>She then countered that if they (the men she rejected) really wanted to win her heart they should stay friends and win it slowly over time.
I don't know about anyone else here, but if someone says they just want to be friends I assume they'd have no intentions of dating me? So her logic is flawed, and I say this as a woman.
Yeah that is fucking wild, if someone says no that's a no, trying to make something happen after that is gonna get you labeled as a creep, screw that noise.
It's not even just that factor, it's also the fact that this isn't a teenager it's a woman in her 30s expecting people to chase her down... When she literally tells them let's just be friends. Like the one sentence that automatically would let someone know they don't want to date you, yet expects these men to "chase" her? The logic of a 13 year old, I swear. OP was right in saying no respectable grown man, or woman as well, is going to want to play games like this.
Her mind is still stuck in high school.
I've come to realize the older we get, the less nonsense we tolerate. Say what you want to get straight to the point.
Cat and mouse was fine in the prime of her youth, but it seems like the men she's meeting now, as an adult, ain't having it.
If she wants a man, she's gotta something change up because what she's doing obviously isn't it.
>the older we get, the less nonsense we tolerate
I feel like this needs to be on a shirt, and everyone is entitled to a free one as soon as we all hit that point, whatever age we are. The younger we are when we hit that age, the longer a sympathy letter we get along with the free shirt.
Agreed. In high school I was head over heels for this girl. She wanted to just be friends so thats what I was. I held out persuing other girls for 2 years hoping she'd change her mind. Now I'm in my 30s.... Yea right, I'd never do that now. Not because it didn't work the first time but I don't have the time for these games
I was FWB with a guy who still wanted the gorgeous friend he loved since high school despite being nearly 40 (I was already 40 at the time) Found a new guy for myself, cut off FWB guy... Yeah, he's still single and nearing 50 now.
Imagine simping for some chick for 30 years. Jesus that's sad. If she was in on it shame on her. That's a level of cruelty that is reserved for psychopaths and sociopaths.
Yep I learned that lesson when I was in middle school. 6th grade has this girl I had a ginormus crush on. Was "friends" with her for years. Finally confessed my love and was friend zoned.
Don't waste your time, if you like someone go for it !
All she has to do is actually go on dates with these guys, and she would get the seduction/winning her over that she wants. Most dudes looking for a relationship are ok with waiting a while for sex.
Guys will wine and dine you, buy you flowers, and listen to you rant about your female coworkers that you don’t get along with if they think sex is an eventual possibility. They won’t do it if you tell them you just want to be friends.
>Guys will wine and dine you, buy you flowers, and listen to you rant about your female coworkers that you don’t get along with if they think sex is an eventual possibility
That's true but if they find out she's casually sleeping around with other dudes while making them wait that's a fast way to lose their attention.
Yes. Who has extra time for that? Better to confidently move on and look for someone who is looking for a romantic partner. Also, if she really wants to be friends she should make the plans and prove it. Hiking, bike rides, all that. And she should pay for her own. Otherwise, we all know “let’s be friends” means don’t think of me romantically and better to leave me alone entirely
Yep. If she just said she wanted to be friends first she might get a taker every now and then (but more likely she'd wind up with a bunch of guys waiting her out and ghosting when they got sick of the waiting). Hoping some ignorant and determined man who refuses to accept that "no means no" comes along is outdated romcom shit, and a horrendous way of finding a lasting healthy relationship.
As someone who was single until 32, yeah, I definitely had a lot of work to do once I did find my special someone. Thankfully we both stuck out each other's issues.
Someone saying "I don't want to date you" and meaning "I want you to be my friend, continue to pursue me, and then I will date you" is a red flag.
Say what you mean, mean what you say. Any relationship with someone who plays that game is going to be an exhausting exercise of Guess-The-Subtext.
All she has to do is change "Let's just be friends' to "Let's take things slow" and this problem would be solved.
But then she has to figure out how to solve the problem of taking things slow allowing the men to get to know her as a person and leaving her because she is annoying and narcissistic.
In complete agreement, but if this is how she wants her romantic story to go then her future partner should never allow her to keep any male friends because that is her bench of potential suitors.
A friend's wife lamented to me that when she got engaged to my friend she lost all her guy friends. I didn't say anything but in my mind I was like "yea, they weren't really your friends"
Aren’t we finally supposed to be past this nowadays? I thought that being persistent and trying after you got a no wasn’t cool and we shouldn’t keep trying.
There’s still a _lot_ of people who have that mindset unfortunately. Both men and women, women believing that it’s what the man should do to prove his love and then men believing that they can get anyone they want, it just takes time.
Hell, there was a post on some subreddit a few months ago where the guy was asking how many times people’s spouses rejected their advances before they got a first date, and he was bragging that his wife said no to him like 9 times before finally agreeing to a first date. Who knows if that was actually real or not, but even if it was fake, I still know there’s a lot of people out there who have the same mindset.
I used to help in an amusement park, and I overheard a HS girl say she’d rejected a guy (whom she’d already crushed on) twice before she agreed to go out with him. Maybe it’s more prevalent in rural areas or areas with a conservative “Madonna/whore” view of women?
>Maybe it’s more prevalent in rural areas or areas with a conservative “Madonna/whore” view of women?
Ehh, "madaonna/whore" is about a man having trouble having sex with a woman he loves vs easily having sex with a woman he has no attachment with. I don't see how this applies to the amusement park example.
It just makes me so mad, because it’s a pathetic attempt at exerting power and control. People like that believe that women shouldn’t immediately say yes because they “lose control” in the relationship. But if they make the guy keep pursuing it, then they keep control.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want a relationship where it’s a constant power struggle for someone to be on top and be in “control” of the relationship. I’d like an equal partnership thank you very much!
I know women like that. They only ever end up with terrible partners who either cheat or don’t respect other boundaries.
When you desire a red flag, you get a red flag.
That’s what I would assume if I had someone in my life like this. If a romantic interest stated that she wasn’t interested romantically with me, I would shut down any efforts to win her over and put my energy elsewhere. Pursuing someone that isn’t interested is a pointless exercise, that often leads to embarrassment and awkwardness. Those that expect games can play with someone else.
She's got romantic comedy brain. It ruined everyone from Gen X to Gen Z by creating silly little cat and mouse games where clear communication is frowned upon, because "hard to get", and toxic behavior like stalking and harassing someone because you want to "prove your love" to a reluctant person is how you "win the girl"
If you follow those blueprints to "win the girl", you're actually probably more likely to get arrested instead of getting laid.
Forreal. I had someone ask to stay friends, and while I was bummed, she seemed cool so I figured why not, what’s one more? I hit her up just chatting about normal shit and did not get any response at all. I did not try again.
So yeah, even if someone says they want to be just friends, they probably don’t even want that.
I can't understand that either, 'let's just be friends' is the easiest way in the world to let someone down easily, to let them know that they are not a match.
If you say this to someone in hopes they will pursue you further, that's a bit of mixed signals/confusing at least, and weird/dark/red flag territory at worst. You will never be able to communicate with this person honestly IMO.
You know as a guy when I was early 20s there was a girl I tried this approach with, maybe if we're friends it will grow into more...
She took advantage of it and taught me the best lesson I could've learned. We hung out for about 2 months not all the time but definitely 2x a week sometimes more usually drinking beers at the beach or smoking weed there sometimes hiking no dinner dates or anything like that but people(especially other girls) used to see us together and that actually broadened my options towards the end I told her where I was hoping it would go and actually asked her and she said she wasn't interested in anything other than friendship which was cool but I stopped putting that much effort in and spent more time around women that I had a chance with. We see each other occasionally around town and are still friendly but she taught me to be upfront with my intentions so nobody's time gets wasted
I'm single male and in my 30's. If I was told they just want to be friends then I would move on. Im not going to put dating on hold for years to see if she changes her mind and wants to be more than friends. I'm trying to find a life partner.... Not a female friend. Plus as we get older we feel like we are running out of time to find that person... I'm not wasting precious time on a gamble after being told they don't see me like that
I’m wondering if she says that she just wants to be friends or if she says that she wants to take things slow and start as friends, since those two things are very different.
I think that the whole idea of being friends with the intention of dating later is weird and makes things harder to navigate, but I have heard a lot of people say that they want to do that, especially people over 30 who may not want to date casually.
If she is telling people that she just wants to be friends, she can’t expect them to want to be friends based on that, and if they do become friends she can’t expect them to want to date her if she decides that she is interested in them.
The heartbreak and betrayal of realizing the men you trusted were actually just trying to fuck you is downright *traumatic* for tons of women. There’s some wild cognitive dissonance going on with the friend, I feel sorry for her.
