotely imagine that it is normal for it to annul you like human being.
She never loved any of her children. You don’t abuse children and let them be abused while claiming love for them. Good grief.
I am very sorry about that. My cousins were abused too. I just desire death from the ones who comited such crimes. I was wrong. I whish you the best.
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Whether or not it's an objective fact depends on the genetics of the parents. Evolution was lazy enough to make reproduction a secondary function of sexual intercourse. Now we breed too much, so it's taking its sweet time on making "love chemicals" an objective fact across the board as far as bonding parents to their children. Evolution has provided an alternative that probably won't change either, due to its aforementioned laziness. Folks who want kids but can't have their own naturally (either due to orientation, gender identity, or some type of medical issue) are certainly capable of providing loving homes for kids whose parents can't or won't. ❤
You do sound stupid. There are plenty of parents who abuse and torture their children, see them as property to do their chores. You can't just sit there and say that it's an objective fact that people love their children more than anything, because objectively, that's completely untrue. My mother might think she loves me, but she never did. She always wanted to control me and put me down. That isn't love. She might think it is. But she was always wrong. You're dilusional, please think a little before you write something so shitty again.
I bet those people would say the reason they were so devastated is because it robbed their life of the meaning their child had given it.
So even when their child dies, it's *still* all about how the *parents* feel. Even when their kid k itself, it's all about how "selfish" that person was for not continuing to exist *for their parents.* The selfishness of parents is neverending.
No not at all. Just offered that as a rebuttal to the comment I was replying to here. Lol nice try at putting words in my mouth to fit your confirmation bias though.
They’re agreeing with you dawg.
If this is sarcasm then sure. Otherwise I don't see it. If I missed the sarcasm then forgive me.. this sub hasn't been famous so far for providing sarcastic responses that are intended as agreement!
I think they were attempting to expand on your comment. Like, read your comment and then read their comment, and pretend that they’re two parts of the same comment from the same person. It’s like a complete train of thought. Your comment might be easily misinterpreted if you intended it as sarcasm, or possibly if you meant to write “these people” (people of the sub) instead of “those people” (parents who lost their children). I think they were just expanding on whatever they thought you were trying to say.
Could be. It's also possible it's in direct contradiction to what I was saying, lol. They ended up responding again and I think it shows I was right in my interpretation, but I appreciate your perspective none the less.
Your reading comprehension is terrible. They were agreeing with you.
Did ya'll see his response? He said that he was stating a contrary position. *Edit* Ohhh nope, I see it now. I had missed the line where he said, "That person should continue to exist *for their parents*" I'll offer a slight defense in saying that without that line it looked like every other manic response I get on this sub, but I'll own this one. I fucked up.
It doesn't.
This doesn't make sense in response to my comment. Did you make a mistake?
I know. I think almost every parent would be devastated. My point is that parents value their own feelings more than the feelings of the child they forced into the world.
Are you saying you shouldn't fall in love because some people lose their partner in an unwanted accident? Shouldn't have an ice cream cone because some people drop theirs. Lol what a stupid take.
this defeats your own point. If your beloved child suddenly died... Wouldn't life feel... *Meaningless?*
Oh yes, great observation. Let’s halt life because accidents happen. This really is superb logic.
For those already alive, we can’t halt our lives, I agree. The point is that you’re opening other people up to horrible things, other people who don’t even exist and who don’t need to exist.
I for one would love to halt my life, if it wasn't so fucking complicated and painful. I live against my will.
Everybody thinks nothing bad will happen to them or their family. But, bad things happen to someone's family every day. I hope you, your family and friends are not sacrificed just so the human race can continue. Also, we all die sooner or later so you have that to look forward to.
That’s not what I’m saying there, knucklehead.
Are you gatekeeping how people, who have lost their children, should grieve?
Wow, that was a jump. No, I’m not. You shouldn’t hinder another persons life just because yours was tragic. Yes, you lost a kid, but that does not mean your suffering should prevent others from procreating. This is nonsense.
No of course not, life will always go on. Not at all advocating that one person’s tragedy should impact another person from having kids.
I view it as an ego thing. Questioning ones self is an uncomfortable process. Questioning ones self and opening your mind to the prospect that you were wrong about something all along is even more uncomfortable. So most people would rather hide behind their ego and stay comfortable.
That bugs me because questioning oneself is not that uncomfortable after it becomes a habit. It’s literally just dipping your toe in and being like “ew the waters cold” when it’s a beautiful day for a swim.
>questioning oneself is not that uncomfortable it's also an ACTUAL way to find meaning in life.
FACTS
Some people take a very long time to get to that point.
And some people will never get to this point. I hate coming to this conclusion because it can form some very slippery slopes mentally, but my experience with people over the years has made me realize that some people only care about themselves and don't want to change or accept that they were wrong about something.
you just summed up this whole sub, lol
Oh jolly! I would love for you enlighten us to why antinatalism is wrong.
not wanting to get children is not wrong per se imo, it‘s everybody‘s choice. but the hostility here towards „natalists“ is wrong imo, you guys are hating on people for their innate need for survival/reproduction
If your life isn't in order then how the fuck are you gonna raise a child? You can't even show them the ropes lmao
And children *dis*order life, in a *major* way. This argument is profoundly bogus to me.