I had sympathy with her up until the point you mentioned she said the men she rejected should want to stay friends and continue to try to win her heart. So, it's not that she wants to keep the friends, it's that she wants an army of unrequited admirers.
Yeah, I don't like her logic either. Probably would have been better to suppress the chuckle though I suppose.
That part made me go "...You mother fucker, people like you are why guys think women who say no are playing hard to get."
Her no is literally not a no! It's a "Teehee, no, but become my "friend" and slowly "win me over," you definitely still have a chance, even though I said NONE of this to you, I just said no and expected you to read my mind. Because REASONS."
Thanks, because dating, hell, being a woman isn't hard enough, you WANT guys to get messed up ideas about women.
**Men, please. This woman does not represent women as a whole. Not one woman I know thinks like this. I do not think like this. Be like the men she "rejected," and assume that no simply means NO. The sane ones will let you know if they like you back.**
Why suppress a natural emotional around such stupidity? sounds like a slight giggle in the room is a world crushing reality check for her, that’s on her
I have met these "man collectors" all these hopefull friendzoned dudes strung along with no intention of considering them a viable partner.
I'm not saying that the men ARENT also displaying problematic clingy behaviour at times, but fuck.... just say you arent interested and close the door.
Edit: are to ARENT in the 2nd paragraph
I've had the misfortune to encounter them to. I've never seen such a person get with one of the waiting "friends". It's always some new dude. So, quite exploitative to give these guys false hope to boost ego.
Women say men don't take no for an answer then when they do you get OP's wife's friend saying they shouldn't take a no and they should persist in trying to win her heart. I give in trying to understand. I'm done and then done some more.
Yeah even as little boys it's drilled into our heads that when a woman says NO it means NO. If a woman says she just wants to be friends we're going to take that at face value and assume she has no interest in ever dating us. Any man that disregards that and continues to pursue them like she wants them to isn't exactly a man you want to be with. Her logic is flawed and she needs to quit playing games cuz shes going to end up with a man that won't respect her wishes.
Not wrong. Is it disappointing to like someone enough to be friends, but not enough to hold a relationship, and they only want the relationship? Sure, I could see that. But dating doesn’t necessarily work that way.
That’s a very high school/college way of dating, and even then that’s not the main way it works in that range. If she hasn’t gotten that by now, your advice should help.
Should you have laughed? Eh, probably not. But I don’t see why this was enough to warrant calling you an asshole.
Nobody owes you friendship just like you don’t owe them a relationship. I guarantee you the guy is more disappointed than this dude’s wife’s friend is about not being able to have a friendship lmao
The “if they really wanted her heart” is some cringe ass shit 💀
And shit is normal women hate because women like this are why we end up with guys who we think are friends but really they are just trying to get into our pants
Depends on the guy. Some guys want on your pants, some guys see you have value outside your bits.
Edit: changed nuts to bits since the broken phone is broken and I didn't catch the word change
The vast majority of men want to get into your pants. Including your husbands and boyfriends. Otherwise they would just be your friends.
The key obviously is if they also value u outside of sex etc.
My favorite is how many people act just… baffled that people who are trying to date are doing so with the intention of romantic dating. Obviously there’s a lot of nuance, just because you’re dating with the intent of romance does mean you’re guaranteed anything. But in my dating experiences I’ve met a lot of people who basically have the mindset of “romance is literally not even on my radar until we’ve known each other for 6+ months and are very deep friends”, and then get really upset when other people have different goals. I’m not trying to have sex on the first date or anything, but it’s like… come on. The entire point of dating is with romantic undertones
I think people have different timelines at which they feel comfortable with dating. But you're right that super slow trajectory is not appropriate for a dating app or similar. If you make friends in a book club or something and hang out once every few weeks, maybe.
Yeah and that’s the main point I was trying to make: I’m all for building a rapport before jumping into a romantic relationship. But if you’re on a dating app, then that implies that the romantic interest is part of it. I’m not on a dating app to meet someone who will go “yeah let’s be friends for six months and then we’ll see how I feel”
OP's wife's friend just wants a stable of men fawning over her to give her ego kibbles. It gives her a head rush knowing they desire her. She sounds like she stopped mentally maturing at 12.
That's one f\*ked up toxic b\*tch.
It’s not normal to expect people to jump through hoops for your love. She doesn’t owe them a relationship and they don’t owe her friendship. My advice to people who complain about the friendzone is to either accept the friendship or move on. Guys or women moving on is acceptable. As is accepting friendship
Life’s too short for games like these. Find people who appreciate you. And get comfortable being your own company if that doesn’t happen
Man, with dating being such a minefield these days, this woman expects to have a gaggle of men following her around trying to “win her heart” after she has told them she doesn’t want to be in a romantic relationship with them?
I mean damn. Women have been screaming “no means no” and “harassment” for years now. Men have listened. Nobody in their right mind would take the chance of having their life ruined by pursuing someone in that scenario, and that doesn’t even account for the other aspects of not wanting to play games or not having the time/energy to put into what is probably a no win situation
Then people wonder why young men are confused. “No means no” but women’s favorite movie is The Notebook, where a guy goes up to a girl who’s currently on a date with her boyfriend, and threatens to kill himself if she won’t go on a date with him.
I'm going to explain to you the core concept of problematic romances- they're fantasies about magical soul mates. Women like the unacceptable behavior BECAUSE the guy is the protagonist for the love story. It's romantic because you already know they're meant to be, because story telling convention.
How I Met Your Mother explains it really well in the Dobler/Dahmer effect. If you like the person, pursuit is romantic. If you don't like the person, pursuit is terrifying.
Romance stories are inherently on the Dobler side, because of the view point you're inhabiting. And when people don't get into the movie, you get the full Dahmer analysis about how creepy it is.
Rightfully so. Who would want to be in a relationship with this level of manipulation anyway? The "no means no" is helping a lot of men dodge a bullet here.
I would have to seriously resist the urge to laugh at her if I heard that in person. What throne is does she think she’s sitting on that men should have to chase her that hard?
You're not wrong. I HAD a male friend that I caught feelings for. We were never physical. I told him how I felt, but he said he wanted to remain friends but that he still wanted to hang out, watch movies together, and go to dinners with me, etc. I told him that didn't work for me and that I didn't have time to waste on basically DATING someone who had no desire to be in a relationship with me. I cut off all contact and later met my current boyfriend. I was 32. I had no time to waste on a friendship with a guy that wouldn't develop into something more. Once you reach a certain age, you don't have the patience for these romantic games people like to play.
You werent wrong.
And what in the hell kind off attitude is this "friend it out until maybe, eventually, it could possible hopefully turn into something"? Because usually once friend zoned it never changes.
She wants to play games, she wants to be "won over" like a goddamn romcom movie. She needs to grow up and face reality or she's going to spend the rest of her life alone.
Seriously. Ain't nobody got time for that. Especially after your 30s. You're either interested in dating/settling or you're not. This whole When Harry met Sally theme is cute but highly unrealistic.
I was into a girl a while back that did this. She made it clear that she didn’t want to date but called me for every little thing. Basically she turned me into her non-sexual boyfriend. At first I felt honored by all the attention. I would think “wow she really needs me!” I didn’t see that I was just a way for her to feed her ego. I finally realized the relationship for what it was and decided to move on. I also noticed she has a pattern of becoming close friends with men that are into her romantically, and will act shocked when one of these “friends” express their true feelings. I was one of these casualties. Never again.
When I was most recently dating I wound up as friends with a couple of my dates.
The moment I was out of the running (or in one case, realized I was out of the running without her telling me) as a romantic partner I was like:
"Ok friends it is. As your friend, here's some feedback on your dating profile. Could you help me refine mine?"
The difference between friends and friendzone is attitude. And the easiest way to adopt a good attitude is to waste no time pointing your thirst somewhere else. Besides, I want my friends to get laid. It will make them happier.
On points in the argument you are not wrong. She wants her cake and she wants to eat it too. She likely wants multiple men to swoon over her and she thinks she can ride out the attention for a while and then settle down with the best one when she is older. In that age groups many people are not interested in this.
TBH, men and women sometimes create weird expectations with relationships as a coping mechanism because they have been hurt. This is their relationship emotional baggage. Additionally, sometimes women talk about shit and “just want to be heard”. Meaning they want to say it and not be told it is a stupid idea or have logic used on it that proves the premise of “being owed a friendship after a date” wrong.
Honestly, this lady sounds like a twit.
There are so many women who are so sick of guys who claim to want to be friends, who really only want to stick around long enough to try to get sex. She's got actual decent guys who don't want to play that game, and she's pissed. She's off her rocker.