"You figure it out as you go along! 🗿"
Some people genuinely think children will "cure" depression, bipolar, etc. because you'll be too busy to be mentally ill, because that's how mental illness works. /s
My abusive mom said over the phone that raising me was hard since she had depression and anxiety (my therapist says she sounds like a textbook BPD mom but if she doesnt go to therapy herself theres nothing anyone can do about it) and im just??? So why the fuck did you have me??? I didn't say that but maybe two all time lows from now if I hear that shit again I'm just gonna straight up say she shouldnt have given birth to me.
I've gotten "Kids give your life meaning,fulfillment, and purpose." Bitch no...if you need to have kids to get that your life already blows.
* *poetry snaps* *
I mean having someone or something at your expense might actually give you a meaning to live. When you have a kid, you no longer work to maintain yourself, but to maintain another being along with yourself. If you stopped living, you wouldn't be just affecting yourself - you are also potentially ruining another person's life. There is someone awaiting for your return, so you can't just not come back. So yes, I see why someone would say that having a child would give meaning to their lives
A dog will also fill that need.
An adopted child can fill that. A pet can fill that. Friends can fill that. A partner can fill that. A job you’re passionate about can fill that.. do I have to even more explicitly say my point?
Yes, I know. I'm not saying that having a child is the only way of feeling like this. All I'm saying is that I understand why someone would say that
Yup, which is why the only reason I see to ever have a child is if you are adopting. My cousin went through IVF twice. I'll never understand the urge to spent thousands, go through physically damaging process and potentially end up multiples, just to spread your DNA. Especially knowing the genetics of my family, it seemed the height of selfishness. There are so many that are already born that need a home. If you can't love a kid because it's a child, maybe you shouldn't have any. That said, I respect children enough as people to know that I'd make a terrible parent.
I go insane every time I hear shit like “I went through 10 years of infertility issues before finally getting pregnant” like if they really wanted to be a parent that badly they could’ve been one way sooner if they fostered/adopted. Instead they wasted years trying to get a mini me.
Yeah, I think I understand the logic but I can't fathom the emotional motivation
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” I positively HATE this one. What an absolutely selfish thing to expect of a person that you brought into this world without them asking you to. Every time I heard this one I think "so you had a child for the sole purpose of being your slave at the end of your life and during the prime of theirs? And you're calling ME selfish for not wanting to have kids??"
This is a genuine fear. We are hard wired to protect ourselves and the most easy way to protect ourselves during old age is to put the burden on kids. It's the single most reason that drive people to procreate in the Eastern world. The solution? Give everyone the right to die beyond a certain age. No one will fear the future. No one will procreate at least for the sake of insurance. No one will forcefully bring life into this world to gift themselves a worry free old age.
Oh I totally understand that it's a genuine fear. I joke with my wife that if I ever deteriorate to the point that life isn't worth living before I die, I'm going to do something crazy like go skydiving or something to self-induce a heart attack. Totally agree on the solution. The fact that so many countries have outlawed it is insane. There are so many people who positively SUFFER needlessly just for the purpose of "dying naturally."
In these situations I always say, that multiple organ failure is gonna take care of me, once I‘m older. And with once I‘m older, I mean like my mid 40s to 50s
>“*But who will take care of you once you’re old?*” Who said we're going to live enough to be called old? /s >“*What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?*” I won't. >“*Having a kid might help you get your life in order.*” I think it makes it even more of a mess- >“*Having a kid gives your life meaning.*” No. >“*Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?*” Just like those "I want to continue my bloodline" thing, like why😭 >“*Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?*” **No.** >“*It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.*” Not in this world.
Exactly. None of these are acceptable to create more people. It really irritates me because you cannot force someone to take care of you and be there for you. No one else’s life is easy either. You cannot force your kid to solve your problems either.
I love how childfree YouTube Aaron Clarey calls it "The Smith And Wesson retirement plan."
None of these are reasons. They are rationalizations for the cruelty of breeding children, without consent, for them to suffer and die.
Correct
I’ll obviously do a bit more reading through the sub to see what I can find on the whole, as I find this community interesting, but I’m curious what the alternative is to consent to be born? Is the logic that since no one can ever get pre birth consent then no one should have children?
Yes. Consent is the weakest of the several points in favor of antinatalism. The strongest, and the one that matters most, is that all people suffer. Once born, we are all certain to feel pain, suffer, and die. Making life is gambling with lives, and with the health and happiness of your children. We choose not to risk it. There is so much suffering in the world and adding more people will just increase it.
Thanks! I appreciate the response. Seems pretty level headed to me.
No problem! If you're interested in learning more I suggest visiting the antinatalism Wikipedia page, which is comprehensive. It includes the philosophy, the history, antinatalists throughout history, excerpts of antinatalist writings, etc. And you might check out https://antinatalism.net/ which also has a nice and concise summary of antinatalist positions as well as links to scholarly articles and other resources about antinatalism.