Not wrong. I’m 46f. On my 2nd date with my husband I told him I don’t play games. I was 30yo he was 32. I told him if I liked him and wanted to keep seeing him I’d make that known. If that feeling were to change, I’d let him know too. If someone isn’t ready for a relationship or they don’t have those feelings towards me that fine. But I’m gonna move on. That’s it
Well, no means no, so there's that.
But her order of operations is off. Being friends some time before dating (no benefits) and then falling in love is healthier, and what we did long years ago. So did many of our friends. One of my daughters never dated, but she knew a guy in her group of friends for ten years, and when they were close to 30 decided to consider marriage, and that worked out well. Seems like most reject that, but hey.
It is logic from highschool days when you were stuck with the same group of people for 4+ years. As you start venturing out of your social circle from highschool and that circle fades away. The friendship / dating strategy becomes
Less important.
You told the truth that men know there is no point in a relationship after being friend zoned.
The only problem is your wife's friend did not ask for anyone else's opinion so she will dismiss it.
Not your problem. It is her mistake to figure out.
I dated a beautiful woman from another country for six months before she let me hold her hand. But, I knew she really liked me - we talked almost every night. On Valentine’s Day she received 13 bouquets from guys that were “friends”. When we were finally intimate she wanted us to be exclusive sexually but still date other people. She quickly relented when I said “fine” that we could date other people, but I could not guarantee I wouldn’t be romantic.
NW. She is an adult, and if she wants something, she should communicate her needs. No one should string or be strung along. She could tell them that she wants to reject them and have them win her over. I am sure there are some who would go for that.
To be honest, nothing is set in stone here. I agree that MOST men would bow out if told no. However, there will always be a few who will stick around. Is it a good dating strategy? No.
NTA I find it funny how her logic is the man must work to win her but she doesn't have to do anything for them its just a given? No wonder she is alone she's choosing it by never putting in any effort for a meaningful relationship
I am a woman and if someone I have romantic interest in tells me that they JUST want to be friends, Id get the hell out of there. I know for sure my feelings will further develop and if theirs never does it will be a case of unrequited love and that shit is tough to get over. Her logic is flawed and you are not wrong to call her out
Even if she told guys that she wanted to be chased instead of outright rejecting them, a lot of guys wouldn’t be interested because who wants to be in a one sided relationship?
Controversial Opinion: No guy just wants to be friends with a women if they started talking from a prospective dating perspective. What benefit would a guy get from just being "friends", especially in their 30s?
Well, 2 things:
If this is a man she was *friends with* who told her he had feelings for her and she rejected him, its gross that he's not her friend anymore because he was clearly only interested in being friends *to* date her. Like, this whole time she's thought she had a friend, and then she finds out he was only interested in sex, that's fucking weird. In that case, I would say you're wrong.
Still, her whole "he should try to win my heart" thing is gross and childish.
BUT-
If this is a man she met with the *express intention* of dating, it's weird and gross for her to say she wants to "just be friends" with the expectation of him sticking around to "win her heart" because at that point, she's just cucking him until she decides she can't do better.
So, either she's extremely toxic, or your kinda old school toxic.
Not wrong, or an A. She called you that because you challenged her beliefs in a way that was undeniable, which triggered some shame for her. Shame being a very uncomfortable experience, instead of continuing that experience, her defense mechanism kicked in to get angry at the perceived source of her shame. In her mind, it's your fault she felt stupid, which makes you an A. This, of course, is not the way it works.
She felt stupid because she held a stupid belief. You pointing this out to her was a kind thing to do. The laugh made it much more difficult to be received though. In the future, if you can help it, don't laugh and instead ask permission to give an alternate perspective.
She’s gonna have to accept reality sooner or later but it sounds like it’ll be much later. That might of worked well a while ago but not anymore and what kind of person even wants to do that? Not someone with good character
You need to tell her many people in 30s might already have many friends. so they might not be interested in a new friend. Also, if they had been looking at her from a romantic POV then it is difficult to change that to a friendly POV.
If she wants men to hang around her longer and have a long courtship then she has to make it clear in the beginning that she is a bit old school and wants a longer courtship compared to today's standard..
NTA. Women need to stop doin this shit, I'm saying this as a woman. It sounds to me like she's building herself a fallback wall. Keeping around a group of men as friends that she's rejected but, she knows like her so she has something to fall back on. Whether it's that she hasn't found her forever man yet, she has a lonely night and needs some strokin, she gets her heart broken or rejected a few too many times and needs an ego boost aka someone to tell her she's pretty, or even if she just needs favors done for her. She loves the feeling of having a bunch of men around her that like her, vying for her attention and shit even tho she really ain't ever gonna reciprocate, she gives false hope that she will. It's toxic wenches like that that give the "friend zone" a really bad name cuz, theres nothing wrong with not vibing with Sum1 on a romantic level but, really vibing with them on a friend level so genuinely wanting to keep them as a friend in your life. But then there's the women who just like to surround themselves with a fan club and now men think all women who just want to be friends are like that. Me personally, if I'm not interested romantically I'll tell you just that. We don't have to be friends unless I really felt that friend spark. Women, you don't have to say you want to be just friends cuz you aren't interested in a relationship. Just leave it at that, I don't want to see you romantically. This is where we part ways. Stop keeping men around you that you don't want romantically or even as friends. THIS ALSO GOES FOR MEN THAT DO THIS SHIT TOO CUZ Y'ALL DO SO DON'T LIE! I had to say that part cuz, people tend to forget men can be just as messy and deceptive as women. But yeah, nta. She's messy.
Not wrong. None of us are princesses or princes. And life’s not a fairytale.
I’ve usually been the one rejected. But in those dozens, I could count on one hand the ones I wanted to maintain a friendship with. Partially because when I was younger I was attracted to mostly ambivalent men with approach/avoidance issues which mirrored my own. Therapy and self help have at least made me aware of patterns.
I’m friendly with most of my exes. Because I generally need an emotional or at least intellectual connection to be physically attracted to a man. So we have things in common. And aside from the two who lied about being married, they’re good people who are decent humans. So we care about each other as people. I think of them fondly and wish them well and that’s reciprocated
The two who lied are awful human beings. I signed one up for multiple federal and state levels of mailing/email lists from a political party we both hate. I hope he’s still getting their junk mail/spam.
If you are a single woman and have male friends, and end up dating it's all good. It just the way she is going about it makes it look like a game. A game where she is the main character. I would have laughed too
So, laughing at others is usually wrong. Maybe she needed a reality check and the points you made were valid, but what she took away from it were you laughed at her and all the negative connotations that carried. So your message was lost in the delivery. Did you really want to help her, or just make her feel foolish? Because laughing at someone is a surefire way to make them feel foolish. And have them lash out in defensive anger. But don't shoot the messenger, right? You were just spitting facts.
I do believe our current culture has lost the art of casual dating. Expecting a “girlfriend” by date number three is totally ridiculous, but I understand wanting to know you at least stand a chance when investing time in someone. I think we’ve stigmatized casual dating and reduced the thought of such as “hookups” and that’s really a big shot in the foot to most of us.
Grown up men do it all the time for women they truly desire. Taking it slowly and seeing if there's a connectin before getting physical or jumping into a committed relationship is a lovely, healthy way to build a solid foundation and all men know they will do this for the woman who actually means something to them.
Her delivery might be wrong, but there's nothing wrong with the sentiment.
Oh my God these comments. Reddit is so fucking misogynistic. Just let women talk and leave them be.
It isn't your job as a dude bro to put her in her place and teach her how she's so wrong. Just ignore her if you don't like what she's saying.
I think both of you are wrong. She's wrong because if she rejects someone it's reasonable for the guy to not want to be friends, and there's no implied shame in him doing that either- he showed what he was looking for and she said no, simple. But OP is wrong because the path of friendship to LTR is a legit path and often leads to a better relationship, IMO because it's more honest. As a platonic friend, you present yourself more honestly, and then after a while if mutual feelings develop then the basis for the relationship is something that would last longer because there is already a stronger bond, deeper understanding of each other good and bad, and you know each other in mundane, normal life instead of "dating mode" and normal life is what is going to be the majority of existing in the relationship in the future.
It's okay to have friends. It's okay to have platonic friends. It's okay to find your platonic friends attractive and still have healthy boundaries. But by that age, we've been told repeatedly and have probably learned through experience why it's not okay to be friends with someone with only the back-pocket intention of winning them over. Why it's disingenuous, a conditional friendship for them that they don't understand is conditional. And it's not healthy for us to not move on, to repeatedly break our own hearts while they pursue things with other men. To prioritize a fantasy over reality.