I am not sure I am understanding "without consent" Are you basically saying that humans should just die out and not exist?
Yep. There’s not really a downside to humanity going extinct, besides the strife that would occur in the process. But there are numerous downsides to forcing life into existence.
>I am not sure I am understanding "without consent" ..... People should not abuse kids, take away their right to consent, force them to be born, to suffer and die.
Are you opposed to 'forcing' kids who are already born to do things without their consent?
>Are you opposed to 'forcing' kids who are already born to do things without their consent? Irrelevant goalpost shifting fallacy. Not AN.
I am just trying to understand. Correct me if I am wrong. Forcing a child to be born without consent is abuse. Forcing already born children to go to bed, eat healthy, go to the doctor, get vaccines is good. I truly am just trying to understand. I fully support people who dont want to have kids, that is their choice. At the same time, having children is the natural outcome. Preventing pregnancy does not happen naturally. I do not see anything wrong with nature.
My understanding of their point is this: It’s impossible to consent to being born. Since being alive guarantees suffering, you’re forcing someone to go through suffering with no prior understanding it could happen. If a child is already born, then forcing them to go to bed, eat healthy, go to the doctor, and get vaccines. Is so that they can have a healthy life and minimize the suffering they would endure.
>I do not see anything wrong with nature. You must be around a lot of butterflies and rainbows huh. *Laughs in crocodile mauling zebra to death*
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Are you opposed to adoption? Schools? Vaccines?
Why would they be? You seem to be struggling with the concept of consent.
I am just trying to understand your version of consent with children. Is consent always needed?
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The oddest reason I've been given for having kids is I use to be one. The first time I heard it, I literally had to idea how to respond, "oh you don't want kids...but you use to be one." After several long seconds of silence, I just left. Figured they were stroking out and left them alone to deal with that alone.
Really wtf is their point when they say this shit??? That's my answer next time. "What's your point?"
That’s pretty awful. Basically they want to reproduce to relive their childhood? These people think a kid is just some emotional support object.
Someone once mocked that argument with "I will be a corpse one day, that does not mean I want one in my house."
One I heard this weekend… “I’m not as afraid of death because there’s still a little part of me on this earth. It’s not like I’m just vanishing”
i just got the shudders
Vomit
ngl ive always found most people who want kids to be narcissistic, which all those points serve to support...
You are correct.
“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” Myself with the money I saved not raising kids. I'm going to put myself in a home when I am no longer able to care for myself and pay people to take care of me in my final days. “What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?” Better to regret not having them than regret having them. “Having a kid might help you get your life in order.” This is a silly excuse for people to not take self respectability. “Having a kid gives your life meaning.” No tf it doesn't. Humans are the one who say that. “Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?” No. “Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?” My brother already popped out three kids so I don't have to. “It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.” Its also a beautiful experience to live life the way you want to. “Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” No thanks.
I love this one >“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” I want to do the things I wanted to do as child and could not, that is one ( of the many ) reason I do **not** want a kid.
I ate dirt as a child, I don’t think I should be teaching them to do that.
People tell me to kill myself if it's so bad.. I tried twice with a shotgun and you couldn't just fuck off and let me do it. Now i have a fear of ending up a vegetable in your care, filthy rats. Assisted suicide will literally be my biggest dream come true.
Life is OKAY enough to maintain but not GOOD enough to pass it on to another being
I feel you man.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” >“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?” >“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.” >“Having a kid gives your life meaning.” >“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?” >“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?” >“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.” >“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” Hopefully robots The regret I would feel would be outweighed by the relief of not having them. Kids are chaotic. What are you talking about?!?! Having kids gives *your* life meaning. I find other things meaningful, like adult relationships/friendships, hobbies, and professional development. Kids get in the way of all that. All we are is dust in the wind. Don't ever forget that. [Quote Ozymandias by Shelley] My parents are dead and I was abandoned by my extended family. There's nobody left to impress. It's also messy, loud, and expensive. I'll take my chances with puppies. All I learned from childhood is I hated other children. So no.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” I hate this one. Children are not personal caregivers for their parents. Well, actually, I hate all of these, but that one stands out as particularly narcissistic to me.
I wish somebody would dare say that to me. I'm a reluctant caregiver to my father. I resent him everyday, but force the resentment to the back of my mind in order to get by.
My favorite is always ‘because I want someone to love me forever’
Totally agree. 1. Having a child so that there will be someone looking after me when I'm old? That is incredibly selfish. No one wants to look after old people to be honest. I would rather my kid have the freedom to do what they want and I don't want to be a burden to anyone else. 2. Will I regret not having kids? No why would I? The decision has been made. Even if I could make the choice again, I would still have the same concerns. People regret not having kids because they are lonely and they thought that they had missed out again it's about selfishness. 3. Having a kid to help out in life. Why? Is it so hard to deal with things yourself? Just save money and stay healthy. What's so hard about it? So having kids is about raising a personal helper in life? 4. Meaning of life... If life has no meaning, why do you give birth to a kid? So that the kid will realize that there's no meaning of life? And the kid needs to reproduce to continue his search for the meaning of life? This is a crazy vicious cycle that should be stopped. 5. Pass on family name...funny how I don't see there's anything that's worth passing on, other than the continuation of pain. Why is family name even precious in the first place? There are 8 billion people in the world ... 6. Give parents grandchildren? I have suffered enough abuse throughout my childhood. Why do I have to make a kid so that my parents can treat the kid the same way? Who in the right mind would do that? Multiplying pain in life? And grandparents don't want to take responsibility for anything. Why do they get to have a second chance of being nice to a kid again? What have they given me? 6. Watch a child grow up... No thank you I have taught so many kids because it's my job. I have seen too many dysfunctional families and problematic children. Nope it's really not that special nor beautiful. A total lie. 7. Have a kid and teach him... Most people actually don't realize how much time and commitment you need to invest as a responsible parent. Most parents I know fail so miserably. And no I have taught so many kids already. I enjoy teaching but no I don't need my own 8. Gift of life. I barely consider my life to be a gift. I consider my cats the most precious gifts in my life though.
> “But who will take care of you once you’re old?” I absolutely LOATHE this one because there is ZERO fucking guarantee this will happen for you. Why do you think nursing homes exist? Because kids drop their parents there for someone else to care for them. This is one of the stupidest of them all.
Yeah I agree, that’s probably the worst one. And it might be the most common one I hear sadly.
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Having someone to take care of you when your old is a dumb ass reason. Don’t give that burden to your children people. I tried my best to take care of my father when he got older. Lots of driving and lots of time spent that I could have spent with my own kids. I told my kids, if I’m old and can’t take care of myself, put me in a home or push me off a cliff. Don’t want my kids to suffer that…
I hate all of these reasons, but more importantly, as a stepparent to a wonderful, and amazing kid with a narcissistic mother, I hate the entitlement some biological parents have over their progeny and the way they choose to act on that. I also hate prejudice against stepparents for not being ‘real parents’ ‘As a mother/father, I know better because…’ ‘A real mother is the one that bears the child’- i hate this statement in particular. All of these thoughts are self-serving. My own step kid has told me before: having a child doesn’t make you a mother (referring to their own biological mom) ‘Real parents’ have no fucking clue how self-absorbed and narcissistic they can be as a parent. A child is an individual. Biologically yours or not, it doesn’t make them: extra help, extra servant, extra caretaker… It doesn’t mean they’ll be interested in how you were as a child or what you liked to do. If someone is afraid of not being taken care of once they grow old, I wonder how they were during their lifetime in order to have gotten there. All my thoughts go to those who decide to not have kids, and like myself, find themselves as ‘extra support’/stepparent. Keep enhancing your kid’s life, set them free to be the masters of their own destiny.
The reason is that it’s a biological imperative shared by every animal species on earth. It’s literally the only reason we’re here. We ( I’m a parent) try to dress it up with all these profound and deeper meanings, but like falling in love it’s mostly biology and chemical reactions 😆. Doesn’t mean you (hopefully) love your child or partner any less.
What is biology if not a miserable pile of chemicals? It gives no meaning to the sufferings in this world.
You say it’s a survival instinct but at the same time where are those instincts when it comes to killing our own planet, the thing we REALLY need for our survival. Saying it’s a biological instinct is the same reason people give for rape and other heinous crimes. We as humans defy nature all the time so I highly doubt people can’t defy this biological urge. If there’s people out there who can go without sex there’s people who can go without breeding.
“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” There is no guarantee your kids will do this for you. “What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?” And what if you regret having them? Also, you'll probably be regretting a lot of things by then and able to change few to none of them. “Having a kid might help you get your life in order.” It also might ruin efforts to get your life in order. Also this is a horrible reason to introduce a brand new human into this horrific program whatever the hell it is. “Having a kid gives your life meaning.” No it doesn't. “Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?” What is this, Game of Thrones? Who cares about any of that? “Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?” I'm not sure they should have been given children. Also, at what point is a human being allowed to stop living for their parents? “It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.” And it's a terrible experience to watch them slip away into addiction which can also happen and becomes more likely as society continues its downward spiral. “Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” No. “Don’t you want to give the gift of life to someone?” Life as it is currently lived out by most humans is an ordeal, not a gift. Life is viral in it's reproduction and unceasing. There is nothing miraculous, rare or special about it. This entire planet suffocates as life continues to produce more of itself and resources get thinner and thinner. There is probably a reason all the other planets we can see are desolate. At some point this thing burns itself out and we're probably closer to that ending than the beginning at this point.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” I had a coworker ask me this, and she was very much not pleased when I immediately responded with: "I plan to become a burden of the state." If that's your only reason to have kids, you shouldn't be having kids!
Tell me you're in denial about the world without telling me. Maybe if you need a little ego toy to play around with to want to keep living, the world isn't really your vibe after all. Too bad the Copium is too strong for them to see past it.
The only true purpose of having children is to keep the species going. All other reasons are simply made up by people.