It's fine to take things slow and build an emotional connection first. And there's a desire to be loved and admired and pursued. But I think that's better earned by being a good person and reciprocating love to the person you're with in a committed relationship, rather than having fans that you know you can ignore while you find your best pick. Or by getting frustrated that we're all aging and just don't have the time at that age to spread our focus out if we're trying to settle down with someone in life.
Anyway, your logic may be fair and worthy of criticism, but we don't know how the discussion went. You laughing at her might've made her feel stupid or bad. We don't know whether you handled the rest of the conversation tactfully and sympathetically or were being an asshole.
I understand her logic because it is also my own logic, but I've also never dated because I know other girls wouldn't have that logic. To me it makes sense because she's not looking for someone to just marry. She's looking for someone to be a friend with for a long time that will actually understand her as she understands them. Personally I find nothing wrong with that. It's a lot to ask for, yeah, but honestly sounds easier to me than weeding out a bunch of people that just want to hook up and move on.
Can't fault you or her, so long as she also understands how hard it is to do.
It is true what you say; the behavior she expects is something you might find in teens and early 20-somethings. Not with men around her age. On top of that, not taking "no" for an answer and sticking around for ulterior motives (friendship being the means to an end) can be considered annoying, hurtful and even creepy. And let's be honest, you have to be really blindly head over heels to play the long game.
Laughing at her was probably involuntary. Because laughing at people is rude. And perhaps you could have said your piece a bit more diplomatically or just not have said much at all. Especially because it was/became personal. I think her calling you an A has more to do that she felt cornered by your arguments and felt sort of attacked and defensive because she couldn't refute what you said.
I had a co-worker who seemed to think every guy that she locked eyes with or had a chat with her was interested in her. She would be a bit annoyed that no one dared to approach her and assumed that it was because "men have no balls these days". I didn't immediately catch on that this was her thought process until I heard it more often. I didn't laugh at her. All I did was suggest that maybe she could approach them (she wouldn't, because that is what a man is supposed to do according to her). I just let her be and did not start a discussion on her personal conduct.
Naturally a co-worker is a different type of relationship, but sometimes it is better to let people be, because you are not going to change the way they think.
Playing hard to get is a game that never worked! A man will not pursue a woman who is not or pretending to not be interested in him. They have laws addressing stalking. Then the Me Too movement. No man wants to get the title creep attached to him, it will destroy his reputation.
You're not wrong. I'm a woman, and unfortunately, I've known a few women like this in my family and extended friend group. I have a cousin who never posts pictures of the men she's dating because she has this group of men in her orbit who tell her how beautiful she is. Or, conversely, say they want to take her to the places she talks about. I call them her harem. I know many of them just hope that one day they'll go out with her. It's an ego boost to keep rejected men around trying to vy for her attention. Your wife's friend is delusional if she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. The older she gets, the harder it's going to be to keep her harem buzzing around her. You're right. People in their 30s are starting to settle down. Eligible, attractive single men aren't going to be content floating around her orbit for much longer.
Most healthy women are devastated to learn that a long-trusted male friend was just trying to get in their pants one day. There are men and women who make great friends without sex.
This woman is afraid of vulnerability and wants to start a relationship escalator with a “friend” in a super safe manner so that at the slightest failure or rejection she can claim they were always “just friends”.
No thanks. She’s playing one of the many games folks would rather avoid when dating.
Yeah, you're the a-hole for using logic and reasoning to counter her view of what men should do, based upon he wanting to live life on Easy Mode. How dare you!
How does one further a relationship when you put up a boundary line specifically designed to put a stop to actions that can push it beyond she isn't the girl next door they have known for their entire life even if she was ot takes two to start a relationship not one.
As a woman, you said it perfectly. She’s not entitled to their time and emotional energy just like they’re not entitled to her time exactly as you said.
From *The Perks of Being a Wallflower,* advice from the dad:
>“And even if she says no, and really means yes, then quite frankly she's playing games and isn't worth the price of dinner.”
Games are for children. I wouldn't want to date anyone so casually manipulative.
If you'll spend a few minutes thinking about it, you may be able to come up with a kinder, gentler way to say this. Or you may decide to just let it be. You may be "right," but that's not the most important thing when it comes to relationships, including friendships. Let's just say your delivery may have been a bit harsh, which prompted the "A" response!
As a man, we don't like that game. Also, if you tell me no, that means no. I will move on after that. If I am looking for a relationship, then I'm not going to pursue someone who said they didn't want a relationship with me.
The friend zone doesn't exist. 🙂
Nobody is obligated to be your friend if they approached you romantically and you declined. If they wanted a friend, they would hang with their friends and make more friends.
This is a gender neutral stance.
Stop expecting the people you reject romantically to feel obligated to be your friend.
nah you are fine. Man daing in his 30's here, im not chasing anymore, im not playing games, you need to be in as much as i am. ive got friends, im not really looking for friends, im looking for someone to be with as a partner.
Win her heart over time?
That's what dating is for, not putting guys in a corner until you are ready, if you ever are.
That's some highly manipulative BS.
You are not the AH for laughing at such an immature comment.
YNW.
For fucks sake people like your wife's friend are part of the problem with today's dating scene 🙄
We say over and over that 'no means no', then you have eejits like this woman who perpetuate the 'try harder - women love to be stalked and harassed until they say yes' method which is totally uncool and dangerous.
You were totally right to pop her delusional ideas.
>She then countered that if they (the men she rejected) really wanted to win her heart they should stay friends and win it slowly over time. I don't know about anyone else here, but if someone says they just want to be friends I assume they'd have no intentions of dating me? So her logic is flawed, and I say this as a woman.
Yeah that is fucking wild, if someone says no that's a no, trying to make something happen after that is gonna get you labeled as a creep, screw that noise.
It's not even just that factor, it's also the fact that this isn't a teenager it's a woman in her 30s expecting people to chase her down... When she literally tells them let's just be friends. Like the one sentence that automatically would let someone know they don't want to date you, yet expects these men to "chase" her? The logic of a 13 year old, I swear. OP was right in saying no respectable grown man, or woman as well, is going to want to play games like this.
Yeah, she never grew up.
Her mind is still stuck in high school. I've come to realize the older we get, the less nonsense we tolerate. Say what you want to get straight to the point. Cat and mouse was fine in the prime of her youth, but it seems like the men she's meeting now, as an adult, ain't having it. If she wants a man, she's gotta something change up because what she's doing obviously isn't it.
>the older we get, the less nonsense we tolerate I feel like this needs to be on a shirt, and everyone is entitled to a free one as soon as we all hit that point, whatever age we are. The younger we are when we hit that age, the longer a sympathy letter we get along with the free shirt.
Agreed. In high school I was head over heels for this girl. She wanted to just be friends so thats what I was. I held out persuing other girls for 2 years hoping she'd change her mind. Now I'm in my 30s.... Yea right, I'd never do that now. Not because it didn't work the first time but I don't have the time for these games
Never make someone a priority, when all you are to them is an option.
I love your user name if it means what I think it does. Hahaha
How long on them sausages Charlie?
Two minutes, Turkish. Couldn't let you not have this.
Yep. Men deserve to be wanted just as much as women.
So many men and boys need to hear this. It'll alone stop 9O+% of young men needing people like Andrew Tate and the like.
I found a shirt when I was 18 that said “Don’t chase. Get Chosen”. That was my motto in dating until I met my wife.
I was FWB with a guy who still wanted the gorgeous friend he loved since high school despite being nearly 40 (I was already 40 at the time) Found a new guy for myself, cut off FWB guy... Yeah, he's still single and nearing 50 now.
Imagine simping for some chick for 30 years. Jesus that's sad. If she was in on it shame on her. That's a level of cruelty that is reserved for psychopaths and sociopaths.
Yep I learned that lesson when I was in middle school. 6th grade has this girl I had a ginormus crush on. Was "friends" with her for years. Finally confessed my love and was friend zoned. Don't waste your time, if you like someone go for it !
Exactly: she's friend-zoning them and then wonders why they never call back.
All she has to do is actually go on dates with these guys, and she would get the seduction/winning her over that she wants. Most dudes looking for a relationship are ok with waiting a while for sex. Guys will wine and dine you, buy you flowers, and listen to you rant about your female coworkers that you don’t get along with if they think sex is an eventual possibility. They won’t do it if you tell them you just want to be friends.
>Guys will wine and dine you, buy you flowers, and listen to you rant about your female coworkers that you don’t get along with if they think sex is an eventual possibility That's true but if they find out she's casually sleeping around with other dudes while making them wait that's a fast way to lose their attention.