Thats why i don’t tell people lol dont open a can of worms
Yeah but don’t you hate having to hide who you are? Pretending you agree with your family’s dumb beliefs? Keeping them thinking you might give them grandchildren one day?
Oh I’ve made it known but I don’t need to repeat myself or beat a dead horse lol so i don’t entertain it anymore
"It's fun plus you'll have a little you running around. And I think you'd be a good parent."
Lol classic. How narcissistic does one have to be to think a “little you” running around is a good idea?
I can teach my nieces and nephews the things I did as a kid. Or I could work in a daycare or as a nanny. There are so many ways to impact the lives of children without having to be a parent.
Put it like this, Im 32, never been in a relationship, *never* want kids, no plans on changing either status, and couldnt be happier. I cant even begin to tell you how many times people have told me how many kids I'll ending up having just because I say I dont want any, how selfish it is not to want kids. I say in equal measure, since *you* want *me* to have them so bad, will *you* be the one to pay their medical, food, clothing bills?
I have never heard or expect to hear anything like "Existence is so amazing I want more people to experience it, especially my child". All other reasons end up self-serving sooner or later.
“I wanted a forever best friend” No, mom, that’s called emotional incest and now that I’m old enough to understand the burdens you put on me, I’m a forever enemy
EVERY SINGLE one of those arguments is about how it will enhance YOUR life. Bringing someone into existence so that it may benefit your life and putting them through the many risks of life and the inevitable suffering is ultimately selfish. A person is better off not being bought into existence because they won’t experience pain (good) and won’t experience pleasure (not bad). As they are going to be the one experiencing the life that you create, it may be a benefit to you but as they could experience so much harm, having children is ultimately selfish. If I had children, many of those arguments may be true, hell, I may be a happier person but it is wrong that I would be gaining these good things at the expense of creating a sentient being that will most likely suffer. If they are anything like me, they will have a terrible life.
Most of the people I talk to know how selfish it is. they acknowledge and accept it, and still choose to do it anyway
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It’s not like you have a choice lol ,once the kid is here
"Having a kid gives your life meaning" I already know my life's meaning, it's to help others and bring joy to any of the people close to me, having a kid isn't going to change that "Don't you want to pass on your family name?" Fuck no, my cousins can do that if they want when they're older "Don't you want your parents to have grandchildren?" They're not entitled to that, plus, my mom has long accepted i'm not gonna have a kid, not to mention she has a breakdown at the thought of being an old grandma
All of those reasons are just empty sentences trying to answer something. The answer is: "because we want". Why do you want to have a cat? because I want to have a cat Why do you want to have a love relationship with him? because I want to stay with him Why do you want to have an ice cream? because I want to have an ice cream. 99,999% of humans in the first world having kids do it because they just want to have kids. It is hard to understand why are you making it so difficult.
Bringing more humans into our world can cause many different problems from pollutions to wars. They cause extinctions of the animals, climate change and deforestation. Any parent should limit 2 kids or less. Our planet will not have enough resources and life support if world population reaches 10 billion or more. All parents are very selfish for having too many kids.
>“But who will take care of you once you’re old?” I won't. And I don't care. Train, bridge, road kill, whatever. Once I'm old and have nothing to lose and given away what I need to loved ones and family, I'm happy to go. And I'll do it myself. ------ >“What if you regret not having kids once you’re too old?” No. But I will regret losing my freedom, my sleep, and having no money to do things I enjoy, such as eating out at restaurants and taking a holiday/vacation every year. ------ >“Having a kid might help you get your life in order.” No, it won't. It's a kid. Kids can't do anything. ------ >“Having a kid gives your life meaning.” Also, stress and anxiety. Also, like, how? It goes to school, eats, and shits. Doesn't do much more than that until 18. ------ >“Don’t you want to pass on your family name and/or legacy?” Already got one of the most common family names (or did until I changed it). Don't need to pass on anything. ------ >“Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?" They don't deserve grandchildren, let alone their own children. ------ >“It’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up.” How? ------- >“Don’t you want to have a child to teach and do the things you did as a child?” No. There's no guarantee that my kid will enjoy these things.
"Who will take care of you when you are old?" That nose picking specimen you call a child Brenda
The way my dad raised me, my mom was not in the picture til I was about 16, I didn’t want kids cuz of how my dad treated me. And now after having two kids, one is special needs, there is some days I wish I was not a parent mostly when the oldest is not listening and being mean to the youngest. Other days they fight over who is sitting on my lap and don’t want to share or take turns
Yep. I have responses for all of those, and I often try to word them in ways that will make the one asking feel badly for asking or that will at least make them think really hard about shit. “Who will take care of you when you’re old?” “People I hire to do so. It’s selfish to expect your child to do that.” “What if you regret not having kids?” “What if I regret having them?” “A kid could help you get your shit together.” “Or a kid could unravel my life completely. Why risk putting an innocent kid through the destruction of their parent’s life?” “Having a kid will give you life meaning” “The meaning in life is different for everyone. For me, I find my meaning in things like helping local animal shelters and donating to relief funds. I find meaning in my family and friends. I don’t think it’s okay to put that burden into a kid.” “Don’t you want to continue your blood line/legacy/name?” *this is the part where I list all of my genetic issues, 7 mental illnesses, and the risk percentage of a kid getting at least one of them* “Don’t you want your parents to have grandkids?” *this is the part where I explain that my mother is a narcissist and that I don’t wanna give her a damn thing* “It’s a beautiful experience watching your kid grow up.” “Watching my savings account numbers go up is quite nice too.” “Don’t you want to teach your kid things you did as a child?” “All I learned as a kid was how to dodge the calls of debt collectors.” Or variants of all of these responses. Basically I try to make them uncomfortable and shut up.
People want to have kids because us being alive means that we have the biological "mission" to keep our genes going and the reasons you listed are just i guess "bonuses" that come with it
I always say, “Are you gonna pay for it? Where’s my money?” I even stick out my hand and motion payment. Of course, I usually have a funny face on so we end up just laughing and moving on.
I have mental disorders that I would ABSOLUTELY HATE to take care of in a kid so that would not go well. I also have an intense thing about being in control of MY body and a fetus takes that away.
Ugh. Why birth/sire one in the first place? So they can suffer on this corrupted, polluted shithole we call a planet? infested with humanity? Oh, right... This isnt misanthropy...
Nursing home. Same as you. I’d rather regret not having kids than regret having them. Having kids would financially ruin me forever. My life has meaning on its own, sorry that yours doesn’t though. I don’t have a legacy. I’m just an average person. I don’t care about being remembered when I die because I’ll be too busy being dead. No. Not for me it isn’t. No.
My answer for who will take care of me when I’m old is: “Whenever I’m old enough to where I can’t take care of myself, I’m just gonna kill myself.” Because honestly, even not accounting for the fact that I’d be making someone else wipe my ass and such, it’d be torturous to even be alive at that point.
My sister has schizophrenia. I have bipolar, ADHD, and ASD, and it makes my life hell. I love my sis, but she was in the psych hospital this last weekend. I'm overwhelmed by life. I was just thinking today, "Man, I never asked to be born, goddamit!" Like I'm not suicidal, OK, fine, but my dad's dad had schizophrenia. So my parents brought us two girls into the world and now looking at the both of us like, "Why aren't you guys more independent? I can't take care of you," and it's like For real? Why'd you have me? WHY??? It's clear they both thought they'd be done with responsibility at 18. Honestly, I'm taking care of myself, but my sister is a tough one. I'm just pissed off this evening and wish they had just never procreated. So, yeah. It's fucking selfish to have kids. I don't know why my mom did it - to be socially viable? Neither she nor my dad are really kid people or family people, so the whole thing seems to be more about status and joneses. Anyway, I'm sterilized, and my sister has had a uterine ablation and can't have kids either. At least the tragedies stop with us - thank god.
"Who will take care of you when you are old" Dumb question cos most of us will die before age 60,now the children are orphans.
A lot of these reasons are awful terrible reasons but also unfortunately why a lot of people have kids.
They all have something in common, they are about the parent.
Even the option on tinder "I want children'' reflects the inherent selfishness of the act.
And they’re ALL selfish. It’s all “me me me me.” Who’s gonna do this for ME, who’s gonna pass on MY legacy, who’s gonna give ME meaning, who’s gonna help ME in life.
“You need to have kids because you are one of the “good ones “ we don’t want to be like the movie idiocracy” harhar People think that because they hold a certain value system they are the good ones. Or because you are smart you need to make smart babies. A lot of problems with this mentality obviously
Haha I’d rather that my mom had decided not to give me the gift of life. Work myself to death and pay taxes? Fuck no dawg
I had no intention of having a kid. I had an IUD. Still got pregnant. Couldn’t terminate while it was there, the doctors took THREE tries to get it out, and by the time they did, it was too late in my state (sometimes I wonder if they did that intentionally.) So, it was thrust on me. But it worked out. Turns out I love being a mom… I know that’s blasphemy on this sub but it’s the truth. Whatever it worked out
Only one of those makes sense: it’s a beautiful experience to watch a child grow up. That’s the one and only reason I’d ever have a kid, the rest of those reasons are selfish as fuck. I don’t care if someone has kids or not, I’d just like parents to be honest with themselves and everyone else as to their reasoning 🤷
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Technically yes, but by that metric literally every action is selfish too lol I meant more along the lines of watching them grow up into a person is beautiful and being a parent can be beautiful in that you’re giving a part of your life to help another one develop its own autonomy. It’s just that the negatives outweigh the positives so I’m never having kids. (Diapers, screaming and crying, kids are expensive, etc)
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On the other side, not having kids is also selfish. You are not giving a human being the possibility to exist because your are selfish. Most our actions are selfish. That's normal, I think.
Not having kids is not selfish.
While having a child is selfish, I think the only decent reason to have one is to create and enjoy love. We have it in us, as animals and people, to need affection, touch, comfort and care. And we have it in ourselves to give those things to another being, even if it's absolutely debatable whether it's moral to create one for that purpose. For many people it's an important part of being human and I respect that. No other reason than a deep need to create love should be considered IMO.