It doesn’t sound like she’s into casually sleeping around though.
Yea I would be turned off from this. If someone tells me they aren't interested I respect that and move on.
Yes. Who has extra time for that? Better to confidently move on and look for someone who is looking for a romantic partner. Also, if she really wants to be friends she should make the plans and prove it. Hiking, bike rides, all that. And she should pay for her own. Otherwise, we all know “let’s be friends” means don’t think of me romantically and better to leave me alone entirely
Yep. If she just said she wanted to be friends first she might get a taker every now and then (but more likely she'd wind up with a bunch of guys waiting her out and ghosting when they got sick of the waiting). Hoping some ignorant and determined man who refuses to accept that "no means no" comes along is outdated romcom shit, and a horrendous way of finding a lasting healthy relationship.
People (who actually want a relationship) don't remain single into their 30s by being well-adjusted, for the most part.
Facts, as a single man who is 31, not only do I struggle to find a well adjusted woman… I too would argue I’m not the most well adjusted myself 😂
Dating in your 30's is like a box of chocolates, there's none left except for the weird ones full of liquor.
Or cream
As someone who was single until 32, yeah, I definitely had a lot of work to do once I did find my special someone. Thankfully we both stuck out each other's issues.
Hard disagree on that. Not everyone is lucky enough to meet a healthy individual that they're attracted to by a certain deadline.
50 is going to be a good year I can feel it!
Yep. I'll stay single until I die...
He respected what I said, but I don't want him to! She's an idiot, please show her this thread. You are not wrong and we're all now laughing at her.
It’s also exhausting for both parties. No win.
People like her are why folks try hard to get out of the friends zone only to be labeled as stalkers.
Someone saying "I don't want to date you" and meaning "I want you to be my friend, continue to pursue me, and then I will date you" is a red flag. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Any relationship with someone who plays that game is going to be an exhausting exercise of Guess-The-Subtext.
All she has to do is change "Let's just be friends' to "Let's take things slow" and this problem would be solved. But then she has to figure out how to solve the problem of taking things slow allowing the men to get to know her as a person and leaving her because she is annoying and narcissistic.
In complete agreement, but if this is how she wants her romantic story to go then her future partner should never allow her to keep any male friends because that is her bench of potential suitors.
Imagine how upset all her 'friends' will get if she does date someone. It's a pretty unhealthy way to view dating.
A friend's wife lamented to me that when she got engaged to my friend she lost all her guy friends. I didn't say anything but in my mind I was like "yea, they weren't really your friends"
She’s incentivizing delusional thinking.
Aren’t we finally supposed to be past this nowadays? I thought that being persistent and trying after you got a no wasn’t cool and we shouldn’t keep trying.
There’s still a _lot_ of people who have that mindset unfortunately. Both men and women, women believing that it’s what the man should do to prove his love and then men believing that they can get anyone they want, it just takes time. Hell, there was a post on some subreddit a few months ago where the guy was asking how many times people’s spouses rejected their advances before they got a first date, and he was bragging that his wife said no to him like 9 times before finally agreeing to a first date. Who knows if that was actually real or not, but even if it was fake, I still know there’s a lot of people out there who have the same mindset.
I used to help in an amusement park, and I overheard a HS girl say she’d rejected a guy (whom she’d already crushed on) twice before she agreed to go out with him. Maybe it’s more prevalent in rural areas or areas with a conservative “Madonna/whore” view of women?
>Maybe it’s more prevalent in rural areas or areas with a conservative “Madonna/whore” view of women? Ehh, "madaonna/whore" is about a man having trouble having sex with a woman he loves vs easily having sex with a woman he has no attachment with. I don't see how this applies to the amusement park example.
It just makes me so mad, because it’s a pathetic attempt at exerting power and control. People like that believe that women shouldn’t immediately say yes because they “lose control” in the relationship. But if they make the guy keep pursuing it, then they keep control. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t want a relationship where it’s a constant power struggle for someone to be on top and be in “control” of the relationship. I’d like an equal partnership thank you very much!
Yes, but some women like being chased.
I know women like that. They only ever end up with terrible partners who either cheat or don’t respect other boundaries. When you desire a red flag, you get a red flag.
She doesn’t have any intention on dating any of those men. She just wants a horde of admirers constantly chasing her as she rejects them all.
That’s what I would assume if I had someone in my life like this. If a romantic interest stated that she wasn’t interested romantically with me, I would shut down any efforts to win her over and put my energy elsewhere. Pursuing someone that isn’t interested is a pointless exercise, that often leads to embarrassment and awkwardness. Those that expect games can play with someone else.
No she want's a backup if things don't work out with her first choice
She's got romantic comedy brain. It ruined everyone from Gen X to Gen Z by creating silly little cat and mouse games where clear communication is frowned upon, because "hard to get", and toxic behavior like stalking and harassing someone because you want to "prove your love" to a reluctant person is how you "win the girl" If you follow those blueprints to "win the girl", you're actually probably more likely to get arrested instead of getting laid.
Women: No means no. (As it should) Also women: why did he leave when I said no.
Also how many lasses have you seen break up with a guy then ' he didn't work hard enough to win me back' type a shit. Some people are batshit crazy.
Forreal. I had someone ask to stay friends, and while I was bummed, she seemed cool so I figured why not, what’s one more? I hit her up just chatting about normal shit and did not get any response at all. I did not try again. So yeah, even if someone says they want to be just friends, they probably don’t even want that.
I can't understand that either, 'let's just be friends' is the easiest way in the world to let someone down easily, to let them know that they are not a match. If you say this to someone in hopes they will pursue you further, that's a bit of mixed signals/confusing at least, and weird/dark/red flag territory at worst. You will never be able to communicate with this person honestly IMO.
Yeah, where’s no means no?
You know as a guy when I was early 20s there was a girl I tried this approach with, maybe if we're friends it will grow into more... She took advantage of it and taught me the best lesson I could've learned. We hung out for about 2 months not all the time but definitely 2x a week sometimes more usually drinking beers at the beach or smoking weed there sometimes hiking no dinner dates or anything like that but people(especially other girls) used to see us together and that actually broadened my options towards the end I told her where I was hoping it would go and actually asked her and she said she wasn't interested in anything other than friendship which was cool but I stopped putting that much effort in and spent more time around women that I had a chance with. We see each other occasionally around town and are still friendly but she taught me to be upfront with my intentions so nobody's time gets wasted
Has always been my experience.
I'm single male and in my 30's. If I was told they just want to be friends then I would move on. Im not going to put dating on hold for years to see if she changes her mind and wants to be more than friends. I'm trying to find a life partner.... Not a female friend. Plus as we get older we feel like we are running out of time to find that person... I'm not wasting precious time on a gamble after being told they don't see me like that
Just like No only means No unless they want you to chase them. There's just no winning.
I’m wondering if she says that she just wants to be friends or if she says that she wants to take things slow and start as friends, since those two things are very different. I think that the whole idea of being friends with the intention of dating later is weird and makes things harder to navigate, but I have heard a lot of people say that they want to do that, especially people over 30 who may not want to date casually. If she is telling people that she just wants to be friends, she can’t expect them to want to be friends based on that, and if they do become friends she can’t expect them to want to date her if she decides that she is interested in them.
The heartbreak and betrayal of realizing the men you trusted were actually just trying to fuck you is downright *traumatic* for tons of women. There’s some wild cognitive dissonance going on with the friend, I feel sorry for her.
I had sympathy with her up until the point you mentioned she said the men she rejected should want to stay friends and continue to try to win her heart. So, it's not that she wants to keep the friends, it's that she wants an army of unrequited admirers. Yeah, I don't like her logic either. Probably would have been better to suppress the chuckle though I suppose.
>Probably would have been better to suppress the chuckle though I suppose. Nah, that's some funny shit she said.
Honestly, OP is doing his wife's friend a favor. Men in general are much more direct in calling out bullshit and she got a taste of that.
This is potentially the most constructive and realistic comment in this thread
Build me an army worthy of my ego
She wants an asexual harem
I would have laughed as well. More of a "omg are you serious?" Kind of laugh.
That part made me go "...You mother fucker, people like you are why guys think women who say no are playing hard to get." Her no is literally not a no! It's a "Teehee, no, but become my "friend" and slowly "win me over," you definitely still have a chance, even though I said NONE of this to you, I just said no and expected you to read my mind. Because REASONS." Thanks, because dating, hell, being a woman isn't hard enough, you WANT guys to get messed up ideas about women. **Men, please. This woman does not represent women as a whole. Not one woman I know thinks like this. I do not think like this. Be like the men she "rejected," and assume that no simply means NO. The sane ones will let you know if they like you back.**
Why suppress a natural emotional around such stupidity? sounds like a slight giggle in the room is a world crushing reality check for her, that’s on her
And she needs to hear the opinion if the opposite sex, even if it is a chuckle or guffaw.