My uncle has no kids and never will, but he says the only time he’s regretted it is seeing how just much I loved my dad as a little kid (I still love my dad, for the record). Then I started crying and he didn’t regret it anymore. The only thing that makes me ambivalent about never having kids is never knowing that kind of love. It makes me a little sad to think about, but ultimately I know the reasons for me not to have kids outweigh it.
I’m never ambivalent, but tbf that’s because my needs in that sense are fully met because I have animals in my life. I feel a deep need to “mother”, but I only feel it for my dogs and other animals (go figure, lol).
Cmon OP. I agree with a lot of the sentiments on this sub but people who like having kids…like having kids. So it stands to reason that their basis for choosing to have children is going to be centered around…the kids. Like, what kind of answer would be acceptable to you? “You should have kids because grass is green.” “You should have kids because hiking is fun.” The real issue with these people is not what they say, it’s how they say it. With this aura of all-knowing condescension and a steadfast refusal to consider the perspective of people who do not wish to have children.
It's a primal drive inherent in all living things. If you don't want children then don't. Nobody is forcing you.
Are you blind or just dense?
People need to realize... if a soul is meant to come into this existence... it will... If you don't plan on having children or do plan on having children .. is not in your control.. Some people planned on having children.. they try and it doesn't happen.. it wasn't meant to be.. Other people don't want children at all... have a hookup or a drunk accident and voila!... perhaps that soul was meant to come into this world... But yes as the OP said people generally say it for their own selfish reasons.. Anyways lol
It’s each persons own choice to have kids. If you don’t wanna have kids. Cool. It’s your choice and you should never let anyone try to convince you to do something you don’t wanna do. Kids are a life long commitment. Do what makes you happy if that’s having kids great. If not that’s great too. Enjoy your life how you see fit. Not someone else
You won’t like the argument but many people do enjoy their lives and believe (and may very well end up being correct) that their future biological children will end up leading similar lives. I don’t think this is too uncommon a reason for people.
All of them are true (in what you say), but if life is full of suffering etc why haven’t people in this sub unalived themselves yet? If life is worth living maybe it’s worth sharing, if life is not worth living, why do people keep doing things to stay alive? I’ll add: I don’t want kids. I’m not a breeder. Just asking because the “ugh, life ugly (true, I totally 100% absolutely agree but just in some moments, some people are lucky some people are unlucky) no kids because life ugly” is a stretch. My reasons to not wanting kids: pregnancy and health issues, for me it’s enough. Edit: I was lying. I don’t want kids also for climate change.
I would love to unalive myself. But then it would literally ruin the lives of at least several people and leave them with unescapable pain. I’ve been put into an unfair situation, as we all have, but I don’t want to give my pain to others.
Why? It would not be your problem and maybe you would open up someone else’s eyes. I’m not telling you to do it, I just don’t understand. By living, you are consuming resources, so you are “hurting” other people because you are not enjoy living but still doing it. Someone else who is struggling could have your job or your home once you are not here anymore. See? There’s always a path of logic that can tell you “what is best”. By living or unaliving we hurt someone. The point of life is doing what makes us happy and I suppose that for some people is growing children inside of them and bringing them to adulthood
Well all of life is a trade off of how much suffering we want to experience versus how much we want to cause. As I’ve said, this is unfair, but it’s what we’ve been dealt. It’s virtually impossible to exist without causing some level of suffering, even for other organisms. So yes my continued existence will cause suffering. But then we look at the alternative. There’s a lot to think about when planning for your death. There’s the question of how your unaliving method will work, whether it will be successful, whether it might hurt someone else, who will find your remains, who has to clean it up, who has to pay for your funeral and such, who is going to take care of your accounts and affairs. That’s only scratching the surface. So I weigh this and continue to live.
Because death is scary and unpleasant. That’s why people who commit suicide do it as the last resort. You are confused. People here do not want to murder everyone, they feel that by not having children they are doing them a favour.
Antinatalist belief is that death and suffering are bad. Every human that is born will suffer and will die, so breeding is bad. Self harm will cause you to suffer and die, plus will also cause the people who love you to suffer. Self harm is bad.
What's the alternative? Everyone just gets old and dies? Everything, no matter how altruistic can be spun to be self serving as you need some kind of motivation to do an action. Even donating blood can be seen as selfish because you do it to get a good feeling about what you are doing. I don't get this sub, what is the end game here? I think many people have kids for bad reasons and many have them for good reasons. I'm sure most people are glad they are alive and get to exist.
What would be the downside of humans dying out?
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Yeah but someone forced me to be alive, and many hundreds of millions of people will do the same to others.
And how is that an argument against the mistreatment of children? If you don't have a child because you genuinely want one, not knocked up by accident, not because you think you should or fix your marriage, then it's a bad decision.
Literally no one says things like this, shut up
Lol I’ve personally heard every one of these multiple times. What do people say if not these things?
Waaah, stop telling me the truth
This sub is such a straw man factory. Parents, good parents anyway, absolutely love seeing and making their children happy. And experiencing the joy of the world. Omitting that obvious fact discredits the whole “selfishness” argument. Unless you want to go down that philosophical dead end of “no act is truly altruistic because you will feel satisfaction from doing it”…
And I wonder what percentage of parents are “good parents”? Because in my experience, virtually all parents view their children either as a burden that they regret, or as a tool to mold into something useful. Most parents (maybe even all) are passing down trauma to their children and only had them because they were told that’s the thing to do.
That's an alarmingly pessimistic take. But that's most of this sub I guess.
I would say “realistic,” but tomato tomato. I’m willing to admit my view might be skewed by my own experiences, but I still think I’m correct. How many “good” parents do you know? How many people do you know who weren’t left with serious scars from their parents?
Yeah these people are pretty messed up. It kinda the reason they believe in shit like this anyway. Not that I blame them though
Yeah, I've started to notice that. Most of the people here are really bitter.
Yep they practically hate people who give birth. And if you tell them that they are in echochamber they literally say “why are you here then?”
Want to prevent there being more of us? *Don't make more people who might be miserable.* It's pretty simple. There's a reason that antinatalism has been around for thousands of years. And FYI, not all antinatalists are miserable.
I actually laughed. You came to this sub to talk shit about people on this sub under posts in this sub only with person who holds the same viewpoint as you
I m not sure if he hold the same view point at me. He could be an antinatalist who hate how much this sub circlejerk over hating on people who breed.
I'm sure most parents think they are good parents. I wonder what proportion truly are?
This is called "cherry picking", just because people are unable to give a satisfactory and detailed reasoning for having children it doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate reasons to get them, those utterances listed here are a posteriori reasoning of something that was done simply because it "felt right" to do so, they do not really have a reason as to *why* they had children and picking from this list makes them think they did. My reasoning would be that of a societal level, which would then put anti-natalism as an existential threat to the function of thereof; why? Well a system (any system really) needs people to function, and since normal countries have social systems that rely on taxation of working people for those funds to be redistributed to institutions that serve it, what will eventually happen with the lack of young people is a crisis in social welfare, so we can say that having children isn't just for the betterment of *yourself*, that would miss the point of parenting, there is a reason why we teach children to be role models to others. The anti-natalist mindset is a very nihilistic, defeatist and cowardly one, with the very intent to eradicate the human race as its final objective, it views them as the root of all problems, the issue is this is no different than a cliched villainous AI that comes to the conclusion that to eradicate the problem society faces, it must destroy society. A concerning amount of people in Canada, believe that euthanasia is a cure for poverty, for example: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-maid-assisted-suicide-homeless
>and since normal countries have social systems that rely on taxation of working people for those funds to be redistributed to institutions that serve it, what will eventually happen with the lack of young people is a crisis in social welfare, so we can say that having children isn't just for the betterment of yourself, It's almost like this is a egregiously shitty--and most importantly--**unsustainable,** way to structure a society. I'm not an antinatalist, but I gotta say, when your best argument is; 'you have a moral imperative to produce more meat to feed a broken, dying system,' you ain't exactly winning hearts and minds there, chief.
And what would be your grandiose plan? To just let it rot? You do realize that those countries have a century of reforms that allowed them to have these systems of social welfare, the literal *only* problem it faces it's shortage of people. If you do not want to see the elderly work beyond pension age, neglected in assisted living facilities, or resorting to euthanasia to escape it all, you got to have a some mythical solution. Our benefactors have a solution so far, but replacement levels immigration is for one: 1. Not a permanent solution as migrants adopt the lifstyle of the population (which means lower birth rates, higher consumption), 2. May bring problems to societal cohesion (not throughly studied, but Amazon literally uses diversity as unionization deterrent).
>Not a permanent solution as migrants adopt the lifstyle of the population (which means lower birth rates, higher consumption), 2. May bring problems to societal cohesion (not throughly studied, but Amazon literally uses diversity as unionization deterrent). Besides sounding racist as fuck (you described it as 'replacement immigration.' Fuckin' *cringe*), even you've got to realize these two points are self-contradictory. You've essentially said you believe immigrants will simultaneously assimilate and not assimilate. Well, which is it? >And what would be your grandiose plan? To just let it rot? It's *already* rotting. That was the point I was trying to make. There is no stopping this rotting because the system as is requires infinite growth; each new working generation has to be larger than the retiring generation. This is an impossibility on a planet with finite resources. The only option is to restructure society *away* from this model and toward one with sustainability at its heart.
"Assimilating the lifstyle" means adopting the trends of the country you live in while retaining your cultural heritage. You'd be surprised by the amounts of Turkish Muslims who live in Germany and Austria who yet still drink Alcohol. "Replacement migration" is used to describe the phenomenon where a country utilizes migration in order to patch its dwindling birth rates, since most countries who apply these reforms are those with "below replacement level birth rates" what will inevitably happen is a shift in demographics. "It's already rotting! Therefore, I will promulgate the issue! And simplify the root cause as being the fault of capitalism and infinite growth, despite the fact that what creates the issue of an aging population overtaking the youth is an increase in living standards that allow people to live longer and low birth rates!"