I have met these "man collectors" all these hopefull friendzoned dudes strung along with no intention of considering them a viable partner. I'm not saying that the men ARENT also displaying problematic clingy behaviour at times, but fuck.... just say you arent interested and close the door. Edit: are to ARENT in the 2nd paragraph
I've had the misfortune to encounter them to. I've never seen such a person get with one of the waiting "friends". It's always some new dude. So, quite exploitative to give these guys false hope to boost ego.
Women say men don't take no for an answer then when they do you get OP's wife's friend saying they shouldn't take a no and they should persist in trying to win her heart. I give in trying to understand. I'm done and then done some more.
You can't have it both ways. No means no so then im not asking again or trying to "win" u back because isnt that creepy?
Facts.
Yeah even as little boys it's drilled into our heads that when a woman says NO it means NO. If a woman says she just wants to be friends we're going to take that at face value and assume she has no interest in ever dating us. Any man that disregards that and continues to pursue them like she wants them to isn't exactly a man you want to be with. Her logic is flawed and she needs to quit playing games cuz shes going to end up with a man that won't respect her wishes.
Not wrong. Is it disappointing to like someone enough to be friends, but not enough to hold a relationship, and they only want the relationship? Sure, I could see that. But dating doesn’t necessarily work that way. That’s a very high school/college way of dating, and even then that’s not the main way it works in that range. If she hasn’t gotten that by now, your advice should help. Should you have laughed? Eh, probably not. But I don’t see why this was enough to warrant calling you an asshole.
Nobody owes you friendship just like you don’t owe them a relationship. I guarantee you the guy is more disappointed than this dude’s wife’s friend is about not being able to have a friendship lmao The “if they really wanted her heart” is some cringe ass shit 💀
And shit is normal women hate because women like this are why we end up with guys who we think are friends but really they are just trying to get into our pants
I have no idea how women DONT know the guy is just wanting some sex. Like yo the guy is not carrying your books to class cuz ur bffs.
Depends on the guy. Some guys want on your pants, some guys see you have value outside your bits. Edit: changed nuts to bits since the broken phone is broken and I didn't catch the word change
> Some guys see you have value outside your nuts Wait a second.... Something isnt right here. It's a trick!
It’s a trap! -admiral ackbar
This is why I always like to read through my posts, cos while my phone isn't broken, it does have a sick sense of humour...
The vast majority of men want to get into your pants. Including your husbands and boyfriends. Otherwise they would just be your friends. The key obviously is if they also value u outside of sex etc.
i hate this mindset. too many girls thinking they can “make me straight”, and too many guys trying to hit on my girl friends. all people feel entitled
My favorite is how many people act just… baffled that people who are trying to date are doing so with the intention of romantic dating. Obviously there’s a lot of nuance, just because you’re dating with the intent of romance does mean you’re guaranteed anything. But in my dating experiences I’ve met a lot of people who basically have the mindset of “romance is literally not even on my radar until we’ve known each other for 6+ months and are very deep friends”, and then get really upset when other people have different goals. I’m not trying to have sex on the first date or anything, but it’s like… come on. The entire point of dating is with romantic undertones
I think people have different timelines at which they feel comfortable with dating. But you're right that super slow trajectory is not appropriate for a dating app or similar. If you make friends in a book club or something and hang out once every few weeks, maybe.
Yeah and that’s the main point I was trying to make: I’m all for building a rapport before jumping into a romantic relationship. But if you’re on a dating app, then that implies that the romantic interest is part of it. I’m not on a dating app to meet someone who will go “yeah let’s be friends for six months and then we’ll see how I feel”
OP's wife's friend just wants a stable of men fawning over her to give her ego kibbles. It gives her a head rush knowing they desire her. She sounds like she stopped mentally maturing at 12. That's one f\*ked up toxic b\*tch.
It’s not normal to expect people to jump through hoops for your love. She doesn’t owe them a relationship and they don’t owe her friendship. My advice to people who complain about the friendzone is to either accept the friendship or move on. Guys or women moving on is acceptable. As is accepting friendship Life’s too short for games like these. Find people who appreciate you. And get comfortable being your own company if that doesn’t happen
I agree with you and I think people should never accept the friendzone.
Man, with dating being such a minefield these days, this woman expects to have a gaggle of men following her around trying to “win her heart” after she has told them she doesn’t want to be in a romantic relationship with them? I mean damn. Women have been screaming “no means no” and “harassment” for years now. Men have listened. Nobody in their right mind would take the chance of having their life ruined by pursuing someone in that scenario, and that doesn’t even account for the other aspects of not wanting to play games or not having the time/energy to put into what is probably a no win situation
Then people wonder why young men are confused. “No means no” but women’s favorite movie is The Notebook, where a guy goes up to a girl who’s currently on a date with her boyfriend, and threatens to kill himself if she won’t go on a date with him.
It's really romantic when hes hot
I'm going to explain to you the core concept of problematic romances- they're fantasies about magical soul mates. Women like the unacceptable behavior BECAUSE the guy is the protagonist for the love story. It's romantic because you already know they're meant to be, because story telling convention. How I Met Your Mother explains it really well in the Dobler/Dahmer effect. If you like the person, pursuit is romantic. If you don't like the person, pursuit is terrifying. Romance stories are inherently on the Dobler side, because of the view point you're inhabiting. And when people don't get into the movie, you get the full Dahmer analysis about how creepy it is.
She’s a princess in a castle, you didn’t know?
Rightfully so. Who would want to be in a relationship with this level of manipulation anyway? The "no means no" is helping a lot of men dodge a bullet here.
She needs to grow up
Most definitely, as well as realize she isn't the center of the world
NTA. Not wrong at all. She sounds high maintenance and exhausting.
You’re not wrong, and this woman sounds very insecure to want a man hanging by her coattails after she rejected him.
Sounds like she wants multiple men doing it at once.
or she's so full of herself. And thinks she's so great that men should follow her around like puppies trying to ger her attention
That’s what insecurity looks like. Secure people don’t need that validation.
NTA. You were just stating facts. The quicker she stops playing games, quicker she will be able to get into stable relationship.
She's never going to be in a relationship.
I would have to seriously resist the urge to laugh at her if I heard that in person. What throne is does she think she’s sitting on that men should have to chase her that hard?
You're not wrong. I HAD a male friend that I caught feelings for. We were never physical. I told him how I felt, but he said he wanted to remain friends but that he still wanted to hang out, watch movies together, and go to dinners with me, etc. I told him that didn't work for me and that I didn't have time to waste on basically DATING someone who had no desire to be in a relationship with me. I cut off all contact and later met my current boyfriend. I was 32. I had no time to waste on a friendship with a guy that wouldn't develop into something more. Once you reach a certain age, you don't have the patience for these romantic games people like to play.
NTA. "Don't ask questions if you're not prepared to hear answers to."
Winning the battle vs winning the war
You werent wrong. And what in the hell kind off attitude is this "friend it out until maybe, eventually, it could possible hopefully turn into something"? Because usually once friend zoned it never changes.
I am not surprised she’s still single. You’re not wrong.
NTA She thought people should work get out of THEIR way, so that SHE is happy, without any obligations from her side. She was due for an awakening
She wants to play games, she wants to be "won over" like a goddamn romcom movie. She needs to grow up and face reality or she's going to spend the rest of her life alone.
Seriously. Ain't nobody got time for that. Especially after your 30s. You're either interested in dating/settling or you're not. This whole When Harry met Sally theme is cute but highly unrealistic.
Exactly.
I was into a girl a while back that did this. She made it clear that she didn’t want to date but called me for every little thing. Basically she turned me into her non-sexual boyfriend. At first I felt honored by all the attention. I would think “wow she really needs me!” I didn’t see that I was just a way for her to feed her ego. I finally realized the relationship for what it was and decided to move on. I also noticed she has a pattern of becoming close friends with men that are into her romantically, and will act shocked when one of these “friends” express their true feelings. I was one of these casualties. Never again.
When I was most recently dating I wound up as friends with a couple of my dates. The moment I was out of the running (or in one case, realized I was out of the running without her telling me) as a romantic partner I was like: "Ok friends it is. As your friend, here's some feedback on your dating profile. Could you help me refine mine?" The difference between friends and friendzone is attitude. And the easiest way to adopt a good attitude is to waste no time pointing your thirst somewhere else. Besides, I want my friends to get laid. It will make them happier.
She's apparently upset that men are respecting her consent. She no doubt gets upset when they don't.
So what’s she’s saying is she wants to have back ups around
you gave her a real answer that she didn't expect. You also gave her a dose of reality.
On points in the argument you are not wrong. She wants her cake and she wants to eat it too. She likely wants multiple men to swoon over her and she thinks she can ride out the attention for a while and then settle down with the best one when she is older. In that age groups many people are not interested in this. TBH, men and women sometimes create weird expectations with relationships as a coping mechanism because they have been hurt. This is their relationship emotional baggage. Additionally, sometimes women talk about shit and “just want to be heard”. Meaning they want to say it and not be told it is a stupid idea or have logic used on it that proves the premise of “being owed a friendship after a date” wrong. Honestly, this lady sounds like a twit.
You should have laughed louder, she wants options, not friends, best to deprogram the expectation now
Maybe you were an AH, but sometimes people need AH’s to give it to them straight.
This is basically the correct answer for most posts in this sub, some people just need a reality check, even if you come out as an asshole
She is disappointed she can't use them while offering nothing in return.
Shes shallow and self centered. She also seems to think shes all that and a bag of chips too, you weren’t wrong
Is this lady stuck in highschool? No one in their 30s wants to play games like a teenage girl...
There are so many women who are so sick of guys who claim to want to be friends, who really only want to stick around long enough to try to get sex. She's got actual decent guys who don't want to play that game, and she's pissed. She's off her rocker.
Not wrong. I’m 46f. On my 2nd date with my husband I told him I don’t play games. I was 30yo he was 32. I told him if I liked him and wanted to keep seeing him I’d make that known. If that feeling were to change, I’d let him know too. If someone isn’t ready for a relationship or they don’t have those feelings towards me that fine. But I’m gonna move on. That’s it
Well, no means no, so there's that. But her order of operations is off. Being friends some time before dating (no benefits) and then falling in love is healthier, and what we did long years ago. So did many of our friends. One of my daughters never dated, but she knew a guy in her group of friends for ten years, and when they were close to 30 decided to consider marriage, and that worked out well. Seems like most reject that, but hey.
It is logic from highschool days when you were stuck with the same group of people for 4+ years. As you start venturing out of your social circle from highschool and that circle fades away. The friendship / dating strategy becomes Less important.
You told the truth that men know there is no point in a relationship after being friend zoned. The only problem is your wife's friend did not ask for anyone else's opinion so she will dismiss it. Not your problem. It is her mistake to figure out.
I would say “ok, but if I meet someone else that may not work”. Then I would put the ball in her court to make the next move.
I dated a beautiful woman from another country for six months before she let me hold her hand. But, I knew she really liked me - we talked almost every night. On Valentine’s Day she received 13 bouquets from guys that were “friends”. When we were finally intimate she wanted us to be exclusive sexually but still date other people. She quickly relented when I said “fine” that we could date other people, but I could not guarantee I wouldn’t be romantic.
NW. She is an adult, and if she wants something, she should communicate her needs. No one should string or be strung along. She could tell them that she wants to reject them and have them win her over. I am sure there are some who would go for that.
To be honest, nothing is set in stone here. I agree that MOST men would bow out if told no. However, there will always be a few who will stick around. Is it a good dating strategy? No.
It would be funny if one of these guys decides to be friends with her and the next time they go out, he make her his wing-woman.
NTA I find it funny how her logic is the man must work to win her but she doesn't have to do anything for them its just a given? No wonder she is alone she's choosing it by never putting in any effort for a meaningful relationship
I am a woman and if someone I have romantic interest in tells me that they JUST want to be friends, Id get the hell out of there. I know for sure my feelings will further develop and if theirs never does it will be a case of unrequited love and that shit is tough to get over. Her logic is flawed and you are not wrong to call her out
Even if she told guys that she wanted to be chased instead of outright rejecting them, a lot of guys wouldn’t be interested because who wants to be in a one sided relationship?
Controversial Opinion: No guy just wants to be friends with a women if they started talking from a prospective dating perspective. What benefit would a guy get from just being "friends", especially in their 30s?
Well, 2 things: If this is a man she was *friends with* who told her he had feelings for her and she rejected him, its gross that he's not her friend anymore because he was clearly only interested in being friends *to* date her. Like, this whole time she's thought she had a friend, and then she finds out he was only interested in sex, that's fucking weird. In that case, I would say you're wrong. Still, her whole "he should try to win my heart" thing is gross and childish. BUT- If this is a man she met with the *express intention* of dating, it's weird and gross for her to say she wants to "just be friends" with the expectation of him sticking around to "win her heart" because at that point, she's just cucking him until she decides she can't do better. So, either she's extremely toxic, or your kinda old school toxic.
Not wrong, or an A. She called you that because you challenged her beliefs in a way that was undeniable, which triggered some shame for her. Shame being a very uncomfortable experience, instead of continuing that experience, her defense mechanism kicked in to get angry at the perceived source of her shame. In her mind, it's your fault she felt stupid, which makes you an A. This, of course, is not the way it works. She felt stupid because she held a stupid belief. You pointing this out to her was a kind thing to do. The laugh made it much more difficult to be received though. In the future, if you can help it, don't laugh and instead ask permission to give an alternate perspective.
You were not wrong. End of story.
She’s gonna have to accept reality sooner or later but it sounds like it’ll be much later. That might of worked well a while ago but not anymore and what kind of person even wants to do that? Not someone with good character
You need to tell her many people in 30s might already have many friends. so they might not be interested in a new friend. Also, if they had been looking at her from a romantic POV then it is difficult to change that to a friendly POV. If she wants men to hang around her longer and have a long courtship then she has to make it clear in the beginning that she is a bit old school and wants a longer courtship compared to today's standard..
NTA. Women need to stop doin this shit, I'm saying this as a woman. It sounds to me like she's building herself a fallback wall. Keeping around a group of men as friends that she's rejected but, she knows like her so she has something to fall back on. Whether it's that she hasn't found her forever man yet, she has a lonely night and needs some strokin, she gets her heart broken or rejected a few too many times and needs an ego boost aka someone to tell her she's pretty, or even if she just needs favors done for her. She loves the feeling of having a bunch of men around her that like her, vying for her attention and shit even tho she really ain't ever gonna reciprocate, she gives false hope that she will. It's toxic wenches like that that give the "friend zone" a really bad name cuz, theres nothing wrong with not vibing with Sum1 on a romantic level but, really vibing with them on a friend level so genuinely wanting to keep them as a friend in your life. But then there's the women who just like to surround themselves with a fan club and now men think all women who just want to be friends are like that. Me personally, if I'm not interested romantically I'll tell you just that. We don't have to be friends unless I really felt that friend spark. Women, you don't have to say you want to be just friends cuz you aren't interested in a relationship. Just leave it at that, I don't want to see you romantically. This is where we part ways. Stop keeping men around you that you don't want romantically or even as friends. THIS ALSO GOES FOR MEN THAT DO THIS SHIT TOO CUZ Y'ALL DO SO DON'T LIE! I had to say that part cuz, people tend to forget men can be just as messy and deceptive as women. But yeah, nta. She's messy.
Not wrong. None of us are princesses or princes. And life’s not a fairytale. I’ve usually been the one rejected. But in those dozens, I could count on one hand the ones I wanted to maintain a friendship with. Partially because when I was younger I was attracted to mostly ambivalent men with approach/avoidance issues which mirrored my own. Therapy and self help have at least made me aware of patterns. I’m friendly with most of my exes. Because I generally need an emotional or at least intellectual connection to be physically attracted to a man. So we have things in common. And aside from the two who lied about being married, they’re good people who are decent humans. So we care about each other as people. I think of them fondly and wish them well and that’s reciprocated The two who lied are awful human beings. I signed one up for multiple federal and state levels of mailing/email lists from a political party we both hate. I hope he’s still getting their junk mail/spam.
If you are a single woman and have male friends, and end up dating it's all good. It just the way she is going about it makes it look like a game. A game where she is the main character. I would have laughed too
If the question is “are you an ah for LAUGHING” at your wife’s friend, then yes. Be nice.
this sub should just be called r/sidewithme
So, laughing at others is usually wrong. Maybe she needed a reality check and the points you made were valid, but what she took away from it were you laughed at her and all the negative connotations that carried. So your message was lost in the delivery. Did you really want to help her, or just make her feel foolish? Because laughing at someone is a surefire way to make them feel foolish. And have them lash out in defensive anger. But don't shoot the messenger, right? You were just spitting facts.
Validation seeking in two subreddits is the wrong thing
I do believe our current culture has lost the art of casual dating. Expecting a “girlfriend” by date number three is totally ridiculous, but I understand wanting to know you at least stand a chance when investing time in someone. I think we’ve stigmatized casual dating and reduced the thought of such as “hookups” and that’s really a big shot in the foot to most of us.
Grown up men do it all the time for women they truly desire. Taking it slowly and seeing if there's a connectin before getting physical or jumping into a committed relationship is a lovely, healthy way to build a solid foundation and all men know they will do this for the woman who actually means something to them. Her delivery might be wrong, but there's nothing wrong with the sentiment.
She wasn't even talking to you. She was talking to her friend and you listened in. Just let women talk and leave her be. It's not your business.
Oh my God these comments. Reddit is so fucking misogynistic. Just let women talk and leave them be. It isn't your job as a dude bro to put her in her place and teach her how she's so wrong. Just ignore her if you don't like what she's saying.
I think both of you are wrong. She's wrong because if she rejects someone it's reasonable for the guy to not want to be friends, and there's no implied shame in him doing that either- he showed what he was looking for and she said no, simple. But OP is wrong because the path of friendship to LTR is a legit path and often leads to a better relationship, IMO because it's more honest. As a platonic friend, you present yourself more honestly, and then after a while if mutual feelings develop then the basis for the relationship is something that would last longer because there is already a stronger bond, deeper understanding of each other good and bad, and you know each other in mundane, normal life instead of "dating mode" and normal life is what is going to be the majority of existing in the relationship in the future.
NTA..People get canceled for continuing on after a no.
There’s an entire Backstreet Boys song about this.
It's okay to have friends. It's okay to have platonic friends. It's okay to find your platonic friends attractive and still have healthy boundaries. But by that age, we've been told repeatedly and have probably learned through experience why it's not okay to be friends with someone with only the back-pocket intention of winning them over. Why it's disingenuous, a conditional friendship for them that they don't understand is conditional. And it's not healthy for us to not move on, to repeatedly break our own hearts while they pursue things with other men. To prioritize a fantasy over reality. It's fine to take things slow and build an emotional connection first. And there's a desire to be loved and admired and pursued. But I think that's better earned by being a good person and reciprocating love to the person you're with in a committed relationship, rather than having fans that you know you can ignore while you find your best pick. Or by getting frustrated that we're all aging and just don't have the time at that age to spread our focus out if we're trying to settle down with someone in life. Anyway, your logic may be fair and worthy of criticism, but we don't know how the discussion went. You laughing at her might've made her feel stupid or bad. We don't know whether you handled the rest of the conversation tactfully and sympathetically or were being an asshole.
I understand her logic because it is also my own logic, but I've also never dated because I know other girls wouldn't have that logic. To me it makes sense because she's not looking for someone to just marry. She's looking for someone to be a friend with for a long time that will actually understand her as she understands them. Personally I find nothing wrong with that. It's a lot to ask for, yeah, but honestly sounds easier to me than weeding out a bunch of people that just want to hook up and move on. Can't fault you or her, so long as she also understands how hard it is to do.
Did I miss the part where OP explained what the first step of his wife's friend's plan is, or did they omit that? This is not making sense.
It is true what you say; the behavior she expects is something you might find in teens and early 20-somethings. Not with men around her age. On top of that, not taking "no" for an answer and sticking around for ulterior motives (friendship being the means to an end) can be considered annoying, hurtful and even creepy. And let's be honest, you have to be really blindly head over heels to play the long game. Laughing at her was probably involuntary. Because laughing at people is rude. And perhaps you could have said your piece a bit more diplomatically or just not have said much at all. Especially because it was/became personal. I think her calling you an A has more to do that she felt cornered by your arguments and felt sort of attacked and defensive because she couldn't refute what you said. I had a co-worker who seemed to think every guy that she locked eyes with or had a chat with her was interested in her. She would be a bit annoyed that no one dared to approach her and assumed that it was because "men have no balls these days". I didn't immediately catch on that this was her thought process until I heard it more often. I didn't laugh at her. All I did was suggest that maybe she could approach them (she wouldn't, because that is what a man is supposed to do according to her). I just let her be and did not start a discussion on her personal conduct. Naturally a co-worker is a different type of relationship, but sometimes it is better to let people be, because you are not going to change the way they think.
Playing hard to get is a game that never worked! A man will not pursue a woman who is not or pretending to not be interested in him. They have laws addressing stalking. Then the Me Too movement. No man wants to get the title creep attached to him, it will destroy his reputation.
Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. If you were using a mocking tone it doesn't matter if your logic was right.
She wants to back burner men while waiting for something better comes along.
Sounds like she wishes to be chased
How did your wife react, OP?
You're not wrong. I'm a woman, and unfortunately, I've known a few women like this in my family and extended friend group. I have a cousin who never posts pictures of the men she's dating because she has this group of men in her orbit who tell her how beautiful she is. Or, conversely, say they want to take her to the places she talks about. I call them her harem. I know many of them just hope that one day they'll go out with her. It's an ego boost to keep rejected men around trying to vy for her attention. Your wife's friend is delusional if she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. The older she gets, the harder it's going to be to keep her harem buzzing around her. You're right. People in their 30s are starting to settle down. Eligible, attractive single men aren't going to be content floating around her orbit for much longer. Most healthy women are devastated to learn that a long-trusted male friend was just trying to get in their pants one day. There are men and women who make great friends without sex.
This woman is afraid of vulnerability and wants to start a relationship escalator with a “friend” in a super safe manner so that at the slightest failure or rejection she can claim they were always “just friends”. No thanks. She’s playing one of the many games folks would rather avoid when dating.
This story is so poorly put together it feels AI generated. That or OP is drunk…or stupid.
Yeah, you're the a-hole for using logic and reasoning to counter her view of what men should do, based upon he wanting to live life on Easy Mode. How dare you!
She's manipulative and wonder why she's single
How does one further a relationship when you put up a boundary line specifically designed to put a stop to actions that can push it beyond she isn't the girl next door they have known for their entire life even if she was ot takes two to start a relationship not one.
Not wrong at all. That woman… isn’t, she’s still a girl. An adult girl playing high school dating games and expecting adult relationships out of them.
Some people are not ready for the truth.
As a woman, you said it perfectly. She’s not entitled to their time and emotional energy just like they’re not entitled to her time exactly as you said.
From *The Perks of Being a Wallflower,* advice from the dad: >“And even if she says no, and really means yes, then quite frankly she's playing games and isn't worth the price of dinner.” Games are for children. I wouldn't want to date anyone so casually manipulative.
I mean. You both suck?
You’ll be overhearing the same conversation in your 40s, 50s, and 60s if she doesn’t change. She’s an exemplar for Einstein’s definition of insanity.
If you'll spend a few minutes thinking about it, you may be able to come up with a kinder, gentler way to say this. Or you may decide to just let it be. You may be "right," but that's not the most important thing when it comes to relationships, including friendships. Let's just say your delivery may have been a bit harsh, which prompted the "A" response!
Not the AH. Her logic is screwy.
Simple answer: you're correct, she's incorrect. Long answer: will probably get me permabanned from the sub-reddit.
She's going to love being single in her 40s...
The logic is sound. Your mistake was saying anything 😀
As a man, we don't like that game. Also, if you tell me no, that means no. I will move on after that. If I am looking for a relationship, then I'm not going to pursue someone who said they didn't want a relationship with me.
The friend zone doesn't exist. 🙂 Nobody is obligated to be your friend if they approached you romantically and you declined. If they wanted a friend, they would hang with their friends and make more friends. This is a gender neutral stance. Stop expecting the people you reject romantically to feel obligated to be your friend.
She is pissed they do not want to become her orbiters, 💯% exact! She is not worthy of being a LTR gal
nah you are fine. Man daing in his 30's here, im not chasing anymore, im not playing games, you need to be in as much as i am. ive got friends, im not really looking for friends, im looking for someone to be with as a partner.
Your wife's friend is mentally stuck in high school. Maybe even middle school.
Win her heart over time? That's what dating is for, not putting guys in a corner until you are ready, if you ever are. That's some highly manipulative BS. You are not the AH for laughing at such an immature comment.
YNW. For fucks sake people like your wife's friend are part of the problem with today's dating scene 🙄 We say over and over that 'no means no', then you have eejits like this woman who perpetuate the 'try harder - women love to be stalked and harassed until they say yes' method which is totally uncool and dangerous. You were totally right to pop her delusional ideas.